Song Writing with Caitlin Cook

[00:00:14] Hello and welcome to Fandomentals, the podcast that explores pop culture, one conversation at a time. I am your host, Harley. Every episode, I interview different people from around the world to discuss a variety of topics within the world of pop culture. Thanks for joining

[00:00:30] me on this journey and I hope you enjoy the episode. Welcome back to the songwriting season of Fandomentals. I am back after a longer than anticipated midseason break, apologies

[00:00:53] for that, but life just sort of got in the way as it is to do from time to time. But I have not been idle in my absence. I have been finishing off the season as well as

[00:01:05] booking guests for the next two seasons and a one-off special more details on that to come. As well as doing some guest spots which I will be shouting out in their due course.

[00:01:15] But before we get to any of that, let's introduce today's guest. This is a wonderful conversation all about songwriting with the fantastic comedian, Caitlyn Cook. In this season I wanted to dive into as many different approaches to songwriting as possible and one of those

[00:01:33] is writing songs to a comedy show. This is quite a unique skill set and so am I journey to try and find the appropriate guest I stumbled across Caitlyn's work. She's done a

[00:01:43] number of shows the most recent of which the writing on the store which is her getting inspiration from bathroom graffiti. This really was quite an eye-opening conversation. We discussed the approach that Caitlyn takes to blending music and comedy, the healing

[00:01:59] power of music and finding a great writing partner amongst many other things. This really was a fantastic conversation I had an absolute blast talking with Caitlyn. I think it works fantastic and I highly recommend you guys go and check it out after this conversation.

[00:02:15] So that's enough from me. Let's just get to it. This is songwriting with Caitlyn Cook. Hello Caitlyn and welcome to the fan of End of the Spodcast. Thank you for having me. It is my pleasure. Caitlyn your hair is part of the songwriting season and I'm

[00:02:44] really excited to talk to you for a number of reasons first of all because this is the first sort of comedian that I've had on to talk about music from a comedy perspective which yeah

[00:02:53] completely unique in this season. I think the only one I've got so I'm just going to throw it straight over to Caitlyn. The first question I have for you and I'm really curious is what was

[00:03:01] the first song that you ever wrote? I wrote my first song when I was four years old and it was about my two cats. My piano teacher sort of started me on this exercise to learn the first five

[00:03:16] notes of the C scale. So C, D, E, F, G and so right as song using those notes. So I wrote a song and I being the little rebel that I was included A as well and it goes like this.

[00:03:31] It goes my name is Caitlyn Cook and I have to who cats. Their names are Alfie and Neki. Neki is Brown and Alfie is Orange. That's the my name is Caitlyn Cook and I have two cats. Anyway I'm a songwriting genius and have been sent out as well.

[00:03:48] I love that and I'll see if I can get some piano or something in the background for you on that. Why not? Love that. I'm not a piano player but I'm sure I can whip something up. That's genuinely awesome.

[00:03:59] You're not the first person to tell me about writing songs as a kid, but you are the first person to perform the song from your childhood so well done, first of all. And yeah, second of all

[00:04:11] I think it's such a fascinating thing that like a continual theme for out this whole season like every guess I've started with that question. And that has pretty much been the answer most

[00:04:21] of the time is yeah when I was a kid I just wrote a song about yeah let you just said my cats or yeah I don't know ice cream or whatever and just there's something I think really lovely and

[00:04:33] pure about that childhood exploration right with music of just having straight off the bat no expectations just this is what's on my mind and I like the sound of this you know key or chord or whatever and I'm just gonna write a song. Is that something that's kind

[00:04:49] of like just follows you then pretty much from that age right away and to what you do now? Yeah I mean I think I guess I don't know a lot of people that don't do this but I feel like

[00:05:00] everyone sort of goes around at least I do in their daily life and makes up sort of songs as they're doing them and I think that's a very childlike thing childlike thing to do and I think

[00:05:13] it's a wonderful way of keeping that sort of play in your daily life whether you're just like singing about whatever you're making for dinner or your pets or to your partner or whatever

[00:05:25] and I love thinking about how all of your guests have answered or most of them have answered about a childhood moment writing a song because it reminds me of all the teachers that I had where we

[00:05:39] you know the a teacher that a kindergarten teacher that had a guitar in the room or will help facilitate that and make it fun and playful and sort of open doors for for little kids to

[00:05:51] have fun with songwriting and I think for some people that are not songwriters as adults that must fade at some point but it's always been a part of me and my daily life I think yeah was that

[00:06:04] encouraged by your piano teachers well how did she respond to the song? She liked it she liked that I like went outside the box and and used to note that she hadn't taught me yet and I think she

[00:06:15] noticed early on that songwriting was what influenced me she eventually moved she was Australian she moved back there and I got a new piano teacher and I've had various instrumental and singing

[00:06:28] teachers throughout my life and all of them have noticed which I think is a sign of a good teacher that I am more likely to learn something new if I can build it into a songwriting so like for

[00:06:40] for instance like bar chords are pretty tough for new guitar players and yep I struggled with them for a long time and then I just decided I'm going to build some into a song that I'm really

[00:06:51] gonna enjoy playing and that's how I kind of mastered them. I think songwriting is a really interesting way into learning other sort of musical skills in a way that doesn't seem like

[00:07:03] I gotta do my scales or I gotta study this theory it's just a bit more open and it didn't fun that way it totally is a weirdly enough I was listening to an interview with Steve V. if you're familiar

[00:07:16] one of he's one of the most like insanely talented guitar players I've ever seen one of those people that you just watched and you're like how how do you physically do that

[00:07:26] but like I was listening to an interview him talking and the guy he's very very humble for all the success he's had but he was basically saying what you've just pointed out which is that

[00:07:35] people say no how do I get good at it they how do I develop these techniques and he just said passion simple it's like that's good if you don't want to sit down and learn all the scales and

[00:07:44] practice the techniques you're not gonna do it you're just you're gonna hit a wall at some point you're gonna be resistant to it so whereas if like you're saying if you can find a way to build it

[00:07:53] into something creative or make it fun then you can just do it for hours and hours and hours and yeah I think a lot of us is talk about that I don't know the flow state of like when you

[00:08:04] will just in that state of like I'm writing a fun song about cats yeah time just stand still does not just vanishes it's my favorite thing to do of writing a song and dropping everything

[00:08:19] else and forgetting what time it was I'm forgetting to eat yes when I met my fiance I'm sitting in our music studio right now and we I loved collaborating with people it was something scary about like

[00:08:35] figuring out if you can meet someone where they're at songwriting wise and yeah I saw him I met a man at number a friend actually I saw him do his show and he had seen me on a couple shows

[00:08:47] and and then we decided to try writing a song together and we wrote for nine hours straight and forgot to eat and laughter little butts off and like had so much fun and that's that's the beauty

[00:08:58] of like songwriting to me is is forgetting about the rest of the world around you. Yeah yeah I can heavily relate that that happens a lot in this house I'll be pretty cool at

[00:09:08] all of that of this room to be like have you eaten something when my wife and just like uh no three hours but this riff was really cool yeah just what exactly are going exactly yeah

[00:09:19] now it's something really lovely and pure and like to go back a little bit this idea of like maintaining that sort of childhood creativity and innocence yeah you you said uh you found that that sort of helped you keep that alive in you yeah I'm

[00:09:34] fast into pull on that thread a little bit more because I completely agree with you Caitlin I think a lot of people lose that spark right I'm not saying everybody has to be an artist or a song

[00:09:43] where I tip them yeah does there's something about that play element that a lot of people seem to lose so do you find like writing particularly in comedy helps you keep that going and never take it

[00:09:54] too seriously don't it would be like oh this is my job I have to write songs yeah I think very much um comedy breaks songwriting structure a lot in a really fun way and I think it of course

[00:10:07] keeps that sense of play um I also think about uh I've been talking about the word play lately of um we have a lot of like hang drums and hand pans and funny instruments down here because we do

[00:10:19] some sound healing ceremonies down here and occasionally we'll have someone who picks up an instrument or asks like how do you play that that weird-goard drum thing and I'll look at them

[00:10:31] and they'll say I don't know how do you play it play you know the idea of play is so um scary to us as adults because we were supposed to know or we had to take a lesson or we're supposed to be taught

[00:10:44] how to do something in a particular correct way because someone at some point said this is how you but it all just came from them initially playing around and hitting the drum and seeing what's

[00:10:55] sounded good um so I think like maintaining that sense of play and like child like um fascination and and not letting um the way things should be or or theory or like um trying to make a song

[00:11:13] more complex just for the sake of impressing an audience or complexity um for a complexity sake I think um yeah my favorite songs are the ones that pour out of you that have that sense of

[00:11:24] play and child like wonder and that you're really listening to what the song wants to be rather than right what you are trying to force the song to be. Love that yeah hard agree uh I had

[00:11:36] a really interesting conversation with a guy who John Gom highly recommend not just because he was nice enough to come on the show but genuinely very talented again one of these people that

[00:11:46] does a lot of crazy stuff for the acoustic guitar cool and we had this conversation about theory and he basically said exactly what you're saying of like you know when it comes to theory the idea is

[00:11:57] somebody just figured that out one day because that's what they wanted to do on the instrument yeah and then somebody else studies it and it gets given a name you know like and that's what this

[00:12:06] is and you're like well that's cool you can learn those rules that's awesome but then when it comes what you're saying which is being creative and like what do I want to do just do it just see what happens

[00:12:16] and this is the thing I find fascinating about music is it's weirdly intuitive I think unlike anything else right well I think but maybe like painting or something like that's probably the next

[00:12:27] thing like another art form where yeah you can learn all the technique like you can learn bar chords you can learn scales you can learn all that stuff but then when someone says right

[00:12:36] right a song there's no right or wrong answer it's just whatever comes out of you I just thought about you can I find that fascinating I think where does that come from?

[00:12:48] Yeah I think it's so interesting as well my my fiance I'm gonna keep bringing him up because we're also musical partners together um he's uh his name is AJ Holmes he directs my unimbursed show

[00:13:00] I directed his show we write a lot of music together and uh and he is a musical theater guy he was in book of Mormon for a long time um wow okay I opened the show on the west end he was

[00:13:13] overcoming him and um he uh he and I talk a lot about specifically like training in music musical theater training when you're taught to sound a certain way when you're taught to think about

[00:13:27] he's also a great pianist so he thinks about theory a lot and it's interesting to think about the training of it all someone studying it giving it a name teaching other people to sound like

[00:13:38] that to sing like that to play like that and then trying to break that all down and and re-learning what your voice actually does sound like authentically right um and to like to learn all the

[00:13:53] theory and all the training and then be able to sort of throw that away and figure out what your voice is what you actually want to say what the song really is trying to come out as and

[00:14:04] there's a weird juxtaposition between that we also talk a lot about how especially in like these sound healing ceremonies we do about how some kids growing up are taught you have a good voice

[00:14:16] or you don't have a good voice and what that and what that means of like what is good and how we're teaching these people that they shouldn't be singing but they shouldn't be making

[00:14:26] music because they weren't good as kids or they didn't have an ear they were struggling with tone and how fun it is in these in these ceremonies and the way we collaborate with people if just

[00:14:36] like that's your voice only you have that voice and how fantastic is it to just let it out and and let you sing whether or not you know the theory or you're supposed to sound a certain way

[00:14:46] I think there's something really fascinating about the way music can be really gatecapped and allowing it to be more accessible and and the people that study it and give it names teach that idea rather than it feeling like this sort of yeah gatecapped esoteric kind of

[00:15:09] high art that's early this and then accessible yeah that's the weird yeah like you said juxtaposition is a right word absolutely of yeah how music can be interpreted I completely agree

[00:15:21] yeah you can get the gatekeeping or you can get the free spirit it just do what you want man and idea I think especially this time there is on the more I've done this show as well like talking

[00:15:30] to different people just all the perspective you go that's how genre is a made you know that's how like new styles of music come up because either this person or group of people just go well I

[00:15:42] like this music and I also like this music what happens if we just put it together yeah we just try this thing and all like oh you're doing that over there on the drum I never heard someone do that

[00:15:53] before then you were going to get a brand new time signature yeah for example something just out of the blue and suddenly everybody goes oh how did you do that but where did it come from in the

[00:16:03] first place it came from I don't know it was just playing around oh there's just this is what can naturally to me and yeah it's fascinating tell me more about these healing music healing

[00:16:13] ceremonies you mentioned it a few times I'm really fascinated by that oh yeah maybe I'm just bringing up because I'm like in this space currently but yeah no no no they come from the structure is based around actually like ayahuasca ceremonies which like it's an incredibly like interesting

[00:16:30] way to go about music as like a form of healing rather than performing so we have this this basement space down here and what we do is we sort of like set intentions around a circle

[00:16:47] of guests who ever want to participate and of the attentions can be whatever is on people's hearts and minds and then we set guidelines and the general there's a bunch of guidelines but the basic one is there's no conversation there's no phones there's no like physical interaction between

[00:17:04] people and we all get to do our sort of like individual work collectively so everyone sits in a circle they get the blanket and an i mask and then we just play music for like four to six hours and it

[00:17:16] starts with like sounds and silence and meditation and singing bowls and and times and light sounds and then eventually builds into songs I usually songs in other languages that come from the ayahuasca tradition or they're all in like there's an old Hawaiian proverb one there's a lot

[00:17:38] in Spanish there's some importuguese but really these songs that like maybe won't take someone out of their journey if they're an English speaker so that they can sort of work through whatever they want

[00:17:50] to work through therapeutically and then eventually we transition into songs in English and so they're open the floor up for anyone that wants to share a song although people are like welcome to sing or

[00:18:01] play along the whole time and it's um I don't know it's a really soothing cool experience I think in this day and age we don't have many opportunities to not have like screens and different

[00:18:17] energies just like bombarding us at all times and it's really easy to like not be bored because there's a million things that your fingertips um and um there's beauty and in sort of uh saying

[00:18:31] no I'm not gonna look at a screen for today and i'm not gonna talk and i'm just going to sit with myself and like let all these uncomfortable feelings come up and and work through that through music

[00:18:44] so that's what those are that is incredible I've never heard of that um can you do me a favor and just spell that I'm gonna do a google which reminds me cue the google jingle oh what's his

[00:18:53] name it's time to google um i know that you're trying to keep this a clean podcast so I should maybe just mention if you want to edit the south of it it's you know it's in it's no legal

[00:19:09] psychedelic in many spaces that is not what we're doing here in these sound healing ceremonies sometimes there are psychedelics involved mostly it's mostly it's just pregnant mothers or kids or friends um that just really want to work through whatever is troubling them or

[00:19:31] just sit um and and journal and um and it's uh yeah it's really powerful and it comes from from the sort of like ayahuasca circle traditions in south America but um that's not what we're doing

[00:19:45] here so yeah that's what was kind of curious about yeah as the origins are um there you go that's amazing so how did you get into that was something you were introduced to yourself one day

[00:19:56] um that was actually through my my fiance he has sort of trained in that work for um almost a decade and um started to introduce it to me as we got to know each other and um it's been really

[00:20:09] powerful and and it's really changed the way that I think about music especially because I was coming at a lot of music through a songwriting perspective and a performance perspective a comedic

[00:20:21] performance perspective and um and it was a it was a different way to think about music where you're not performing your your underscoring people's processes so you don't actually want them to be like

[00:20:36] really intensely listening to your lyrics and thinking oh wow that was a really cool turner phrase she's so smart or she sang that really beautifully yeah you actually just want to provide this sort of like

[00:20:46] background almost like you're scoring their movie um and it's um it's a really interesting way that I've also seen a lot of like musical theater friends come and sit in ceremony and then

[00:21:01] start to sing and feel like oh my god i don't know what this voice is coming out of me but it's my voice it's not a performance voice I'm not trying to impress up on two people around me I'm just

[00:21:12] singing for the joy of singing um yeah unfilled expression exactly yeah so it's definitely a a new sort of practice in my in the past couple years of my life but it's um it's really opened up

[00:21:26] how I think about music and how I think about songwriting and um yeah i was gonna ask that yeah on that does it have an effect and sort of how you approach it now for your comedy or do you sort of

[00:21:37] compartmentalize those things a little bit um yeah i mean it's like it's not comedic these sound healing ceremonies just to the time although if we try not take them too seriously

[00:21:47] I think there's a lot of like woo woo garbage out there and and we try and be humorous about it but it's very different from you know performing stand up and musical comedy and

[00:22:00] trying to get the audience to laugh and um yeah it's a very different approach and yet it's helped me like i think i feel a lot more confidence in my own voice and

[00:22:13] in just like learning how to like take a moment and breathe on stage and slow down and just like hold this presence that i think before i was grappling with like a lot of stage fright and

[00:22:25] um fears of like bombing and not and the audience not laughing at all and now i sort of have this general uh calm and peace that that that it like doesn't the stage fright doesn't really affect

[00:22:38] me as much anymore. Wow i mean that's awesome i gotta say yeah i think uh to do musical comedy that when i think about it yeah i can understand why that would be so it's almost like double jeopardy

[00:22:53] in a way right because you're basically doing it's like yeah comedy just on its own in front of an audience is terrifying for all its own reasons before we're songs in front of people on

[00:23:02] its own also terrifying so put the two together yeah that's that's a tall order so that's really cool here that's that's helped you kind of work through that totally yeah i i think um people

[00:23:15] slam musical comedy a lot for for being bad and i think that's because it is those two things like i think and like good musical comedy is like really good jokes and also really good

[00:23:27] songwriting like really a good musician yeah it's hard to combine those especially because it feels like it breaks songwriting form in a way like uh you don't want to repeat a joke so often

[00:23:38] the chorus is not the same every time or yes comedy is all about surprise so if their if the audience can predict a rhyme then you want to not rhyme there or choose it different word or kind of

[00:23:51] break the sort of ABAB verse chorus verse chorus structure and yeah i find it fascinating i i've been such a fan of people like um bobernum and timension and flooded the color

[00:24:06] it's a tnation d and you know people that do it really well for so long um i think it's a really interesting uh just a small segment of songwriting it know it definitely is and you're right like

[00:24:18] the people that do it well you it really well and it's because it is a lot yeah it's a lot to sort of work with i think i think it's yeah i play it's very very just the idea of it for me just

[00:24:31] gives me anxiety just thinking about it like trying to cut with a joke and then also a good song interesting yeah that makes me curious then so for you when it comes to putting these shows together

[00:24:43] putting these concepts like you're gonna you'll let it show it a minute is all about graffiti which i thought was genius by the way like when i was sent that i was looking into it and i was like

[00:24:53] that's a really good idea because you would just get so much the hisor stuff out there was that sort of like a light bulb moment for you just literally just sat somewhere just looking

[00:25:02] free to you're not so pretty unhinged like it would make a song out of this kind of yeah i mean i've always loved graffiti i a bathroom graffiti specifically i studied um art history and undergrad

[00:25:15] and right um sort of as we were talking about like uh high arts and like inaccessible art versus um sort of low art base art um i was getting frustrated with the art history world and how

[00:25:30] pretentious and the leadistic can be and i um and i had been photographing bathroom graffiti for a while and i stumbled upon this one piece of bathroom graffiti that said um sense writing on walls

[00:25:41] sense writing on toilet walls is neither for critical acclaim nor financial reward it is the purest form of art discuss and i just loved that i was like what a beautiful prompt for a paper

[00:25:53] that i'm doing yeah and i started photographing more and more bathroom graffiti and being fascinated with just the ability if you open your eyes a little bit wider there's art everywhere you want to look um and why people share the most bizarre confessional sad

[00:26:11] hateful wonderful things when they can be anonymous on a bathroom wall and um and yeah at some point i must have just i can't even remember but i must have had that moment of like hmm i i

[00:26:22] bad i could write a song with these um i've always loved a found art piece i've loved a found art song and so i wrote the first song of the show which is called the pierce form of art and that is

[00:26:34] the first line of the song that piece of graffiti and um and that one particular song did so well at fringe on tour all over the world i would get standing ovation i would get lines of people

[00:26:48] showing me pictures of bathroom graffiti that they had photographed there was something that just like clicked in or i was like you know i have so many photos i bet i could write a whole musical of this

[00:26:59] so they show that i'm touring right now is it's a bathroom graffiti musical and all of the songs all the lyrics and all the songs were from bathroom graffiti and there's like um a men's first

[00:27:09] women's first unisex stall song there's um the song that's really blown up as called conversations with strangers and it's people responding to each other on the wall yeah yeah um it's a

[00:27:19] really fascinating like um the world for me the world of bathroom graffiti and um and i still get like hundreds of DMs a day of people sending me more pictures of bathroom graffiti to the

[00:27:30] point where i'm like i got to write a second musical yeah it's gonna stay before art out there yeah you've got a whole series on your hands now totally that's awesome now i love that i love

[00:27:42] the idea of just taking inspiration from something that is just arriving in everyday life and then just exploring it also that quote yeah i love to that quote when i heard it

[00:27:52] at the first time and i totally agree i think that's actually some merit to it that's like it's an interesting conversation yeah yeah i think um i was just talking to another um

[00:28:07] person about uh bathroom graffiti and like stand up comedy and accessible art and like when you do things that are not for the audience for critical acclaim for the industry when you create art

[00:28:20] that isn't to make a money it does feel more pure um and it does feel more easily accessible and and i think the best songs i've ever written are like i'm not thinking about the audience they

[00:28:36] just pour out of me i'm not thinking about kind of making money off this song um it just pours out of me and i think um i think it's really fascinating to think about bathroom graffiti that way

[00:28:46] yeah for sure for sure yeah i'm glad to hear you say that as well k-link because that's recurring theme again with the guests i've had on is exactly that of yeah how do you sometimes

[00:28:58] tow the line of writing for yourself versus you know the perhaps a little voice in the back if you head that goes yeah but this is much hope now so i've got to think about this and i can

[00:29:07] imagine that's well i don't ever thought i'm curious to hear your answer that the answer would just be to let the music flow and just know know yourself enough to know when an idea is genuinely

[00:29:19] when becoming from you versus i'm trying to force something here yeah i think um i think it's interesting uh i think i've really grappled with that and gotten into a good flow when it comes to non-commonity music because it's always been how i've processed things when i journey

[00:29:37] all i'm journaling like free flow lyrics or um when i'm working through something whether it's a happy thing or a negative thing or anxiety or fear discomfort i and i pick up the guitar or

[00:29:51] sit down at the piano um i just i'm not thinking about an audience i'm not thinking about how that's i'm just pouring out how i'm feeling and then later on maybe i shape it a bit more into

[00:30:04] a more cohesive song um but what's interesting is grappling with that in terms of musical comedy because you have to be thinking about an audience in some regards you know that this

[00:30:17] is supposed to well-less it laughter so you're thinking about how to do that um but then at the end of the day in order to avoid the same pitfalls of like trying to make something for somebody else

[00:30:29] um you have to go back to well what do i think is funny what makes me laugh and i'm going to write that um but yeah i think it's an interesting process when it does become your job

[00:30:42] when it does become necessary that there there is money that you need to make from it and there is an audience who need to please and um just sort of being able to still throw that away and say

[00:30:54] i got here because i liked what i was making and other people responded to that so i have to like what i'm making and make sure that it feels like me yeah that makes way much sense and

[00:31:07] again the theme throughout this whole series is i think whenever an artist stops doing that you can tell yeah as soon as they fall in out of love with what they're doing whether it's a

[00:31:21] life performance whether it's a new up any single one album whatever yeah as soon as they're not enjoying it anymore you couldn't tell that it's just so transparent so yeah it's nice to

[00:31:31] hate still getting that balance for yourself yeah i think it's um it's it's a lifelong process of falling in and out of love with what you're doing right um especially if you if it is your job

[00:31:43] or if it's if it's your passion that becomes your job how to reach her into that passion yeah so do you find them like writing more serious songs kind of helps you almost

[00:31:53] take a break from it and then come back to it yeah i've always flip flop between the two i think i used to try and fit into a mold i used to believe the instruments at home and just

[00:32:04] do stand up comedy and just bright serious music and just like being musical theater you know i tried to not combine it all but i love genre-bending works of art and stuff that is in the

[00:32:14] cracks in between and um i find that i'm when i'm working on something that's more comedically driven i'm listening to a lot of podcasts about songwriting or i'm listening to a lot

[00:32:25] of albums um that are more serious um and then when i'm working on a more serious album and delving into something musically i'm like listening to comedy podcasts and i'm and i'm watching stand up

[00:32:35] and you know i like i need both but i i need to take a break from one or the other at some points too i find mostly the thing that helps me is um taking breaks between performing

[00:32:50] i like have to get back to the root of like the actual writing and when i'm performing it's hard to write during the day um and uh and also the the sound healing ceremonies have been a really

[00:33:01] lovely way to just like throw the audience away entirely and get back to like play and and just having fun improvising musically and um and it's it feels like the opposite of of getting on a stage

[00:33:16] a lot of the time yeah it's a whole cycle it's a flow and it's uh yeah it's a lifelong process i think yeah i can imagine so you want us again to stand up then quite early on when when was that for you

[00:33:31] oh man i i think it's probably like i've always loved stand up um yeah i've always listened to a lot of stand-up albums i think i i don't know if i'd say i ever really wanted to get into stand-up

[00:33:47] i think i just wanted to prove that i could be more than musical comedy because i think musical comedy is sort of looked down upon by by stand-up sometimes okay and now i realize that that's

[00:34:01] kind of out of a feeling of insecurity if they can't play a musical instrument or feeling like oh my god this person's doing so much more than i'm doing um but at the time it felt like oh i was this

[00:34:14] is woman showing up with a guitar and getting on stage and like taking time away from people doing stand-up and i felt like at some point i needed to yeah leave the instruments at home and prove

[00:34:26] to these people and to myself and to my own into caretis that i could just get up on stage and tell jokes but eventually it just sort of felt like i was cutting off my arms like i was just trying

[00:34:38] to mold my voice to sound like everybody else's and uh yes and my favorite thing to do is is songwriting and um and when i think of a funny joke it doesn't come to me as oh i can't

[00:34:52] wait to say that on stage into a microphone i go oh this is a song this is the chorus this is the first line you know it just says it's always a song to me yeah yeah well and it makes

[00:35:03] sense to lean in so that doesn't it like you say rather than yeah trying force yourself into a sort of pigeonhole and be like well i have to be in this mold yeah i always find

[00:35:14] that fascinating in any form of art you know um where people say that yeah like oh it's done this way as it says who yeah like says why why do we do that what and it's you know and i think

[00:35:26] guilty of the same as most people thinking that way but when you stop and look at it you go actually that doesn't make any sense like yeah you know and yeah i don't know if it's maybe just

[00:35:35] an internet thing as well like sort of social media and everything being good and bad like we get a bit more judgment or maybe it's just what you said earlier it's just insecurities

[00:35:44] and other people just kind of going no don't do that because it makes me look bad it could me it will maybe a bit of both you know yeah i've always felt that way about guitar a little bit

[00:35:54] to like you're supposed to play something this way and right um feeling insecure about trying to learn how to solo or do bar chords are not knowing about pedals and all the gear

[00:36:08] heads and all of that and and then i think about um like the way Johnny Mitchell played guitar was because she had polio as a kid and couldn't hold the guitar proper way and so she learned to

[00:36:20] play in this really cool way and we love her songs and yeah um and things don't have to be a particular way just because somebody said so no totally it again it's how genre is a ball and

[00:36:34] yeah exactly not to harp on too much about it but yeah the interview I listened to Esteva he brought out grunge as an example he's like because he was in like the 80s metal scene was writing

[00:36:43] with all these big bands he's like he was like yeah it's cool he's like yeah but then like Kurt Cobain comes out of nowhere and starts strumming calls and you can look at him and go he's not

[00:36:51] a very good guitar player or even that great singer but he had so much passion and so much drive and it's an it spoke to people and then and he was also hanging around with people like you know

[00:37:02] I'm a big nerd sort of like the 90s music particular like so like Alice and Alice and James one of my favorite bands you know the sort of pearl jam that kind of early grunge scene sang garden all these guys hanging around just doing weird stuff

[00:37:16] then it becomes popular and then you get a whole genre and that's just one of many many examples and you know I'm sure you see the same in comedy as well right like certain styles of of comedian

[00:37:26] like someone just comes out the blue with their own approach and then you probably get a dozen or so people sort of trying to copy that and it's like no no just do you all think about

[00:37:36] personing find their voice yeah and they find an audience that's awesome but don't worry about copying them just do your own thing yeah speaking of a musical comedy and a medium I met at

[00:37:49] a better one nice at a boneroo I was performing there they have like a comedy tent yeah and um and it's the only air condition tent at the festival so people go there to just

[00:38:04] like chill out because it gets really hot and um and later on in the evening pearl jam had been performing and Eddie Vetter came because a Gary shandling had just passed away and and and Judd Apatau were a really good friends with Gary shandling and they had found

[00:38:25] Judd had found all of these journals of of Gary's like just just like therapeutic journaling and comedic journaling and so Eddie like got his guitar and would sing this sort of like

[00:38:38] more therapeutic journaling and then Judd would tell some of the jokes from these journals and it was just there's a beautiful like that's musical comedy like um eulogy in a way to Gary shandling and it was

[00:38:52] so it was just so powerful it was really cool oh that's awesome yeah I really hope there's recording at this and what if I might try to look that up later because that's

[00:39:01] that's incredible yeah I wonder if I've never looked it up sens but yeah I hope so you know yeah some even if it's just a you know rubbish eye-fam recording or something

[00:39:11] it's better than nothing I mean that's that's incredible but yeah wow okay so you sort of just yeah decided one day I'm not gonna try and decode yourself yeah cut off your own arms

[00:39:23] but yeah great expression by the way love that yeah and just lean into it so I mean how did you find that initially was it sort of quite terrifying would you sort of notice people responding

[00:39:34] quite positively straight away um it just sort of felt more like a return to myself right um which was cool and yeah and I did notice the more I leaned into it the more successful

[00:39:49] I became actually oh it's been an interesting journey of like since um last year really when my stuff started to blow up insanely online of just I started to just lean into what I thought was funny

[00:40:07] and my favorite songs and oh it's so hard to put yourself out there on social media but just like posting more regularly and um it's been incredible I mean I think every songwriter's dream is

[00:40:19] to sing their songs in front of an audience and have the audience sing their lyrics with them and that has happened consistently for the first time to me since like um since my songs really

[00:40:31] blew up on social media and my off-road way run sold out and I just got back from my 10 day tour and it was like the one song at the end of the show is the song that really really blew up

[00:40:41] and usually people sing along to that one but this particular tour there were some shows where people were singing along to every song in the show and it was so cool and it was like just a real

[00:40:53] testament to like yeah when you can lean in enough to what makes you feel most authentically like you when it's your favorite songs and uh and and when you can lean into a little bit of the

[00:41:08] discomfort of performing and putting yourself out there and posting on social media that like there's something really powerful about sharing a vulnerable part of your soul and and people picking up on that and I think that's very true of what you were saying about

[00:41:25] you can tell when an artist has lost their passion or like yeah doesn't like what they're doing anymore of other that's like touring the same show for too long or um listening to what the

[00:41:35] label wants them to make or whatever but um I think I I'm proud that and I hope I never get to a point of being too tired of the show but um I'm proud that I feel like it's still a really vulnerable

[00:41:46] thing to do and I get a little of that old stage right back and get scared to to do that to show that part of me on stage and then to have that be so well received and to be sung with me

[00:41:57] with audiences it's just it's incredibly powerful it's so cool yeah again that's been a recurring theme for a lot of people I've spoken to is exactly that of having people in the audience react to what you're doing whether it's like you were saying earlier like sharing their stories

[00:42:14] that they can relate to or singing a lyric back or something and you're like whoa what yeah the thing that I've made is connected with another human that's awesome yeah it's so cool and like

[00:42:25] before I only um found that through laughter you know right I think it's interesting to do it was hard for me to do a set of just music without telling some jokes in between songs or

[00:42:37] without putting in a funny song because you can feel the audience if you're singing songs they've never heard before they're they're not singing along with you they don't know you you can still

[00:42:47] feel their reaction but it's not as visceral and loud as like a big break of laughter you know yeah but yeah it's funny the flip between the two and it's so cool to see people reacting

[00:43:02] like I had a couple people at this last two were say we want to get a tattoo of your show well like which line should we get wow which is nuts that's nuts yeah

[00:43:15] did you know what direction did you point them in um I decided to to give them the tattoo that I might get or would get which is the final line of the song that really blew up

[00:43:27] which is um a piece of graffiti that I photographed that says good luck out there human yeah that's a nice line yeah that makes sense yeah so felt tattooable yeah

[00:43:41] that's really cool I love that wow yeah I kind of imagine yeah that feeling what that must be like to sort of have somebody ask you something like that but you see it's so wild it's been such a funny journey

[00:43:58] fun and the end what I think is so cool about it is that it's not just my lyrics and my art it's found art it's things that people have written on bathroom walls which humans have been doing

[00:44:11] since the beginning of time like we have bathroom graffiti from Pompeii and like cave paintings and it's just a really human shared experience and so I think I'm glad that that's the first real

[00:44:24] piece of my art that is really really blown up in this way because it doesn't feel like it's just this sort of like ego driven oh look at look at my great songwriting you know it feels very

[00:44:36] universal and and human and and connective yeah I go outside like having sort of listened through your previous shows and like checking out the music I get that sense very much that that's just a

[00:44:47] thread like we were saying earlier like you just sort of pull on this is funny to me you know yeah making front of your friends bad choices in men or something or you know yeah the songs are

[00:44:58] that they just stood out to me or I was like that's very good like I could just tell by listening to your performance you're like you're having fun doing it there's a lot of everybody else is enjoying

[00:45:06] it yeah I was just having a conversation with a friend about how you can tell when like when you're listening to just audio you can tell when the singer is smiling and how cool that is

[00:45:17] how far you can tell you can tell when people are enjoying themselves and we love to listen to that yeah you absolutely can yeah so for that blows my mind again yeah just connect with somebody like

[00:45:27] that and think about it it is so I'm curious are you of a thinking about putting out the serious music unless you have already and I missed it no I am um I have a couple tracks on there

[00:45:41] that are more serious on my Spotify but I'm working on an album right now I'm working on two maybe three albums right now all right I just have a lot of backlog of yeah recording

[00:45:54] that I need to do but the main album I'm working on right now is called songs I wrote for other people's weddings and it is half half of the songs are songs I literally wrote for friends weddings

[00:46:07] I'm in my early 30s and that just you know all your friends get married when you're in early 30s and a lot of friends have asked me to write songs for them to walk down the aisle

[00:46:17] too or during ceremony or as like a speech and I'm really proud of those songs because I think it's hard to write a love song that doesn't sound super cliche for we've written so many

[00:46:31] over the course of humanity so it's been really cool to do to write those and during the course of writing a lot of these songs I was going through a breakup of a long-term relationship and

[00:46:43] the rest of the songs on the album are all grappling with that so I think it's like it is a more serious album about watching all of your friends sort of take this big step while

[00:46:57] your relationship is falling apart and and I think there are some maybe like slightly funny turns of phrase certainly I don't like to write serious music that is full of itself and can't

[00:47:12] sort of laugh at itself but it's not something I would ever perform at a comedy club and yeah it's very heart-felt and sad at times and also be the full and hopeful and I'm really

[00:47:24] excited to release that album whenever that may be hopefully towards the end of this here certainly before I get married another time okay I got released this album so yeah you gotta get you gotta

[00:47:36] get that out otherwise yeah like she okay yeah exactly this guy's the worst it's like no no I like that that's me that's a very country album right there yeah it's a very country thing to do

[00:47:51] it's like here's a sad breakup album but also super relatable like those things people go through and yeah I'd be very curious to hear that when it comes around I will send it your way please do please

[00:48:03] do yeah funny enough one of the last people I had almost an Americana artist and her first album was about getting divorced and like we talked about that by that going into those darker places but

[00:48:15] that's common right as much as like comedy is is something that is universal everyone loves to laughs of putting out music why not absolutely but also the other human experiences you know like

[00:48:27] you said yeah processing brief trauma whatever it may be I'm always here for that always here for a good song that can make you feel sad or tear up or something and just like it's beautiful it's

[00:48:38] cool like why not why not go for that yeah I think uh songwriting has always been very therapeutic for me and when I'm going through something hard it it pours out in song and yeah and and I'm listening

[00:48:50] to other artists grapple with something similar whether it's yeah a breakup or a death or something traumatic and I feel connected because they put that into their art and how like me and my

[00:49:06] I'll tell you all the time about how selfish of you to keep that feeling to yourself and not put it into it yeah that's so true that is so true yeah it's one of those weird like morbid things

[00:49:19] I think about like famous bands like it's on my mind because I'm seeing them this week but like the fruit fires is an obvious one yeah and like you know that when something that

[00:49:28] public and tragic happens every interview is you know basically like you know so what's the track what's the album what's the song that's gonna be out that thing and it's always nice I

[00:49:42] even did an episode on the few fires and my guest we were Chris we were talking about it and saying how like you admire an artist like leaning into that especially something so big right and like

[00:49:52] people who would know you probably think the same thing of like why does she not put that into a song and like and when you do it's like oh good you got out your system and yeah and also when

[00:50:01] it's something like I think grief and heart people of empathetic they want to be able to share that feeling with you and they know that they can because you're an artist you're putting your

[00:50:12] feelings out there and I think people just want to experience that you know collective grief with you and something just beautiful about that you know when you when you see that come out

[00:50:22] yeah I fully fully agree I think grief is and like the sort of more quote unquote negative emotions that people don't want to show that we want to put on a happy face and not you know

[00:50:36] sort of like never answer the question like how are you doing with like anything more than I'm fine right yeah where you put those feelings like is it just in talk therapy is it to your close

[00:50:47] friends I think it's in it's it's in your art or if you're not necessarily an artist like it's in your version of art whether that's like you know cooking or working out or any sort

[00:51:02] expression that you do just to work through those things but I think what's super powerful about art is that you're you're putting those feelings in there and then you're sharing that with

[00:51:10] other people so that they feel less alone so that they can work through that they end God it's so it's so connective and yeah it's powerful and and I love joking to my fiance about that

[00:51:22] itself to keep those feelings to yourself because um yeah because we don't like to we don't want to feel um we don't want to show people that we're weaker we're grappling with something or

[00:51:31] we're struggling and yet yeah it's so it's so powerful to share that yeah and funny enough those are usually the songs that do the best like the ones to sad songs you know the ones

[00:51:45] the heart break the like you'd say someone passing whenever it may be it's like that song the makes you go yes that's what I'm feeling yeah those are the ones that people go to

[00:51:55] because it's like yeah so you're absolutely right it's selfish to keep that in so yeah I look looking forward to hearing about the yeah the people coming to you once you put that music out there

[00:52:06] and going yes I went through this thank you Caitlin yeah we'll see if it's not bathroom graffiti yeah felt like yeah yeah it'll be like what's this what she doing no go back and back to the comedy

[00:52:22] oh well no I think it's cool and I think it's again genuinely brave to love one of explore those two sides of yourself and just put that out there so I genuinely wish you all the best

[00:52:31] with that that's going to be really interesting to see thank you very much I appreciate that and I'm just curious like what kind of musical influences are you taking in from that I mean I say

[00:52:40] country just as a throwing out there because I know you play guitar and you know that's the kind of themes but is it sort of just a mix of all sorts of genres what what are you listening to yeah

[00:52:49] god it's such a mix I was listening to Chapel Row and on my bike ride I love her um and let's see I mean I grew up with like Johnny Mitchell and Virginia Spectre and Sarah Borrellis and

[00:53:01] Ingrid Michaelson and Kate Nash and a lot of like solo singer songwriter women yeah um but I also like loved yeah the food fighters uh and Pearl Jam and I also loved like no one the whale

[00:53:20] and sort of like indie rock out fits of that era um yeah and yeah lately I've been listening to a lot of um the Ocatsman of both peck and uh and some musical theater albums and my fiancee's

[00:53:41] favorite band in the world is fish so I've gone to so many fish shows which is so not music that I ever would have listened to um had I not been forced to listen to it but like I think there's something

[00:53:55] to learn from every kind of music and um true and it's been really eye-opening in terms of like improvisation and how to play around with other people on stage in the moment um

[00:54:09] yeah I think the album that I'm working on is um probably oh I don't even know how to genre-fight it's like you know it's singer songwriter pop indie kind of vibes um but I don't know I guess

[00:54:25] I guess I just have to work on it more and put it out there but I feel really lucky with the people like it to collaborate with like um our drummer is um like the best drummer in New York City he just

[00:54:37] um his the musical that he drums in just one at Tony last night he's uh of course with Jason Robert Brown and um he's just incredibly talented and the best part about uh his drumming is that he's a

[00:54:51] really intuitive to what you're already hearing in your head even if you're a drummer um and we just have I just love collaborating with people we just have an incredible amount of people in New York

[00:55:02] and and just across the world to to work with that bring their own genres that they grew up on and bring a little taste of that to your music so awesome yeah I wanted to pull on that thread

[00:55:14] actually with collaboration because you mentioned it earlier with your fiance especially when it comes to writing comedy yeah how do you sort of find the balance of of that sort of in terms of like

[00:55:24] going with the flow and working together versus maybe having an idea in your head of like well this is the punchline this is the thing I'm working towards is it just sort of like good communication or

[00:55:34] maybe just letting go of certain ideas if something better comes along that kind of thing yeah I think um I think one of the hardest parts about collaborating is being able to say to someone I don't

[00:55:50] like that idea and not thinking and not offending them if you're able to sort of feel like now that's stupid I don't like that uh sure then uh hopefully there's like a good rapport of like I trust you

[00:56:02] and I think you're so talented and also I don't like that one idea and it doesn't mean that I don't like you um yeah and so and just having a similar um just similar sensibilities in the similar

[00:56:14] sense of humor I think it's really um if you can make each other laugh during the songwriting process then you know you're hitting on something really great for comedy and if you're able to just be like

[00:56:26] no no that's stupid and the other person just goes okay or they say you're idea stupid you go yeah you're right that that wasn't right I think there's a nice trust to there

[00:56:38] and to like to just be able to not be lazy about it I think I really hate lazy songwriting and um I really love collaborating with people that won't just be like well that rhyme works

[00:56:53] or that thing works so let's just move on of when we want to dig into something more and say I don't know that that's not quite right and and spend hours on that one thing

[00:57:04] and fix it um I really love that as well wow okay that makes sense yeah so I've really making sure that it's the best it can be in each aspect yeah and it's hard I mean especially like

[00:57:17] you want a song to pour out of you uh of course every time but there's gonna be a little little moments that aren't quite right that you do have to wrestle with for a while I just

[00:57:28] was remembering in the Beatles documentary there was a moment where with Paul McCartney talking to Dave Grohl and they're they're working on a song together and Dave Grohl says um man I wish

[00:57:40] it was always this easy and Paul McCartney says it is and I just I love that so much because of course it's always easy for Paul McCartney of course but also he's right like it is always

[00:57:55] this easy like it's songwriting it's so much fun and the hardest it's ever gonna get is like when you're just trying to fix one little moment and you have to spend more time on it

[00:58:06] and you need to take a moment away when you don't really want to eat or think about time and and then return to it and fix it later but it's still just the most fun thing in the world

[00:58:15] yeah no it definitely is I totally agree um yeah again the more I speak to people about it as a subject I just think it's fascinating from a very selfish point of view also learning more

[00:58:26] about writing songs so I'm just like picking all these things off every guest I get it's brilliant totally yeah it's really nice to hear that as well especially from yeah your perspective

[00:58:36] of writing comedy as well and music it just letting it flow and not putting too much pressure on because I think on on the surface you could look at it and go that's a lot to juggle

[00:58:46] but if you're just letting it happen in the best possible way I'm working with people that want the best out of it it makes total sense yeah there's this uh I forget the phrase exactly

[00:58:59] in some like sound healing ceremony circles but it's interesting to think about in terms of like letting it flow yeah the phrasing of it is basically like like like a song came to you or

[00:59:12] like you're a conduit for um yeah for a song to come through your vessel and uh it's really interesting to think about when I often call like a song like that of it just my brain vomited

[00:59:28] you know it just fell out of me um it's really cool when that happens it's so it really feels like it's outside of you and the song is just itching to get out yeah yeah and you're the

[00:59:40] vessel for it but also sometimes it's like all right I had a I have a prompter I need to write a commercial jingle for this brand or you know whatever it is you're doing and you have to force it

[00:59:52] a little bit and then there's you know there's the in between where an idea falls out of your brain but um it's just a snippet it's just a verse and you kind of have to like tinker with the rest

[01:00:04] yeah it's all it's all just a process yeah and just I guess just banking some of those ideas as you go as well like if you can't get something to happen now that's fine don't panic just

[01:00:15] yeah but it's a one-sided now yeah I think one of my favorite techniques for all of that is I try and write like a as page of like stream of consciousness lyrics every day

[01:00:29] right because I think a lot of people just will rely on when inspiration strikes yes and while that is beautiful especially when it's your job that's not always possible um and sometimes inspiration doesn't strike for years and so if you have a journal full of stream

[01:00:50] of consciousness lyrics to look through when your when inspiration has struck or you sit down you say I'm gonna write a song right now it just gives you this like this muscle that you

[01:01:01] are practicing every day and this whole journal full of lyrics to to piece through especially when inspiration strikes and then stops which is also interesting experience when you're like I have this idea and then suddenly you get frustrated and you're like ah should I give up

[01:01:14] should I keep forcing it should I go what's happening then you have a whole whole journal and and you've been yeah working on this muscle every day to like to let that continue rather than like having a barrier that is just gonna stop me in your tracks

[01:01:28] that's fascinating I'm like if that go myself you know that sounds really interesting it's good it's just a page and you're not editing and you know it's just a you know I don't look at a lot

[01:01:38] of these journals ever again but I actually just that for the day and it helps me so interesting I really appreciate that thank you well I want to be conscious of your time

[01:01:48] I don't know how much you've you've got to spare today yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but I just I guess if I sort of final wrap up question is I was like to throw it back to the

[01:01:56] guest and say was there anything else you wanted to talk about with this subject maybe some of we haven't covered already or just a message you want to give out to the audience for anyone listening maybe even considering doing something similar themselves hmm good question I think

[01:02:12] a good message is like everyone can write a song everyone can write a good song and um I guess one thing that we hadn't talked about is like when people feel a little frustrated

[01:02:24] with songwriting they'll they'll read a lot of books or they'll take a course or yes look up techniques and like I did that for a while you know I um I went to Berkeley College of Music for a summer

[01:02:36] songwriting program and I learned a lot about different techniques like like coloring is a really interesting technique it's a country music technique yeah where you write a chorus and then if there's a way to change the meaning of the chorus not change the words but change the context

[01:02:55] in the meaning through the verses and you right so like um like it's the course was like you're so far away and the verses are about a long distance relationship and then at the end it's like oh actually you're physically together but they're still emotionally far away hmm

[01:03:12] so like that's a good technique um there's a lot of of songwriting techniques that you can like look up in practice and I think it will make you a better songwriter at the end of the day but also

[01:03:22] like I think it's all innately within us it's we did it as kids yeah we we do it while we're talking to our pets we do it while we're cooking it is something that is a very human to just make up a

[01:03:34] little jingle and um I think uh it's it's worth just uh trusting in yourself and your own voice and and playing and like getting back to that child like sense of wonder and play is so

[01:03:48] liberating and fun and I encourage every listener to just give it a go. That's beautiful I absolutely love that thank you so much so yeah to take us home then Caitlin if they don't already know

[01:04:01] work and the good people find you. My handle is the Caitlyn Cook, Caitlyn spelled the Irish way and that's on that's my website that's all my social media platforms and then um my name is just

[01:04:17] Caitlyn Cook and you can find me on Spotify or Apple Music or band all the all the streaming areas. Nice yeah awesome I'll be putting links in the show notes as usual for all of that so if anyone's

[01:04:30] curious they can do that and if they're heading up to Edinburgh for the French festival they can come and catch you there as well. Yes I will be uh doing my bathroom graffiti musical which is

[01:04:38] called The Writing on the Stahl um at the Pleasence at French um August 14th through the 25th and then I have four or five shows in London right after that um are almost sold out so oh um if you are

[01:04:53] in London and want to see the show get some tickets quickly. Awesome really well thank you so much again I'll put links in everyone can go and check that out. Sounds good. Thank you very much for coming on.

[01:05:03] Thanks for having me. And there we have it thank you so much Caitlyn for coming onto the podcast and sharing your love of songwriting. If you'd like to check out more of Caitlyn stuff please be sure

[01:05:15] to head to the links in the show notes where you can check out her website, rock coming tour dates, where you can stream her performances and so much more it really is worth checking out. I think she's

[01:05:25] a very intelligent, very funny person someone who's future projects I will watch with keen interest so make sure you go and give her a follow and check out her stuff as I said links are in the show notes.

[01:05:37] Thank you so much for listening to this episode if you'd like to help the podcast in its journey of discovery for the world of pop culture then please consider doing a few simple things.

[01:05:48] First and foremost just tell somebody I already don't mind how you go about doing that or indeed who you tell provided that of course they're likely to listen I mean if you tell someone

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[01:06:29] episodes so make sure you go and check those out. You can also leave me a lovely five star review on your favorite podcast or donate to the podcast via the different donation pages that are linked

[01:06:40] in the show notes anything you can give towards the podcast would be greatly appreciated but there is of course no obligation and just before I sign off I'd like to give a quick shout out

[01:06:50] to two of my favorite people in the podcasting space. Sarah Butterie and MJ Smith from Let's Jaws Ruminate and Let's Party with Marty they were good enough to have me back on their show let's

[01:07:00] Jaws from in it and we talked about the 2000 and 8 sci-fi classic Clover Field. It was an absolute delight to be back on the show and close out their movie monster season. I've left

[01:07:11] links in the show notes we can go and check that out their podcast is absolutely brilliant and I'm not just saying that because I may have a hand in the jingle but on a serious note it is a wonderful

[01:07:21] podcast I really love speaking with those guys so again links from the show notes we can go and check that out. Thank you once again for listening to this episode I will be back next week with my final

[01:07:31] guest from my songwriting season it's one that you really don't want to miss so make sure that you are here for that by subscribing following whatever you have to do so you do not miss out on future episodes

[01:07:42] of the podcast and speaking of future episodes of the podcast I have some very exciting announcements all of which will be revealed in the coming weeks all I will say for now is the in the next few

[01:07:54] weeks I'll be putting out some episodes that involve my very first in-person interviews. Needless to say I'm incredibly excited and I cannot wait to get stuck in and share the results with you so

[01:08:05] make sure that you stick around for that until then all that's left to say is thanks again for listening take good care of yourselves have a great week go and check out Caitlyn's work and I'll meet

[01:08:15] you right back here for the final episode of the songwriting season next week see you then