Independent Film Making with Matthew Stogdon (Cheesemint & Sequelisers Podcast)

[00:00:49] And to kick us off, I have a returning guest to the podcast. He is an award-winning filmmaker, a film critic, and a film podcaster. It is of course, Matt Stogdon.

[00:01:00] Matt was good enough to return to the podcast and share his knowledge and experience of filmmaking.

[00:01:06] When I had the ideas of put this season together, he was one of the first people that I thought of. He is someone who is known for his knowledge and passion of films,

[00:01:15] and his work speaks for itself. It was an absolute delight to have Matt back on the podcast,

[00:01:20] and I learned a lot about what goes into making a film. As an independent filmmaker, there could be so many obstacles to overcome it.

[00:01:27] It can seem like such an insurmountable task. But in this conversation, there is so much wisdom and insight that Matt shares that,

[00:01:35] I think anyone who is listening to this, and is perhaps considering getting into independent filmmaking, they feel inspired to try it.

[00:01:42] I certainly felt that Matt was very objective about the obstacles you have to overcome in such an industry,

[00:01:47] but he is also very optimistic and passionate about people having their creative voice in this industry.

[00:01:55] I certainly enjoyed this conversation. We go all over the map as you can see it's a long episode, and there is plenty of good stuff to get into.

[00:02:03] So on that note, let's just get into it. This is independent filmmaking with Matt Stogdon.

[00:02:10] Hello, Matt, and welcome back to the Phantom Intals podcast. Hello, thank you for coming back.

[00:02:27] It's a pleasure mate. Three times now, you're in a very exclusive club.

[00:02:32] People who have done that, sir. Is it like SNL where you get a jacket if you do it five times?

[00:02:37] I was discussing badges with somebody. We need to match it, so I'm still in the works looking into that.

[00:02:43] I'm going to say you should, and it should start at three. I think that's a good number of stuff.

[00:02:48] I think so, right? Yeah.

[00:02:50] It's a factor club. Exactly. I like it. I like it. Yeah, it's just like the CEO again, make more than anything.

[00:02:57] Thank you for coming on to this series. You have to film making series. You're one of the first people I thought of what I was putting this together.

[00:03:03] Thank you.

[00:03:04] So I want to go right back to the start with yourself, and I want to know, what was the first film that you saw that kind of inspired you to get into filmmaking?

[00:03:13] I want to make you go, I want to do this. I want to try my best.

[00:03:18] I think I'm going to be that awkward guest and give you a long convoluted answer that isn't just,

[00:03:25] Oh, I saw Jurassic Park when I was nine and I thought, I could do that.

[00:03:30] I think it is a multi-layered and vested answer, unfortunately.

[00:03:36] Essentially grew up with a love for film, very much a passion for storytelling.

[00:03:42] And I think there'd always been a part of me that wanted to do that when I was 16 years old. I got my first video camera.

[00:03:50] And I could say like, oh, I wanted to, you know, watching clerks, for example, and it talks about how Kevin Smith did this on a load of credit cards.

[00:04:00] And it was very much all your friends, Muckin, to try and do this. He's actual workplace after hours coming.

[00:04:07] And that does make it enrich the same way he, Smith himself notes, link later and saying, I saw how he did this.

[00:04:15] Hang on, this is a big Hollywood book, I think you can just get a camera and make a movie.

[00:04:19] But that's I think a part of the thing that sort of spurs you on, but the initial drive to make a movie.

[00:04:27] I honestly might struggle to pin it down to one thing, a one specific movie.

[00:04:34] Because I say when you get, I had like obviously some code act disposable cameras and things that are that in the digital camera can through.

[00:04:42] But I wanted a video camera for the longest of time. And of course back in, when I was 16, it was literally the year 2000.

[00:04:51] Still very expensive.

[00:04:53] A PS2 was the cheapest DVD player you could get.

[00:04:58] So, you know, there were lots of technology was opening up a bit more, making it easier.

[00:05:05] But then even editing stuff was a nightmare. How do you edit something without a really powerful computer back then?

[00:05:10] So it's more about I actually edited on VHS as an edited on to over just from the camera itself.

[00:05:18] So I think the film in question or a handful of films that really maybe think I could do this or wanted to do this.

[00:05:28] Was, I think yeah, probably again, trying to net them to one thing specifically.

[00:05:36] Because it's a fantastic question and I wish I had a perfect answer for it.

[00:05:40] I think this is going to, okay.

[00:05:45] Austin, but recently gave an answer to this question when he was doing press tour for June 2 and he got shredded.

[00:05:53] He got reamed on social media for it.

[00:05:55] Even though what he was saying was allegedly perfect answer, which was what were your favorite films as a kid?

[00:06:00] Ah, good bird now, ugly.

[00:06:03] And then when, oh, f*** off, why aren't you saying like, you know, Lion King?

[00:06:06] It's like because good the bad now, it was on TV in America on the Sunday.

[00:06:10] It was a thing you could just watch and go, I can do that.

[00:06:14] And right, I think similarly for me, the answer sounds equally weirdly pretentious.

[00:06:20] And massively outside of my own lived experience.

[00:06:24] Boys in the hood.

[00:06:26] Oh wow, okay.

[00:06:28] Yeah.

[00:06:29] Now that is a swing on the swing.

[00:06:31] That is a swing, yeah.

[00:06:33] I respect it.

[00:06:34] People will think to yourself, hang on what?

[00:06:37] I think that I saw it at a very former today, I think it was 15 when I saw it.

[00:06:42] And it was literally, and I was in this cusp of, you know, I was sort of goth metal kid

[00:06:50] but also at the same time getting into NWA and Wu Tang and stuff.

[00:06:55] And seeing just a story that was really personal and really, really sort of goth punched me.

[00:07:02] But at the same time was quite felt small and scope.

[00:07:07] It was a very small family tale of just on one street, where at least that's how it felt

[00:07:11] to me as a 15 year old.

[00:07:12] I thought, oh, I could tell her crime story at this.

[00:07:14] And of course, you know, ignorant little child thinking, I don't think Matt,

[00:07:18] that's the story for you to tell as a London Irish white guy living in rural Norfolk.

[00:07:25] Maybe not for you.

[00:07:28] But though, I think it's just seeing how people could just, you know, have passion.

[00:07:32] It wouldn't have to be this big effects for having thing.

[00:07:34] It didn't have to be a blockbuster film with, you know, stunts and explosions and, you know,

[00:07:41] being a diehard basically.

[00:07:43] You just realize you could kind of recreate scenes.

[00:07:46] And then from there, I think the other pretty key one was Reservoir Dogs, which is probably more

[00:07:50] in line with, you know, white dude growing up in the late 90s, like 2000s.

[00:07:55] But it's like, again, this is a very small environment just to have for the people all in

[00:07:58] the same suits and so on to both. And then clerks and so on.

[00:08:01] But I just more sort of faded and gave that confidence.

[00:08:04] But it wasn't until 2009 thereabouts when some friends and I actually formed up

[00:08:11] production company, cheese mint.

[00:08:14] I tried and failed so many times to get the ball rolling to really start filmmaking

[00:08:21] properly.

[00:08:22] And maybe, like cannibalizing some of the questions you've got later on my

[00:08:27] phrase. But just to jump ahead, a big obstacle from that initial, like, oh, I have

[00:08:33] a camera. I can now make films. I can do things.

[00:08:36] I did some stop motion stuff on a camcorder.

[00:08:39] That's not an easy thing to do. No, no, not at all.

[00:08:42] Yeah.

[00:08:43] They were a ropey and trash, but it's fine.

[00:08:46] And then you just recreate scenes from films. You just see things.

[00:08:49] You want to get, you know, a flavour of how they did that.

[00:08:52] Oh, hang on. They must have cut here. I'll do it different angle.

[00:08:55] And then you understand how it is doing works. You get more of an understanding.

[00:08:58] But that sort of passion much like starting a band when you're in high school.

[00:09:03] Yeah. You can get a group of friends or really into it and then people sort of

[00:09:06] fade away or dip in and out or circumstances change.

[00:09:09] So it took into my mid 20s to actually get to a point where I think no, I can

[00:09:15] do this properly. We have the technology to this professionally now.

[00:09:19] Let's do something meaningful.

[00:09:22] Yeah. No, I think that's totally fair, man.

[00:09:25] And it's a funny one because the answer's, I've only done like two episodes for this so far.

[00:09:31] Yeah. That, I know it's a deliberately loaded question.

[00:09:35] It's kind of an unfair one for me to ask to start.

[00:09:37] But it's one that I'm curious because I think with influences like so many things,

[00:09:42] it's always going to be multifaceted.

[00:09:44] Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.

[00:09:46] And on top of that, it's not just the fact that, you know, everyone's like a cinema

[00:09:50] parody so moment when they sit down watching go, oh my god, this is cinema.

[00:09:54] This is going to change my life.

[00:09:55] But the reality is the stuff you reference and the things that really influence

[00:10:00] and inspire you aren't what you necessarily think.

[00:10:03] Again, boys and they'll be a prime example where it's like,

[00:10:06] there are so many movies I was watching.

[00:10:08] I mean, you know, the 19-thirt is King Kong.

[00:10:11] I think like a, that's a stop motion thing.

[00:10:13] I could do that. How do we do it?

[00:10:14] You know, you start piece together.

[00:10:16] Well if that's an old, you know, style of filmmaking, that should make it more easy for me to do it.

[00:10:20] Not always the case, but you know, it's in pieces like that.

[00:10:23] And it is this amalgam of lots of different references, lots of different influences

[00:10:28] and lots of inspiration points that make you think, actually,

[00:10:33] I have something to say. Actually, yeah, no, let me scratch it.

[00:10:36] People think they have something to say and for the long-term,

[00:10:39] they force things to say to get themselves to make stuff.

[00:10:43] But the reality is, sorry, budding filmmakers,

[00:10:46] the reality is that the things you say to start with are usually trash because

[00:10:51] you're trying so hard to imitate someone else, to be like someone else,

[00:10:58] to force a story that you think is cool before you understand the fundamentals of storytelling

[00:11:02] in this particular medium and so on.

[00:11:05] So, you know, the story, unless you're like,

[00:11:08] Richard Kelly doing Donny Darko or awesome wells doing Citizen Kane,

[00:11:14] your first big, foray is not going to be your best.

[00:11:17] It could be a really interesting one and it can inform how you work going forward,

[00:11:21] but it isn't the be all-endell.

[00:11:24] No, and also those kinds of people would have put in a lot of practice behind the scenes.

[00:11:29] You guarantee that I wasn't the first thing that they just made.

[00:11:33] Again, looking at my previous season because it's me and it's music,

[00:11:37] I always bring it back to that.

[00:11:39] Yeah, you could say for any art form, but it's just my shorthand is,

[00:11:42] yeah, like the first time, you know, for example,

[00:11:44] Jimmy Hendrix picked up the guitar,

[00:11:46] he didn't just come out with verbal hate,

[00:11:49] you know, like, even he had to practice.

[00:11:51] And I get like you say, yeah, filmmakers,

[00:11:54] once called Saze, I think of like, you know,

[00:11:56] mentioned dress, obviously Spielberg,

[00:11:58] Lollah Lollah for Spielberg on this podcast,

[00:12:00] amongst many other directors,

[00:12:02] they all had to learn the craft of it.

[00:12:05] And yeah, I think you're right,

[00:12:07] something that I've picked up already a couple of times in this conversation

[00:12:10] these conversations that I've had is that

[00:12:14] filmmaking is such a huge undertaking.

[00:12:18] There's going to be a lot of learning curve.

[00:12:21] Absolutely.

[00:12:22] I was so, sorry to go there, but I think no, go for it.

[00:12:26] Equally, it's also not just learning curves in terms of

[00:12:30] technical prowess and understanding how to do certain things.

[00:12:33] It's the expectations versus reality.

[00:12:38] What you think filmmaking is versus what it actually is.

[00:12:42] And the biggest initial hurdle or the biggest initial

[00:12:47] expectation that gets dashed away is that you can do it on your own.

[00:12:55] Right, right. Absolutely.

[00:12:57] Examples of you can.

[00:12:58] There are plenty of animators, especially who obviously work on their own

[00:13:03] and toil away.

[00:13:05] And you can create things on your own, though.

[00:13:07] But in order to tell a broader story,

[00:13:11] you need the assistance of other people.

[00:13:14] And when you, the more deep you get into filmmaking and

[00:13:17] the more you realize hang on actually.

[00:13:18] I need someone to operate the camera and be in front of it and

[00:13:20] directed to watch all these things happening and to write things

[00:13:22] at first place because I can't write whatever it is and to run

[00:13:25] around and organize these locations and sort out,

[00:13:27] painting me, and stuff and also operating all the audio

[00:13:31] and then the post production music.

[00:13:33] All the bits of music is you realize it's actually a huge

[00:13:36] industry and undertaking.

[00:13:38] Yeah. And the learning curve there is are people going to do this.

[00:13:42] And the first thing is you have to know or maybe

[00:13:46] a better way of phrasing would be come to realize what part of

[00:13:52] this huge multi-faster process you actually want to be involved in.

[00:13:58] Are you the kind of person who wants to be in front of the camera

[00:14:02] delivering those emotional performance and one looks who really

[00:14:05] conveys the power of the script.

[00:14:06] You want to simply write the script to sculpt the story where it's going,

[00:14:09] do you want to be the person who is obsessed with how a shot looks,

[00:14:13] arranging the lighting so it comes into every single shot is beautiful

[00:14:17] and fantastic and engaging.

[00:14:18] Do you want to be the kind of production design person who finds that

[00:14:21] perfect bit of location or or or a prop that might change everything

[00:14:26] or construct the prop? Same with the hair, costume makeup.

[00:14:29] There's so much stuff and even then even in the initial stages

[00:14:32] even as a young kid doing like a YouTube channel or doing some

[00:14:37] TikToks or whatever happens to be other something to learn about

[00:14:40] the app and the phone cameras changing everything.

[00:14:43] But no matter what it is you do you have to

[00:14:46] and assess to do everything to start with but then you find a passion

[00:14:49] drilling down into one of those things.

[00:14:51] And that tends to be the thing that sculpts your main drive.

[00:14:55] I'm going to reference it with DPs, I'm going to talk about photography

[00:14:58] to cinematography stuff camera operation.

[00:15:00] And they are great storytellers and they're great as

[00:15:02] many other things. They work on these projects but their passion is

[00:15:05] the machinery and getting yeah, recreating certain shots,

[00:15:08] understanding the movement of cameras, understanding what you can

[00:15:11] and can't do the the horrors of lighting and weather

[00:15:15] and all these sorts of things and everything else kind of

[00:15:19] doesn't matter them. They can just you know blink of

[00:15:21] vision focus on that one thing. It's like oh I don't have this

[00:15:24] going to sound like I don't care about that. I need to look good

[00:15:26] because that's what someone's going to call upon you to do that

[00:15:29] one thing. So can you make your shot good? I can make

[00:15:32] it. I can find it. Yeah, exactly that's something

[00:15:36] especially the more I've got into behind the scenes stuff

[00:15:39] with film and television is just understanding how much of a

[00:15:43] collaborative effort really is like if you're a

[00:15:46] director that's got an amazing vision and you've got this

[00:15:50] brilliant script and you're like yeah it's all I can see it in

[00:15:53] my head and love a blast like great it means absolutely

[00:15:56] nothing if you don't have the right people find you backing

[00:16:00] you up. Yeah it's a good point to pick up on absolutely

[00:16:03] if you're someone who wants to get into this is

[00:16:06] understanding what your role would be in that environment

[00:16:09] I suppose yeah the only way you find that out is by

[00:16:12] trying stuff is by yeah like you said try to make things

[00:16:15] recording things, filming things when you're on a go and

[00:16:17] you know actually I'm rubbish at directing photography.

[00:16:20] I don't understand it. I'm not interested in the

[00:16:23] technology like you said then you go and find somebody who is

[00:16:26] the same. Yeah we might go I don't like writing scripts

[00:16:29] I find it really tedious. Oh my friends are really

[00:16:32] good writer. There it is. I work with them and then someone

[00:16:35] so forth. That's exactly it and to sort of mirror my own

[00:16:38] cinematic journey as it were. Yeah a lot of it started

[00:16:43] with a group of friends who I mean we we all

[00:16:47] formed cheesemen together and it was the idea if we all

[00:16:50] wanted to tell stories in different ways now as

[00:16:53] say that immediately cause some problems because what we

[00:16:56] actually discovered we have was essentially five

[00:17:00] directors and there's like you kind of can't have five

[00:17:05] main directing story tellers. So we did and this is what I

[00:17:08] encourage everybody to do because I was on set a little while

[00:17:11] ago I could come up and one of the people on set

[00:17:15] who he's very much a he's an editor and he loves editing

[00:17:20] but he wants more film experience and he's got this script

[00:17:23] and so on to both and I had him on set as a runner so we could

[00:17:25] get more experience. So you just wanted to see how I

[00:17:28] director film how I do this web series I've been doing

[00:17:32] and I said yeah not from at all and obviously using the

[00:17:36] show as well as as a part to be a bit of acting and he said

[00:17:40] I've got the script I don't know about it. I said film it

[00:17:43] doesn't matter what it is doesn't matter what state it's in

[00:17:45] film it because when you're trying to tell somebody about

[00:17:49] proof of concept I do that you're saying oh I'm working on a film

[00:17:52] and doing a thing the same thing I'm you know I can play

[00:17:55] the guitar that's great that's really positive can I hear any

[00:17:59] of it. Oh no no no I don't record it I don't play on a band

[00:18:01] I don't do anything then I don't know you play a guitar unless

[00:18:03] you can pop it out right now it's a really silly thing to say

[00:18:07] sometimes I think well um but it's not going to be good enough

[00:18:11] it's like nothing's good enough. Yeah any more white demos exist

[00:18:15] 100% absolutely and I think that's the hurdle people get over

[00:18:20] there's a known phrase which is um amateurs worried about

[00:18:24] money professionals worry about time and artists worry about

[00:18:28] light and it's kind of drug at 3 to 3 but the truth is

[00:18:32] it's like you that that first hurdle that first obstacle

[00:18:36] is overcoming that soft doubt because somebody out there

[00:18:39] and make a load of crap um and um open the door

[00:18:43] possibility and ready to succeed because of it whereas

[00:18:46] you're possible script might be fantastic might be

[00:18:49] that's called on the black list where by it's certain things

[00:18:52] this is fantastic we'd get this action as soon as possible

[00:18:55] if it's just a script

[00:18:57] no one's going to read it well it's very unlikely to get ready

[00:19:00] you need to put it even if it's a bunch of mates sit me on a table

[00:19:03] doing an ex so if a single scene you can just put on

[00:19:05] YouTube say I've got this that then becomes a proof of

[00:19:08] something you know what yeah it's really badly

[00:19:11] like Sean of shaky camera whatever it is and it's an old DSLR

[00:19:15] and the acting is a bit passion but the writing is good

[00:19:19] and you can see through something there so when we started

[00:19:23] we all had um shared project which was a web series called Unlocked

[00:19:27] and we were this was like the early days of YouTube like

[00:19:31] 2009 on 2014 and it was a really hard thing for us because we

[00:19:37] had to do things we didn't want to do and that's the key not just

[00:19:40] didn't like doing didn't want to do so specifically

[00:19:44] um of our troop there were people who I was more comfortable

[00:19:49] both behind and in front of the camera and definitely

[00:19:51] writing one thing that infuriates and still to this day infuriates

[00:19:54] everybody is how quickly I can write

[00:19:56] um and as such we'd have you know arguments and debates about

[00:20:01] what should or shouldn't be in the show what the character should do

[00:20:04] we always had this idea of like it's a shared project etc

[00:20:08] um but when it came to write and in order to do this

[00:20:12] we have to act in it and also somehow film it so we had to

[00:20:16] arrange the scenes so at least one of us was behind the camera

[00:20:19] and working audio separately it was a whole

[00:20:22] juggling nightmare to make sure we had enough

[00:20:25] so because there were times we had like a camera

[00:20:28] props and a tripod and a corner hoping it was in focus

[00:20:31] as we were moving to the scene because we're all in that shot

[00:20:34] and it's like this it's this disaster

[00:20:36] but you kind of have to do that and then we'd have

[00:20:38] individual separate projects we would work on

[00:20:40] very much reflecting different parts of our personality

[00:20:42] and what we wanted to do with

[00:20:44] um story telling methods etc

[00:20:46] and we'd also support each other so

[00:20:47] similarly I would like you to act in this

[00:20:49] so I'd like you to be working on the camera

[00:20:51] and this or doing the audio for this while I'm working on

[00:20:53] just the direction so I can focus on all the parts

[00:20:56] rather than just you know

[00:20:58] and then you end up that level of trust where

[00:21:01] yeah that group of friends that that collective

[00:21:05] is able to you can lean on them very quickly

[00:21:08] and also they can be very candid in front with you

[00:21:10] and say you want to try this this isn't working

[00:21:13] John with the camera yet all the not bad idea

[00:21:14] because you worked the environment before so you get that

[00:21:16] for level of operation

[00:21:18] um yeah and so that would be my my first

[00:21:22] bit of advice and it to to Merle you said

[00:21:24] it is a collaborative thing

[00:21:26] if you go in thinking I'm going to produce a

[00:21:28] I make all the money

[00:21:29] I'm going to direct to I make all the rules

[00:21:31] like you are going to be I'm the act

[00:21:33] it's all about my performance

[00:21:34] you are going to have a very bad time

[00:21:37] very quickly because it is about everybody

[00:21:39] trying to bring to life this story together

[00:21:42] and giving each other the space to do

[00:21:44] whatever a good up

[00:21:45] um to give you an anecdote

[00:21:47] we're filming a short film called Titan's Eagle

[00:21:49] back in 2016

[00:21:51] yeah it's a short film about

[00:21:53] the time we're going to be

[00:21:56] our commissarist in the hundreds and it gets

[00:21:58] caught in a time loop

[00:21:59] I like that you're doing science fiction

[00:22:01] but in an unusual setting so rather than being a

[00:22:04] future student or modern thing

[00:22:06] a science fiction time travel thing

[00:22:09] basically or time looping thing

[00:22:11] in sort of post

[00:22:13] uh L. as a beath and England is a bit of an unusual one

[00:22:16] so I thought there you have that's a unique little bit of a twist

[00:22:19] that wouldn't have been a thing

[00:22:21] anyway so at one point

[00:22:23] because of the nature however in the script

[00:22:25] the main character is looping over and over

[00:22:29] but unlike ground talk day with Bill Murray

[00:22:31] he doesn't reset and you know share

[00:22:33] by unwriting his smash as the clock

[00:22:35] instead what happens is

[00:22:37] his body continues to age

[00:22:39] and he can't sleep he can't rest

[00:22:41] so he is physically breaking down

[00:22:43] and people keep real living the same

[00:22:45] conversations and he gets more and more

[00:22:46] distraught on a diagnosis etc

[00:22:48] and at one of the points where he's having

[00:22:51] sort of and the language is very sort of

[00:22:54] Shakespearean show we say

[00:22:56] so one point the actor

[00:22:58] Chris Neil Good friend of mine

[00:23:00] he was giving this

[00:23:01] emotional breakdown and he was

[00:23:03] furious with himself

[00:23:05] it was

[00:23:06] Norfolk countryside

[00:23:08] wind is howling

[00:23:10] overcast you think I'm like I got it's going to rain

[00:23:12] soon looks fantastic obviously for that reason

[00:23:14] he's in this

[00:23:16] costume

[00:23:18] and he's you know pick up grass

[00:23:20] and railing against the world

[00:23:22] and giving it all but he feels he's not

[00:23:24] connecting with it because he's a theatre

[00:23:26] actor first and he's like he just doesn't

[00:23:28] he doesn't feel that connection to it

[00:23:30] and he's so

[00:23:32] lost in the moment of it all

[00:23:34] and I explained to him

[00:23:36] that it's okay just reassure him

[00:23:38] because that is a key thing of a director's

[00:23:40] job just reassuring everybody they're doing

[00:23:42] the best

[00:23:43] and reminding him the

[00:23:45] no single shot is going to be perfect

[00:23:47] it's not standing a

[00:23:49] cubric david venture level we have all

[00:23:51] days to get this one thing don't worry about it

[00:23:53] because that can drive you insane

[00:23:55] and it's based very much so much

[00:23:57] subjective opinion of

[00:23:59] what is good

[00:24:01] and the same way that I can make a thing

[00:24:03] of that fantastic and that to go

[00:24:05] oh I don't think I like that performance like well

[00:24:07] I do because that's what I was looking for

[00:24:09] and you create what I wanted on the script

[00:24:11] and he was in a bad way I said

[00:24:13] look if you give a performance where you

[00:24:15] lean too far forward and you're like

[00:24:17] wanting to feel more real with it

[00:24:19] you want to get up and move around

[00:24:21] camera can't track you then something

[00:24:23] or focus me kind of use the shot or it looks different

[00:24:25] we can use it maybe we'll see it is

[00:24:27] similarly if he wants to go quiet and then really loud

[00:24:29] it peaks the audio we can't use that

[00:24:31] so there are all three of those

[00:24:33] key components of visual audio and the performance

[00:24:35] let alone the environment around you

[00:24:37] they're never always going to be pitch

[00:24:39] perfect and never always going to be

[00:24:41] absolutely where you want them to be

[00:24:43] and having

[00:24:45] or trying to make that clear and come across

[00:24:47] that you're just trying to give the best

[00:24:51] most honest performance you can in that moment

[00:24:53] is a very hard thing for you to get the head

[00:24:57] round.

[00:24:59] hmm no it is yeah it's something

[00:25:01] that I think on paper you wouldn't

[00:25:03] necessarily think of it

[00:25:05] you know just you would kind of just be like

[00:25:07] oh yeah you just stand on the actually

[00:25:09] say the line everyone else is doing their job

[00:25:11] it's all good but as he said it's like

[00:25:13] not always that simple and

[00:25:15] hmm yeah I find it fascinating again

[00:25:17] the more I listen to stuff

[00:25:19] behind the scenes

[00:25:21] it's how much of stuff just never

[00:25:25] pans out the way you expected

[00:25:27] yeah but how much

[00:25:29] if you just sort of go with the flow

[00:25:31] in that respect you know that things

[00:25:33] can sometimes work out for the better

[00:25:35] you know there's discovering things on the day

[00:25:37] or like you said it going

[00:25:39] do you know what that was the best we could do

[00:25:41] and you just look at it and you go

[00:25:43] oh still pretty good like it's still made sense

[00:25:45] still fit the story and absolutely that's fine

[00:25:47] and I like but you said it kind of goes back to

[00:25:49] have concept versus execution

[00:25:53] and again I think that can apply to all sorts of art

[00:25:55] right of like what what you see or hear

[00:25:57] in your head

[00:25:59] never be exactly what you get

[00:26:03] you know and that's fine it's just as you said it

[00:26:07] does it fit does it work yes okay move on

[00:26:11] like don't obsess over it yeah because I think this is the

[00:26:15] okay so to have a different

[00:26:17] take on it for a second

[00:26:21] um i mentioned about how

[00:26:25] in the early days of filmmaking we all do things

[00:26:27] that are necessity because you had to do it

[00:26:29] no one wants to do anything but you have to do it

[00:26:31] understand the storytelling process

[00:26:33] no one wants to do visual effects you have to learn how to use

[00:26:35] after effects all these things are going to place

[00:26:37] we don't want to use audio it's a nuisance having

[00:26:39] a two-cell think i'm not just the encarmer stuff and you hear

[00:26:41] all the hissing you know i don't know i can't actually

[00:26:43] that's all we do needs to have several audio

[00:26:45] but there's a key thing it the more

[00:26:47] these you have to do

[00:26:49] the more aware of the struggles

[00:26:51] and complications that that

[00:26:53] pack about what department

[00:26:55] are feeling and that gives you a huge edge when it comes

[00:26:59] to working on different productions there are too many

[00:27:01] people who i'm not you know now bad

[00:27:03] mouthing a specific route of getting into filmmaking

[00:27:05] or specific style

[00:27:07] let's say for example you are somebody who

[00:27:09] went to film school

[00:27:11] studied entirely how to do

[00:27:13] um say cinematography

[00:27:15] and your obsess with becoming the new

[00:27:17] Roger Deakin so great phrase

[00:27:19] or you're like i'm going to make these beautiful shots

[00:27:21] i want to film the room with haze and

[00:27:23] you know get these perfect dolly shots every single time

[00:27:27] it's going to be every frame of painting that's what i'm doing

[00:27:29] that's what i'm doing right now

[00:27:31] if you do that there is a huge risk

[00:27:35] that you have lack of better word

[00:27:37] zero empathy for every other role because you are so

[00:27:41] you're so you're so you're

[00:27:43] honed in on that one thing

[00:27:45] that you're like oh i need to move the camera here for

[00:27:47] better lighting and like the actors

[00:27:49] doing their thing don't move the camera

[00:27:51] than it they are trying to focus your

[00:27:53] putting people off

[00:27:55] and similarly like oh i've got to put the haze machine on

[00:27:59] that's going to make a lot of noise

[00:28:01] well that'd be off when the actual scene starts

[00:28:03] because you know the sounds going to be

[00:28:05] up there's wearing a machine in the background

[00:28:07] there are so many things you can do

[00:28:09] whereas of what we're directors and actors

[00:28:11] and other people in the past who haven't

[00:28:13] had that semblance of experience

[00:28:15] on different areas of filmmaking

[00:28:19] different areas of production

[00:28:21] so there's a slight

[00:28:23] ignorance something is unfair

[00:28:25] and unawareness should we say of

[00:28:27] what is involved and that could be a huge setback

[00:28:31] because part of the reason to be saying you know

[00:28:33] you need to talk to the actors you don't

[00:28:35] direct as trust them to do with their doing

[00:28:37] but if you have a little bit of experience

[00:28:39] if you have a bit of experience of working on some visual effects

[00:28:41] you know full well okay i would put some of tripod i'm not going

[00:28:43] to show off because they are nightmarin post production

[00:28:45] otherwise i'm going to put some dots on here

[00:28:47] even it's just a little sticky things because i need

[00:28:49] something to track on this because it's just like

[00:28:51] show the effects shots for you to do

[00:28:53] or hang on

[00:28:55] the camera is moving on the people are moving

[00:28:57] and you're making it like a really cool

[00:28:59] fight scenes like no that's really hard now

[00:29:01] so i don't know because i've never done it

[00:29:03] that's that level of

[00:29:05] as i say just experience goes a long way

[00:29:07] to understanding and as i mean you have to do

[00:29:09] everything just speak to you

[00:29:11] yeah exactly dude i completely agree

[00:29:15] it's again my mind just thinks of music

[00:29:17] because it's me

[00:29:19] and like yeah my example is like i'm not a drummer

[00:29:23] right and i don't know how to play the drums

[00:29:25] but because i've worked with that

[00:29:28] the drummers in bands and because i've

[00:29:30] learned how to program drums and i spent a lot of time

[00:29:32] watching instructional videos on it and stuff just to understand

[00:29:36] how they think

[00:29:38] as a result i can now

[00:29:39] you know right differently i can write songs differently

[00:29:42] like in send demos to the drummer and my band

[00:29:44] and they're not ridiculous

[00:29:46] you know like there's a common like joking cliché

[00:29:49] amongst musicians like if you're a drummer

[00:29:51] and a band that a guitarist sends you a demo

[00:29:52] like they're going to send you something that's impossible to play

[00:29:55] like because yeah because they don't understand

[00:29:57] you know they haven't sat down to think about

[00:29:59] okay how would you physically

[00:30:01] do this they just go this sounds cool can you do this

[00:30:04] like no because i don't have six arms

[00:30:06] that's a good idea

[00:30:08] and yeah filmmaking i like you said i listen to you guys

[00:30:12] listening to lots of film based podcasts

[00:30:15] at the moment i think it's worth discussing right the visual effects

[00:30:18] kind of industries and crisis at the moment for a number of

[00:30:21] reasons yeah but one massive reason is because

[00:30:24] a lot of filmmakers and particularly production companies

[00:30:28] seem to be ignorant to the demands that they're asking right of a lot

[00:30:32] of visual effects companies like you just said they're going like

[00:30:35] here's all this footage

[00:30:36] can you do all of this in like

[00:30:39] x amount of time and they're going no yeah that's not possible

[00:30:42] and so like you said just it doesn't mean you have to go and get a

[00:30:45] master's degree right in visual effects but just having

[00:30:48] conversation just sit down and and just be curious and go

[00:30:51] how how do you do your job how does this work and then

[00:30:54] just having that awareness can then make you go

[00:30:56] right actually we need to a lot

[00:30:58] this amount of time and this amount of

[00:31:01] footage or whatever it is to make their job easier

[00:31:04] and then what's funny is when you do that right you need to think of

[00:31:06] filmmakers that very clearly do that like they are thinking of

[00:31:11] the camera operator they are thinking of

[00:31:14] you know space for music or for visual effects or whatever it is

[00:31:18] the end results always so much better right because they've obviously

[00:31:21] thought ahead and have communicated clearly with those departments

[00:31:25] so yeah it's it's a very interesting thing to consider

[00:31:27] well it's just come back to your analogy but the drama for us again

[00:31:30] I think that's a really important one because

[00:31:32] if you go in again with i had this idea i have this vision

[00:31:36] what you should do should have a clear idea what you want arguably

[00:31:39] but if you have to the degree you like i'm going to marry and

[00:31:42] it is people i'm going to pop everyone around so they do what i want

[00:31:45] to do yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

[00:31:47] no i'm sure it's easy right okay well nice then it's going to be a

[00:31:52] disaster because you don't have the experience in the same way that

[00:31:55] you know you can write whatever you want on a bit i mean this is a bit of a

[00:31:58] George Lucas moment where the um you know you could write it but you

[00:32:01] can't say it it's it's it sounds like it's a weird soap opera

[00:32:06] nonsense and you know hospital radio drama and you're like

[00:32:10] look i get it but that's a lot of exposition deal i want to get this across

[00:32:13] yeah i think denival and over the director is really interesting in that regard

[00:32:15] because he has a appreciation for visuals cinema and

[00:32:21] you don't even talk in one time really the actors know what they're doing

[00:32:25] and are very good at it they can convey things without just

[00:32:27] explaining i am feeling sad there was somebody ways to do it

[00:32:31] and i think that level of of trust to say is a big important thing but i

[00:32:38] think there's also to come back to the the VFX aspect because this is a nice

[00:32:44] interesting bridge here having worked on myself uh the most independent

[00:32:49] independent me with my camcorder back in the early 2000s

[00:32:53] all the way to being a background actor on a mirror max production um i have seen

[00:33:00] many different stages of production um and how they run and it's weird

[00:33:04] much of the same with the way you travel around the world you think oh my god

[00:33:07] the world is such a crazy place and then you realise hang on no it isn't it's just people

[00:33:11] trying to get by and feed their families the same thing everywhere around the world

[00:33:16] and when you suddenly realize it you know it's all connected it's all the same they're just

[00:33:18] different levels of money involved and that's absolutely true for filmmaking

[00:33:24] and there is a um a misnomer or a misunderstanding i remember this for those you know

[00:33:32] years ago where well meaning colleagues in my day job we're like oh when's going to be a big

[00:33:38] break and that's kind of the worst thing you can say because it doesn't exist people

[00:33:44] are genuinely convinced you like oh well i do this one thing i get recognized and then i'm a film

[00:33:48] star where i'm a major director of in an Oscar same thing with music is like oh i perform

[00:33:53] once on a stage therefore i'm now going to get record the other thing that's not how that works

[00:33:56] you even when you do climb to the top of the mountain and you are working for a

[00:34:02] Warner Brothers or whoever happens to be and you're working on major huge productions

[00:34:06] you are grafting and grinding every single day for relevance but still trying to keep that

[00:34:12] and you are not only doing that anymore with the sense of um you know i'm here i have all these

[00:34:19] you have to justify everything and what's more you lose a lot of autonomy and lesser

[00:34:24] at Christopher Nolan who has full final cut control sort of thing which again nobody really does

[00:34:29] you end up working on projects that you don't like that fall apart very quickly with actors

[00:34:34] you didn't necessarily want to cast in the first place but the studio said actually you know what

[00:34:38] they're good for us producers saying i you know i know you want to film this in wherever and

[00:34:44] if i really would be cheaper but we've got a good contract deal with this studio we can do a

[00:34:48] wrap around green screen we'd rather do it on the effects might not just fly out to task in

[00:34:52] it's a bit easier to do the whole thing i've got the whole thing set was like you could just turn

[00:34:56] the camera and be done and we'd get it no no no no we don't really want to do that that would

[00:34:59] be a bit too much risk for insurers you know you could be out there for weeks like that's the point

[00:35:05] and you find that the the bigger the platform the more the risk and the more voices

[00:35:11] who feel like they have a stake and yeah because now you're in the industry now too it's now

[00:35:18] you're now in the business i have as many friends who are and i make no um claims to be you know

[00:35:28] the most powerful amazing wonderful film they could have never been when we started we were at

[00:35:34] the cusp of you tubing a big thing and rather than chasing the whole we need to make a video

[00:35:38] every single week we said we just want to make the things we want to make and because we did that

[00:35:44] and made that decision very early on um that afforded us the opportunity to tell the stories

[00:35:51] we actually wanted to tell um and subsequently there are friends i have who i said went to earlier

[00:35:57] who who look up to me and got oh my god you've won these awards you create this amazing fun

[00:36:03] projects and you do so many cool things i want to be involved and how would i even start scratch

[00:36:08] the surface of being like that just make it just make it um yeah and then you've got people who i

[00:36:14] know who work professionally in the industry um with their own companies who work on you know professional

[00:36:22] shoots for things like scenes briefs for example and sky sky tv so and they're live in the dream

[00:36:26] but they'll still turn around and say to like quite late of mutual friends they yeah kind of my

[00:36:31] shows doing what Matt was doing like what no you've made it you're doing this for your job as a

[00:36:35] happy having fun i'm not having fun anymore i'm filming people in morons i'm kind of bored of it

[00:36:40] yeah pays the bills but i'm not want to do it and so many people who i was a friend of mine jaymy who

[00:36:46] this is to the sequel as a podcast and reached out and said hey uh i'm an actor i'd love to be

[00:36:52] involved in uh super happy kill time i don't know super happy kill time as the web series i've been doing

[00:36:56] since 2016 um it is on hiatus and sort of because we thought we last episode we went up in 2019

[00:37:03] and then i said hang on these a pandemic hit i need to film the rest of this and i shot

[00:37:09] five seasons back the back which is ridiculous so i could release it or we'd have with

[00:37:14] that one problems but he saw it and said i really like this and this is the podcast that you

[00:37:18] understand filmmaking and he uh he was on the set uh recently of mission impossible eight and he's been

[00:37:26] on like wow um king Arthur the the um guy richie film and yeah did body double stuff for David Beckham

[00:37:33] and things and he's a really really close guy but specifically it's the whole i would like to

[00:37:38] work with you as like well I mean yeah i can like there's a role i have available if you want it

[00:37:43] you have to obviously come out to know are you like in paper mix of the expenses he said yeah

[00:37:46] i'll make it work like okay and it's that level of just friendly co-operation and collaboration

[00:37:55] of making things that goes a long way because when you find people who are even white oh yeah

[00:37:59] you're working on like you know mission impossible why would you come do this small production in

[00:38:03] orange like because it sounds fun and that's the key thing after a while you just want to

[00:38:08] in their way like oh but you're you're playing glass and breathe yeah but i kind of want to jam

[00:38:12] in a small garage with you because you guys seem to have a good rhythm and i want to be part of that

[00:38:17] it's it's a weird thing to drive to describe to people at some point actually you know i think there's

[00:38:21] a bit of a thing at the minute with the millennials uh and jenzie as well as the ship specifically

[00:38:26] called corporate de-escalation where we were told like oh you gotta get ahead got to get you

[00:38:32] know kind of the corporate ladder and you know really really be hungry for it and then

[00:38:37] realising that it's a lot of stress and people don't necessarily want it they're going to go

[00:38:40] back with just something that's more comfortable and stable and weirdly enough that camera

[00:38:45] affected art sometimes just like you know everyone who gets to a certain degree of scrutiny

[00:38:51] and spotlight on them and fame will always say an interviews i kind of miss the days when we were

[00:38:56] paying to like you know hundred people in a smallish venue or alternative i miss the days when

[00:39:02] we're making random scripts and we sit around so you want to film us and just go film it that was

[00:39:05] ended it rather than getting planning permission and doing these things and it goes to six

[00:39:08] months of process of working out the stuff um you get like Simon Peigabadgarite and they broke

[00:39:13] and directed Sean at the dead because they decided just to do it now they have to find time

[00:39:19] in between multiple moving projects to get six weeks to do some writing and it's just like it may

[00:39:24] happen if they're in a room together for a long period of time but reality is once you get

[00:39:27] to a certain stage it's just very very difficult to do that yeah that's just it i think yeah

[00:39:34] it's it's it's fascinating isn't it i think it's that idea of working so hard to in air quotes

[00:39:42] make it and then once you've made it it's like oh this isn't what i thought it was it's actually

[00:39:47] it's just it yeah exactly it's like oh i've just inherited more responsibility and more issues i mean

[00:39:56] yeah i again sorry i'm not I'm not apologizing it's my podcast music i think if i

[00:40:04] whenever like you know an artist wants to do like a side project and they do a side band and they'll

[00:40:09] go and like play a couple of smaller venues in there and their project sounds absolutely nothing like

[00:40:15] yeah whatever their other band is and then people get mad at them you know and he like

[00:40:19] no they're just doing what they've did from the start which was just being creative and having fun

[00:40:25] and yeah like you said i think when it comes to my my understanding of a sort of smaller

[00:40:29] film makers is because there is such a inherently larger cost in making the thing right even

[00:40:37] like on a smaller budget you know making a short making a youtube series whatever it is

[00:40:42] i think i guess that it's kind of like podcasting as well i suppose in that way of like

[00:40:45] if you can cover the costs to do a bigger thing awesome like yeah absolutely like if

[00:40:53] if you can help me just get the costs down of making this series or this thing brilliant

[00:41:01] and that's it you know and if you're like oh and you get a profit on top

[00:41:04] even better that's just the icing on the cake because it don't that's fine cake still made

[00:41:09] and yeah as you said it it's just when that but it's like anything when it when you're

[00:41:13] hobby when your fashion becomes absolutely a career you have so many other things now to think

[00:41:18] about it so many other things to factor in and yeah i do i totally agree i think i you can see it

[00:41:23] you can definitely see it in a lot of artists like the ones that get to make the thing that they

[00:41:28] enjoy are so grateful for it because it's rare because so many people that make it are just like

[00:41:34] you say they guess funneled in so that a system now and it's just like well now you've got

[00:41:39] bills to pay and now you've got things to manage and people to please so it's just the job you

[00:41:44] got to do it yeah and you're on the treadmill and you want to tell one type of story i'll do

[00:41:48] one type of film you really pass you all it's like well in order to do that you have to do these

[00:41:52] two for a studio and they're like i don't want to tell my story isn't it first one comes out

[00:41:57] and get blacklisted because we are the day what it was was back quite crappy because you didn't

[00:42:01] want to do it you know try to get a bit of personal in the whole way and then you go or i wanted

[00:42:06] to do was make something else there was a big wave of that in the 2010s which was small independent

[00:42:12] film makers making you know films like marvel super hero films well initially you know things

[00:42:21] like yeah yeah tranks got example we did chronicle and then immediately rather getting a mid tier

[00:42:26] budget film going straight to a hero's a triple your triple a style blockbuster you're doing fantastic

[00:42:32] four and i was like okay well i want to do this we kind of that okay well i'm just actually kind

[00:42:36] of that actor now it's not me defending tranks i think there's some crappy things allegedly

[00:42:40] but more important things the idea of like there is a path and this is actually a really interesting

[00:42:44] point for all creatives and filmmakers you mentioned the Christ's point with regards to VFX

[00:42:52] yeah i don't know what the reality is or the you know weird corporate speak the funnel

[00:43:03] from i want to make a film to i am now Steven Spielberg and it's so strange because the fact is

[00:43:10] that in the early 2000s when a mentor got my camcorder and very much so in the mid 2000s

[00:43:16] technology became much more cheap and accessible and so on so forth and yet it's harder seemingly

[00:43:24] so the big technological you know um barrier in the sixty seventy days he's ninety

[00:43:32] where I have to be was everything is done on film and that means you have to be able to shoot

[00:43:37] and edit and develop film actual cellular that's a huge barrier that's that's not like an easy

[00:43:43] thing to do you know people are like a super eight camera super sixteen something and they

[00:43:47] make these little home movies whatever it would be and that would be their introduction

[00:43:51] the idea of cool but you still have to have a little expertise with that then it became a

[00:43:56] breaking point with digital technology where um if you take Michael Mann made doing the film collateral

[00:44:03] with Jamie Foxe and Tom Cruise and he shot on a digital camera a very high-end expensive digital

[00:44:10] camera but still a proof of concept that you can shoot these things you don't need a movie camera any

[00:44:15] more of the the right starting point technological speaking is not what it once was in a

[00:44:23] vertical mass anyone could do it yeah there's still expensive startup cost but in theory and

[00:44:27] I can do it then we got to the really awkward phase of the late 2010s where films and series

[00:44:37] and storytelling became content yeah content is very different because it's a word that's been

[00:44:45] constructed to say everything from written copy to video music or perhaps to be and there is not

[00:44:55] an easy way to say I want to tell the story you mentioned about the side projects with bands for

[00:45:00] example I want to tell a story that's really funny or that's really clever that's really insightful

[00:45:05] I really love that do it every single day with a rest of your life and second you mess up

[00:45:12] our group is gonna hate so you end up pandering to what already is and what could be rather than doing

[00:45:18] a sense of there's a bit of a split divide between um and this is true of raw light um

[00:45:26] I want to make something that the audience will want there are enough people placing

[00:45:32] kind of person you want to do what people are going to really latch on to go do that and you try

[00:45:36] and find out what people are listening to what people are watching the stories they're telling and you

[00:45:41] create that and that's like a parts of success um alternatively you say I don't care what people want

[00:45:49] I'm gonna make things that I want to see and both are legitimate there's obviously a lot of people say

[00:45:54] one's bad and the other etc and you could take bits from from both but the reality is um

[00:46:01] regardless which path you choose if you go on to like YouTube for example tick-tock

[00:46:06] you're still bound to the whole right there you go I've decided that's what you are now and

[00:46:10] then god help you solve if you change it's like you you got really popular by doing this one thing

[00:46:16] talk about this one subject and only that one subject if you step outside of that you are going to

[00:46:21] alter and that's true podcast of everything else it's you know or you know the dreaded second album

[00:46:27] where you know artists go do a tour they you know whether it's some small clubs or actual

[00:46:33] a big thing around a country where it happens to be and they come back and say you know what we've kind of

[00:46:39] changed a bit as people and I think we'd want to tell a different story and of course whether the

[00:46:43] fans want that or not whether you know there are countless examples throughout time of that

[00:46:48] something with film makers you think oh you know how I really love this director I can't

[00:46:51] wait to see the next film and then you didn't like that yeah because they either because the studio

[00:46:56] top and the head to all more accurately because they want to tell it up in stories and I'm

[00:46:59] saying the same thing over and over again exactly yeah I mean that's any art yeah is growth

[00:47:05] it's going to be changing influences changing mindset I mean I hope that most people listening like

[00:47:11] you're not the same person that you were when you were 18 so when you were 18 when you were 40

[00:47:16] and so on you know and anywhere in between right like no one stays the same where if they do

[00:47:22] that's worrying you know if you have that one friend that was the same as they were in high school

[00:47:26] right until their sort of adult life you worry about that person you just like that person needs help

[00:47:32] so so yeah it's kind of weird that we expect that from our filmmakers right from our other artists

[00:47:37] in life is that we go yeah but I really liked that specific thing if they can just do that again it's

[00:47:43] like no shouldn't have to it's not how people do no I don't know you're the same

[00:47:48] but like yeah my sort of stance on it nowadays is just like now I'll just follow the person

[00:47:54] as they are I'll see what their journey is and always think especially with stuff like film

[00:47:59] like a good point to bring up streaming especially yeah it's sort of the positive in the negative

[00:48:04] side we'll see the negative I agree like turning everything into content is depressing but an

[00:48:09] upside of that means that if a director for example an actor whoever is putting out something

[00:48:16] that is great and you go love it and then if not another thing and you go I didn't love it

[00:48:21] just wait yep just wait they'll put something else out before you know and then you'll carry on

[00:48:27] whereas yeah you said if it's kind of living and dying by that sort of but I want them to

[00:48:32] consistently be perfect it's like yeah but that's not anybody everybody I think you know

[00:48:38] it's rare that you get a director that has like perfect films and even the ones that do

[00:48:43] some are going to be better than others right like I know we can talk about this then you

[00:48:47] will know like the guy in my books is pretty much got an amazing perfect film record but I say

[00:48:55] perfect and when there's early stuff I you know not as good as what came after yeah but I mean still

[00:49:01] still amazing still like for what it was and for yeah where he wasn't his career it's fantastic

[00:49:06] and you could say the same about Spielberg you can look at like his run in like the 80s is insane

[00:49:10] like any film director had there they go yeah I'm good I'm like I'm out yeah and that but

[00:49:15] then he does ready play a one yeah yeah that's still bad you know like he is I mean okay

[00:49:21] with there's a phrase which is when Ridley Scott director movie god flips a coin

[00:49:25] of which one you get like a good little bad movie Spielberg is one where he goes in big bulk

[00:49:29] where you go like oh there's this is the years this is the good years I've ever seen even

[00:49:32] that sort of what could be considered you know less solid fair it's still phenomenal filmmaking

[00:49:38] and then you use the latest you think why don't you probably put on the eye could do it only I

[00:49:41] could bring these people together tell this kind of story and get the licenses and the rights

[00:49:45] and there's the kind of story is that yeah but yeah did you really had to because it's kind

[00:49:52] of pat and he talked about that level of evolution in changing and there is there is a very much

[00:49:59] in need and again to become a Spielberg and ET they get oh no these are cop shit and

[00:50:06] they're guns but all he talk is in no no no no you made that at the time and yes you've

[00:50:11] improved as a storyteller you've changed as a storyteller don't go back and change those things

[00:50:16] you want to do a new version what are you going to do fine if you're to change up how you're doing

[00:50:20] a certain thing fine looking at you George Lee I'm a little bit of a saint absolutely

[00:50:24] but people getting embarrassed by these things people look back at their own I mean coming out

[00:50:27] the matrix carry a must was a bit so poor and it's just terrible because she was so nervous

[00:50:32] and worried about the whole thing that she couldn't see right yeah and it's like yeah that's one of

[00:50:37] the most influential performances for a lot of people and she can't see it because she's yeah

[00:50:43] by what I'd like to do it better that's not what it's about as said before that the nature

[00:50:48] capturing these things is always like I can prove it's a improvements you're not trying to create

[00:50:52] this one perfect thing you're trying to do your best and be honest about it um I think

[00:50:59] to come back to the the the the nature of fan base and audiences and their opinions

[00:51:06] I am very much of the opinion that people have no idea what they want until they see it so

[00:51:11] they will decrease certain things they will say this is terrible greed I don't like this album I

[00:51:15] don't like this film I don't like this show oh they've changed it it's like sometimes there's

[00:51:19] actual legitimacy to it you can from a critical point you can say okay we'll hang on it this is a

[00:51:24] subpar effort this one is quite whatever's going on their head or the creatives at the time

[00:51:29] something isn't jailing probably and things are falling apart but specifically there's just

[00:51:35] ah I didn't enjoy that it's because the thing you think you liked about that first experience that first

[00:51:40] movie um let's take the matrix for example matrix and we talked about some sequelizers a lot

[00:51:47] about the motivation to make another movie and the worst motivation is ah brilliant we've got

[00:51:51] a we've got an audience that's makes a more money out of them it's like yeah but why did they turn

[00:51:56] up why was the film successful and why did you get that story across the line in the first place

[00:52:00] it probably wasn't because oh you know we're performing a specific formula it was pretty because

[00:52:04] it broke against those sort of formulas so the matrix people don't seem to think um realize or appreciate

[00:52:12] why people were like oh god I want another one of those you watch the film especially in 1999

[00:52:19] in the cinema um it was a kid it was 15 of the time so it was like the whole like oh I'm I

[00:52:23] cut a league of these these in cinema what an amazing experience and you come out of it and you

[00:52:27] thought you're you know it was on the rise of the internet this very zeitgeist sort of moment

[00:52:35] um and it was the perfect time bit of storytelling um in many different ways and that's it right

[00:52:40] do another matrix movie problem is what you think you want from the matrices I want to see more

[00:52:46] guns I want to see more slow motion stuff some cool VFX kind of actually not what you want to see

[00:52:52] although it arguably on paper is what you actually want is to go into an experience that you

[00:52:57] have no idea what you're going to get yourself in for and then midway through the entire film

[00:53:01] turns your entire understanding of the world not only the world of the movie upside down and in the

[00:53:07] process it's got you know exceptional acting and writing and choreography and cinematography and

[00:53:14] music and fashion and it just feels like a unique thing you've never seen before now if you play that

[00:53:19] exact thing again you get matrix reloaded and you go oh I didn't like it was very good yes because

[00:53:23] not only was it an odd enterprise with this film by sect didn't released in the songs of

[00:53:31] both but it didn't have that same epiphany you didn't have that same thing so what you have is

[00:53:36] the architect scene ah that's how we're gonna you know disrupt their idea of what the world is

[00:53:41] like yeah but it didn't because I'm just confusing annoyed now so yeah because what I think you thought

[00:53:46] you wanted didn't arguably and it's I would say as well like having done a couple of

[00:53:51] episodes on the matrix it's a fundamental misunderstanding of what the story is in the first

[00:53:56] it goes back to what you were saying and for all it's not knowing what they want

[00:53:59] just going like oh but it's the cool action movie and it's like yeah but what's the story you know

[00:54:07] and yeah and like you say that's that's often the way that's often the way yeah again it's

[00:54:12] very much to say with music a lot of stuff people you know oh I really love to span this album

[00:54:15] nip was something else and they go that sounded nothing like previous one it's like no it does

[00:54:21] if you're paying attention if you're listening to what's going on like the lyric

[00:54:25] ideas are the same or like the structures the same they just recorded in a different studio

[00:54:31] just with different instruments it's you know and then and also why would you want somebody

[00:54:35] to repeat themselves like you're thinking about this as film it's like what yeah this I really

[00:54:41] feel like it's a poison chalice right particularly for doing sequels yes because the idea of like

[00:54:46] imagine like everything we've discussed going through all of those hurdles juggling all of

[00:54:51] those balls to get a film made that's a miracle like well done you've you've crossed the line and oh

[00:54:57] amazing it just happens to hit at the right time for whatever reason you now have a success on your

[00:55:03] hands and like you say then then the the business mindset is do it again and you're like yeah but

[00:55:10] hey I don't want to and be people who go or just if if you watch a sequel and it's just the same as

[00:55:18] the one before no one's going to enjoy that you know because they can just go back and watch

[00:55:25] the previous one yeah so yeah what's the motivation of you doing this in the first place if it's

[00:55:30] to make money or is to try to be right capture the same audience again then you're gonna end up

[00:55:35] disappointing people or disappointing and frustrating yourself a good example I mean we're sorry to

[00:55:41] cut you off I was going to say like we're in that I feel like we're in that base now right with

[00:55:44] legacy secret yeah yeah and anything it's it's that massive question of like why are you doing this

[00:55:50] right why are you doing this and the answer is obviously money is nostalgia but yeah I'm sure

[00:55:56] we can think of lots of examples right of where ones where it works where it lands and then ones

[00:55:59] where absolutely falls apart and you're just like this just feels like a horrible rehash totally

[00:56:04] well and of what came about and you can always see how the at some point there was a earnest brick

[00:56:11] and it's like this is gonna be a thing that's gonna be really interesting and then it just gets

[00:56:14] chiseled away down to now this is just here to to bit of when a release window as it

[00:56:22] will just get this out and so on to both yeah and it's interesting when you have

[00:56:25] there's a thing I sort of advise a vibe of advice film makers of any level of any

[00:56:33] stage of starting out just be a sense of pandering be true to yourself in your convictions

[00:56:41] because that's the when you at the end of it when you have to show your film or production

[00:56:46] your own name as attached to it someone's gonna say yeah why'd you drag that crap it's like well

[00:56:52] I you know I was told by someone else I had to do this right on and no we'll see like that

[00:56:56] that always say you are the person who made this bad story you are responsible well I didn't

[00:57:01] want to do that I couldn't control the actors I couldn't control the release I was told by a

[00:57:05] client I had to do this or whatever it isn't like yeah and now everyone hates it and you are the

[00:57:09] person who decided that the Kylie Jenner Pepsi commercial where she adds a Pepsi to a

[00:57:15] policeman in the middle of the George Floyd you know fall out was a great idea and that's around

[00:57:22] your neck like an album so the rest of your career it's like I see what is positive idea

[00:57:26] for filmmaking in a story time but in the process you call it shoulder up in your room and

[00:57:31] an example of somebody who I think is a very interesting trajectory but again it's come

[00:57:36] at we're saying right the story of this is somebody who is already in the industry who has that

[00:57:42] level of understanding so my attention to get into it my favorite director is a lyric or a

[00:57:50] and he directed his first film of 33 but that's not actually true it's first feature debut

[00:57:55] from himself was 33 he'd been working in the studio industry even during like World War II

[00:58:01] propaganda era he was still working in the film so around him so he was doing different jobs

[00:58:10] and responsibilities that they mentioned about for you know finding better people but it wasn't

[00:58:14] like you just um strap one day as 33 year olds and I'm gonna now be a director so having a bit of

[00:58:21] understanding of the industry having a bit of experience and exposure is crucial for certain things

[00:58:26] whether that's I've made my own independent stuff or I've been working as a run or on big

[00:58:30] productions for years where ever happens to be and a good example that for me is Jordan Peel who

[00:58:36] obviously phenomenal comedian really really funny then says I'm gonna make a horror movie of

[00:58:41] whatever just you're gonna do a comedy it's like nope and he makes get out and get out is so good

[00:58:47] and so cutting and is you know it was loaded and praised um both critically and commercially

[00:58:56] and people were like right that's getting another get out too and he said no now I'm making a film

[00:59:01] cool to us and then he makes note and every film is saying a different thing in a different way

[00:59:06] and whether you like those movies for different pros and cons that's fine because it's a different

[00:59:13] story the question is he's he bringing in you know his level of attention to detail and story

[00:59:20] telling and influences I mean in no specific there are lots of influences of like um the on

[00:59:26] Genesis he van Gallion and a kira so you have like this oh it's a thing about UFOs and and

[00:59:32] technically you know cowboys it's a degree like yes but no um because you bring in all these things

[00:59:39] that you know of inspired you over these and also who you are as a person and your own background

[00:59:44] and yeah experiences um but we could be an easily a different story where the studio pushed him

[00:59:51] and he does get out too and Daniel Collier's character goes often they try and take down another

[00:59:58] group of people and maybe one day he'll do another get out too but it doesn't seem likely because

[01:00:02] that's not seem within his um no what the story he wants to tell and because he doesn't have to

[01:00:08] he won't whereas someone like James Cameron is like I just wanted to allow a guitar films

[01:00:14] and frustratingly um I think this is a weird thing because advertised is well average I want to

[01:00:23] respectively are some of the highest grossing films of all time and we've all arguably seen them

[01:00:29] even if we haven't because statistically of course we have because they've made all the money

[01:00:33] and yet they have no cultural footprint nobody really loves Avatar really people can enjoy it

[01:00:38] they can say oh I had a great time at the cinema I remember that um but no one's like

[01:00:44] crying out for merchandise and buying stuff and and I know there's a Pandora world in certain

[01:00:51] disease but it'd be really really good but again it's this level of what is it so it's a thing

[01:00:55] that James Cameron wants to do and on one hand I really respect that because he's just like I just want

[01:00:59] to create this and have fun with it and he has the ability to do so and create some of the most

[01:01:03] amazing visual effects that has that time it takes to make them look as good as they do

[01:01:08] and so when he does do Avatar where water I watch it and thought yep this is very very long

[01:01:14] and I don't care for the story at all but you know what these elect up a nominal and I saw

[01:01:20] an eye max and I was like I'm below I am alone away and yet yeah that's stunning yeah it's not a good

[01:01:27] that's like a two or three out of five it's not a good film because you know what it is but that's

[01:01:33] again to sort of come back to what we're saying earlier figure out what you want to do figure out

[01:01:37] what you want to say figure out what you want to because it's your film it's your thing you're making

[01:01:42] no one's and even if it is like oh I'm a camera person and this is my mate's movie then express

[01:01:48] yourself with the camera put across your opinion but across what you think will look best for

[01:01:53] people are looking for that expertise they're looking for that level of understanding

[01:01:59] in a way that you know it to come back to the band analogy everybody thinks that the most

[01:02:04] important part of the band and wants to play the loudest but it's when you understand that

[01:02:09] but you know guitarists don't understand how a bass guitar works and just think this is

[01:02:18] amazing guitar and they're like remove the bass from that for a second oh it kind of feels hollow

[01:02:22] and tinny yeah because you need that whole thing working together in harmony and if you

[01:02:28] are thinking of just pulling center stage because that's the bit people sort of hum off top of the head

[01:02:32] and again something with with different levels of production with filmmaking you may think

[01:02:37] you want to be front and center in the camera and acting and really doing this emotional

[01:02:40] performance but if that's not your wheelhouse you're not good at that don't yeah again

[01:02:47] do when you have to do it because you have to as I said before I do encourage people to try

[01:02:51] everything but don't force yourself to keep doing that because you think oh I'll get it soon

[01:02:57] it's like find the people who are good at it and then and it's one of those things if you're

[01:03:01] young people are desperate to connect with groups and make things and there's always these loose

[01:03:11] peripheral pieces that are disconnected or somebody who loves editing but has no footage to

[01:03:16] edit something loves writing but has no one to help film that stuff someone who wants to act

[01:03:20] but has nothing to read and write in you all end up recreating other people stuff people edit you

[01:03:24] know I've done an edit a cap cut sort of thing of some cool effects from or recut a scene

[01:03:31] from how to the dragon or I've written it at my fan sort of cast episode of how I'd like

[01:03:36] a certain thing to go in a certain show or alternatively I've done a monlogue from a certain film

[01:03:41] these are all really good things but they're not yours they're not these unique individual creations

[01:03:45] arguably and they always feel tied to these other projects but when you make something that's your own

[01:03:49] better or worse you can see and feel all the components that got you there in the first place

[01:03:56] and you learn very quickly as you were saying earlier all the mistakes you're making on the way

[01:04:00] that learning curve happens real fast yeah yeah you've realized that oh my god this is why I focus

[01:04:04] we've ruined the whole thing it's like doing trying fixes and posts can we fix it in the post

[01:04:08] then you realize no we can't therefore you stop becoming very diligent about making choice as a

[01:04:12] Vogue's good scope that kind of thing yeah a hundred percent and I think again it's like anything

[01:04:19] it's just you're always going to be learning curve and me help starting a podcast right there yeah

[01:04:24] you feel you probably feel the same way that I feel about earlier episode but back and

[01:04:27] whenever I see someone's downloaded one of the first two I just cringe a little bit I'm like no

[01:04:32] but then I also think well no one really cares this is the thing right but she went in your

[01:04:36] independent and I think this is definitely true of filmmakers like whenever I see a short

[01:04:40] by watching the one you do you give so much leeway is an audience so that person because you

[01:04:46] understand they're not professional or they don't have multi million dollar budgets behind them

[01:04:54] so you lower the bar as an audience member you just kind of go oh and not in a negative way you

[01:05:00] just accept they have limitations that's fine I'm not going to be worried about that whereas I think

[01:05:07] it stands out more if you are watching a multi million dollar production and the VFX

[01:05:11] interrible all the dialogues awful all the acting's atrocious that's when it stands out to you because

[01:05:16] you go these these people should know better these people have the time in the money

[01:05:22] whereas like you said you and your mates making a thing in the back in nowhere in like a week

[01:05:28] and you're shooting it on your iPhone and you upload it to YouTube most people's response that will

[01:05:34] they're play you made that that's cool I'm on board and then like you said as you go you get better

[01:05:40] that's anything isn't it it's the more you learn the more you do it the more you go okay I need to be

[01:05:46] aware of this in the future but yeah I love what you're saying Matt I think is a great

[01:05:49] sentiment to people if you combine anyone listening absolutely like you want to get involved just

[01:05:54] start just give it a go. It's such a cliche thing but it's genuinely true and you're right about

[01:05:58] the air course because sequel I've been going now since 2017 and we always say the jump on point is

[01:06:06] series five which is 2020 because we had so many different it's we changed format always things

[01:06:12] what are the first thing we recorded on one yet you might phone it on a glass table in an echo

[01:06:16] of room with five of us all talking and it was a nightmare but the key thing is because we were

[01:06:23] earnest about it and then that whole I mentioned about being me through to yourself because we

[01:06:26] were passionate about it and enthusiastic and all these things come out even though it's a recording

[01:06:35] that's you know very tiny very ropey doesn't sound good we all talk over each other etc etc

[01:06:39] people you know bang things at the background that doesn't necessarily matter because the passion

[01:06:44] shines through all that stuff and that is absolutely true of like early videos and only works

[01:06:50] it doesn't yeah I mean I'm sure Martin's course as he sees mean streets and goes on

[01:06:53] and go get it a lot better now it's like yeah but for somebody that's a favorite film because

[01:06:58] hundred percent I'm sure I'm sure Spielberg would do jewels oh yeah with like modern technology

[01:07:03] you've run it but like yeah yeah probably but that's the thing that's the thing right is it's

[01:07:09] and like you said sometimes those are great examples like it's sometimes the fact that there is a

[01:07:14] little bit of that shine there's a little bit of like kind of grubbiness that sort of like

[01:07:20] indie feel to them and again mentioned earlier George Lucas the whole reediting

[01:07:24] a new hope yeah to the point now where like the original original cut is like gold dust if you

[01:07:30] can get a copy of it and you might go but why you can have this shiny and you an improved version

[01:07:34] it's like because the old one had charm the old one had that feeling like you said passion

[01:07:39] born more importantly it had passion it didn't matter that some of the effects were a bit shaky

[01:07:45] or like you know like people are walking into doors or whatever it just it kind of gives you that

[01:07:51] feel because you look at it and again there's an audience member you're not an idiot you just go yeah

[01:07:53] this is made in the 70s I'm like a you know on a budget where you know and it was sort of

[01:07:59] stronger long and the director didn't know what he was doing it was his first film you kind of

[01:08:04] subconsciously calculate all of those things go here but it is still a bit of fun it's still Star Wars

[01:08:09] it's still that the story comes through I enjoy watching yeah it doesn't matter why is he

[01:08:13] that you say they're over polishing the over worrying about it about going you know oh yeah I

[01:08:18] can get this just right I mean again music that's a classic thing of you know like you said earlier

[01:08:24] oh can you play this oh no you know I just I haven't got the right equipment or I haven't

[01:08:28] noted it's like you'll never put an album out if you just constantly worry all the time about it being

[01:08:33] good enough it's like just record the down thing and put it at the same with 100% like just pick up

[01:08:38] a camera and you know because if you think is what what you assume is going to be good or

[01:08:44] being the highest quality thing is is fleeting taking George Lucas as a prime example at some point

[01:08:52] he thought that I've done it I've got all the money all the power I'm about to do the pre-calls

[01:08:57] and you know what I'm gonna redo the Star Wars special editions I'm gonna fix all the problems

[01:09:02] and you watch this the first wave of the special editions because I mean he changed the

[01:09:09] hold and put the jab of the hot scene in like old people in the scene this is cool and the

[01:09:15] I think it's like five different times you try to fix it because obviously there's a scene where

[01:09:20] jab was just a dude in a waistcoat effectively and then he began his big slow monster

[01:09:24] Han so I saw what behind him is all how do I do with this and I can use the technology it looks it looks

[01:09:29] 90 cg night every time it's all over all the other my favorite the elder Harrison Ford's

[01:09:36] it's just moving yeah yeah with a literally just a thing yeah it's so funny but that's the

[01:09:43] thing isn't it like you said it it then becomes a point of parody yeah because it's like yeah

[01:09:48] and it's like it's fixing a problem it doesn't it's new you hear you had all the money all the

[01:09:53] resources he had at the time and it was like well I'm now gonna fix all the problems and in the end

[01:09:56] creative more problems there's a film from 2007 I think it's on Amazon Prime in the UK at least

[01:10:04] and it's called The Man from Earth um it is a very much a cult film by by Shankman

[01:10:13] and it is a really scrappy film so there's garbage shankman directed it and it's based on a script

[01:10:23] by the guy I think you do a lot of toilets and writing and really simple premise and really

[01:10:31] of its time direction and camera quality etc etc so it looks quite you know cheap

[01:10:38] made for TV almost it's basically one log cabin um handful of familiar actors like Tony Todd and

[01:10:44] things go oh yeah yeah and the premise is there's one guy who works at the university and he's about

[01:10:49] to leave town and his friends don't understand why and he agrees have a little send off and

[01:10:54] I was kind of trying to sneak away but yeah I'll come in and it looks like just an episode of

[01:10:59] a 90s TV series looks quite cheap yeah but holy hell it will grip you it never needs to be

[01:11:06] read done it never needs to be done again in a different way and it will the conversations

[01:11:13] and the performances are captivating because the idea is this guy says what would happen if a man

[01:11:20] say from like the paleo that they gave her as a caveman was still around today what do you

[01:11:26] be like and you know they have different fields of science these people have been studying in

[01:11:32] and they go well I'm actually to be like you know re-strong this I know that and then it turns out

[01:11:36] that the guy in question their friend is said man he is in fact someone who has just been living

[01:11:41] as a caveman ever since and they're like no okay I don't believe that that's nonsense um

[01:11:47] but the conversations are fascinating the the the drive behind the central conceit of the story

[01:11:52] you immediately forgive the quality of the film I think there's a herd people get over and

[01:11:57] they're a handful of them one is like I can't watch this film it's a black and white

[01:12:00] I can't watch this film this the score is really old fashioned and you know a bit over the top

[01:12:06] but once you get past that and get to the storytelling aspect and you just go ah it's a film

[01:12:10] from you know whenever um you can be drawn into all kinds of stories and again that's the same

[01:12:17] with subtitles and an international film so I can't watch that from from career it's from somewhere

[01:12:23] in India I've got a lot of songs in it I don't want to watch it it's like you are cutting your own hands

[01:12:27] off you are depriving yourself really interesting storytelling but I mentioned earlier right

[01:12:34] at the start it's about the idea of travel that you know people experienced lives in different ways

[01:12:42] but there is a human connection a human element that is relatable that makes the story compelling

[01:12:48] and there are cultural points you don't understand so you find more films than the similar

[01:12:52] nature and tone and you learn more about that so suddenly get to Japanese and I'm gonna think

[01:12:57] why is this a thing over time why is this focus on all the time to because Japan's a collective

[01:13:03] society what do you mean okay and then you start learning more about people and then and the

[01:13:07] anthropological side of things right and that's the power of cinema I've mentioned this in

[01:13:11] into your previously which is the the real power for me for cinema is telling stories throughout time

[01:13:20] despite never meeting the people you're telling the story too it is a medium with which to

[01:13:24] communicate something yeah powerful thing that is true to you now that can be literally the most

[01:13:28] important story of the day the most important political narrative you want to say or it can be

[01:13:33] a fart joke both of those things are perfectly human and will be honest to you and that's what

[01:13:41] you want to send over there and it's like I you know I wanted to tell the story because

[01:13:45] important I wanted to tell what it was like being this kind of person living this kind of time

[01:13:49] I wanted to think about this or totally I wanted to give someone a break or a release from

[01:13:54] living that kind of life and given something was relaxing or calming or funny or something that

[01:13:59] would really have a chance to decompress and not worry about their own problems for a little while

[01:14:05] and once you have that backbone in in filmmaking as it were you can kind of do anything because

[01:14:12] you realize why you're doing it you realize that you're telling these stories because

[01:14:16] you want to see if you can you want to see what this means you find someone else who has a similar

[01:14:21] perspective than what's the same story to you you end up changing things up as a strange example

[01:14:27] the web series I mentioned is called Superppy Kiltime and it's a it's a live action animator

[01:14:32] it's very cartoony and a lot of people go oh I don't know kind of my I'm not really

[01:14:35] I'm not aware where these are probably like the show I said no it's fine you will

[01:14:38] it's a cartoon it's basically a live action cartoon where cartoon physics exists

[01:14:43] you know it was a character who gets a bullet through the head and they go oh no

[01:14:49] and there's a big hole for a while at very Tom and Jerry sort of style stuff but there are also

[01:14:54] tons and tons of tropes and references that if you are into that sort of thing there's all

[01:15:00] kinds of stuff and also tons of cultural bits that like oh I keep feeling that experience the act

[01:15:05] as this is this because of anime and this is this because of jippet japanese culture and that's

[01:15:09] why we're doing it this way and so on and so forth and there's something about the process

[01:15:15] of how I write the script which is very different to how I used to write scripts I used to

[01:15:19] be very militant and like this is a little diet line dollar try and get it right try and get it right

[01:15:24] let's go again we want to get this right because it's important it's said in this particular way

[01:15:27] because I wrote it in this particular way and that is true for certain projects but that time

[01:15:33] time loop movie the language had to be very precise because it was an a Shakespearean style

[01:15:39] dialogue and because of the nature of repeating the same lines over and over in the same way

[01:15:44] there was a rhythm to it there's a whole thing you had to do in so a way so I had to be a

[01:15:47] certain way with it but I have a thing that some the cast either really look forward to or really

[01:15:54] hate you which is there'll be a series of dialogue pages in the script and then there'll be a character's

[01:16:01] name and a little lastricus asterisk and I'll say quip quip is my show hand for I haven't written

[01:16:08] the punch line for this joke so rather than just saying yeah here's the story yeah this is this

[01:16:16] and I always say like you know as long as you get these beats down you'll make it your own

[01:16:21] do what you want to do so yeah I work with people who are very clever who are very talented

[01:16:24] and very funny yeah yeah so I lean on them to be funny but not in a absolutely and there are

[01:16:31] things I need them to say and like you know this bits and Japanese you need to say like this or

[01:16:34] that kind of stuff um but having the freedom to then change things up saying no no no that's funny

[01:16:41] we're gonna go with that now yeah because like rather me writing all the jokes it's one voice

[01:16:46] giving these people the room to actually make something and I think that's something that

[01:16:49] um I've noticed with this particular project and other things I work on

[01:16:55] the people and this is uh no no no I'm not gonna apologize I also am not gonna apologize

[01:17:01] I'm because I'm a battle for um comping myself that's a really hard thing for an Irish person to do

[01:17:08] basically um people want to work with me

[01:17:14] even same as I was really hard for some of these like sort of self-aggrandizing

[01:17:19] douche but um the idea is it's just a reality map and that's just a reality

[01:17:25] and that's cool and that's a compliment yeah we'll roll with it yeah

[01:17:29] and so subsequently I create an environment where people can

[01:17:32] play an experiment and have fun with things and

[01:17:36] really you know try different things and I will still say like you know no I want this or no we don't have

[01:17:42] time to do that no we're good we can move on I've got the shot I need I'm happy yeah

[01:17:47] but other times where I'm like no no no no I trust you I think we can make this funny I

[01:17:52] could think we can do this whatever um it's such etc and the biggest compliment to me

[01:17:58] to come back to that thing I was saying earlier about that I'll watch your big break

[01:18:01] don't believe in um the biggest mark of success will me personally and I've maintained this for

[01:18:09] a very very long time now is not oh I've got a million views oh I've gone viral oh I've got so many

[01:18:17] subscribers oh I've just been offered a contract with the film thingy I've had all these things

[01:18:21] happened in different respects and different projects um and they all amount to the exact same

[01:18:27] thing which is and now I'm back to square one yeah because you think to yourself you know if you want

[01:18:31] to keep that audience subscribe a basis up you have to be hitting certain style things over and

[01:18:38] over now doing very what would be algorithmically friendly similar content um if you got a video

[01:18:44] that's did really well as a one viral hit that doesn't tend to mean anything doesn't translate into

[01:18:49] kind of opportunities may want them to especially you know tick-tock age where it's just

[01:18:53] everything's forgotten about within a couple of instances yeah and and similarly you know

[01:19:00] winning awards I've won best comedy best show best director best period peace

[01:19:07] all kinds of stuff and there are times you go business me I think because you want to write

[01:19:12] your own successes and you go back one back to square one now what do we do now I'm back to

[01:19:17] I need to have a blank page and do any script or a new project because it never ends that's why

[01:19:21] that you know oh I want an Oscar fantastic what do I do now so now you're back on the job

[01:19:27] I may need to find another film more I think and thankfully doors do open for people they they

[01:19:31] I'm I'm very grateful for the successes I'm very lucky with the success I've had

[01:19:35] because being in a award winning filmmaker doing these things and doing stuff over and over and over again

[01:19:41] you get a bit of um a rhythm down and a bit of experience and people do want to

[01:19:47] look to your expertise and you get different stories you want to tell but as I said before the biggest

[01:19:56] mark of success for me is that I have I have a literal army of people

[01:20:02] who if I said I'm working on a project they wouldn't be able to get to the end of the sense

[01:20:07] of what I'd say can I be in it can I help out can I do anything to be involved

[01:20:13] because they know that the experience is going to be a positive one

[01:20:17] that will be an interesting tale no matter what it is whether it's a serious piece whether it's a funny

[01:20:22] piece whether it's just more anything and super big kill time is a prime example because unlike a

[01:20:28] a regular thing where I'm telling one story I did a film called Miraina which hasn't been released yet

[01:20:35] so short film I shot ages because the pandemic I didn't want to get to festivals and then

[01:20:38] have no one see it yeah it's about two conkisitors lost in central America and they are crazy

[01:20:45] start resulting to eating local wildlife gone a bit of a weird self-mascistic kind of

[01:20:51] journey as it were hmm that's a very serious piece and very different to other things yeah

[01:20:57] but super big kill time is a thing where I was like okay I've learned the lessons of

[01:21:02] the first web series we made I can't be in it because I need to be behind the camera means

[01:21:07] I need to trust a load of actors now I can't pay anybody because that's not kind of production

[01:21:11] we're working on this scale I can't say much like linkedly to doing boyhood I can't lock you in and

[01:21:16] say we're doing this for the next eight years right so I'm like would you be interested and if

[01:21:22] you are interested we're going to craft this character together what do you want to play I'll

[01:21:27] write the story I need to know what you all what you want to do because you're gonna be

[01:21:32] committing this for a superior time I'm just hand this to you and felt you have no ownership of it

[01:21:38] so for example my friend Ben he'd been in a few of my peats but both series I had the short films

[01:21:45] and he said I kind of want to be a James Bond spy type I said yep absolutely we can

[01:21:49] absolutely that instead of I want to be really bad at it yes yes we can absolutely do that

[01:21:54] so we made his whole character and then he found his voice for it being a very matte

[01:21:57] berry style delivery of dialogue and he enjoys playing the character as other actor and

[01:22:03] Michael and Moira who did a lot of theatre work and other short films stuff with us and

[01:22:09] she wants to be this cool assassin with like tricked out with guns and stuff and but also

[01:22:15] cat in anime cat people exist yeah I said yep we can I can't do that and when it came to

[01:22:23] the principal eight members of cast but a huge thing but I designed it so it was big ensemble because then

[01:22:29] I wouldn't have to be bothering people all the time I wouldn't be like you need to be on set

[01:22:32] you know multiple times of your own spare time multiple days off etc etc so it was like

[01:22:39] do you have a couple of hours on whatever day yep great we'll do a bit of filming it be fun we'll

[01:22:43] go out to the woods we'll go out to an abandoned shoe factory all this kind of stuff and

[01:22:47] would get these shots a big great and had a lot of fun with it and then they'd hear nothing for

[01:22:54] seven eight months and I say hey you free again yeah and when I raised the first couple of episodes

[01:23:01] Amber who's one of the actors who do only done YouTube stuff at that point and she was very nervous

[01:23:05] about it all because they were like film and short film stuff actors and theatre actors and she was like

[01:23:11] I don't feel like I belong and obviously I said no no it'll be great that'll be wonderful

[01:23:16] and we wrote her character to really prep up to her strengths yeah and she was great she was

[01:23:20] she was phenomenally good um and when we came to the end of production on certain things

[01:23:29] I would be convinced I was wasting people's time or upset in them or annoying them or whatever

[01:23:34] because again self-largeisation but I said we had a huge day filming I said to Moira specifically

[01:23:41] that's it your character's wrapped she's done and she said oh like today is it no no that's it

[01:23:48] we have everything we need from this character she is now wrapped I hope this point should be doing it

[01:23:52] for four or five years and I mean I don't mean like four or five years every day like what

[01:23:55] a day job stuff I mean like you know every seven right months there'd be a message for me saying

[01:24:02] hey you free on a certain day and we'd go basically play yeah and have a fun time with these very silly

[01:24:10] and she did always enjoy themselves but specifically why I didn't appreciate what's

[01:24:15] excited load of shots you need to get done that day I started in what's called mouse holding

[01:24:19] knowledge filming on the hillside near a prison then I had to film in a park then I filmed in a shop

[01:24:24] and I'd load anything's a different cast moving around and I was like get this things done in one

[01:24:27] day probably so I was like thanks repression it I'll speak to you later bye bye. I didn't know she

[01:24:32] went home and cried and I felt terrible and it was because she loves playing in the

[01:24:39] character and didn't want to stop playing the character she liked the open ended be able to return

[01:24:43] to this thing and work on different projects and also because she enjoyed the project as it is

[01:24:49] it's always the opportunity of doing more so we recently shot almost like three or four weeks ago

[01:24:54] on the latest spin off and an actor friend of mine said as the day was wine you'd ask

[01:25:01] it's right we're done he said he's going through the script desperately saying I think

[01:25:05] I'm got the shots it oh we don't need their shock because this bit worked here really well

[01:25:08] I know we've got this character tied down the middle of the room and it's a sort of a band

[01:25:12] and factory with his big you know steel girders and you know it looks fantastic but his voice

[01:25:18] echoing reverberating I was going to cut away to him like close ups of him doing stuff like

[01:25:24] you know his character as his all bound up from a from an injury and and he's taking pain

[01:25:31] medication etc etc he's very medicing very cartoony medicing and it medicing and very

[01:25:36] over the top but still good and he's we haven't got the shots yet and I said we don't need him

[01:25:39] because the voice is so good and the reaction of the person listening to it I could already see

[01:25:44] in my head from the edit I had a sort of proto version when I was writing it but when the

[01:25:48] performance starts coming like that's what's going to look like fantastic he was desperate to find

[01:25:53] anything to keep playing the character because of course when I stopped talking he was also wrapped he was

[01:25:58] and I said said before that level of commitment that level of wanting to be involved no matter

[01:26:03] what it is and how small the part is my friend Jamie who drove across the country a week before

[01:26:10] his his partner gave birth to his first child and I'm like yeah it's like to be in my web series

[01:26:17] you sure yet now I'm gonna make this work I'm like okay thanks I appreciate it

[01:26:23] because when you have that environment you're creating not only one where it's like fun or you

[01:26:31] know whatever but the idea that you have the space to be creative to be to try something different

[01:26:37] too but it's infectious and then you go back to your day job wherever it is and you go

[01:26:43] yeah I don't yeah and the same way let's just to get the the spot laughs myself for a second here

[01:26:51] you are like you reached out and said you know would you be up to doing another

[01:26:56] guest spot and I'm a hundred percent without fail I'm either because you're a nice charming person

[01:27:01] working with you as fantastic you make it very very easy for the listener a sort of a deep

[01:27:05] of the guest to come on and do other things very clear instructions and it's that level of

[01:27:09] understanding you've got from like what episode one all the way to hey I am I tell them this in

[01:27:14] advance need to get this in place I'll put this on a Google drive speaking them more accessible

[01:27:18] yeah so lessons learned and the experience of you listening and and you know being responsive

[01:27:25] and feeding questions it's a very natural rapport and if you bring that level of creativity and

[01:27:31] collaboration to whatever you're working on you'll find people be literally bending themselves into

[01:27:38] pretzels back over just to work with you and make schedules work very well said and um yeah

[01:27:47] I'm just sitting with that compliment and accepting it thank you it's now it's true and I

[01:27:51] I am very very much appreciative of that I genuinely blows my mind I have that thought every single

[01:27:56] time when I invite a returning guest on and the response is always absolutely and I'm just like oh

[01:28:03] good I must have done something right but yeah and I like you say I love to hear that from your

[01:28:09] set and stuff I think that's great genuinely because we've talked about this so many times on this podcast

[01:28:15] I think about time I spoke with Jack about an example and breaking bad as an example

[01:28:20] or any of the sitcoms I've done you know the ones that are long running and really successful those kind of

[01:28:24] ongoing shows part of what makes those ones so successful is the fact that they're very clearly

[01:28:33] is a good environment on set right and you hear that all the time when you hear these entities

[01:28:37] behind the scenes just how much they enjoyed being there how much they enjoyed playing the character

[01:28:42] working with these directors working with these writers and so on and so forth and I think it

[01:28:48] comes down to two things man I think it comes down to two things that you've mentioned which is one

[01:28:53] allowing that element of play because ultimately that's what you're doing whenever you create

[01:28:58] anything artistic is your playing um and two is best idea wins you know there's not having

[01:29:05] any ego not having the no no no this is how I've written it or that's how I've set up the

[01:29:10] shot this is what you know this is what we're doing yeah it's having that freedom to go

[01:29:15] what did you just do yeah again oh oh actually yeah I like you say like going do

[01:29:20] what now we don't need that entire scene or we can you know start showing up and going I've got

[01:29:25] this in mind for this set this action set piece whatever is then having someone go

[01:29:31] if you just do it this way you might actually have might look cooler and then but having that trust right

[01:29:37] having that trust and that freedom of creativity and that collaborations sort of bounce off each other

[01:29:42] yeah I think that's a perfect mix and especially for filmmaking I the impression I get listening

[01:29:47] to you listening to lots of people that do it is that is what you need to have is that environment right

[01:29:53] this is a safe space there are no bad ideas worst case scenario you try something it doesn't work

[01:30:00] you go never mind we'll just go back to whatever this is best case scenario you discover something

[01:30:06] in the moment and go got it really and let's move on yeah 100% I think that you see that

[01:30:13] reflected I mean for obviously for listeners thinking themselves yeah it's cool and all but I don't

[01:30:17] know these people for for an example you know Hollywood example should we say you see it all the time

[01:30:26] you may not think you do but you do see it all the time in frequent collaborations yes so when you see

[01:30:33] the fact that school says he has worked with dinner and the caprio so many times yeah there is a

[01:30:39] reason for it you're going to have a stonem stone recently because they have a trust and a report

[01:30:46] that works well up until a point you think yourself these two inseparable because they push each other

[01:30:52] challenge each other but they can do things in interesting ways a quite in terms of you know in

[01:30:57] Sammel Jackson for example he will always turn up in his films as always find time for him because

[01:31:02] they have a good working relationship but also on top of that they have a voice that keeps each other in

[01:31:07] check and there are some and in case and point I don't it'd be hard to predict you know

[01:31:13] oh I can't imagine an you know ex person working with another person until you see it you think

[01:31:18] actually know that works out really well and it's the same thing behind the scenes with them

[01:31:22] in the same way that you were to hear about the opposite where it's like he goes and

[01:31:27] people make it a wrong time in their lives and things falling apart and being out that's a nightmare

[01:31:33] and it's it's it can go too far absolutely you can see the it gets a bit too

[01:31:41] you just go it comes too safe and you end up with yeah weirdly enough Adam Sandler

[01:31:49] um and I was a bit of a bit of a no no I think I know you're going with this be I gone yeah Adam Sandler

[01:31:57] is fascinating in many ways um I him on one hand with his buddies and he's like what are you

[01:32:03] into doing I'm making a film with Steve Asshermy and Kevin James and Rob Schneider because they're my mates and

[01:32:08] I'm gonna have a bit of fun and I don't care and Chris Rocks here too and he's my mate and he's like

[01:32:13] okay and only good now they're all crap but except for hotel transfer but specifically um it's like

[01:32:21] oh well he's just a bad actor I was like no now go watch uncut gems and oh my god it's

[01:32:25] making an act exactly I was punch drunk love and I'm like he can really act like I know

[01:32:30] you know who's supposed to be in glorious past it didn't work out so what yeah yeah yeah that's

[01:32:35] it and and and you end up limiting people but you also create stuff that is just

[01:32:43] I'm gonna go on a holiday with my friends and happen to make a movie in the process and we've

[01:32:46] begrudge people doing that because it can be trash but you don't have to watch it that's the thing

[01:32:52] that's the other side of it I mean again I'll see qualises we've shredded things like um

[01:32:58] grownups to them Paul Blarp more cult too because they are bad movies terrible movies but at the

[01:33:03] same time it's because we usually frustrated that these are actually individuals with good talent

[01:33:09] well being wasted and there's the thing I always say was like oh yeah but that person's terrible

[01:33:13] there is at least one movie it hasn't always been made yet but there's one movie where that person is

[01:33:20] the absolute perfect person in that role at that time and just everyone I'm gonna how much you

[01:33:25] hate them or don't it pit like there's stuff on camera their style there'll be a performance

[01:33:30] that is perfect for them again it's like oh Adam Sandler I don't I don't uh I don't get on with

[01:33:34] Adam Sandler okay have you tried you know did you like Big Daddy yeah I really big Daddy's

[01:33:39] like well then there's an example of him doing his job well there just he didn't make that come

[01:33:44] to the nape you have to see on cut gems same so I would like that's someone doing it

[01:33:48] pulling a different lever isn't one of try a different thing and uh you think about actors to get

[01:33:53] like resurgence is I mean I just thought of my head I think like acting with Conahe right

[01:33:58] yeah but yeah this was just tight cast as like the pretty guy and you know they're not a name yeah exactly

[01:34:04] and you know he's in all these terrible romantic comedies and whatever and then he turns

[01:34:08] Ryan and wins an Oscar you're like wait hang on what and then you sort of see the performance

[01:34:12] and you go oh he's really good and you're like yeah because he's an actor because it's what they do

[01:34:18] and like you said going back to what you were saying earlier there's so many moving parts right

[01:34:22] and filmmaking there you just don't know the circumstances it could be that a director an actor

[01:34:27] whatever is just on a train of just they're going from job job as you said earlier

[01:34:34] probably not enjoying it maybe whatever it's just a paycheck and then one day just by sheer chance

[01:34:40] that one role that one performance whatever it is script just happens to land at the right time

[01:34:46] and they can do it and then you go oh oh this is what the person's capable of but yeah it's just

[01:34:54] yeah it's fascinating to watch I agree with you totally yeah and I'm sad I was a great example of

[01:34:58] that at 100% yeah if somebody that like like you said you can just does a lot of the netflix

[01:35:03] trash comedy is whatever and hey there's space for that I know people that love those movies

[01:35:07] sure and I have a lot of affection for those people but I don't understand their choices

[01:35:11] but you know at the same time yeah I wouldn't turn around to say that Adam Sandler's a terrible actor

[01:35:16] is like he's not he's very capable he's very good and while the character apparently quite nice

[01:35:21] to work with again he think like why do people come back to it because they must enjoy it

[01:35:26] I mean one week and talk about Matt I know being the same page here Zack Snyder you know

[01:35:33] now I genuinely thought about this to say I don't understand why people keep going back and

[01:35:38] working with him and do it that he gets all these big name actors and then it just occurs

[01:35:41] to me the day oh it must be because he's nice to work with it must be because there's some appeal

[01:35:47] about working with him otherwise people wouldn't show up in these films and you know like

[01:35:53] him or love him whatever I'd already care but you know there's an audience for it and whatever

[01:35:57] but again the crucially the guy clearly knows how to work well with actors and clearly gets on

[01:36:03] with people and is polite and affordable enough that certain actors just keep coming back and

[01:36:08] working with him and you're like fair enough do you not fair enough whether you like his movies or

[01:36:12] not I credit it's you yeah I think there's it's a really weird one because if you take Zack Snyder

[01:36:21] um he's the kind of creator who is really really frustrating for me because I remember watching

[01:36:28] the uh the remake of Dawn of the Dead and thank you it was fantastic I really enjoyed it

[01:36:35] I thought it was a very different very early 2000s take on on a classic um I thought it was

[01:36:40] an opportunity for that they deserve to be like 300 it's a very unique looking movie um

[01:36:45] very signature dramatic in many ways obviously um but then he very quickly starts to be absorbed

[01:36:52] by his own legend and with rebel moon parts one and two terrible movies by terrible moon um

[01:37:02] and all of his skills and abilities seem lost even though he is writer director producer

[01:37:08] director of talk we actually camera operator sort of stuff he has all full powerful ultimate control

[01:37:14] maybe that's not good that's part of our maps it part of all and also if he was trip back

[01:37:19] and had less things he'd be able to create more interesting stuff but at some stage just like

[01:37:22] well this would be a good opportunity for me whereas someone I David O. Russell who um director

[01:37:28] things like three kings and um silver linings playbook and right american awesome stuff he is a

[01:37:37] I don't see it like allegedly allegedly for this he's a terrible person to work with he's awful

[01:37:42] because he is the kind of person who screams and shout to actors and creates a very hostile

[01:37:50] environment uh George clenese known as one of the most affordable people in Hollywood who

[01:37:55] will give everybody the time of day came close to punching them in the face on three kings um

[01:38:00] but people still work with David Russell and it's like well I can't just be because you know this

[01:38:05] some blackmail I'd done on somebody give us an eye it comes down to yes but silver linings playbook

[01:38:10] is a good movie and um it uh it garnered Oscar award stuff and um more you know not just

[01:38:23] critical and commercial success but it gave the actors a chance to create things in different

[01:38:27] interesting ways and so that's what you end up with something like Amsterdam which came in 2022

[01:38:32] which has um Christian bail and margaroppy and john day with Washington and you're like

[01:38:38] he's a phenomenal talent and this guy is a proven why are you working with it?

[01:38:45] It's like because he gets results um and this is where you end up with this uh and I've jack

[01:38:51] from the podcast mentioned this is quite a lot there's a trifecta of um I think it might

[01:38:56] mean Neil Gamer said this but um I don't know a lot people have said the same sort of stuff

[01:39:01] which is uh there are three pillars which is um B uh on time be good and be affordable

[01:39:11] and if you're not one of those the other two will prop you up so if you're not if you're expensive

[01:39:16] but you're on time and you're nice you make the cost work if you're not very pleasant but you're

[01:39:22] affordable and um and you're on time people go yeah but it gets the job done and if you're

[01:39:31] if you're not on time you're you're like always coming in late with these things but you're a nice

[01:39:35] person and you're a good price you make the exception and that's true of so many things in life

[01:39:40] and yeah if you have all three you are the kind of filmmaker or artist in general um who will just

[01:39:47] keep working forever seemingly but if you only have one of those things chances are you're going to

[01:39:52] have run to a dead end real quickly yeah yeah that's a really good point yeah definitely something to

[01:39:56] keep in mind and especially the thinking about terms of being a director right because such a fascinating

[01:40:02] thing is like as a kid I suppose you're not really aware of what a director is for like you see that

[01:40:06] on a film poster or whatever and you're just like yeah you know i for the longest time thought

[01:40:10] oh that's the person that points the camera no um i mean by by biological directing you think you

[01:40:16] direct with the camera goes oh yeah yeah technically there is an element of absolutely but yeah so

[01:40:21] much of it is managing the story and managing the accident and doing all of that stuff so

[01:40:27] yeah you would think logically people skills is something that you even if you don't inherently

[01:40:32] have it you should invest time in learning that I have it because as we've said so many times

[01:40:38] there are multiple moving parts in a film and all of them involve people so if you want to get

[01:40:44] the best out of people boiler alert the best way to do that is not to scream and shout it in

[01:40:49] a little bit but to be nice and to try and work with them and like we were saying earlier maybe even

[01:40:55] developing understanding of their role and what it is and why it matters so that when you then go

[01:41:01] I need to problem solve xyz because that's my understanding as well and correct me from

[01:41:06] wrong but like directing a lot of it is problem solving oh 100 is a gap so let's go again I've got this

[01:41:10] idea and then as you said earlier here's a number of reasons why that's not going to work

[01:41:15] and you have to go ah okay how do I get around that well the easiest way to do that is

[01:41:20] lean on other people and how you're going to do that if you burn all your bridges and upset

[01:41:24] everybody in the first five minutes of being on set yeah no you're absolutely right the the problem

[01:41:29] solving and creative thinking is the number one issue up there with people skills because you

[01:41:37] have to be able to figure everything out and then you have to be able to convey it to people

[01:41:41] if you have one struggle with one of the other don't do directing um because you you are

[01:41:47] again it's like here is a perfect script either you've written it or someone else's written

[01:41:51] you're going to bring it to life cool first problem how do we do that and then you have

[01:41:56] like get through the whole we need to get all the background elements in place we need to get

[01:41:59] all the crew who are going to be able to bring this to life in place then you need to get all the

[01:42:04] actual cast in place who are going to be the best people to fit to you know bring these characters to

[01:42:11] then you need to manage your aspect of just time management trying to figure out how long it

[01:42:17] will take to film these things what the locations are what you can fit in a day what the actors

[01:42:21] can do in a day and give them the room to just go if you think so well this will take 10 minutes

[01:42:26] to film because it's a 10 minutes to read it that's that's not how that works because they'll need to

[01:42:31] multiple takes multiple angles multiple get into the right mindset some moments and really find the

[01:42:36] character find the line wherever happened to be and that's before you things like things going wrong

[01:42:41] and that's the next stage of problem solving things don't work out people get sick suddenly the

[01:42:47] sun goes away there's a car outside and it's not a fact of car it's a van full of builders and

[01:42:53] then I'm going to start working on the road and think oh god is that in the audio you can't hear

[01:42:58] the people speaking anymore great okay so you have to think of on your toes and they do you pull

[01:43:03] the plug and come back into another day do you try and work around do you find a different room in

[01:43:08] the building or do you try and go to a different area what are your options and that level of

[01:43:12] problem solving then carries into the post production of like oh god we didn't get the shot

[01:43:18] it doesn't make any sense do you try and re-shoots something do you find is something the edit is

[01:43:21] are cut away can you use um problem solving with the music is it necessary to have music

[01:43:27] visual effects blah blah blah then you get the nightmare releasing the thing gain it to an audience

[01:43:33] in the first place is that going to be in festivals is it going to be online is it going to be promoted

[01:43:37] are you going to create materials like trailers ads um you know posted web apps to be

[01:43:45] all this stuff comes into it and it never stops and then you reset back to us said before oh great

[01:43:51] it's now done back to square one blank page now to solve all the problems again

[01:43:55] problem being what story am I going to tell next it never ends yeah um and as I say once you've

[01:44:03] figured out those problems you need to convey to people and they can't be able to make a case of

[01:44:06] great well you can just talk louder or you can barely listen an hour ago right to saying

[01:44:10] or fix it in post it's like nothing's getting fixed in post don't lie to yourself yeah if

[01:44:14] if it's bugger now it's bugger later as well um they're happy accidents are a great moments of just

[01:44:20] things working out in fascinating ways um but that's always the case and you have to

[01:44:27] have it all in your head of what it can be as well as what you want it to be because if you have

[01:44:32] this idea I mentioned it about the marry and etting if you have an idea of what people are going

[01:44:35] to do for performance yeah and then you expect and they do something different you then have to check

[01:44:42] yourself of am I stopping that performance and am I trying to change it because

[01:44:48] it's not right for the character or for the because they're stepping out of short wherever it happens

[01:44:53] to be or am I doing this because I had it my head already and I want to sort of fit them into a box

[01:44:57] to make it one thing yeah and again I think you can you can see that in certain films right where

[01:45:04] maybe maybe look at the acting and go oh this feels really still to the really bit but I know

[01:45:08] that person's a good actor and it's like well chances are this director was overstepping their boundaries

[01:45:12] and telling them exactly what to do and how to say it and do all of this like yes but that person's

[01:45:17] not an actor so like you said now you're marrying asing puppeting these people it's like

[01:45:22] that's why it feels still to do weird because a person didn't let the other person do their job

[01:45:28] I've got a prime example here it's very big example as well and a very clear one from

[01:45:34] recent memory um Tica what TT oh yes yeah so his career is obviously fascinating and various degrees

[01:45:45] here himself is like anything you mentioned a person on a podcast then weekly they are very

[01:45:49] problematic so you know if you pray someone or not it's always very difficult but just talk about the

[01:45:54] work for a second um in the course of a few years he made Thor Ragnarok Jojo Rabbit and Thor Love

[01:46:04] and Thunder and there is such a wild erratic back and forth those all of Ragnarok comes out

[01:46:14] and people say this is one of the best MCU film it's got the right level of humor it's so colourful

[01:46:19] it's so fun but so serious at the same time give us you know such a great set of characters

[01:46:24] a room to play and move. Hemsworth is doing stuff we haven't seen him do in this character this is fantastic

[01:46:32] 10 out of 10 brilliant then he goes off makes Jojo Rabbit and some people get on with it

[01:46:37] some people don't because the nature of it being you know etc well too and he himself was playing

[01:46:42] Hitler as a fictional version of the spoil's head but there's some storytelling in there and some

[01:46:47] visual stuff all I will say to those who have seen the film shoes and that'll be enough to trigger people

[01:46:52] yep amazing film racing and he said in an interview with people I think the way to the

[01:46:59] universe he was attending or something and he was saying no wants to hear this but basically you

[01:47:04] need to write a script and then put it away for a year and then bring it out and think that's terrible

[01:47:09] that's not a good at all rewrite it because you know in the moment it feels like a good first draft thing

[01:47:14] probably is that's not how the big machine of filmmaking works so you get Thor Love and Thunder

[01:47:20] and there are some really strong moments in there oh my god it's it's a mess and it goes too far too

[01:47:27] and things aren't finished and he's there giving some interview on YouTube and he's you know

[01:47:33] kind of out of it a bit with Tessa Thompson saying oh yeah the problem here is that we're just

[01:47:38] pretty bad visual effects it's like you're in charge don't be slating the people who work

[01:47:44] under you because you didn't get in the room to move or because Disney can strain to you this is on

[01:47:49] you mate that's that's not cool at all um James Corden and Rebel Will Sequoia the Oscars

[01:47:57] and uh doing the whole bit about cats and cats is herable movie but don't blame the visual effects

[01:48:02] people they were doing their job um yeah but yeah you guys were in it and terrible like yeah let's

[01:48:07] not blast it through it's a grown skin blasts 100% yeah absolutely that's how you burn bridges

[01:48:12] that tell you get a repetition for being you know difficult to work with in theory

[01:48:16] oh that's a very loaded term yeah but yeah when you get to the regular rock stuff I was

[01:48:19] sorry the the Thor Laman Thunder there's a moment where they're talking about uh a scene and

[01:48:23] they look at this particular thing and for some reason Tessa Thompson's character just juts for a second

[01:48:29] and she highlights this and says oh do you know what that is and he goes to no I've no idea

[01:48:33] because of that stage of the production is too big and it's kind of got away from him and so on

[01:48:36] it says you've got side-by-side shots where Natalie Paulman's character is film separately

[01:48:43] because she's being elongated because when she's Jane Foster's Thor she's wider and taller

[01:48:50] and bigger and you know it's this different presence um which means they've kind of filmed it

[01:48:55] in a different way but the footage they use of Tessa Thompson is from a take where she's not ready to

[01:48:59] start filming so she sort of just blurt's into life and he'd never noticed it because I was

[01:49:04] who wasn't paying attention to all these different things and Tessa Thompson looks the camera and

[01:49:07] says sometimes if you see an actor not being very good it's not always the actor's fault because

[01:49:10] the idea is like you know when is the camera rolling what are you doing yeah nobody knows they're

[01:49:15] making a bad fit well very few people know they're making a bad film when they're in the middle of

[01:49:19] it you can feel like it's out of your control you get a full like Tom Hardy on Mad Max

[01:49:24] theory road where he's being difficult because he doesn't understand it it's like you don't

[01:49:27] need to understand it I understand it I need you to do this but then you could be impecculent and a

[01:49:32] lot of stuff went to uh Charlize Theron in that case but yeah it is a sense of

[01:49:39] seeing an actor director like Takawa T.T. who you know you would say he needs to direct every single

[01:49:47] Marvel film now that's the tone when it gets going forward but then his own self acclaim strengths

[01:49:52] of yeah you put a script way for a year it's like well then I can't do the story I want to tell

[01:49:57] I'm forced into a sequel situation right yeah yeah yeah because you map out the next 10 years of

[01:50:03] short and so whatever in theory you know like you said then it becomes a thing of like you said earlier

[01:50:08] content yeah we have a really I always find it wild whenever a studio just goes this is the

[01:50:15] release date for this movie and you go oh okay so you must have filmed some of it no you're

[01:50:22] only gonna go ha there's a lemon it's like that's bold that's very bold that would be like me

[01:50:29] saying I'm gonna plant an episode on November 6th and you're going oh so you've recorded an

[01:50:34] edited it no and like but me but me going here's the episode title and here's who's gonna be in it

[01:50:40] yeah you know and here's how long it's gonna be everything you're like oh what's hmm i mean it's not

[01:50:44] impossible but it's it's never really yourself in the deep end you know it's very speculative it's

[01:50:50] not very speculative yeah yeah and especially for something like as you said earlier has so many

[01:50:55] moving parts and so many things can go wrong that's like wow talk about betting against yourself you

[01:51:01] know well this is actually and this is a good place to sort of and uh and an arc because it was

[01:51:08] so it's my own way do I start filmmaking what was inspiring me and then the gut punching reality so

[01:51:16] if i i mean i would always say so i would always say if you're interested in filmmaking whatever it is

[01:51:22] um it's part of the reason i do superpaculton the way i do um whereby i shoot it on a phone and that

[01:51:28] presents so many problems so it's a rod from my own back i did it so i could say to festivals and

[01:51:35] two audiences i did this on a phone do you have a phone then you can make something yeah okay it

[01:51:41] requires a lot of bits and pieces of the you know commitments and experience and yaddy yadda yadda

[01:51:46] but if you have it you have a tool ready you don't necessarily need some area like so it's going

[01:51:50] to cost you 25 grand or something stupid right you know you can just start now and it will

[01:51:56] it will still be in 4k it'll still look good you could make that work you can do something with that um

[01:52:02] but the gut punch on the other side of that is the thing i've experienced on a lot of different

[01:52:07] sets you always well when you get into filmmaking or any artistic medium arguably you're always

[01:52:14] convinced everybody is there because they love and have a passion for the thing whatever

[01:52:21] they love it if it's a musician it says they love music if it's if it's a poet it's because

[01:52:28] they love word play in the art of destruction of words yaddy yaddy yaddy yadda and then you get to a point

[01:52:35] of progression no matter what stage you're at where you realise that the industries

[01:52:40] respectively are all propped up by people who do not feel that way yeah it is just a job

[01:52:46] it is a way to make money i mean you know it will like bob i go uh i think it was him at least

[01:52:51] a Disney who said we're not in the business of making art when the business of making money if

[01:52:56] we have to make art along the way that's great like oh my god that's a that's a crushing thing

[01:53:01] to hear because everyone arguably getting their start up is trying to make art they are trying to

[01:53:08] tell a story they're trying to have fun they're trying to create something it's going to go that's

[01:53:11] cool boob boob um i like saver you know it's something expressive and interesting and

[01:53:18] it's not just oh i'm looking to get a mass distribution model for this bit of content and it

[01:53:25] becomes these weird you know very sterile terms and not to be well I'm not being political

[01:53:32] I'm quoting a politician before the general action in the UK rishi soon act for my prime minister

[01:53:39] was asked of what his um um uh his ideal job would be if it wasn't prime minister and he gave

[01:53:46] an honest answer but it did speak some media literacy and how some people do not understand films

[01:53:53] he said well yeah i'd love to say like you know jet and i or x-wing pilot but uh i think yeah

[01:53:59] being being in films it was being the film producer and i just went what in the hell are you talking

[01:54:05] what would you do for film make i do know because again he's a man and they're getting

[01:54:11] not talking about character personality etc but he is was a as a prime minister was rich of them the king

[01:54:18] yeah um brown scrupulous terms is like well you know in in star wars the bad guys the empire

[01:54:25] that's you don't think you understand what a story is mate um but equally it came down to the

[01:54:31] whole like i wouldn't be film which is like what would you what would you want to do in a film

[01:54:36] so what stories are you looking forward to telling what what about film and cinema draws you in

[01:54:42] is it because avatar made $3 billion yeah i'd be very worried it was money my dimension or just

[01:54:48] cause oh i like film i could do that rather than you know and and i have money i'll make that work

[01:54:54] and it's a strange idea there are people at the who's who just say i don't count what the film

[01:54:59] is i'm just here to turn up and do my job and then leave and for me personally someone who adore

[01:55:03] a cinema i'm like how can you do that i don't understand i don't understand how you could just

[01:55:08] turn up not care go yeah yeah but it's five for clock i'm i'm i'm so i've clocked it off now

[01:55:16] it's just a job and for me not to i mean again i've worked in retail i've worked in office jobs

[01:55:24] at the all kinds of things and i've always seen them as a means to an end they are to get

[01:55:29] me the money at the time off to make my creative stuff yeah um and even when i worked in animation

[01:55:36] studio for a period of time i was working with clients and they were like open university and

[01:55:40] harrods and all kinds of things and then we're making explainer videos for their company and i was like

[01:55:46] writing scripts and then they were going oh my don't know it's like yeah but i do know that's why

[01:55:50] you come to us um yeah and there's a professor at the university who was doing a book launch

[01:55:58] and and we're worried about how there's going to go out and i said no no it's going to great

[01:56:01] this'll work really well because of this and i explain myself and then you go okay no i've got

[01:56:05] them hooked they understand it now okay so that's it and i'm explained that same concept via video

[01:56:11] form to the audience that's how it's going to work and then you get someone like russianx i'm going

[01:56:16] to make movies and like what kind of movies are you making for some people it is a corporate

[01:56:21] conveyor belt it is just about yeah to make this many marvel films it doesn't matter who the character

[01:56:25] is which is going to make i think it's going to be profitable it's going to hit x-mount we're going

[01:56:28] to make one billion or it's a there we're going to disaster and then we're going to say it was

[01:56:32] whatever it's it's it's a crushing reality but not to be too dismissive and definitely not to

[01:56:40] dash too many dreams most people don't have to worry about that because no matter what level of

[01:56:47] artistic creation you're making whether it's just sculpting a thing in your back garden on a pottery

[01:56:53] where you'll know if you're writing some songs especially especially music my god that industry is just

[01:56:59] oh yeah is that even a thing anymore but it's such a narrow window of success and that is such a

[01:57:04] limited time for how long you can stay there yeah dude i'm interviewing a number of fans this week

[01:57:11] i know from speaking to being in the past like i had this week's episode that time of us recording

[01:57:16] the guy was on who's a sit by enlarge a successful artist like goes out on tools you know

[01:57:21] is release multiple albums a great reviews all the rest of it he has a day job you know and that's

[01:57:27] like that's vast vast majority of people in bands now if someone says to you i'm in a band and like

[01:57:32] oh but you were on tour in the american it's like yeah i took you know time off work or i pulled

[01:57:38] a shifts in that's it you know then they get back to their day job and yeah i think they're

[01:57:42] definitely you can see the same in filmmaking as well right it's like say same in podcasting dude

[01:57:47] like the question not to get more often than anything from people that don't have artistic

[01:57:52] pursuits is oh so you do you get paid for that i'm always bring my teeth when they give

[01:57:57] that they ask that question because i'm like I understand why i was saying it but no and it's like

[01:58:03] like you said i i think filmmaking definitely is one of those that because Hollywood and industry

[01:58:08] is like that exists right where you see of scene amounts of money yes and people just say oh

[01:58:14] that's must be what you're after it's like nah no that's that's rare that's like the two

[01:58:20] one percent even right of the industry the vast vast majority of people as you say as any artist

[01:58:26] it's just some of the just creative because of what you said earlier action you know and they

[01:58:31] they want to play with that and yes i agree with you like actually i don't think it's dashing dreams

[01:58:36] i think it's reassuring to say that you don't have to worry about the big stuff like if you're

[01:58:40] listening to this you go yeah i've got an idea for like a youtube series or like a short film or whatever

[01:58:47] great go go start go learn go pick up a camera go like you said use your phone hell whatever like

[01:58:53] just just start go and try and make the thing and don't worry about ob box office and things like

[01:58:59] that's like that's a million billion miles away again it's like making an album like

[01:59:03] or making a podcast or do i have to get signed no you can just the internet exists you can

[01:59:07] just put it out there just go and make the thing because you want to make it absolutely and i

[01:59:13] just to reiterate and to to reassure is it worth if i go over some my accolades

[01:59:19] sequelizers is in the top one percent of listen to podcasts in the world because of numbers

[01:59:26] um i have made films since 2009 professionally and have won an array of awards and been to festivals

[01:59:36] and been to like MCM big convention in London had had panels up done all kinds of things i've had

[01:59:43] production of everyone's just working for you know a bit of fun and people have actually

[01:59:47] been given a huge budget and belt actually do things with it i've done as a professional acting

[01:59:52] on multiple levels and different things and different sets and paid for it accordingly

[01:59:57] i've also been a film critic for 20 years god the i20 years and i've been featured in magazines

[02:00:05] and again gone to festivals and important stuff um uh done stuff with baff to blah blah blah all kinds

[02:00:11] of cool things and and and um and yet i have a date and it is nothing to do with film making

[02:00:22] arguably it is it is a bit more now but for the longest time i was working at a hospital doing

[02:00:27] finances because that paid or the opportunity to do the creative things and if you think of yourself

[02:00:35] oh i'll be able to make it bigger or i won't be able to get into this or whatever that's a relevant

[02:00:39] i think the way i think of it is food oddly enough um allow me to explain um what's

[02:00:47] what i mean by that is if he's not the first time you've made a food analogy on this ballroom

[02:00:52] just just before we go any further but yeah please carry on usually what happens is we'll have

[02:00:56] a good conversation and then i'll get hungry um so yeah basically the food analogy in this case is

[02:01:03] um if you want to be a chef and have a Michelin star and open multiple restaurants and

[02:01:12] have your name up there and be a Gordon Ramsay house hold name whatever that's absolutely a thing

[02:01:18] you can do but fundamentally you still have to learn how to cook, cook a variety of things

[02:01:25] and do it in a way that people actually want to go and you know pay you to cook food for them

[02:01:32] yeah but on a personal level, on a simple level, to get back to what i say about why people are

[02:01:40] doing these things, why you playing music, why writing stories, why you filming things.

[02:01:45] It most people in terms of just to cooking and being a chef professionally is I want people to eat

[02:01:52] good food that i have made for them which is the most life sustaining thing you can do for someone

[02:02:00] it is giving them some else you being paid for the thing blah blah blah but that is whether you're

[02:02:05] a line cook on a you know in a restaurant or if you're working on a McDonald's or whatever happens

[02:02:10] to be all of those have a element of validity to the person who's eating the food as

[02:02:15] long as you're doing good job when you're doing it and they go thanks for that i appreciate it home

[02:02:19] eat. It doesn't matter if you're like you know serving food for an emperor or weapons to be

[02:02:25] you're still injecting that same level of passion and love and earnestness and craft

[02:02:31] and then you take that mindset to something like filmmaking and you see what's the difference what's

[02:02:36] the same thing you know if i'm cooking for you personally if i'm down in the kitchen and i make

[02:02:42] you something and say there you go that's what you eat it you know that was really nice thank you

[02:02:45] or if i'm someone who is running a you know as say a three-missile and star restaurant in

[02:02:50] middle of London and you come in and say i've heard Matt's already good at this and you come in

[02:02:54] and i make you some food specifically yes you pay me for it but still it's that same transactional

[02:03:00] contract of i'm going to feed you now same thing with filmmaking i'm going to give you a story i'm

[02:03:07] going to tell you a story now it'll be funny it'll be sad whatever it is we're going on that

[02:03:11] journey together and we'll get to the other side of it and you'll be hopefully have a great time

[02:03:16] with it maybe you'll tell someone else about it it'll always be for here for you if you want to

[02:03:19] more out try something else next week that's the menu changes it work but it comes at

[02:03:25] that fundamental simplicity and once you have that in your head you go oh yeah and stand it's now

[02:03:31] I know why i'm doing this is to feed people it's talked to people it's tell stories that kind of thing

[02:03:37] exactly well said and i feel like a really nice place to wrap up as well so thank you so much

[02:03:41] Matt for coming back onto the podcast and thank you for having me share your pleasure well yeah i mean

[02:03:47] again i'll take that compliment and it's just it's nice to get your insights sense or talk about

[02:03:52] things on a more creative personal level as well which is i love talking about culture with you

[02:03:57] and you know that's that's a big thing about what i do here i'm really enjoying doing these

[02:04:02] seasons of like looking a little bit deeper you know into creative stuff and the people that make

[02:04:06] things so yeah thank you for sharing i really appreciate it and on that note yeah where can the

[02:04:11] people find you and all the things you've made okay so you can go to all the social media channels

[02:04:16] and look the stocks STOg each z you can go to cheesemint.com and see the things that i'm making

[02:04:22] the film specifically at the minute as i said before to clarify super happy kill time is the big thing

[02:04:28] those don't know series one two and three a current airline series four five six and two spin

[02:04:34] obstacle super happy kill time off life and super happy kill time bobbogam brainwave are also now

[02:04:39] shot and most are edited hoping hoping to get them out starting october this year so they'll be

[02:04:47] more of that coming soon and of course sequelisers um just in case needs spawning because of

[02:04:53] people as and said some things s e q u e l i s e r s if you're such a nice thing we do a podcast weekly

[02:05:01] talk about films so if you've had close off oh it's kind of film chat's interesting i want to

[02:05:05] map with dude fix psycho too that's right there's a sequel to psycho and we decide to make a better

[02:05:11] version of it in theory um so yeah we do that podcast weekly and it's a lot of fun um and yes oh

[02:05:18] and one more thing um the red right hand dot code at UK is my film review site so again if you

[02:05:24] want to see my opinions on the latest releases like kingdom of the planet the apes or you're quite

[02:05:29] placed a one or I give a very conversational breakdown of the movie feel free to go there really

[02:05:36] i'll make sure i put links in the show notes for all of that as usual so thanks for coming on

[02:05:41] thanks man appreciate it a massive thank you there to map for coming back onto the podcast

[02:05:46] and kicking off this season with style absolutely love having you back on the podcast and i think

[02:05:52] you'll agree with me when i say that there was so much insight there in that episode just truly

[02:05:59] incredible matt is very generous with his time and very generous with his knowledge i greatly

[02:06:03] appreciate it you should of course go and check out is award winning films they're available

[02:06:08] on the youtube channel website i've linked to that in the show notes i've also linked to the podcast

[02:06:13] because you should be listening to sequelizers already if you're not then that is on you my

[02:06:18] friend but yes links are in the show notes check it out also check out matt's film reviews

[02:06:23] it's all linked below go give them a follow it is well worth your time thanks again matt

[02:06:28] becoming onto the podcast and thank you very much for listening to this episode if this is your

[02:06:33] first episode of fundamentals welcome aboard love to have you please check out the rest of the episodes

[02:06:39] there are over 100 or so now few to listen to i've recently finished my first ever series of

[02:06:45] in-person interviews which was very exciting at the 2000 trees festival so you can check those out

[02:06:51] there's a lot more on film as well if you're interested in film have a scroll through

[02:06:54] i've done a bunch of topics including a few directors a few different movie franchises and so

[02:07:00] much more there's loads for you to check out you can also check out episodes that feature the

[02:07:04] other members of the esteemed sequelizers jack and tim have been good enough to come on the podcast

[02:07:10] and talk about a variety of topics as you'll see by scrolling through the feed to make sure

[02:07:14] you check it out also make sure that you subscribe and follow or whatever it is you need to do

[02:07:19] so that you don't miss out on other episodes including the next couple of episodes that have

[02:07:24] come up about independent filmmaking they are absolutely wonderful and I promise you

[02:07:29] you do not want to miss out on those episodes so again make sure that you are following the podcast

[02:07:33] or subscribed so that you don't miss out on it if you would like to help the podcast to grow

[02:07:38] and please consider doing a few simple things to help me along the way i am an independent

[02:07:43] podcaster anything that you can do to help the podcast grow be greatly appreciated first and foremost

[02:07:51] all i ask is that you tell somebody it's that simple you like the podcast you like the

[02:07:55] episode you like what I'm doing here please tell somebody you can tell them however you like

[02:08:00] word of my social media all that good stuff it really does help if you go on to social media

[02:08:05] then that's obviously an antiponus because then i can be involved with that you can tag me

[02:08:10] at fundamentals pod on instagram twitter i'm also on threads as well as blue sky so feel free

[02:08:15] to share the episodes on any of those platforms and yeah you can tag me i can get involved all

[02:08:20] of that good stuff it really helps also you can leave me a lovely five star review on your favorite

[02:08:26] podcast if you have done so and i've missed it and please let me know because i want to give you

[02:08:31] a big thank you on an episode of the podcast because it really is the least that i can do and finally

[02:08:38] if you want to help out with the costs of running the podcast then check out the donation pages

[02:08:42] or the wonderful merchandise page featuring the fantastic artwork designed by one Alex Jenkins

[02:08:49] thanks for in the show notes for that as well right i'm back next week with another episode

[02:08:54] in this series featuring another returning guest so make sure that you are here from that it will

[02:08:59] be out on Monday this fall for August right nearly in your podcast feeds ready for your morning

[02:09:04] commute your morning routine or if you just want to dry it out the kids because they're off

[02:09:08] hey i'm not going to judge how you use the podcast thanks again for listening and i'll see you

[02:09:12] right back here on Monday the 12th for another episode of the podcast

Independent Film Making with Matthew Stogdon (Cheesemint &amp; Sequelisers Podcast)

Independent Film Making with Matthew Stogdon (Cheesemint & Sequelisers Podcast)