Random Fandom: The History & Legacy of Torpor

[00:00:14] Hello and welcome to Fandomentals, the podcast that explores pop culture one conversation at a time.

[00:00:19] I am your host, Harley. Every episode I interview different people from around the world to discuss

[00:00:26] a variety of topics within the world of pop culture. Thanks for joining me on this journey

[00:00:30] and I hope you enjoy the episode. Welcome to the sixth episode of Random Fandom 2024.

[00:00:46] And this, this is an episode unlike any other. I hinted at it last week that this is something

[00:00:53] very special and something that I felt very privileged to be a part of and that definitely remains

[00:00:58] the same. For today, I am joined once again by Lauren, Simon and John from the incredible band

[00:01:05] Torpor. And the reason for them coming back on the podcast is actually to say goodbye because this

[00:01:12] conversation was recorded at their last ever show at the Louisiana in Bristol. Now I reached out to them

[00:01:19] when I saw this announcement because I thought what a great opportunity to reach out to the guys

[00:01:24] and let them share their creative journey. Really, they're a band that are quite unlike anything else

[00:01:29] I've ever heard before and I mean that as the highest of compliments. They've built quite a following

[00:01:35] over their time and the fact that they decided to bring it to an end really intrigued me. I wanted to

[00:01:41] give the band the opportunity to share their story with everybody. It's not every day that a band decides

[00:01:47] to go out on their own terms and I was really, really glad that they were able to give me the time of day

[00:01:52] to share that story. I have to say this is definitely one of my favorite conversations for the year.

[00:01:58] Not only was it insightful, inspiring, but it was also quite emotional at times. Really, it was quite a

[00:02:04] privilege to be able to sit in the room and just let these three friends talk about their creative

[00:02:08] journey and what it has meant to them. So I want to thank the guys once again up top for allowing me

[00:02:14] to come to the show and have this very, very intimate conversation with them. And thank you guys for

[00:02:21] listening. I will make you aware of one very quick thing before we get into the episode.

[00:02:26] For some reason, my microphone partway through was kind of cutting in and out. I'm not quite sure what

[00:02:32] was going on. I think it may have been a dodgy cable, perhaps. You'll be pleased to know that the

[00:02:38] cable has been appropriately punished. But regardless, some of the audio on my end does get a little

[00:02:44] crackly and kind of dips in and out. I've done my best to fix it. And frankly, it doesn't really matter

[00:02:48] because it's really about the guys and what they have to say. And thankfully, their audio remained

[00:02:53] intact. So let's just get to it. This is the history and legacy of Torpa with Lauren, John and Simon.

[00:03:14] Hello, Lauren, John, Simon, and welcome back to the Fundamentals podcast.

[00:03:19] Hello.

[00:03:20] Hello.

[00:03:21] Thank you so much for inviting me backstage to hang out and chat on your last ever show as a band.

[00:03:27] You're welcome.

[00:03:28] That feels pretty wild to say out loud. I mean, obvious question out of the way first,

[00:03:33] how are you guys feeling about that?

[00:03:36] I think actually it's been better than I expected.

[00:03:42] Yeah.

[00:03:42] It's been easier. I mean, apart from I was ill for a bit.

[00:03:46] Yeah.

[00:03:48] Yeah, we will.

[00:03:49] That's fine.

[00:03:52] Yeah.

[00:03:53] Like we were saying about tonight, it almost feels like a leaving party tonight and it's kind of been

[00:04:00] been a bit like that for every night almost.

[00:04:03] Yeah.

[00:04:03] So a celebration.

[00:04:05] I think there's been a lot of people have, principally speaking, I think the idea was that

[00:04:13] we would just share the moment with everyone.

[00:04:16] Yeah.

[00:04:17] Kind of in the Buddhist sense of just being in the moment and not overthinking things.

[00:04:26] Yeah.

[00:04:26] Yeah.

[00:04:28] So I think that's what we've done.

[00:04:31] I think a lot of people have shared and felt their expressions towards us about how we've

[00:04:36] had like impacted them and how for us it's been like that mutual thing.

[00:04:41] Nice.

[00:04:42] Nice.

[00:04:42] So we've had a lot of emotional outpourings over the last 10 days.

[00:04:46] It's been really nice.

[00:04:48] It's nice to realize that people actually care.

[00:04:50] Right.

[00:04:50] I can imagine.

[00:04:51] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:04:52] I think it's been really nice to just let ourselves and let everyone else have the chance to celebrate

[00:04:59] in a way because a lot of fans, you know, they just decide they're breaking up and then

[00:05:03] that's it.

[00:05:03] You don't get to hear about it.

[00:05:05] Sure.

[00:05:05] But a lot of our friends have said, oh, I'm really glad you said it and you did it like

[00:05:08] this because it's been awesome to like know it was the last time.

[00:05:12] Just really enjoy it.

[00:05:15] Yeah.

[00:05:15] And I thought I would feel sadder than I feel.

[00:05:17] But actually, it's been amazing.

[00:05:18] It's been really fun just traveling around the country, seeing like loads of friends

[00:05:23] we've met along the way and made along the way and just, yeah, really like appreciating

[00:05:27] what this band has given us in terms of a community really like over the last 12 or 13 years

[00:05:32] doing this tour and going around pretty much everywhere that we've been and some new places.

[00:05:36] It's been like, wow, this band has just widened our horizons really.

[00:05:41] Yeah.

[00:05:41] Yeah.

[00:05:41] Like musically and individually.

[00:05:43] We've met so many amazing creative people.

[00:05:45] I can only imagine how that must feel for you guys.

[00:05:47] Yeah.

[00:05:47] And it's nice to hear that it is a celebratory thing because I can only imagine like, yeah,

[00:05:51] bringing something like this to an end, it's gonna, you're gonna have mixed feelings,

[00:05:55] right?

[00:05:55] It's gonna be a part of you that's like, oh man, it sucks.

[00:05:57] But for it to be ending on a high note, I think that's like every artist's dream is if they

[00:06:03] can go out on a high and not like fade away into obscurity or like you say, just reach

[00:06:07] a point where they're like, oh, I just can't do any more.

[00:06:09] And then that's it.

[00:06:10] Yeah.

[00:06:11] I mean, it was kind of like that, um, where the decision came from, um, in the first place

[00:06:20] after, after, um, after recording the album.

[00:06:24] Um, um, and then kind of almost because it was so, it turned out so well.

[00:06:35] Yeah.

[00:06:36] It, it felt a bit like a closure moment, if that's the right word.

[00:06:41] Yeah.

[00:06:41] Um, and it was, it was so personal and everything.

[00:06:45] But today it felt like the, the, the kind of end of something, but not necessarily the complete

[00:06:53] end, but it was like the end of a certain chapter of, of things.

[00:06:57] Of course.

[00:06:58] Um, yeah.

[00:07:00] Yeah.

[00:07:00] It's funny.

[00:07:00] Cause we knew this would be our last album, even as we were writing it.

[00:07:03] Yeah.

[00:07:04] John said, this is the last album I want to make.

[00:07:06] And we agreed.

[00:07:08] Yeah.

[00:07:08] We'd release it.

[00:07:09] We'd tour it and then we would finish.

[00:07:10] So we, we've known that this moment was coming for like literally the last, what, three

[00:07:15] years.

[00:07:16] Pretty much.

[00:07:18] Almost.

[00:07:20] But yeah.

[00:07:20] It's been in conversation for the last three years, essentially.

[00:07:24] Right.

[00:07:24] Okay.

[00:07:26] I think after COVID, there was a lot of, um, I don't know.

[00:07:32] I had a meltdown.

[00:07:33] Let's just say that.

[00:07:35] Okay.

[00:07:35] Um, found things quite difficult, um, over that period, just after all the COVID stuff,

[00:07:42] I just basically had a massive meltdown.

[00:07:44] Mm.

[00:07:44] Um, so the record, well, coming in and practicing after, after COVID for me was just like,

[00:07:50] a massive relief.

[00:07:53] Um, but then obviously we're all on this different journey, right?

[00:07:56] So I feel like that's what COVID did to people.

[00:07:59] It gave people different perspectives and that's not, that's no, it's no different to us.

[00:08:05] Yeah, of course.

[00:08:07] So, and you know, after many conversations, um, over the last three years, we sort of came to the

[00:08:16] decision that, you know, it's important to look after ourselves.

[00:08:20] Um, I mean, if you've been in a band for 12 years, it's, it is a grind.

[00:08:25] I'm not gonna, it's not gonna lie.

[00:08:27] We've enjoyed, we've enjoyed it.

[00:08:28] We enjoy each other's company and we're always, always going to be friends.

[00:08:31] Um, but somewhere along the way, you've kind of got to start paying attention to yourself.

[00:08:36] I mean, I, me personally, I wouldn't stop.

[00:08:39] Yeah.

[00:08:40] Um, but I've had to come to some sort of terms and realizations that, you know, I'm,

[00:08:45] that's me.

[00:08:46] That's my narcissistic ideology of what being in a band is.

[00:08:49] Right.

[00:08:50] Um, but yeah, that's not for everyone.

[00:08:53] And, um, also continuing forever more is, is, you know, it's gonna, it's gonna prove to be difficult.

[00:09:00] Right.

[00:09:01] We've had, I feel like we've had a great deal of positivity over the last year, like loads of

[00:09:07] positivity.

[00:09:08] We've had road burn.

[00:09:10] We've had ATG.

[00:09:11] We've done a lot of stuff.

[00:09:13] Um, and those are like massive bucket list moments.

[00:09:16] Right.

[00:09:17] So love that to be able to sign off on that, you know, finishing that the last year on those

[00:09:23] highs is just, you know, best way to do it.

[00:09:26] Yeah.

[00:09:26] I'm just remembering the, what I said to you, John, when you said you wanted to stop on

[00:09:30] and I said, as long as we play road burn, then you could stop.

[00:09:34] Amazing.

[00:09:35] The deal was we'll play road burn.

[00:09:37] We want to play ATG and do a final tour and then we can stop.

[00:09:40] Yeah.

[00:09:40] Yeah.

[00:09:40] I feel like we've done everything we wanted to do really.

[00:09:42] So there was some opportunities to play in Europe and we were approached by a booking

[00:09:46] agent, but never sort of ever materialized into anything, unfortunately.

[00:09:50] Yeah.

[00:09:50] Okay.

[00:09:51] Um, but you know, it was all a bit too late.

[00:09:55] Sure.

[00:09:56] I mean, for, for us as individuals.

[00:09:58] Yeah.

[00:09:59] That's fair.

[00:10:00] I mean, I, I imagine as well that when you have that end goal in sight, like I'm just

[00:10:06] curious about this, exploring this idea of like going into a studio and knowing, okay,

[00:10:09] this is going to be the last album having goals.

[00:10:12] Like, yeah, it, I want to play this festival.

[00:10:14] I want to do this tour.

[00:10:16] I want to go out this way.

[00:10:19] Am I right in thinking then that like, kind of, does that kind of ease the pressure off a

[00:10:23] bit when you're like going into a studio and recording and putting something together?

[00:10:25] Or is it like, ah, this is, this is our final statement.

[00:10:28] So this needs to be perfect.

[00:10:30] Or is it somewhere in between?

[00:10:32] Yeah.

[00:10:33] I don't know.

[00:10:33] I didn't ever feel like that.

[00:10:34] I knew for us, like with my bucket list, it was right.

[00:10:37] But we already had that offer from the last album.

[00:10:40] Right.

[00:10:40] Okay.

[00:10:40] So I kind of felt like if we do ourselves justice with this one, like that will probably

[00:10:45] be on offer again.

[00:10:46] And it was like, thankfully thanks to Walter for inviting us back.

[00:10:49] Um, I don't know.

[00:10:51] I felt really confident about this record.

[00:10:52] It didn't feel like any pressure.

[00:10:54] I don't know how you guys felt, but just going in and recording in the way we did with

[00:10:59] Wayne with all that time.

[00:11:01] Yeah.

[00:11:01] If it didn't feel pressurized, like it has done for me personally, um, it felt very free

[00:11:07] and it felt very creative and it just felt like, oh, it's coming out the way it should

[00:11:11] come out.

[00:11:12] Yeah.

[00:11:12] And we all really believed in the record.

[00:11:15] Nice.

[00:11:15] Yeah.

[00:11:16] I mean, I think this is apex to opera.

[00:11:18] Okay.

[00:11:19] Yeah.

[00:11:20] Nice.

[00:11:20] I mean, we've, I just, it is the most natural record I think we've ever written.

[00:11:25] Um, and the fact that we were taken away to, to Wales to do it and to spend seven days

[00:11:32] like living, living in it, you know, soaked in it.

[00:11:37] Of course.

[00:11:38] Yeah.

[00:11:39] Yeah.

[00:11:39] That was, that's the result of it.

[00:11:41] That's being there and just doing it for seven days getting like this, you know, the

[00:11:47] opportunity to just play around.

[00:11:49] Yeah.

[00:11:50] Yeah.

[00:11:50] Yeah.

[00:11:50] Um, get, have a vision.

[00:11:53] Like this is the thing with Wayne is like, I've got an idea of what I want for you guys

[00:11:57] for your next record.

[00:11:58] Right.

[00:11:58] So, which is always great when someone says, what are you doing?

[00:12:02] I want to record your next record.

[00:12:04] Do you know what I mean?

[00:12:05] Definitely.

[00:12:05] That's like, definitely.

[00:12:06] Yeah.

[00:12:07] All right.

[00:12:07] Cool.

[00:12:07] Yeah.

[00:12:08] Yeah.

[00:12:08] So, you know, and he, you could tell that he knew.

[00:12:13] Yeah.

[00:12:13] So he was on the same like creative pages, you guys.

[00:12:16] And it's like, yeah, let's make this like your statement.

[00:12:18] Yeah, exactly.

[00:12:19] Yeah.

[00:12:19] But I mean, I didn't have any, I've kind of never really had any goals in terms of like,

[00:12:28] you know, to do certain things or play certain places, but it was definitely, um, it was a

[00:12:37] very, I suppose in some ways, I always find that I do have a bit of a dual process with

[00:12:45] the music because we have our shared experience of the music and the songs and we talk about

[00:12:50] it.

[00:12:51] And I say like my ideas about what I'm thinking about behind the songs and find bits that we

[00:12:58] kind of share and things.

[00:13:01] But I also always have my own, I suppose, like very personal meanings that are always

[00:13:11] just going on for me that I know are kind of specific to what I'm thinking about.

[00:13:17] So with the lyrics and things, because I don't even really share the lyrics.

[00:13:22] Yeah.

[00:13:23] Yeah.

[00:13:24] It's a closed book.

[00:13:27] I mean, yeah.

[00:13:30] Yeah.

[00:13:31] Share the ideas and things.

[00:13:32] Um, but yeah, so when we were recording it, it was, it was a, that dual experience of both

[00:13:41] sides, all the things that we're sharing, but also just, um, my own goal of thinking about

[00:13:49] those, those things that like in my mind.

[00:13:53] Yeah.

[00:13:54] At the same time and just, um, whether it feels right and especially some of the, like

[00:14:03] Island of Abandonment.

[00:14:05] I don't think that could have come out anymore.

[00:14:09] Perfect.

[00:14:10] Right.

[00:14:11] Okay.

[00:14:12] Interesting.

[00:14:13] Interesting.

[00:14:14] Like the end, cause the singing, you know, I hadn't done any of the vocals before the studio

[00:14:19] anyway, but I had no idea that I was going to sing on the end until.

[00:14:23] Yeah.

[00:14:24] I thought I want to sing.

[00:14:27] Yeah.

[00:14:27] Yeah.

[00:14:28] And then, yeah.

[00:14:29] I said to Wayne, I don't want to try singing.

[00:14:32] And he said, can you sing?

[00:14:33] I said, I don't know.

[00:14:35] And then I just did it.

[00:14:36] It's only one way to find out.

[00:14:37] Yeah.

[00:14:37] Fire up the mic.

[00:14:38] Let's go.

[00:14:39] Yeah.

[00:14:39] But then, but then it takes a lot of faith from Wayne to be like, yeah, yeah.

[00:14:42] Yeah.

[00:14:43] Yeah.

[00:14:44] But that's what was great about the whole thing as well.

[00:14:46] Like you're saying, Wayne came into it with like,

[00:14:48] with an ambitious attitude of, let's try some stuff.

[00:14:54] Yeah.

[00:14:54] It was like going wild.

[00:14:56] It was just like, you know, he, he wanted to make a sound as expansive as possible.

[00:15:00] Yes.

[00:15:01] Like with the confines of our ability, ability and our sound.

[00:15:05] Sure.

[00:15:05] But with a nice vision.

[00:15:07] I like it.

[00:15:08] All the way through it.

[00:15:08] I've, I'm, I love to hear that because I did a little like songwriting season,

[00:15:13] like the start of the year and talk to different people about the studio process and like

[00:15:17] what that must be like working with producers, mixes.

[00:15:20] And obviously it's a lot of trust for you guys to come in and bring someone else into

[00:15:24] the creative process and trust that they're going to help you get what you want out of

[00:15:29] this.

[00:15:29] Right.

[00:15:30] And they're going to show you how to do it.

[00:15:32] And yeah, I can imagine the best result is when you get exactly what you've just described.

[00:15:37] Somebody who's like, whatever you want, I'll make it happen.

[00:15:40] We're on the same page.

[00:15:41] Yeah.

[00:15:41] You want to try something you've done before?

[00:15:43] Cool.

[00:15:43] We'll do it.

[00:15:44] You know, just kind of help you bring that vision to life.

[00:15:47] So that's awesome to hear that you guys had that.

[00:15:49] We've worked with Wayne for a long time.

[00:15:51] Like he's recorded everything we've ever recorded apart from our first demo.

[00:15:54] Amazing.

[00:15:55] So we've, we've kind of grown together and he knows what we want out of him,

[00:15:59] which is to get for him to push us and to try some different stuff.

[00:16:03] And he knows how each of us respond, what kind of pressure or not pressure we respond

[00:16:10] to.

[00:16:11] Nice.

[00:16:11] I just was thinking, just change the subject slightly.

[00:16:14] Go for it.

[00:16:14] You're asking how it feels to be playing the last show.

[00:16:18] I think it felt more, it felt more poignant recording the last album than it feels playing

[00:16:23] the last show in a weird way.

[00:16:25] Okay.

[00:16:25] For me personally, because it was that real stark reality.

[00:16:29] Like this is the last thing we're going to leave behind this record.

[00:16:33] And it wasn't pressure.

[00:16:34] I just remember that feeling like it feeling quite melancholy and the themes of the album.

[00:16:40] You know, we knew it was called A Petition at that point.

[00:16:42] We were working towards this theme of cutting off and letting go.

[00:16:45] And as much as that was to do with personal stuff we were individually going through,

[00:16:52] which was very like intense, visceral and happening in the moment in the recording process.

[00:17:00] The part of the theme of the album was also then became about the ending of the band.

[00:17:05] So, you know, as it's gone on and we've got closer to the end that that story has, I think,

[00:17:11] also collected around the record as well.

[00:17:14] Right.

[00:17:14] It was an interesting thing for me.

[00:17:17] I really like working thematically and we knew that as we were writing it.

[00:17:20] But as it went on, that became more of a whole thing.

[00:17:28] Wow.

[00:17:28] Yeah, that's quite powerful.

[00:17:30] I mean, that's also, I don't know if the word serendipitous is correct to say that like

[00:17:35] all of those things came together at the same time.

[00:17:38] But yeah, I love that.

[00:17:40] I love hearing that you like poured something so personal into it and so many different levels.

[00:17:44] And again, that you were given the space to explore that.

[00:17:46] Because I can imagine that would have been a very taxing process to go through,

[00:17:51] especially for seven days, like just all together working all of that stuff out.

[00:17:55] It was very raw.

[00:17:56] Yeah.

[00:17:57] Because a lot of the stuff that was happening, you know,

[00:17:59] personally was happening in real time in the studio.

[00:18:02] Wow.

[00:18:03] We won't go into details, but like a lot of the emotion,

[00:18:07] well, all the emotion on that record is like real time stuff.

[00:18:12] But, you know, it was great that we were there.

[00:18:15] It wouldn't have sounded the same if we were in London.

[00:18:16] I think it would sound like a very different record.

[00:18:19] Yeah.

[00:18:20] No, that makes sense.

[00:18:21] Yeah.

[00:18:22] I suppose it's been nice that you've been able to take that and then share it

[00:18:24] with other people one last time and just leave that as your stamp on the world.

[00:18:29] And yeah, sort of leave that legacy.

[00:18:31] Yeah.

[00:18:32] Yeah.

[00:18:32] And the feedback we've had about the record has been incredible.

[00:18:34] Like people were getting in touch to just say like, oh, it's really moved me.

[00:18:38] It's soundtrack difficult times.

[00:18:39] It lifted me.

[00:18:40] Like it's been amazing.

[00:18:42] I love that.

[00:18:43] That's really great to hear.

[00:18:44] Yeah.

[00:18:45] I've got to admit, I've enjoyed checking out because for like transparency,

[00:18:48] like it's not a style of music that I'm too familiar with.

[00:18:51] And like this year has been a real journey for me,

[00:18:53] like discovering all sorts of different genres,

[00:18:55] like going to ATG, meeting you guys and a bunch of other bands,

[00:18:58] same with trees.

[00:18:59] It's been brilliant.

[00:19:00] So like preparing for this was listening back to it.

[00:19:02] And I'm just like, yeah,

[00:19:03] I don't think I've ever heard anything like this.

[00:19:06] And I mean, that's the sincerest compliment.

[00:19:08] Like I was really,

[00:19:09] really amazed at just what you guys were able to do,

[00:19:11] like the kind of expansiveness of it.

[00:19:12] But the fact I couldn't really pick up where it was going,

[00:19:15] but in a good way, it was a nice journey.

[00:19:17] So yeah,

[00:19:17] I can totally see how that would connect to people listening to it.

[00:19:21] Because I think actually it was something I read on one of your profiles.

[00:19:24] Someone used the word catharsis to describe a lot of how your music makes

[00:19:28] people feel.

[00:19:29] And I can totally see how that comes across.

[00:19:31] And just talking to you,

[00:19:33] it's like, well,

[00:19:33] that's clearly what was going into it as well.

[00:19:35] It must've been that for you.

[00:19:36] So it translates,

[00:19:37] which is awesome.

[00:19:39] We would all use that word.

[00:19:39] You might be,

[00:19:40] don't use that word,

[00:19:41] John,

[00:19:41] but at different times I feel like that.

[00:19:43] And I think so.

[00:19:44] Yeah.

[00:19:45] Yeah.

[00:19:47] Yeah.

[00:19:49] I don't think there's lots of different processes in it for me.

[00:19:58] I suppose.

[00:19:58] Cause it kind of,

[00:19:59] I think it's just the type like I am with lots of things in life.

[00:20:04] I kind of,

[00:20:05] I go,

[00:20:07] that's the strange thing,

[00:20:08] even though I'm outwardly expressing,

[00:20:10] but at the same time,

[00:20:11] I'm kind of not,

[00:20:12] I'm going inward.

[00:20:14] Yeah.

[00:20:14] In my own head.

[00:20:16] Like sometimes when we play live,

[00:20:19] it's almost like,

[00:20:22] I don't know,

[00:20:23] I'm going inside myself,

[00:20:25] especially when it's just so loud,

[00:20:26] like enveloping sound.

[00:20:28] Yeah.

[00:20:28] And actually the really nice thing about that is when there's other people

[00:20:33] experiencing a similar thing.

[00:20:35] Like there's someone at the show the other day was just saying,

[00:20:38] like,

[00:20:38] it was really hypnotic and like immersive.

[00:20:43] And I love the fact that,

[00:20:47] that that translates,

[00:20:49] even though,

[00:20:50] cause there could be a worry that I'm just,

[00:20:52] you know,

[00:20:54] that because I'm kind of going inwardly.

[00:20:58] Yeah.

[00:20:58] Um,

[00:21:00] that then,

[00:21:01] you know,

[00:21:01] the experience is not shared,

[00:21:02] but it's not that way.

[00:21:05] Yeah.

[00:21:05] Um,

[00:21:06] and hopefully it's more because sometimes it,

[00:21:08] I suppose like with lots of things,

[00:21:11] even though we are really loud,

[00:21:14] I think there is also,

[00:21:16] there's,

[00:21:16] there's something,

[00:21:18] you know,

[00:21:20] there's something special about a subtle edge to things.

[00:21:27] Right.

[00:21:27] Where everything's not so obvious.

[00:21:30] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:31] Or that actually can be,

[00:21:33] um,

[00:21:35] have more impact.

[00:21:37] Yeah.

[00:21:37] Yeah.

[00:21:38] Like kind of saying something right in the right way,

[00:21:43] in a couple of words is better than like,

[00:21:45] you know,

[00:21:46] rambling like I could be doing now.

[00:21:48] No,

[00:21:49] I totally agree.

[00:21:50] I totally agree.

[00:21:51] Yeah.

[00:21:51] Just,

[00:21:52] I don't know.

[00:21:52] I like to just try and think that,

[00:21:56] yeah,

[00:21:57] there's a kind of,

[00:21:59] uh,

[00:22:00] I don't know,

[00:22:00] summation of feeling in what we're doing.

[00:22:03] Yeah.

[00:22:04] Yeah.

[00:22:05] that kind of,

[00:22:08] that comes across and that people,

[00:22:11] by saying,

[00:22:12] even though they don't know necessarily what the lyrics are,

[00:22:16] it's just,

[00:22:16] it is really nice to know that people feel it without even knowing what they are.

[00:22:22] Yeah.

[00:22:22] Yeah.

[00:22:23] I think that can definitely be the case.

[00:22:25] I mean,

[00:22:25] again,

[00:22:25] I've,

[00:22:25] I've spoke to people that do like instrumental stuff and it still translates.

[00:22:29] Like there's like a feeling,

[00:22:30] even though you're like,

[00:22:31] I don't know where they were coming from when they wrote this,

[00:22:32] but I'm getting this or,

[00:22:34] you know,

[00:22:34] listen to bands sometimes in a foreign language.

[00:22:36] Right.

[00:22:36] You know,

[00:22:37] and you don't think I haven't bothered to look up what the lyrics are.

[00:22:40] It doesn't matter because I'm,

[00:22:42] I'm getting something from it.

[00:22:43] And that's,

[00:22:44] that's what I think so amazing about music full stop.

[00:22:46] It's just the ability to communicate something without words.

[00:22:51] Sometimes I like,

[00:22:51] yeah,

[00:22:52] like you can just get that across.

[00:22:53] Whatever this is,

[00:22:54] I get it.

[00:22:55] Yeah.

[00:22:56] And I'm feeling it.

[00:22:58] I quite,

[00:22:58] I quite like,

[00:22:59] it feels weird,

[00:23:00] but I quite like the fact that often like my words are the only like intelligible ones on the album.

[00:23:05] Right.

[00:23:05] Yeah.

[00:23:06] And I don't know how these guys feel about that,

[00:23:07] but I quite like on this record,

[00:23:09] how my words are at the beginning.

[00:23:11] And part of what I'm talking against,

[00:23:13] talking about is turning against the flow of language and turning inwards.

[00:23:16] And then the record,

[00:23:17] then from then on,

[00:23:18] you can't really make much out.

[00:23:20] And I quite like that.

[00:23:21] I think it was a bit accidental with the ordering,

[00:23:24] but actually I do like that.

[00:23:26] And then occasionally like John's song words will come through and you'll know,

[00:23:29] you'll know what he's saying.

[00:23:31] But yeah,

[00:23:32] for most of the rest of the album,

[00:23:33] it's just pure feeling.

[00:23:34] Right.

[00:23:35] I'm gathering that's really important to you guys.

[00:23:37] And in terms of like,

[00:23:38] that's the way you approach composition as a,

[00:23:40] as a band.

[00:23:41] It's really the feet.

[00:23:44] Yeah,

[00:23:44] exactly.

[00:23:45] I mean,

[00:23:45] you can only literally hear me screaming carbon and then the rest of it is unintelligible,

[00:23:51] absolute wailing.

[00:23:52] Do you know what I mean?

[00:23:54] Because I,

[00:23:55] I mean,

[00:23:55] it is a stream of consciousness actually,

[00:23:59] mainly.

[00:24:00] That was a single take,

[00:24:01] wasn't it?

[00:24:01] Carbon.

[00:24:02] That was a single take.

[00:24:02] Me basically whipping an SM 57 around in front of a small guitar cab.

[00:24:10] Just literally all of the squealing and feedback is me just.

[00:24:15] Yeah.

[00:24:17] Basically.

[00:24:18] This is a podcast.

[00:24:19] Nobody can see you gesticulating.

[00:24:20] Basically gesticulating the microphone wildly in front of the,

[00:24:25] in front of the amplifier whilst screaming.

[00:24:29] And John and I were in the control room just looking at each other like,

[00:24:32] what?

[00:24:33] I think Wayne was just like,

[00:24:34] well,

[00:24:36] Wayne was like,

[00:24:37] well,

[00:24:38] that's the take.

[00:24:39] I mean,

[00:24:40] that,

[00:24:40] like that,

[00:24:41] that song is an example of what I'm saying when it's like real,

[00:24:44] the real time stuff working itself out.

[00:24:46] Like the date,

[00:24:47] the day before that,

[00:24:48] at that track was just awful.

[00:24:50] Like,

[00:24:51] yeah,

[00:24:51] stuff was really intense.

[00:24:53] And then there was a point where you would just,

[00:24:56] you just like left and.

[00:24:58] I had to go for a big long walk.

[00:24:59] Yeah.

[00:25:00] Yeah.

[00:25:00] And when you came back,

[00:25:01] Wayne was like,

[00:25:03] so should we do a vocal take?

[00:25:05] He just handed you a mic and it literally all came out.

[00:25:09] Yeah.

[00:25:10] Everyone else just stood back.

[00:25:11] Yeah.

[00:25:12] The message is that,

[00:25:13] yeah,

[00:25:13] you know,

[00:25:15] we are merely carbon molecules.

[00:25:17] And that's,

[00:25:17] that's all I wanted to put across,

[00:25:19] you know,

[00:25:19] sometimes that's how you feel like.

[00:25:23] Yeah.

[00:25:27] Studio recordings,

[00:25:31] bands discovering something in the moment because you have that space.

[00:25:35] And to what we were saying earlier,

[00:25:37] you know,

[00:25:37] you've got people around you who are just letting you feel that out and

[00:25:41] explore it.

[00:25:42] I mean,

[00:25:43] and that's awesome.

[00:25:44] Cause there you go.

[00:25:44] That's something that you probably,

[00:25:46] well,

[00:25:46] definitely wouldn't have got otherwise.

[00:25:47] Right.

[00:25:48] That wouldn't have been on your record.

[00:25:49] And I think you've got that recorded forever.

[00:25:51] Yeah.

[00:25:52] I think my favorite day in the studio was when we had bass day.

[00:25:55] Nice.

[00:25:55] Cause Wayne's a bass player.

[00:25:56] So we were like,

[00:25:57] why are we going to have bass day?

[00:25:58] He just got out all of the amps,

[00:26:01] all of the pedals.

[00:26:02] And then they had a Fender Rhodes in the studio and we were like,

[00:26:05] Hmm,

[00:26:05] what would happen if we plugged the Fender Rhodes into the sun drone pedal?

[00:26:09] Like let's just record that.

[00:26:11] Yeah.

[00:26:12] That was so much fun.

[00:26:14] Yeah.

[00:26:14] Just making the most unholy bass noise we possibly could.

[00:26:17] Yeah.

[00:26:18] Yeah.

[00:26:19] So is that part of like what drew you to this kind of writing and this style

[00:26:23] of music was having the freedom to be able to explore these sort of

[00:26:26] ideas creatively?

[00:26:27] Yeah,

[00:26:28] definitely.

[00:26:29] Oh yeah.

[00:26:29] For me,

[00:26:30] like part of the reason this band has lasted so long is that we all give

[00:26:33] each other the space to do our own thing.

[00:26:36] You know,

[00:26:36] like we,

[00:26:38] and we've all tried stuff.

[00:26:39] We've all pushed ourselves.

[00:26:40] Like when I started writing poetry,

[00:26:41] I was like,

[00:26:41] I want to do some poetry in the band.

[00:26:43] And they just said,

[00:26:44] yeah,

[00:26:44] all right then.

[00:26:45] They could have very well said no.

[00:26:48] Simon bought a synth.

[00:26:49] You started doing vocals.

[00:26:50] John started doing vocals.

[00:26:51] Like we all,

[00:26:52] like,

[00:26:53] you know,

[00:26:53] we have our own little niche,

[00:26:56] but we let each other explore.

[00:26:57] I'm really thankful for that.

[00:26:59] Yeah,

[00:26:59] absolutely.

[00:27:00] You know,

[00:27:01] that's just,

[00:27:03] I think as part of our growth as musicians as well,

[00:27:05] quite honestly.

[00:27:07] Yeah.

[00:27:07] Yeah.

[00:27:08] And I know,

[00:27:10] cause I've,

[00:27:11] I'd never been in a band before.

[00:27:13] And I suppose that was always the thing that I was worried about.

[00:27:18] Yeah.

[00:27:20] Was feeling like I could even do anything kind of in front of other people.

[00:27:28] I didn't have the confidence to,

[00:27:30] that's why like at the beginning I did,

[00:27:32] I didn't even try doing vocals cause I was too self-conscious about it.

[00:27:36] Right.

[00:27:37] Um,

[00:27:39] and I suppose that,

[00:27:41] that's the thing.

[00:27:42] I've just thought,

[00:27:56] you're right,

[00:27:56] dude.

[00:27:57] Just like,

[00:27:58] you know,

[00:27:59] I found the two people in the world that I could do it with.

[00:28:04] Yeah.

[00:28:05] That's beautiful.

[00:28:05] Thank you for sharing.

[00:28:06] I mean that.

[00:28:07] Yeah,

[00:28:07] man.

[00:28:09] We love you,

[00:28:10] man.

[00:28:10] Yeah.

[00:28:12] Music in particular,

[00:28:13] I'm biased.

[00:28:14] Cause you know,

[00:28:14] I,

[00:28:15] I grew up playing guitar and I'm in bands.

[00:28:17] And so like talking to you guys now,

[00:28:19] like this,

[00:28:19] this is what I love is why I'm so passionate about it for this exact reason of like,

[00:28:24] that's what's so beautiful about it is it's,

[00:28:26] yeah,

[00:28:26] you can share an idea and you find people that will give you that space to do it.

[00:28:31] And more than that,

[00:28:32] they'll encourage you to share that with other people.

[00:28:34] It's not just,

[00:28:35] yeah,

[00:28:35] well done.

[00:28:35] That was nice.

[00:28:36] It's like,

[00:28:36] yeah,

[00:28:37] yeah.

[00:28:37] Let's record that.

[00:28:38] Let's put that out into the world.

[00:28:39] Let's back you up.

[00:28:40] Like thinking it was something that I would never really be able to do.

[00:28:45] How many would you know?

[00:28:47] Do I mean this?

[00:28:48] How many would you know who you've had conversations with them along the lines of,

[00:28:52] Oh,

[00:28:52] I can never do what you do.

[00:28:54] Oh yeah.

[00:28:54] But you know full well that person has something in them,

[00:28:57] like some creative outlet,

[00:28:59] some story to tell,

[00:29:00] but they never take that step.

[00:29:02] No.

[00:29:02] And like Lauren was saying,

[00:29:03] it was like,

[00:29:06] I've been around two people and not just saying you can do it,

[00:29:10] but like,

[00:29:11] we love what you do.

[00:29:14] Yeah.

[00:29:15] And what we do together.

[00:29:18] Hmm.

[00:29:19] And like,

[00:29:20] it's just a unique thing.

[00:29:24] And that's what I mean.

[00:29:24] Like for me,

[00:29:25] that's why in a weird way,

[00:29:28] we surpassed any expectations within,

[00:29:32] you know,

[00:29:33] a couple of years of even starting as a band.

[00:29:36] So everything on since then has just been like cherry on top.

[00:29:40] Yeah.

[00:29:42] Amazing.

[00:29:43] I was curious as well.

[00:29:45] Like to that point,

[00:29:46] how did this actually start?

[00:29:47] Like what was the genesis of you guys like getting together and being like,

[00:29:50] yeah,

[00:29:50] let's make some noise.

[00:29:51] Let's do it.

[00:29:52] Cause I,

[00:29:54] I just finished studying and then,

[00:29:56] I put an advert up and they were already looking for people and they met a

[00:30:01] couple of people.

[00:30:02] So,

[00:30:03] yeah.

[00:30:03] And then,

[00:30:04] yeah.

[00:30:07] And musicians wanted adverts basically.

[00:30:09] Yeah.

[00:30:09] Join my band.

[00:30:10] Okay.

[00:30:10] Was that here as well,

[00:30:11] by the way,

[00:30:12] or in London at that point.

[00:30:14] Right.

[00:30:15] Yeah.

[00:30:15] It's obviously,

[00:30:17] God,

[00:30:17] I'm a guess.

[00:30:18] Is it 19 years ago that we were living in London?

[00:30:21] That long ago?

[00:30:21] Cause we lived in London 14 years.

[00:30:24] 2012.

[00:30:25] Yeah.

[00:30:25] Yeah.

[00:30:25] We met.

[00:30:25] We met in 2012.

[00:30:27] Yeah.

[00:30:27] Yeah.

[00:30:28] Okay.

[00:30:28] So it's literally just,

[00:30:29] yeah.

[00:30:29] You saw an ad just was like,

[00:30:31] yeah.

[00:30:31] And we,

[00:30:32] we jammed together and it was like,

[00:30:35] that was easy.

[00:30:37] Well,

[00:30:38] we just played,

[00:30:39] um,

[00:30:39] what we did in order to filter people out was to,

[00:30:42] to,

[00:30:42] to,

[00:30:42] um,

[00:30:43] ask them to play wheel haven.

[00:30:45] Oh,

[00:30:45] wow.

[00:30:46] Yeah.

[00:30:46] So yeah.

[00:30:50] There were people that were like,

[00:30:51] um,

[00:30:51] I liked the concept of low risk,

[00:30:53] but they didn't know what to do.

[00:30:55] Sure.

[00:30:56] So he was like,

[00:30:57] Oh yeah,

[00:30:57] cool.

[00:30:57] I'll play wheel haven,

[00:30:58] but I can also play floor if you want.

[00:31:00] And we were like,

[00:31:01] that was the clincher.

[00:31:02] That was the clincher.

[00:31:03] Cause they're,

[00:31:04] they're in like what drop F something.

[00:31:08] Yeah.

[00:31:08] It was the dead.

[00:31:09] Oh yeah.

[00:31:09] So there's not even,

[00:31:10] it's not even a tune.

[00:31:11] It's just,

[00:31:11] just dropped to hell buggery.

[00:31:12] Yeah.

[00:31:13] And it just goes.

[00:31:16] So we immediately stopped looking.

[00:31:18] We were like,

[00:31:18] yes,

[00:31:18] this is it.

[00:31:19] Yeah.

[00:31:19] Yeah.

[00:31:20] Like John knows the thing.

[00:31:22] Yeah.

[00:31:22] John is the one.

[00:31:23] He's got it.

[00:31:23] Yeah.

[00:31:25] I remember us having a conversation about wanting to just start the nastiest band we possibly could.

[00:31:30] I think we were listening to things like Admiral Angry at that point and Kowloon,

[00:31:35] Walt City and Thou.

[00:31:36] I think that was one of the key drivers in neurosis.

[00:31:40] It was like always that kind of punk energy.

[00:31:42] Yeah.

[00:31:42] Really heavy,

[00:31:43] but always that punk energy.

[00:31:44] Like I don't particularly like metal.

[00:31:46] We don't really identify with metal.

[00:31:47] So when we were auditioning,

[00:31:48] we had like a couple of like very metal guitarists.

[00:31:51] So just,

[00:31:52] it's not,

[00:31:52] not the vibe.

[00:31:54] Yeah.

[00:31:54] And also,

[00:31:55] you know what,

[00:31:55] you know,

[00:31:55] when you find your people,

[00:31:56] right?

[00:31:56] Like,

[00:31:57] yeah,

[00:31:58] that's true.

[00:31:58] John said,

[00:31:59] we were like,

[00:32:00] ah,

[00:32:00] we just don't really like each other.

[00:32:02] This is really nice.

[00:32:03] Like have a nice chill time.

[00:32:05] Make some horrible music for them.

[00:32:06] Just.

[00:32:07] And then go and have a nice cup of tea.

[00:32:08] Go down the pub and talk about something serious.

[00:32:10] That's always been the vibe,

[00:32:11] hasn't it?

[00:32:12] Hmm.

[00:32:12] Yeah.

[00:32:13] Again,

[00:32:13] I can only imagine like just being in a collaborative group,

[00:32:16] like you getting on,

[00:32:17] having this,

[00:32:18] not even the same like creative visions,

[00:32:19] but yeah,

[00:32:21] personalities helps.

[00:32:22] Right.

[00:32:22] I mean,

[00:32:22] I don't know about you.

[00:32:23] I,

[00:32:24] I just,

[00:32:25] I kind of die a little bit inside when I hear those stories of like,

[00:32:27] you know,

[00:32:28] successful bands that,

[00:32:29] go on tours and do this stuff,

[00:32:31] but they all hate each other and like separate tour bars.

[00:32:33] They're like,

[00:32:33] that'd be hell on earth for me.

[00:32:35] I just,

[00:32:35] I don't want to pack it in.

[00:32:36] Yeah.

[00:32:36] Yeah.

[00:32:37] I can't imagine it.

[00:32:37] Yeah.

[00:32:38] Well,

[00:32:38] you know,

[00:32:38] you know what's driving that desire to go back to that and it's money,

[00:32:42] isn't it?

[00:32:42] Well,

[00:32:43] yeah,

[00:32:43] I suppose.

[00:32:43] Yeah.

[00:32:44] Some people have that as their principle.

[00:32:46] Right.

[00:32:47] I don't think what I think is,

[00:32:49] is any of that is to make music together and to,

[00:32:53] you know,

[00:32:54] be kind to one another and,

[00:32:56] you know,

[00:32:56] support each other.

[00:32:57] And look how far it takes you as well.

[00:32:59] That's the thing.

[00:33:00] Like some people might think,

[00:33:01] Oh,

[00:33:01] you can't get successful that way.

[00:33:02] And you,

[00:33:03] but you guys and lots of other bands that you meet at festivals,

[00:33:06] you know,

[00:33:06] like ATG and the others,

[00:33:07] you're like plenty of people around that do very well with that philosophy

[00:33:12] and find an audience.

[00:33:13] Right.

[00:33:13] And find people that connect with it.

[00:33:15] Precisely.

[00:33:16] There's,

[00:33:16] you know,

[00:33:16] plenty of,

[00:33:17] I think the doom scene was a very,

[00:33:20] I mean,

[00:33:21] there's a very,

[00:33:22] it's a very spectrum,

[00:33:24] uh,

[00:33:24] scene,

[00:33:25] but there was lots of very principled people.

[00:33:27] And I've learned so much over the years from those people that I've met.

[00:33:30] That's the thing we were talking again,

[00:33:32] weren't we about the people and the avenues that have opened over the years.

[00:33:36] And,

[00:33:36] and all of the wonderful conversations that you've ever had with other bands and

[00:33:40] the eyeopening moments that you have,

[00:33:43] um,

[00:33:44] that all contributes to it as well.

[00:33:46] Yeah.

[00:33:47] Yeah.

[00:33:48] Nice.

[00:33:49] What have been some of your like personal highlights then over the last 12 or

[00:33:52] so years?

[00:33:53] We were reminiscing.

[00:33:55] We were in Brighton the other night.

[00:33:56] We did a tour of Brighton of all the places we've like ever played in

[00:34:00] Brighton.

[00:34:00] Yeah.

[00:34:01] And the,

[00:34:01] one of the craziest shows we ever played was,

[00:34:03] um,

[00:34:04] Fitzherbert's I think it's called.

[00:34:05] Yeah.

[00:34:07] It's like a tiny venue and it's the venues on the first floor.

[00:34:11] And we played a plebeian grandstand after show party,

[00:34:15] like plebeian grandstand had played somewhere already that day,

[00:34:19] hadn't they?

[00:34:19] Yeah.

[00:34:19] And then we played a show with them like quite late at night in this tiny,

[00:34:24] tiny,

[00:34:24] tiny room in Brighton.

[00:34:25] And it was just amazing.

[00:34:27] Brilliant.

[00:34:27] They bought our record and they were like,

[00:34:28] yeah,

[00:34:29] this is the best gig we've had.

[00:34:31] I was like,

[00:34:32] really?

[00:34:32] They're like,

[00:34:32] yeah,

[00:34:33] you're sick.

[00:34:34] All the other stuff that we played has been rubbish.

[00:34:36] We're like,

[00:34:36] really?

[00:34:37] And I'm like,

[00:34:37] yeah.

[00:34:38] Brilliant.

[00:34:39] That was amazing.

[00:34:39] They got cut off.

[00:34:40] They got cut off after 20 minutes.

[00:34:42] Cause obviously it's gotten past license for the venue.

[00:34:46] Ah,

[00:34:46] right.

[00:34:46] Okay.

[00:34:47] They went,

[00:34:47] they were amazing.

[00:34:49] Watching plebeian grandstand,

[00:34:50] you literally shred the hell out of this like tiny little room with the,

[00:34:53] with the fish tank.

[00:34:55] With the fish tank.

[00:34:55] Built in fish tank in the wall.

[00:34:57] It was just going to explode.

[00:34:58] It was a bit surreal.

[00:34:59] Yeah.

[00:35:00] It was mental.

[00:35:01] Another of my favorite memories is playing with Armand Ra.

[00:35:04] And that's like a long time ago now.

[00:35:06] The reason it was so key is because we used to have a vocalist.

[00:35:09] Um,

[00:35:10] and she'd literally just left when we got that Armand Ra offer.

[00:35:14] Right.

[00:35:14] And so we were like,

[00:35:15] Oh,

[00:35:16] we're just going to do this as a three piece.

[00:35:18] Yeah.

[00:35:19] John had just started doing vocals.

[00:35:21] Yeah.

[00:35:21] We just written three new songs.

[00:35:23] And it's like looking back on it,

[00:35:25] it's quite ballsy.

[00:35:26] Yeah.

[00:35:27] Absolutely.

[00:35:28] But it worked out.

[00:35:29] We were like,

[00:35:29] we're not,

[00:35:30] not playing with Armand Ra.

[00:35:31] That's crazy.

[00:35:32] And that was,

[00:35:32] um,

[00:35:34] heaven in London,

[00:35:35] like massive,

[00:35:39] yeah.

[00:35:39] That was a crazy show.

[00:35:41] Yeah.

[00:35:41] I bet.

[00:35:42] I bet.

[00:35:42] But it was,

[00:35:43] it was the second gig I ever did vocals,

[00:35:46] which is mad in front of what?

[00:35:48] Like 600.

[00:35:49] I think it was about 800 people.

[00:35:51] Yeah.

[00:35:52] Good grief.

[00:35:53] Wow.

[00:35:53] So that was,

[00:35:54] yeah.

[00:35:55] But I could,

[00:35:56] I just,

[00:35:56] I just,

[00:35:56] I just,

[00:35:56] I just,

[00:35:57] I just,

[00:35:57] I just,

[00:35:57] I just,

[00:35:58] I do kind of remember it.

[00:36:00] I met all I remember was the sound guy was not fussed.

[00:36:03] Was he?

[00:36:05] He was,

[00:36:06] he was,

[00:36:06] he was like,

[00:36:07] he was like,

[00:36:07] I don't care.

[00:36:08] I want my dinner.

[00:36:11] Will you hurry up please?

[00:36:14] And then,

[00:36:15] was it the week after we went,

[00:36:16] we did our tour of Europe?

[00:36:18] Yeah.

[00:36:18] That's definitely,

[00:36:19] I think maybe that's one of my,

[00:36:20] I was going to say,

[00:36:22] Again,

[00:36:22] I feel like that's the dream for any band,

[00:36:24] right?

[00:36:24] It's just a,

[00:36:26] get to one show,

[00:36:27] play a show.

[00:36:28] Once you take that box,

[00:36:29] it's like,

[00:36:29] right,

[00:36:29] let's do a tour and be able to go to Europe.

[00:36:32] I mean,

[00:36:32] yeah.

[00:36:32] What do you guys do in Europe?

[00:36:33] Did you play any festivals or just like any cities?

[00:36:35] What do you do?

[00:36:36] This,

[00:36:36] this was just a DIY tour.

[00:36:37] That we put together with one of our old friends bands,

[00:36:40] Human Future.

[00:36:42] Yeah.

[00:36:42] So it was just a DIY tour that we put together on our own.

[00:36:48] Just many a good time.

[00:36:49] Really?

[00:36:49] It was,

[00:36:50] you know,

[00:36:50] where do we go?

[00:36:50] Went to Paris.

[00:36:53] Antwerp.

[00:36:54] Two German shows.

[00:36:57] Wow.

[00:36:57] Netherlands.

[00:36:58] Are we played in?

[00:36:59] Utrecht.

[00:36:59] Utrecht.

[00:37:00] Brilliant.

[00:37:01] Yeah.

[00:37:01] Yeah.

[00:37:01] So it was all quite punk.

[00:37:02] Again,

[00:37:03] it's all with the punk network rather than with like,

[00:37:06] you know,

[00:37:06] big promoters and agents or whatever,

[00:37:09] any of that.

[00:37:09] Yeah.

[00:37:10] Yeah.

[00:37:10] Good people wanting to put on shows.

[00:37:13] Yeah.

[00:37:13] No,

[00:37:13] it is.

[00:37:14] I mean,

[00:37:14] because it was this time of year,

[00:37:15] it was almost exactly nine years ago.

[00:37:17] And when it does get to this time of year,

[00:37:19] it always makes me think of it because it was,

[00:37:21] yeah,

[00:37:24] not something you normally do.

[00:37:27] It's already been done it once.

[00:37:28] Yeah.

[00:37:29] It could have,

[00:37:29] we could have done it more,

[00:37:30] but we never somehow managed to do it.

[00:37:33] I don't know.

[00:37:33] We were kind of more convinced that we'd wanted a booking agent to help out

[00:37:36] because it was so hard to do on our own.

[00:37:38] I can imagine.

[00:37:38] I mean,

[00:37:39] we had,

[00:37:39] we had big plans like after Rhetoric of the Image was released,

[00:37:42] we were going to do a Europe tour,

[00:37:44] but then the pandemic happened.

[00:37:45] So everything got squashed.

[00:37:47] Like we were supposed to play Roadburn in 2020.

[00:37:50] We were supposed to play Northern Discomfort in Copenhagen.

[00:37:54] that's right.

[00:37:54] Yeah.

[00:37:55] And we were going to do a European tour around that.

[00:37:56] And then it all just obviously,

[00:37:59] we all got locked in.

[00:38:00] We all got,

[00:38:00] we all got,

[00:38:00] yeah.

[00:38:01] And then after that,

[00:38:02] we just couldn't make it seem to make it happen,

[00:38:04] which is a shame,

[00:38:05] but it's all right.

[00:38:05] Nevermind.

[00:38:06] Yeah.

[00:38:07] That's life.

[00:38:08] Yeah.

[00:38:09] That's it.

[00:38:09] Yeah.

[00:38:10] Things do happen.

[00:38:11] Yeah.

[00:38:12] But I love that because again,

[00:38:14] it's that thing of,

[00:38:15] how many people make that dream happen?

[00:38:17] How many people,

[00:38:19] B,

[00:38:22] I'm going to go on tour.

[00:38:23] I'm going to put in a van,

[00:38:24] call some friends,

[00:38:26] make it happen.

[00:38:27] You know,

[00:38:27] it's,

[00:38:28] you can do it.

[00:38:29] You can totally do it,

[00:38:30] but it's,

[00:38:30] it's very rare.

[00:38:31] Yeah.

[00:38:32] It's again,

[00:38:32] I just,

[00:38:33] I admire you guys for doing it and for doing it in such a way where like,

[00:38:37] you've always just kept,

[00:38:38] you've obviously kept yourselves,

[00:38:40] you know,

[00:38:41] music first,

[00:38:42] enjoy,

[00:38:43] enjoy it.

[00:38:44] And then when it's no longer the case,

[00:38:46] that's it.

[00:38:47] I think that's the most important thing.

[00:38:48] And I think bands tend to get caught up in the business of it rather than,

[00:38:53] I can imagine that's hard to balance.

[00:38:55] Yeah.

[00:38:56] The fundamentals are what you need to keep in mind.

[00:38:58] Okay.

[00:38:58] I,

[00:38:59] I,

[00:38:59] and I think that's what we're quite.

[00:39:01] Yeah.

[00:39:01] I think,

[00:39:02] cause it always comes down to that discussion.

[00:39:04] What do we want?

[00:39:06] What do the three of us want?

[00:39:08] Yeah.

[00:39:08] Um,

[00:39:10] and then like take it from there.

[00:39:13] Cause like you say,

[00:39:13] but things can come up and there's,

[00:39:16] I suppose there's ideas that other people have or what you should be doing or where you should be playing and all these kinds of things.

[00:39:24] But yeah.

[00:39:26] And we just go,

[00:39:26] right.

[00:39:27] what,

[00:39:28] what do we want to do?

[00:39:30] Um,

[00:39:30] and how important is it to us?

[00:39:33] And how do we want to do it if we're going to do it?

[00:39:36] Yeah.

[00:39:37] Yeah.

[00:39:38] Precisely.

[00:39:39] Yeah.

[00:39:41] There's been a lot of like comments recently,

[00:39:43] like,

[00:39:43] Oh,

[00:39:43] I can't believe you're stopping now.

[00:39:45] You're just getting noticed.

[00:39:46] It's like,

[00:39:46] it doesn't work like that.

[00:39:47] Okay.

[00:39:48] You know,

[00:39:48] that's just a weird,

[00:39:49] like capitalist view of your music as a product,

[00:39:53] like product.

[00:39:53] Right.

[00:39:54] It doesn't make sense to me.

[00:39:55] Like we're not doing it.

[00:39:57] And just because people are looking,

[00:39:58] we've been doing it for the last 12 years when people weren't looking.

[00:40:01] So yeah,

[00:40:01] that is completely separate to what we're doing.

[00:40:04] It's got nothing to do with who's watching or who's not watching.

[00:40:08] Yeah.

[00:40:09] Yeah.

[00:40:09] You know,

[00:40:09] it's not our fault.

[00:40:10] You weren't looking.

[00:40:12] Fair enough.

[00:40:16] I don't,

[00:40:16] I don't understand a band that would just do it if they were getting noticed.

[00:40:20] Do you know what I mean?

[00:40:21] Like you're making a piece of art there.

[00:40:23] Like,

[00:40:24] yeah,

[00:40:24] it's great if people are coming to your shows,

[00:40:26] but if they're not,

[00:40:27] are you just going to stop?

[00:40:29] That's a really interesting point.

[00:40:31] Yeah.

[00:40:31] Yeah.

[00:40:32] I mean,

[00:40:32] I think everybody struggles up and my hands up.

[00:40:34] I struggle with that sometimes being just a Lindy podcaster guy.

[00:40:38] Look at the numbers and I'm like,

[00:40:39] Oh really?

[00:40:40] But then your point is like,

[00:40:41] I'm sat here now talking with you,

[00:40:43] talking with other people.

[00:40:43] I'm like,

[00:40:44] I just love it.

[00:40:45] Yeah,

[00:40:45] exactly.

[00:40:46] I mean,

[00:40:47] same with music,

[00:40:48] right?

[00:40:48] That's like,

[00:40:48] yeah,

[00:40:49] I totally agree.

[00:40:51] Don't create whatever it is you're doing.

[00:40:52] Don't,

[00:40:53] don't just get into creating something because you hope someone will pay attention and give

[00:40:56] you money for it.

[00:40:57] Like,

[00:40:57] it's nice if that happens,

[00:40:59] you know,

[00:41:00] and it's a,

[00:41:00] it's an added bonus,

[00:41:01] but art doesn't follow the whim of the market.

[00:41:04] That's just crazy way of thinking about things.

[00:41:06] It's funny again,

[00:41:07] like talking to a lot of creators this year,

[00:41:08] I've talked,

[00:41:08] I did a couple of episodes on like indie filmmakers and it was the same conversation of like a lot

[00:41:13] of the time people would get asked,

[00:41:15] Oh,

[00:41:15] so you're going to get picked up by the studio and yada.

[00:41:18] And they'd be like,

[00:41:19] no,

[00:41:19] that's not how that works.

[00:41:20] Like you just get enough money to make the thing you want to make.

[00:41:23] And then you share it with the world.

[00:41:26] And then you hope to make more of the same thing again.

[00:41:29] And it's like,

[00:41:29] that's the point of creating something.

[00:41:31] It's not to your point.

[00:41:32] It's not about getting the attention and getting money.

[00:41:35] It's like you're doing it because you've got something to say and you just want to say it.

[00:41:39] It seems really shallow to just think you would do it only when you're getting recognized.

[00:41:43] Right.

[00:41:44] Yeah.

[00:41:44] And then what does that do to your creative output?

[00:41:47] You know,

[00:41:48] I guess like I imagine,

[00:41:49] I can imagine as well.

[00:41:50] I think about this a lot for bands that get those one hit wonders.

[00:41:52] Right.

[00:41:53] Like it must be really nice,

[00:41:54] but also must be really frustrating because then you're like maybe second guessing.

[00:41:59] What do I do next?

[00:42:00] Do I try and write something that was the same as that or in the same vein?

[00:42:03] Kind of like,

[00:42:04] but it's actually you guys.

[00:42:05] It's like,

[00:42:06] that's a mystery.

[00:42:07] How do you know what's going to hit or what's not going to hit?

[00:42:09] You've got no idea.

[00:42:09] It's out of your control.

[00:42:10] Exactly.

[00:42:11] And once you do have that sort of success,

[00:42:12] then you are,

[00:42:13] you are a product and then you're just a record companies.

[00:42:16] I can imagine that's really soul crushing as well at times.

[00:42:19] Right.

[00:42:19] There's a lot of it.

[00:42:21] If you,

[00:42:21] once you start making somebody money,

[00:42:22] even in the indie scene,

[00:42:23] there's a lot in the indie,

[00:42:25] like,

[00:42:25] you know,

[00:42:25] you're the medium sized indie labels.

[00:42:27] There's a lot of that.

[00:42:28] You can see it.

[00:42:29] Yeah.

[00:42:29] Like there's pressure for bands to do like make a good product.

[00:42:33] Yeah.

[00:42:33] And then all of a sudden that's a whole different thing.

[00:42:35] Then it's not,

[00:42:36] you're not free to just do what you want to do.

[00:42:38] We've always felt really free.

[00:42:40] I think that's good.

[00:42:41] That's one of the bonuses of being constantly under the ground.

[00:42:43] Yeah.

[00:42:46] We can say that we haven't made it.

[00:42:48] We didn't make it.

[00:42:50] No,

[00:42:50] but I think,

[00:42:51] I think for some people though,

[00:42:52] that's a part of the challenge that they go for.

[00:42:56] Right.

[00:42:56] Like as in,

[00:42:58] uh,

[00:42:59] I suppose like being a professional,

[00:43:02] cause it,

[00:43:02] there's always going to be that side.

[00:43:04] Like if someone wants to make pottery and they want to make a living by it,

[00:43:09] there's a certain percentage of things that they all have to do,

[00:43:14] but we haven't tried to make a living out of it.

[00:43:17] So yeah,

[00:43:17] that hasn't been a concern,

[00:43:20] but no.

[00:43:21] And that's,

[00:43:21] that's an interesting thing.

[00:43:23] Right.

[00:43:23] A lot of bands are spoken to again.

[00:43:26] I love now.

[00:43:27] Now I know quite a few touring musicians and quite a few of them.

[00:43:32] It's interesting that the music isn't their full-time job.

[00:43:35] And so many people are surprised by that.

[00:43:37] You know,

[00:43:37] they have conversations with their friends about it.

[00:43:39] Like,

[00:43:39] Oh,

[00:43:39] but you tour Europe.

[00:43:40] You tour the,

[00:43:41] like,

[00:43:41] no people do say that.

[00:43:43] It's like,

[00:43:43] yeah,

[00:43:44] but I made enough to go and do it again.

[00:43:45] It's not my full-time gig.

[00:43:46] And that's because the industry is like that.

[00:43:49] But what's cool about it.

[00:43:50] And I get this from you guys and from other bands is like,

[00:43:53] rather than look at that as a negative,

[00:43:55] you know,

[00:43:56] and go,

[00:43:56] Oh,

[00:43:56] it's not fair.

[00:43:57] And there's only 1% on the top and all the rest of it is going,

[00:44:01] yeah,

[00:44:01] but there's enough for us to carve out a niche where we can get enough to

[00:44:05] make another thing.

[00:44:06] And if we have to go off and do some other work to fund it in the meantime,

[00:44:09] that's fine.

[00:44:10] I would say we've,

[00:44:11] I felt really lucky with this band.

[00:44:13] It's always actually paid for itself.

[00:44:15] There you go.

[00:44:16] And that,

[00:44:16] that is way more than I ever thought we would get,

[00:44:20] you know,

[00:44:20] like the only we've,

[00:44:22] we put some money up upfront to make the first record.

[00:44:25] And from then after that,

[00:44:26] like it's amazing,

[00:44:27] always just everything has gone back in the pot to make the next one.

[00:44:30] And that's the dream,

[00:44:32] isn't it?

[00:44:32] Yeah,

[00:44:32] exactly.

[00:44:33] Yeah.

[00:44:33] And then it's like,

[00:44:34] it's because you see some people who really do make a business out of their

[00:44:36] band and it looks really stressful.

[00:44:38] It's the constant hustle,

[00:44:39] isn't it?

[00:44:39] It's like,

[00:44:40] yeah,

[00:44:40] you just become like a brand and a merch shop then.

[00:44:43] And I don't want that.

[00:44:44] I mean,

[00:44:44] there's not interested.

[00:44:45] I think I watched something really interesting on the sky news and they were

[00:44:48] talking about people who like musicians and creatives that have multiple

[00:44:52] hustles to live the creative life.

[00:44:56] And it's things like,

[00:44:57] Oh,

[00:44:57] who's that drummer?

[00:44:58] He's in like,

[00:44:59] um,

[00:44:59] he's a metal drummer and he's also like YouTube podcasting guy.

[00:45:04] Oh yes.

[00:45:04] The downbeat.

[00:45:05] Yeah,

[00:45:05] there we go.

[00:45:05] So,

[00:45:06] and he also has a clothing line and yeah,

[00:45:08] yes.

[00:45:09] And he's got multiple streams and he's like,

[00:45:11] I'm not making any money as a full time touring musician.

[00:45:14] Yeah.

[00:45:14] My,

[00:45:15] I have to do all of this extra stuff in order for people to,

[00:45:18] for me to get money so that I can live in this.

[00:45:21] Yeah.

[00:45:21] You know what I mean?

[00:45:22] Yeah.

[00:45:23] Some people do.

[00:45:23] And that's the thing.

[00:45:24] If you can find a way to do it creatively,

[00:45:26] like I think of people that do streams or YouTube and it's like,

[00:45:29] yeah,

[00:45:30] fair enough,

[00:45:30] but like still work.

[00:45:32] I like you say.

[00:45:32] And it's not like,

[00:45:34] again,

[00:45:34] it's like,

[00:45:34] it's not being a millionaire and you know,

[00:45:36] he's had to work his butt off to get that up.

[00:45:39] Exactly.

[00:45:40] You respect that.

[00:45:41] You go,

[00:45:41] yeah,

[00:45:41] fair enough.

[00:45:42] But to your point,

[00:45:42] it's like the actual making the music and touring.

[00:45:45] It's like,

[00:45:47] that's,

[00:45:47] you're just making enough to do it again.

[00:45:49] Yeah.

[00:45:49] You know,

[00:45:50] it does feel like the music industry is a prime for exploitation to be quite honest.

[00:45:55] You know,

[00:45:55] you've got to,

[00:45:56] this is the thing about being principled about what you do and how you do it.

[00:45:59] Yeah.

[00:46:00] Yeah.

[00:46:00] Well,

[00:46:01] there's power in saying no.

[00:46:02] Sometimes there's plenty of power in saying no.

[00:46:04] Yeah.

[00:46:05] Knowing how to say no.

[00:46:07] Well,

[00:46:08] yeah.

[00:46:09] That's true.

[00:46:10] You had to drop a Zizek in there,

[00:46:11] didn't you?

[00:46:13] I like that.

[00:46:14] I like that.

[00:46:15] Drop to Zizek.

[00:46:16] But it's,

[00:46:16] it's nice though that I will say from what I've noticed as well is the industry,

[00:46:23] as much as people talk about that,

[00:46:24] you know,

[00:46:25] and how it's like you said,

[00:46:26] there is definitely,

[00:46:26] I think in any industry,

[00:46:27] right,

[00:46:27] there's going to be the money side of it.

[00:46:30] There is so much out there of just people supporting people.

[00:46:33] And that's why I think it's really beautiful about doing the independent stuff,

[00:46:36] being a part of that scene.

[00:46:38] Like you said,

[00:46:38] the kind of punk rock DIY side of it.

[00:46:41] There's plenty of people out there that will support you.

[00:46:43] If you say,

[00:46:43] I want to make this thing and they go,

[00:46:46] yeah,

[00:46:46] I like what you do.

[00:46:48] Here's someone that can help you make that step and that step and that step.

[00:46:50] Putting on a DIY tour is as a prime example.

[00:46:53] Cause people are just like,

[00:46:54] yeah,

[00:46:55] Going to put you on point in case.

[00:46:58] It's always a fine balance.

[00:46:59] It's like,

[00:46:59] we've got touring costs,

[00:47:01] you know,

[00:47:01] we have to ask for a certain amount of money,

[00:47:02] but if it's going to mean you,

[00:47:04] the promoter getting out of pocket,

[00:47:05] then like,

[00:47:06] we don't want that,

[00:47:07] you know?

[00:47:07] So everyone's just kind of balancing it in,

[00:47:09] in order to make it all just be able to carry on.

[00:47:13] And it is really,

[00:47:14] yeah,

[00:47:15] it's really heartwarming.

[00:47:16] I mean,

[00:47:16] fundamentally there are people out there that want this to happen.

[00:47:19] And yeah,

[00:47:20] right.

[00:47:20] Yeah.

[00:47:21] People want music for music sake.

[00:47:23] It is a community and it is an ecosystem.

[00:47:25] Absolutely.

[00:47:25] And I don't understand people that are just,

[00:47:28] you know,

[00:47:28] like demanding a really high fee and letting someone get really out of pocket.

[00:47:32] That's your ecosystem.

[00:47:33] Like,

[00:47:34] you know,

[00:47:35] we all have to help each other out.

[00:47:36] Otherwise it won't carry on.

[00:47:38] Yeah.

[00:47:40] I completely agree with that.

[00:47:42] Completely agree with that.

[00:47:43] It's,

[00:47:43] you know,

[00:47:43] and obviously that's quite like a bit of a hot button thing,

[00:47:45] isn't it?

[00:47:46] In the last couple of weeks with certain artists dropping,

[00:47:49] astronomical amounts of money in the whole,

[00:47:51] what was it?

[00:47:53] Variable pricing or whatever.

[00:47:54] We're going to talk about then that we won't mention them.

[00:47:55] We won't mention names,

[00:47:56] but we know,

[00:47:57] we know who they are.

[00:47:58] But that stuff's been going on for years.

[00:47:59] But to your point,

[00:48:00] I've always felt the same way of like,

[00:48:02] why would you take away from the fan?

[00:48:04] Why would you take away from the person that is supporting you doing the thing?

[00:48:09] But I can imagine if you get to a certain level,

[00:48:11] maybe you,

[00:48:12] you're just so far removed from those people on the ground floor that you maybe forget

[00:48:16] that that's what it is.

[00:48:18] And you've got so many people like to your point earlier of like making you a product.

[00:48:23] And,

[00:48:24] you know,

[00:48:24] it's now a business.

[00:48:25] So you like,

[00:48:25] you almost dehumanize everyone.

[00:48:29] Exactly.

[00:48:30] Yeah.

[00:48:31] Whereas I imagine being where you guys have been and lots of other bands have been like

[00:48:35] this at this sort of level.

[00:48:38] Maybe that's better then because you're more grounded.

[00:48:40] You can kind of just look people in the eye and be like,

[00:48:42] Oh yeah,

[00:48:42] actually it's better.

[00:48:43] Cause it's like,

[00:48:43] cool.

[00:48:44] Well,

[00:48:44] you know,

[00:48:44] the promoter,

[00:48:44] they're probably in a band.

[00:48:45] Right.

[00:48:46] Exactly.

[00:48:46] You're going to put them up.

[00:48:47] They're going to come around your house when they play in your city.

[00:48:49] Like you have to just help everybody.

[00:48:51] Cause we're all just swimming around in the same sea.

[00:48:54] Yeah.

[00:48:54] And we all need each other.

[00:48:55] Cause that's what keeps it all afloat.

[00:48:57] That's the thing I've been really struck by even just doing these,

[00:48:59] like I said,

[00:49:00] my first year dipping into like festivals and chatting to people.

[00:49:03] I couldn't believe how everyone knew everyone.

[00:49:05] I find that really just heartwarming and quite surprising.

[00:49:09] It is community essentially.

[00:49:11] Yeah.

[00:49:11] That is the core.

[00:49:12] And like what we were saying earlier,

[00:49:14] when you said about people going,

[00:49:16] Oh,

[00:49:16] why are you stopping?

[00:49:17] But not.

[00:49:19] And again,

[00:49:20] not like we were suddenly going to astronomically rise or anything,

[00:49:25] but at the same point,

[00:49:26] I think,

[00:49:28] but we're at,

[00:49:29] we are at that level where it's still just up to us.

[00:49:33] And I think once you start going up and things start getting out of your

[00:49:36] hands,

[00:49:36] then I wouldn't really like that anyway.

[00:49:39] I just don't want that.

[00:49:42] Yeah.

[00:49:42] Cause then it becomes about making someone else money,

[00:49:44] right?

[00:49:44] Like fulfilling a contract or,

[00:49:46] you know,

[00:49:47] touring enough to make your agent enough money or whatever.

[00:49:50] You know,

[00:49:51] I don't even know what goes on at that higher level.

[00:49:52] Cause I've never been part of it.

[00:49:53] We always float in somebody else's point.

[00:49:55] Yeah.

[00:49:55] It was like somebody else wants to just skim off you and then it's not up to you

[00:49:59] anymore.

[00:50:00] What you do.

[00:50:01] Yeah.

[00:50:02] I always felt it must be a very tricky thing.

[00:50:04] Right.

[00:50:04] The,

[00:50:05] the business and the art colliding.

[00:50:07] Cause the two very diametrically posed things,

[00:50:09] but they do need each other.

[00:50:11] And I always believe there's a way,

[00:50:12] I don't know about you guys.

[00:50:12] I believe there's a way that they can coexist,

[00:50:15] but very few find the balance.

[00:50:17] I think we,

[00:50:17] we,

[00:50:18] we would have found the balance of things.

[00:50:20] Oh,

[00:50:20] I believe you would.

[00:50:21] Yeah.

[00:50:22] It's just one of those.

[00:50:24] Yeah.

[00:50:24] And respect to the people that do.

[00:50:27] Yeah.

[00:50:27] Absolutely.

[00:50:28] Hard work.

[00:50:29] It's hard work.

[00:50:30] It is possible,

[00:50:30] but you're absolutely right.

[00:50:31] And I think it goes back to what you said earlier.

[00:50:33] Principles.

[00:50:34] It's just being able to say no and not be afraid of rejection or somebody saying,

[00:50:40] well,

[00:50:40] you know,

[00:50:40] I'm going to,

[00:50:41] you know,

[00:50:41] we'll drop you there and then be like,

[00:50:42] fine.

[00:50:43] I remember.

[00:50:43] That's okay.

[00:50:44] I think it was like,

[00:50:46] Miles Davis documentary.

[00:50:48] Right.

[00:50:48] Okay.

[00:50:49] It was a while ago.

[00:50:50] Yeah.

[00:50:50] I remember taking like feeling like he knew what he wanted and that was it.

[00:50:57] Yeah.

[00:50:58] Like it was just,

[00:51:00] it was his way or he wasn't going to do it.

[00:51:04] Yeah.

[00:51:05] Which I suppose is,

[00:51:06] is that what you call the punk ethic?

[00:51:08] I guess.

[00:51:10] Pre-punk.

[00:51:10] Yeah.

[00:51:10] So it wasn't really punk,

[00:51:11] but that's what you can.

[00:51:13] I think that's just being an artist,

[00:51:14] isn't it?

[00:51:14] It's just knowing what you want and knowing when to say yes and no and following that creative

[00:51:19] vision.

[00:51:19] Cause that,

[00:51:20] that's the point.

[00:51:21] That's what you're doing.

[00:51:22] And I think,

[00:51:23] you know,

[00:51:23] probably people like David Bowie were like that as well.

[00:51:26] A hundred percent.

[00:51:26] Yeah.

[00:51:26] Still obviously massively successful,

[00:51:29] but they kept doing it.

[00:51:29] Yeah.

[00:51:30] They had the artist kind of vision.

[00:51:32] Yeah.

[00:51:33] One of my favorite things.

[00:51:34] We did an episode on Bowie a while ago.

[00:51:36] And I learned during that conversation that at one point,

[00:51:40] I think the camera,

[00:51:40] which we're era was specifically,

[00:51:41] but there was one that was on the rise and he did a show with a band.

[00:51:46] And it looked like that was going to be the next thing for him was like,

[00:51:49] do the band.

[00:51:50] And I'm pretty sure they were looking to book a world tour and all the rest of it.

[00:51:52] He did the show.

[00:51:53] And then like,

[00:51:54] not even the band knew that that was it.

[00:51:55] Like for him,

[00:51:56] he was like,

[00:51:56] okay,

[00:51:57] I finished this bit now.

[00:51:58] And he just walked out of the venue after the night and they were like,

[00:52:00] where's he going?

[00:52:01] And he just,

[00:52:01] he just disappeared.

[00:52:02] And then like being Bowie,

[00:52:04] you know,

[00:52:04] came back a few years later with whatever he was doing next,

[00:52:07] something completely different.

[00:52:08] And I was like,

[00:52:09] damn,

[00:52:09] I respect the hell out of that.

[00:52:11] Just to know,

[00:52:12] like I could go and do this thing,

[00:52:14] but now I'm done.

[00:52:16] And I'm like fair play.

[00:52:17] And again,

[00:52:17] how many people have the guts to say I'm done?

[00:52:21] I'm good.

[00:52:21] Thank you very much.

[00:52:23] It takes courage.

[00:52:25] So,

[00:52:25] I mean,

[00:52:25] again,

[00:52:26] I know we've circled around it a fair bit talking about it,

[00:52:28] but yeah,

[00:52:29] what was that moment for you guys?

[00:52:30] Cause you mentioned like going into the studio that you were aware that was in the back of your minds,

[00:52:34] but yeah,

[00:52:36] well,

[00:52:36] I guess,

[00:52:37] what was it that kind of made you kind of go,

[00:52:39] this is definitely it.

[00:52:40] This is definitely,

[00:52:41] we're happy to just call it a day.

[00:52:44] Yeah.

[00:52:45] Well,

[00:52:46] yeah.

[00:52:46] It wasn't me.

[00:52:47] John's fault.

[00:52:47] I was that person.

[00:52:51] That's fair.

[00:52:51] No,

[00:52:51] I think in a lot,

[00:52:52] it was like saying that the things were,

[00:52:56] I think it started a bit before COVID for me,

[00:52:58] lots of life changes,

[00:53:00] which were material.

[00:53:03] Sure.

[00:53:03] The album in a sense,

[00:53:05] even though that sounds a bit crass to say material,

[00:53:08] these kinds of things.

[00:53:09] But,

[00:53:09] but yeah,

[00:53:12] I think I just,

[00:53:13] I personally knew I got to a point where I needed to simplify things for my,

[00:53:24] for myself a bit.

[00:53:26] There'd been a lot of changes.

[00:53:29] And,

[00:53:30] and in a weird way,

[00:53:33] like you're saying,

[00:53:34] because the album came out so well,

[00:53:38] it actually made things clearer.

[00:53:43] And there was just a certain sense of,

[00:53:48] it was a feeling.

[00:53:50] It was that feeling of,

[00:53:52] I think this is the moment.

[00:53:56] Yeah.

[00:53:57] Yeah.

[00:53:57] And it took me a little,

[00:54:01] you know,

[00:54:01] a little while to say it out loud.

[00:54:04] Hmm.

[00:54:05] But then I,

[00:54:05] then I just knew that instead of just kind of having it lingering.

[00:54:15] And I just kind of said,

[00:54:18] I think this is going to be it,

[00:54:20] but obviously not.

[00:54:22] We're going to stop right this second.

[00:54:25] No.

[00:54:26] Big album record.

[00:54:27] We're going to finish.

[00:54:29] He's leaving.

[00:54:30] Yeah.

[00:54:31] We're going to finish this thing that we've already started,

[00:54:34] which was the album.

[00:54:35] Of course.

[00:54:37] Nice.

[00:54:38] And then,

[00:54:38] but yeah,

[00:54:39] I think having the time off during COVID away and not doing it,

[00:54:43] and we couldn't do anything and we didn't see each other for the longest.

[00:54:47] We'd ever not seen each other since we started.

[00:54:52] Since we started.

[00:54:52] Yeah.

[00:54:54] Yeah.

[00:54:55] Just,

[00:54:55] I suppose,

[00:54:57] space for other things in life.

[00:54:58] And then we still said,

[00:55:01] it's not,

[00:55:02] never,

[00:55:02] you know,

[00:55:03] we're not saying completely never,

[00:55:05] we will never play music again together.

[00:55:08] Yeah.

[00:55:08] But it just felt like,

[00:55:11] yeah,

[00:55:11] a natural end to a chapter,

[00:55:13] sad as that might be and painful as that might be.

[00:55:17] But I think we've got so much respect for each other.

[00:55:21] Yeah.

[00:55:22] To,

[00:55:22] to kind of come to the agreement and say,

[00:55:25] like,

[00:55:26] for now,

[00:55:27] draw a line under this and do something else.

[00:55:31] Yeah.

[00:55:31] Yeah.

[00:55:33] Nice.

[00:55:33] Go,

[00:55:34] go walk a dog or,

[00:55:35] you know,

[00:55:36] go on holiday for a couple of years.

[00:55:38] That'd be nice.

[00:55:39] Yeah.

[00:55:39] All of our holidays have only ever been,

[00:55:42] you know,

[00:55:43] you know,

[00:55:43] you go to work and you're like,

[00:55:44] oh,

[00:55:44] have you been,

[00:55:45] you've been away for 10 days?

[00:55:46] It's like,

[00:55:46] what,

[00:55:46] you've been away somewhere nice?

[00:55:48] No,

[00:55:48] no,

[00:55:48] I've been in the back of a van.

[00:55:49] Yeah.

[00:55:50] And I'm deaf.

[00:55:53] Do you know what I mean?

[00:55:55] Um,

[00:55:56] yeah.

[00:55:56] And I'm covered in various liquids,

[00:55:57] some alcohol,

[00:55:58] some sweat,

[00:55:58] some blood.

[00:55:59] Yeah,

[00:55:59] exactly.

[00:56:01] And I'm now ill.

[00:56:03] Exactly.

[00:56:04] Yeah.

[00:56:04] I've got to go for another 10 days.

[00:56:06] Yeah.

[00:56:06] Yeah,

[00:56:07] exactly.

[00:56:08] Yeah.

[00:56:08] But again,

[00:56:09] I,

[00:56:09] I just respect the hell out of it guys.

[00:56:11] Like fair play for,

[00:56:12] thank you for doing it in the first place.

[00:56:13] Cause again,

[00:56:14] so many people don't,

[00:56:16] I'm sure there's people,

[00:56:17] there's going to be someone listening to this now.

[00:56:18] It's going to be thinking,

[00:56:19] yeah,

[00:56:19] but oh,

[00:56:20] I couldn't do whatever it is,

[00:56:22] you know,

[00:56:22] that I want to do my dream.

[00:56:23] And it's like,

[00:56:24] so to listen to people like you guys who've done it,

[00:56:26] it's,

[00:56:27] it's inspiring.

[00:56:27] It gives people courage to be like,

[00:56:29] maybe I should take a chance.

[00:56:30] Yeah.

[00:56:30] Well,

[00:56:31] that's the thing.

[00:56:31] Just because you're scared and like old me would,

[00:56:37] would be laughing at hearing me say this.

[00:56:39] Yeah.

[00:56:39] But just because you're scared doesn't mean you can't do it.

[00:56:43] And I was a very scared,

[00:56:44] shy person.

[00:56:46] And I never imagined doing this.

[00:56:48] I'm just going to do this now.

[00:56:49] You can do it.

[00:56:51] You can do it.

[00:56:54] Just do it.

[00:56:55] You make,

[00:56:56] you make the best art when you find people,

[00:56:58] you can be vulnerable with.

[00:56:59] Absolutely.

[00:57:00] That's my take home from this whole situation.

[00:57:01] We've all done things.

[00:57:03] We've been incredibly scared to do and let each other be vulnerable.

[00:57:06] And what comes out of that is something that I'm really proud of.

[00:57:11] Yeah.

[00:57:11] Like on behalf of all of us.

[00:57:13] Yeah.

[00:57:13] Brilliant.

[00:57:13] Amen to that.

[00:57:14] I love it.

[00:57:15] Well,

[00:57:16] normally I wrap these things up by saying,

[00:57:17] where can the good people find you?

[00:57:18] But I mean,

[00:57:21] your music will still be out of there.

[00:57:22] Yeah,

[00:57:23] exactly.

[00:57:23] On our sofas wrapped up tight.

[00:57:25] It is winter.

[00:57:26] Yes.

[00:57:27] Yeah.

[00:57:28] We should,

[00:57:28] we should mention Simon's going to show me a look now,

[00:57:31] but the,

[00:57:35] probably the thing we're going to do next is to make your side project erosion

[00:57:39] alive.

[00:57:41] Roskian.

[00:57:41] Sorry.

[00:57:41] So you should talk about that because people will be interested.

[00:57:44] Go on.

[00:57:45] So Roskian is a industrial synthesizer music project that I've put together with

[00:57:52] Jake Harding of Gravelines.

[00:57:54] He's a vocalist in Gravelines.

[00:57:56] Right.

[00:57:57] London,

[00:57:58] London people.

[00:58:00] Yep.

[00:58:00] Yep.

[00:58:00] We've shared many a stage together over the years.

[00:58:04] He used to be in Dead Existence.

[00:58:06] He's also in Landscap and Dolvassana.

[00:58:09] Lovely stuff.

[00:58:10] Many other various projects that he's in.

[00:58:12] He's a multi-project guy.

[00:58:16] So yeah,

[00:58:16] I kind of formed that over the lockdown period and wrote the first of four

[00:58:21] albums that are a concept about what,

[00:58:33] so shall I go into it?

[00:58:35] Maybe skip to the end.

[00:58:36] We'll skip to the end.

[00:58:36] Basically,

[00:58:38] basically it's a four album concept.

[00:58:41] Yeah.

[00:58:42] Okay.

[00:58:42] That talks about basically the dystopian vision of modern,

[00:58:47] modern civilization.

[00:58:49] Fascinating.

[00:58:50] The first album already exists.

[00:58:51] It's on Bandcamp and it's really,

[00:58:52] really good.

[00:58:53] Interesting.

[00:58:53] I know I'm biased,

[00:58:54] but it's excellent.

[00:58:55] You can already hear it.

[00:58:56] We'll go to that then and chuck it in the show notes.

[00:58:58] Yeah.

[00:58:58] Yeah.

[00:58:59] Very cool.

[00:59:00] Very cool.

[00:59:01] Yeah.

[00:59:01] Yeah.

[00:59:02] I think if we do anything,

[00:59:05] we'll post it on the Torper page,

[00:59:07] but I think we'll probably,

[00:59:09] we'll at least try something,

[00:59:10] whether it will ever see the light of day is another question.

[00:59:13] Okay.

[00:59:14] We've all got probably some little things that we'll try out.

[00:59:18] Yeah.

[00:59:18] Yeah.

[00:59:19] Yeah.

[00:59:20] I think like what you said earlier,

[00:59:22] summed up nicely.

[00:59:22] You know,

[00:59:23] it's chapters,

[00:59:23] right?

[00:59:24] Yeah.

[00:59:25] It doesn't mean you can't write another one at some point.

[00:59:27] No,

[00:59:27] exactly.

[00:59:27] Precisely.

[00:59:28] You know,

[00:59:28] we're never going to close the door on each other.

[00:59:30] Oh,

[00:59:31] there you go.

[00:59:32] I love it.

[00:59:33] Nice.

[00:59:34] Well guys,

[00:59:34] thank you so much for giving me your time before your show and let me hang out here

[00:59:37] and chat.

[00:59:38] And it's,

[00:59:38] it's been beautiful to chat to you.

[00:59:39] Thank you.

[00:59:40] You're welcome.

[00:59:40] Very welcome.

[00:59:41] Thanks for coming.

[00:59:42] A massive thank you to Lauren,

[00:59:44] John and Simon for coming back onto the podcast and sharing your amazing journey with me.

[00:59:50] I really,

[00:59:50] really appreciate you giving me the time of day.

[00:59:53] And guys,

[00:59:54] if you're listening to this,

[00:59:55] go and check out the music.

[00:59:57] Obviously they're not touring anymore.

[00:59:58] It's done,

[01:00:00] but they've left quite the legacy.

[01:00:01] And I have to say,

[01:00:02] as somebody who wasn't really familiar with the style of music,

[01:00:05] I was blown away by what I heard,

[01:00:07] especially live.

[01:00:08] And I can really tell by the atmosphere in the room that evening that they will be sorely missed.

[01:00:15] So thank you guys for letting me be a part of this.

[01:00:18] And thank you for sharing.

[01:00:20] I really do appreciate it.

[01:00:21] As discussed,

[01:00:22] there is a side project in the works from Simon.

[01:00:25] So make sure you keep an eye out for that.

[01:00:27] I'll be leaving links in the show notes.

[01:00:28] We can find out more.

[01:00:30] I know I,

[01:00:30] for one,

[01:00:31] will definitely be keeping an eye out for any future projects on the horizon.

[01:00:35] And speaking of things to check out,

[01:00:36] if you enjoyed this episode,

[01:00:38] then do yourself a favor and check out the series that I did at the Arc Tangent Festival this year.

[01:00:42] This is where I met these guys,

[01:00:44] along with a whole bunch of other wonderful people,

[01:00:46] both on and off the stage.

[01:00:48] So if you haven't heard those episodes yet,

[01:00:50] then please do consider checking them out.

[01:00:51] Thank you so much for listening to this episode.

[01:00:53] If you enjoyed it,

[01:00:54] then please consider doing a few simple things to help me out as an independent podcaster

[01:00:59] in my journey to have more conversations like this one.

[01:01:03] First and foremost,

[01:01:04] just tell somebody.

[01:01:05] I don't mind who you tell or how you tell them,

[01:01:08] so long as you do,

[01:01:09] because if you do,

[01:01:10] then it helps me to reach more people,

[01:01:12] have more conversations,

[01:01:14] and put more out there as an independent podcaster.

[01:01:17] It really is that simple.

[01:01:19] Word of mouth,

[01:01:20] social media,

[01:01:21] however you choose to do it,

[01:01:22] it all goes a long way.

[01:01:23] You can follow me on all the appropriate social media platforms.

[01:01:26] I am on Instagram threads,

[01:01:27] Blue Sky,

[01:01:28] technically Twitter,

[01:01:29] but don't bother,

[01:01:29] and I'm on Discord as well,

[01:01:31] where you can find out what I'm up to,

[01:01:33] latest episodes,

[01:01:34] or just get in touch if there's any feedback you'd like to give me.

[01:01:37] You can also support the podcast monetarily by either donating,

[01:01:40] or picking up some wonderful merchandise featuring the fantastic artwork,

[01:01:44] designed by one Alex Jenkins,

[01:01:46] whose details are also in the show notes.

[01:01:48] And don't forget,

[01:01:50] if you want to get yourself 25% off pet accessories,

[01:01:53] then head over to the link in the show notes for styleupyourpet.com,

[01:01:57] where you can get 25% off any pet accessories you choose to purchase.

[01:02:02] Right, that's enough from me.

[01:02:04] I will be back next week with another returning guest of the podcast,

[01:02:07] featuring one of the wildest conversations I've ever had, quite frankly.

[01:02:12] It's an incredibly broad topic,

[01:02:14] but it's one that is all over the zeitgeist right now,

[01:02:17] so I think you guys are going to get a real kick out of it.

[01:02:20] So make sure you come back for that.

[01:02:21] That will be with you on Monday the 16th,

[01:02:23] bright and early in your podcast feeds,

[01:02:25] so make sure you follow, subscribe,

[01:02:27] whatever it is you have to do,

[01:02:28] so that you do not miss out on that.

[01:02:30] Thank you so much for listening to this episode,

[01:02:32] and I'll see you for more on Monday the 16th.