Random Fandom: Dungeons & Dragons with Matt & Josh from Overpower

[00:00:14] Hello and welcome to Fandomentals, the podcast that explores pop culture one conversation at a time. I am your host, Harley. Every episode I interview different people from around the world to discuss a variety of topics within the world of pop culture. Thanks for joining me on this journey and I hope you enjoy the episode.

[00:00:32] Welcome to the seventh episode of Random Fandom 2024 and for this episode I'm joined by returning guests of the podcast Matt and Josh from the brilliant band Overpower.

[00:00:53] These guys have brought with them an amazing topic to discuss for the podcast, one that I've wanted to cover for quite some time and that is of course Dungeons and Dragons.

[00:01:04] First invented in 1974 by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, this has become a worldwide phenomenon. There are multiple books, there are TV shows, video games, movies and many, many podcasts based around this game.

[00:01:21] I wanted to tap into the world a bit more and understand what it is that appeals to people about this and why it's still going so strong after several decades.

[00:01:30] Matt and Josh helped me get some insight into this as well as explaining their relationship with the game, what it's like to create your own characters, to run your own dungeons and so much more.

[00:01:41] It's really a ton of fun and we even get into creating my very own character for the podcast, which is something I didn't see coming for this episode, but here we are.

[00:01:50] So there's that and so much more to look forward to in this episode.

[00:01:55] So let's just get to it.

[00:01:57] This is Dungeons and Dragons with Matt and Josh from Overpower.

[00:02:11] Hello Matt and Josh and welcome back to the Fundamentals podcast.

[00:02:15] Hi.

[00:02:15] Hello mate, thank you for having us. How are you doing?

[00:02:18] I'm doing very well. I really, I should say a welcome too to you Matt because we didn't have the privilege of meeting last time.

[00:02:24] Well, I've got a confession to make and that is that rather than attending your podcast recording, I went to watch Spanish love songs in the forest.

[00:02:33] I mean, to be fair, a choice with a conversation with me versus going to watch Spanish love songs.

[00:02:39] Yeah, even I choose that. So yeah, that's reasonable.

[00:02:42] I couldn't get in to see them in the stage either.

[00:02:44] So that was a chance.

[00:02:46] Yeah, it was packed. It was like packed outside of the tent.

[00:02:48] So it was the acoustic stage or nothing in the end.

[00:02:51] To be fair, they were one of those bands that the whole weekend everyone was buzzing about them.

[00:02:55] So I kind of understand that.

[00:02:57] Yeah.

[00:02:57] Yeah.

[00:02:58] No worries. Was it a good set?

[00:02:59] It was wonderful.

[00:03:00] Yeah, it was really great.

[00:03:01] Great. I've never been to trees before, embarrassingly, even though it's only up the road.

[00:03:06] But yeah, it was magical. It was great.

[00:03:08] I got in the tent to see Hot Mulligan, who are my other band to see.

[00:03:11] So I was happy with that.

[00:03:13] Yeah, yeah.

[00:03:14] Are you guys around for the whole weekend?

[00:03:15] Because I caught you quite early in the festivals.

[00:03:17] Did you guys hang around for a day or two or what did you do?

[00:03:20] I think most of us left on, I know I left on Saturday afternoon.

[00:03:26] Okay.

[00:03:28] You'd like to drink your entire body weight in booze by that time, wouldn't you?

[00:03:32] Yeah.

[00:03:32] And I know we lost Lou for the entire weekend.

[00:03:35] Lou just sort of disappeared on Saturday afternoon and then just no one saw him again for like a week.

[00:03:41] I think he stays to the end, but we're still not really sure what happened to him.

[00:03:45] I don't know if you're sure.

[00:03:47] I'll have to get him on to find out.

[00:03:49] He's like a chameleon though.

[00:03:51] Like he's just in another group without them really realizing it, but they think they know him.

[00:03:57] Like it doesn't matter who it is.

[00:03:58] It's never met him before.

[00:04:01] It's so perfect.

[00:04:03] He's got like a talented Mr. Ripley thing going on.

[00:04:06] Yeah.

[00:04:06] Yeah, yeah.

[00:04:07] I like it.

[00:04:08] I like it.

[00:04:09] He's a busy man.

[00:04:10] It's a busy man.

[00:04:12] Yeah.

[00:04:12] Well, I appreciate you guys taking out the time because yeah, it does seem like since

[00:04:17] I last spoke to you guys, you've been nonstop.

[00:04:19] Like every time I look at your Instagram, you're playing another show and I just think

[00:04:21] good grief.

[00:04:22] Like how much can these guys fit in in six months?

[00:04:25] But yeah, you guys have really packed it in.

[00:04:27] So I appreciate you carving out the time just to come and chat and nerd out with me.

[00:04:32] It's very much appreciated.

[00:04:33] It's always great.

[00:04:34] Thank you.

[00:04:34] We ask ourselves the same question as well.

[00:04:37] Like is this too many gigs?

[00:04:40] I've got to go back to work.

[00:04:42] I've got to go to work.

[00:04:43] It's like Wednesday night in Middlesbrough and I haven't got the day off the next day.

[00:04:47] I can't do this anymore.

[00:04:49] I'll get out of it.

[00:04:51] Yeah.

[00:04:51] And then we do it and we're like, that was fun.

[00:04:53] Yeah.

[00:04:53] Yeah.

[00:04:54] We should do another one.

[00:04:56] I feel the same way about doing this.

[00:04:58] Every time it's like, oh, that was a lot of work.

[00:04:59] Do I do another?

[00:05:00] Oh yeah.

[00:05:00] Another chance.

[00:05:01] Let's go.

[00:05:01] Let's do it.

[00:05:03] So on that note.

[00:05:04] Yeah.

[00:05:04] It's really good to have you guys on to talk about a subject that has, as I said before

[00:05:08] we started recording, I've been circling this for a while.

[00:05:10] It's been on my notes of like, I'd love to talk to somebody about this because I find

[00:05:14] this fascinating.

[00:05:15] And that is of course, Dungeons and Dragons.

[00:05:17] And I appreciate this is one of those topics where it's so broad.

[00:05:21] I could probably do a series on it.

[00:05:24] But I guess for our purposes, I'd love to know, where did this start for you guys?

[00:05:29] What was your introduction to the world of Dungeons and Dragons?

[00:05:32] I think I'll let you go first on this one, Matthew, because I feel like you've probably

[00:05:35] got more excited.

[00:05:37] No, mine's actually a little bit sad and depressing, actually.

[00:05:41] Oh no.

[00:05:42] Basically, I don't know how, but I came into my possession a third edition D&D player's

[00:05:51] guide.

[00:05:53] But one day I didn't have it.

[00:05:55] And then another day I did have it.

[00:05:56] And I don't know how old I was, maybe like 12 or 13 or something.

[00:05:59] And because I'm like a bit of a introvert, I basically just used to make characters.

[00:06:07] I didn't know this.

[00:06:08] I didn't have a play group for anything.

[00:06:10] I was just like, oh, this is kind of cool.

[00:06:11] Let me like just make a character and then write it in a bin and then make another one.

[00:06:17] Oh no, this is really sad.

[00:06:18] I never actually, thanks, Josh.

[00:06:20] That's all right.

[00:06:21] I actually played third edition, but then I got into fifth edition.

[00:06:25] There's a gaming shop in Stroud and we got a fifth edition group together and we played

[00:06:32] there.

[00:06:33] I've done a bit of DMing as well.

[00:06:35] Mostly just like running through people through like the starter set, the Lost Minds of Phandelver

[00:06:38] starter set, which is good fun.

[00:06:41] So yeah, I played a bit, DM'd a bit and just was a shut in and made characters as well.

[00:06:49] That's why our lyrics are all about Dungeons and Dragons and zombies and stuff like that,

[00:06:52] because it's cool.

[00:06:56] I will say as a fellow Metalhead, it is a bit of a weird trifecta thing, right?

[00:07:01] If you do like a Venn diagram of like sort of Metalhead's interest, like generally fantasy

[00:07:07] and sci-fi is going to be in the other circles.

[00:07:09] Yeah, 100%.

[00:07:10] It's something about it.

[00:07:12] I find that every single time I get talking to somebody who's into the same kind of music,

[00:07:16] it's like, you also love Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Dungeons and Dragons and everything

[00:07:20] else in between.

[00:07:21] And I'm like, I don't know what that says about all of us.

[00:07:24] I don't know why.

[00:07:25] I think it's the outcast thing, right?

[00:07:28] I think like Metal Music tends to fall on the ears of people who feel like they're a

[00:07:34] bit different or a bit, you know, a bit outcast from the norms of society.

[00:07:38] And I think things like Dungeons and Dragons and certainly like your high fantasy and your

[00:07:43] sci-fi and stuff like that.

[00:07:46] Yeah, I think it appeals to people who feel like they're a little bit different and

[00:07:50] feel like they, you know.

[00:07:52] Yeah, I don't know.

[00:07:52] It's weird.

[00:07:53] So ever since I was younger, ever since I was a year seven at school and had System of

[00:07:59] Down for the first time.

[00:08:00] Yeah.

[00:08:01] It's all sort of come part and parcel together, especially the gaming side of me.

[00:08:07] Right.

[00:08:08] So was it similar to Matt then?

[00:08:10] Like you sort of stumbled across?

[00:08:11] I played it.

[00:08:11] No, I didn't play it for the first time until I was about 17 years old.

[00:08:15] And one of my friends in one of my groups down at home was absolutely begging us all to play

[00:08:22] with him.

[00:08:22] And all of us were like, I don't know, man.

[00:08:23] I don't know.

[00:08:24] I don't know if we're going to enjoy it.

[00:08:25] And we did like a party night.

[00:08:27] So there was a lot of booze and stuff like that.

[00:08:31] And I just absolutely fell in love with it, but never had an opportunity to play it again

[00:08:35] up until about a year and a half ago where the local in my village where me and my fiancee

[00:08:41] drink, I suggested to them we do like a games night on a Wednesday night down there and maybe

[00:08:47] run Dungeons and Dragons once a month.

[00:08:49] Having never run it in my life, having not played it in over 10 years.

[00:08:53] Yeah.

[00:08:54] That was just over a year ago and we still do it every Wednesday now.

[00:08:57] I'm now DMing a game down there.

[00:08:59] And yeah, so I've gone from like playing into DMing now as well.

[00:09:04] So I'm running a campaign at the minute, which is awesome.

[00:09:07] It's really good fun.

[00:09:07] We had a session last night actually, which is about four hours down there.

[00:09:11] Wow.

[00:09:11] Yeah.

[00:09:12] It's my favorite outlet at the minute.

[00:09:15] I just, I adore it.

[00:09:16] It's so much fun.

[00:09:17] Escapism at its finest.

[00:09:19] Yeah.

[00:09:20] Have you found that to be the same, Matt, in Australia?

[00:09:22] Have you found a little group then to kind of go with?

[00:09:24] Yeah.

[00:09:25] We had a good group down at our local game shop for a while and we probably played maybe

[00:09:30] two or three years and then it kind of fell apart over COVID, but I might pick it back

[00:09:35] up.

[00:09:35] But I'm always like on Wizards website, on the DMs Guild, looking at stuff, even just

[00:09:40] for like song inspo as well.

[00:09:42] As well as like just indie stuff.

[00:09:45] Yeah.

[00:09:46] So yeah, there's a lot to it.

[00:09:47] The lore is super deep and you've got like, you've got the novels as well.

[00:09:50] Well, obviously you've got Baldur's Gate 3, which came out within the last, just over

[00:09:55] a year ago, I guess.

[00:09:56] Yeah.

[00:09:56] Yeah.

[00:09:57] And it comes up so much in media as well.

[00:09:59] I think it's like had a massive spike in popularity from like Stranger Things as well.

[00:10:02] Stranger Things was the one more massively.

[00:10:04] Yeah.

[00:10:05] Yeah.

[00:10:05] So I think it's very much in like the cultural zeitgeist again.

[00:10:08] I think it's kind of like, well, it's like a, I guess like a nerdy pursuit.

[00:10:12] I think it's one of those things that's like almost like transcended that a little

[00:10:15] bit to kind of be like niche cool again.

[00:10:19] Maybe I'm completely wrong.

[00:10:21] Maybe it's just something I like.

[00:10:23] No, I think you're onto something there.

[00:10:25] Yeah.

[00:10:25] I think all things kind of, I don't know if it's maybe just the internet sort of era,

[00:10:31] if you don't make sense.

[00:10:32] It kind of feels, I feel the same about music these days.

[00:10:34] And you're like, what you were saying a minute ago about heavy metal.

[00:10:37] Cause I was the same, like growing up at school.

[00:10:38] Yeah, definitely.

[00:10:39] It felt like you were in a certain camp depending on what kind of music you listened to,

[00:10:44] what kind of films you like, what sports you play, so on.

[00:10:48] Or as it feels like now, I don't know if just because the world's so much more connected

[00:10:51] and things are so much quicker that it's like, like, for example, Dungeons and Dragons

[00:10:54] might've been a previous only like 10 people in the whole school knew what it was and played

[00:10:59] it.

[00:10:59] Now it's like, oh, it's on a TV show.

[00:11:00] Suddenly everybody wants to have a go at it.

[00:11:03] Yeah.

[00:11:03] It does feel like those barriers kind of come down a bit more and it's, I don't know.

[00:11:07] I like to think that's for the better, right?

[00:11:09] Cause it makes people a bit more open-minded to kind of go, oh, I've never heard of this

[00:11:13] like obscure game from like, what was it?

[00:11:15] The seventies.

[00:11:16] Yeah.

[00:11:18] You know, it's like, now it's just like, yeah, I'll give that a go.

[00:11:20] Why not?

[00:11:21] You know?

[00:11:21] So I think it's good.

[00:11:22] It's sort of, it's kind of the way that I hope most things go, that things just kind

[00:11:27] of become a bit more broad, you know?

[00:11:29] And it's like, why not give this a try?

[00:11:31] You might like it.

[00:11:32] Yeah, exactly.

[00:11:32] Right.

[00:11:32] I think there's so much gatekeeping that goes on as well in certain communities.

[00:11:36] And that comes with the, with the territory of, you know, this is our music.

[00:11:41] You know, you don't understand it, you know, we're different.

[00:11:43] I think like there are positive and negatives to those things.

[00:11:47] And the fact that D&D's become so like un-gate-kept, it's like, and I found as well, like it's

[00:11:54] one of the most like welcoming communities of like games I've ever been a part of.

[00:12:00] There's like constantly, it's almost more fun having like new players with you and trying

[00:12:05] to get new people into it.

[00:12:06] Because I think you can find sometimes, especially DMing, like people that know the rules inside

[00:12:12] and out can sometimes be a real pain.

[00:12:14] Yeah.

[00:12:15] Especially if you're trying to run a game.

[00:12:16] Whereas when you get new players in whose imaginations are a bit more lucid, I suppose,

[00:12:21] and they'll come up with these crazy things and they'll be like, can I do that?

[00:12:24] And you're like, yeah, sure.

[00:12:26] Roll some dice.

[00:12:27] You know?

[00:12:28] Whereas some people become so hard-lined by the rule book that's in front of them.

[00:12:32] And ultimately that's not the point of the game.

[00:12:34] It's all supposed to be imaginary.

[00:12:35] So you can have a lot of fun with new players.

[00:12:38] They tend to have a bit of a broader horizon at all.

[00:12:41] So yeah, it's good fun.

[00:12:44] Yeah.

[00:12:45] Do you find that to be the case as well, Matt?

[00:12:47] I think added to what Josh is saying, I think a lot of people who have played for a long time

[00:12:51] are guilty of gamifying it.

[00:12:54] Like they'll try and make their character, you know, like Superman.

[00:12:58] And that to me isn't really fun.

[00:13:00] Like a lot of the fun is in the failures of the game.

[00:13:02] Like when you roll a one rather than a 20 to do whatever the cool thing is that you're trying to do.

[00:13:09] And a lot of the players will sort of min-max their characters to the point where it's almost impossible to fail.

[00:13:16] And that isn't really very fun to me.

[00:13:19] And like rules lawyering as well, because like the good thing about 5e, I think it's so open to interpretation.

[00:13:25] There isn't, you know, you can kind of fit the rules to do everything, even though perhaps it's not quite what that particular stat or role or something was intended to.

[00:13:35] And, you know, if you're interpreting it, Josh is running this game and he's interpreting it one way.

[00:13:39] And the worst thing that could happen is someone's like, well, actually on page 57, it says this.

[00:13:44] Give it a rest.

[00:13:46] Yeah.

[00:13:47] Yeah.

[00:13:47] Well, of course.

[00:13:48] I mean, it's, you know, it's a game.

[00:13:50] That's the whole point, isn't it?

[00:13:51] You're meant to be having fun.

[00:13:53] And yeah, I know.

[00:13:54] And also from my very loose understanding is there are multiple versions, right?

[00:14:00] I mean, you mentioned a minute ago, there's like, you know, book three, book five.

[00:14:03] I imagine there's so many different styles of game that you can play.

[00:14:07] Yeah.

[00:14:08] So it almost seems arbitrary to get really caught up in the rules of something.

[00:14:11] It's like, we're just playing this style.

[00:14:12] Let's just have fun with it.

[00:14:14] Yeah.

[00:14:14] So there's, um, there was the first edition.

[00:14:17] So it was, it was AD&D was the first like commonly known one.

[00:14:21] Um, and that was late seventies.

[00:14:23] There was an edition before that, that was like the original Dungeons and Dragons, but,

[00:14:26] um, not a lot of people knew about that.

[00:14:28] Um, AD&D was the first one since then.

[00:14:31] There's been five editions of the rule book in the last 40, 50 years.

[00:14:36] It was 50 years this year, actually.

[00:14:37] So, um, we're currently on fifth edition.

[00:14:40] Now the fifth edition rule book came out in 2014.

[00:14:45] Um, but they've just released like an updated 2024 version of the five B rule book.

[00:14:51] Now I actually had this last night.

[00:14:53] Um, it's not a new edition.

[00:14:55] It's just an updated version of the fifth edition.

[00:14:58] Okay.

[00:14:59] The problem is they have changed things so slightly so that they cannot call it for a full overhaul.

[00:15:05] Um, yeah, but we had a player last night, try and do something.

[00:15:07] And I was reading out of my 2014 book and I read that in the new one and they changed something

[00:15:12] so subtly.

[00:15:13] Yeah.

[00:15:14] It literally broke the flow of like the combat that we were in and stuff like that, because

[00:15:18] I was like, no, hang on.

[00:15:19] Oh, by my book, it does this.

[00:15:21] And I think it was like a, it should have been a touch spell, but in the new edition,

[00:15:24] it's, um, you can like cast it as a range spell.

[00:15:27] I know that probably doesn't sound like a lot.

[00:15:30] So I'm saying you're not within touching distance for this spell.

[00:15:32] And they're going on there in my book.

[00:15:34] It says that I can, I can cast it from a, from a distance.

[00:15:37] Right.

[00:15:38] Okay.

[00:15:38] And I had to basically, you as a DM, you have to sort of think on the spot and say,

[00:15:42] right, okay, what am I going to do?

[00:15:42] If I, if I allow it now, I'm going to have to allow it going forward.

[00:15:45] But, um, yeah, it's weird.

[00:15:48] It's not a new edition that's just come out, but there are like changes that are enough

[00:15:52] to cause a bit of conflict in the game, which is cool.

[00:15:54] So I don't know when we'll get a sixth edition of, of dungeon dragons.

[00:15:58] I don't know whether they'll just keep making new updates now, or I don't know.

[00:16:03] Right.

[00:16:04] Okay.

[00:16:05] Yeah.

[00:16:05] So then you, so basically you, you've got this sort of, I guess the, uh, the official guidebook

[00:16:11] then.

[00:16:11] Yes.

[00:16:12] And yeah, the idea is, especially the dungeon mass, my understanding is, yeah, you, you

[00:16:15] are just basically like almost like a referee, right?

[00:16:18] That's exactly what they used to be called.

[00:16:20] Would you believe it?

[00:16:21] That was in the original.

[00:16:22] Right.

[00:16:22] Okay.

[00:16:22] That was what they were called was referees.

[00:16:25] Um, and then it changed over to dungeon master.

[00:16:27] It's dungeon master for D and D.

[00:16:29] And then for most other, like there's pathfinders, like there's tons of tabletop RPGs.

[00:16:34] Um, and they call them game masters for that, but it was originally, they were called referees.

[00:16:38] Yeah.

[00:16:38] So you're not there to, um, they, I think the characters make the story in dungeon dragons.

[00:16:45] It's not, it's not the dungeon master.

[00:16:46] It's up to everyone at the table to, to make that story.

[00:16:49] Um, you're just there to sort of guide them on their merry way and sort of tell them what

[00:16:55] they can and can't do within the confines of the rule books, I guess.

[00:17:00] Hmm.

[00:17:00] Hmm.

[00:17:02] Interesting.

[00:17:03] Interesting.

[00:17:03] Games Workshop originally purchased, um, published Dungeons and Dragons.

[00:17:07] Um, a little crossover there for you.

[00:17:10] It might've been because it certainly wizards of the coast came about around third edition,

[00:17:14] I think so.

[00:17:14] Yeah.

[00:17:15] I think they were the first publishers and they used to sell D and D models.

[00:17:18] Hmm.

[00:17:19] I'll tell you what, Harley, I must say, I've said this to Josh all the time, but there is

[00:17:23] nothing less interesting than someone telling you what happened in their Dungeons and Dragons

[00:17:27] game last night.

[00:17:28] It is like someone telling you about a dream.

[00:17:31] It's like, I don't care.

[00:17:32] It's not even real.

[00:17:34] No, it's not real.

[00:17:35] It's why me and you just don't talk about our campaigns anymore.

[00:17:37] We just don't talk to each other about it.

[00:17:39] I mean, in fairness, I think, yeah, it's, that would be like someone sitting down and

[00:17:46] go, I watched a movie last night and then trying to describe it scene by scene.

[00:17:49] Yeah.

[00:17:50] I could just, I'd rather go watch it if that's okay with you.

[00:17:53] So I get it.

[00:17:54] Yeah.

[00:17:54] You're playing a game.

[00:17:55] You like, yeah, of course it's more interesting to actually be in the game and actually play

[00:18:01] it.

[00:18:01] So yeah, that that's fair enough.

[00:18:03] But I also imagine there's going to be a little bit of that cropping up in this conversation

[00:18:07] and that's fine.

[00:18:08] I'll allow it.

[00:18:09] It's like, well, last night I did this and I attacked this guy and then this happens.

[00:18:13] Well, you didn't, did you?

[00:18:15] You just sat there and you charactered it in.

[00:18:16] Stop bragging.

[00:18:18] Matt just absolutely tanking one of our favorite games.

[00:18:22] Can I give you that?

[00:18:25] It's fine.

[00:18:26] We've had this discussion so many times.

[00:18:27] We just don't, me and Matt just don't talk to each other about what's going on in our

[00:18:31] like D&D worlds at all anymore.

[00:18:33] And that's completely fine.

[00:18:34] But I'm curious within how this game works.

[00:18:38] So yeah, you've got the official rule, but that's fair enough.

[00:18:42] Is it always the kind of, this might sound like a very simple question, but again, my

[00:18:45] knowledge of this is very limited.

[00:18:47] Is it always the same kind of story or is it like you, the whole point is you've given

[00:18:52] a bunch of characters, a bunch of scenarios and you, the idea is, is that you craft your

[00:18:57] character.

[00:18:57] So you build whoever you want, whatever stats you allow them to have.

[00:19:01] And then you say, right, we're going to go this story, this story, or this story.

[00:19:05] Which one do you want?

[00:19:07] Is that, is that kind of how it works?

[00:19:08] It kind of works like that, but then at the same time, it doesn't work like that at all.

[00:19:14] So I guess it depends how you want to run the game.

[00:19:17] Like some DMS will be like, okay, we're going to play this theme of story.

[00:19:20] And then they might like, for example, curse of Strahd is one of the most well-received

[00:19:24] adventures that wizards have released in this edition.

[00:19:26] It's like a high, it's like a Gothic vampire, scary castles, lightning coming down.

[00:19:34] And the world's kind of already that they've kind of already lost to the bad guy.

[00:19:39] And then, you know, you might come into the knowledge plane, you know, that, you know,

[00:19:42] you're playing that game and maybe you build a character within that theme, or you might,

[00:19:46] it might be like a high fantasy where like, you know, with dragons and, um, liches and

[00:19:52] whatever else.

[00:19:53] And you might make a slightly kind of more generic character to fit into that kind of setting.

[00:19:58] But then equally there's, you know, there's DMs who make their own game up and it might

[00:20:02] not even be in, might not even be set on the sword coast or within sort of the official

[00:20:07] world at all.

[00:20:08] I mean, you could just play, you could, you could change the rules and, you know, walk

[00:20:13] down Gloucester High Street in the game and apply the stats to that if you really wanted

[00:20:17] to.

[00:20:18] I don't know how great it would be.

[00:20:19] I was going to say, I mean, I can tell you, you bump into some colourful characters, but

[00:20:26] the setting.

[00:20:28] I'd play that.

[00:20:29] I wouldn't 100% play that.

[00:20:33] There's a drunk at the docks.

[00:20:34] He takes a swing for you.

[00:20:35] What do you do?

[00:20:36] Exactly right.

[00:20:37] There we go.

[00:20:37] That's it.

[00:20:40] Walk the other way.

[00:20:42] No, that's, that's genuinely quite fascinating because this, yeah, it's just something I've

[00:20:46] always wondered with being a dungeon master.

[00:20:48] And I'm guessing a lot of the sort of weight of responsibility falls on your shoulders.

[00:20:54] I'm guessing in terms of like crafting the narrative, perhaps learning to listen to what

[00:21:00] people do.

[00:21:01] And then I've always wondered like how much of it can you plan in advance?

[00:21:05] I've listened to a couple of different podcasts or based around this now and the different

[00:21:08] barriers, which we'll get into later.

[00:21:10] But that's something I'm always fascinated by when listening to it.

[00:21:13] It's like, I'm always thinking, yeah, how far ahead can they plan?

[00:21:15] Because it always feels like you have an idea of where you want the story to go.

[00:21:19] But obviously the nature of the game is you don't know what's going to happen until you're there

[00:21:23] on the night and what, how the dice fall quite literally, right?

[00:21:27] Yeah.

[00:21:27] There's quite literally the nail on the head there.

[00:21:30] Um, so I ran the first campaign of my one three weeks ago and I spent a good two weeks

[00:21:39] every night, like writing bits down about where I wanted to go and what I wanted to do and

[00:21:42] blah, blah, blah.

[00:21:43] And within the first 20 minutes, it was shot.

[00:21:45] It was gone.

[00:21:47] It was just, yeah.

[00:21:48] And then, and then you're, so, oh no, for a lot of them, like Matt mentioned, the curse

[00:21:53] of Strahd, I'm running candle keep mysteries at the minute.

[00:21:55] So you have a reference book, um, and on each room they go into, you'll have maybe

[00:22:00] a paragraph of descriptive text to give the table from the book.

[00:22:06] And that's it.

[00:22:07] That's all you get.

[00:22:08] The rest of it has to come from you and blah, blah, blah.

[00:22:10] You have to sort of work with whatever happens and go like that.

[00:22:13] Um, and then last night's session, I spent probably 10 minutes before we went down last night to

[00:22:17] play it, just refreshing things in my head.

[00:22:20] I didn't really, I didn't write any notes into any of that.

[00:22:22] And I enjoyed last night infinitely more than I did with all the planning.

[00:22:27] So just going in it with a, you've just got to have a good imagination.

[00:22:31] I think that's the only thing.

[00:22:32] Yes.

[00:22:33] Um, yeah, yeah.

[00:22:35] And ultimately if you, if your table's talking to each other, you're just there to answer

[00:22:39] any questions they've got or to make sure that the roles are all going okay and things like

[00:22:43] that.

[00:22:44] You, you want to spin it so that they're running themselves.

[00:22:46] You're just giving them a, um, I'm trying to think of the right word for it.

[00:22:51] Um, you kind of like, it's kind of like an unwritten social contract that you're making with the

[00:22:58] players.

[00:22:58] Like you're like, we're all in this to like, you're almost like creating the story live

[00:23:04] as you go and you're kind of giving them sort of the world and they're almost populating

[00:23:08] it with their decisions.

[00:23:09] So like, you know, you rock up to a town and they'll be like, is there a store there?

[00:23:14] And you're like, kind of like, is there a store there?

[00:23:16] Uh, yes, there is.

[00:23:18] So you can't plan, you can't plan for everything.

[00:23:20] Like what's the barkeep called?

[00:23:22] Uh, John, I don't know.

[00:23:24] You kind of just making it up as you go.

[00:23:25] Um, yeah.

[00:23:26] And the social contract is, is such that you kind of have to have players that are in on

[00:23:31] it.

[00:23:31] You can't like the worst type of game is when there's someone that who's just there to

[00:23:34] derail things.

[00:23:35] You're like, you know, you, you go to like a quest giver, for example, you don't want

[00:23:40] that player at your table.

[00:23:41] It's like, Oh, I attack him.

[00:23:42] It's like the players have to be in on it to make it fun.

[00:23:45] So there's like an element of like freedom with the world building, but then there's, they

[00:23:50] have to like want to proceed the stories forwards.

[00:23:52] Otherwise, you know, they'll just be sat at the tavern for the next 10 sessions, drinking

[00:23:56] themselves to an early grade.

[00:24:00] Yeah.

[00:24:01] Yeah.

[00:24:02] Yeah.

[00:24:03] Yeah.

[00:24:03] Yeah.

[00:24:03] What does your character do or does another pint?

[00:24:05] Yeah.

[00:24:06] Brilliant.

[00:24:06] Brilliant.

[00:24:07] I had one weird.

[00:24:08] We got 10 people playing my campaign at the minute and he literally everyone was like

[00:24:11] off to go and start the adventure.

[00:24:13] And he was like, I'm staying here.

[00:24:14] And I was like, fine, stay there.

[00:24:16] Um, and then punched him, punished him with a hangover.

[00:24:19] So it gave him a load of, when he finally caught up with everyone 24 hours later, he managed

[00:24:23] to catch up, um, punished him with like, yeah, literally a hangover.

[00:24:29] So I like reduced all his stats, gave him disadvantage and everything for another 24 hours.

[00:24:33] Cause he was hungover.

[00:24:34] So it then made the game harder for him and sort of punished him for it.

[00:24:37] So it's fun.

[00:24:39] It's fun.

[00:24:39] It's fun dealing with problem players.

[00:24:40] I enjoy it.

[00:24:41] I enjoyed.

[00:24:42] Yeah.

[00:24:43] Yeah.

[00:24:43] Yeah.

[00:24:44] Shutting him up.

[00:24:46] Yeah.

[00:24:48] Fair enough.

[00:24:49] Yeah.

[00:24:50] Yeah.

[00:24:50] I just, I love the carnage of it.

[00:24:52] I just love the absolute carnage that happens in it.

[00:24:55] You cannot prepare for anything.

[00:24:56] It's absolutely brilliant.

[00:24:58] Yes.

[00:24:59] Yeah.

[00:24:59] Yeah.

[00:25:00] I love that as well.

[00:25:00] That sounds like a lot of fun.

[00:25:02] Like I could see that being really enjoyable and I don't know.

[00:25:05] Yeah.

[00:25:05] To me, it's like, that seems pretty straightforward.

[00:25:08] Like if I was going to join a game, yeah.

[00:25:09] I'm in it for whatever you guys are, you know, uh, providing as a storyteller.

[00:25:14] It's like, yeah, that's the whole point.

[00:25:16] Yeah.

[00:25:16] Showing up.

[00:25:17] Yeah.

[00:25:19] That to me is like, you've bought a video game and rather than do any of the main missions

[00:25:24] or even the side quests, it's like, nah, it's like, I just got Spider-Man the other

[00:25:28] day.

[00:25:28] Like, I'm just going to swing from like these two buildings.

[00:25:31] And ignore everything.

[00:25:32] Three hours and ignore everything.

[00:25:34] It's like, but why?

[00:25:37] That quickly, quickly, quickly becomes boring, right?

[00:25:40] Exactly.

[00:25:41] Yeah.

[00:25:41] Yeah.

[00:25:41] It's like when, especially if you're doing something like that, like, I don't know how you just

[00:25:45] don't sit there and say, well, they're all having fun on this adventure and I'm just sat

[00:25:49] here being an idiot.

[00:25:53] But that's why you give them a hangover.

[00:25:55] I like it.

[00:25:57] That's very cool.

[00:25:59] So I'm curious.

[00:26:01] And so in terms of how you develop the games, do you spend a lot of time looking like forums

[00:26:04] and stuff like that?

[00:26:05] Because I get the impression this is just such a massive world.

[00:26:10] I mean, obviously it's been going for 50 years.

[00:26:11] So there's, I imagine just an ocean of stuff like you could tap into, right?

[00:26:16] Yeah.

[00:26:17] There's, so a lot, there's an awful lot of reference books.

[00:26:21] Yeah.

[00:26:22] Yeah.

[00:26:22] So there's storybooks, basically, that a DM will buy and they'll be full of stories and

[00:26:28] adventures.

[00:26:29] Candlekeep that I'm running now has got, it's 20 stories from level one to 20.

[00:26:34] So by the end of it, as long as my group stays together to the end, they will have

[00:26:38] adventured together through 20 different stories and leveled up 20 times throughout that.

[00:26:45] And by level 20, you're basically a demigod at that point.

[00:26:49] You're indestructible.

[00:26:52] Right.

[00:26:52] Okay.

[00:26:53] So that's sort of the motivation for everyone.

[00:26:55] So we've just done, it's taken two sessions to finish the first story.

[00:26:58] Um, now I'm now starting to do my research on the second one to get that ready for two

[00:27:03] weeks time when we start that.

[00:27:07] there's, there's so much literature because it's all, it's all basic.

[00:27:10] It's all written.

[00:27:11] That's it.

[00:27:11] And that's again, what I enjoy reading anyway.

[00:27:13] So I enjoy having, I like having books.

[00:27:15] I mean, I've got all my Star Wars books up here and, um, I noticed my comics and stuff.

[00:27:21] And I, I like reading.

[00:27:22] I like, I like absorbing information that way.

[00:27:25] Um, yeah.

[00:27:26] Which is another reason I love D and D.

[00:27:27] I, I, the books are absolutely stunning.

[00:27:29] The artwork on the books is absolutely stunning.

[00:27:32] Um, they're quite expensive.

[00:27:34] I think like they range from anywhere with 30 to 50 pounds a book.

[00:27:40] Um, but it's a collector thing as well, isn't it?

[00:27:44] I think it's that.

[00:27:45] Yeah.

[00:27:46] Again, with everything, people, people have the things I like to collect.

[00:27:49] I just like to collect books and, and miniatures and stuff like that.

[00:27:52] So it all, all sort of ties in, but yeah, there is an absolute abundance of law

[00:27:57] on it.

[00:27:58] And like Matt mentioned, Matt said as well about, he goes on the forums and stuff

[00:28:00] like that.

[00:28:01] I haven't delved too much into the forums and stuff because I'm way too scared of

[00:28:04] that.

[00:28:06] I'm way too scared of getting, getting told I'm doing a terrible, horrendous job at what

[00:28:10] I'm doing.

[00:28:11] So.

[00:28:12] Understandable.

[00:28:13] Yeah.

[00:28:13] Yeah.

[00:28:13] The element of it being expensive is very valid.

[00:28:16] It is expensive.

[00:28:17] However, it can also be free.

[00:28:19] Like the basic rules are available for free online.

[00:28:22] You can go to DMs Guild, which is a website where people post adventures that they themselves

[00:28:26] have written.

[00:28:27] You have the paid or there's loads for free.

[00:28:30] You could like, you could, you could potentially never spend money on the game.

[00:28:33] You could get a free dice app on your phone, you know, a pen and paper is basically

[00:28:38] free.

[00:28:39] So just having said that though, I did have to lend Josh some money the other week.

[00:28:43] We were gigging in Manchester and he really wanted a D&D adventure book.

[00:28:47] So I had to lend him money because it was a weekend, weekend before payday.

[00:28:51] I don't think I've seen that money back actually.

[00:28:53] Yeah, you have.

[00:28:54] Yeah.

[00:28:54] Cause you need to buy football tickets the next day.

[00:29:01] I really need that money back.

[00:29:03] My friends are coming over from America and we're going to watch Leeds.

[00:29:05] Oh no, you went to see Bristol.

[00:29:06] You went to Bristol.

[00:29:07] You were actually getting there.

[00:29:08] That was a mistake.

[00:29:09] Yeah.

[00:29:10] You can't pull the water over my eyes, son.

[00:29:12] Touche.

[00:29:13] I love it.

[00:29:14] That's a good memory.

[00:29:15] It is.

[00:29:16] I don't know.

[00:29:16] That's actually the campaign I'm running now.

[00:29:17] So thank you for that, Matt.

[00:29:19] You're welcome.

[00:29:20] There you go.

[00:29:21] Football was in the middle if you were wondering.

[00:29:23] No, thank you for that.

[00:29:25] Was that City or Rovers?

[00:29:27] City.

[00:29:28] I got to ask as a Bristol boy.

[00:29:29] I have to ask.

[00:29:30] Yeah.

[00:29:31] Okay.

[00:29:32] Yeah.

[00:29:33] My condolences, Matt.

[00:29:34] So moving swiftly on.

[00:29:37] Yeah.

[00:29:38] No, this is what I love about it as well.

[00:29:40] It's just, it's to me, it is.

[00:29:41] You mentioned it earlier, Josh.

[00:29:43] It's being able to use your imagination and just the endless possibilities fascinate me

[00:29:48] around this stuff.

[00:29:49] You know, what I have heard, again, the very brief glimpse I've looked into this, it's.

[00:29:53] It seems like anything creative where it's like, yeah, whatever you can think of, you

[00:29:57] can, you can do within reason, obviously, you know, and, and that's surely the fun of

[00:30:02] it as well as just being able to come up with stories and explore this stuff and do it

[00:30:07] collaboratively as well.

[00:30:08] Like, as we, yeah, that's, that's the big thing.

[00:30:10] I think if, I think if you tried to play D&D with someone one-on-one, it's definitely doable.

[00:30:16] Yeah.

[00:30:17] But you'd have to have two like very, very willing participants.

[00:30:22] Yes.

[00:30:22] To make it work.

[00:30:24] A usual party is like three to four, maybe five people.

[00:30:29] Okay.

[00:30:29] I've got nine people in my group at the minute, which is mental.

[00:30:34] There's an awful lot of people to be running a group for.

[00:30:38] And it's, it's hard work at times because you've got so many different people trying

[00:30:43] to do different things at the same time.

[00:30:45] So there's a lot of like micromanaging that has to go on, like on my side of the screen.

[00:30:51] But what I do find is when you've got a couple of well-established parties within that group

[00:30:56] of people or everyone's together, um, you, I'll sit for half an hour sometimes and people

[00:31:03] will just be throwing ideas at each other until they come up with a plan and stuff like

[00:31:06] that.

[00:31:07] And it's just, it's just watching like ideas come to fruition and everyone's brains like

[00:31:11] kicking into overdrive and working.

[00:31:13] But I just absolutely love, I absolutely love the creativity of it.

[00:31:16] It's, there's nothing better.

[00:31:18] I don't think.

[00:31:19] I guess there's an element of power fantasy to it as well, because like, okay.

[00:31:23] I'm quite an unremarkable person in day-to-day life.

[00:31:26] Like, you know, I work science adjacent.

[00:31:31] It's not very exciting, but like within D&D, you know, you can be playing a wizard who can

[00:31:37] wish things into existence from nothing and like fungifyables or like a barbarian who hits

[00:31:43] people with a massive axe.

[00:31:44] Like I can't go around knocking people around with a massive axe.

[00:31:47] So within the game or at least, you know, within your imagination, it's quite cool.

[00:31:52] And there is like an element of like kleptomania as well, like collecting the books, but also

[00:31:57] within the game, just like hoarding, just hoarding resources.

[00:32:01] Yeah.

[00:32:01] You know, all this gold, nothing to spend it on.

[00:32:05] It's quite satisfying in that regard when I can't even, you know, put 50 pound in my savings

[00:32:10] at the end of the month.

[00:32:13] Imaginarily anyway, instead.

[00:32:14] I can't afford a house, but I do have a castle in Dungeons & Dragons.

[00:32:18] Yeah, exactly.

[00:32:19] There's that.

[00:32:19] There's a generation in D&D that you're F against really.

[00:32:22] So no landlords.

[00:32:25] And if there are, you kill them.

[00:32:27] Yeah.

[00:32:28] Yeah.

[00:32:28] Take it by force.

[00:32:30] Yeah.

[00:32:30] I've never played anything that gives off quite as much like free serotonin before.

[00:32:37] Hmm.

[00:32:38] Like, again, to expand on what Matt's saying, like having your like your hoard of money,

[00:32:43] having a DM say to you like, OK, there's 200 gold pieces to split between four of you.

[00:32:49] And you're like, oh, yeah.

[00:32:52] You know, it's like payday every time you hear that.

[00:32:54] And I'm playing.

[00:32:56] I've been playing video games since I was nine, 10 years old.

[00:32:59] Yeah.

[00:33:01] And you level up in video games all the time.

[00:33:03] Leveling up in like a campaign as a player is the ultimate serotonin boost.

[00:33:09] Yeah.

[00:33:10] You get to spend like hours like having a fiddle around with your character sheet and all this and that.

[00:33:14] And it's like evolving in real time.

[00:33:17] Yeah.

[00:33:17] Yeah.

[00:33:18] And it's crazy.

[00:33:18] Like you get, you get actual, like the actual difference between each level and Dungeons & Dragons is awesome as well.

[00:33:23] It's like really rewarding for players.

[00:33:25] And yeah, it's nice to, you can see people's faces light up.

[00:33:29] But when they, when they, when they get something good, whatever it may be.

[00:33:34] Yeah.

[00:33:34] Get a new skill that you couldn't do 10 minutes ago.

[00:33:37] And then the next time you're running around bashing people and doing backflips and stuff, you're like, cool.

[00:33:42] This is awesome.

[00:33:45] I like that.

[00:33:46] I like that a lot.

[00:33:47] Yeah.

[00:33:49] Something I've always wondered as well, like, again, like looking into this world a little bit is in terms of building this narrative, building the story.

[00:33:59] I imagine as well, it sort of tests your ability to listen, right?

[00:34:02] And sort of take note of things that happen.

[00:34:04] And something I've got a little bit of satisfaction just out of listening to like D&D podcasts is when the person like calls something back.

[00:34:12] Yeah.

[00:34:13] That happened previously or like brings a character back.

[00:34:15] And I'm always like, oh, that's really good.

[00:34:17] Yeah.

[00:34:18] And I think, yeah, that must be quite satisfying.

[00:34:19] Do you guys sort of look out for things like that then when you're, when you're sort of DMing?

[00:34:22] You always like quick, just make a mental note of, oh, that's interesting.

[00:34:26] I'll, I'll put that in the back pocket for later.

[00:34:28] Yeah.

[00:34:28] And you can also use it against people as well.

[00:34:30] Like if they're friends and your big bad guy kills them off or they'll be out for revenge.

[00:34:36] And then that gives them all the motivation.

[00:34:38] They've kind of created their own motivation to carry on with your story.

[00:34:41] And you're just there like, you know, cackling to yourself thinking, ha ha, played right into my hands.

[00:34:48] And also like we're talking about the collaborative nature of it, that there's like an element of like reading the room because you can work out how a story goes.

[00:34:55] Like, is this, is this the right angle to go down?

[00:34:57] Is this working?

[00:34:58] Should I try something else?

[00:35:00] Like maybe, maybe they're not into this storyline and you can kind of curtail it a bit quicker than you would do.

[00:35:06] Otherwise I'm moving a different direction.

[00:35:08] It is like, it's like live sort of, I don't know.

[00:35:11] You're making it up as you go.

[00:35:14] Yeah.

[00:35:15] So yeah.

[00:35:15] That makes sense.

[00:35:17] I don't know where I was going with that.

[00:35:18] Sorry.

[00:35:20] I kind of just got petered off into nothing.

[00:35:22] That's fine.

[00:35:23] Don't worry.

[00:35:24] Harley, Harley, what podcast have you, have you dipped into D&D wise?

[00:35:28] There's a couple of ones that I'm going to potentially reach out to.

[00:35:32] Let's see.

[00:35:33] The main one I've been all over is Dungeons and Daddies.

[00:35:36] Yes.

[00:35:36] I'm falling in love with that.

[00:35:38] Yeah, mate.

[00:35:40] One of the best.

[00:35:41] Yeah.

[00:35:42] What's the other one?

[00:35:42] Not Another D&D Podcast.

[00:35:44] I mean, that's one of the biggest ones.

[00:35:45] Yeah, they're cool.

[00:35:46] Dungeons, Dudes and Dragons is one that came up on Instagram.

[00:35:48] I'm going to check them out.

[00:35:49] I have not yet checked them out, but by all accounts, they seem to do quite well.

[00:35:54] But yeah, there's a few that I'm looking at.

[00:35:56] I mean, Dungeons and Daddies is like the one I look at the most because I just think there

[00:36:02] was something about it.

[00:36:04] My wife recommended it to me.

[00:36:05] Like her of all people, like somewhere across it was like, okay, all right, check this out.

[00:36:12] And it's something that made a lot of sense to me.

[00:36:14] Again, it's like going back to our thing about being metalheads, right?

[00:36:17] And being into fantasy and stuff.

[00:36:19] It's like the Venn diagram.

[00:36:21] When I realized it was, oh, it's comedy writers working on a fantasy story on Dungeons and

[00:36:27] Dragons.

[00:36:27] I was like, oh, I can see how that links up.

[00:36:30] You know, the ability to play characters, to write a narrative, all of that good stuff.

[00:36:34] Like what you were talking about, right?

[00:36:36] That collaborative nature.

[00:36:37] I was like, yeah, I can totally see how these two things mesh.

[00:36:40] And it's really entertaining.

[00:36:42] Anthony Birch, the DM of Dungeons and Daddies for the first two seasons, was actually wrote

[00:36:48] the story for the last God of War game.

[00:36:51] That's right.

[00:36:52] Yeah.

[00:36:52] Yeah.

[00:36:53] So he, again, he's used D&D mechanics.

[00:36:56] He's written a story entirely off his own back, set in the world of D&D with four of

[00:37:03] his friends who are writers and actors and stuff, acting on it.

[00:37:06] And it's one of the most cathartic podcasts I've ever listened to.

[00:37:11] I'm literally weekly now listening to the season three of it.

[00:37:14] It's fantastic.

[00:37:14] It's so much fun.

[00:37:15] It is really good.

[00:37:17] Yeah.

[00:37:17] And that was also something else that introduced me to the idea of different styles of games.

[00:37:22] Yeah.

[00:37:23] You know, because for anyone who's been following it, like the first season is kind of straightforward

[00:37:26] Dungeons and Dragons kind of fantasy.

[00:37:29] The second one's a bit more futuristic.

[00:37:30] Yeah.

[00:37:30] The third one is like a Call of Cthulhu thing, which I was like, that's a thing.

[00:37:35] And then I sort of went and Googled.

[00:37:36] I was like, oh yeah, it's a whole other.

[00:37:38] Yeah.

[00:37:38] It's a completely different game.

[00:37:40] Yeah.

[00:37:41] Which is, again, fascinating to me that you have different game mechanics and you can

[00:37:45] create all these different worlds and styles, which I think, again, just has like a lot

[00:37:50] of fun.

[00:37:50] And it's, again, the thing that really got me about it was it was really fun just to

[00:37:56] listen to these guys engage in a story, but also just the improvisational nature of it,

[00:38:02] I thought was very funny.

[00:38:03] And again, I could see how like, yeah, comedy writer, comedy actor in a game, which is pretty

[00:38:09] much based around improvising, right?

[00:38:11] Which is entirely based around somebody going, you're in this scenario, you meet this person.

[00:38:16] What do you do?

[00:38:17] It's like, yeah, give that to somebody that's funny.

[00:38:19] Like you're going to have a good time.

[00:38:21] Yeah, exactly right.

[00:38:23] Yeah.

[00:38:23] Have you not dabbled in critical role at all?

[00:38:26] I'm about to say critical role.

[00:38:27] Critical role.

[00:38:28] That was the other one.

[00:38:29] Yes.

[00:38:29] Yeah.

[00:38:29] I have listened to one or two.

[00:38:31] Again, I've got so many podcasts to listen to.

[00:38:34] Being a podcaster is exhausting.

[00:38:38] As someone who has a lot of time on his hands through working on his own and running a show,

[00:38:43] I'm constantly checking shows out.

[00:38:44] But yeah, critical role was another one that came up and I can see why.

[00:38:47] Again, very engaging, very interesting.

[00:38:49] Yeah.

[00:38:49] I mean, Matt Mercer, their DM is possibly the greatest DM on planet Earth.

[00:38:55] Really?

[00:38:55] Yeah.

[00:38:56] He is a superhuman DM.

[00:38:59] And they're all great voice actors as well.

[00:39:01] And they're there for creating a fantastic story.

[00:39:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:39:06] Have you seen the Amazon series?

[00:39:08] I was going to say, have you seen the animated series?

[00:39:10] I have not.

[00:39:11] They've got an Amazon series as well.

[00:39:12] Is it two series?

[00:39:13] No, season three's just finished.

[00:39:15] Oh, okay.

[00:39:15] It's called The Legend of Ox Machina, Harley.

[00:39:18] It's on Amazon.

[00:39:18] Okay.

[00:39:19] It's free to watch if you've got Prime.

[00:39:20] It's an adult animated series based off campaign one of Critical Role.

[00:39:26] It was their first campaign they did.

[00:39:29] It's super violent, super bad language.

[00:39:33] Lots of little tidbits.

[00:39:37] If you've played the game or listened to the campaign, there's lots of throwbacks, lots

[00:39:41] of bits where you go, ah, they would have rolled the dice there because they make a

[00:39:44] little sly comment to, oh, very perceptive or something like that.

[00:39:47] And they've just finished season three.

[00:39:50] I think it was number one on the TV charts, season three, when it came out globally.

[00:39:57] Right.

[00:39:58] And this is just off a campaign that started in their living room as a birthday party thing

[00:40:03] for one of their friends is now they're the biggest Dungeons and Dragons streaming.

[00:40:07] Well, it's a multimedia company now.

[00:40:09] They've got all sorts.

[00:40:09] They've got their fingers and all sorts of spies.

[00:40:11] But yeah, they are like the kings, the gods of the D&D world, really.

[00:40:17] One I should shout out as well to Harley is the Adventure Zone.

[00:40:21] So I love the Adventure Zone because it's three brothers and their dad playing D&D.

[00:40:26] And they don't really know the rules very well at the start of it.

[00:40:29] But by the end of it, I'm not too manly admit, I was crying at the end.

[00:40:34] It was like, ugh, blubbering.

[00:40:37] Yeah, yeah.

[00:40:39] Fantastic.

[00:40:39] It's really good.

[00:40:40] They start off playing like literally the starter set that you get from Waterstones for like 20 quid.

[00:40:46] Last Minds of Phandelver and it kind of goes into really strange directions as Griffin makes the rest of the story.

[00:40:53] They've released graphic novels of it actually now as well, which is really cool.

[00:40:57] But yeah, that's well worth a try.

[00:40:59] I don't know if you ever heard My Brother, My Brother and Me on another podcast.

[00:41:04] No, I haven't.

[00:41:06] But it's the same people.

[00:41:07] It's the same people plus their dad playing the indie.

[00:41:10] It's really good.

[00:41:11] I haven't even checked that out, actually.

[00:41:12] I do remember you telling me about that, Matt.

[00:41:14] I will give that a look.

[00:41:16] Lots of recommendations, everyone.

[00:41:17] I love it.

[00:41:18] What do you think it is about this then that works so well in the world of podcasting?

[00:41:23] Because it is like its own separate entity now in this space.

[00:41:27] Yeah, well, it's not a visual medium.

[00:41:29] First of all, it's perfect for audio because you're just doing it in your imagination anyway.

[00:41:33] So, you know, if someone is listening to a D&D podcast, it's almost like they're a member of the party because, you know, they're doing exactly the same thing the players are doing other than rolling dice and making decisions.

[00:41:43] So, yeah, you can make up, you can visualize the characters, visualize their enemies, the environments they're in.

[00:41:50] It's perfect for audio.

[00:41:53] That's very true.

[00:41:54] Yeah, I got a minute whenever I listen to stuff.

[00:41:56] Yeah, your imagination starts kicking in and, yeah, you do get sucked into the story and into the world.

[00:42:03] It's, yeah, it's really good fun to listen to.

[00:42:06] And I think the thing I'm getting from it as well, and just from talking to you guys is it seems very accessible.

[00:42:13] That's the other thing, right?

[00:42:14] For something that is as established, absolutely massive, you know, it's been going for decades, has all these different styles of game, yada, yada, yada.

[00:42:24] It seems at the very basic level, it's quite accessible, right?

[00:42:28] It's not like...

[00:42:29] Matt hit the nail on the head, especially as a player coming into it new.

[00:42:32] You literally don't need anything but a pen and paper, really.

[00:42:36] Hmm.

[00:42:38] And there's not many things nowadays that you can get away with that.

[00:42:42] You need a pen and paper and a head on your shoulders, and you can play Dungeons & Dragons.

[00:42:47] Oh, imagine trying to do something else in that sort of space, you know?

[00:42:50] Maybe you want to play like 40k or like Age of Sigmar or something.

[00:42:54] Oh my God.

[00:42:54] You're going to drop like 500 pounds, 1,000 pounds on an army to be able to play?

[00:42:58] Or you're going to play, you know, you're going to download a free adventure off DM's Guild,

[00:43:04] or like I said, go to Waterstones and pick up a starter set that comes with dice and an adventure,

[00:43:09] and it basically rolls for like 20 quid.

[00:43:11] Like the barrier for entry is very, very low, which is...

[00:43:14] It's perfect, really.

[00:43:15] But like Josh said earlier, you can really go into it if you want to.

[00:43:20] Yeah.

[00:43:20] And get all the source books, all the adventures, or just make up your own.

[00:43:23] And I'd argue making up your own is probably the better experience, really,

[00:43:29] because you can tailor it to yourself and you're not so railroaded.

[00:43:32] Yeah, yeah.

[00:43:33] So you don't have like a particular style of game that you prefer, or...?

[00:43:38] I don't know.

[00:43:39] I just like rolling dice and attacking stuff.

[00:43:41] I like normally, like with most of my...

[00:43:45] Like on Borders Gate 3, for example, I had a party that was a fighter,

[00:43:51] barbarian, monk, and oathbreaker paladin, which just attack stuff.

[00:43:55] They're just meathead characters, and that's just like how I like to play it.

[00:43:59] But I reckon Josh, I can see Josh as more of a bard, really.

[00:44:04] I like playing as Mr. Charismatic.

[00:44:07] No, I'm always...

[00:44:08] I like my rogue characters.

[00:44:10] I like a stealthy character.

[00:44:11] Yeah.

[00:44:12] I'm always sneaking about.

[00:44:14] Yep.

[00:44:14] Yeah, if I can get through a situation without A, anyone seeing me,

[00:44:18] and B, without having to hurt anyone,

[00:44:21] and still walk away with pockets and pockets full of gold and gems

[00:44:26] and whatever else I get my hands on,

[00:44:28] then I'd walk away from that feeling absolutely fantastic, to be honest.

[00:44:34] I feel like I'm learning a lot.

[00:44:36] Yeah.

[00:44:36] I feel like I'm learning a lot about both your personalities.

[00:44:38] Yeah.

[00:44:40] That's the beauty of it, is you can sort of do the opposite,

[00:44:42] because I'm an incredibly loud and obnoxious person in real life.

[00:44:46] Yeah.

[00:44:48] You definitely know what Josh is about.

[00:44:50] Yeah.

[00:44:50] When he's in the van.

[00:44:51] He nearly gave me a panic attack once in the van,

[00:44:54] because he was shouting, and the music on was on about 30.

[00:44:57] It was pitch black, like lights on the motorway.

[00:45:00] I was like, please stop shouting, I am going to explode.

[00:45:04] So yeah, a rogue's perfect for you in that regard.

[00:45:06] Yeah, and then you are the least likely person I've ever met

[00:45:10] to go running into anywhere with any form of weapon

[00:45:14] and trying to hurt anyone.

[00:45:17] So yeah, again, that boils into the nature of the game, I guess.

[00:45:22] People can come in and act out fantasies, I guess,

[00:45:27] of living these lives that they would never live in the real world.

[00:45:31] Yeah, yeah.

[00:45:32] Which I think, yeah, it's just beautiful.

[00:45:34] It's beautiful stuff.

[00:45:35] It's poetry.

[00:45:36] It is, yeah.

[00:45:37] No, it is.

[00:45:38] And that's the whole point of playing games, isn't it?

[00:45:41] Yeah, exactly right.

[00:45:42] Telling stories, like you say.

[00:45:43] It's like, you don't want to be yourself.

[00:45:44] You want to be somebody else and explore and just have fun.

[00:45:48] And again, I guess it's a reason why so many writers, actors,

[00:45:53] actually, that's not an actor.

[00:45:54] I heard, what's her name?

[00:45:57] Deborah Ann Wolfe, if you're familiar.

[00:45:58] Yeah, I heard her on an interview not that long ago.

[00:46:01] Was that with John Burfall?

[00:46:03] It was.

[00:46:03] That's the one, yeah.

[00:46:05] And it's her.

[00:46:06] And I forget the actor's name.

[00:46:10] Oh, I can use IMDb jingle.

[00:46:12] Here we go.

[00:46:13] What do I know?

[00:46:13] What do I know?

[00:46:14] He hasn't won an awesome.

[00:46:14] I knew there was a straight CVD sequel.

[00:46:16] Nicholas Cage's game.

[00:46:17] How many seasons were there?

[00:46:24] Ladies and gentlemen, it's time to IMDb.

[00:46:35] You can use IMDb.

[00:46:36] I already know who you're going to say.

[00:46:40] Go on, go on.

[00:46:41] No, no, I'm not going to spoil your jingle.

[00:46:43] Okay.

[00:46:43] I know him as the Flash from original Sam Raimi Spider-Man.

[00:46:47] I thought you were going to say Ezra Miller, then.

[00:46:49] It's Big Joe, isn't it?

[00:46:51] Joe Manganiello.

[00:46:52] Joe Manganiello.

[00:46:53] There we go.

[00:46:53] I'm still playing the jingle.

[00:46:55] He was on Critical Role.

[00:46:56] He was on Critical Role, yeah.

[00:46:56] Play the jingle.

[00:46:57] Shut up, Josh.

[00:46:58] Yeah, I've already played it.

[00:46:59] Don't you worry.

[00:46:59] But yeah, that makes sense.

[00:47:01] Yeah, because.

[00:47:02] And that's another.

[00:47:03] Yeah, I heard him in the interview talking about it.

[00:47:06] And there's a few actors, I think, out there who are all like big into this.

[00:47:09] Vin Diesel, Keanu Reeves.

[00:47:12] There you go.

[00:47:12] Of course, Keanu Reeves.

[00:47:13] The big show.

[00:47:13] Yeah, the big show.

[00:47:15] Yeah, he goes around.

[00:47:15] He goes around.

[00:47:16] So Joe Manganiello's got like a basement in his house in LA.

[00:47:19] He does, yeah.

[00:47:20] It's called the Gary Gygax basement in his house.

[00:47:23] Gary Gygax, the guy who invented D&D.

[00:47:26] And they have like these big like Hollywoods, all the actors that will play will come around

[00:47:31] his house on a Saturday night and just get absolutely trashed and play D&D in his basement.

[00:47:35] Amazing.

[00:47:36] But Joe, his character that he played on Critical Role has now been written into like Dungeons

[00:47:41] and Dragons canon.

[00:47:43] Really?

[00:47:44] Yeah, because of what he did in the Critical Role campaign.

[00:47:47] It was like absolutely insane.

[00:47:49] And they've literally like immortalized his character in Dungeons and Dragons lore now.

[00:47:53] That's nuts.

[00:47:54] Which I think is like a player of Dungeons and Dragons.

[00:47:56] That is like the ultimate goal.

[00:47:57] It's like to get Wizards of the Coast to like immortalize your character forever.

[00:48:01] So however long this game lives on, if it lives on another 50, 100 years or whatever,

[00:48:06] long after Joe Manganiello is not here, his character will survive forever as part of like D&D lore,

[00:48:12] which is just absolutely mental.

[00:48:15] That's wild.

[00:48:16] Yeah.

[00:48:16] I love that.

[00:48:17] Yeah, that's really cool.

[00:48:19] And the thing about it that's to me, particularly in the Debra Ann Wall interview, was her saying

[00:48:23] about as an actor, how like it helps to kind of flex that muscle a lot, you know, of like

[00:48:29] playing characters or guiding other people through certain things.

[00:48:33] And I was like, yeah, I could see that.

[00:48:35] I can totally see that.

[00:48:36] And again, like just listening to the podcast, like I wanted to know if you guys do the same

[00:48:39] thing of like, it sounds like a lot of fun where sometimes the DMs or even the people

[00:48:44] playing characters will like put on a voice, you know, and like just to get into that character

[00:48:49] and just I imagine that's also another element of it.

[00:48:51] Right.

[00:48:52] It could just be quite a bit of fun.

[00:48:53] It's hard to start doing that.

[00:48:55] It is very hard to start doing that.

[00:48:57] Yeah.

[00:48:57] Yeah.

[00:48:58] When I had friends around my house, like they're people I've been friends with for

[00:49:01] like 20 years.

[00:49:02] And if I'm going to start doing like a voice of a goblin in front of them, my skin won't

[00:49:07] crawl.

[00:49:08] And I had like the idea of having like ambient music and stuff off Spotify, like tavern music.

[00:49:13] And they're like, what is this?

[00:49:14] What are you doing?

[00:49:15] Then after a while it goes away and they're like, actually, it does add to it.

[00:49:19] It definitely helps.

[00:49:20] I'm literally thinking of that one episode of the IT crowd where Moss does exactly that.

[00:49:26] He plays a sound.

[00:49:27] I was going for Ruddy Mysterious.

[00:49:31] Yeah.

[00:49:33] That's why Critical Role is good because they do their voices and they do them really well

[00:49:36] as well.

[00:49:37] Yeah.

[00:49:38] That's it.

[00:49:39] I think, again, that's half the fun, right?

[00:49:41] Of just doing that.

[00:49:42] And I imagine as well, even with your mates, like you said, once you get past that initial

[00:49:45] like self-conscious thing of, no, it pulls you in.

[00:49:48] It brings you into that world.

[00:49:50] It took me a long while to start doing it.

[00:49:52] It took me a long while.

[00:49:53] It was only my game last night.

[00:49:55] I really, really settled in with a couple of voices and stuff and had a lot of fun with

[00:49:59] them.

[00:50:00] Lovely.

[00:50:00] It's just breaking that barrier because it's not something you do in normal life unless you

[00:50:06] were a voice actor or an actor anyway.

[00:50:08] Right.

[00:50:09] Right.

[00:50:09] Yeah.

[00:50:10] Like Matt, again, nail on the head.

[00:50:12] Yeah.

[00:50:13] Especially when you were your mates who were just going to look at you and go, what are

[00:50:15] you doing?

[00:50:17] Why are you doing that?

[00:50:19] I was being a wizard.

[00:50:20] Yeah.

[00:50:23] What kind of character would you see yourself playing, Harley?

[00:50:26] That's a good question.

[00:50:29] I'm not too familiar.

[00:50:31] Do you know what?

[00:50:31] I'm going to Google.

[00:50:32] Google jingle.

[00:50:32] Oh, what's his name?

[00:50:34] Who knows?

[00:50:37] It's time.

[00:50:41] I can get my player's guide out.

[00:50:43] We can build one right now.

[00:50:44] Like I used to do on my own in my bedroom with my Slipknot posters on the wall.

[00:50:48] Let's do it.

[00:50:50] Why not?

[00:50:51] I was going to Google Dungeons and Dragons characters, but yeah, let's build a character.

[00:50:55] Why not?

[00:50:57] Have you got any dice, Matt?

[00:50:59] No.

[00:51:03] So you use a character class.

[00:51:05] You can get a character creator online.

[00:51:07] Can I?

[00:51:09] Can you?

[00:51:10] Yeah.

[00:51:10] What's it called?

[00:51:13] The Deep Beyond?

[00:51:14] No, because you don't want to do it on there.

[00:51:15] It's way too complicated.

[00:51:16] There's one called.

[00:51:18] I can't remember what it's called.

[00:51:19] I can't call it.

[00:51:20] I've got Dungeon Masters Vault.

[00:51:23] D&D Beyond.

[00:51:24] Roll 20.

[00:51:26] Class Character.

[00:51:28] Aid D&D.

[00:51:30] Let's do it on D&D Beyond.

[00:51:32] Yeah, that's the one I kept hearing a lot in various podcasts.

[00:51:36] This is happening in real time, folks.

[00:51:39] I thought you would edit this bit out.

[00:51:41] Nah!

[00:51:42] I told you.

[00:51:45] You'd be surprised how much I leave in.

[00:51:49] Tolerance for dead air.

[00:51:51] Oh, yeah, no.

[00:51:52] I mean, I'll clip bits together, but yeah.

[00:51:54] Fundamentals pod.

[00:51:55] I'm going to just create as a username, because why not?

[00:51:59] Build a character.

[00:52:02] This is great.

[00:52:02] I did not see this happening on this episode.

[00:52:05] There we go.

[00:52:05] You'll be playing with us in a couple of weeks.

[00:52:08] Yeah, probably.

[00:52:09] Knowing me.

[00:52:10] Yeah.

[00:52:11] All right.

[00:52:12] So should I just go with standard?

[00:52:14] Just do 2014 core rules.

[00:52:16] It's probably easiest.

[00:52:18] Like, where it says sources, just untick everything other than 2014 core rules.

[00:52:22] All right.

[00:52:23] Oh, yeah.

[00:52:23] We want dice rolling, because we're not...

[00:52:25] You can't decide your character traits.

[00:52:28] That's true.

[00:52:29] That's true.

[00:52:30] Oh, yeah.

[00:52:31] That Lord of the Rings...

[00:52:32] Wizards of the Coast had just released that Lord of the Rings...

[00:52:36] The first book of the Lord of the Rings series.

[00:52:38] But it's set in...

[00:52:39] It's all the same rules.

[00:52:41] But set in Middle-Earth as opposed to Faerun, which is cool.

[00:52:45] Okay.

[00:52:47] The first thing you would decide if you're making a character is your class.

[00:52:52] It's super important.

[00:52:53] Do you see yourself as someone who can shapeshift into the shape of animals?

[00:53:00] Do you see someone who's made a pact with a demon that gives you power?

[00:53:04] Do you see yourself as, like, a soldier wearing plate mail and maybe with a sword and shield?

[00:53:11] Or do you see yourself Josh sneaking up and stealing stuff before anyone else can get their grabby mitts on it?

[00:53:17] Hmm.

[00:53:19] Yeah.

[00:53:19] Yeah.

[00:53:20] We've got Barbarian Bard, Cleric Druid, Fighter Monk, Paladin Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard.

[00:53:25] See, this is the interesting thing.

[00:53:26] Now, I'm looking at all of these and I'm like, A, half of them, I don't know what they do.

[00:53:29] But B...

[00:53:33] If you were to have to fight someone in real life, how would you want to do it?

[00:53:38] Such a good question.

[00:53:39] Would you electrocute them?

[00:53:40] I'd want to not fight them.

[00:53:46] A Bard?

[00:53:47] Is that perfect?

[00:53:48] Yeah, a Bard.

[00:53:48] That sounds like a Bard to me.

[00:53:49] Sounds like you're going to talk yourself out of the situation.

[00:53:52] Hmm.

[00:53:54] A Bard or a Cleric?

[00:53:57] What's a Cleric?

[00:53:58] So a Cleric could be like a healer.

[00:54:00] Okay.

[00:54:01] So, I mean, you can get like, you can subclass as like a war Cleric.

[00:54:05] So a Cleric who's a bit tasty and likes to scrap.

[00:54:08] Or, yeah, a Cleric often would sort of stay out of the fight and just be there to heal anyone when they need it.

[00:54:16] Hmm.

[00:54:17] Or like Matt said, a Bard would be really charismatic, sing songs and...

[00:54:21] Yeah.

[00:54:23] Given what we've already discussed, and you guys can probably see behind me,

[00:54:27] all of this nonsense.

[00:54:28] Is there a loot back there?

[00:54:31] I mean, there will be soon.

[00:54:36] I think, yeah, we have only one choice.

[00:54:39] Bard is it.

[00:54:40] Okay, so, cool traits.

[00:54:42] And then you'd have to think about like...

[00:54:44] You can choose your instruments and stuff.

[00:54:46] Oh, yeah.

[00:54:47] Yeah.

[00:54:48] You could carry around a little amp with a fantasy battery plugged into it.

[00:54:54] If you wanted to.

[00:54:56] And the pick of destiny.

[00:54:57] We had a Bard in one of the campaigns we were playing last year.

[00:55:01] And at the end, at the start of each new session, he would sing a recap.

[00:55:06] And this is like in real life.

[00:55:08] He'd write the lyrics to a popular song that he'd find based around what happened in the last campaign.

[00:55:15] He'd change all the lyrics to be the recap of the campaign.

[00:55:18] And he'd sing it to everyone around the table.

[00:55:20] Wow.

[00:55:21] Yeah.

[00:55:22] And again, it's like being mates of it, the first time we did it, I was like, oh, no.

[00:55:27] I was like, oh, this is awful.

[00:55:29] But by the second or third time, you're like, this is 10 out of 10 for creativity and staying in character.

[00:55:34] And actually like role playing is absolutely brilliant.

[00:55:37] Players on the table dancing.

[00:55:39] Yeah.

[00:55:41] What would your race be, do you think?

[00:55:44] So like human, dwarf, elf, half elf, gnome.

[00:55:50] Ooh.

[00:55:50] Half orc.

[00:55:52] What do you see yourself as?

[00:55:54] Is that in here?

[00:55:56] It's a decision to make.

[00:55:58] Ah, okay.

[00:56:00] Basically, I was just looking at my basic traits and just sort of playing around.

[00:56:03] But in terms of other ones, give me those again.

[00:56:07] Sorry.

[00:56:08] So you've got human.

[00:56:09] Uh-huh.

[00:56:10] Dwarf.

[00:56:10] It's all the fantasy tropes.

[00:56:12] Yeah.

[00:56:13] Elves.

[00:56:13] Yeah.

[00:56:13] Half elves.

[00:56:15] Half orcs.

[00:56:16] Gnomes.

[00:56:17] Halflings.

[00:56:18] A gnome barbarian is the best character, arguably.

[00:56:22] What is that?

[00:56:22] I bet a guy who's like three foot tall with an axe that's like as big as him.

[00:56:27] Amazing.

[00:56:27] Partying to battle bonking people on the head is great fun.

[00:56:30] I'm going to go half elf, half human.

[00:56:33] Half elf.

[00:56:34] Oh.

[00:56:35] Oh.

[00:56:35] I've got something to show you.

[00:56:37] Oh, dear.

[00:56:39] Oh, hello.

[00:56:39] This is great for an audio.

[00:56:41] It's an audio format.

[00:56:42] That is a half elf bard, a Lego character.

[00:56:46] Oh, wow.

[00:56:49] Do me a favor and send me a picture of that.

[00:56:51] That's going on socials.

[00:56:52] I will do.

[00:56:53] That's remarkable.

[00:56:55] We did not plan that, folks.

[00:56:56] That genuinely happened.

[00:56:58] On terms of traits, I picked a bunch of instruments and I'm thinking like persuasion, perception,

[00:57:02] survival.

[00:57:03] So like.

[00:57:03] Yeah.

[00:57:04] That kind of makes sense to me.

[00:57:06] It's like.

[00:57:06] Yeah.

[00:57:07] Yeah.

[00:57:07] Not in the fight, but just.

[00:57:09] Yeah.

[00:57:10] You can kind of read a room and know what to do.

[00:57:13] And what to say.

[00:57:14] And what to say in order to get out of it.

[00:57:16] Yeah.

[00:57:17] You're the face of the party.

[00:57:18] Doing all the talking, doing all the negotiations, but then also ripping a huge loot solo that

[00:57:24] like messes with the minds of your enemies and makes their brain explode.

[00:57:29] So I mean, what's cooler than that?

[00:57:30] I don't think anything, to be honest.

[00:57:34] And bardic inspiration as well is something that like all bards have that they can just

[00:57:37] cast at any time.

[00:57:39] So a bardic inspiration gives like, I think it's like one D8s worth of like points on

[00:57:46] top of someone's role.

[00:57:48] But a minute when they cast it and it's so, so, so like OP because they can just cast

[00:57:54] it as many times as they like.

[00:57:56] Inspiration, inspiration, inspiration to help people out with their roles and stuff like

[00:58:00] that.

[00:58:00] It's just a bardic is just the best.

[00:58:02] Just awesome characters.

[00:58:03] They're super like master everything.

[00:58:04] I think they're the only character other than wizard that can learn wish as well, which

[00:58:08] is like the most powerful spell.

[00:58:13] Can bards learn wish?

[00:58:14] So I moved, I moved ahead and you can choose the backgrounds and I've gone with folk hero.

[00:58:24] Oh, okay.

[00:58:25] So like a Robin Hood type.

[00:58:27] Kind of, you know, write, write your own myths, sing your own songs, you know, that sort

[00:58:31] of thing.

[00:58:32] Yeah.

[00:58:32] And only half of them are true as well.

[00:58:35] Yeah.

[00:58:35] Exactly.

[00:58:36] One character saying how you defeated, you defeated the gold dragon or something and stole

[00:58:40] his horde away.

[00:58:42] Like some guy at the pub.

[00:58:45] Build your own hype.

[00:58:46] Um, yeah.

[00:58:48] And it says that you can add suggested characteristics.

[00:58:51] This is interesting.

[00:58:52] So you kind of pick.

[00:58:54] Yeah.

[00:58:55] Okay.

[00:58:55] So you're picking your personality traits, your ideals.

[00:58:58] Yeah.

[00:58:58] And those things are like things that kind of inform how you, I mean, you don't have

[00:59:02] to, but they kind of inform how you role play your character.

[00:59:04] Like, yeah.

[00:59:06] Yeah.

[00:59:07] What's your end goal?

[00:59:08] And it helps the DM as well.

[00:59:09] Like tailor the story to your character as well.

[00:59:13] Yeah.

[00:59:15] Yeah.

[00:59:15] I like this.

[00:59:16] I like this a lot.

[00:59:17] Yeah.

[00:59:17] It sounds like a lot of fun.

[00:59:18] You can get really into it.

[00:59:20] Yeah.

[00:59:20] You can get too into it.

[00:59:21] Some might say when you're on your own at home, but age 12 with no mates.

[00:59:29] I want to know, have you pulled out any of those characters since?

[00:59:34] I don't know.

[00:59:35] They probably went in the bin as quickly as they were.

[00:59:38] As they came into existence.

[00:59:40] No one found him.

[00:59:42] Yeah.

[00:59:42] They're buried for good.

[00:59:44] But here's the thing.

[00:59:46] Has that helped you then moving forward as a creative now?

[00:59:50] So as somebody that works in, well, you know, as an artist basically is what I'm asking.

[00:59:56] Like, do you find like doing games like this kind of helps you to flex that creative muscle?

[00:59:59] Yeah, I think so.

[01:00:01] I am.

[01:00:02] When we're talking about numbers and intricacies of making characters and things like that,

[01:00:06] that kind of informs how I write the words to the songs.

[01:00:11] Because I get real nerdy with it.

[01:00:13] Like I work out how many syllables I can fit into each section of the song.

[01:00:17] And I'm like, okay, so this one's like da-da-da-da-da-da.

[01:00:20] So I can fit four syllables into this song, which means, into this line, which means the

[01:00:24] next line I can do three.

[01:00:26] And then I go back to four.

[01:00:27] Like I work it out super mathematically.

[01:00:29] Because I really like it when the words like flow with the songs.

[01:00:33] I find I listen to a lot of music and I could almost hear the person's written the words

[01:00:39] before the song has existed and they just kind of force it into there.

[01:00:43] Whereas because I'm a bit of a nerd and I like working things out really intricately,

[01:00:48] I find that's how I write my words is by kind of working out the numbers and then the themes

[01:00:57] afterwards.

[01:00:57] But then all the lyrics are just super derivative from like fantasy tropes like zombies and

[01:01:02] necromancers and dragons and stuff like that.

[01:01:05] Yeah, space aliens.

[01:01:07] Nice.

[01:01:08] So it's informed it in that way as well because I don't have an original thought in my brain

[01:01:12] to be honest.

[01:01:13] You got heckled on Friday night.

[01:01:16] Yeah.

[01:01:16] Go on.

[01:01:16] Yeah.

[01:01:17] And I've only just remembered it.

[01:01:18] He was like, this next song was about some guy getting, no, it wasn't a duck, it was under

[01:01:23] the knife, wasn't it?

[01:01:24] Yeah.

[01:01:24] And it's like getting up and lay down on the table and getting experimented on some kid in

[01:01:28] the front row.

[01:01:29] He was like, yeah, we've heard that one before, mate.

[01:01:32] This was about a thousand people opening from BitTuary.

[01:01:36] We're talking about, yeah, getting dissected and this song goes out to anyone who's been

[01:01:41] abducted by aliens and stuff like that.

[01:01:43] So it's got fun with it, haven't you?

[01:01:46] Yeah.

[01:01:47] And the metal crowd love it as well.

[01:01:49] Of course.

[01:01:50] Yeah.

[01:01:50] Yeah.

[01:01:51] We're like, as established, we're all nerds.

[01:01:53] So we're like, yay, one of us.

[01:01:56] The metal show is my favorite shows to play.

[01:01:59] We play a lot of, a lot of like hardcore shows and play a lot of like crossover shows with

[01:02:03] like really mixed builds and stuff like that.

[01:02:05] But whenever we get, and they are few and far between, and it's something we'd all like

[01:02:09] to do a lot more.

[01:02:10] But when we do get invited to like the bigger metal shows and stuff, we will just have the

[01:02:13] best time because there are people.

[01:02:17] Hmm.

[01:02:18] Yes.

[01:02:19] Absolutely.

[01:02:20] They're just sort of unabashed, enthusiastic fans of having a good time and rocking out,

[01:02:27] which is cool.

[01:02:27] With no like ego or like sort of coolness factor that they take into account, which sometimes

[01:02:34] you get from hardcore shows.

[01:02:35] Not all the time.

[01:02:36] But those are good mates in hardcore.

[01:02:37] But I think, yeah.

[01:02:38] Yeah.

[01:02:38] Metal shows are a bit more, they're a bit more sort of open about their enjoyment of things,

[01:02:44] which is great.

[01:02:45] Yeah.

[01:02:46] They're more likely to join you on a campaign.

[01:02:47] Yeah.

[01:02:49] Yeah.

[01:02:49] Yeah.

[01:02:50] They are on a campaign with us at that show, you know?

[01:02:53] They're on a quest.

[01:02:55] It's good on quests much in real life.

[01:02:57] But gigging in.

[01:02:58] And D&D is like the only time you really quest.

[01:03:00] I mean, that's why there are so many like themed metal bands out there, right?

[01:03:06] Like just thinking about it, you can get pirate metal, Viking metal, fantasy metal,

[01:03:09] power metal, just as a genre, as a whole.

[01:03:12] That's just all fantasy all the time.

[01:03:15] You know, you've got bands out there doing like, I just saw Tesseract just put out some

[01:03:20] more music recently.

[01:03:21] And like, that's a band that their entire concept is all, you know, fantasy and sci-fi

[01:03:27] kind of base.

[01:03:27] Then you've got like Sleep Token who are absolutely massive.

[01:03:29] And that's all just clearly fantasy nonsense.

[01:03:32] And like building worlds, which is, it's great.

[01:03:34] And it's a like, it's really cool mythology that they're building.

[01:03:37] And it's like, basically what I'm saying is, yeah, metal heads were all nerds.

[01:03:40] And we love it.

[01:03:41] I mean, there's literally a band called Dragonforce, right?

[01:03:44] That we all...

[01:03:44] A hundred percent.

[01:03:46] There you go.

[01:03:46] But we'll listen to that.

[01:03:48] I'm all into, yeah.

[01:03:48] We'll listen to Fruit of Fire and Flames if it comes on.

[01:03:51] A hundred percent we will.

[01:03:53] Yeah.

[01:03:54] Yeah, exactly.

[01:03:55] You see yourself as a half-elf bard then.

[01:03:57] Oh, there you go.

[01:03:58] Yeah.

[01:03:58] I'm having a look at these traits.

[01:03:59] I'll have to like fill this out.

[01:04:00] You've learned a lot about yourself that you didn't know.

[01:04:02] I am.

[01:04:03] Yeah.

[01:04:04] Yeah.

[01:04:04] I was just looking at the traits.

[01:04:05] I'm like, hmm, what appeals to me and why?

[01:04:07] As someone who's always fascinated by human behavior, like, yeah, I'm going to have a

[01:04:11] lot of fun dissecting this later.

[01:04:12] Nice.

[01:04:13] Yeah.

[01:04:14] We'll have to get you around for a game.

[01:04:16] We'll have to have a little...

[01:04:17] I would love that.

[01:04:18] A little game in the new year.

[01:04:20] Absolutely.

[01:04:21] I mean, one of the episodes I did recently was on fantasy football and there's talks

[01:04:24] of forming a league there.

[01:04:25] Nice.

[01:04:26] So something tells me I'm going to be spending a lot of time playing games in the next year

[01:04:29] and I'm not mad about it.

[01:04:31] Yeah.

[01:04:32] A lot of time imagining.

[01:04:34] Exactly.

[01:04:35] On that note, guys, I just want to say thank you so much for coming onto the podcast.

[01:04:39] And I feel like this could be a part two at some point or maybe a series because there's

[01:04:44] so much here to explore.

[01:04:45] But I just wanted to say, yeah, thank you for doing this.

[01:04:48] Thank you for walking me through this.

[01:04:50] And for everyone listening at home, they should already know because they should have already

[01:04:55] heard you at 2000 Trees, but if they haven't already, where can the good people find

[01:04:58] you and what you're up to?

[01:05:01] I was waiting for Matt.

[01:05:02] No.

[01:05:02] You're in charge of socials.

[01:05:08] We're still on Instagram.

[01:05:09] Overpower, thrash on Instagram.

[01:05:11] Overpower on Facebook.

[01:05:13] We're off X now.

[01:05:14] We're not on that bad, bad, bad website.

[01:05:17] We don't use that anymore.

[01:05:19] Slash B.

[01:05:20] Yeah.

[01:05:21] We're not really.

[01:05:22] We're not on there.

[01:05:25] TikTok, I think we've got.

[01:05:26] I don't personally have TikTok, but apparently there is one.

[01:05:28] Oh yeah.

[01:05:28] We're trying to, we're trying to get, get the TikTok going, but it's hard work.

[01:05:32] We're all, we're all in our like mid thirties now and TikTok's a struggle for us.

[01:05:35] So, um, yeah, we're having a quiet month or so now we've, we've got Christmas off, which

[01:05:40] is nice because this year has been absolutely mental, but, um, shows and stuff, I think from

[01:05:45] February on it, we're full steam ahead again next year.

[01:05:48] We've got a lot of stuff that we haven't announced yet and stuff like that.

[01:05:51] So, um, lots happening.

[01:05:53] Um, and in the meantime, me and Matt have given a incredibly insightful insight into, um, what

[01:06:02] we do in our spare time.

[01:06:04] Don't come out as, cause it don't come out as a fact if it was wrong.

[01:06:07] I don't care.

[01:06:12] Yeah.

[01:06:13] Yeah.

[01:06:13] You can direct all emails to me and I'll put them straight in the bit.

[01:06:18] But guys, thank you so much for coming on.

[01:06:20] I think what you guys do is a lot of fun.

[01:06:22] So I'll make sure to put links in the show notes.

[01:06:23] People can go and check it out.

[01:06:24] Thanks so much for having us.

[01:06:25] It's been a pleasure.

[01:06:26] Yeah.

[01:06:26] Thank you, mate.

[01:06:27] A massive thank you to Matt and Josh for coming back onto the podcast and sharing your love

[01:06:32] of this wonderful game.

[01:06:35] Really do appreciate them taking the time out, especially out of a very busy schedule.

[01:06:38] If you've kept up with anything that this band has been doing this year, you'll know

[01:06:42] that they have been nonstop with gigs, but I can see that.

[01:06:46] See why, because they're a lot of fun and I definitely recommend you go and check out

[01:06:49] their music.

[01:06:50] There will of course be links in the show notes.

[01:06:52] Make sure you have a look at that at the end of this episode.

[01:06:55] You can also give them a follow on social media and stay up to date with them and what they've

[01:06:59] got coming up in the next year.

[01:07:00] We had a little chat off mic afterwards and they've got some really cool stuff coming up.

[01:07:05] So trust me when I say you don't want to miss out.

[01:07:08] Again, links are in the show notes for all of that.

[01:07:10] Thank you so much for listening to this podcast.

[01:07:13] If you did enjoy it, then please consider doing a few simple things to help me out as

[01:07:17] an independent podcaster.

[01:07:19] First and foremost, just tell somebody.

[01:07:21] I don't mind who you tell or how you tell them, just so long as you do.

[01:07:25] Word of mouth, social media, or maybe talk about it at your next Dungeons & Dragons game.

[01:07:30] Who knows?

[01:07:30] I know there's a lot of Dungeons & Dragons podcasts to listen to, but hey, what's one more?

[01:07:34] But seriously, anything you can do to help out the podcast really does help.

[01:07:38] I am a one man band.

[01:07:39] I do everything here except the artwork.

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[01:07:45] So really anything you can do to help this reach more people goes such a long way and

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[01:08:10] And finally, if you want to contribute to the costs of running the podcast, then I would

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[01:08:27] notes.

[01:08:28] And don't forget, if you want to get yourself 25% off pet accessories, you can head over

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[01:08:36] Get yourself 25% off collars and toys and leaves and all that good stuff.

[01:08:40] So again, links from the show notes, 25% off from styleupyourpet.com.

[01:08:45] And that's about it from me.

[01:08:47] I will be back with another episode for you featuring some wonderful returning guests

[01:08:52] on a topic that has been looming large over not just this podcast, but I would say pretty

[01:08:58] much all creative endeavors.

[01:09:00] And it was really fun to sit down with a couple of guys who are experts in this field on two

[01:09:05] levels and unpack all of that.

[01:09:07] Intriguing, right?

[01:09:08] Well, I can promise you the conversation is well worth your time.

[01:09:11] So make sure that you follow, subscribe, whatever it is you need to do so you do not miss out

[01:09:15] on that episode, which will be with you on Monday the 23rd.

[01:09:20] So make sure you're here for that.

[01:09:22] Until then, thank you so much for checking out this podcast.

[01:09:25] Go and give Overpower a follow and I'll meet you right back here for another episode of

[01:09:29] the podcast on Monday the 23rd.

[01:09:32] See you then.