Independent Film Making with Matt Brothers (Is Paul Dano OK? & Spocklight)

[00:00:14] Hello and welcome to Fandomentals, the podcast that explores pop culture one conversation

[00:00:19] at a time. I am your host, Harley. Every episode I interview different people from around

[00:00:25] the world to discuss a variety of topics within the world of pop culture. Thanks for joining

[00:00:30] me on this journey and I hope you enjoy the episode.

[00:00:41] Welcome back to another episode of the Fandomentals podcast, and this is the second

[00:00:46] episode in my mini season exploring independent filmmaking. In this episode I'm joined by

[00:00:52] a returning guest to the podcast, he is a co-host of the Spocklight podcast and is

[00:00:56] Paul Dano OK? It is of course Matt Brothers.

[00:01:02] Matt was good enough to come back onto the show and have a really interesting conversation

[00:01:05] with me about the process of making independent films. Matt has had quite a lot of experience

[00:01:12] working in the film industry and shares some fascinating insights into what it's like getting

[00:01:16] your films made here in the UK. We talk about taking them to festivals, what it's

[00:01:22] like to work with a small crew, working with different artists and so much more.

[00:01:27] It's a really fascinating conversation. I absolutely love having Matt back on the

[00:01:31] show. He's a delight to talk to as you will hear in this episode. I have of course

[00:01:36] left links in the show notes where you can find out more about his films and his

[00:01:39] podcast, which you should definitely check out. So with all that said, let's just get to it.

[00:01:45] This is independent filmmaking with Matt Brothers.

[00:01:59] Hello, Matt and welcome back to the Fandomentals podcast.

[00:02:02] Hello, Harley. Wonderful to be here. Thanks for having me back again.

[00:02:06] I know it's almost a year actually, I think to the day since we last spoke.

[00:02:10] Oh my god.

[00:02:13] This always happens whenever I have like, you know, guests who come on multiple times

[00:02:17] on my other shows. It's like, yeah, wow, this is like the third or fourth time you've been here,

[00:02:20] but it's been over a year since we last had you on. It feels like yesterday.

[00:02:24] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But yeah, it's nice to have you on, especially in this

[00:02:30] occasion, I'll talk about something that I was reflecting on this earlier. So I've spoken to

[00:02:35] Matt a number of times about things within film that you're clearly very passionate about.

[00:02:40] Obviously anyone that knows you and your podcasting work will definitely be familiar

[00:02:44] with, but I'm really interested to sort of talk about film and from a creative point of view,

[00:02:49] your own perspective. So to kick us off with that, I really wanted to know,

[00:02:54] I want to go back to your origins. What was that film that you watched that kind of

[00:02:57] got you interested in the idea of making a film? Because it feels like that's something

[00:03:01] very special to kind of tick a box in your brain and say, yeah, I want to do that.

[00:03:05] The origin stories. It's interesting. I think in terms of like getting into film,

[00:03:11] as someone who was born in 86, it kind of hits a lot of the usual touchstones like your dress

[00:03:17] it part coming out. Although ironically, even though I was kind of would have been old enough

[00:03:23] to have seen that in cinema, I would have been seven. I missed it and I had some friends,

[00:03:27] including a couple of friends who are younger than me managed to see it. I was like, ah,

[00:03:31] but then my mum got for me on video when it came out, that kind of changed everything.

[00:03:34] And then we did see The Lost World in the cinema when it was out. So there's all these

[00:03:39] kind of things. And then once it kind of hits the sort of early 2000s, myself and

[00:03:47] co-host from Spotlight Paul, who I kind of grew up with and went to school with,

[00:03:52] who they're very much responsible for getting me into film in the grander scheme of things.

[00:03:57] Because around this time, this is the sort of birth of DVD as a piece of tech really.

[00:04:05] And Paul was extremely on the up with that. And they were very good at getting a lot of

[00:04:12] new and fun stuff in. So I think I slowly started to see a lot of stuff through Paul,

[00:04:17] through DVD in this kind of end of school era. And then we started making stuff as early as

[00:04:25] 2002. The very first film we kind of made was a very silly knockabout kind of horror thing

[00:04:33] when we were both like 16 turning 17 on Paul's digital stills camera that could hold about

[00:04:42] 90 seconds of moving image before you had to run downstairs and unload the card.

[00:04:47] So even at this point, we're making stuff. So I'm trying to think of something that

[00:04:51] kind of inspired me to make things. It's really only when it gets a little further

[00:04:55] kind of into college and further into uni. And so in terms of actual ones that really

[00:05:02] make an impact, there were definitely ones before this. But I remember seeing Brick,

[00:05:06] Rian Johnson's first film. Oh yeah. And just being, I mean at this point,

[00:05:11] I'm like halfway through uni at this point, so there must have been other ones.

[00:05:14] I mean everything from kind of Ghostbusters and Gremlins and Bill and Ted and all these

[00:05:19] and Planes, Trains and Norton Bill's which remains one of my favourites.

[00:05:22] And it's around this time kind of finding films that are mixing tones and messages

[00:05:27] really well that made me think, oh you can be a comedy and be really full of pathos and make

[00:05:35] you cry at the end like Planes, Trains always does. And animated films always a big source

[00:05:39] of inspiration. Like Toy Story remains still that first one has like the one of the most

[00:05:47] perfect scripts in existence I think. You watch that film as well and as much as the animation

[00:05:54] continues to date, there's something incredibly timeless about it. And at a 77 minute film,

[00:05:58] it's absolutely whip tight and perfect. But something about Brick when it came along was

[00:06:03] like, oh this is somebody doing something where it's a high school movie but it's a

[00:06:09] detective noir and it's just this blending of kind of eras and tones that was very

[00:06:14] fascinating. All the more so because at the time the film that me, Paul and some other

[00:06:20] friends including Liam, the other spotlight co-hosts had made in college was essentially

[00:06:26] a Brick type film done technically before I think we would have been shooting at the same time

[00:06:32] in 2004. It was like a 21 Jump Street style thing of a college set story of somebody out

[00:06:39] there is setting off all the fire alarms and the principal is at his wits end so he calls

[00:06:44] in this detective who looks suspiciously like a student's age because he was to kind of root

[00:06:51] out this culprit who's doing it. And it became this massive college side project of ours. We

[00:06:57] shot every week for about seven or eight weeks and it ended up being like a 50 minute long

[00:07:01] short kind of thing so it was almost feature length and it shot all over the

[00:07:07] Brocklehurst College and the surrounding countryside area where we went to college.

[00:07:10] So it had like I don't know some production value but that was one where we were kind of

[00:07:16] doing a brick around the same time that brick was happening so when I saw Brick come about

[00:07:19] and have its big kind of Sundance launch and boost and obviously put Rian Johnson on the map

[00:07:25] I was like oh here's someone else who's kind of like tapping into different sides of things.

[00:07:29] Yeah I think it's quite inspiring when you see somebody put something out like that because

[00:07:34] I think the idea of film right to most people it seems almost inaccessible in terms of like

[00:07:39] how do you create a thing. I've been talking a lot about songwriting it's like that's you can

[00:07:45] kind of make a very straight line of like I pick up an instrument, I write a song,

[00:07:49] you know I learn how music works whereas making a film you're like oh god there

[00:07:53] are so many moving pieces like what do I do first where do I begin? So I always admire

[00:07:59] anybody who tries that out for themselves and has the vision and the guts to be like yeah

[00:08:04] I'm just gonna do it and something I want to sort of tap into and it just sprung to me

[00:08:08] there as you were talking about your friends working at college. I believe that the nature

[00:08:13] of filmmaking is very collaborative right? Like it requires a lot of moving pieces so I imagine

[00:08:19] doing something like making a film with your friends at college I imagine is a very good

[00:08:23] way of like learning those skills but in a very non-pressured environment. Yeah and it's

[00:08:29] always really fun as well and I think there's a reason why you hear from a lot of established

[00:08:33] filmmakers in interviews say like oh yeah I've been making films since I was eight and when

[00:08:37] I picked up a you know video camera at a young age and did stuff for friends and the whole you

[00:08:42] know Sam Raimi approach and everything and it's like an Edgar Wright as well doing it from very

[00:08:47] young and it makes sense because it kind of it is fun and it is at that age you are just kind

[00:08:52] of chasing your inspirations and trying to literally just put do your own version of the

[00:08:57] stuff you're liking. You haven't really got your own kind of voice yet and it is extremely

[00:09:02] collaborative and I think what's interesting is the different you know where we are now compared

[00:09:06] to where we were back in 2003 2004 it's like now it's even more in an age when you could

[00:09:13] potentially do stuff yourself like I think all these you know all these influencer types

[00:09:18] doing little little shorts on their Instagram and stuff like they are mini movies in a sense

[00:09:22] some of these and it's like right you know the amount you can technically do with just

[00:09:26] your phone now is kind of amazing and try not to sound too old man shout at clown about it

[00:09:31] it's like in the college age it was like we had dv tape cameras which you know

[00:09:38] which was an upgrade from Paul Still's camera that could hold about 90 seconds of footage

[00:09:43] and so we had you know physical tapes we were having to like put onto the machines and

[00:09:48] and the editing software I mean it was still adobe premiere pro back then but god knows

[00:09:52] what version and the computer the college had was like a steam engine so there was

[00:09:57] I mean you know that firebell film we did I was sort of co-editor on that as well and

[00:10:03] you know there's a couple of scary days where I think the whole thing was just crashing and

[00:10:06] it's like we just lost the entire entire thing so again you know tech innovations in

[00:10:10] terms of editing and just upload times and all the kind of boring stuff like that makes it

[00:10:14] a lot easier as well but and then it's like yeah you if you're not kind of doing it with

[00:10:19] friends it's like you know it's it's a lot of work to be doing something so you may as

[00:10:24] well be having fun with it absolutely and what did you do with the film in the end did you like

[00:10:28] show it in a class yeah I think we showed it in class we showed it in a bunch of friends

[00:10:32] afterwards and then we did we did a few more in the intervening years kind of in the summers

[00:10:36] between uni years as well which all ended up being quite epic quote unquote short films that

[00:10:41] were pushing an hour long and stuff and and uh and yeah they're very of the time but we

[00:10:47] were very much like doing the the local tours of like anytime we had some friends over we

[00:10:52] put it on and that's about as far as it got you know yeah and that kind of led into like

[00:10:59] yeah my own uni times with with studying script writing itself so that's kind of where where I

[00:11:03] went after that awesome awesome so yeah so I never asked you this but what did you study

[00:11:09] at uni was it film related yeah so it was script writing for film and tv right at Bournemouth

[00:11:16] uni which is uh down from where i'm from as well yeah and uh I think it's pretty good

[00:11:21] there I think at the time it was definitely one of the only places that kind of did it as well

[00:11:24] there were there fewer options back then as well and I think this is the way a lot of people

[00:11:29] find as soon as you graduate somewhere and finish it gets uh 10 times better the second

[00:11:35] you leave like we um right you know we were having to sit out on these uh like cafe benches

[00:11:42] in the wind and the rain and like write on notepads and stuff and then in our third year

[00:11:46] they opened this brand new writer's room which was specifically for us on that course had little

[00:11:52] keypad lock on the door you got in there and it had whiteboards and macs and all sorts were like

[00:11:56] oh where was this so yeah and I'm pretty sure by now they've they've integrated linking up with

[00:12:02] the other departments and other courses a lot more because we only had one or two things that

[00:12:07] utilize the tv production students that were also you know in the building with us as well so

[00:12:13] yeah nice okay yeah I think learning that skill then would have been really helpful in terms of

[00:12:18] knowing how to make a short film right because kind of obvious but writing is the start you

[00:12:24] need a script you need a concept yeah someone to flesh it out so I think it was important for

[00:12:29] you to understand the language of that then yeah writing kind of became like my my

[00:12:34] my obsession and my focus and where I kind of wanted to go with things and it still is to

[00:12:39] this day but you know you know this is caveat as somebody like me talking I've always felt

[00:12:44] like a big imposter syndrome at the most for the most part you know I've been doing this

[00:12:48] nearly sort of 20 years and it's you know I'm still not making my living off it and

[00:12:52] everything but I've been around the block and I've done a bunch of different things

[00:12:55] and I'm still kind of pushing away and it always ebbs and flows as well and so it's

[00:13:00] never a straight line and everything is always just your own experiences and learning from what

[00:13:05] you can as it goes along but yeah writing definitely became sort of the main focus

[00:13:10] more than like the filmmaking the filmmaking at that time was definitely more of just a

[00:13:16] thing that we did as mates on our own little sort of silly projects and then I tried pushing

[00:13:20] forward with with the writing and then from that over the years as I've had more shorts

[00:13:25] be made it has been a bit of a mix again between me kind of farming out scripts to

[00:13:30] actual filmmakers to do with various sizes various kind of budgets behind them

[00:13:36] and then other ones that I've kind of circled back around and kind of directed myself and

[00:13:40] kind of tried to step back into that control chair just if for no other reason then to just

[00:13:45] make sure it gets done because you know when you're dealing with super small projects and

[00:13:48] you're asking a lot of a lot from people I was thinking you know what's the what's the

[00:13:52] least I can ask from people to get something physically made so there's been some good

[00:13:57] smaller stuff in the last few years I've been doing on the short side anyway and then some

[00:14:02] other ones that have been done by other people for more money and then as always the kind of

[00:14:07] feature writing element to it as well which I've been churning churning away for for quite

[00:14:11] a while. Wow yeah I was gonna say having a quick look at your IMDB I could see quite a

[00:14:16] few credits that I wasn't aware of before so no it's really cool and that sentence again

[00:14:22] again. Yeah it's very cool and the fact that yeah the vast majority of your credits so far

[00:14:28] from writing I think yeah it speaks to that obviously it's something that

[00:14:32] yeah you've you spent a lot of time working on and crafting. I'm curious what's it like

[00:14:37] writing for yourself versus writing for somebody else or do you have different approaches for

[00:14:42] that kind of thing? Yeah I mean it's only really recently I've kind of been

[00:14:46] writing for someone else but it's still very much a project of mine so everything else before

[00:14:52] the writing has always been for me and it's whether or not I make it or somebody else

[00:14:57] makes it at which point it becomes for something for somebody else. There's been a few

[00:15:02] projects where like you know I've had an idea and I've worked with them on scripts

[00:15:07] to get it from that stage so it's more collaborative in that sense and then other

[00:15:10] ones where I've had a draft of a thing and I tend to work around like horror and sci-fi

[00:15:16] and genre stuff because I find them right I find them really interesting and I find it

[00:15:19] gives a lot more leeway in independent short filmmaking. I always find nothing scarier than

[00:15:26] if you're trying to make either a straight drama or a straight comedy as like a small

[00:15:33] low budget filmmaker because you know if you go for full drama and you know your actors

[00:15:37] aren't quite there or you're not quite there and it doesn't quite land it can be really cringy.

[00:15:42] Same with comedy if like you know what you're putting out there just isn't funny it's not

[00:15:46] going to work but I find blending stuff with the more fantastical elements kind of gives it

[00:15:50] a bit of a bit of leeway to be a bit hokey if it's a horror or to be a bit kind of

[00:15:55] funny if it's something else and so that's always been an interesting angle as well

[00:16:00] but yeah I tend to yeah kick stuff about see who's interested and that's where the various

[00:16:07] different types of sort of collaboration after the fact comes in. But a lot of it wasn't a

[00:16:12] bubble it would be like you know I'd have these short scripts doing the rounds and

[00:16:16] maybe I'd put some in for like some competitions and get to the point of them getting

[00:16:20] like live read and critiqued and stuff and I had them win a few things and now already

[00:16:25] come close to getting some funding money for a few and then I'd kind of like meet various people

[00:16:30] and I think that's what it all comes down to you know as someone whose main perspective

[00:16:34] for the last sort of nearly 15 years has been someone who's London based as well obviously

[00:16:38] it has a big kind of hub of people and you slowly just get to meet different people through

[00:16:44] different means and what they're trying to do as well so I've been lucky enough to sort

[00:16:48] of collaborate with some great producers and people trying to get things together and some

[00:16:53] things have happened some things haven't and then it's always trying to see where to go next but

[00:16:58] yeah. Interesting, interesting. No I like that and I like this idea of like just

[00:17:05] being able to take something originally for yourself you know even if it ends up being

[00:17:10] passed along yeah I think that's very cool and I guess from that perspective as a writer

[00:17:15] then you're not going to be too precious about it right just like hey as long as it

[00:17:18] gets made it gets made. Yeah totally there were somewhere else like man I'm so attached

[00:17:23] to this I really want either for someone to do it exactly as I can see it which is never how it works

[00:17:28] or try and get enough money that you can do it yourself exactly how you want it to happen

[00:17:33] which also never works quite that way so I've seen a few things I've seen

[00:17:38] you know I've had people make stuff on like sort of on the quick or we've done a few like

[00:17:43] kind of short 48 hour festival type things as well and you kind of get what you get and

[00:17:47] then other ones where I had a horror short few years ago called Who Am I which was this long

[00:17:53] gestating kind of short script of mine which had everybody seemed to really dig and it came close

[00:17:59] a couple times and then at one point this director who I'd been sort of chatting with

[00:18:04] he was like oh I'm really down for doing this now but then he had to sort of bow out

[00:18:07] but he got somebody else in that he knew to do it and so we started chatting and it was

[00:18:12] just one of those cases where the elements and the timing has to align because this was

[00:18:16] like a short horror short gothic horror about a mum and daughter in a big kind of country house

[00:18:21] so I was like okay so location's key here and this director just happened to have like a DP who

[00:18:27] wanted to shoot something on film so that was amazing I was like cool and then also had

[00:18:32] access to this house for like a very short window of time which was kind of the perfect

[00:18:36] location so it's like great off you go and then you know those guys shot that wherever

[00:18:40] this house was and I wasn't around for any of the shoot and then they came back with

[00:18:45] something pretty great so there's been elements like that and then other ones where I'm a lot more

[00:18:49] kind of hands-on as well or other stuff that has always ticked along and then never quite

[00:18:57] got the push and the money it's needed and so there's a couple that I'm still like

[00:19:02] out of the old stuff anyway that I've got like I'd still love to see realized but then

[00:19:08] yeah shorts I always find are like they're great for sort of cutting your teeth and putting

[00:19:11] out ideas and if you can do one really quickly that's great as well some take years some take

[00:19:16] months you know and then it's all in service of trying to push forward with with features and

[00:19:21] I think with the feature stuff I just kind of pursued ideas of things that interested me and

[00:19:27] tried to do stuff with them after the fact and and at the moment now I'm working on some

[00:19:31] stuff you know that has people behind already so it's a lot more propulsive and hopefully

[00:19:37] possible yeah. Does that involve them working with other writers and other sort of creatives in that

[00:19:43] space? Yeah so the current thing really is you know this director and producer team the three

[00:19:49] of us together we actually got on the Edinburgh Talent Labs Edinburgh Film Festival Talent Lab

[00:19:55] Connects which was like an inaugural program back in 2019 which was kind of like a new version

[00:20:01] of their own talent lab that they do at the festival every year which for the normal labs it

[00:20:05] was like an individual thing so that individual people and filmmakers be on it whereas this

[00:20:10] talent lab connects was for projects so it would be teams of people coming in with a project

[00:20:16] specifically and so we we got onto that we're one of the six teams on that that year and we

[00:20:20] kind of developed this idea this feature for a while and then yeah then the pandemic kind

[00:20:25] of happened and I felt like either the pandemic kind of gave people a lot of space

[00:20:30] to get creative and right or it kind of sucked the ability out of you and for me it

[00:20:34] never really quite worked out and so I was tinkering around with this idea throughout that

[00:20:38] but we'd spent so long in like an outline stage I was almost like sort of tired of it and I kept

[00:20:44] changing stuff early on in the in the script and the story that kind of like forked it out

[00:20:48] into another direction there's a lot of rewriting going on couldn't quite nail it down

[00:20:52] and then stuff started appearing in cinemas and on stream and that was a bit similar to the

[00:20:57] idea or at least in the same sort of wheelhouse it was kind of a bit like oh maybe we've

[00:21:02] kind of missed the boat on this one but then we reconnected at the top end of last year developing

[00:21:08] a new idea of the directors that's very much in the style of her previous short films because

[00:21:13] she's she's a brilliant director and luckily all her previous shorts kind of feel of a piece

[00:21:19] from same one same person tonally and story wise and visually whereas all my shorts are

[00:21:25] kind of all over the place man it's like it's like you know on one end I've got this sci-fi

[00:21:29] film that was had about 10 to 15k behind it and then other ones have been done for nothing

[00:21:35] absolutely nothing so it was great to kind of like leap into that idea with those guys and

[00:21:39] that's what we're working on at the moment so this has been a continuing really great

[00:21:44] experience of collaboration in a new sense and also having a core idea that wasn't one

[00:21:50] of mine as well and just being able to be able to look at it and see all the cool

[00:21:53] things that were interesting about it and bring my own spin to it and and luckily you know

[00:21:57] those guys are both so busy at the moment I can kind of run with the ball a bit and get some

[00:22:02] because we've already done a draft already and we're kind of changing a few things so

[00:22:06] I can yeah go back and kind of like hash out the next stages myself and I'm looking forward

[00:22:10] to kind of getting back to when it's the three of us again pushing it forward and

[00:22:14] actually having that director and producer combo in the corner anyway so you know the

[00:22:20] person who's going to be making it and visualizing it the person who's just sitting

[00:22:23] there going like right what can I do to facilitate this process whilst I go and look at all these

[00:22:29] avenues for funding and festivals and sales agents and all the other stuff

[00:22:33] and locations and all sorts so that's really fun that's really fun but it's like yeah a

[00:22:37] lot of the other ones has just been get it together push it through put it into some

[00:22:43] competitions kick around people I know and having worked with Jason in the sort of industry

[00:22:49] this whole time as well it means you know I do have some pretty nice contacts or at least know

[00:22:53] where to kind of like go with things as well. Yeah I gather that's quite common in the industry

[00:23:00] right it's sort of like any industry really it's kind of it's who you know which kind of helps

[00:23:05] yeah yeah a bit of it's spoiled and you know I feel I feel very guilty at times that

[00:23:09] I haven't taken full advantage of it in ways that I could like I definitely have but like

[00:23:12] you know I worked for six years at an agency looking at scripts coming in and

[00:23:18] working with writers and directors at this agency so obviously I kind of had all these producers

[00:23:24] film and tv producers kind of on email and I was hearing from from meetings what they

[00:23:28] were looking for what's you know what's hot what's not for these companies I was like this

[00:23:32] is really great intel and then at the current job now at this sort of like you know

[00:23:37] film charity it's working and emailing a lot with current producers and line producers and

[00:23:41] production managers so it's again you know I've got those kind of good connects into people

[00:23:46] who are making stuff you know and and I think more than anything as well it's you know for

[00:23:51] anybody out there trying to get stuff done you know networking events and online forums

[00:23:55] and stuff like there's all sorts of various avenues that I'm sure I may be even finished

[00:24:01] and there's new ones cropping up now that I'm just too far behind on you know but there's

[00:24:05] so many opportunities to just meet people and get stuff together.

[00:24:10] Yeah yeah absolutely I mean you've got to make the opportunities right?

[00:24:15] Curious then in terms of yourself looking to make a feature film when you go sit down to

[00:24:21] write something like that I'm just I'm wondering sort of where you even begin or what kind of

[00:24:26] are you thinking about structure a lot is that something you're very conscious of going

[00:24:30] into it because I know nothing about writing so I'm yeah curious as to what your process

[00:24:35] is for that. I think there's certainly writers out there that are a lot more intuitive with

[00:24:38] with sort of you know the vibe of something or a natural ability to get it down on page and I

[00:24:44] think I've struggled with all sorts and I've kind of ebbed and flowed like I used to be really

[00:24:49] quick I used to be great at kind of just getting something down and fixing it later

[00:24:54] and then I went through a period where I just couldn't really do that and I think it's

[00:24:57] project to project but it was like am I trying to put this down as perfection you know

[00:25:05] as good as it can be out the gate which I knew in my head was a bit of a roadblock so it's finding

[00:25:11] is being able to be free of yourself to be like look whatever you put down at first it's

[00:25:16] going to be and it's meant to be and no one else can see it until you say so so don't worry

[00:25:21] about it but I think structurally or something I did always approach stuff with in the front

[00:25:27] of my mind like I think I was very good at kind of figuring out these entry points for

[00:25:31] stories and then kind of plotting it away as it goes along and I my concepts and my ideas were

[00:25:38] a very kind of what-if stories which I think you know again ties into the horror and sci-fi

[00:25:44] of it all like you know right yeah having these kind of you know I like to try and find

[00:25:49] ideas that stuff you've maybe seen but they're not from this angle or not from this character

[00:25:55] and I think give other ways in there and then oftentimes that would almost help it kind

[00:25:59] of write itself and then just I think the hardest thing for me has always been matching

[00:26:06] up just a base story concept and kind of structure and you know an idea for a beginning

[00:26:11] and how it can end with then you know the characters that are in it why we should reasons

[00:26:15] why we should care upping the stakes every possible chance and then making it all feel

[00:26:21] organic as well so one's not too leading the other one because I find those ones where you

[00:26:26] can think of an entire story and before you know it it's like oh who the characters are in this

[00:26:31] instance doesn't really matter I just need people to plot into this which is awful and

[00:26:36] then other ones where it's like oh this is really great character stuff but like what are

[00:26:40] they doing where am I going and sure I think ironically those the type of movies I really

[00:26:45] enjoy as well and I think it's because you can recognize the stuff that you think oh I can't

[00:26:50] do this like I can do this sort of thing but this stuff that I love maybe I can't

[00:26:55] um the ones that just feel so free flow and so baked into these characters and who they are and

[00:27:01] that's right down to the script level but also performance and filmmaking style as well so

[00:27:08] trying to find a good balance between that is always um a challenge but then there's

[00:27:13] good ones where it's like you know you get stuff down you feel really comfortable in it and

[00:27:18] then the redrafting process is kind of where it all happens and and people always say you

[00:27:23] know writing is rewriting and it's definitely true I think have as much fun as you can in

[00:27:27] the initial stage because nothing will really matter or be final um so have that pass where

[00:27:34] you just throw out all the ideas and don't worry about going too long or being too

[00:27:39] informal with it all just kind of get it all out there and uh I think it's the ones

[00:27:43] where I've tried to do the opposite of that and been like no no this must be this must go from

[00:27:48] this one pager to this outline to this script as as written as it goes as opposed to kind of

[00:27:54] finding your way and trying things out because I think you know they often they always say

[00:27:59] you know the first second or third ideas that you have just just have them and then throw

[00:28:05] them away and then go on to really sort of challenge yourself in finding other things

[00:28:10] and I think in terms of general writing advice you know someone saying um always you know

[00:28:15] throw your characters into the deep end as much as you can like as soon as they're feeling

[00:28:19] comfortable in any type of uh point what what could come along that could really

[00:28:24] upend them and make it hard for things to get back on track hard for you as a writer

[00:28:29] think think it up and hard for them to physically kind of get out of danger

[00:28:33] whether that's um you know real or figurative or or whatever yeah that makes sense

[00:28:41] because you want to keep an audience engaged right and guessing I find that sometimes you know

[00:28:47] when you watch a film and you can as an uneducated viewer you can just guess where it's going

[00:28:53] yeah from minute one you're like oh well I know this film because I've seen it a million

[00:28:58] times before you know this actor always plays this role so they're gonna go through this

[00:29:03] journey and then you're just you just kind of switch off yeah and you're not enjoying

[00:29:07] it whereas I kind of feel like yeah some of the better films I'm with you Matt at least in my

[00:29:11] opinion is yeah the ones where I'm like I have no idea you know I'm more intrigued of like

[00:29:17] I think I know where it's going you know but I'm kind of curious to what that's about I mean

[00:29:22] a very recent example because I just saw it this week was um I watched a Quiet Place day

[00:29:26] one yeah I'm obviously not gonna spoil it but the main protagonist it's not really a

[00:29:32] spoiler but the start of the film it's revealed that she's terminally ill and then of course

[00:29:38] you know where the film's going like the sad scenario that she's thrown into

[00:29:41] immediately I said I was chatting to my dad about it on the phone funny enough today I was

[00:29:45] like I just find that such an interesting setup because you're like right so I know

[00:29:49] where the character is going to end up but now I'm just I'm hooked into the journey

[00:29:55] thinking of like well how do they get there or what happens along the way and

[00:29:59] you know like it's simple things allow I suppose right you can do like you say you put a character

[00:30:02] in a situation like that and now you have a completely different perspective yeah that's a

[00:30:07] really interesting example of that actually of that film because yeah you're right you think

[00:30:12] if you're writing a not only like a horror sci-fi survival film but also a prequel so

[00:30:18] it's kind of like this is all happening before not that that really matters because

[00:30:22] there's no real crossing over characters apart from good old Jiwon Honsu who rocks up and is

[00:30:27] amazing yeah but your natural kind of inclination when thinking up a story and characters to go

[00:30:33] along with the kind of survival end of the world film is like how do they survive and what's at

[00:30:38] stake why do they want to and that film immediately subverts that a little bit by goes by going

[00:30:43] what if it's someone who kind of is just ready to die and just wants to go up town

[00:30:46] to get some pizza um you know what can what can they do in this situation then you are

[00:30:51] like oh this is flipped just enough i'm just like oh i don't know because either it's going

[00:30:57] to go the way you might expect which is oh if this character has nothing to lose they'll do

[00:31:01] a big sacrifice play or is it going to be something else and i think what the film does

[00:31:05] is really interesting so yeah exactly that kind of thing of like where are people

[00:31:10] expecting this to go what can i do to upend it and um and that is a hard thing because

[00:31:15] i've had i've had i'd feature ideas in the past where i think you get so in your head and

[00:31:19] it's just you on the and then the story in the page that you go oh yeah no one will see this

[00:31:24] coming and then i give it someone to read and they're like yeah on page eight i was like

[00:31:27] oh so this is happening and i was like what how did it's like was that just a lucky guess or

[00:31:33] was it that sort of badly telegraphed and then foiled yeah the tricky thing is to throw

[00:31:39] in the unexpected thing without it feeling like a betrayal of the character you've just

[00:31:43] created as well and who we've led to believe it's like yeah making it happen organically like

[00:31:48] you were saying yeah i think one of the best bit of writing advice i heard was the whole idea

[00:31:54] of like a three-act structure like narratively it makes a lot of sense but really you can

[00:31:58] break down to as many acts quote unquote as you want with the idea being that all the

[00:32:03] all an end of an act another at the beginning of another act kind of is

[00:32:07] is a clear choice and a change of circumstances a turning point basically so you know you can

[00:32:13] break it down into into load so i've kind of been doing a lot of my stuff on the sort of

[00:32:18] shakespearean five act structure and then sort of splitting that down into ten so there's two

[00:32:22] bits per each and i just make sure at the end of every part of the ten there's just a big

[00:32:28] no going back no going back no going back whether that's a literal thing that's happening

[00:32:32] or something within the character's mind and that does kind of open things up a bit for you

[00:32:37] and also helps you with that crucial thing of breaking down the beast you know because

[00:32:44] that's the other piece of screenwriting advice of like people go oh features so big how do

[00:32:48] you do it and it's like well you're not just doing one whole thing you know you're looking

[00:32:52] at in in pieces and then if you break yourself down to more pieces then it's a lot more

[00:32:56] manageable so you can be like okay yeah i'm only working on a part one out of ten today

[00:33:03] which in the grand scheme of things is only going to be like eight to twelve pages maybe

[00:33:07] which can tell this exact kind of part and then suddenly it's like yeah i can do that i can work

[00:33:10] on that and then do the next one so it's breaking it down into those digestible chunks like bbc

[00:33:17] bite size but it can also really help open up your story when you go like oh okay if

[00:33:25] if at the end of like act one of five is kind of you know the catalyst or the you know

[00:33:30] the call to action everything then it's like well what happens in that first bit is it just

[00:33:34] one little thing is the first part just set up of where we're at before things start

[00:33:39] and before decisions are made and things like this so and it's it's easier on some

[00:33:46] some films like i imagine something like a quiet place day one where you go okay this is

[00:33:49] pretty real time it's like we're going from a to b we have clear stakes don't make a noise

[00:33:55] you'll die we have clear kind of goals and limited characters so you can play with a lot

[00:34:00] and be quite free and another ones that are very very sprawling it's like these are the

[00:34:04] ones where i'm like i can't even begin to fathom how you kind of tell this kind of story in any

[00:34:10] kind of act structure and have it make sense in your own head you know but it's there for

[00:34:15] people watching it whether they know it or not and the ones that really work they feel it

[00:34:19] looking at you denny vilneuve yeah like i remember i think this was on a podcast years ago

[00:34:25] but um and you stanton who did funny nemo of course he's famously said he's famously

[00:34:30] said that that opening scene where um marlin's wife and nemo's mom is killed

[00:34:36] was originally like a mid-film flashback so you'd start the film yes just going why is

[00:34:42] this guy such an uptight dad he's a stuff and then oh we're holding off with the reveal

[00:34:47] as to why he's this way until the halfway point until you know the pixar brain trust was

[00:34:51] like no because no one's going to be on side with him for half the film if you put that up

[00:34:56] top just stop trying to be too fancy put it up top the audience will immediately understand why

[00:35:01] he is the way he is what's at stake why nemo is so important why him being lost is such

[00:35:06] a big deal for everybody and it's it's things like that where i think picking a point to

[00:35:13] start your story is often so hard and so crucial like i think a lot of script editors

[00:35:19] come along with whatever you have and the first thing will just be

[00:35:23] start it on page 18 why what's all this at the beginning we can gather a lot of the stuff

[00:35:29] through context but if you start here this is where the story actually begins so i think

[00:35:35] the first pass is always that opening i i thought up is this actually the opening

[00:35:41] of the film or am i just talking about yeah and i could say i gather with this

[00:35:47] as we're talking it's like a lot of creative processes it's not just one and done right

[00:35:53] like it's it's a lot of trial and error it's a lot of just figuring things out and seeing what

[00:35:58] bits fit on the day and i imagine yes as you alluded to earlier when you actually get to like

[00:36:03] rehearsing and filming and putting things in place you then start to see what actually works

[00:36:08] because am i right in thinking especially when you're writing a script so much of it is theory

[00:36:12] right like it's in your imagination of what it's going to look like but on the day it

[00:36:15] might be like actually that doesn't look quite right or yeah now we know this about the characters

[00:36:21] and the actors spent this time with them a director's got a feel for it they think maybe

[00:36:25] we should try this and i suppose then as a writer it's up to you to kind of be like

[00:36:28] okay we'll try it and not be too precious and just be like yeah okay we'll see we'll see what

[00:36:33] works yeah adapting on the fly it's like you know once you're actually getting down

[00:36:36] to physically making something then yeah you've suddenly got all the other aspects that come

[00:36:40] in like it could just be an actor doesn't want to do a thing or or they have an idea of how

[00:36:46] something could be said or it could be we just ran out of time like the amount of stuff that

[00:36:50] we've just lost for time that you'll lose stuff for not having the time to physically

[00:36:55] shoot it and then the edit you'll just get to stuff where you'd be like okay lose all

[00:36:58] of this for time and for pacing and um it's funny because you try and get a script to

[00:37:03] the point where you think in your head oh this is perfect this is super tight every single

[00:37:08] line of scene description dialogue in this entire script is necessary and then like you say

[00:37:14] you might get to set and just be like oh some someone said i can convey all this with a look

[00:37:18] with a with one action um and you know there's been a few occasions where like i co-wrote this

[00:37:25] um con artist drama um few years ago for a friend of mine who was directing we kind of

[00:37:30] worked on it together and and we had we we shot like most of the film in december one year

[00:37:37] and then kind of had to go back to location to do some reshoots because it was like we'd lost a lot

[00:37:42] of light by the end of that day and and it was raining a lot and a lot of it kind of wasn't

[00:37:47] usable so we had we're in the um unique unique situation at that point where we were

[00:37:53] able to edit as we went re-look at the script rewrite some stuff readjust to what we'd

[00:37:57] already half got in the can and then kind of come back in and like reshoot a lot of stuff

[00:38:01] and make some make some changes and and that's a rare occasion i think because you know normally

[00:38:07] stuff would be scheduled for like okay you got one day two days three days to get it all and on

[00:38:12] that it just so happened we're like yeah let's let's go back and then right and then you know

[00:38:16] i've kind of dabbled in all sorts of different shorts like one i did devil's dice which was

[00:38:20] very fun that's essentially like a fake horror trailer so yeah everything was written out

[00:38:26] but it was a fun example where it was like we're showing a fake trailer of a bigger film

[00:38:32] so we can just kind of jump in and just show random scenes out of context although the

[00:38:37] film itself kind of does play almost chronologically as a trailer anyway but it was

[00:38:41] like there was a whole like the one kind of exposition setting up of the plot scene that

[00:38:47] you would get in a trailer even that was kind of taking a bit too long in terms of if this

[00:38:53] is going to be a four-minute film i mean that's already too long for a trailer anyway

[00:38:56] so we're trying to like trim it back down so and it's finding these little moments in

[00:39:01] the edit that can be really satisfying because there was a whole bit where like a character

[00:39:04] says a bunch of stuff somebody cut in with some other stuff then the other character

[00:39:08] went back and said a bunch more other things and we just managed to cut it where like the

[00:39:12] character being told stuff just kind of goes like before he starts talking and then did say

[00:39:19] a bunch of stuff but we just cut it at that point and just went straight back to the

[00:39:21] other person who just carried on obliviously and it made for such a funny light little

[00:39:25] beat in that moment we're just like oh yeah yeah this person's just plowing through so it

[00:39:29] made the moment funnier and saved us about you know seven or eight seconds which was like

[00:39:34] every second counts at this point so yeah and then another stuff you know we did shoot and

[00:39:39] try we're like no this just doesn't kind of work so just drop it kind of thing and um

[00:39:44] yeah admittedly in that film there's a lot more leeway because it was just kind of a

[00:39:47] collection of like fun moments but even in like more tight narrative stuff you know you

[00:39:51] might just put something in be like oh this this works on the page but doesn't in real

[00:39:56] life for some reason yeah and i imagine that point that's kind of when your intuition kicks

[00:40:02] in right yeah it's kind of like that your gut instinct to feel like hmm yeah i'm just not

[00:40:07] not feeling this yeah this is where you know working with people whose like opinions you

[00:40:10] value as well and you're on the same page with is very important as well like ones you

[00:40:15] can get a real shorthand with and and i'm kind of like lucky in that like a lot of

[00:40:19] the stuff i've done has been with different sets of people all across the board really

[00:40:24] there's only one or two things where i've kind of kept people over whether that's because it is

[00:40:28] outside of filmmakers wanting to do a script of mine that i kind of leave them to it or i'm just

[00:40:32] finding various people as i go along and that's been that's been a really interesting learning

[00:40:37] curve as well but like yeah i think it's no surprise that when filmmakers especially go like

[00:40:42] oh yeah this dp in this editor we we get it and they get brought on to everything they

[00:40:47] do going forward it's like yeah i would do the same thing yeah because you know as we were

[00:40:53] saying earlier like it's an incredibly collaborative medium so yeah if you find something that works

[00:41:00] again to bring it back to music because i always do imagine it would be like being in a band and

[00:41:04] being like yeah this band we've really figured each other out we know what we're doing

[00:41:08] so for our next album we're just going to completely switch out the members you'd be

[00:41:11] going what why you want a grammy you're doing really well keep going you'd be like

[00:41:16] nah but you know obviously in film it's different i suppose in that it's a it's

[00:41:20] a gig economy right and you know like unless you get to the point of being like a rock star director

[00:41:27] i imagine it's it's quite difficult to have the power they're like no no i want that dp i want

[00:41:32] that editor i want you know so on and so on because they might turn around and be like

[00:41:36] well i've just been picked up for a series or yeah this person wants me to work for them and

[00:41:41] i need a paycheck sorry yeah it's amazing like i think about the people who do get to like work

[00:41:53] together all the time and it's like yeah exactly like you were saying like i swear like

[00:41:59] wiz anderson's just had a new dp come in for some of his new stuff i think and something

[00:42:02] like that you think yeah that's that seems like a partnership him and his dp for his

[00:42:07] entire visual style so to kind of like you know work on that yeah who can get that much tweed

[00:42:12] on a screen yeah oh that's cool i like that um yeah so i'd imagine again like this the process

[00:42:22] of trying to find people like that it just goes back to what you were saying earlier of

[00:42:26] just networking meeting people trying stuff out and i would also imagine that it would

[00:42:32] be quite an instinctive thing if you figure that you don't work well together right like

[00:42:38] if yeah if you've got an idea and you're bouncing off somebody and it's just not clicking i imagine

[00:42:44] again like most creative things there's quite an instinctive part of you there that you can kick

[00:42:47] in and go yeah this we're not eye to eye on this yeah i think i think if you try stuff and

[00:42:52] you get far long enough to be making something but you both kind of have that feeling you

[00:42:56] both just kind of go your separate way that does already bring up again really seems to be

[00:43:02] the way yeah but it's uh yeah it's fun like i like i said earlier i did the um some of those

[00:43:09] 48 hour film competitions and stuff and that they're a great way of of getting stuff made

[00:43:14] and hopefully finished but quickly as well and collaborating as well and i had i did three ages

[00:43:21] ago for the sci-fi um sci-fi london and it was like you know one that i just sort of

[00:43:26] purely wrote one that somebody the producer kind of brought in way too many cooks to try and

[00:43:31] do better than last year that was a bit of a mess and then like a third one where

[00:43:34] i just directed as well but it's the it was the first thing i'd kind of directed

[00:43:38] myself and we were upset against all sorts of challenges because you know time being the

[00:43:43] main one on these things but also there was there was a fire involved and we lost loads of

[00:43:47] time and it was all just a bit chaotic but like they're really good kind of like

[00:43:53] learning curve things as well i think for getting stuff out there um yeah of course you

[00:43:58] know if you can get as far enough as actually having you know production managers and producers

[00:44:04] and people and aid you know first a ds people who can schedule stuff and specific people in

[00:44:09] the crew um you know it sounds really basic but it's like you can get a lot of stuff done

[00:44:14] without it as i have been doing recently as well but when that comes along my god yeah it

[00:44:18] does make a difference yeah i imagine efficiency more than anything right if you actually have a

[00:44:24] production behind you then yeah you can get things done a lot quicker and

[00:44:28] i imagine even just things like equipment just simply having people around that can move things

[00:44:32] yeah a to b and not having to do it all yourself that would probably save a tremendous

[00:44:37] amount of time and they can set things up properly and whereas if you're doing it

[00:44:41] yourself you're like well now i've got to learn how to light something yeah i've got to learn

[00:44:44] where to put a boom mic properly and whereas if you've got a crew you can just be like

[00:44:49] yeah you're like brilliant on the go i mean we've kind of winged it on you know the last couple

[00:44:54] of really short shorts which are deliberately just like let's trim this all the way back but

[00:44:58] it's exactly that it's because this collaborator of mine is an editor as his day job so has all

[00:45:05] of that gear and then you know he got himself some some camera stuff so i'm like look if we

[00:45:09] can physically shoot something and edit it we can in theory do everything needed to end up with

[00:45:15] something semi-finished so you know we were just filling in the other gaps as it went you know

[00:45:19] like composer and and actors obviously but i was like oh yeah let me just let me let's push

[00:45:24] these through to try and like try some things out yeah yeah absolutely so i wanted to talk just

[00:45:31] a little bit about your last short uh petals which i stumbled across on your twitter and

[00:45:38] oh yeah i thought it was really fun i thought it was really fun and it's just interesting as

[00:45:42] well because this kind of falls into the wheelhouse of comedy which as you mentioned

[00:45:47] earlier is something that is yeah scary so i'm curious sort of how that came about and

[00:45:54] just walk me through that so that one i think it was just very concept based again you know

[00:45:58] it does still have its sort of one toe in in fantasy you know it's about this woman who's

[00:46:03] been recently kind of broken up with who uh is is soul king in the park and then she sees a

[00:46:08] chap walking along she has an eye on and then uh yeah raises up this flower and does the he

[00:46:12] loves me he loves me not thing with the petals and on every he loves me he's like in a love

[00:46:16] trance like running towards her but she has to get through the whole flower so with every

[00:46:19] he loves me not he's broken out of it and so with that as a general idea my kind of vein

[00:46:25] with this which i think you know is maybe only half successful because it's very hard

[00:46:28] to translate to live action is to do that sort of live action pixar short cartoon style

[00:46:33] comedy but in live action where it's you know all dialogue free apart from the he loves me's

[00:46:40] and just to really amp up the speed and the cutting and the mania of it all

[00:46:44] and yeah we had wonderful actor simon mader in as the guy who's you know like a trained

[00:46:49] kind of clown and he does wonderful theater stuff as well and so he could very much have

[00:46:53] that physicality um and yeah it was meant to be essentially this silent comedy with this

[00:47:02] slapstick cartoonishness inherentness to it and then also a bit of a bit of darkness as well

[00:47:08] which you know i don't know how much that comes across or whether we could have gone further

[00:47:12] but it was meant to be like oh isn't this kind of whimsical and then at a certain point

[00:47:15] it starts getting dark like he breaks his ankle and he's having to like drag himself

[00:47:18] over to her and it's like oh no the power she's gone mad with power like how far is

[00:47:22] she going to take this right up until the end and i think you leave somebody you have

[00:47:26] this escalation in shorts and i think you know the shorter the better really and this

[00:47:30] this is like four or five minutes i think of just escalating escalating escalating and then

[00:47:35] leaving leading up to one big kind of question is it going to go this way this way and then

[00:47:40] you kind of deliver it and then you're out and i think that's a really kind of tight

[00:47:45] way of of writing and making shorts and i think you feel it when you watch it like

[00:47:49] it feels hopefully feels short and sweet whereas certain shorts and i've watched

[00:47:55] many many shorts through it for you know being at my old job and being at going to various film

[00:48:01] festivals and stuff and there's so many great shorts out there but then there's the ones where

[00:48:06] within like 20 seconds you're going has this been 20 seconds or two minutes like how long is

[00:48:11] this like you can't lose track of time so i try and not overstay my welcome but it's

[00:48:16] funny so that kind of was the impetus between that which was deliberately trying something new

[00:48:21] but even that goes to show the difficulties of no budget independent filmmaking because all that is

[00:48:28] is a crew of two and a cast of two there's only four of us there on the day i'm doubling up as

[00:48:33] sound guy for what it for you know for what the sound was worth in terms of just the

[00:48:39] ambience i guess um marty my my editor and dp was doing the camera and everything else we

[00:48:45] shot on a very sunny day so there was no lighting to be spoken of really so we kept it really small

[00:48:51] but even that took some many setbacks so i tried to do it um legitimately at first uh in

[00:48:58] in trying to find a location in a park near me in north london and then inquired about it and

[00:49:05] they said you know because this technically isn't a student film or a charity film we've got to

[00:49:09] charge you like the normal rates which was like a thousand for a day or something for a

[00:49:13] public park and i was like well wow there's only we're less bothered than a group of kids

[00:49:17] playing football like what you're talking about so then we had to kind of had to look somewhere

[00:49:21] else so i was like oh if i rock up now after i've told them about it and when we're doing it

[00:49:25] and we had these other options that were coming and going and then i just found this other

[00:49:29] park they were like look there's this perfect little area it's kind of behind a bit of a

[00:49:32] stream so there's no reason for anybody to walk in past and there's actually like a little

[00:49:38] tarmac path that goes nowhere it just kind of turns and goes into the stream like it just

[00:49:42] kind of dips off to nothing so that really worked well for a character who's walking along

[00:49:46] the path towards the end because i was like well no one else will be on it so we were just

[00:49:49] going to like rock up and do it but then had people getting covid last minute because

[00:49:55] this was around 2020 uh one we started trying to do it and then people kept getting covid and

[00:50:03] scheduling conflicts and this is only for four people like i don't know how anything bigger

[00:50:07] does it and then it was like well now it's october we've kind of lost the light because

[00:50:11] it's very much meant to be a springtime kind of movie so we just pushed it to the following year

[00:50:16] had like an actor change and then finally kind of got it got it shot in like a day um and

[00:50:22] luck got lucky with the weather um at which point it was it was fine it was just okay pretty

[00:50:27] simple edit job and um getting somebody to do the music but i just went to you know even

[00:50:33] that was not shy of its problems in terms of in terms of physically getting something together

[00:50:40] but um yeah no it's a fun one yeah i said i genuinely really enjoyed it i thought was really

[00:50:47] a really good concept very well executed and it's just interesting that you talk about just the

[00:50:52] amount of work that goes into something like that because i think it could be very easy to

[00:50:55] watch something like that on youtube be like oh that's a bit of fun i bet that was simple

[00:51:00] enough to do like just one setting it's like you said a handful of people but yeah

[00:51:06] that much work to to make something happen yeah definitely very interesting very challenging

[00:51:12] to get together but you know a lot of a lot of these i don't think no i don't think i ever

[00:51:16] so it did screen at a festival petals did but it wasn't one i was able to go to but you

[00:51:21] know a lot of these shorts that you know the best part is of course seeing of an audience

[00:51:26] and that's where i think you know my love for horror also is amplified because there's

[00:51:29] nothing better than seeing people in a big group watching horrors and a few of my previous

[00:51:34] horror shorts have played like fright fest in places and and getting to get into sit in

[00:51:39] yeah so who am i i mentioned earlier did play um at the prince charles as part of fright fest

[00:51:45] which was just amazing to have nice something screen in there and you know it's in a block

[00:51:49] of other great you know horror shorts and and you get a semi-full crowd you can kind of feel

[00:51:55] hopefully if it's working you can feel the people's silent tension over moments when it's

[00:52:00] meant to be that you know and i guess that's where it'd be horrifying for you if if nothing

[00:52:06] is landing and everyone's just like yeah whatever and laughing at stuff like oh no but um again

[00:52:14] that's where previous previous horror film goblin which was my first one to play fright fest is

[00:52:20] very much it's kind of like petals by way of horror again you know it's this couple

[00:52:25] having an argument because uh yeah the girl comes home and finds the guy in a trashed house and he's

[00:52:31] claiming he's caught a goblin and trapped it in the wardrobe and she's like what are you talking

[00:52:34] about and so the film is that's the kind of setup but the film is really this examination

[00:52:39] of this couple's relationship and what's really going on but all building to the moment where

[00:52:44] he's kind of daring you know she's daring him to open the wardrobe and he eventually

[00:52:47] does so again it's leading somewhere you get the reveal and then boom you're out you know

[00:52:52] um so you get that moment of relief or laughter or terror whichever way you want to splice it

[00:53:00] nice i like it and all right in thinking then with doing things like that like taking it to

[00:53:05] a festival and having it as part of these sort of competitions does that sometimes open up the

[00:53:11] door then for somebody to perhaps pick it up and expand upon it because you do hear about

[00:53:15] that sometimes yeah yeah start life as short films and then somebody goes oh could you do

[00:53:21] more of that yeah that's i mean that's the smartest thing to do to either do a short that's

[00:53:25] a proof of concept for a longer project whether it's like a standalone scene from a bigger script

[00:53:31] or like a sort of yeah taster mini sort of version of the story um and it's great to have

[00:53:38] that because you can go along and have a kind of pitch doc or maybe even a script for what

[00:53:42] the bigger thing is and that is how a lot of people generate interest because then the short

[00:53:46] can live on its own but it's it's doing its thing in in raising awareness for a for a

[00:53:50] bigger thing but then that's not to kind of minimalize the the joy in the art of the short

[00:53:57] film as its own art form as well which i think a lot of people overlook i think there's probably

[00:54:00] people out there who just do shorts as proof of concept for bigger stuff and it's like

[00:54:04] yeah i understand this is the way they kind of move forward but there's making shorts for

[00:54:08] the love of making shorts as well but um yeah getting stuff like festivals and it's

[00:54:14] number one it's just to get a chance to have people to see it i think as well and then if

[00:54:18] you get into conversations afterwards i mean you know most of the stuff i've done has been kind of

[00:54:23] silly and knock about so i have fun chats afterwards but you know i'd love to do something

[00:54:27] that's a bit more serious or has something kind of going on to get those kind of conversations

[00:54:32] where people could come up and say oh this actually really affected me because of these

[00:54:35] reasons in my life and stuff and i think getting getting that one-to-one connection with

[00:54:41] just one audience member is is what makes it all worthwhile like i've known friends who

[00:54:46] are filmmakers as well who have had that where they've been like oh i put this film out and

[00:54:50] there wasn't many people there but this one person came up afterwards and said oh this you

[00:54:54] know i don't know you i didn't know this film but this spoke directly to me for these reasons

[00:54:57] and i think that's you know the power of film um yeah as a whole as a whole reason for

[00:55:05] doing things but um but yeah the festival side it's uh it's tough because you know even if

[00:55:10] you can make a film for next to nothing like we did with petals you know festival submission

[00:55:15] cycle is always a bit of a nightmare and it's always very pricey you know you've got stuff like

[00:55:19] film freeway which is a wonderful resource for applying for stuff and getting stuff in and

[00:55:24] seeing when the early bird deadlines are and it's all in one place but unless you can find

[00:55:29] the ones that are for free or you know you get codes for whatever it's it's that's where

[00:55:34] you have to have earmarked a lot of budget for really and i think a lot of people's

[00:55:39] uh kickstarters and stuff you know it's quite rightly going yeah we want to try and if we do

[00:55:45] have a crew we want to try and pay them and also maybe there's some tech higher cost but

[00:55:50] then at the bottom of the pie chart will be yeah a couple hundred if not more for

[00:55:57] festival submissions because um if you get something done and then you can't really get

[00:56:02] it anywhere maybe you just want to stick it straight online and then that could take off as

[00:56:06] well and there's lots of great online resources that attract people like um lab rat the sci-fi

[00:56:12] film we did got kind of bought by um uh dust which is um uh you know sci-fi short hub on

[00:56:21] youtube that has tons of subscribers and stuff so it went up on there and got quite a lot of

[00:56:27] you know the most views of anything of mine up on there um nice and there's places like

[00:56:33] short of the week as well so yeah lots of great you know vimeo pics as well um so lots of great

[00:56:38] outlets online but yeah if you want to get stuff around the festivals and and you do get these

[00:56:42] little uh success stories as well like this producer i've worked with um and known for a

[00:56:48] while she was part of um good boy the short film that ben wishaw's in that oh yeah ended

[00:56:54] up you know if it plays at the right festivals that are oscar and bafta qualifying it can

[00:56:58] then keep going and and that one got as far as to the oscar long list so um wow i remember yeah

[00:57:06] she was very very close to being an oscar nominated short producer at that point so

[00:57:11] so yeah so anything can really happen and there's a great story um oh it's just come

[00:57:16] to my mind so i probably won't remember the name but there's uh an irish filmmaker who

[00:57:21] won the oscar for live action short um and his story because i saw him give a talk at the render

[00:57:28] festival in belfast earlier this year and it was it was amazing how it was just like look we

[00:57:32] made this one short which was this very small one that did this and then we we got onto the

[00:57:37] second one which then went to there to then and that became the oscar winner and it's like

[00:57:42] you know boom two shorts in through through through luck obviously and and obviously a lot

[00:57:47] of talent and having the right kind of vision of what to do with each short so

[00:57:52] and that was someone who you know himself admittedly didn't have much of a filmmaking

[00:57:56] background up until attempting that first short so it's quite um it's quite amazing wow

[00:58:01] that is i'm going to assume that it's the film uh an irish goodbye yes yeah tom burkely

[00:58:08] and ross white yes ross white he was the chap there um yeah he did he did a little

[00:58:13] short i can't remember if it was the one before or after an irish goodbye which had david bradley in

[00:58:19] from uh game of thrones and um harry potter and all of those so roy that was called yes he's

[00:58:25] he's an old chap yes david bradley there is an old chap who like i think accidentally rings up

[00:58:30] like a phone sex line and is confused as to who it is and it's like him and this kind of

[00:58:35] phone sex work are getting into real deep conversations so just a real great little

[00:58:39] chamber piece of a short wow yeah i'll let you say just you never know i suppose where these

[00:58:46] things can go just one after the other yeah and then just trying to like you know

[00:58:51] up up it for the next one keep the people along who you're getting on with as we said

[00:58:55] and hopefully try and get some more money for the next one and go bigger and then

[00:58:59] go bigger go bigger um yeah i think especially in the uk as well because there's so few

[00:59:05] filmmaking opportunities really it's like it's either you're just making features off your own

[00:59:10] back or it's very low budget stuff or you happen to get very lucky i think the the path

[00:59:16] through is often through tv still um okay and the whole tv avenue is is still its own thing

[00:59:22] as well but i've seen you know some i went to uni with who did the same writing course

[00:59:25] as me who has since been directing tv um for a while there's people like uh kate heron who

[00:59:33] was just a you know a london filmmaker had some shorts at fright fest as well and then

[00:59:37] went on to sex education and later lowkey so i think there's there's definitely a clear

[00:59:43] trajectory for people who are getting on to doing some episodes in a block of some kind of

[00:59:49] show and then maybe getting on and doing an entire block of a show and then maybe from there

[00:59:53] to a movie um and on the other side something you consider doing or uh i don't know i think

[00:59:58] if i was pursuing directing like more than writing sure yeah i think because that's where

[01:00:03] the actual physical work is like paid work in the uk it's you know it's it's commercials

[01:00:07] and music vids and stuff and and and tv because no one's really paying you to make a film unless

[01:00:13] it's something that's been financed through the ground up for the people wanting to make

[01:00:18] it you know because there's really not much of a kind of studio system here in the same way um

[01:00:25] yeah yeah okay okay so yeah in terms of yourself then yeah it's it's writing it's

[01:00:32] it's sort of focusing on those smaller films as more independent ones i do find that interesting

[01:00:37] that we don't really have much of an industry here for that you know what i mean because

[01:00:41] considering how much stuff is filmed here in the uk i just find that fascinating i wonder

[01:00:47] why that's not been established you hear from a lot of great creatives who are british who

[01:00:50] just you know went and found success in the states and it was funny with that recent-ish

[01:00:56] sort of torii campaign of of wanting to highlight all the best of british stuff and

[01:01:00] they threw christopher nolan on a poster and it's like yeah technically he is but he didn't get you

[01:01:07] know he couldn't do anything in this country with his filmmaking so he went to america as

[01:01:10] soon as he could and then became this big hit and so many are like that like i don't know

[01:01:15] many homegrown british talent making the sort of genre mainstream films that sell you

[01:01:23] obviously get people like you might loach might loach might lee and ken loach who

[01:01:30] genres onto themselves almost and other people who have been able to have a career in filmmaking

[01:01:36] in the uk specifically all this time but it's it does feel very few and far between and if

[01:01:42] you were someone who's just like look i just want to make cool horrors or cool sci-fis or

[01:01:48] stuff that you know should make money and blockbusters like we don't really have the

[01:01:52] ability to kind of fund that stuff here it's when it's when you see stuff like

[01:01:57] like sunshine that we talked about recently being such a rare occasion of like oh this is

[01:02:02] like a expensive looking sci-fi from uk uk hubs and financing and stuff and it's like

[01:02:10] this stuff sells and makes money i think i think we should be doing more of it but it's

[01:02:14] it's where that comes from and when you've just got kind of you know uk national lottery funding

[01:02:19] that's got to be split however many ways to fund development on x amount of stuff

[01:02:25] there's nobody really thinking they're required amount of money to fully kind

[01:02:29] of finance something anything bigger than like i don't know a six or seven million

[01:02:34] pound project really yeah i mean you never know it may change but i just i just find

[01:02:40] that very interesting especially as you say given how much talent comes out of the country

[01:02:44] i think imagine for a lot of actors and directors if you said hey you can get the funding and you

[01:02:49] can film in your backyard most of them would jump at the chance you know but that's it's

[01:02:53] not there they're just going to move where the opportunities are yeah and then ironically

[01:02:56] they're probably coming back here to film stuff anyway because that's you know we do film

[01:03:00] most stuff in the uk which is which is great so we should use the facilities we have

[01:03:06] used the crew and the talent we have to be making our own bigger stuff that can

[01:03:11] it can not just be awards baity or you know right thematically you know message base

[01:03:17] you know inject that sort of stuff into your blockbusters sure you know bring back some of

[01:03:22] that style of filmmaking um that isn't just so mindless but in a way that oh this can

[01:03:27] sell to every territory and people have a fun time because it's got this star in and it's

[01:03:32] this easy to digest um concept yeah yeah i agree so what's on the horizon for you then sort of

[01:03:41] coming up i mean you've mentioned you're working with you know featured makers and

[01:03:45] sort of got your hand in that world at the minute yeah probably got a million other

[01:03:49] shorts ideas and things bouncing around but yeah what's what's on the cards yeah so it's

[01:03:53] definitely that feature that i'm writing at the moment so we're currently kind of hashing

[01:03:57] out a new outline i'll try and get to script on a bunch or most of that throughout the

[01:04:01] summer because yeah my director collaborator is currently on uh this other talent lab scheme

[01:04:07] for the nfts right now so the timing is really good because she's going to be making

[01:04:12] a short film on this program in october they're shooting it so by the end of the

[01:04:17] year she'll have like a brand new short which is always you know you're always kind of as

[01:04:21] good as your last thing so if your last thing is really new that that bodes well

[01:04:26] so if she can come out of that with that short plus you know this script that i'll be writing

[01:04:31] plus you know the pitch for it and everything it's a really great position to be in we kind

[01:04:35] of already know where we want to film it and everything um so it's very very possible so

[01:04:39] we're definitely gonna push on that on the shorts front it's the first time in ages i

[01:04:43] don't really have anything kind of at least that i want to be doing there's like a couple

[01:04:48] of ones that got away that i'm still really proud of as as piece of the writing but

[01:04:53] are just either a little too big or unwieldy to kind of get off the ground at the moment

[01:04:58] but yeah i keep thinking up new little ideas that could be another sort of quick one and then

[01:05:04] getting distracted by something shiny and running running down the hall and inevitably come out with

[01:05:10] something else instead so if i can settle on one thing and try and you know make it work

[01:05:15] to your advantage so be like look you know what's if the summer's happening now

[01:05:21] you could hopefully maybe be getting something together in time for the winter so you know

[01:05:25] what's something where it doesn't need to be summer in a park where it can be all indoors

[01:05:30] or something so maybe there'll be something i have in the back pocket that suits that that

[01:05:34] kind of suits that time frame but um yeah i'd love to do another short again it's just

[01:05:39] um deciding but i think focusing on the feature right now should hopefully keep me focused

[01:05:44] but there's another couple of features i want to do for me again as well because it feels

[01:05:48] like i haven't done just a feature purely for me in years now and you know starting to think

[01:05:54] have i just completely lost it so i need to jump back in i think it doesn't always it doesn't hurt

[01:06:00] to have two different things going there was there was something i wrote ages ago that was

[01:06:03] just because i was so frustrated with one thing i jumped in and did that really quickly

[01:06:07] and it came out pretty well so um yeah sometimes i'm like oh i don't like to work

[01:06:12] on multiple things at once i like to kind of stay focused on things but inevitably once

[01:06:16] you kind of get in a rut on one thing your brain starts going oh but this new fresh idea that

[01:06:20] doesn't have problems yet i'm gonna go over to here so if i can find something that's kind of

[01:06:25] a bit polar opposite of the other one then maybe it'll be easier to bounce back and forth

[01:06:29] but um right yeah that's that's the aim it's i as a general with um my just like you know

[01:06:37] attention uh i think we're all suffering a bit from kind of like you know social media brain

[01:06:43] and post-pandemic inability to focus on one thing i think i can definitely feel the difference

[01:06:50] between yeah pre and post-pandemic stuff and just a general uptake in in screen time and

[01:06:56] the internet and everything so i'm trying to cut off from that every now and then and actually

[01:07:00] get back to kind of the way i used to be i think and pushing things through yeah nice

[01:07:06] well i look forward to seeing what you do matt yeah someone who follows your work anyway

[01:07:10] i'm sure i'll see what what comes up next and i just want to say thank you for giving me your

[01:07:15] time coming on and sharing your perspectives it's really appreciated yeah thanks so much this has

[01:07:19] been great again it's like you know this this show is the one where i can come on and

[01:07:23] ramble about things i don't get to otherwise so it's a lovely little welcome spa retreat

[01:07:29] for sure well that's one of the highest compliments i've been given i will take it

[01:07:33] thank you um so on that note where can the good people find you and the other things that

[01:07:38] you like to talk about on the internet yeah you can find me at matt brothers 2 on twitter

[01:07:43] so that's me um on there i still have pinned at the top of my twitter page the link to petals

[01:07:51] and other films like the devil's dice is out there somewhere on vimeo as well i believe

[01:07:58] and labrat you can find on youtube as well so a few of my things are dotted about

[01:08:01] um and then on the podcast front yes i co-host is paul deno okay which as of today at time of

[01:08:08] recording has just started releasing its uh ninth season which is lovely all a side season on

[01:08:15] the character actor hirayuki sanada and we have your wonderful good self coming on later

[01:08:19] in the season for sunshine i'm gonna try and uh cue this up so it comes out the same week

[01:08:25] oh perfect yes double bill double bill yeah um yes that's been a lot of fun we've got i think

[01:08:31] just the last two left to record but then we're all kind of in the bag uh and then yeah we'll

[01:08:36] be back today no further than next season a very smaller season to kind of just polish off

[01:08:42] what little he does have out that we haven't done yet um and then you can also find me on

[01:08:47] the spotlight podcast as well with liam and paul mentioned in this episode uh this is a

[01:08:52] star trek show for non-trekkies so we kind of cover all aspects of the star trek universe

[01:08:57] from the point of view of three people who are in various stages of trek fandom especially now

[01:09:01] after sort of eight years of doing it i was very new at the start i still feel pretty new

[01:09:06] now because my memory is terrible so um but we've recently probably by the time this is

[01:09:12] out we we went and caught the search for spock at the imax for its uh 40th anniversary

[01:09:18] release so we did a little sort of pre-game chat and then a post um discussion about that

[01:09:25] and uh yeah we've got lots of cool stuff coming up on spotlight that's at spotlight pod

[01:09:31] awesome i love it i'll make sure i put links in the show notes as always for all of that

[01:09:34] stuff so all i have to say is just thanks again for coming on matt thank you very much

[01:09:39] a massive thank you there to matt for coming back onto the podcast and sharing your journey

[01:09:44] as an independent filmmaker with me i really do appreciate it and of course to everyone listening

[01:09:50] do yourself a favor and go and check out matt's incredible work as i've said links are in the

[01:09:55] show notes so you can check out his latest film which was petals you can also check out his

[01:09:59] other work via twitter and imdb which i have left links in the show notes for you can

[01:10:04] also check out his wonderful podcasts spotlight and is poldano okay as he said is poldano

[01:10:11] okay is currently working on a very special season looking at the work of one hirayuki sonata

[01:10:17] and as we said in the episode matt and his co-host darryl were kind enough to have me

[01:10:21] on the show to talk about the absolutely fantastic and somewhat underrated sci-fi movie

[01:10:28] sunshine that is out this week you can check out links in the show notes where you can find

[01:10:33] that episode do yourself a favor and check out the podcast it really is spectacular and

[01:10:38] i'm not just saying that because they were kind enough to have me on the show but let's be honest

[01:10:43] it's an added bonus anyway thanks for the show notes as i said go give them a follow go

[01:10:47] and check them out on the socials all that good stuff you will not regret it thank you

[01:10:52] so much for listening to this episode if this is your very first time listening to fundamentals

[01:10:57] welcome aboard thank you so much for checking out this podcast and please make sure that you

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[01:12:27] am back next week with the final episode of this mini season looking at independent filmmaking

[01:12:32] followed up quickly by a very special series of episodes so make sure that you don't miss out

[01:12:38] until then have a great week and i'll meet you right back here for another episode on monday the 19th