Song Writing with Lynne Hanson

[00:00:14] Hello and welcome to Fandomentals, the podcast that explores pop culture, one conversation at a time. I am your host, Harley. Every episode, I interview different people from around the world to discuss a variety of topics within the world of pop culture. Thanks for joining

[00:00:30] me on this journey and I hope you enjoy the episode. Hello and welcome back to another episode of Fandomentals and on this episode I'm joined by a returning guest to the podcast, The Americana Artist, Lynne Hanson. Lynne was good enough

[00:00:52] to return to the show and join me for an episode of the Song Writing Season to discuss her unique approach to this art form. The last time I spoke with Lynne we talked about NFL of all things which was a really fun

[00:01:05] conversation and by the way if you've not heard it, do yourself a favor and go back and listen to it but since then I've become quite the fan of Lynne's music as someone who doesn't know an awful lot about the Americana genre. I was quite intrigued to learn

[00:01:18] more after we had our chat and when I was playing together this particular season for the podcast, I was really eager to get Lynne back onto the show and learn as much as I could about her style of writing and what she's done over the years, various albums,

[00:01:34] various approaches, the way that she likes to weave storytelling into her lyrics and so much more. Lynne was absolutely delightful and insightful and I'm sure you guys really enjoy this conversation. So with all that said let's just get to it. This is Song Writing with

[00:01:52] Lynne Hanson. Hello Lynne and welcome back to the fundamentals podcast. Oh thanks so much for having me, I had such a blast last time. Thank you, I mean that was quite an eye-opening discussion I got to say all about NFL,

[00:02:13] like yeah, just keep thinking about that one every now and then I'm pretty sure I even referenced it in another episode after I just could. Yeah it's not that often I get to do a sports

[00:02:23] topic so I really enjoy doing that. How are your teams doing by the way? I can't try to remember which ones they weren't in. Well the buffalo bills are in the playoffs and they're

[00:02:31] playing this weekend and they have their huge favorites so I'm hoping that they're going to win the English graph. Fantastic, so we like to hear. Yeah, I love it. That's amazing but you very graciously come back onto the show to talk about something that is probably what you're

[00:02:54] better known for I think it's safe to say and it's part of a series that I've started doing and I've just been absolutely loving it it's all about songwriting so Lynne I just want to jump

[00:03:04] straight in the first question I'm asking all of my guests and I want to know this for yourself. What was the first song you ever wrote? I wrote a song called different story and it was an

[00:03:17] absolute heartbreak of a song. It was funny because I mean you know a lot of the time genres will probably tell you, you know they're writing about their own experiences or or experiences of people that are close to them around them because it's the easiest kind of

[00:03:33] stories to tell and I was in the middle of basically I was in the middle of a divorce and so it's it's based on me the two characters in this divorce and and I just yeah I kind of like I'm

[00:03:48] narrating sort of those final moments when you know they're signing the papers and everybody knows it's over and yeah I mean it was pretty sad song yeah that's all for first album right?

[00:04:01] That's my first record yeah yeah yeah so just to give you a bit of context I've listened through it all of your stuff today. Oh wow I mean I've been listening to it anyway since we last spoke but

[00:04:13] I made a point today just to go through everything and just give myself that kind of perspective of what you do and your approach is so straight away you've kind of answered a question I was going to

[00:04:23] ask you anyway. Sort of regards people's experiences in the type of music that you do but that's really interesting then oh yeah a different story that's that's a personal personal one and that was the first song you've ever wrote. First song I ever wrote that got

[00:04:38] made it on a record. So what I mean I I considered to be the first real song that I ever wrote I mean I wrote a few songs before then that were more of a childish you know I mean but it's funny

[00:04:50] because you know when I I don't listen back to my old records okay but you know when I have gone back and listened to things I miss which was my first record it came out in 2006 which is a long time ago

[00:05:05] and I'm definitely a different writer now. I mean I write from a different perspective and even if I write about heartbreak it's from a different lens you know so it's it's always

[00:05:15] interesting for me to go back and actually listen to those old songs and go like wow let's go back you know I remember when I used to write like that. Yeah this is sort of transport you back

[00:05:26] to that moment as well and that sort of where you were at that point in your life. Well you know it's funny because I've since remarried and I'm in a happy marriage and you know people always say

[00:05:38] that you have to be unhappy or that you have to be in pain to write great art and I always my my feeling was always all I have to do is reach back just a little ways because I can touch it.

[00:05:51] I mean I remember what it felt like so it's it's I think if you if you have experienced pain in your life or challenges you know it's a great place to write from because these are topics

[00:06:04] that people can really relate to and you know I think that's you know sad songs make people happy. I have to agree with that yeah it's true there's something about a song where

[00:06:16] yeah like you said the mood or the lyrics or something about it just hits you and yeah you're right definitely coming from a place of pain and an experience like that as much as we don't want

[00:06:27] to go through the mischievous part of life so yeah if you can relate to what someone's saying in a song yeah definitely hits harder exactly I mean it's it's the funny thing about songwriting

[00:06:37] and I think it's it's it's why people love music it's because they can see themselves in songs and you know the most relatable song the most the song that people really connect to is a song

[00:06:48] that they can you know they can sort of see the a little bit of themselves in and I think that's probably why heartbreak songs are so popular is because everybody's had their heartbroken at least once.

[00:06:58] Yeah yeah I think that's right definitely definitely was that the kind of space you were writing a lot from then in that first album in general because again I've listened through it and you're

[00:07:08] just looking at it now and you kind of seems like that's almost like the concept of this whether or not you'd call that a concept album of course I don't know well I mean I think

[00:07:18] I think like my first couple of records I was really going through a difficult time and I think that I was really writing from that perspective that that place of hurt and and I think

[00:07:29] that's really reflected in in the lyrics and just the tone of the songs themselves and I think you know as I've as I've gotten older and just more mature in terms of the way that I go about writing

[00:07:41] even now when I write a heartbreak song it's not in first person it's not me writing about my heartbreak me writing about heartbreak that I understand and know and I know it's a subtle difference but

[00:07:53] it is a difference and I think that as a result the songs have a different tone to them they can still be incredibly so they can still be incredibly sad yeah absolutely I think that's a good point to touch upon yeah you're right not everything has to

[00:08:09] be necessarily that personal lens I suppose yeah so what do you feel the distancing difference is then between one that you've written from your point of view versus when you're writing one

[00:08:21] from perhaps is it you thinking of characters or you think of people that you know is it that sort of kind of empathy is that what you're going for well I think you know when I'm writing from a place

[00:08:30] of out that's my hurt it's you know you're you're writing in a moment you're writing with a feeling so there's an emotion that you feel as a writer and you're just gonna spewing it out onto the page

[00:08:42] and there's not a lot of thought given to it because it just it just comes because you're hurting but then when you write about heartbreak from a perspective of like it's it's it's a heartbreak

[00:08:51] that I understand then I think that at least for me is a writer I'm drawing a lot more on imagery so it's like you know what what kind of a movie do I see in my head that makes me think of these

[00:09:04] feelings makes me think of these things and you know it might be my movie that I replay in my head but a lot of the times it's not even my movie that I'm seeing interesting who's movie

[00:09:15] are you saying then it's like it's I don't know what it is it's like there's this magical place that I can go to where I just I see characters you know like there's I have songs there's a song

[00:09:26] called River Sand where I can see yes I can see the character I mean I know what kind of jacket that he's wearing I know what I know how long he's beard is I know he has a beard you know

[00:09:37] I know how long his hair is and I can see the dirt on his jacket and on his boots and stuff and so you know I really visualize this character in this song and again from from a heartbreak

[00:09:50] perspective if it's not my heartbreak that I'm writing about I can see the characters in my head and that's who's not who I'm actually writing about that's really interesting okay now I like that

[00:10:02] as funny I'm a friend of mine Ellie who's a songwriter we had this discussion a while ago about doing this sort of thing and and she's described exactly what you've just mentioned this

[00:10:13] idea of like listening to music and then it tells you a story and then going oh what am I seeing what like you say a film or an image and then sort of trying to write towards that so I'm curious

[00:10:24] how do you get to a place like that is that just by strumming a chord literally on a guitar hitting something on piano and then just letting it happen or do you start writing lyrics first

[00:10:33] and then so always it kind of just a weird mix of all of the above well probably probably 99 percent of the time I'm on a guitar when I start but I might have an idea like I might especially

[00:10:44] like I might I might have a starting point where I have a couple of lines that have sort of you know appeared into my head and then I start I start working with these couple of lines or a

[00:10:54] title or something like I I have a new song called Princess NRP and I had this idea probably for five years like I kept I kept picturing you know the the fable where we where you have the princess

[00:11:09] in the pee where she you know she can't sleep because there's a pee underneath a mat in between a mattress and she's like on 20 mattresses but she can't sleep because she can still feel that pee

[00:11:19] and that's how come they know she's a princess is because she's so delicate she can feel it so I had this you know I had this image in my head for like five years and I wrote down Princess

[00:11:29] NRP and I I didn't know what to do with that and then finally this year I wrote this song you know but I had I had the title forever but I I get on a guitar and I start strumming some

[00:11:40] chords and then I start to coax the lyrics out of the guitar that's that's the way I kind of see it so I will literally sit and play a guitar for the the same chord progression for like eight hours

[00:11:53] coaxing lyrics out of the guitar so during that process then you just literally trying as much as possible just to be in that moment and not force anything exactly and be patient

[00:12:05] and the thing is you have to be patient and you also have to not worry about getting it right right off the bat you know I mean okay I think this is this is part of the problem that

[00:12:16] you know as a songwriter like I'll certainly edit as I go but a lot of the times I think that you know we we self edit in that we think like oh that's a dumb idea so you don't write it down

[00:12:30] and I mean what I'll do is all right the whole thing down and I'll worry about fixing it later because you know a couple of the lines are going to be killer you know there there'll be a couple

[00:12:40] that I know I'm going to want to keep but then there's other lines that are filler but it's like I'm not going to worry but I'm not going to let it stop me from creating I'm not going to

[00:12:48] stick my process in in in in halt mode because I'm trying to get every line perfect in real time that's a really good point I like that I like this idea a lot yeah just letting it flow

[00:13:03] not worrying about getting it spot on yeah I think that's a skill that I feel it has to be crafted right because I can imagine it's quite a lot of pressure especially as professionals on

[00:13:14] writer you're thinking I really want to get this down I really you know I want to get this next record done I want to get these ideas so I can imagine there's a lot of pressure in your head

[00:13:23] sometimes to go well if I just work really hard I'm sure I can force this in line to make it work well I mean in the more songs that you've written especially for myself like I've

[00:13:34] I've become sort of known for my lyrics you know it's it's what I'm known for and so you know especially when I'm in co-writing sessions you know like people are looking to me

[00:13:46] you know like you you such right such great lyrics that puts a lot of pressure on you as a lyricist because it's like you feel like every lyric has to be brilliant right and you know there's a simplicity to a brilliant lyric

[00:14:00] that you know you can't overlook and I think sometimes what happens is you start to become two things become too complicated you become too complex yeah and you're you know like I'm trying to be too clever

[00:14:12] as a songwriter right whereas sometimes like a simple line is exactly what's required and so that this whole idea that you let these things happen yeah and and don't get in the way of

[00:14:23] these things and you know if you need to if you need to refine a lyric after the fact you can but maybe simple actually works and you got to let it happen I like that a lot yeah simple works

[00:14:33] it makes sense and this idea as well of like constructing a song I think is such a fascinating thing and it might not be necessarily something that a lot of people think about when it comes to

[00:14:44] songwriting right I think some people just assume it's like like you're like the Beatles or something like it's just this mythical like I just had this idea and it all came out fully formed and then we

[00:14:53] recorded it whereas yeah I think the reality from what you're saying and from also speaking with other people on this series is it's that's not usually how it goes most of the time it is just

[00:15:03] that slow methodical construction and you've got to do a few things in the process like getting out of your own way for example yeah exactly I think there's very it's very rare that

[00:15:17] you're going to have a great song just come to you yeah I mean it does happen on occasion you know where you just sort of sit down and the whole thing came out but it's rare I mean I think most song

[00:15:26] writers if if they're being honest yeah you know they didn't just wake up with a fully formed song it's just not it's not what normally happens and anybody who's writing great songs exclusively like that I'd love to meet them because they're you know their reality they definitely are

[00:15:45] so sort of getting yourself into the mindset then of writing a song what do you like to do what's your approach well I like to start early in the morning that's that's probably

[00:15:54] the biggest thing for me is you know lots of people will have different times of the day that they like to write some people like to write in the middle of the night for me it's

[00:16:02] first thing in the morning it's like when I get up I want to start by writing I'm doing before I start thinking about anything before other things get on my mind

[00:16:10] I want to come into it with a clear head and so to me it's like when I get up and you know have my first cup of coffee and sit down with a guitar that's usually when I get I get the new idea

[00:16:21] so that's where I start with an idea I can finish a song in the afternoon but I can't usually start one in the afternoon I and that's why when I do co-writes I actually prefer to do co-writes

[00:16:33] in you know late sort of late morning versus doing it in the evening because I'm not at my best in the evening when it comes to creation that's really interesting that's something you've just

[00:16:42] learned about yourself over the years then yeah it's just some of my learning and it's like I'm like when I'm writing for a record especially if I've got a deadline which a lot of the times

[00:16:51] now I do that to myself you know I start at nine o'clock in the morning and I work at it from like like a nine to five job just sort of sit there for eight hours when work on songs for nine to five

[00:17:05] and then you know if I have a clock I stop yeah that's interesting I like that a lot I mean for one thing that the idea of being clear in the morning and doing that I think it's quite a

[00:17:16] unique approach I mean yeah that's one I as I'm listening this is I've explained on this these episodes a little bit selfish of me because I'm currently starting up and writing songs so

[00:17:27] this is partly me genuinely being interested in what people are doing and wanting to do a series and also I'm just stealing people's notes as I've got two shirts and but a morning writing I've

[00:17:38] not come across that yeah yeah I quite like that and I like the idea as well of treating it like her like a job I suppose that that idea of like you say giving yourself structure

[00:17:48] right so exactly so I guess my question is how do you sort of get the balance between having that structure but also letting the creative process happen? Well I mean I think this just a side dear that you know like when I sit down and I am

[00:18:05] I'm starting from scratch and I just have the guitar anything is possible and I think that being open to whatever's going to come to me is that pure creative process because it's like well

[00:18:19] you know what whatever I'm working on like oh I kind of like yeah I kind of like this sound of that little guitar riff I like the sound of this chord progression with this melody over top

[00:18:29] I'm not going to get in the way of that I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna run with it and I mean you know I know have the the the habit of always finishing any song that I start

[00:18:41] right that wasn't always then that wasn't always the case I didn't always you know finish every song I started but now I do that and it's like okay well even if I don't like the song

[00:18:51] and I don't keep it I might steal from it later there might be a couple of lines in it that are really good and I just steal from it okay so so I think just this idea of you know

[00:19:03] being completely open to what's coming to you and and again it kind of goes back to that idea of not self editing right because you can you can sort of look at a song and go well oh that's

[00:19:14] not a get song right right okay and but the thing is you know on its third or fourth rewrite maybe it becomes a great song I mean there are songs too though that I've written four or five times

[00:19:25] completely rewritten okay I completely read done there's a song that I just finished I just did a co-write with two other writers and I have I have written the song or different times

[00:19:37] like completely written the song okay because I had this idea for this song I've written it four times and I've even done a co-write with someone else completely finished the song and in every time

[00:19:48] I'm like I don't like this like it's it's a great idea but I don't like this version and then I finally sat down with these two song writers and we did this kind of like it's got a little

[00:20:00] bit of an iron beef field to it and it was like there's the song that's the correct that's the correct version of that song interesting interesting and I mean I'm talking like you could have

[00:20:11] recorded the other songs that's how finished they were yeah that's really interesting so to me that kind of says that you're very in tune with that creative instincts that you've got right and

[00:20:24] like learning to listen to that voice in your head that goes not quite but almost whereas you could just go I'm sick of this record it whatever it'll do yeah I mean a lot of the times I think

[00:20:37] as an artist you know what your best work is right but at the seat now and I say that you know there's going back to that song that I was telling you about the princess interview I thought it was a

[00:20:48] throwaway song I mean I wrote the song and I thought I was a throwaway I'm like this is not a great song it's it's simple because a lot of it is simple there were some really killer lines in it but

[00:20:58] you know some of the lyrics are really simple and the and the chord progression itself is really simple and the melody is simple but every time I played it for somebody they were like oh I

[00:21:07] love that song okay okay so I think that's another thing the was a songwriter you know we are our own worst critic sometimes and I think sometimes there's a huge benefit to taking a song

[00:21:22] that you've written and playing it for people and and trusting that process and you know it tests it out on some people and see what the you know if you especially if you have like kind of a

[00:21:32] trust a little circle of people yeah yeah you know I have a new song and I'm going to play it for you and people that will tell you not people that aren't just like huge fans that are going

[00:21:40] to say like I love it because they love everything you do you want someone who's actually going to say like well that's not your best work yeah which is hard to hear sometimes but you know

[00:21:50] that's a second you know it it is and the funny thing too though on that note you know I have a song and this new record that I'm working on where the producer did not like the tune and I'm like

[00:22:03] I get that you don't like it and I know why you don't like it but unfortunately this is going to be a song that's going to be very popular with people so it's not getting cut okay so you're just

[00:22:17] you're just gonna have to figure out how to produce this tune because it's going on the record yeah interesting interesting yeah you know that's something I was hoping to talk to you about and tap into is there this idea of working with producers and other creative influences

[00:22:35] making a record especially because someone like yourself as a kind of solo artist right and I'm a correct in assuming you're not a multi instrumentalist right just guitar yeah it's just because there's a lot of elements that go into your songs particularly the last two records

[00:22:51] those listening to them I could sort of hear you adding more layers and that's like this is really cool this is like well done she's experimenting trying things out like that's awesome but yeah I was it got me thinking like yeah what's that like going into a studio

[00:23:05] recording something like that versus like your first record which was very strict back and very just like you and a guitar and you know in your heart and that's it or is here you're going

[00:23:14] going why would I a keys and I want to add this drum and I want to add this bass and I you've got a producer yeah I'd love to know a bit more about what that's like sort of going into

[00:23:23] that process with all of your ideas as well and how to kind of mold them accordingly well I mean like picking someone to dress up your songs is an important step and I think

[00:23:35] you know it was very intentional for me in that I wanted these songs I didn't want them to sound I didn't want to sound like a folk record right okay and so I wanted it to have a contemporary

[00:23:46] kind of indie feel to it a little bit but still being an Americana approach to the lyrics and to the songwriting itself and so it's it's kind of a fusion of these of these styles where you

[00:24:00] have this kind of nitty or not nitty but like you have this gritty you kind of have this gritty dirt yeah in terms of the toughness of the lyrics but then you have this indie approach to you know

[00:24:11] having having keys and having lean a layer to guitars and things that you expect more are almost on the pop side of things on the indie side of things at least and it was with intent

[00:24:24] because I thought I want my songs to be dressed up in all their finest okay you know basically it's like I bring I bring a song it's like if it's a doll yeah you bring the doll when it doesn't

[00:24:38] have any clothes on it you bring it into somebody who's creative and you just say now I want you to put all the I want you to put all the clothes on this doll that you think the doll should

[00:24:48] wear to make it look cool right okay okay and then and then you really have to trust that producer you have to trust to your working with that they're going to give you something where it's going

[00:24:58] to reflect that the vision the vision that I have is going to be achieved yes yes that makes a lot of sense I have to say yeah because yeah something I'll wonder about with yeah I get a lot of my

[00:25:13] I actually have spoken to you so far sort of do that were they kind of focus on one singular instrument right that's their main thing that's their tool for writing the songs and crafting

[00:25:23] then bringing it to that team and as you say I love that expression yeah getting people to dress it up and enhance the song exactly I imagine it takes a lot of trust as well right because you

[00:25:32] sort of you're hoping that they're going to add things to it that enhance and not take away or distract you it really does take a lot of trust I mean and you don't always get you don't always

[00:25:45] get what you're hoping for like you know there's there's I'm not going to name or records but you know I do have I do have album is where I think the songs were better than the production

[00:25:56] okay that the production kind of came up short in terms of you know it could have been a could have been better and okay doesn't mean that my fans don't like the records because a lot of the times

[00:26:07] that's something that I hear it's not something that a fan is going to hear because the fans here the songs yeah yeah you know and especially you know when you're a singer songwriter a lot of the

[00:26:17] times they hear your voice and that's how they relate through through the music and the other stuff is just extra but you know as an artist you're just like oh man I think we could have done a

[00:26:28] better job the production on that you know I think I wish it had been a little bit more like this I wish it had been a little bit more like that yeah and I'm right in thinking when there's time

[00:26:36] goes on you have more experience with that you get to better idea of what you're looking for as well exactly exactly yeah and as far as that helps within the creative process right of working with those

[00:26:46] people because you can kind of guide them and direct them a little better and say this is what I'm after and it also helps you choose the right people oh yeah you know because just even even in

[00:26:56] terms of as a producer like you know when I worked on just words I chose Jim Bryson specifically because I knew what he would bring to the table now we self produced me in the guitar player

[00:27:08] self produced ice cream in November but I had a good idea in terms of what the sound that I was looking for to be able to dress these songs up I knew what I was looking for so I had a very good

[00:27:20] idea and then for this again this latest record I went back to Jim because I I wanted his sensibility back on this record I wanted I wanted what he does specifically you know to to be applied to this

[00:27:35] set of songs because on the latest crop of songs I've kind of gone back to my more Americana Roots because on ice cream in November I was doing a lot of co-writes with guitar player so they're

[00:27:47] they're quirky or songs they're a little different whereas I've I've kind of gone back to the way I you know the way I write consistently with with this just to pull it I record nice okay okay and

[00:28:01] you know what Lynn I was gonna ask you if you can give me a little education in Americana music because it's not something I'm very familiar with well I mean it's it's one of those

[00:28:12] catch-all categories um because if you listen to the body of work in Americana music like you're like wow it's all over the place in terms of the production you know sometimes it's really gritty and it's

[00:28:25] you know kind of guitar heavy and then other times it's like well this sounds a little bit bluesy and then other times it's like well this kind of sounds a little bit like pop but I think that the

[00:28:35] big thing with Americana music and what what makes Americana music it's what its personality is based on our lyrics that are tough lyrics that are kind of you know really cutting and capital T truth

[00:28:49] you know so you don't get a lot of fat in Americana the the the the the content tends to be pretty hard hitting and you know a little a fair amount of storytelling even if it's not a story song

[00:29:03] there is storytelling that's going on and so I think a lot you know imagery is important and things like that so um again even though there's a pretty wide there's a pretty wide spectrum in terms of

[00:29:16] what makes Americana as far as the sound is concerned I think there's a grittyness to it that underlies it at all times that makes a lot of sense yeah especially from the lyrical points

[00:29:26] if you I got to say I was finding myself really enjoying a lot of that listening to her's guy he has a lot of storytelling and really vivid imagery I'm getting from listening to these songs and

[00:29:35] I was wondering if that was an element of the style of music yeah that makes a lot of sense yeah lovely so is that what drew you to this sort of genre then it was actually something just

[00:29:47] kind of happened over time as you were learning the guitar and learning to sing you know it's funny there it was the record car wheels on a gravel road Lucinda Williams somebody gave it to me somebody

[00:29:58] back in like 2007 or something I can't remember what year it was but I listened to that record and I was like I can relate to the way that these songs are put together and that's kind of like

[00:30:14] where I started to sort of go into more of that style of writing because I think on my first couple of records it was a little more a country you know like not like contemporary not like new

[00:30:28] country the way it is these days but it was a little bit more like a country music and I think I started listening to that type of music and it was like oh that's what I want to be yeah that's

[00:30:39] what I want to be when I grow up you know buddy buddy and Julie Miller you know patty griff and like all these artists who you know with their lyrics they just they just paint the most exquisite pictures

[00:30:52] with with their lyrics right okay that makes a lot of sense because yeah I did a country episode about a year ago now and I was really interested to dive into that genre and I kind of heard

[00:31:03] that Americana was almost like another one of these like spin-off type genres I mean it's interesting as well talking about genre I find talking about it with different people for this series is it's

[00:31:15] it's a tricky one right because on the one hands it's useful because it kind of helps you get an understanding of what sort of wheelhouse we're playing in but of course everyone's approach

[00:31:27] to it's totally different right and there are new kind of sub-genre as being invented all the time like if you say to me Americana I can go okay go look up playlists and chances are they'll be you know

[00:31:37] 50 different artists with 50 different approaches and then someone else might come along and say well actually that person's more this type of Americana was that person and then before you

[00:31:45] know it you know I'm 20 sub-genre is indeed but I can be a little bit lost so I wonder for you as an artist how do you find sort of navigating that people kind of want to put you in a box

[00:31:56] or say what are you what are you what do you do and yeah how do you feel about that? Well you know it's funny because I was on a BBC show a few years ago and the guy said

[00:32:09] you know I know people want to compare artists you know who do they sound like he said I'm going to be just blunt and tell you that you don't sound like anybody you sound like you

[00:32:22] but the unfortunate thing is you know as far as the industry is concerned you do have to you do have to fall into a category and you do have to you know it's like recommended if you like

[00:32:34] you know like if you who do you sound like who who you know who who famous yeah can I can I reference that you know if I like Jason is Belle I'll like what you do that kind of thing you know

[00:32:47] someone who's more well known and I think that you know as an artist you you kind of have to find you kind of have to find some similarities to to other artists so that you can

[00:33:00] you can give that context to somebody because again I know nobody's heard of me nobody knows who I am but then they you know if they listen to the music they were like what I like this but together

[00:33:15] to listen to it it's like well why would I listen to this well if you like this artist then give this a chance yeah and it just I think it just helps to sort of set the context for

[00:33:26] a potential for someone to give it a lesson yeah I think that's fair I think I don't know personally I'm kind of more in this place now of I don't really care anymore I'm kind of more

[00:33:36] just like just give me a listen to it and I'll know if I like it or not in a couple of minutes you know like yes because as well the funny thing about that is that framing of oh if they're like so

[00:33:47] and so then you're like this it's like well how did so and so get to that place you know they got there because chances are they were different they were unique they brought something out that we

[00:33:57] hadn't heard before and as an audience just went oh this is new this is you know we like the sound of this for whatever reason now it's really successful and then all of a sudden you get this

[00:34:08] weird comparison that happens right to other artists and you could if almost like we've forgotten that well you should give these other people the same chance you should just be like well let's just

[00:34:17] give them a shot let's just hear what they have to say regardless of whether or not it sounds you know that means it's like it's just a very strange was like catch 22 we end up finding ourselves in

[00:34:27] with this kind of stuff but I like the way your friends know I totally agree I totally agree that I mean again I because I'm a sort of of the opinion like I don't know anybody that sounds I don't sound like

[00:34:38] anybody I mean I I try because I try I listen to whole bunch of different people I can say well from a songwriting perspective like if you're listening to the songs that I write you know some

[00:34:49] of these songs have a tendency towards but you know especially people ask who are your influences thinking that you're gonna sound like and they're good thinking that you're gonna sound like those

[00:35:00] people I'm like well my influences are you know such and such and such and patty Griffin okay cinnamon you know you know gillin well so I don't but I don't sound like these people I don't

[00:35:09] like if you put if you a b it it's like we don't sound the same at all because my voice is quite different and stylistically there's there's hints of it but you know they're not at at at all

[00:35:22] the same they don't sound the same but yeah it's it's it's it is a catch 22 I mean it's it's a it's a problem in that you know a lot of the times people do want to have that reference like well just

[00:35:35] give me something give me something to put you in a category yeah I call it box thinking it's just I want to understand what box this lives in it's like okay like you said like

[00:35:44] I kind of understand it but it's like yeah but by doing that you are missing out is that's what I've come to appreciate doing this entire podcast it's like oh I should stop doing that I should

[00:35:54] stop putting things in boxes especially with self-like music it's like yeah someone says Lynn Hanson let's go yeah okay I'll just listen yeah oh she's America she's country she's blues I don't

[00:36:04] care like yeah I'll just listen to it it's fine you know and I'll decide then and there whether or not I like it if I want to keep listening to it because yeah you said do you bring your own

[00:36:12] thing to it and I'm glad you brought up influences because that is a question I've been asking all of my guests and it's been really fascinating to explore this high idea of what you've just said

[00:36:21] really that I think we can all kind of I would say ignorantly think that oh you're influenced by this person that means you sound like but there's a chasm of difference right between influence and imitation yeah and I think that's the big differences there there influence means

[00:36:43] that you assimilate yeah it's like osmosis you know whereas imitation is like I'm emulating someone and and there's a huge difference to that I mean I always joke that you know I probably I probably have some of the same influences as some of these artists because that's where

[00:37:03] those similarities come from you know I listen I look I listen to a lot of jazz when I was younger I listen to a lot of bluegrass and so some of some of my melodic sensibilities come from that

[00:37:15] just some of the some of the melodic choices that I make are not you know based on you know popular music because they're coming from you know I like I hear intervals a little

[00:37:29] differently sometimes and that's where that comes from and you know it might make it sound a little bit like gillian waltz but I'd say not because I listen to gillian waltz that I sound like

[00:37:40] that it's because it's because I listen to some things like some maybe some bluegrass stuff maybe some of the same things gillian waltz listen to and so we have the same influences therefore

[00:37:51] we have some of the same tendencies yeah which I mean I find that's like that's probably the more fascinating way to look at something is like I wonder what their influences were

[00:38:01] that we end up having some of the same tendencies yeah I totally agree I think that's a that would be really interesting experiment and I suppose as well it was not even an experiment

[00:38:10] I think it's just listening to other interviews right I'm sure like you say if you listen back to those artists you could probably piece it together and yeah I mean I see that in this sort of

[00:38:20] genre as I hang out with with guitar when I'm listening to my musical hearers who are they listening to and then you kind of see oh that's where we all get that technique for

[00:38:29] on well that oh okay all right I mean classic example for guitar like where did everybody get fingers tapping from got it from Eddie Van Halen you know and here across the spectrum now

[00:38:38] of all sorts of music and it's like you know but again it's just a thing of like yeah because they were all influenced by that guy and he was influenced by like Led Zeppelin and Eric

[00:38:49] Capsen and people like that and it all comes around full circle so yeah I'm always interested to learn that as well I got to say but as what I suppose thinking about logically learning it would be

[00:39:01] it would be a disservice to you will also be incredibly frustrating I imagine if you were trying to write a song like one of your heroes right because you just end up going well this doesn't

[00:39:11] sound as good so why you know what I'm like doing well that's it but it's funny because when you do learn other people's songs and I'm lazy so I don't I don't do covers I don't tend to learn

[00:39:24] other people's music I have a hard enough time remember my own that's gonna say yeah yeah you've got like 20 years with if you're a music you think exactly but I mean listening to other people's

[00:39:34] music and you know and learning how to play them or learning how to how to you know just learning what they what kind of chord progression or whatever the case might be it will end up

[00:39:45] influencing your own music I mean it's funny because I've done stuff where I learned how to play a song and then I have gone in just taking that and changed it changed the groove you know same chord

[00:39:57] progression just changed the group yeah so now and now belongs to me and and that's what guitar I mean that's what guitar players do right like when you learn a riff you learn a riff and then

[00:40:07] from that riff you you you make it your own so you make a modification on it and all of a sudden not a unique riff because it's how it's how you're approaching that riff but I mean everybody

[00:40:17] plays the same blues riff you know like that little the little band you know that band everybody that the every and in an A-blue scale everybody does it well how you modify it is what

[00:40:28] makes it your own yeah no exactly exactly so I agree I agree I think it's always worth learning others people stuff for that exact reason that's one of my favorite reasons for learning to write

[00:40:39] or cover songs is just to get some of those things under my fingers and then later on see if it comes out somewhere else and you know you learn certain patterns as you say and then you can run

[00:40:50] off with it right and sort of what we were saying earlier you could just sit around and play with that and then see if that other part of your creative brain just kicks in and goes oh I've also got a melody

[00:40:58] for that I've also got a lyrics for that and then just follow that exactly that's really cool that's really cool I love it I want to talk a little bit about yeah your recent record which will be

[00:41:09] out fairly soon probably around the same time that I released this all things working on my end so I just wanted to check it and yeah learn a little bit more about what that process was like

[00:41:20] few what this what was different for you this time around you mean you mentioned going back to a previous producer yeah yeah yeah so we're just wrapping up the the recording now so it's supposed

[00:41:32] to be getting mixed as we speak really and it'll be coming out in the spring of 2024 so it may actually of 2024 I'll probably put a couple of singles out between you know March and April

[00:41:49] nice but it's you know it's it was just I had enough songs that I wanted to record and I just decided I really liked the way that just words came out in 2020 I did not want to record myself again

[00:42:07] I it was fun to do it once but it's it's a lot of work to self record and self produce and it's a lot of responsibility and I mean we were at it full time for three months and I just didn't want

[00:42:18] to do it again I wanted to have someone else you know drive the bus yeah and and again I like to with Jim did on just words so I thought well I think it makes sense to bring these songs to him

[00:42:29] and and see what he can do with them brilliant so we started yeah we started working on it in September we tracked the beds and then I was on tour in the UK for a month nice and it's been

[00:42:42] we've been kind of like it's peace mealing it you know over November December like a day here day there just kind of working on it so it's been it's sort of been a slow process but

[00:42:53] it's starting to wrap up really and brilliant so yeah I mean I've just run a work on bits of it whilst you were waiting did you sort of do that on tour was anything you like sending files back

[00:43:02] or sending ideas but no no we just we didn't work on it at all for the entire month of October yeah just let it sit and then when I got back in November we started working on it again okay

[00:43:15] that makes sense that makes a lot of sense so I mean yeah approaching the songwriting side of things this time around is it again pretty much the same process what you're saying before you just

[00:43:25] letting things happen and going with going with it going with the flow so to speak yeah I mean there's a few co-rites on the on the record so you know co-rites are always a different because you know you

[00:43:36] got to sit down and actually work with somebody else on something but just over half of them though there's solar solar rights so just me and yeah it was just that same process where I you know

[00:43:50] I just sat down and made it my job to work on these tunes because I knew I knew that I was going to be recording and I wanted to have I wanted to have enough songs to be able to

[00:44:01] choose from the you know not I don't want to record everything that I write yeah so I had a couple throwaways I think does that I'll try to sense it again is that something you'd recommend

[00:44:15] to people doing if they're going into a record is having a couple of songs that you could always ditch in the process I think you should I think you should always be prepared to you know to throw songs

[00:44:28] out okay I think it depends on how prolific you are I mean for some people writing 10 songs is like something that takes them years to do for other people that write 10 songs in you know in three

[00:44:41] weeks right it just really and so you know if you're a really prolific songwriter then you probably you know you might write 30 songs and choose 10 from 30 but if you're if you're more like

[00:44:52] me like I don't tend to write huge numbers of songs but you know when I'm writing it's like these these are songs are keep this is a keeper I don't I don't tend to write a lot of songs that

[00:45:06] I don't think are good okay just because it just doesn't work that way I mean I do obviously I always have you know I have a few songs that I wrote them but I don't think for that great but

[00:45:21] I tend to like I tend to be kind of someone who does edit as I go so I'm refining you know like I don't I don't just leave a song I refine a song so if through it if there was a good idea in there

[00:45:39] then I I do my best to you know to end up with a song that I'm proud of yeah based on that good idea it's just sometimes I will look and go well that's not such a great idea right so it's not it's

[00:45:52] it's not worth fixing but I will I fix songs okay that's interesting so yeah how do you sort of know them when one is worth fixing versus one it's just not worth it well I mean if I finish

[00:46:05] a song and I look at it and I'm like well that's you know it's not a great song I just know but then like well I mean when I said I rewrote a song four times yeah yeah I knew this was a good

[00:46:20] idea right but I knew that I missed on it I knew that I didn't get I didn't I didn't come up with a great song

[00:46:26] so I knew I had to try again and I just I just didn't I don't give up on it I just keep rewriting the song so sometimes that means writing with other people but sometimes it means me sitting down and actually rewriting a song

[00:46:37] like just just refining it like sitting down and going okay well this isn't working should I try different chord progression so I try a different feel and I've done that where it's like you know

[00:46:48] the first version of the song was me strumming it and then the ending result was me finger pecking it which gave it a different feel a different groove and the melody changed as a result hmm okay

[00:47:02] that's interesting so just literally taking a simple technique approach and just yeah yeah okay interesting so I'm curious when you go through all of that how do you know what a song is finished

[00:47:17] that's such a good question because it's it's to me it just like as a songwriter you know okay and I and I think like at this point in my career like I've I've gotten I mean

[00:47:29] this is gonna be my tenth record that I'm putting out um I know when I've written a song that I think it's good and I mean and the funny thing is as I've written a song where you know I've had someone else say well

[00:47:43] that's a good song like yeah but it's not it's not me you know it's not it's not it's not a song that I want to put out an impublic got you okay but then you know like when I have written a song that's like

[00:47:57] yeah that's that's a good song I just know it's a good song yeah interesting I guess yeah is that gut feeling literally then exactly you have to be able to trust yourself you have to be

[00:48:08] able to defend your thesis you know like somebody asked me like why is this a good song I need to be able to tell you why it's a good song yeah I need to be able to prove it and the thing is like

[00:48:19] when I'm looking at a song and it's like okay well why is this a good song well it's a good song because this this this this this this this this this and this and you know if if I can do that or a song

[00:48:28] then that's a good song okay all right now I like that I like that yeah be ready to defend your work it means yeah not an aggressive hostile way obviously no which is like if you if you yeah

[00:48:40] like if you had to go to bat for a song yeah why why is this a good song why should it be on the record which should be on the record because this lyric this you know this this is a really compelling

[00:48:52] this is a really compelling melody or the groove it's just so you know indisputable it it's like to not have it on the record would be such a shame yeah that to me that says that

[00:49:04] you really have to know what you're crafting and be passionate about it in order to do that which is great because that says you're not approaching it almost passively right and just being like oh yeah

[00:49:15] it's just another song or yeah whatever another record it's it's comes from within here exactly and I mean you know just because I think it's a good song too doesn't mean on

[00:49:25] someone else it's gonna think it's any good I mean or viewers might the reviewers might trash it but I don't I don't write for reviewers I don't worry I don't write for other people I mean

[00:49:37] other people listen to the music yeah um but it's not and I learned that a long time ago that those people can't be in the room when you're writing yeah because then you'll never write anything

[00:49:47] because nothing will ever be good enough that's a really interesting point yeah I it's again something that's come up a couple of times already and I yeah really curious to get your thoughts on this it's idea of navigating criticism and navigating yeah just people's receptions

[00:50:04] and sort of because again nothing can somewhere as people don't appreciate just how vulnerable you are as as somebody who's like why I'm sharing a piece of me with you like this thing this is why

[00:50:16] I love music so much this is like this song this idea has just come from within me it's like come literally out of nowhere I'm sharing this with you and then when you get people that can

[00:50:25] just be let's say less than kind you know or they perhaps don't get it and they're not willing to engage with it I see I'm curious just to how people including yourself navigate those those situations

[00:50:37] well I always say I don't I don't look at the good reviews and I don't look at the bad ones so in other words you can't get on that roller coaster you can't you can't take the you can't

[00:50:48] take reviews too seriously so somebody might say like this is just brilliant you are like the boss songwriter come across in a long time wouldn't not make you feel great but then the next

[00:51:00] person comes along and says you know this is pretty this is pretty basic stuff I mean it's it's a relevant you know it doesn't it doesn't have anything you redeeming to it at all you can't get on

[00:51:11] that roller coaster because it's really subjective especially songwriting so subjective yeah I mean it's just it's just not something that you can you can do and still maintain you know a good

[00:51:27] sense of self right if you're gonna get on that up and down so for me I mean I love getting a good review obviously yeah oh who does that yeah I mean it feels great it's like such an awesome feeling

[00:51:39] but at the same time you know you can't take it too seriously yeah because if you do I think that you you you just you risk being just driven all over the place with your emotions right yeah and as you

[00:51:51] say that that's definitely gonna have an impact on what you do moving forward absolutely yeah as far as yeah it's harder than to write from within and be genuine if you're you say constantly thinking about those people putting them in the room with you I like that expression

[00:52:07] no it's good it's good I wanted to ask about right co writing because yeah you mentioned it earlier and there was one of your albums why was it there it is yes seven deadly spins which by the way

[00:52:21] thought it was a great title really interesting album this listening through it and it's written with a band or a group known as good intentions I've got here okay yeah that's just the back that's just

[00:52:36] backing band right yeah but I mean was that written with more sort was that another co writing one or is that one that was just there's a few co-writes on that one so I want to ask about this and

[00:52:47] about you're the songs on your new album in that vein yeah what that's like working with someone else versus just creating something purely for yourself well I mean you know when

[00:53:02] you have the benefit of another writer or two even you get there there is like a synergy that happens I think that you know there's advice out there that if you want to write a better song

[00:53:16] right get a co-write because two two heads are better than one that doesn't mean that every co-write is going to be a positive experience because it's it's kind of like dating really I mean

[00:53:30] you know you go into a session and if it goes terribly there's not a shower long enough to get the feeling off of you it's just such a horrible feeling but when you know when it goes well

[00:53:42] it's just like you're on the biggest high because you have this you know you have this collaboration with this other person that you you're making something that's bigger than just you and uh

[00:53:54] you know like sometimes I co-write with my guitar player and he doesn't write lyrics and he doesn't sing so basically you know he might provide some music to me and then I write the vocal melody

[00:54:08] and I write the lyrics on top of that and that's a totally different process than when I'm sitting down with a pure singer solenoid or we're both sitting there with an acoustic guitar and

[00:54:18] kind of coming up with a song together it's a totally different uh experience and sometimes you know you're when you're writing with somebody they might do more of the heavy lifting with the lyrics

[00:54:30] sometimes they might do more of the heavy lifting with melody and then you're doing more of the lyrics so it just it really depends you know sometimes it's just the different session because I've written with people on more than one occasion like like I've done co-writes with somebody

[00:54:46] repeatedly and in different instances we we've got we're wearing different hats. Okay so it really depends sometimes on the song itself in terms of who does what but uh again I think that that collaboration it just allows you it brings something different to a song and it just

[00:55:05] it allows you to benefit from somebody else's skillset. Now I I still enjoy writing songs by myself though and I think some people kind of are hung up on the idea that I can't co-write with someone else

[00:55:19] because I have to be able to write songs on my own well again if you if you want to write a better song have somebody else in the room but that doesn't mean that you can't write

[00:55:30] it great song in your own. I just again I think that there's two different there's two different approaches to being able to write a song and yes and they both they both have benefits.

[00:55:39] Okay yeah that makes a lot of sense and it reminds me of a similar conversation I had recently which I probably come out just before this actually. And I asked this person it basically about collaboration and saying

[00:55:55] what I was getting from their answer and what's what I'm getting from yours is really you have to have in mind what's best for the song like how do we service the song and I would assume that

[00:56:06] that would make it easier than for you to let go of egos right to let go of preconceived notions of no no I write the lyrics or no no I write the melody to just oh that's a good idea we should

[00:56:17] follow this and then you know vice versa. Yeah I mean the the the cardinal rule for cat for co-writing is there's no such thing as no there's no such thing as the word no okay like that's

[00:56:31] that's not a good idea should never come up in a correct because you know you don't everyone have cut off someone else's input like especially because you might not you might not

[00:56:47] you might not go down the right direction right at the beginning and if all of a sudden it's like well no no it's not like that's it should be this the other person's gonna just shut down

[00:56:56] and so you always want the other person to feel like it's a safe space that to be able to have any kind of a suggestion or any kind of an idea and you know even if it's not the one

[00:57:07] that you run with you're able to have those conversations whether it's musically whether it's learically you know like whatever the component is that you're working on and again I think if you come in with any kind of preconceived notion you're just limiting you're limiting

[00:57:22] with that synergy might be right okay yeah so you can discover those things together basically yeah and I like that and because I feel like that would be something I would worry about it's being a

[00:57:37] session even just discovering doing this un-stressed stress I'm at the beginnings ages of this with my friends is that kind of thing of yeah how do you sort of get across your gut feeling

[00:57:51] of I don't know if that's gonna work but I like what you're saying which is just follow it just see where it goes and I'm remembering right in thinking then that if you do that

[00:58:00] you'll probably both come to the same conclusion naturally anyway if that synergy is just flowing you'll you'll follow it and then go out you know well actually or if saying that you either think

[00:58:11] okay this isn't work or you might discover something else yeah I mean I think you're going to come to a conclusion right yes that's you're going to come you're going to come to the conclusion that

[00:58:20] you should come to but it's like you're not you're not going to have one person sort of you know taking over the session because I've been in sessions where you know the other writer was

[00:58:35] a little bit of a bully and I just shut down I mean you know I finished the session and we finished the song or whatever but it's wasn't fun and it's probably not the best song it's not as good

[00:58:45] of a song as it could have been and that's because at some point my voice got lost in the whole mix right okay oh that's that's really interesting yeah I imagine as well for sort of

[00:58:59] feature projects right that would make it incredibly difficult as well because you might think I don't really want to work with this person again oh and and I had that situation because

[00:59:09] I wrote a song with someone and it didn't you know it wasn't a good session we ended up we ended up trying to write the song again but we did it remotely so it was just like piece

[00:59:21] me oh back and forth sort of so we didn't have to be in the same room and then the the writer asked if we would get right another song together and I was like you know I said yes and we kind of

[00:59:34] tried and but then it was the same experience and so we just never we just never finished other song and it was just because they just were too pushy and I didn't I didn't enjoy the

[00:59:46] experience that's far as again it's you know it's it's really important that when you're in these co-writing sessions and these collaboration sessions that everybody has an opportunity to bring their best to the table and and a lot of the times that means you got to let the other

[01:00:02] person you know have equal time you know equal time on the mic yeah that makes a lot of sense yeah again because it's about creating something right exactly yeah and I imagine that's

[01:00:17] well from what I'm getting from this is that's a skill you've got to develop learning how to collaborate with other people absolutely I mean the first time I ever tried to go right it was a disaster

[01:00:27] but you two pushy lines are what happened no I was just like I didn't know what I was doing so it was like was just we wrote such a bad song it was such a bad song and I'm assuming it will

[01:00:40] never see the light of day you'll never see the light of day fair enough fair enough not after like another four rewrites you just you left that one no it was good it was a really bad song really

[01:00:50] bad song fair enough I want to ask about life performances then because I feel like it's a really interesting one to discuss without a sit-side deer you spend so long crafting something right you

[01:01:02] go through this journey of like you say discovering it for yourself working with other people doing all of that and now you've got to take it out and share it with people so I want to know what that

[01:01:11] experience is like for you well for me performance is just it's a way to pay the bills I mean okay you know you got you got to play got to play gigs to make money true if I could sit at home and just

[01:01:24] write songs and someone paid me to just do that to be 100% honest I would never leave my out because you know touring is hard it's it's a lot of work it's it's grueling and it's exhausting

[01:01:38] and I mean I love playing for people don't get me wrong I really do and I think I'm pretty good at it but you know it's it's just one of those things where if you don't bring the songs out they never

[01:01:51] get hurt by anybody and the songs themselves I owe it to the songs to let them to be heard by people you know they were kind enough to give themselves over to me now it's my job to let other people

[01:02:03] hear about them so you know it's another way of servicing that song is it's to actually bring it out in public and share it with people and let it be let it be heard you know but I mean you know

[01:02:17] what the world of touring hasn't gotten easier it's it's just gotten more difficult at over time and so you know I don't think there's I don't think there's too many artists that

[01:02:28] you know say like I love everything about touring because they're lying I mean I mean maybe if you're like you know 20 years old and you just you don't mind sleeping on couches and you know

[01:02:42] making $15 and you know like all all the things that can happen when you're touring at this point in my life it's just like another plane another plane ride you know all the backline all the expenses involved all the logistics it's it's so a lot of hard work and

[01:03:05] 90% of the time that's invested is not spent on stage if I could just get on stage and play that would be awesome but it's all the other things that go into it that make it a job

[01:03:18] and and if you're being 100% honest I think as an artist then then you you acknowledge those those things you have to do and I think the audience a lot of the times they don't realize

[01:03:29] it's not about the two hours on stage it's it's the other 22 hours yeah and and there's a lot there's a lot that goes into that and so you know again if it was if I just could do

[01:03:41] the two hours on stage I would be the happiest person in the world but it's you know it's everything else that goes into it yeah yeah it's a it's a lot I got to admit I've had the privilege

[01:03:52] of speaking with a few people in life settings and like festivals and stuff and it's quite an eye opener yeah to hear so that's like because I think you're right I think we all kind of get there

[01:04:03] the kind of rock star view right off like yeah it must be great they get to come on and do this and I think musicians in general songwriters I love what you just said a second ago

[01:04:15] have that feeling of I owe it to the songs I want to give back I want to share this with people and you can tell right you can tell when somebody's genuinely in that space being like I love

[01:04:24] this is awesome but that's only a short amount of time as you say so that's that's fair that's completely fair to highlight I want to focus on those two hours and just sort of asking what that's

[01:04:36] like in terms of sharing those songs with people I want to know what that experience is like for you specifically because I've asked this to different people and I get different answers every time

[01:04:46] when I'm always interested to learn how people feel when they're performing these songs in front of people well I mean it's it's a very present feeling I mean there I don't think there's anything more

[01:04:59] it's in the moment it's so in the moment when you're playing these songs for people because you know I'm playing I'm presenting this song to an audience in real time so like every note

[01:05:13] as it comes out it's happening in this moment got you and so when I'm playing it's like it's almost an auto body experience because it's like I'm I'm presenting this song for the first time

[01:05:29] to this in this particular situation so even if it's an older song there's something to that it's like this is the first time it's been played like this yeah and so you know there there is something

[01:05:41] really magical about live performance because it's very much in the moment I mean if you could spend your entire life just living in the moment with no other concern except for what you're doing at

[01:05:52] this moment in time I mean that is what makes live performance magical is it's just about right here right now and that's special and you're and you're doing something that you love I mean I love

[01:06:04] my songs yeah yeah so you know getting to play them and doing that in that moment it's like this is the best thing ever because I love these songs because you know songwriting is what I love

[01:06:18] the most about my job and so getting to play them is just like the best thing ever yeah and what's it like I suppose when people come up to you afterwards and maybe share their expressions

[01:06:30] about what they feel about it certain song I imagine that must be quite a cool moment as well you know it's a really it is a really great feeling it's like having people come up to you and say like

[01:06:40] especially when they I find the biggest things when they actually will co-delare back to me which I find so surprising it's like oh that song you know like my heart's fade you know that oh

[01:06:53] that line that you said is like oh my gosh and you're just like really you hurt that there is no better compliment no bigger compliment that you can get as a songwriter than have somebody you know

[01:07:04] basically quote a line back to you after a show yeah he's then you know that you've made this incredible connection yeah you know when you get you know getting a standing ovation after you finish

[01:07:14] playing a show is it's again it's the biggest compliment you can possibly get because it's like I made this incredible connection so much so that people want our side that it's over yeah

[01:07:27] you know that's it's a great feeling and so when people come up to you after a show and they want to talk about the songs and you know they they want to talk about the performance you just know

[01:07:36] that you've made this connection and there is something really really special but you can't get that kind of connection any other way no it's really it really is special I mean it's why I keep

[01:07:46] doing it I just five minutes ago I complained so much about things that are hard about touring but why do I keep doing it and it's those moments it's exactly the moments yeah well that's it

[01:07:57] that's the thing where you can acknowledge the reality of yeah it's hard there are difficult things about it and that goes for anything in life right if you've got a pursuit is always going to be

[01:08:07] yeah if I could remove this element like I love my love podcasting but I'm not going to lie editing is dull. I've been to do that but I get a kick out of sharing it and for you to do that

[01:08:18] as like performance yeah they're rehearsing yeah the touring you know that but yeah that's why I ask that question because I've asked it's everyone else and it's been really lovely to hear that and

[01:08:27] here everyone's experience of just saying yeah I have so much fun on stage or I have this like out of body experience or like I'm so present and that that theme keeps coming up I'd bite that

[01:08:38] just sharing a part of you with a person and then getting that response back and the word I keep using as cheesy as it is is magical that's the only way I could describe it is it's just

[01:08:49] yeah because it's just mental to me that like well it's insane magical I'm not using all sorts words now but I'll go with magical because I think it is to say that like you have sat there

[01:09:01] and then gone this thing has just come out of me from either this experience in my life or a vision in my head I've worked with all these people I've put it I'm sharing it and a me or someone else

[01:09:11] and the audience will come up to you and go this is what this meant to me this is what I like like you said that connection mind blowing mind blowing is why I'm doing this series because I'm

[01:09:20] like I'm just fascinated to learn about it and where it all comes from and yeah it's really exciting to hear and I'm glad that you're not giving up on it that's the thing I'm glad that you're like

[01:09:29] yeah it's worth it though it's worth it that's really cool I wonder about your life performances because of the nature of your songs and the different approaches that you do with production

[01:09:43] first of all what do you like to do in terms of life performance would you like do you prefer to have a band with you or would you like to go up on your own with a guitar and just so though

[01:09:53] I mean if I can do a band I always prefer to play with a band but I mean financially it just doesn't make sense these days yeah yeah post post pandemic it's just the expenses that

[01:10:04] involved with touring with a band are just so astronomical so you know I've do a lot of dual shows and and I sometimes play solo and you know when I started doing solo shows again it was kind of

[01:10:16] I was kind of like oh gosh you know what is this going to be like but there is something really special about being reduced back down to just playing you know just me and a guitar and presenting these

[01:10:28] songs because it's in their most naked form so if I can put on a show that people love and it's just me and a guitar then not just you know that's when I'm with the most proud of the songs that I've

[01:10:41] written because they must be good songs if they don't need anything but me because you know if they were a great song then people would be bored after a few songs they'd be like oh this is

[01:10:53] boring it's just you know a woman in a guitar how how boring is that but if if the songs are compelling then you know then it's enough to have a solo performance yeah and and I think you know

[01:11:07] that that makes it pretty special is is when I can play a solo show and actually get that kind of response and and just know that okay well I guess my songs are good it must be yeah absolutely

[01:11:20] it's the core of what it is right you like you say you don't really as extra layers to it yeah that's yeah I was not saying fret of me notifying yeah I mean again it's a lot of fun to play with a full

[01:11:32] band I love playing with full band it's it's a lot of fun it's it's way more fun from from a musician perspective right but as a songwriter again being able to be successful as a solo songwriter or

[01:11:45] duo you know because I do a lot of duo shows there's something to be sad about that because it just kind of let's you know that you know okay I must be a good songwriter if people like my shows

[01:11:56] when there isn't a lot of flash no yeah I agree I agree and someone who goes to a variety of shows like yeah I gotta say solo performances I always find really really interesting you know I don't

[01:12:09] we wrong I love a good production I'm sure we all do right we love a full band I'm seeing a band tomorrow and I know it's gonna be bells and whistles lights you know that the works but then a couple

[01:12:20] weeks ago I went and watched like a chalice and then acoustic guitarist just doing their own thing with and it was brilliant you know and there's just something about that where it pulls you in

[01:12:30] very intimate and I guess as well for your style of music being Americana right and being so heavily involved with the lyrics and what they're all about having that intimacy I think helps as well

[01:12:43] right I think that would definitely translate quite nicely yeah it's funny because when I play solo it's just about the song right you know there's there's there's nothing but the song and you know

[01:12:55] when they show goes over really well you're just like really like really you really like that because as a songwriter right I mean I always like I don't I don't see my song this being special

[01:13:08] because I'm the songwriter I wrote them so how special can they be it's something I created but then to somebody else these songs are special like they are great and they're yeah it's so again it's like it's a weird thing because for me it's just what I do

[01:13:26] but for another person that to use your words it's magical yeah that's what I mean this is what I mean it's yeah this is why I love it it's why I love it so much it's why I will just forever

[01:13:37] love life performances and the other thing about it and I want to ask you about this is I fight the approach to the songs as time goes on because you mentioned it at the start and I think

[01:13:49] it's a completely fair point you're obviously a very different songwriter now compared to what you were you know even that's a two years ago right never mind 1020 or so so I'm curious

[01:14:01] if you have a perform older songs do you sort of try to approach them differently now life just or think I'm I'm be change up the arrangements or I'll just sing this differently or just

[01:14:12] call you just trying to do it as close as you can to the original and just keep it simple for my older songs the ones that for the older songs that still make the set list they get played

[01:14:23] the way they were written okay but the fact that they're still on the set list means that they're the best right old style yeah yeah so so those songs they they will stand the test of time

[01:14:34] they're kind of like you know like if you if you had a best of album they would be on that best album because it's not it's not like the secondary songs that stay on

[01:14:45] it's the secondary songs that get burnt yeah you know they get they make way for new stuff because again the set list is always I'm trying to build a set list that reflects the best

[01:14:57] the best of what I've done and how do you know when a song is made it on start list I just know that's fair that's fair okay I'm over where like doing the series that I'm

[01:15:12] gonna get that answer a lot. I'm not sure what part of it too though is like when all players are show somewhere and I'll be like okay well now I'm gonna play we're gonna start the

[01:15:23] set off with a song called River of Sand and people will applaud yeah that's yeah so they're looking for me here and like yes so even though they've heard me play it before are they're like yay

[01:15:33] this is one of my favorite songs and I mean people will tell me that too they'll say like you know long way home is just such a brilliant song and so when I get that kind of feedback

[01:15:43] that just reinforces that that's a that's a keeper that's a song that's gonna stick around for a bit sure sure yeah and I guess in that as well you're learning not to be too precious with the

[01:15:53] others right not being like that. I really like this one I want I'm gonna keep bringing it on the road until they eventually like it's like it's fine it's not working or it's not quite cached

[01:16:05] on the way that another one has that's fine. I don't know I mean and there are times when I'm a little bit surprised it's like yeah you know I think this is a this is a great sign

[01:16:16] I'm not sure why it doesn't go over better like I don't understand it and sometimes I'll work on the intro mm okay you know it's to to to okay because that intro with life performance the

[01:16:31] intro's important and sometimes it's like well maybe if I have a better intro if I have a better intro it'll call attention to the things that I think are really good in this song and then the audience

[01:16:41] will hear it. Right and sometimes that works okay interesting interesting yeah I'm curious I'm curious I'm curious to know an example yeah going well let me think I have to I have to

[01:16:57] do that I would have to really think about a song that I thought was lukewarm until I had a really good intro for it and then well okay I'll retract that for you so when you say that about changing the intro is that changing the arrangement specifically then

[01:17:12] also of going I'm gonna bring out maybe just I'm gonna sing the first melody just on its own or I'm just gonna play this guitar part just on its own just to kind of highlight it is like what

[01:17:21] you mean no I mean the actual intro how I introduce the song oh right okay how I actually introduce the song yeah I mean because it's like when you're introducing a song you're saying like

[01:17:33] I'm about to play a song and and it's about this or I'm about to play a song and here's a story that's gonna make you laugh right and because I made you laugh you're gonna listen yes okay okay yeah

[01:17:47] yeah you're gonna listen closer and you're gonna hear something that you maybe would have gone over your head because it's the first time you've heard it and it's and again lyric heavy songs

[01:17:57] they're demand quite a bit from the audience so it's like like I like I have a song called the Rines Belt and it's it's really heavy song it's really heavy song

[01:18:06] literally I think it's one of the best songs that I've ever written but I'll be I was playing it for a while and and you know I didn't feel like people were really getting it and they weren't

[01:18:16] listening and then I started giving a really personal introduction right okay and people really related to that personal introduction and then they would say like oh I really love that song Rines Belt it's beautiful because it's a really sad song and it's beautiful but it has these

[01:18:34] as he's lines in it that are just you know they're just to me they're breathtaking and as a song ready you're just like I can't cut this song because it's it's a good song it's a great song

[01:18:48] and I really want people to hear it so I mean I left it in the setlist and I just I tinker'd with that introduction for like six months before I sat along one hmm okay

[01:18:59] fair enough I like that it's a really good point I think I's pro tip for anyone listening yeah if you really want to make a song stick give it a good story before you introduce it that's cool

[01:19:11] I think you're right yeah definitely like nicely sets the stage and people's expectations for it for sure hmm there you go this is what I love about this Lynn is I every genuinely every conversation

[01:19:23] I've had I've learned something new about people's approaches okay and again for me I'm like yeah I'll bank that amazing so I think just to kind of wanting things down I wanted to talk

[01:19:36] really about yeah back in New album just give you a chance to plug it a little bit more and just say yeah what that process was like for you and if there's anything about that I'll match

[01:19:44] Lee John I'll try this again I'd love to give you the chance to just hype people up a little bit more for the new album and just tell them what they can expect from it then and sort of that sort of thing

[01:19:58] well I mean I'm really excited about the new record I think they're you know there I really have gone back to my American roots on it in terms of the you know the song content is is

[01:20:10] you know it's it's got a lot of grit to it and I'm I'm pretty excited for people to hear it I mean there's a little bit of Bonnie right to it there's a little bit of the send it to it

[01:20:20] there's little Jason is belt to it it's got a lot of these really you know like really kind of Americana type approaches to both the son writing but also some of the some of the approach to the

[01:20:38] to the production even though it's got like a bit of an indie band to it we went a little bit more streamlined in terms of the production okay so it's a little bit more old school so I think

[01:20:50] again I think people that were fans of like river of sand and and and just words it's kind of a fusion of those two approaches and I think you know again I think I think it's got a lot of

[01:21:02] good content on it so I'm I'm excited to share it because I mean you should say that about every record I mean he's like I'm gonna put a record out and it's not gonna be very good yeah I mean

[01:21:12] you're you're always super excited about new material yeah but uh not just I think I'm really proud of the song writing on this record I think it's you know I think it's I think it's really it's really

[01:21:25] something that I I I whip again I whip back to my I like I dislike the idea of going back to my roots so I'm hoping especially people that have been fans of my music for a long time are going to be

[01:21:37] pleasantly surprised brilliant well I'm certainly looking forward to hearing it um yeah I also said genuinely been really enjoying listening through listen again ever since we spoke I've been really enjoying checking out your music because there is a new genre for me to enjoy and I really like

[01:21:53] what you do and I'm not just saying that because you're here and you've played enough to come on this show I really enjoy it I really enjoy it also want to give a little nod to on your last album

[01:22:04] I should be no member you did a song in French but I thought it was phenomenal I just yes I was one of the last songs I heard I was pulling into the driveway and I was like oh

[01:22:12] yeah I forgot about this song and so yeah play that's amazing it's funny because I forget that I did a song in French all the time too if you have put with Paul that one out live oh yeah oh yeah I've plugged she I played in Paris

[01:22:26] it was like one of that one you know people ask what are your highlights and getting to play that song in Paris introduce it in French and sing it in French was probably

[01:22:35] one of the highlights of my career it was just such a it was just such an incredible experience you know yeah to be able to get that opportunity that is it's not something you hear every day so yeah

[01:22:45] that's really cool and I imagine for that audience as well they're probably used to hearing English or American you know oh they're not so they were like whoa what

[01:22:54] they love they absolutely love that really and love that well on that no I just want to hand it back over to you Lynn is there anything else you want to talk about in terms of song writing or

[01:23:03] anything I've missed before we got off close out here I think we talked about an awful lot about songwriting and I could talk for days on it because it's just my it's my favorite thing in the

[01:23:15] entire world so I really appreciate the opportunity to actually get to sit down and and talk about songwriting because it's again it's just it's my passion well I appreciate you giving me your insights and your experience genuinely it's been really fascinating so I guess to close out

[01:23:30] then where can the good people find you know if you work we've told them we've got an album coming out where can they go and get ready for that well the best place to go is my website Lynnhanson.com

[01:23:41] I mean it's where all the information is and sign up for the mailing list so that you know when things are dropping and when things are going to be available and and that's the easiest thing

[01:23:52] people could do really and while I'll make sure to put links in all of that in the show notes for people and what's left to say is just thank you for coming back Lynn. All right well thanks for having

[01:24:00] me. And there we have it thank you so much Lynn for coming back onto the podcast and sharing your insights with songwriting I really enjoyed having this conversation with Lynn and I hope that you

[01:24:13] guys listening enjoyed it too please do yourself a favor and go and check out Lynn's music if you haven't already she has a brand new album coming out on May 24th it is called just a poet and you

[01:24:24] can order it via her website or save it on your favourite streaming platform I have left links in the show notes we can go and do that she has also put out two brand new singles in the run-ups of

[01:24:33] this outlaw lover and cant let go of both available on your favourite streaming platforms or again on her website and youtube channels make sure you go and check them out they are really great songs

[01:24:44] and I honestly think this new album is going to be fantastic and I can't wait to hear it so make sure you go and check those out and if you'd like to see Lynn live then definitely go and check

[01:24:54] out her website and social media pages so you can keep up to date with any upcoming shows. At the moment she has announced a tour across the Netherlands and Germany in April and she's

[01:25:04] heading out to Colorado in May but I imagine there'll be quite a few more tour dates coming as well so if you're anywhere near those locations go and check her out and if like me you're not then just

[01:25:15] keep an eye on her social media's website so that you don't miss out on your opportunity to see Lynn perform her incredible music live when she comes through your hometown links are in the

[01:25:24] show notes if you'd like to go and check that out thank you so much for checking out this podcast if you have enjoyed this episode then please do go back and have a listen to one of the many

[01:25:34] episodes I have available on this feed there are now over 100 feet to listen to this current season focuses on songwriting I've had some wonderful guests on and I've got a few more coming up which

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[01:27:27] of this very episode you can also find links to the donation pages or the merchandise pages for this podcast featuring the fantastic artwork designed by one Alex Jenkins his details are also in the show notes right that's enough from me i'll be back next week with another returning

[01:27:45] guest of the podcast sharing their insights into songwriting so make sure that you are following subscribed whatever it is you have to do so that you do not miss out on the upcoming episodes

[01:27:56] they really have been absolutely fantastic and I cannot wait to share with you the rest of this season so until then take good care of yourselves have a great week go and listen to Lynn Hancens incredible

[01:28:07] music and I'll meet you right back here for another episode of fandom entals