Random Fandom: Mix Tapes with Matt Hughes (Me and My Mixtape/ 3 is the Magic Number Podcast)

[00:00:14] Hello and welcome to Fandomentals, the podcast that explores pop culture one conversation at a time. I am your host, Harley. Every episode I interview different people from around the world to discuss a variety of topics within the world of pop culture. Thanks for joining me on this journey and I hope you enjoy the episode.

[00:00:41] Welcome to another episode of the Fandomentals Podcast. This is the 14th episode in this season of Random Fandom and for this episode I am joined by a brand new guest of the podcast. He is the co-host of Me and My Mixtape as well as the host of 3 is the Magic Number, it is Matt Hughes. Matt came to me with an absolutely brilliant idea for a topic and that is of course, mixtapes.

[00:01:05] The art of creating custom mixtapes for people seems a little bit lost these days, so we get into the reasons as to why that is, the impact that they have had throughout various stages of his life, and the role that they play in his day-to-day job. This goes all over the place, we had a ton of fun putting this episode together, and there's even an exclusive one-off mixtape or playlist for this very episode off the back of this conversation. A link for that is in the show notes for you to go and enjoy after the episode.

[00:01:35] I will say up top, apologies for not getting this out to you sooner, I was really hoping to get this out last week, but for a number of reasons it couldn't happen, but we persevered and here we are. The results are absolutely worth the wait. So that's enough from me, let's just get to it. This is Mixtapes with Matt Hughes.

[00:02:05] Hello Matt and welcome to the Fandomentals Podcast. Hi Harley, how are you sir? We're here, we are here. We're here, yes, yeah. I'm doing really well Matt, it's lovely to have you on and to speak. Yeah, I think I just realised I've known you for like two years, so it's kind of nice to be able to finally sit down and make this happen, and you've brought quite the subject with you, which I'm really looking forward to diving into.

[00:02:31] So yeah, how are things on your end my friend? How's life and podcasting and all that good stuff? Life is very good. I guess for people that don't know, I am predominantly a press officer, so I work with bands and festivals and musicians and kind of work with them about trying to get them into newspapers and on radio and all that stuff.

[00:02:53] And then I have this other life, this other life that sort of started to grow as a podcaster like yourself, where I host a couple of different podcasts and just have fun mainly talking about music, but talking about all sorts of things, which has been really quite lovely. It's quite lovely having conversations with people, I think.

[00:03:17] Yeah, no, I massively enjoy it. It's brilliant. And we're obviously off the back of one of your shows, which is the idea that you're here for, which is mixtapes. So yourself and Mark, a friend of the show, guest of multiple episodes, do a brilliant little show about making your own mixtapes. And I've got to say, it's been really fun to listen to and just hearing you guys come up with all these different suggestions. So that's what we're going to dive into. And I guess to kick us off, I'm genuinely curious, Matt, what was your introduction to mixtapes?

[00:03:46] When did that sort of start for you? So I think it's quite handy for people listening to know quite how old I am. I am older than the mountains. I'm Captain Old. So my introduction to mixtapes was a very long time ago. And I guess the first sort of time I had an interest in it was I used to have a little recorder, a little cassette recorder.

[00:04:15] And you could just record things off the radio or you could make your own radio shows, had a little microphone on it. And so I used to, a long time ago, make my own kind of radio shows where I would say, you know, oh, you know, I really love the new Dire Straits album and here's Money for Nothing. And I'd have it recorded or whatever. And I found it slightly less interesting listening back to it. I'd find it less interesting listening to myself.

[00:04:44] So then I essentially just started to record songs off the radio that I loved. So I'd listen to the top 40 or whatever when I was six, seven years, eight years old, whatever. And I would kind of put together mixtapes of songs that I loved. And they would be my cassettes that I would listen to on my Walkman. And eventually, you know, you start buying music when you get to like 11, 12, 13.

[00:05:09] And I think the first thing I ever did when I would buy records would be to pick songs that I loved and put them on cassettes. Kind of basically a best of of my record collection. Right. And that would that was sort of the beginning of it. And then I'd play them in my, you know, the car when my mom and dad were driving me to football practice or to mates houses or whatever. But but yeah, that was that was basically it. I would cherry pick my own record collection.

[00:05:39] Amazing. What did your parents make of your mixtapes? Well, at that point, it was before, you know, music tastes really developed. So I guess as I was sort of reflecting a lot of their own musical tastes, which is my mom is very into Motown and kind of pop and then kind of like 60s stuff. And then my dad is more sort of jazz. The Beatles kind of a bunch of kind of classic bands like Fleetwood Mac and Pink Floyd and stuff.

[00:06:08] So a lot of them sort of reflected their tastes. And then obviously when you're getting to like 10 and 11 and 12, you're listening to kind of the pop music of the time that you like. And then when you're making mixtapes, what I love about what I always love about making mixes and making playlists is giving it to somebody else and then them reciprocating that and giving something back to you. And you always discover new stuff. And this is a time before Internet, before Spotify, before Street, way before any way before any of that stuff.

[00:06:37] So, you know, someone would give me a tape and I remember someone gave me a cassette with Metallica on it when I was 11 or 12 with Master of Puppets. Nice. Or Sanitarium. I can't remember which one, but it was one of those. And I remember that being like on a light bulb moment. And that's that sort of all changed.

[00:07:02] And then my mixtapes became more about actually discovering music, you know, heavy music, guitar music. And that's when my cassettes were less welcome in the car, let's say. Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I could imagine. But that's good fun. I like that.

[00:07:25] I mean, that's that to me is the beauty of discovering music, especially at that age, because I was kind of the same at that sort of point of discovering. I actually don't know if I've ever told the story before, but I remember asking my dad at age 11, have you ever heard of a band called Metallica? And we were just about to go out somewhere. He just laughed. I went one minute, got out the car, went back into the house, came back in and just put Black Album on. And that was like Hardy's tiny little brain was just blown in that moment. You know? Nice.

[00:07:54] Where had you heard Metallica from? Where had that question come from? Yeah. So it was actually like an old school friend. I'd just seen him like on a walk back home. I just popped around just to hang around his house. And I noticed all these posters of different bands. Like he'd just gotten into guitar music and I was sort of vaguely interested in it. And I just saw this massive poster from Metallica. And I was like, oh, who's that? And I went, oh, yeah, you should ask your dad about that. He's probably got some stuff lying around. And they were correct. And there were quite a few other things.

[00:08:23] But that was like the Gateway album. And I just remember getting that and being like, what is this? And then just going back. And as you say, like you then just pick up other albums and just sort of cherry picking stuff that you like. And that was my dive into the world of heavy metal for sure. Yeah. I think as soon as. Yeah. I think there's a definite point where your music discovery button is pushed and you become ravenous to consume and to find out as much new music.

[00:08:52] And I think when you get older, I mean, I'm lucky that I work in music. So I listen to a lot of music all the time constantly. But most of my friends, my peers that maybe don't work in music, they essentially that musical discovery interest isn't really there anymore. A lot of people tend to just listen to the same records. They don't have that drive about finding new bands or finding new things. You know what I mean? They feel like they've kind of got enough music. Absolutely. Whereas I think I'm very much the opposite.

[00:09:20] Like before I worked in music, my different circles of friends, you know, through school and college and whatever, you know, afterwards, it was always about being very, very sort of obsessed with learning more. You know, you would buy a record and you would, you know, maybe love the label that the whatever band that was released on and you would read the liner notes about the other bands that they would thank or mention. And that would sort of start you off on that.

[00:09:48] And you'd have a whole circle of friends that would do the same thing in this kind of constant pooling of discovery. Right. Kind of birth this, you know, very, very strong kind of growth in interest in finding new, constantly finding new things. And it's not always about new artists. It's, you know, oftentimes, you know, someone will talk about something.

[00:10:11] I mean, I very recently, last year, maybe I'm a very big Beatles fan, but I've never really done much kind of listening of any of the solo albums, especially not Paul McCartney. And I, a friend of mine gave me a mixtape, actually, well, a playlist. And it had, it had a McCartney song from the album Ram on it. And, and I loved it. I totally loved it.

[00:10:37] And I just spent a long time going back through Paul McCartney's kind of back catalogue. And I guess this is the advantage now we have streaming services that you don't have to go and buy. You don't have to get on a train or a bus and travel into the nearest large town and go to a record store and buy something and then take it all the way home and listen to it. You know, you can literally listen to it on your phone or whatever device you have. That's something, it's a big change. It is. It's huge. It's something that's come up a lot in this podcast.

[00:11:06] It's like, yeah, the sort of way we consume media being a kind of two edged sword, right? In the sense of like, it's, you've got the world at your feet. You can have pretty much anything you want. But as you say, like, how much do you actually take advantage of that? Or do you just kind of go back to the well of familiar things? Or do you sort of feel like, oh, it's option paralysis. There's too much. Whereas I guess, yeah, maybe that's the beauty now. Sort of mixtapes playlists, right? Kind of being the modern version of that, of someone just going, well, look, I'm going to chuck all this together for you. Just have a listen.

[00:11:36] And you never know what you might discover off the back of that. Like, I know working in festivals, as you do, like when I was preparing for 2000 Trees and stuff last year. I made a point to go and find playlists of all the bands so I could just get a flavor of what was on there, what's available. And I thought it was great. Like, I loved listening to it. And I thought, oh, I'm discovering all these new artists now off the back of this. And then I'm, you know, in that case, got to go and chat to a few of them. And you get more recommendations.

[00:12:03] But as you say, like, it does take you being able to jump outside of your comfort zone a little bit sometimes, right? I mean, what did you make of that Paul McCartney one off the back of that? Did you sort of go off then and do a little deep dive of his other stuff? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that tends to happen all the time. You know, I try and listen to something new. I try and listen to something new every single day. Nice. You know, and you have a bunch of artists. I have a bunch of artists.

[00:12:30] Everyone has those kind of artists that maybe everyone else knows or talks about or are critically acclaimed. And you've never kind of done much digging. So Nick Cave is that for me. So I like Nick Cave, but I've never really invested much time. And I'm really trying with artists like that in my brain to just sort of sometimes there's like a mental block, I think, with music, with artists. And you just, you kind of want to sit down and listen.

[00:12:58] But at the same time, what's amazing about music is that it creates these endorphins, these feelings in your brain, in your body. And you do often get that when you listen to music that you know. Yeah. It reminds you of certain things that, you know, maybe it's a kind of a record or an artist that is very mood based. And you're kind of putting on that music specifically because you're in a certain type of mood. And you're driving in your car. You're driving fast. You want to listen to something fast. You're feeling a bit sad.

[00:13:27] You've had some bad news. And maybe you want to wallow a bit. But, yeah, I do try and listen to new stuff all the time. I mean, it's interesting that now on Spotify, and we talk about it on the Me and My Mixtape, the podcast I have with Mark. There's like an AI function now where you literally could just type in and they will create a playlist for you, your own mixtape. Yep.

[00:13:54] You know, and it's early doors for that technology. So most of the time it is pretty rubbish, you know. And they break a lot of unwritten rules about mixtapes, you know, don't have the same artist twice. And, you know, you've got to think about track selection, mood and tone, transitions, pacing, a personal touch, a strong opener, a strong close. There's all of that, you know, there's unwritten rules of making a mixtape, making a playlist. You know, they're not kind of there yet.

[00:14:24] But it is interesting that they're seeing that one of the main functions that people go onto streaming platforms is this notion of a mixtape, is musical discovery. You know, like, yeah. It's why they spend so much money and time investing in creating all of these very popular playlists, you know, on Apple and Spotify. Yeah, I mean, I sometimes listen.

[00:14:49] I think sometimes you can always find something new. I often find something new if I listen to Spotify weekly discovery. Yeah. But I do tend to find that personal recommendations from trusted kind of people bear more weight with me in terms of if I think I'm going to, you know, actually sort of find something that I truly like, you know. Yeah. Oh, totally. Yeah.

[00:15:17] And especially if that person is to say as a friend of yours or knows you pretty well, like, yeah, you're going to take that with a lot more, I think, faith and trust rather than just some random generated algorithm. Yeah, I think trust. Yeah. Trust is a big one. I guess my day to day job as a PR is essentially getting people to listen to music based on them trusting my taste, the bands I work with.

[00:15:43] So there has to be there has to be that sort of trust. And a different side of my job for festivals is with James Scarlett, who runs 2000 Trees and Arc Tangent. I help curate the stages. So he often will kind of ask what I think about certain artists or whether I think certain artists are big enough to do something or whether if I have suggestions of other artists and bands that maybe would fit around.

[00:16:14] Some of the stages. It's essentially like basically making mixtapes and playlists, but just for a job. I mean, I love it. I absolutely love it. Sounds like the dream. Yeah. Yeah. On that note, like when you when you're asked to do something like that, for instance, what is kind of your thought process then? Well, I mean, I so I'm constantly making playlists. I constantly make playlists. I made one. I made one this morning.

[00:16:44] I have my children have playlists on my Spotify account. Yeah. My daughter has a jams one and another one has a bangers one. And I made a playlist today just about songs that surprise you. You know, so the idea behind the playlist is maybe artists that you're not that into, but they release something that's that's that's pretty incredible.

[00:17:12] But maybe you're not into that sort of much of the back catalog. Yeah. But anyway, so yeah, how I approach these things. I. Like I said, I make lots of playlists, but I also just write down lots and lots of lists, lots and lots of lists of bands, of artists, of songs. I take note if someone is doing well, if there's been a big reaction media wise to something. So I'm always adding to documents.

[00:17:37] So when we have those conversations between myself and James, I'm kind of prepared. You know, I mean, at the beginning of each year, I will write a create a document which essentially lays out. The entire festival, there's just ideas. Obviously, James is the booker. James is the person that does all of that work.

[00:17:59] My my input is merely suggestive, but I find it works for my brain to write down all of the stages from the top to the bottom on each stage and kind of think of artists and bands that would fit in the headline, the sub headline or co headline. Who would be great for opening the stage? You know what kind of classic bands make sense in this in the context of these festivals? Who are the new artists that should be, you know, being brought through?

[00:18:28] Who from the earlier, you know, maybe the previous year deserves to step up and go to a larger stage? All of that sort of stuff. Right. OK. So, yeah, that's that's sort of how I I kind of approach it. Yeah, there's a lot of different factors to consider there. I mean, someone who listens to the two promoters, one pod. I'm always fascinated hearing from their perspective of as organizers. And, yeah, they make it no secret that obviously they have a lot of people that they listen to and yourself included in that.

[00:18:58] And, yeah, I do often think like, man, how how on earth would I approach it? Someone said to me, yeah, you've got to put together a festival lineup. And I like that approach, though. I like that idea of, yeah, trying to make a bit of a spread. Who's going to open this stage? Who's going to close it out? So what about perhaps a mix in the middle? Because it changes. Because it'll change during the year. Of course.

[00:19:19] You'll start by putting, you know, say, for example, like if it was a few it was a few years ago, I suggested Spirit Box. Right. It was before they come over to play the Air Islington Show a few years ago. And I suggested they'd be an amazing band to, you know, maybe like open the main stage or whatever. And within the course of that year, they got massive.

[00:19:49] Like, yeah. I mean, they're massive now. But they got very, very big. And I just literally switched it. And they were like, well, they could just headline. Like, they could literally just be a headlining band. Yeah. So, yeah, that's a really interesting aspect of it when you're kind of looking at what bands are doing over the course of the year. And I think Vokovie is a really interesting act this year because they've obviously played the festival a few times.

[00:20:18] But it feels like on this record or this trajectory of the last couple of records that they've really pushed themselves into this new kind of more. I don't know, more consistent sphere. You know, they're touring a lot more. Yeah. You know, they're releasing kind of more consistently. And obviously, they've played Trees a few times and they're beloved by the audience.

[00:20:36] But having them third from top on the main stage below, you know, Let Live and Alexis on Fire is, I mean, that's a really big statement and fair play to James. I mean, he has lots of people like us throwing suggestions his way. But he is the one that has to stick his neck out and go yes or no or that's, you know, thanks for that suggestion.

[00:21:04] But, you know, there's another band that is over here. And at the same time, he has all these agents, you know, as he talks about this podcast, all these other agents sort of saying to him all sorts of things as agents do that he has to take into consideration. But it's a lot of fun. Putting together those things feels very much like making a mixtape. And that's why I love it. I totally, I totally love it.

[00:21:28] And I always make my own playlist on Spotify for artists that I suggest to James. So I've got the last few years, just my own private ones. I just have playlists of like 80 bands that I suggested to James in 2022 or, you know, whatever. So, and it's always interesting which ones he then goes for, which ones, you know, he couldn't get or ignores or whatever. But yeah. Fascinating. Yeah.

[00:21:57] And I would think as well with something like that, also depending on the nature of the festival, right? Like, you've got to think about tone as well. Absolutely. Tone and audience. Trees and ATG are like a perfect example of, you know, literally the same people involved. Same kind of size festival, more or less, but completely different approaches, right? So I imagine that also makes it quite fun then as you're going through looking for bands going, oh, would they be a good fit for this one or this one? Or maybe both? Are they one that kind of straddle that?

[00:22:28] Yeah. Both worlds? I don't know. You know, and just exploring those possibilities. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's always interesting. The ones, because James is involved in both, books both, that kind of working out of who could work for both, you know? And there's a bunch of bands that have done both. There's loads of bands that have done both, you know? But it is, yeah, it must be an interesting approach.

[00:22:56] I guess ATG musically is really where James sits. It's like, obviously he likes 2000 Trees, he loves 2000 Trees and he likes a lot of those artists. But I think the music of ATG is more in line with kind of how, what he listens to kind of on a daily basis. And he has Miles from Bristol who very much kind of helps him kind of put together that sort of festival. With every now and again, I'll be like, hey, what about Baroness?

[00:23:26] Or something very obvious. Yeah, yeah. Have you heard of Meshuggah? There's this band, Mogwai. It might be quite good. But yeah. Yeah. But I wanted to, so on this podcast, I also wanted to create a mixtape as we went along. Absolutely. And I've got a couple on the row. So I don't have any, I've not made any preparation for this, but I thought we could do a mixtape between the two of us and add a song every couple of minutes and then you can post it later.

[00:23:56] But the subject of the mixtape is going to be the song that you think about that you want to listen to right now. Okay. So we're picking this exact moment. Yeah. Right now. Oh, okay. Well, I literally just said Meshuggah. So I'm thinking Bleed. Like that's the first one that's in my head right now. Thinking about ATG, thinking about, yeah, just that absolute, yeah, let's pull something

[00:24:25] out of left field. Nice. Yeah. And I. That's a strong opener as well. That's a strong opening track for a mixtape. I went to a load of shows last year and the two that I keep thinking about. And bear in mind, this is the same year that I saw Green Day on their anniversary tour and Foo Fighters in the Wembley. Is it London Olympic Park? Anyway, amazing shows. But the two I keep thinking about is Tool and Meshuggah. Those are the two that just live in my head of like, those were phenomenal.

[00:24:54] Like I just stood there for like an hour and a half just with my jaw open the whole time. Like, what is this? So yeah, that's fresh on my brain. What about you, man? Where have you gone? So I'm going to just pull something out of my brain. I'm going to say On A Plane by Nirvana. I think. Okay. I think Nirvana are one of the greatest bands of all time, despite their meager release kind

[00:25:22] of history, obviously, because of, you know, death. Yeah. Yeah. It's from Nevermind. I love that record. I remember queuing up to buy it at H&B Guilford. And it's a record that I've listened to, I would say, every week, pretty much since it came out in 91. Yeah. It's just, you can't go wrong. That's the thing. Nirvana, genuinely, I think. Yeah.

[00:25:50] There's a reason why they are one of the most legendary bands of all time. Just funny enough, did an episode on Pearl Jam not that long ago. We were talking about the big four of Seattle. And it's just, yeah, incredible bands. You could easily spend every week listening to their albums, for sure. And funny enough, you mentioned it. I learned in that conversation that I think Smells Like Teen Spirit came out in, like, the same summer as, like, the Black Album by Metallica, Soundgarden, Bad Motorfinger, and

[00:26:20] I'm pretty sure it was, I think, Alice in Chains, Dirt, and what was the other one? It was Pearl Jam's 10. Obviously. There was another one as well in the mix that was just, like, sorry, what? It was just these iconic albums all in the summer of 91. So I imagine that was a good time for you, Matt, queuing up outside HMV, just buying all

[00:26:48] of these up and just having your little mind blown. I mean, it's like, yeah, I'm very conscious of, like, swimming too deep into the pool of nostalgia. Right. Yeah. But I think, unquestionably, the 90s was a pretty fertile place because of a lot of different factors and reasons. You know, you had major labels investing heavily in interesting music because people still actually bought music.

[00:27:16] So, you know, a lot of artists that maybe these days would be nowhere near that major label system of actually being pushed and promoted doesn't really exist anymore. So, I mean, I think if you looked at any year from 1990 onwards, I mean, we did a podcast about albums from 95 and, but you could take any year. You could literally take any year. And I mean, 94 is an insane year as well. Just, yeah, it's, it's, it was a very, very nice time.

[00:27:46] But the funny, I mean, obviously this is before the internet and this is before streaming services. So if you wanted to listen to an album, you had to go buy that album or you would have a friend make your mixtape and say, you know, I just got the new Nine Inch Nails record and, you know, you should list, check out. I put it, I made a mixtape with March of the Piggies on. And that's how, that's, that's music discovery.

[00:28:12] I mean, that was the old way of discovering music, you know, buy something or have a friend make you a mixtape. But yeah, exactly. And that was, again, that's the joy of it. It's just plugging something in and having no idea what's about to come out. And yeah, I'm with you on that as well, Matt, to be fair. Yeah, I get it. I think the nostalgia thing. Yeah, again, it can be a positive or a negative, but good grief. The nineties were incredible for music, for so many bands, you know, for so many artists.

[00:28:39] And I often wonder as well, if it, if it was down to the fact that the industry was so different to what it is now. Like, again, had this conversation, we talked to Pearl Jam of like, how many bands get that opportunity, you know, to put out an album like that and for it to be just so well recognized and for it to blow up in the way that it blows up. And, you know, because it's everywhere, because people have to go out, buy it. And like you say, they get recommended it and then it just creates this sort of ripple effect.

[00:29:08] Whereas nowadays it's kind of like, like you said, Spirit Box is a good example of like a modern band that's kind of managed to break through and is doing really well. But that took them a long time to get there. You know, it took them like 10 years of being a band just to get to the point of being able to put an album out. And then I'm sure even they say it themselves, like they got quite lucky with some of the songs being picked up for certain things and just being put out there. So people could actually physically hear it and then go, oh, this is really cool. Let's check out this. Yeah.

[00:29:37] Whereas they could have easily just got lost in the shuffle. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's an interesting one of the 90s. I mean, I think there's I have. So I have another podcast called Three is the Magic Number that I do with a guy called Raffrey Dedman. And one of the early the first season, one of our early episodes, we talked to the Radio One DJ, Daniel P. Carter.

[00:30:05] And his topic is was 90s albums that nobody cares about unless you're in a band. And some of these bands and albums that he was talking about, part of the conversation was. The fact that some of these. Albums that were released probably didn't need to be on a major label, but they were.

[00:30:29] And you have this kind of boom or bust sort of aspect to two label releasing sort of schedules. If something doesn't work, they either keep trying or they just drop the artist. And these days, I think, you know, you've got such a short window of success, especially on a major label. Like if you don't make it that first time, like you are you are kind of totally dropped.

[00:30:53] And I think in the 90s, just because artists could sell records, you know, you had artists like Screaming Trees staying on a major label for quite a while just because the pressure to release as many records wasn't quite there because at least they were selling some records. Yes. But I also just think that maybe labels took more of a punt, more of a risk on certain

[00:31:21] artists because they knew they would sell records because there was no streaming available. So they would sign a band like Rage Against the Machine that are so seemingly anti. Any kind of major label sort of system, you know, incredibly political, you know, but the deal they signed with Sony with Columbia was one where they were essentially able to do whatever they wanted. They weren't limited. They weren't curtailed.

[00:31:48] They had no censorship in terms of their imagery, their lyrics, how they presented themselves, you know, and they became quite a big band, quite a big band. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. I'm pretty sure that was another one in the 91 category. But yeah, it's fascinating. As you said, like taking that risk. And yeah, I kind of wonder if there would be more of that now you would think, given the fact that you can do so many things, you know, it doesn't cost as much basically to make a record label.

[00:32:18] Like you could realistically do stuff from your own computer if you've got the right software and you know what you're doing. Well, people, I mean, people, people do. And I think that's. Yeah. A lot of bands do now. I think a large part of, of where we're at now is that anybody, anybody could make a podcast, anybody can and release it on a major platform. Anyone can make a piece of music and release it globally, you know, using streaming platforms. And you don't need.

[00:32:46] I mean, when I was younger, I was in bands and stuff and, and I did producing courses and learned how to use old analog kind of recording desks. And, you know, that, that was a process, you know, you have to learn very fine details of wiring and, and thousands of buttons. And now it's, it's, you literally just have to download a preset. You just have to download a piece of software, run it on your Mac and you can have like a

[00:33:14] symphony orchestra at your fingertips on a crappy little MIDI keyboard. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's amazing. And I think that's so freeing and liberating, but at the same time, I think it creates such a massive, almost overwhelming volume of music being released that it's, it's almost impossible for, for labels to kind of latch onto, especially if you're going to be putting a lot of money behind something.

[00:33:40] So I think a large part of major labels signings these days are to do with, has it worked already? Does this person have a large following on social media? Does this person, have they, have they created a scene for themselves? You know, is this something that is almost guaranteed? And I'm not entirely sure that that was really there in the past. You know, you'd have an A&R going to see the Jesus Lizard play with Nirvana and they'd be like, well, these Jesus Lizard band are amazing. Let's sign them to a major label.

[00:34:07] Even though they're the kind of band that would probably should really realistically be nowhere near a major label. Right. But let's have your second track. Let's have your second track for the mixtape. Ooh. Something you want to listen to right now. Well, again, since we've been talking about breakthroughs, I have had bits of Hurt You by Spirit Box bouncing around in my brain because I love that riff and just, oh, it's so much fun. I love a bouncy drop tune riff. Yes. Yeah. Classic.

[00:34:35] It's a band I'm desperate to see, by the way. Like, yeah, I was gutted. I couldn't make the London show. I saw them last week in London. I was so tempted to go for that. But yeah, because anyway, that's a whole other thing. But yeah, I keep an eye on them. Just like, come on, come around at some point. You're bound to do a tour. I'm bound to catch you. At some point. Hopefully. Yeah. But yeah, go on then. What's yours, Matt? I'm going to go with a newish song, a newish band.

[00:35:04] I'm going to go with Un People. Oh, yes. Who are the new band formed from the remnants of Presto Mico, who I always loved. Fantastic. Interesting band. And I'm going to go with a previous single, The Garden, which is a really, really big, bouncy pop rock song. And yeah, I think they're brilliant. A totally, totally brilliant band. They're awesome. Yeah.

[00:35:30] I had the privilege of talking with them at 2000 Trees last year and yeah, really liked them, checked out their music, thought it was great. And yeah, now I see them popping up on festivals all over the place this summer. So yeah, great show. Love that. Yeah. It's just a fun song as well. I think such a massive part of. So when I make mixtapes, when I make mixtapes or when I come up with subjects for me and Mark to talk about on the mixtape podcast, it's often what do I want to listen to?

[00:35:59] What would I like as a mixtape? And obviously on the podcast, we limit our choices to 10. So we have five choices each, which we will do with this mixtape. And I think that's 10 is a really nice number. It allows you to have that big opening track. It allows you to have a real strong idea about pacing throughout a playlist, really strong closer.

[00:36:22] And it's not something that is obviously I have playlists and mixtape playlists or whatever that are hours and hours and hours long that you just stick on shuffle. But it's nice making these kind of 10 track because you really have to think about things. You really have to think about something that follows something. What does this? You know, sometimes we don't always get it right because, you know, aren't you something insane? Mark will be like, this doesn't really work. But it's like, well, it's kind of what I want to listen to. Absolutely.

[00:36:51] You know, and I think a large part of my music discovery now, I think when I'm older, is driven by what I want to listen to now. You know, and I think that's really important for me as anyway. Yeah. Yeah. And I think as well, it's fun to have a bit of a mix, you know, unless you're kind of doing something sort of genre specific. And even then you could broaden it out a little bit.

[00:37:15] Like, that's something I like listening to yours and Mark's discussions about, like, why you choose what you choose. And it's obviously you guys are early days yet. But like, I've enjoyed that every episode being like a completely mixed bag. And I'll shout out the funeral episode you did, which was hell of a topic to go with. But I love the personal choices. And I loved that there was such a wide variety. But every that was a great example of like everyone choice had a reason.

[00:37:42] Like it was specific and unique to you guys. And you had a little story for it. Yeah. And like you look at that playlist just without any context. But what is this? Like, it's a complete mixed bag. But when you listen, it's like, oh, I get it. OK. And it takes you on a journey then. So I guess that's kind of the point, right? Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think a lot of the podcast is me and Mark talking about, well, trying not to talk about Radiohead.

[00:38:05] And then talking about, talking about reasons as to why we're putting these, you know, these songs, these artists on the playlist. I've really liked, we did a film one. We did 80s films. And the next season, we'll do another decade, probably, well, give it away. We'll probably do the 90s, I think, the next one. And I really love that. I really love mixtapes that have more about them.

[00:38:35] They actually have kind of a story to tell about the songs that are on there in the first place. And that's kind of one of the driving forces, one of the main things behind the ideas of some of these subjects that me and Mark come up with. You know, what? Because if we just write, if we just make a playlist of like, these are songs that we love. Yeah. Or these are songs that we're listening to. It's going to be a very short podcast. It's like, this song is great. I really like it. What about you? Here's another song. I really like it.

[00:39:03] So in the context of trying to have a conversation about music, but not have it be so sort of po-faced and serious, making a mixtape with a subject that you are connected with. Be that songs you want to play at your funeral or songs from, you know, we today is the, well, I don't know if you want to give the date away, but today is the 21st of February. So we've just launched our new podcast today and it's songs from our college years. Nice.

[00:39:31] And obviously we're different ages. So our college year experiences and the releases are kind of different. And you can definitely tell because mine are all very old in the nineties and Mark's are mainly the noughties. But I like that, you know, I want the mixtapes, the podcasts to be, I'd love it to be music discovery for people, but I really want it to be, I want it to be about the stories behind the music, you know, behind the choices. Yes.

[00:40:01] It's yeah, totally, totally. And that's it. And then makes it a bit more personal. And again, that's kind of the joy of putting together little mixtapes sometimes, right? Or like just this idea of exploring those themes, I think is a really cool idea. It's a great idea for a podcast and it's really fun to listen to. Okay. I'm not just saying that because you're sat here and, you know, Mark's been nice enough to be on the show a few times. Like I genuinely think it's a really fun listen. And thank you. Yeah. As someone else who also loves music, every time I'm like, oh yeah, I haven't listened to that song for a while. I don't think I've heard that version before. I'll go check that out.

[00:40:30] And again, that's kind of the point, isn't it? That's what you're supposed to be doing is, yeah, checking things out. And I imagine for a lot of people, if they listen to it, they probably come up with their own. Right. Like I was thinking about it afterwards, that funeral one, as an example. I was like, yeah, what would I have at my funeral? I don't know, actually. And it kind of gets you, sends you off on a little rabbit hole or. Yeah. Yeah. And I think limiting it to 10. Oh, it's tricky.

[00:40:55] Do you mean, I think because I think it's about really thinking about the reasons why you're having these songs. What, why, why, why are you putting these songs? You know, because you could do. I mean, I did make a playlist for a future episode. Um, that is, it's just called songs that bang. And I mean, at the moment in that, in that playlist on Spotify, it's, um, I would say there's like 17 hours worth of music.

[00:41:25] So obviously, obviously, uh, we, we won't do that, but I think, yeah, I think limiting, limiting it to 10 makes you really think about the reasons as to why you're putting this on. And I think then the conversation kind of comes from those kinds of reasons. Um, but yes, what, let's go with your next choice. Let's go with your, your track three. Hmm. Okay. So. I kind of got two schools of thought going here.

[00:41:54] So you mentioned going through film tracks a minute ago. Yeah. Like, and I, and that got me thinking like, yeah, cause this is something right. Like you don't really get it anymore. Right. These sort of songs, original songs for movies. It's just, it's a subject that's come up a number of times on this podcast and various episodes. It's like, yeah, I kind of missed the tie in songs, the tie in video games, all the stuff you used to get. And whenever I start talking about it or thinking about it, there's one song that springs to mind.

[00:42:23] And that is hero by Chad Kruger. Do you know what? I knew as soon as you said, there's one song. I was like, it's going to be hero. It's going to be, it's going to be Chad Kruger and that other bloke. Is that, uh, yeah. And that other bloke to give him his full credit. Absolutely. Um, is that just because of my age or what, what sort of gave that away? Uh, or is it just the correct answer, Matt? I think it's just the correct answer. I think that that is. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's funny.

[00:42:51] We talk about this in the eighties one and we'll talk about it in the nineties one as well. And it's, it's, you know, Mark really goes into some detail about it. And I totally agree that, that notion that sometimes you'd buy soundtracks. We talk about it, about the single soundtrack, this movie from the nineties about kind of Seattle and the grunge scene. And that had a whole host of songs that were made just for that, that album. Yes. Like these huge artists in the scene, you know?

[00:43:19] And, um, you just, yeah, you don't really kind of get that anymore. Um, so I will follow your lead and I'm going to do, I'm going to do a song from, from a movie as well. And I'm going to go with take a look around by Limp Bizkit. Yes. Cause it's an equal as equally sort of silly as, as hero. Yeah. Just, just a sort of different vibe. Um, yeah. Oh, funny. You mentioned that.

[00:43:46] Um, I'll shout out, uh, Scott from spy hearts, which is brilliant podcast. And we spoke about that song and a bunch of other stuff. And we talked about spy movies cause he's also a metal head. And then like, um, it basically a year ago, they did an interview with the guy who was a producer on MI2 and put together that soundtrack. Wow. I highly recommend that episode. It's a fascinating, uh, listen to what a producer does to put together those kinds of soundtracks as, as we say, don't exist anymore.

[00:44:15] And then there's a brilliant story in there about him kind of facilitating a meeting between Fred Durst and Tom Cruise and them discussing lyrics on that song. It's a wild, wild conversation. Highly recommend. I like the idea. I like the notion that Tom Cruise had a, had a ghostwriting credit for take a look around. Apparently he had very strong opinions about whether there should be lyrics on it or not. And then initially he was like, I don't want anything.

[00:44:43] I just want it to be an instrumental, which it does work as an instrumental. Cause you know, you've got Wes Borland just ripping it up. But Fred Durst had very strong opinions on his lyrics. And apparently they had a very long meeting discussing the artistic sort of reasons why or why not. And yeah, again, I just wanted to be in that room when I heard that. I was like, I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation. Just for those two at that moment in time to just sit there and be like, this is fascinating. Yeah.

[00:45:11] And I wonder if the same conversation happened between the producer, Tom Cruise and Metallica. Yes. I think so. They're equally, equally wonderful song from the soundtrack. Yeah. Limbiscuit are a funny one. Limbiscuit are clearly, they're clearly like a really like rubbish band. Like, but they are, they are, they are the best rubbish band in history. I think. Yeah.

[00:45:37] I think it's, they're the music unquestionably for me anyway, gets me and lots of people I'm sure, gets me very excited. And it taps into something in my brain that I doesn't, I don't realize is there. Yeah. Like I'm slightly older than Nu Metal. Like I never really got into Nu Metal. So I totally appreciated Korn. I totally appreciated a lot of that sort of stuff, but it just felt, it just felt a lot

[00:46:04] of really bad bands that basically ripped Faith No More off and decided to like be a bit more rappy or a bit more metally. Very true. And Limbiscuit are an interesting one because, yeah, I mean, they're, I'm not entirely sure they're a great band or a good band, but they tap into this part of someone's brain and it just, I mean, the lyrics for Take a Look Around are so appalling, but for some reason, you

[00:46:30] know, the whole, it's all the world has even seen lately. It's just like, just go off on that riff from West Portland. Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. It's so true. Like, oh yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. Like after doing that episode with Scott, I went away and just like relearned, I say relearned, actually I'd never learned the riff before, but it was super easy, but it was just super fun as well. I was like, God damn, this is catchy.

[00:46:58] And like, and like you say, it's, yeah, there's a weird one than Biscuit. I totally agree. Like a band I don't, I don't really care for. And I'm aware we're having this conversation. I feel like I can hear Sean Smith somewhere screaming into the clouds, but it is like one of those bands that means so much to so many people. And I genuinely think there's a reason for it. And I agree with you. I think it is, there's something weirdly primal about it. And that's absolutely, I think that's what new metal is that there was just something

[00:47:24] about it, like capturing that groove of hip hop, which they would try to bring in and then just big angry guitars. And like, yeah, you hear those songs and you just can't help but want to jump up and just run around and mosh and just have fun. Even though, like you said, artistically, you could try to pick it apart. It's like, no, it's not for that. It's just for fun. Yeah. I think that's, that's really important. I think, and you know, I'm obviously when I said they're, they're a bad band, I don't really mean it. They're obviously a very good band.

[00:47:51] And, and you know, I don't think that you get to be that big and have huge success by accident. It takes a lot of, a lot of hard work, but I do think in terms of new metal, I think they, like you said, I think they took a lot of metal and simplified it to a very, very nth degree. So you, you have a phrase or a riff or a bounce, or even they taken from grunge, that quiet, loud, quiet, loud, which limbists could do all the time, you know, from the, from the Pixies and Nirvana.

[00:48:22] Yeah. Not that I'm, you know, obviously I'm not saying heavy metal in the eighties or whatever was like this high end genre, but you know, it was, it was constantly trying to do new things, you know, either be the loudest and the heaviest or in terms of riffs and guitar playing and structure and even kind of lyrics, you know, there was really an exciting, interesting time. And then new metal comes along and it is exciting and interesting, but it very

[00:48:51] much boils things down to a very sort of smaller degree, you know, in terms of what they're singing about and what their sound, even the terms of like who produces their records, you know, it's a, it's a much narrower sort of like hole that they're kind of going through. Yeah. But I think that kind of happens, right. With a lot of specific movements in music. Like you could look at the pop punk movement around the same time, right. Or sort of emo music as well at the same time, all of them kind of, like you say, having that similar

[00:49:21] sound, similar producers often kind of sometimes band members swapping out different, you know, the same jumping in and out of the same bands. Uh, yeah, there's a reason for it. Those things will kind of end up sounding similar, but yeah, personally, I'm always like, yeah, but it's fun. You know, there's nothing wrong with that. Totally. It's now landed us in this weird space, right. Where thanks to the nostalgia cycle. And as we mentioned earlier, the prevalence of being able to access music and stuff to create music

[00:49:49] with these people grow up or influenced by all these different movements. And then you get bands that just kind of sit somewhere weirdly in the middle. Like I'm thinking of a band right now that, um, getting bigger and bigger. My wife's a big fan and we saw them last year, Dead Pony. Great band. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Great bands. And they, uh, when we saw them, it was really funny. They ended on, um, a Limp Bizkit cover, you know, and they were like, just, they're unabashedly like, yeah,

[00:50:18] we love this band. And, and it's funny. You listen to a band like Dead Pony, like really new metals in here, but then you think, yeah, it kind of makes sense. But they also are big fans of pop punk and they're big fans of, you know, like sort of, yeah, I guess the other bands that we've mentioned earlier, perhaps the grunge sounds like you can hear all these different things blending into a band like that as an example. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I think a lot of that is to do with interest and influence. You know,

[00:50:44] I hear lots of musicians talk about how influential Blink-182 was for them. And right. Right. You know, I'm a man of a certain age, so I don't understand that influence, but influence is influence. Influence, you know, can come from, from whatever, you know, we don't all musicians don't all need to be influenced by the Beatles or Bob Dylan or Mozart. I mean, it can be from anybody and anything. And I think that's really cool. I think that's really

[00:51:10] exciting. Um, and I think that's, yeah, I, I, I really liked Dead Pony. I really, I think they're exciting, exciting young band. Yeah. Um, let's go with, let's go with another track. This is your fourth. So you're, this is your penultimate. So this is your penultimate track. So I can go one of two ways here. This is songs you want to listen to right now. Yeah. You won't talk into this idiot songs you would want right now.

[00:51:38] Well, I, I kind of influenced by the conversation we're having and, um, I've just, I just pulled it up to make sure I get the name of the song, right? So I immediately just thought of a Dead Pony song and bear with me one second. Yeah. I'm thinking, yeah, let's go MK nothing. I think that's probably a, that's a banger. I really like that one. I mean, it's not, it's one of those bands genuinely again, they don't need my help, but it's a very impressive

[00:52:04] debut album. Um, and like I said, seeing them live with my wife last year, it was a really great show. So yeah, excited to see what they do. Awesome. Hmm. What about you? What are you thinking? So I'm going to go, I'm going to do a classic me and go something completely different. And a song that I really want to listen to right now, um, is, uh, childish Gambino and this is America. Um, okay. So, you know, weird currently people taking old swings.

[00:52:34] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I love Donald Glover. I think he's a phenomenal actor. I love his comedy work. Uh, community is one of my favorite TV shows of all time. Um, and I really, I really dig childish Gambino, but I think this is America song and the video, uh, like genuine pieces of art. I think they're incredible. Um, I think in my brain at the moment, I'm really trying not to, so I don't have a Twitter account. I don't have X. I've come off that

[00:53:03] nonsense. Um, same. I have it for kind of work and stuff, but I try not to go onto it, but what is happening at the moment in America and the fact that social media has become a wash with this every single second, something is, something is happening. Something is, is kind of, you know, new is, is dropping on our lap, like a massive, you know, bag of rubbish.

[00:53:30] Um, I think this is America, even though it's a few years old now is, is, is a vitally important song. I mean, I could have gone Kendrick Lamar cause I thought his, um, halftime performance was, was pretty exceptional as well. Incredible. Yeah. Yeah. But I've decided to go with this one cause it's a banger. That's fair. That's fair. I mean, yeah, I just, that Kendrick performance man. I mean, I don't know about you. I love the moment where he like, cause it's such a great

[00:53:57] medley. And then like halfway through he teases, not like us as a, like a little grin and then just carries on with the rest of his songs. And then it's like three or four bits later that that kicks in. And then it's just like, as someone who doesn't know a lot about hip hop and has only just kind of understood what's going on there. And, um, yeah, I've really enjoyed it. I thought it was phenomenal. And his album last year was incredible. I've got to say like, yeah, that, that's something I'm surprised by now artists, you know, occasionally doing this right of like, they just drop an album and you're just like, wait, what?

[00:54:26] And yeah, yeah, it's phenomenal. And you think, wow. Okay. I kind of like that. It's quite exciting to see people doing stuff like that. It's wonderful. I think you've got to be a certain level of artist and have a certain level of confidence to kind of do it. Um, but yeah, I think, um, I think Kendrick's great. I'm a big hip hop fan. I'm a big fan of Kendrick. I loved that. So the halftime, I mean, it was a really important moment, I think in a very dark time for American history, world global history. Um, I think it was a really important statement

[00:54:56] and the choreography, it felt like every single piece of it in terms of the dancing and the song choice and what he wore and what other people wore. I just thought everything was so carefully planned and mapped out. I just, I thought it was a piece of art. I really did. It was amazing. It was. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the great thing about live performance, isn't it as well? Like people can really bring something to it and yeah, planning out the visual side of it as much

[00:55:25] as you do everything else. I think that's something I'm always interested in when I go and see any live act is I think you can kind of go one or two ways, right? You can either just sort of do the generic screens, flashy images, you know, and that's all fine and cool, but yeah, I'm always here for something a bit different. Yeah. Like say costumes or, um, I just saw the Poison Descendancy tour with Trivium and Bullet, which is amazing. And then Bullet had like a giant inflatable, like whatever that

[00:55:52] thing is on the front of Ascendancy. And I was like, that's really interesting. Like what, what a cool idea just to kind of blow that up in the background and have a changing backdrops as a, as the songs progress in the set and just sort of, yeah, give you something to engage with in a live show. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It's, I mean, it's funny. So Bullet were my first, so when I started doing PR, I started doing PR quite late. I got into a very strange way,

[00:56:18] I, I wasn't, I used to work in music TV and before then charity and stuff, but I always liked music. I always liked, I always wanted to work in music, so I loved music. Um, yeah. And I got a job at Visible Noise through this wonderful woman called Julie Ware who works at Music for Nations now. And she just took a punt on me. I had no experience of PR at all. And I would say within the first

[00:56:44] six months of doing it, maybe less, I had been given Bullet for My Valentine and their debut EP, Hand of Blood. Wow. To PR. And, uh, and then their album, obviously. Yeah. And then, uh, Bring Me the Horizon as well. Um, so they were my first two bands. Well, my first two big bands anyway. But it's interesting to see this kind of renaissance of Bullet. I, you know, I think Matt's a

[00:57:12] really good songwriter and a very good musician. And, um, I think, I mean, yeah, I loved that record. I really loved working that record because I had a lot of belief in it. You know, I thought the song, the singles were strong and I think the album tracks, the album tracks are really, really strong as well. So it's, it's, it's been nice to sort of see it kind of not come back, but it's been nice to sort of see the, them, him as a musician, Matt, as sort of go back to sort of that. Um,

[00:57:41] but yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. It's a, um, it was a fascinating tour to watch and sort of, again, watching people do like a victory lap a little bit of, of that, but both just seem to really, really enjoy it. I think that was, that was my big takeaway from it. And, um, yeah, I've always wondered actually, yeah, how you got started in the industry. So from there, just kind of, I guess, whatever came up and you were just moving from band to band and so from there. So, I mean, yeah, so I worked, I worked in charity, it was music charity. So

[00:58:11] I used to run, I used to work for a charity called TS2K that don't exist anymore, but it was basically set up to run, uh, kind of courses, um, or equipment, higher sort of, um, schemes for kids in deprived areas of London that maybe couldn't get access to equipment and courses. So my job was originally, it was a PR, but then I started to help them put together the

[00:58:40] idea of what sort of courses, young teenagers, young kids would want in London. And we were based in South London and we built, we had some money from the government and we built a recording studio and we started to do studio courses and we did studio courses for hundreds of kids and we did DJ equipment, higher schemes. Um, and then through that, I kind of then went and worked in music TV. I went to the top of the pops for a bit and just sort of randomly

[00:59:10] had enough of, of that side of things and wanted to be more on the artist side. And, um, yeah, Julie just, I went for an interview and Julie just gave me a chance and it was, um, you know, it was a really good two and a half, three years. And then I just went off and did my own thing continually from then. And I've never really sort of looked back. Um, but yeah, it's interesting. So Julie, Julie's a collector. Julie likes a lot of stuff. So as well as all

[00:59:39] of her kind of Gothic trinkets that she would have in the office, um, she had, I mean, thousands, thousands of CDs, um, and she was always really cool with me borrowing them. And, you know, you'd take CDs, take CDs home and digitize them or make my own kind of mixtapes, um, uh,

[01:00:05] or playlists and stuff with them. And through her, I mean, I discovered cave in and, and Mastodon and ISIS and all sorts of all kinds of interesting kind of music. Cause that's more where sort of her tastes sort of lean towards, um, but yeah, it was, um, yeah, it was really interesting, exciting time. Uh, and she's just someone else who's really

[01:00:33] passionate about music. So it was, it was lovely. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's the impression I got just looking very briefly at a glimpse behind the scenes of music. And that was something I was really blown away with at the festivals was just chatting to people like yourself, everybody backstage. It's like, Oh, there's a reason why this all works. It's because everybody here cares. It's not just the bands. This is like everybody behind the scenes is super passionate about music and just wants to make it happen and make people's dreams and careers come true. Right. Like

[01:01:03] without you guys championing people like this and giving them a chance, like it's not, wouldn't happen. I think most bands, like you know, and how to play music, put it all together. That whole other side of the world. I'm fascinated by it and like how it works. And I'm constantly seeing all these different people behind the scenes working together. I think it's, it's just lovely. I got to say, it's a really nice industry to kind of take a step back and look at and say there's a lot of good people here that really care and really want to make things happen.

[01:01:31] Yeah. I mean, I think you have to, cause there's no money here. Do you mean there's no money? There's no money in, you know, I mean, unfortunately for musicians, there's more money in PR than there is being a musician. Right. You know, and the same thing with journalists and I'm very, very wary and very aware of how hard journalists work.

[01:01:53] You know, you have media slowly becoming less relevant, digital media struggling to justify, you know, existing, you know, and I am forever in awe of young journalists, young people that come through and they want to work in music. They want to write about music. They want to discover things and they want, and they, they want to kind of write about it.

[01:02:19] I, I, I have so much admiration for these, for these people. And, and it is really lovely at festivals like Trees where we work and we get to kind of deal with these kind of wonderful people kind of day to day and help them out as much as we can. And, and yeah, same thing with, with bands, you know, like it's harder and harder for bands, new bands to make a dent because there aren't that many platforms available to new artists to kind of shout about.

[01:02:49] Because it's, the industry is more about big things, certain, certain things, you know, surefire things. So yeah, I mean, I, I just, I, I have all the admiration and, and, and love in the world for those people. But let's go to your last choice. Let's go to your last track, our last tracks, our final tracks.

[01:03:12] So just again, thinking about the tone of what we've just been discussing and just put a song in my head by that last sentence you're saying about bands struggling and like, you know, having to really fight for their corner. I immediately thought of a day to remember. And I'm thinking specifically, I made of wax, Larry, what are you made of?

[01:03:32] And it's, I mean, there's so many of that, that whole album is obviously about the band, like just struggling and like getting away from the small towns, getting out onto the road, making it as a band. And that song, I think it's such a banger. It's got a great riff and bridge in the middle. And it's clearly quite an angry song about the state of the music industry. I mean, there's a bunch of songs in that album that are about it, but I just thought in terms of like having a bit of a fun.

[01:04:02] Riff to end on. Yeah. It was either that or what's the one? Mr. Highway's thinking about the end. It was one of those two. But yeah, I think I'll go with, I'll go with my former choice. Nice. How about you? So yeah, sticking with the theme of, you know, it being very hard to be in a band, I'm going to go with a band that no longer exists anymore. And that's Ruben. Oh, yes. Another band that are very, very linked to 2000 Trees. And the fact that they were booked for the first ever one and then didn't actually make it.

[01:04:30] And I'm going to go, their final record was called In Nothing We Trust. And it's just a brilliant record. It's such a brilliant record. And there's a song called Suffocation of the Soul, which is the second track. And it's dark and it's interesting and it's heavy and melodic. And I was very fortunate to manage.

[01:05:00] I used to manage artists as well as kind of PR. So I managed a band called Arcane Roots and I managed Jamie Lemon from Ruben and I managed a band called Black Peaks. And Black Peaks played a show in Brighton, the hometown show in Brighton. Yeah. And Jamie came along and did this song with Black Peaks and live on stage. And it was just awesome. It was just incredible. It was just amazing.

[01:05:25] And it's the constant frustration of a PR or of someone that's making mixtapes for people to be like, here's a load of awesome music. Please go listen to this. Or even with our podcast, you know, like a large part of the podcast is about this band is underrated or this band made a great song or this song is amazing. You should check it out. A large part of it is this frustration that it's not always the greatest things that have the biggest reward.

[01:05:54] And I think music discovery, making mixtapes, putting together festival playlists or whatever it is that I do, I tend to try the most I can for the things that I love. You know, I extend it to, I mean, I read magazines. I am pretty old school. So I subscribe. I'm a subscriber to a bunch of different magazines.

[01:06:21] And I, you know, Patreon podcasts that I like. I think it's really, really important for people listening to this or anybody in the world. If there's something that you like and you're getting it for free, as often people do these days. Yeah. Yeah. To have that understanding that if there is no financial support, that thing is not going to exist for a long time. It will, it will die. It will stop and it will die. But yeah, I think I love that song. I love, I love Ruben. I love Jamie Lemon.

[01:06:52] And I think it's a, it's, it's a nice album. It's not an album closer on the record, but I think it'd be a nice, it's a nice mixtape ender. I'd agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Got a lot of time for Jamie Lemon and Ruben. And like you say, like so, so many bands, man, as you mentioned, like Arcane Roots, Blackbeaks. And you see them sort of pop up in different variations now. Like obviously speaking with the guys at Every Hell and seeing them because of almost getting like a second chance to kind of put that together was really awesome.

[01:07:20] And then I'm thinking like Vauer is another band, you know, you've got like Palm Reader and people like that that sort of, yeah, get a second wind. But as you say, it's still precarious. Like these people aren't invincible. Like it's not, oh, you're another band. You must be fine. It's like, no, they still need your support. I'm with you on that. I'm 100%. Like, yeah, I get, I get we're all limited. Right. In terms of what we can afford and do. Like, you know, there's totally understandable, but I'm with you a hundred percent. Yeah.

[01:07:46] If you're listening to something, you're experiencing something and you really love it and you love the people that make it. Yeah. Just support them in any way that you can. Like, cause as you say, like we have the tendency now, especially in the day and age of streaming to just think, oh, it's fine. They'll always be around. There'll always be something. No, no, it's not the case. Not at all. No, absolutely. Yeah. No one's too big to fail, I think, in this industry.

[01:08:12] No, and it's, you know, it's often reasons outside of those, those kind of immediate kind of notions of why things stop. You know, I mean, some bands stop because even though on maybe on the surface, it looks like they're doing very well. You know, it's hard work, man. It's toil. Yeah. It's, you know, nowadays most musicians have to be social media experts as well.

[01:08:41] Like, you know, which is something that maybe didn't exist five, 10, 15 years ago. You know, they didn't have to constantly be pushing themselves, creating a persona, making content, you know, like it's, you know, I have so much sympathy and affection for people that are doing it. Um, which is why you'll, you'll very rarely hear me slag any body making music off.

[01:09:06] I just, you know, I just, I just think that everybody needs support apart from Disturbed. Those guys can, can, uh, can do one. This is a family friendly podcast, but yeah, apart from that, everyone else, I wish, I wish you all the best. Hmm. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. I think there's plenty of people out there to go and support. So I agree. It's like, yeah, check out a mixtape, check out festivals. Like if you're at an event like that, I always say like, make the most of it.

[01:09:36] You know, it breaks my heart when people say a band's like, oh, I'm not worried about the support act. I'm like, no, go and see the support act. Cause you'd never know. It might be your new favorite band. I mean, I don't know about you, Matt, like the amount of bands I've discovered over the years because I was just got there early and I was like, yeah, I'll listen to who's this? Hailstorm. Never heard of them. And then like, you know, half an hour later, you're like, I love this band and I will follow them for the rest of my life. Art Tangent Festival is that for me because, because that is more James's thing.

[01:10:03] But whenever I go, I'll discover Slift, who are this incredible French band they're playing in this year. And yeah, they were amazing. And Nordic Giants played a few years ago and that band are insane. They have like a movie playing on the screen and then they basically make a soundtrack over the top of this film. And I just thought, I think there's even a two promoters, one pod special about Nordic Giants.

[01:10:29] I could be wrong, but I'm, you know, I, I just have so much music discovery thrown at me at ATG. It's, it's wonderful. I always come away with a bunch of new things that I totally love. Yeah, that's it. It's just being open to things, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And that's the joy of mixtapes people. And now you've got something from us as well. Like have a listen, you might discover something. Maybe you've heard some of these songs you haven't heard for a while.

[01:10:56] Maybe there's something on here you've never checked out before. Yeah. Go listen to it and let us know what you think. I know I'd be very curious to hear people's feedback on this. Our insane mixtape that we put together. Yeah. Let us know. Let us know if it flows at all. Cause we have no idea. We just made this up on the spot. Yeah, absolutely. I'll be listening to it for sure. So I'll let you know what I make of it. It's brilliant. I'll let listen, Matt, thank you so much for coming on, man. I really do appreciate it.

[01:11:25] I mean, before we close out, is there anything else you wanted to say on the subject of mixtapes? Anything you have perhaps in your notes? No, I mean, not really. Just go and listen to the me and my mixtape podcast. It's really good. We post all of our mixtapes on Spotify as well. It's all through our link tree that you can find on our social media. So every show, you can go and listen to those 10 tracks that we talk about. Yeah, come find us.

[01:11:55] I highly recommend that you do. I'll be putting links in the show notes for people to go and check it out. But yeah, I guess all that's left to say is just thanks for coming on. Pleasure. Thank you very much. A huge thank you to Matt for coming onto the podcast and sharing your love of mixtapes. I hope you guys really enjoyed this episode. I, for one, had an absolute blast with this. I learned so much. Who knew it had so many applications, right? Make sure that you go and check out the playlist that we have made specifically for this episode.

[01:12:24] I've put a link in the top of the show notes for you there. Does it flow? Does it make sense? Probably not. But I think it's a lot of fun. So make sure you go and check that out. And also make sure you check out Matt's brilliant podcasts. You have, of course, got me and my mixtape hosted with him and the wonderful Mark Woodjah available in the show notes as well. If you want to dive even more into the world of mixtapes and the various applications, as we discussed in the episode, there are so many different routes you can go down and it's a really fun listen. So make sure you check that out.

[01:12:54] And also check out his other podcast, Three is the Magic Number. That is just about to return with a fantastic looking season full of wonderful guests. So make sure that you go and subscribe to that as well. Links are in the show notes for you to go and do so. Speaking of things that are in the show notes, you can check out the various social media platforms that are available for this podcast. Make sure you give it a follow. Stay up to date with what we're doing. I would really appreciate the support. I am on Threads, Blue Sky, Discord and Instagram.

[01:13:21] So make sure you head into the links and give us a follow if you haven't done so already. You can also do a few simple things to help me out as an independent podcaster. If you've enjoyed the episode, then give it five stars. This really does help the podcast to grow and navigate those pesky algorithms that we were talking about. So if you can do that and even leave a few nice words, that would be amazing. If you have left a review, please let me know because I love to read them out and give people a shout of praise on an episode of the podcast.

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[01:14:14] then please just head into the show notes and check out the donation pages or the merchandise featuring the wonderful artwork designed by one Alex Jenkins, whose details are also in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening to this. I will be back next week with an exclusive episode for the podcast. I'm very pleased to announce that I'll be heading to London this weekend to conduct a series of interviews with some incredible bands playing at the Chaos Music Theory Festival.

[01:14:42] I cannot wait to share what I get with you all very soon, so make sure that you are subscribed, you are following whatever it is you need to do on your favourite podcatcher so you do not miss out. Again, this is an exclusive. No other podcast is covering this and I cannot wait to share what I find with you this weekend. That episode will be with you on Monday the 3rd of March, bright and early in your podcast feeds for you all to enjoy. Thanks again for listening to this and I'll see you all next week.

[01:15:26] This podcast is part of Podomity, the UK's podcast comedy network. Why not laugh at what else we've got? Visit Podomity.com.