Song Writing with Jo Quail

[00:00:14] Hello and welcome to Fandomentals, the podcast that explores pop culture, one conversation at a time. I am your host, Harley. Every episode, I interview different people from around the world to discuss a variety of topics within the world of pop culture. Thanks for joining

[00:00:30] me on this journey and I hope you enjoy the episode. Hello and welcome back to Fandomentals and thank you for joining me for the very first season of 2024. For this season, I'm exploring Song Writing. Each episode I will be joined by a guest

[00:00:53] to explore their unique perspective and approach to this wonderful creative art form. And up first is the progressive cellist, Jo Quail. Jo's approach to this instrument is unlike anything I'd ever seen before and while I saw

[00:01:09] her perform live a few months ago, I just had to reach out and find out more about her journey with the cello and how she ended up constructing songs in the way that she does.

[00:01:19] Her answers were as insightful as they were passionate and I think you guys are going to really enjoy this conversation. So with all that said, let's just get to it. This is Song Writing

[00:01:32] with Jo Quail. Hello Jo and welcome to the Fandomentals podcast. Thank you very much for chatting with me. No thank you. It's absolutely pleasure to have you on and for a series, the first series

[00:01:51] I'm doing technically ever. What basically fill you in, I have sort of done a series before about sitcoms that just sort of accidentally happened one summer. Right. But this is the first time

[00:02:02] I'm properly doing it. And I couldn't think of a better subject than one that my listeners will know. I'm very passionate about which is music and of course the myth that is songwriting,

[00:02:14] how do people write songs and how do you approach it in so many different ways? To fill the audience in, I've had the privilege of watching you perform live a few weeks ago now. And I was just

[00:02:24] absolutely blown away by what I saw. I had thought to myself, I have to ask this person how they do this and what their approaches and I just have a ton of questions. So to kick us off,

[00:02:35] I just want to start Joe, I'm really curious. What was the first song you ever wrote? Well, I mean this, this, this goes back a very long way. Okay so I mean I've been

[00:02:49] composing in inverted commas forever because I had a very, it was very lucky with the music educational, how does it as a child and a young person and big, it's just called,

[00:03:02] plays called the Center for Young Musicians and a big chunk of that was to do with improvisation and composition. So I can remember being playing my first composition, which was a recorder trio at in the personal room. I think I was about 10 something like that, 9 or 10. But obviously,

[00:03:25] I mean you're talking probably having seen the concert recently. That's a very different kettle of fish. So in that sense I've been writing music such as the like that did I perform for you and probably since about 2010 something like that. I mean I've always been writing

[00:03:45] the ways always to. Yeah, well okay so I mean quite a young age to even be thinking about composition. That's that's pretty impressive. Yes but you see it's all how things are framed up isn't it?

[00:03:58] Because at the age of 8, 9, 10 is not called composition or it certainly wasn't when I was with this amazing center. It was it was called general musicianship and so that's very different. So there's no expectation from the children's side of things. It's a complete

[00:04:19] it's freedom. It's basically experimentation. It's playground. There's boxes full of equipment and precautions. I've shown you know beat now pop things of course we will play cello of our lint as well. And so the emphasis was on creativity and on exploration and having fun.

[00:04:39] But none of that was set out as a series of agendas. It was just the way that the music was taught by these amazing people you see. So it was very, very likely. Yeah. Yeah, no I bet.

[00:04:52] I mean I had a little bit of that school as it closest I could relate is having drum lessons when I was 10 and it was a lot of fun and that kind of got me kickstarted on like oh, I like music.

[00:05:03] I think and yeah, discovered the guitar years later and that was me but yeah I think I'm interested in and that is you're already learning even like you say you won't think of it as necessary

[00:05:13] composition. It's learning to put the pieces together of music in order to create a song at quite a young age. I think that's some easy and quite a fundamental understanding at young age.

[00:05:24] Oh, this is how songs work. We have to work together. I do this. You do that and there you go. We're figuring this out. Yeah exactly. That's exactly it and that's something that can be

[00:05:35] taught or encouraged in people even actually in El remember when my daughter was at nursery and clapping games. That's a simply form of communication in music. Yeah and that's basic principles of how song crafting or composition as poses is built. It's the relationship of one or two parts

[00:06:00] and how they move and interact or do not interact and that's your composition really, isn't it? I suppose. It is. Yeah yeah so was that always the case on the on cello for you

[00:06:13] then was that you're sort of go to instrument. Yeah, because I started playing the cello when I was five so I should just point out here it's not a sound. I realised that I'm extremely extremely

[00:06:25] privileged and extremely lucky but all of this music education that whole lot was offered for free by the government at the time. Yeah, exactly. Unfortunately it's not free anymore for people. It's

[00:06:37] on a fee paying basis now but there were loads of us. It was offered to all in a London primary school kids at the time. So I feel every single day that I play the cello, I feel blessed and lucky

[00:06:49] you know so I just put that in case you're listening to thinking that you know I'm some stuff that person that's come from a privileged household that isn't the case. I did come from a

[00:06:59] supportive household however but yeah cello is well it's all right playing the cello there are lots of us lots of children learning lots of people playing the cello so from right from the start

[00:07:10] they would farm off a big section of cellists because there was too many for a street orchestra so it would be a kind of revolving thing with it to farm off say 10 of us and we play cello on

[00:07:23] ensemble music so right from the start I was used to hearing the sound of multiple cellos you know I don't see this was years before but you know pop-lip to cure all the 12 cello of the

[00:07:33] Berlin Phil we're doing that thing or anything like that we were doing this right from the start and so in a way I think probably that's one of the reasons why I started first of all doing

[00:07:44] what I do because also used to that sound very familiar and comforting sounds yeah well yeah exactly it comes naturally to you and then the idea of building a song with that instrument I think

[00:07:57] it's perhaps the uninitiated like myself I got to admit it's not something I would necessarily think of but then that's not my background you know I think okay how do you build an entire song

[00:08:07] which is just the cello my brain goes oh it's an orchestral piece but then as I've learned watching people like you and you mentioned like a pocket lip so in guys like that it's like oh no

[00:08:17] it's was if you experiment enough with it and play around anything's possible within the realm with music so yeah what was that moment for you then I guess you say 2010 was it that sort of

[00:08:28] paired you just started gathering ideas and thinking you know I'm just going to give this a go yeah around then I mean we I do you can you can I have to organize my thoughts here a bit

[00:08:41] yeah you can so so what I do is I use a loop station I'll see 600 L a and I record over the top so that's fine now you can do that within acoustic cello it's no problem and you can get a lot of

[00:08:53] there's on naturally on a cello there's an enormous number of what we call extended techniques or different techniques anyway that will produce quite different tombs and sounds and we have an enormous

[00:09:02] range so therefore you know we've got more than a four oxyve where we'll five oxyve more than that range on the instrument so we've got all parts cover whole orchestral thing is covered pretty much

[00:09:14] when you add into that the possibilities with effects so I do all of my sound modelling using the 1000 boss boss pedal um you start adding even the simplest thing like delay or reverb

[00:09:27] then suddenly a whole spectrum opens and then if you go further down the line so I've always been into metal as sort of broad you know genre and so you start to experiment with with drives or

[00:09:39] distortions or you know other bits and pieces even even phases and things like that and suddenly with blending that with extended chose techniques you can create some really really avant-garde sounds

[00:09:52] and then you start to be able to craft a composition or a song I mean as we say song but obviously I don't see actually live so I just does just make pieces but then you start to be able to get

[00:10:08] tombs or diversification in there and some interesting textures and things and then it begins to to move and to have shape and if you like musical musical arc or you know composition and

[00:10:20] integrity rather than just kind of layer layer layer layer layer you know yeah no that's that's something that really jumped out to me actually while I was watching you for the first time was

[00:10:31] I understood the technical like what you were doing as you say with a loop station it's a I think it's something that I must admit I just did my or anyone doing because

[00:10:41] I'm somebody that just fits into a band and that I can get my head around that but the idea of building a layer and doing it that many times live I'm always impressed by that skill so first of all

[00:10:51] was okay brilliant and then what you just said it was what stood out to me was it wasn't just that you were building a science gap or something really big and immersive that alone was amazing

[00:11:01] but it was it was hearing that arc and that journey and and that's again why I wanted to speak to you because I was like oh I can see what she's doing here she's building a story and to me that's

[00:11:11] what a song is the song is taking you on a journey it can take many many forms it doesn't I think it doesn't really matter if you're a singer or not I mean funny enough the next guest I've got

[00:11:20] on right pretty much just instrumental stuff and has the same principle in mind so yeah I want to go back though so this idea of taking all of these things and basically you're speaking my language

[00:11:35] joke is I'm sat here on an anonymous t-shirt so I'm a metal head through and through the idea though of taking the things that I'm very familiar with what you just mentioned all of those effects

[00:11:45] may have literally kicking a bag full of guitar pedals as we speak but putting that onto a classical instrument I'm fascinated with where you got that idea from like what just made you think

[00:11:58] I'm going to try this honestly I don't know I mean I didn't wake up one morning and think I must get an overdrive pedal you know yeah yeah yeah so my husband is guitarist

[00:12:17] and I mean you know being in but when I say metal I mean I'm a little bit old school with that as well so I mean you know you know just priests and I made and was even rats you know and into this kind of like

[00:12:31] decent hair metal or whatever they would call it that sort of side so that's a sound that I love so it was a very natural thing basically just to turn on a distortion or you know I mean obviously

[00:12:43] that's the first thing that you probably do anyway when you've got yourself a multi-effects after you've gone crazy with your delays you then just try distortion and see what happens you know but that that that that that music is very very inspiring to me and that kind of

[00:13:00] the the power that was available at that time given that people weren't necessarily detuned left right and centre you know I mean it would think things were largely in E for quite a long time

[00:13:11] you know yeah and just so it's this this sound of like the dual guitars of of priest or maiden some of the production sounds of well I mean definitely it is a good example really but some

[00:13:26] of the way the vocals are layered and similarly with James addiction actually James addiction was very inspirational for me and you know I can come back to that later if you want but

[00:13:36] obviously but those so those sounds so to me it was not an unnatural thing to try to do that but I already aligned myself with the fact that I was not likely to be a classical you know

[00:13:50] I was not going to be a concerto girl so so sure you know but to be honest with you it took quite a long time before I managed to marry up everything that I did in the classical world with my

[00:14:00] love of metal and now I think you'll find probably that's quite a common story amongst quite a lot of musicians but at the time it wasn't actually that's straightforward or particularly common

[00:14:13] so you know it's worked to me quite a long time to to a supposed be be brave enough and funny enough now it's taken equal length of time for me to be brave enough to play classical music in

[00:14:26] a metal setting which I've done quite a few times in most recently I did it you know did you go to the cult of Luna festival at the forum in Kansas town? I did not know so I

[00:14:38] performed a concert there but I said to them it was just before me the EU turn the John Gondos so I said to them I don't want to play a normal gig but I will play you an acoustic cellar

[00:14:49] aside so and they said all right then so I did so I played Bach and I played some pieces of my own two a metal crowd in the environment of a metal festival and it worked really really well so but that

[00:15:01] took me a long time to to feel that I had the wherewithal to bring that to that kind of stage so it's been a real sort of just across across a cross fade it's across fade on both sides that's

[00:15:16] what that's what it is really that was a bit that's a bit sorry and it wasn't really answering right so this is a podcast there is no such thing as too long amounts it's you know it's only

[00:15:27] a problem if you stop talking it's a lot to unpack there and this is something that I have a feeling is going to become a running theme in this series is this idea of cross blending different

[00:15:43] sounds and genres right because I find listening to a lot of my favorite artists I was listening to interview with one of my favorite musicians ever yesterday so I called Marcher Monthing so marketing your diary is folks this is going to be one of many references that man's

[00:16:00] getting across the series until I drag him onto this podcast thinking and screaming there I've said but he's an immersive thing lately so he's you know Creed Older Brothers famous for doing these

[00:16:10] big heavy ballers and anthems the guy loves Frank Sinatra and I listen to him talking about yeah and I've watched him do a live performance of Frank Sinatra songs that was incredible and hearing him recently talking to interview and just saying about basically this idea of exploring

[00:16:26] genres and that can happen at any point in your life and it's exactly what you're talking about it's about having that bravery as an artist to say okay this isn't what I'm known for this isn't

[00:16:35] what people in my I guess field or scene or whatever you want to call it are necessarily known for but I've really liked this and I just want to take a swing and have a go and just having that

[00:16:48] bravery it is bravery absolutely to just try it you know and have a go and you're absolutely right it does take guts to do that but the fascinating thing as I think is when you do that

[00:17:00] I think you're always guaranteed to find at least one person in the audience will go oh oh look I like this okay I see what you're doing and then you're off your off on a journey

[00:17:10] hundred percent I mean I think it takes quite a long time as well this is the benefit of having having done it for one being around the block of few times but I do not define myself

[00:17:23] so this makes life very difficult for obviously booking agents promoters people like that but equally my audiences they do not define the majority of them do not define the genres that they are into they're into music now it might be that they are particularly into metal or they're

[00:17:40] experimental avant-garde or drone or do metal something whatever but the bits in my experiences it in my concerts there will be an extraordinary range if you like of people there I've put a lot of the better word for all sorts of things you know into the goth

[00:17:59] as well you know all sorts of different genres that you might kind of identify or think of as a sort of a holding pen for people none of us so neither the performer nor the audience

[00:18:13] are defined in that way so the next the question these days now is how or the promoters of booking agents gonna work with that because it may be the same very very different but

[00:18:24] that is the way I think that the markets are moving so I wouldn't be surprised if you find that you have a lot of artists that you talk to who is even so far as to say that we don't even

[00:18:36] talk I mean I certainly don't talk about cross genre anymore and I certainly don't talk about classical crossover because it's not that but that is that was a convenient when we when life was much more simpler and people were working in eight bit you know then

[00:18:54] we could have these types of genres we can't do that now and that's a good thing so yes I mean said so to Mike and Frank Sinarcha yeah absolutely I mean of course that would make sense you

[00:19:08] know give it a go you must make available to yourself as wider palette of music as possible because only then can you I think form an opinion if you don't like it fine but at least listen

[00:19:23] yeah I completely agree and it's something I've been on a bit of a journey myself in the last couple years especially doing their shows reminded me of an all-air as a life in music

[00:19:33] especially you're so right it's had you get something new well it's people picking out lots of different ingredients from lots of different areas you know they you have to another what then you get something new and you're right that the problem we get when you bring in essentially

[00:19:52] marketing right and selling it to an audience it's maybe it's an esoteric even maybe it's something we should just do away with entirely I don't know but it is that for straighting

[00:20:02] discussion you're right of going well what is it well it's a bit of this and it's a bit of fairness it and before you know it you're hand up with so many different sub-short I mean

[00:20:11] metals are great example you say oh heavy metal music and I as someone who loves it I go okay but what does that mean is it fresh metals it's be metals it do metal is it you know and

[00:20:21] you can go on and on and you can do that with every genre of music right exactly if you to remind us it's me I like jazz okay what kind of jazz I know and we can have a three-hour

[00:20:30] discussion about that and but then you're not any closer to understanding it because really the answer is just going listen to it which is as what is it involves a cello and it involves some delay

[00:20:42] in distortion go and listen to it okay all right you know if say the doctor's example John got me know what was John gone do I say he plays an acoustic guitar and he does a lot of

[00:20:51] interesting things with tunings go and listen to it because I couldn't tell you it couldn't say always folk or he's country or he's pop or is it there's none of those things you know and

[00:21:02] and I get that goes for so many artists these days you're absolutely right if you say what are they some I don't know music yeah they play an instrument they sing well they don't sing

[00:21:11] that's about as much as I can tell yeah yeah it's fascinating isn't it it's I call it box thinking I think it's a very understandable human thing where there's so much stuff in the world

[00:21:24] particularly where it's music film or whatever and I think our brains almost want to assess okay what am I getting into is it worth my time but I didn't personally I tried to shut

[00:21:36] that thought I wrote a lot more now and just go I'm just going to go and experience it and I'll know quite quickly whether I like it or not yeah yeah you see this this is this is one

[00:21:46] of the character beautiful character traits of the metal audience as the kind of broad genre is the people are very very willing to listen to give something a listen and then to form an

[00:22:01] opinion and I think probably it's it's a less kind of disposable sort of mentality than maybe some of the other areas I don't I don't know I mean I'm not very up in you know current say

[00:22:18] pop as a broad genre so I don't know how to fletting an appearance artist tend to make I mean obviously there's artists which are very established great song writers in there but

[00:22:29] I know that for the metal audience it's I think they will they I know this for fact because I've experienced it at concerts but they will they will listen and they will very often

[00:22:41] you know have have written for a second go if it's not quite if it didn't quite resonate the first time around or what have you been doing it always willing to to listen and that's the

[00:22:54] greatest compliment that anybody can pay any artist really I think yes absolutely I think a friend of mine I was talking to him about this about this style of music and he kind of put it this way

[00:23:06] he he thought of it as like because it's sort of like a fringe thing even though it's not even though you could like any form of music if you like it chances are you will find thousands of people

[00:23:19] who feel the same way just go to a festival or a concert there there are you know your people essentially but because these things aren't necessarily popular or in the mainstream if you will

[00:23:32] I think it does create almost like a psychology of and I resonate with this myself and I'm I wonder what you feel Joe of like just be it finnier could little bit like an outsider because of it

[00:23:42] but then you can turn that around and as accurately as you say you get what I think you can go ways with it you can either become more open minded I think well okay this person's on the fringe

[00:23:52] like me I'm just gonna give this a chance all he become bitter and jaded in the gate that's kind of one of the two and you get that in any community frankly yeah yeah I think yes I mean I definitely agree

[00:24:07] with you from my own personal experience opinion of my own music if you like that yes I'm definitely on the periphery of something and I will always be that way and that's absolutely fine you know

[00:24:23] unless suddenly there's some crazy move for you know solo electric acoustic cello players I can't imagine it but point is I operate not in the mainstream and they're cool

[00:24:40] so when I turn if I'm touring as a support actor if I'm doing co-headline to the one of it is it's quite an unusual concept basically just because it's not likely to you know it's

[00:24:52] I'm not a band I'm not doing what people normally expect to see nonetheless quite often I'm playing these quite big stages quite a big festival's metal festivals and things I get commissioned by festivals for compositions and these people are looking to explore for example road bone festival you

[00:25:09] wanted to explore where classical music meets heavy music and so they commissioned the cartographer or commissioned a piece I wrote the cartographer and that was huge so I wrote for eight chombones and piano two folk lists two percussionists and obviously me and violinist and

[00:25:27] and we performed that premiered in Tilburg at 01-3 for road bone last year year before last now and the room was packed full of road bone audiences and I was basically playing performing a piece of pretty avant-garde contemporary music in this metal festival and

[00:25:46] people loved it you know and that's what I'm saying about these audiences they they they they up for this they're also up for things which are not out of the box or people who are in

[00:25:58] on the edge of things and the periphery and and it means a lot I think that they feel quite sometimes quite invested and that's how I feel with the audience of the particular people who

[00:26:09] very very close who come with me you know along with and these these people are part of the whole thing as well and that's it there's almost like a community that's built around the music it's really interesting it really really is you're absolutely right and

[00:26:27] yeah I think a big thing as well is if you kind of feel like you're on the periphery as you say then something like music becomes that much more important right it's something you identify with

[00:26:40] it's something that I believe reaches your soul and like touches you deeply so I think from an audience point of view when you're watching somebody and you can tell that they feel that

[00:26:50] way about what they're doing it is just like this connection of just like oh I see you I see what's going on here and yeah that's something I want us to touch upon with you as I

[00:27:00] notice with you and with John and hopefully I'll get to talk to him a bit later about this as well is I could see when an artist is really connected to the music and what they're doing and

[00:27:12] that's something that's allowed to me Jerry actually I was watching here it's like not only could I see what you were doing on a technical level which was really impressive but I could say oh she's

[00:27:20] embracing this and is feeling this musical journey so is that something that's really important to you then when it comes to writing and performing these songs being connected with it yeah yeah 100% because it means very physical activity to play the cell out anyway and when and when

[00:27:34] I tell people to eat if you're playing an acoustic cell out the same you whole body play is the instruments you know not just your arms and your you know you're I mean for example okay so

[00:27:47] so when I work with a student if they're first starting out we think a lot about our pelvis and our hips our legs are backs when we're sitting you know where our feet even dejaer all these

[00:27:58] things do you think about when we're playing and then the weight of the body the weight of the arms so you have all of this things that you think about when you go to the electric cell then because

[00:28:06] I play standing up so part part of that reason is that obviously for operating the pedals it's much easier but also I feel it's easier to handle like a health-fest for example I can take

[00:28:18] the temples to be standing up easier than if I'm sitting down must just all there was to it so but what it means is that this is a very physical experience to play this to play this instrument

[00:28:31] and to play these pieces and as such it's almost like a dance I can't really describe it any better but but every part of the body every fiber of the being is playing those notes is not just

[00:28:47] the hand on the thing it's the whole everything and the story is being told and it's almost like when I play I am both present and wholly not present in the in the sense of

[00:29:05] that you're aware it's a time time, time operates in two ways of very fast and very slow at the same time and you are there very there very connected very well yet at the same time you're also above

[00:29:19] things and looking down is very very strange experience but that all goes into the performance and it's not like a hat you can put on or an outfit it just happens you go to the stage

[00:29:30] and it's like the walls fall away and everything falls away and there is no boundary and no barrier and just you and the music and the audience and this is this exchange of energies and that's

[00:29:40] hat that's performance to me yeah it's really powerful and I've got to say it really comes through on the last one like performance and I don't think it's something you can fake either. No no no

[00:29:52] it's the I believe you're right I believe you're right yeah again I believe this is a big thing of why if you can get into a community not just metalheads I will say there's any fringe community

[00:30:04] with some sort of music you get fans for life because again I think the music means so much more to people than when it's just disposable it's on the radio yeah this was a bit of fun

[00:30:17] you know yeah it's nice and choreographed it's all good and listen I'm not saying it's anything wrong with that. No no this thing of course if you enjoy that go for it but there is something different

[00:30:26] when you go and you watch a performer and you say oh this is personal what they're doing is personal and they're letting me in and on that I appreciate that I'm gonna follow this and see where this goes

[00:30:37] because it's yeah it's a really important thing and it's really interesting to hear you say that as well because I guess from the outside looking in you could watch someone like yourself and think

[00:30:47] there's a lot that she's doing on a technical level you know you're playing a very challenging instrument be you tap in various pedals and thinking okay now I add this effect now I do this

[00:30:58] but to do all of that and then have the ability to just also remember to breathe and connect with what you're doing it's very impressive that's to be said I think most of us myself

[00:31:10] including it would just be panicing. Oh thank you Harley yeah so I don't know remembering to breathe is you know fairly fairly used right now what you mean that I mean that's why I talk about the

[00:31:23] jaw because quite often people yeah and you know they're jaw is tense and I remember I had a great teacher once who would encourage practice with the most incredibly stupid facial expression but I know why because if you're pulling these faces you cannot have tension in the jaw

[00:31:41] you see and then you have to remove that tension around the top of the face and into the top of the neck if that tension's gone chances are you're not gonna build it or at least not build it as much

[00:31:51] anywhere else in the body yes very interesting. No it makes total sense actually yes is yeah it's something like it taught a lot in lessons with both vocals and guitar is exactly what you're talking about being that awareness yeah it's true it's very true especially when knows

[00:32:10] kick in yeah your body just picks and random airing goes I'm gonna hold all the tension here yeah so and and that's not gonna help you is it if you're trying to get across the energy

[00:32:20] in the performance of what you're doing for sure. So right so right. So I mean I want to kind of go back a little bit something you said towards the start and I think it plays into what you said

[00:32:31] as well about the technical side of this like how you've discovered this and that's the element of play in music. So I want to know is that where you start with or is that the mentality

[00:32:43] rather that you start with when it comes to composing a new piece of music? Is it just I'm gonna play an experiment and just see what happens? Yes yes and no I mean there's a couple of ways

[00:32:54] that I start off in writing so sometimes I will be doing normal practice like yeah it will fail, piety or whatever you know just a simple scale even you know nothing dramatic

[00:33:09] and something will happen I'll be quite often I practice when I'm doing that kind of practice I do it without with the television on silence so that my conscious brain is not interfering with

[00:33:21] like what the physical body is doing and that's quite I find that's a good way to get around it because you know as soon as your mind focuses in so soon as your mind says to you I've got a major

[00:33:34] 9th in a minute shift you know then you will never ever hit it ever in really years but one who's not thinking about it then you'll always hit it so there's to find that quite useful

[00:33:43] anyway so I'm playing away and then sometimes something I would do something which is not what I had fully intended to do and that could become the DNA of a new piece so whether it's a

[00:33:53] a musical phrase or something like that other times it will be that I do I've got one of my sounds that I've made a couple of times this has happened for example I've I've built

[00:34:03] some percussion sounds which are intended to be hit or tapped progressively and I've both them rare pavilion is an example for this so the starting sound in this piece called rare pavilion is

[00:34:13] a very very strange broken sound is actually what I'm it's one of the kick drums I made that I've bowed by accident and because the the shape of the EQ and the processing the signal

[00:34:26] chain is so peculiar that the sound broke immediately and then and then so kept thinking flicking in and out of focus and so that became a piece you know so those so yes in in a sense

[00:34:40] it's that kind of thing just experimenting um other times if I've got phrase that I like it's a piece I'm currently working on as a phrase can take years hardly to be honest with you

[00:34:50] but I have a phrase that I like and I just keep playing it eventually like like a you just go around around around a tiny flap a tangent and then you've got somewhere else with it but that

[00:35:01] can take a very long time but with the cart I'll talk with for example that again with a piece of poetry that I wrote five line piece of prose and then with this poem I then

[00:35:13] made a grid system so that the letters of the alphabet and punctuation corresponded to musical notes or rests or this piece yeah and then I made it basically like like a joy like a magic

[00:35:24] sigil that you would draw so I took all of the vowels out and all of the conjunctions and then what I had left after that was basically the very very dry bare bones of what the first

[00:35:36] what the violin plays and that's the theme of the whole piece and that entire theme is how I built all the 45 minutes of music so in some shape or form it's got this in there a bit to it you know

[00:35:49] so there's various different ways that I go about writing um incredible uh just again lots of impact the thing that the first thing that jumps out to me is that being open to what your experiencing

[00:36:05] that makes it so like you say a certain note that might just oh exactly yeah I'll go back or oh that's sound I made okay don't know where it's going just yet but I want to bank that for later

[00:36:16] it's something I've heard a lot of musicians talk about right this idea of having like a database or like a bank of just a lot of new stuff like ideas but not being afraid of you know

[00:36:27] because you never never know which one's gonna come back around you go oh that thing goes with this thing exactly they're often funny you say that but very often I find that I've have written

[00:36:38] one piece into separate I think it's two pieces and it's not it's in fact one piece but it's just taken like 19 months to bring them together you know and it's like oh wow the finally I realise

[00:36:51] what I've done and it's you know it's okay then and imagine that's quite an amazing moment when you realise that they just come together yeah yeah yeah and the other thing um that's me was

[00:37:06] this idea of I mean what you just described with a cartography this idea of having a theme I'm all right thinking about some melodic things absolutely like what some would perhaps call a top-life right there's some melody in the middle and is that sort of what you usually

[00:37:20] focus on when it comes to writing what you try to structure right no I mean it's especially with with looping I mean so the cartography has a standalone thing because because that was fully orchestrated

[00:37:30] and the two I've just really the implications of application both of those were quite fully orchestrated as well so when you're looping um well I say to people just actually as far as possible don't

[00:37:45] don't sort of commit yourself uh it's for as long as possible don't commit yourself to either a chord sequence or anything so basically the best possible way to start off if you're

[00:37:56] looping is to loop something which is in the centre of your register well what is your voice your instrument or whatever else because then if you if you so so in my case that would be anything

[00:38:05] around middle sea let's pretend we loops middle sea okay fine so we have this running then we still have the option to go above and to go below so we can create a theme so this is

[00:38:15] okay so we're going to make a little simple theme that but that's just can sit on out sea loop you know for argument sake we can then harmonize that in a variety of different ways obviously

[00:38:26] depending on what theme it's like um but as all the while that we haven't committed any harmonic structure to the loop um again pretending we're working with a single loop channel so this is

[00:38:39] a simple very simple form of starting out with these things all the while we're not committed we can still move but the moment we commit to a baseline and we loop it in then we are stuck there because

[00:38:51] uh we stuck more or less I mean this again this is this is very you know um it's we're talking on a podcast I'm talking about looping and I don't have a cello with me and you know you know

[00:39:03] in a that's like a shopping environment it's much easier to demonstrate this because of course you never stuck I mean if you want to be very atonal then you can have a baseline and then

[00:39:11] you can run a minus second under the whole thing who cares fine but in terms of yeah diatonic harmony yeah giving yourself a structure exactly exactly so I mean in actual fact I'm

[00:39:24] probably because I'm a cellist as well so or chemistry speaking I'm kind of part of the low end of the orchestra so I'm very used to listening from the bass up so very often I'll be thinking

[00:39:32] actually um about the bottom end of what I'm doing and any kind of tune that creeps in is largely by accident unless it's by design like the cartographer so um yeah it's not you know how many along is not yeah yeah no it's just that's fascinating genuinely because

[00:39:57] I think most people when it comes to songwriting and I'm just thinking from like a band songwriter perspective you usually it's usually melody first it's usually like oh I've got

[00:40:06] a little tune and then I'll build all of the rhythm and all of the layers but it almost feels like you're doing the opposite which is really interesting but it makes sense given your background you'll use this to see because it depends when you're talking about bands

[00:40:21] and things it depends who is writing really because if the vocalists are writing then quite likely they'll probably either have a great line lyrics set of lyrics even just one line which is

[00:40:33] enough to start it although they'll be having humming a little refrain for you know two and a half weeks that's driving them mad and then maybe they might get together with the guitarists who

[00:40:40] do something or perhaps they will play guitar as well or whatever else you know this type of scenario or the guitar is say I have this fantastic riff and then you know this song singer will take away

[00:40:52] but I sometimes write a great riff and those are the ones that take the longest actually because the riff's great but like what am I going to do like that you know

[00:41:05] so I think you know to pet it depends who's who's writing but as you say from me because because of background and the way I've been if you like music you can't draw up so to speak

[00:41:16] there's very many different ways that I can begin but the biggest thing for me is the structure of the piece so if I'm thinking about piece that I am going to perform as a soloist so loops or even acoustic solo cello but not with an ensemble then

[00:41:41] that's probably the largest consideration is how am I going to make this a performable piece of music with the equipment I have which is very advanced but still nonetheless has its limitations

[00:41:54] because I am a soloist my only last my limitation is that I've got eight arms basically so I can't come crashing in you know with with with with loads of percussion and a massive

[00:42:07] wrist and a huge bass line all the same time because I've got to do it by bits of how am I going to do that and still make this piece as big broad strong small fragile instrument whatever I'm

[00:42:18] trying to do with it how am I going to do that in a way which people will not sit there and which which has integrity that's what I want to say that how am I going to say that that's

[00:42:30] my biggest concern is not really the melody or the bass or you know the filler or anything else it's structurally how am I going to do this what do I need to in order to make this work and

[00:42:45] if and then that's when mathematics starts getting involved because it's very often it will be a case of what's the what's the lowest division of bars that I can work so it's obviously you know

[00:42:58] and then if I can have a bar with with with with two beats in it then I can have one loop running with just four beats in it and then like with the forge as a piece there's a big demonstration on

[00:43:10] on YouTube that I did for boss anyway this piece is exactly this type of thing it had it had a big kind of riffy chord sequence but all right so I'm going to set this up well okay I've set it up

[00:43:22] because the structure that main riff with big chord sequence is 60 beats or therefore four bars are 158 long so two of my loops are running only one bar cycles because that way I can chop stuff in two

[00:43:36] and we're running at two bar cycles so I can get things flopping over the top and then I run the the one bar cycle I run it in five because that's 15 beats the two bar cycle I run it in six is because

[00:43:49] that's 30 beats so you can do you can do that so you know so so anyway it works so what you what you've done then is within the space of three bars do you manage to set up a

[00:44:04] peccasive or rhythmic interest which appears to be collider scopic which actually is returning it on itself all the time but it has the appearance of being like a collider scope and so we feel

[00:44:18] that there is some some interest some of some a compositional interest movement shape which we can then play with and once you've got that set up then everything else is pretty simple to bring in and out but

[00:44:30] you just it was just a little tiny little tricks like that if you're a soloist very very useful I think yeah definitely definitely no I you I think you're so spot on you have definitely got to think

[00:44:45] about the live aspect I think particularly in your in your range of music I would be surprised and worried if you weren't thinking about it if you were just like oh figure out on

[00:44:58] the day before but this a thing that kind of jumps out to me there is not only do you seem to be obviously considering the technical and the mathematics of it all which you know I think all musicians

[00:45:12] we have to resign ourselves to learning that stuff at some point or another because it's important but it's the feel that's what's jumping out to me here is something you said a minute ago was

[00:45:24] what's the intentionality behind this piece of music how do I want the audience to feel how do I want to feel performing it and is that the most important thing then when it comes to

[00:45:33] composing a song for you really as much as you've got the structure everything else is what am I yeah exactly exactly exactly how it is it's so it's so important and it depends it depends on

[00:45:45] the concept settings to how much I will say about each piece but every single piece has has a story also sometimes I don't say very much because my story is not your story so okay

[00:45:58] might be that could be my story of how I've written the piece why I've written it but you as an audience member are very free to make your own stories and if actually people will come

[00:46:06] and tell me their stories you know often after a concept very beautiful things are wild or crazy ideas and it's great that the piece gave them that space you know it's completely different

[00:46:18] from my intention as writer but I don't care because as soon as you perform a piece of music it's not yours anymore that sounds like what I mean is you've set it free so yes you've written it

[00:46:32] you've been sitting here in your room like my room here crafting crafting crafting and then you get to a stage and it the first time in my case that I perform any piece it's normally terribly dodgy

[00:46:44] because obviously you know running it off in a live setting my god but it's it's then begins to have an identity of its own you know so yeah and you know you can you you can work with that

[00:47:00] that's pretty good but all of them I mean yeah like fighting caltations is a good example I mean that's a whole album with the airfire war transfer it's an exploration of each of

[00:47:11] like the cardinal energies and within that one sometimes I say that and sometimes I don't say it um just depends on the vibe I'm getting from the room really um

[00:47:23] I love it no I love it it's the thing the biggest thing I'm getting out of this is that being responsive to to the music and learning that help you then craft the songs and the piece and

[00:47:35] not necessarily being too worried about what direction it's going it's just let's just feel it out yeah 100% because you know I think art in general I mean particularly composition in music

[00:47:47] if you I mean there were moments when you need to work hard to get something finished or whatever but if you are if you ever have a sensation that you will be really trying to push and push

[00:47:58] something it's probably not right and I would say this to any of my students I'll say it to anybody as well if sometimes the best thing to do in those situations you know so you can't

[00:48:09] force a piece into a framework you have to sometimes sit and let it develop and then after while it might reveal its identity or its intention to you but if for the time being it's just a series

[00:48:22] of notes that's absolutely fine because that's your duty it's a serve those notes and to play them over and over again until you understand what it is that needs then I'll put next you know yeah but it's a very strange it's very very very strange

[00:48:38] very strange experience I think writing music it's wonderful but yeah I guess being in tune with that feel and that sort of intentionality does that help you to then know when it's finished yeah oh

[00:48:52] god that's the great really question it was it I mean I did you know when you release or when I release an album that is very often the start point of that piece of music so absolutely

[00:49:07] without the question every single time I've released a record the piece has then gone on the music has gone on and and develops and it's a biggest case in point probably is a piece

[00:49:18] of the first track on my first album that's the solo it was it was it's called Rex and I play that now I didn't play it for years I played it now in the search completely different piece would certainly

[00:49:29] complete a different intention behind it it's got a big development it's got a broad massive huge sounds in there there's very little resemblance to the original but it is the original piece

[00:49:43] but that was its journey you see and so it took me 12 years to recognize what that piece was doing 12 years because I released that one in 2000 and oh I continue I released it in 2010 and then I

[00:49:59] got it out of the box in 2020 it was only in 2020 that I was able to play that piece as I believe a crum in my mind had an idea of how that piece should be but I wasn't able to do that at the

[00:50:15] time you see so now I am and so I'm very interested to see how it will be in 20 years time from now yeah who knows who knows it's I can I love that idea that of letting things evolve

[00:50:30] in that way it's yeah it's kind of like how I think a lot of bands when you hear the men's of you about certain songs that the big hits and then live they'll do it slightly differently

[00:50:41] I think one just so you know variety but two I think it's like yeah they probably would approach this differently now like you said at the way they react to the song yeah it makes sense you

[00:50:53] would feel completely different about it 10 years on and therefore would play it differently or approach it differently I always think it will be an interesting experiment if I mean if I could say in a theory

[00:51:03] that you could just wipe someone's mind and say get them to rewrite that song 10 years later and then see what happened I'd be really fascinated to try that and to see like yeah how would

[00:51:14] you approach it now and yeah that's cool and as a performer you could do that right you can kind of go you know what I'm going to change up the arrangement here I'm going to just play a language

[00:51:23] it's a little bit I mean yeah that I think that's quite important in my personal view is that life performance is the vehicle to make these amendments and alterations and experimentation

[00:51:36] with your piece I mean yeah there's a great version on the album fine I mean nobody I don't think really wants to go to a gig to hear an album you know yeah it's a tricky one isn't it because

[00:51:49] it's like I guess it depends on the type of music you're going to be super cool but I do a great I think if somebody just makes slightly differently there was a part of me that years ago

[00:52:02] would be a bit like oh that's wrong but it's just been as I've got an order and I kind of appreciate I'm like no that's cool they're trying something slightly different and you're absolutely right

[00:52:15] I think as I think about it actually there's a bunch of bands that I think of where I like I've seen them live so many times and if you hear the same song and they played the same

[00:52:24] way every time it does get a little bit repetitive it does get a little bit of you that goes hardcore and I have a bit of a jam play and so I see certain bands change it up slightly

[00:52:35] although they'll do still jam it out although they'll do a slow intro or just anything you can and it makes it interesting and it makes it exciting right it's like as an audience member

[00:52:44] be like feels like you're hearing it for the first time of course cool is it does yeah I think it's great I also think it shows confidence and a sort of an authority as a performer and as a band

[00:52:59] you know and a great great music ship definitely especially if you're working in a band environment I think also well for me anyway I mean it's it's it's a 50 50 sort of that's going to happen

[00:53:11] because I'm alive looping so if I go wrong then I have to I have only one option which is two great to manage them that I have sometimes he says there is only one option

[00:53:25] anyway my one option in the event that I go wrong is to create a piece of music out of whatever the hell I've just done because I will I cannot stop because that's your professional and

[00:53:39] I can't if I'm working on something which is very very specifically timed then I cannot get out there's that's all right so if I've made a mistake well you know we're in it for the long haul

[00:53:51] so you know that's how it goes so you just get on with it and then a very great new piece is created that will never ever happen again and you'll believe no one notices but I tell them anyway so

[00:54:06] well my or honesty yeah you know this night kind of a call though that that means that people in that room could hear something potentially that they'd never hear again 100% that's and that's what it's all about right the experience and then that's what you're going for

[00:54:24] it suppose is invoking a feeling that piece of music so technically Joe you haven't made a mistake you just done exactly what you wanted to do just slightly differently that's right yeah yeah see

[00:54:37] it's fine it's fine the intention was correct so I'm thinking about this next sort of year then for you and songwriting what do you plan on doing do you plan on doing like another concept

[00:54:50] to any sort of orchestral stuff or is it just kind of you're going to experiment a bit more with the pedals yeah I mean I've got I've got two performances I can't unfortunately I can't reveal

[00:55:01] any information about at this moment in time but they're both big orchestral ones nice yes they're very nice very big ones and at the same time so I'm currently finishing these orchestrations

[00:55:15] and I'm also about to take a leap off into beginning my next album my next studio album if you like so so a cello record but obviously you know there'll be lots of bits and pieces

[00:55:30] guests and things but I'm actually yeah I've got I've got the DNA of the entire album but it can take me a long time to write so I couldn't tell you it could it could be done this year

[00:55:45] ready for release in spring next year I might finish it next week but either way I mean find vinyl manufactured times quite a long lead times at the moment so it's not not gonna be out

[00:55:56] for a while yeah that does seem to be holding a lot of people up these days yeah I mean it's vinyl is pretty necessary for the majority of people who are in this type of field because

[00:56:12] people will people like to support and if you put time and care into your records then they will buy those records and that is the way my wheel keeps turning basically is through merchandise

[00:56:23] yeah so yes there are there are delays they are easing a little bit but there are also quite a lot more pressing plants on the go the thing that causes that has caused me a massive massive problem stating the obvious heroes break sit because I cannot sell into

[00:56:41] Europe by mail anymore well I could but so I've got everything that's not released on by Norse vinyl's did the cartoic for an invocation of application everything else is on my own

[00:56:52] label I've just done records so I've got a great friend in Belgium who basically acts as my distribution but yeah it would you need you need a great friend if you're gonna find it you know

[00:57:09] it's because it's my god I mean obviously Holly I don't even want to have it got overnight my market disappeared you know and I don't blame them you know it's just

[00:57:20] this why would you pay and then I have to pay import and then pay those for postage as well you mean yeah I can say that your parcel has new value but that doesn't stop you know some

[00:57:30] enthusiastic person at customs still sticking you know the imports on so yeah and I think that's a lot of the it's course a lot of hassle um I don't really get political on

[00:57:43] this book yeah but that does seem to be a thing that's course a lot of issues for a lot of musicians it's worth acknowledging like you say merchandise touring as well I know has become very expensive

[00:57:53] in the UK for people outside of the UK yes of course yeah for it'll hurt a lot about that so you kind of hope that these things will change over time and they will yeah they will you know yeah

[00:58:07] would go down that road but I mean basically I just yes they will they will change but you might want to edit that whole lot out though so I don't know it's fine it's worth acknowledging as well

[00:58:17] because again that's all part of the artists journey right is it's accepting all of that yeah it's easier for people who are starting off now will not know any different you know it's like people

[00:58:30] it's like the whole digital media thing um it doesn't it's always been there as far as I'm concerned so right it's it's a necessary evil this is why I have this attitude that I have to live

[00:58:43] music as well because I mean my Spotify numbers are very low apparently I don't know because you see highly I don't use Spotify because I record if I like it you know yeah I maybe will ask

[00:58:56] Ruben asked my husband who's this artist if I hear it on his Amazon account and he'll tell sure and then I'll buy even just that track that's how I do things and people that I know that

[00:59:09] that is it's the live performance it's that environment which is so precious and so special to people and so that's why I'm as fixated on that as I clearly appear to be in this podcast because

[00:59:23] yeah no it's just lovely you know that live to be in a room together and it doesn't matter if there's three people there or 30,000 people doesn't matter you know it's still the experience of

[00:59:38] live I mean that's quite a big stage to be fair but let's say three people or 300 people or 6000 so something that's like you know that we're all from England yeah even I mean even no I mean let's say 80,000 we all think you're about Queen for example

[00:59:56] yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but in that man Freddie Mercury had that power to reach every single one of those people you know and that is that is magic surely if it is nothing else is that is

[01:00:11] that is magic I think and that this is what I love about live music Joe is being I've been in rooms where it's like like you say like 50 people and then I've been in stadiums where it's 50,000

[01:00:25] and the feeling is the same yes yes I love that I love that it's why I'm so fascinated in this subject and again it's of course and it all starts for songs it all starts for people coming

[01:00:34] up with music in their head like you say playing around and that that journey from that concept as you say I've just playing around in your room and just oh okay I like this idea and let's see where

[01:00:46] it goes to now you're sharing it with people and people are responding to it and associating a memory with it and having a connection and they'll tell other people about it and it's just magic I think

[01:00:59] it's just magic. It is, it is I mean that's the word I often use after news for music energy's change in a room now okay we could say yeah out of physics so what we could say if we

[01:01:12] liked is that we're going to play piece of music and what we're going to do there is put a load of vibrations through a PA system which is going to move airwaves and therefore the environment

[01:01:21] is going to change around people but at the same time yes okay so that's the practical thing but we're also sound sound okay vibration maybe like a son or something you know it's a vibrational you know very very encompassing experience but we are creating a space with sound

[01:01:41] and in that space perhaps neural processes are permitted perhaps something something happens so that a different experience I can't phrase this correctly it's a possibility of magic basically can happen space you are permitted or permit yourself or sees a space that just at that moment in

[01:02:09] time you can exist in that's the power of music for all these performers alike does matter and that you can be in that space and then things change or anything you know not we're grow third arm or something but something it is open possibilities it opens the possibility

[01:02:29] it does things that's you know that's that I think is is so important I do wish I could phrase this better I must really try harder next time I'm trying to think myself just fine but this is why I use

[01:02:42] the word magic because I'm like I don't understand it but it's beautiful it's like yeah I think what we're talking about is it's something that I think will be studying for time and more

[01:02:55] is human emotional responses to anything right and this is why I love art so I can use it in just all of its forms it's like the idea that you can take a few notes like you say a few

[01:03:05] frequencies some sounds and it makes you react in your brain and you cry or you laugh or you smile or you get angry or whatever it's like again it blows my mind and it blows my mind that we can do

[01:03:21] that you know and there's so many different ways of doing it which is what's beautiful and yeah this is the journey I'm hoping to share with everybody as as I go on this series it's like

[01:03:30] yeah check the sight and this is the different people's approaches and yeah you know and it's lovely to hear you express that show that that's something that's really important to in your what you do it's it's lovely to hear and it's also very reassuring because I think

[01:03:46] personally I think we need more people like yourself creating music that are genuine about that actually care you know again to me that that's the most important thing when I watch an artist I

[01:03:58] don't care now what genre what thing you do it's like if I can sense that like yeah they love this this is coming from in here you've got me as far as I'm concerned oh that's great it's wonderful to

[01:04:09] know that you know people then people like you around there's loads of us there's loads of us that people that spend way too I mean I you know I wish I could turn my camera ring because I'm just

[01:04:20] looking up and I'm like I'm staring at a board of tickets oh good for you though yeah yeah it's what I love to do I'm going to a gig next week with my sister in law and wife and it's like it's

[01:04:30] what I do because I love life music I love yeah I love being in that room and like you said being in that space being in that energy yeah yeah I'm experiencing it I'm testing it it's magic

[01:04:41] it's magic so I look forward to hearing what you're gonna do in the next year what if the format takes like I've been genuinely have been enjoying a lot of your work this week I was even

[01:04:50] listening to um I was listening to Exolve the small game in the gym and yeah it's quite a different for me to be listening to some instrumental sort of classic themed music but yeah it's felt powerful I won't lie some of the buildups were really helpful this morning

[01:05:07] you could have a little shortly exactly yeah it's just suddenly I was a bit surge of energy from one of your songs I was like yes we can do this there's a guy who wrote to me on um Instagram

[01:05:19] he's a big very beautiful man well really called very big power lifter and you know strong man okay and he's the head made of film a bit to do a bit of his his movement stuff

[01:05:33] um using stag wise all stag now so I went God I never heard that side of stag but it was like he said it's like this is not particularly not like Exolve like particularly big but

[01:05:45] it's this constant drive of energy you know which he said was very uplifting so I'm so oh great well man fitness music is my next genre then there you go that's this is what you got

[01:05:56] to do you've got to take your vinyl's and go to gym yeah it's a trust me trust me I've had some feedback yeah my wife goes to a part of this in gym I should uh should get some

[01:06:08] CDs and send them all that's really why not but again it's like we joke but it's like why not I kind of like yeah people it's like you said earlier it's you've put it out there it's how people

[01:06:20] respond to it and it's gonna be different everywhere it's really cool it's really cool it's for everyone it's for the record as well is that when I have done when I've finished a tour like when I met you

[01:06:31] I just finished a European tour and I was sort of part way through the tour with John I like and what I do to like a massive well like a gig basically for me it's a huge massive

[01:06:43] low physically yeah the physical energy that gives you sense of performance as well huge and at the end of a tour I'm like oh check out the biceps you know

[01:06:55] yeah I bet I bet I get I hear this a lot of interviews now I think it is it must be exhausting in so many ways and yeah you must feel like you've been through the ring it's very funny you know it's

[01:07:09] all the things you think about but it's I think about these pictures of you know these sort of Victorian ladies playing the cello and everything is all very nice and sort of you know or you know

[01:07:19] burock chelace and things I'm like oh my god you know that's furthest from the truth I feel like some like war horse by the end of it you know yeah you know they were absolutely ripped and

[01:07:32] an eagle those horses that's right yeah absolutely yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah they were dragging that wagon home no problem yeah it's amazing it's amazing oh brilliant

[01:07:45] I'm just I'm just wondering as well so something I wanted to ask you we've kind of danced around this already but what are your sort of biggest influences when it comes to your song writing

[01:07:55] I'm really curious about this and I touched upon a lot of the stuff that you'd like but yeah is are there any influences that you draw upon for your writing yes they're multiple and varied

[01:08:05] and they're not all musicals also so I suppose obviously musical influences would obviously be like we discussed before you know that the metal things they're particularly anything that came out in 1987 is particularly like has a soft spot in my heart like why it's never yeah I'm good

[01:08:24] company and also I mean composers of our parents John Taverner what his name bloke decurs ponai Thomas forgot now I'll have to look at him up here I do know what I can do a Google for you and

[01:08:44] I can pop in my Google theme here Chris applause I should have said before I occasionally do jingles and weird stuff in this show bearermind I've got a velvety yeah that's him here's a Estonian composer Curs ponai is incredibly powerful piece of music and that's actually that's

[01:09:17] one I'm drawing upon quite a lot in the orchestration that I'm doing for the thing I can't tell you about unfortunately but I will tell you about it so as I can so those composers I mean off of

[01:09:29] other obvious I mean you know to be a series of very obvious one as well the beautiful writing I'm an even I often refer to quite early music too so whether it's Thomas Tales for example

[01:09:45] or any of these types of people you know so there's many things that go on there meet music sometimes things like like yeah it's drug-drome based stuff as well definitely electronic music anyway so there's also bits and pieces musically but I very very very often refer to

[01:10:09] T.S. Eliot for quartets particularly little gooding we don't have run over again over and over again and I think there is great musicality in the rhythm of the language and if you speak

[01:10:24] if you read it aloud to yourself or to anyone who's standing around red naturally the the infections of the voice is very great musicality there as well and so so this is very important to me that particularly that's particularly little getting but all of four quartets and

[01:10:41] I mean you know much more glitchy to as well but that one that one is the one I refer to and art as well so it's a visual art so I often think about Barbara Hepworth for example

[01:10:54] in fact for as many reasons I mean not just because she was a woman but because she at this time was creating these absolutely gigantic sculptures huge, huge sculptures statements on the landscape

[01:11:10] she was making you know and she one of her big kind of things was that big I'm sorry I'm so so in articulate tonight got no's why no you're fine but she at for her the sculpture was

[01:11:28] fine that's the sculpture but where is it going to be positioned and I think this is a very musical way of looking at things as well because all on what is the backdrop that we will sit

[01:11:38] out sculptor now whether you consider the composition as the sculpture and the backdrop is the stage you know or perhaps the sculpture is one aspect of the composition and the backdrop that the landscape is the rest of the composition doesn't matter how you view it but it's this

[01:11:54] six change and then the last thing I want to leave about this oh shut up in a minute is that George Roki so this is a use this a lot when I do Georgia okay very beautiful painter

[01:12:06] sort of again big big flower big things it's quite you know obviously you know bonus quite quite defined color there is sensual there's a very important music I think it says this says you

[01:12:19] asked but George Roki she had a wonderful phrase and I tell my students they said she said I began in the charcoal on paper until I could go no further and then I added blue you know

[01:12:33] and I love this and they're saying to people okay this is how we do it so we start with very very simply seeing what is the basic thing that we can do with our music or without playing

[01:12:42] and till we can go no further particularly with with with with with looping how far can we go just with this very very basically then we're going to add the one components and then of course

[01:12:53] after that we go on and on but this very it's the wonderful idea that you have this charcoal simply you have a simple very simple very natural approach and then after that you go on with

[01:13:05] you know rather than opening a gigantic pallet of 128 colors you know yeah yeah yeah yeah that's that's beautiful I love that I was just looking up the sculptures and the paintings as well

[01:13:17] as you would describe them and yeah I can I can see what you mean actually I've loosely familiar with both of those artists so yeah that's a really interesting way of taking I've never heard someone say that before honestly of taking a visual component but putting

[01:13:32] it's music but I can see exactly what you're getting and that obviously helps you then in your composition well I think it helps I mean all you know plenty of artists if you like people painters

[01:13:44] as I would say that they are influenced by music and I really feel very much that the boots on the other foot but I think that you see it might be okay we're dealing with something which is not tangible

[01:13:55] and so far as the fact that it's well it is if you put the dots on the page and sell it it's sheet music but it's not a tangible thing but so therefore when we're creating it it's

[01:14:05] very important I think that there is some kind of visual aspect to it and I'm not also clearly not talking about having a music video well I mean the creativity has a visual aspect to it

[01:14:19] and these sculptures particularly you know the Barbara Hepburn is a very very good example this is like looping as well so you could take something like one of her whatever let's just take

[01:14:32] one of her sculptures we're looking at it so I'm going to describe one thing and your same sculpture from the other side and you will describe something which is completely different but we're talking about the same sculpture yes we were to just use our descriptive language

[01:14:47] you might be talking about you know the way that the particular angle cuts away on this side or the light hits this that and the other eye could be talking about the smooth flow from the lower

[01:14:57] end or blah blah blah but we're talking about it's the same sculpture but we're describing different things and that's music to me that's why I explored a lot actually an invocation subunication was this this the fact that there is something that we've created here which has

[01:15:09] clearly two sides to it and we're turning it around all the time we're looking at both sides that's music that's three-dimensional music you know yeah I'm pretty better sorry no just don't apologize you're absolutely fine again that makes a lot of sense I'm just

[01:15:27] processing what you're saying and yeah I get it I get it I mean especially like we're comes back to what we were saying earlier right about you write a song from a certain point of view

[01:15:37] you put it out there and then someone comes up to you and says I felt this and you can go yeah cool all right neither one is wrong 100% right that's exactly that's it yeah

[01:15:50] it's interesting I wonder how many other people in this are gonna bring this up I'll let you let you know what I'm saying yeah yeah yeah it's it's interesting it's really really interesting

[01:16:02] and it's encouraging as well because it's to me it's just as I am at just on the right it's a nice reminder to keep myself open to experiences and trying new things and just letting

[01:16:13] that door open up because you don't know what's gonna that's right yeah what's gonna come through that's right yeah you're so right fascinating stuff I love it I love it yeah with that in

[01:16:24] mind with the sort of visual do you find that happens when you're playing music do you sort of get something in your head then sort of pop up like a story sometimes is that kind of help you write

[01:16:39] yes I suppose I suppose that I'm just child you know it's the reason I ask is because just yeah just because um here reminder me actually if something a friend of mine like a good

[01:16:50] friend of former guest early real this is a very good songwriter and a rame right often talks by when it comes to writing lyrics she'll like she'll say she'll write us something on a piano

[01:16:59] or a guitar she'll just listen to it and then it's like what does the story in my head do you know what sort of images come up and then try and write to that okay I was fascinated by that and yeah

[01:17:09] it's kind of something I'm wondering if that plays a part sometimes when you're writing a piece and sort of wondering where it's going if your imagination just suddenly one disaster starts picturing something anything well that's interesting yeah I just sort of follow it I suppose so in

[01:17:24] a way I mean I wouldn't say it's something that I am aware of particularly certainly when a piece is in the completion completion I mean that's a file thing so yeah all right when when when

[01:17:38] pieces is structurally organised then yes I might when I'm playing it from start to finish as opposed to several bits and pieces here and there it might be that I have a clearer idea of the

[01:17:52] sort of the arc of it I mean they always have an identity to start with even if it's even if it's cloudy or obscured or unknown they they completely unknown sometimes but they I sense that

[01:18:04] there is you know something ready to be told here but it more often for me it's in the way I build sounds so for example it's not to some of the sounds in rex those are very much like these

[01:18:19] big kind of monoliths of Barbara Hepworth you know on a win-swept more somewhere the big huge hiccups sounds that I'm making are for her yeah so that's kind of a little bit more

[01:18:35] where it is I suppose the narrative unfolds I mean no it's fascinating again to me it just says that you're letting those two different bits of your brain connect you know you're not separating

[01:18:50] one from the other visual to audio it's just it's all happening at the same time yes yes yes just that's this is your avenue of express exactly yeah yeah really hello genuinely this has been

[01:19:03] so insightful thank you so much I just conscious at the time but before I do close up I want to throw it over to you Joe was there anything else you wanted to talk about in terms of songwriting

[01:19:13] your approach just something you feel just anything that I've perhaps not covered or touched upon that you wanted to discuss I don't I don't think so the only thing I would really really want to

[01:19:27] convey to people is that there is no embargo there is no limitation on your own creativity and whatever your own art is in whatever form it takes and if you haven't we're not limited to the

[01:19:44] pursuit of arts here either I mean you know we could be bakers or gardeners or children whatever it's the point is we do things in an artistic way or with with a freedom um the the only thing

[01:20:00] I would want to convey to you know the you know the you're listening is is that you permit yourselves to to do it your own way and not to be told by anybody that you can or cannot do this that

[01:20:13] or the other you know I like I think I mentioned it when in the concept that I played for you it's quite people quite fond of or they used to be quite fond of telling me what they thought I

[01:20:25] ought to do or I should do or even what I could do as a solo, a solo, a chelester and I said thank you very much indeed for your not useful information at all. And well I'll just do it my way and

[01:20:36] it biggest key point is the thing I've just released invocation uh we huge uh and I was just song the three songs cycle uh that are two of them I want to write from Maria Frans from Highland one

[01:20:47] from for Lorenzo as a political fan of sorry who's a magnificent baritone, Tannian baritone, Maria is one everything all of them everything was recorded at home so as a first thing people say

[01:20:58] I know you you need to really go into a studio no you don't you do it at home I mean we we had to work our way around my fridge a lot of the time but we did it at home and my choir was made by people

[01:21:09] singing to me and sending it on their mobile phones right and I made it and you can listen to this piece and it doesn't really sound like it's been made on a mobile phone and no it signs incredible

[01:21:20] I was listening to it just before we started talking to it. Oh I am going to make it put what but this is the case in point is that people a lot of people said you can't do that and I'm saying

[01:21:30] to you now that whatever it is you want to do you can do it and please do it and do it with great joy and ver for the plomb and the world will turn correctly then you know that's all.

[01:21:44] Well said I think that's a lovely note to wrap up on so I just want to thank you Jo for coming on thank you for your time and for anyone that doesn't know where can they find you in your work.

[01:21:55] YouTube Jo Quail Chelogio QU-A-I-L and my website as well it's Jo Quail Chelog Instagram Facebook you know that's what it is too. Brilliant I'll make sure to put links in all of that

[01:22:08] to the show later this episode or I'll see. No thank you new thank you very much. And there we have it thank you so much Jo for coming on to the podcast and sharing your absolutely fascinating insights into songwriting with us. I really hope that you guys listening

[01:22:23] enjoy this episode do yourself a favor and go and check out Jo's music it is truly spectacular I'm not just saying that because she was kind enough to come on the show I really do think it's

[01:22:33] amazing if you can see her live and make sure you do it because it's really a sight to behold as you would have heard it's something that she's deeply passionate about and very connected to

[01:22:44] as well as just being very technically gifted it's really such an amazing thing to witness so make sure you give it a listen and make sure you go and check it out when she's in your area.

[01:22:54] I have left links in the show notes we can find her website, her music and all that good stuff. Make sure you give her a follow and support her incredible work it really is worth your time.

[01:23:03] And speaking of time I just want to take a moment to thank you for listening to this episode if you enjoy this podcast then please do me a favor and just tell somebody about it.

[01:23:13] That's really the number one thing I like to ask from my audience. Just spread the word. I really don't mind how you go about doing that whether it's word of mouth or social media either way

[01:23:23] it goes a long way to helping out this podcast to find an audience to grow to reach more people. Book more guests, explore more topics and all of that good stuff.

[01:23:34] Links are in the show notes we can give me a follow on social media, leave me a nice review on your favorite podcast here preferably five stars please. As well as a few links where you can get

[01:23:43] yourself some merchandise featuring the wonderful artwork designed by one Alex Jenkins, his details also in the show notes or you can donate directly to the podcast via the coffee or coffee page still not sure how you pronounce it or you can donate directly through the podcast website

[01:23:58] links are in the show notes for that as well. Thank you so much again for listening to this episode I will be back next week with a returning guest of the podcast to discuss their approach to

[01:24:08] songwriting and I cannot wait you guys to hear it it was an absolute blast to record and capture with this person and as ever they brought me some really interesting insights that I'm sure you

[01:24:19] are going to enjoy. So until then have yourselves a great week go and check out Joe's incredible music and I will meet you right back here for another episode of the podcast see you then.