El Cid (1961 Movie)

[00:00:10] Hello and welcome to Fetch The Smelling Salts, I'm Alice

[00:00:13] And I'm Kim and this is our podcast, all about historical dramas from movies and TV shows

[00:00:19] The mini series from every era and all around the world.

[00:00:23] Hooray and we're back from our holidays!

[00:00:26] Oh and what a holidays we had!

[00:00:28] Oh what a roller coaster there were ups they were down, there was travel.

[00:00:32] We almost lost one of the podcast.

[00:00:34] Oh yes!

[00:00:37] Suzy came down with gallstones, he's fine now though.

[00:00:41] He's back to being a bad bitch and we have dragged with us back from our holiday

[00:00:47] a very special guest.

[00:00:49] We're very excited about, we have a real historian with us, her name is Clara Chamberlain

[00:00:56] and she is a cultural historian of the medieval and early modern Mediterranean

[00:01:01] with a specific interest in Spanish imperialism.

[00:01:06] That's impressive, that's so cool!

[00:01:08] Right now Clara is doing her PhD at the University of East Anglia and for that, Kim and I feel

[00:01:15] for her very deeply because we've been there and it is not easy.

[00:01:21] So Clara, can you tell us a little bit about your research and how it came to be that we are all

[00:01:30] watched, ill-sid?

[00:01:32] Of course!

[00:01:32] So essentially ill-sid is a Spanish historical figure from the 11th century who has been

[00:01:39] steeped in mythology really essentially after he died which was in 1099.

[00:01:45] And for some reason the facts of his life story seem to have really quickly captured

[00:01:50] the local imagination and become the raw material for all of this incredible medieval

[00:01:55] literature.

[00:01:55] So it includes ballads that were sung in taverns, works of history and also what we call

[00:02:02] Chivalric romances which is essentially a concern with the rule book on how to be a good

[00:02:07] knight and thus how to be a good man really.

[00:02:10] And even though that ideal really changes over time, ill-sid is one of those figures that's

[00:02:15] held up again and again as the perfect example of knightly conduct.

[00:02:20] So what that means is that successive generations of people have used this story to try

[00:02:26] and pinpoint what makes a good sort of bloke really.

[00:02:29] And if we fast forward 400 years from the death of the cid, my current research is looking

[00:02:34] at how the conquistadors in the new world tried to use this kind of popular heroic literature

[00:02:41] while they were writing their own stories of what they were getting up to in the Americas

[00:02:45] essentially.

[00:02:47] So this process of reinterpreting heroes and reinterpreting the cids specifically is hundreds

[00:02:53] of years old and eventually it leads us to the 1960s and this film that we're going to talk

[00:02:58] about today which is an American attempt to reimagining this exact same character.

[00:03:03] So you've got these guys in your research who are conquistadors who are going over to

[00:03:10] this now Latin America and doing some pretty fucked up stuff.

[00:03:15] Some genocide, some being a dick all around but at the same time they're writing their

[00:03:22] own narratives.

[00:03:23] But how wonderful they are.

[00:03:25] Yeah and they're using L-sid, they're using this guy as like this chivalric prototype.

[00:03:32] Pretty much.

[00:03:33] I mean for a long time these romances of shivari that chronicle the deeds of these great men

[00:03:39] were pretty much exclusive to the aristocracy because obviously these are the only people that

[00:03:43] could read in the early medieval period.

[00:03:46] But there's a huge turning point around 1492 not just with the discovery in the

[00:03:51] Vaticanas of the Americas but also in terms of reading culture because all of a sudden

[00:03:56] books can be printed.

[00:03:58] So lots and lots of different people have access to reading for the first time and a lot

[00:04:03] of the conquistadors and not that rich, they're not that noble and they're not really

[00:04:08] the good sort of bloke.

[00:04:09] I mean we know that.

[00:04:10] Like you said genocide, people don't do that.

[00:04:13] But these tales kind of give them if you want the furniture that they're putting in

[00:04:19] the house when they're like furnishing their own narratives when they're trying to make themselves

[00:04:24] sound like heroes it's kind of the models of the past that they're looking to that help

[00:04:30] them to do that.

[00:04:31] Also it isn't the only one but he's one that comes up quite a lot because at this

[00:04:35] point, a really live debate is kind of what it means to be Spanish.

[00:04:39] What we think of as Spain hasn't existed for very long.

[00:04:42] For centuries before Spain has been lots of different kingdoms patched together.

[00:04:47] Spain only comes into being in the 1400s.

[00:04:51] So this discussion about what it means to be a Spaniard, what it means to be a heroic

[00:04:55] expanded is really live at this time when the empires just getting up and running.

[00:05:00] And figures like El Said, reimagining them as national heroes is a really important

[00:05:05] part of that process.

[00:05:07] So brilliant.

[00:05:08] So now that we've all watched El Said which took about 15 hours.

[00:05:13] Should we have Kim summarized it for us?

[00:05:16] Yes.

[00:05:16] So Clara, as we're doing the summary, please feel free to jump in at any point.

[00:05:22] Okay.

[00:05:22] Because I will.

[00:05:25] Okay.

[00:05:26] So here's my summary.

[00:05:27] So we are in medieval Spain, sometime in the 11th century and general Ben

[00:05:32] Yusuf of the El Maravit dynasty in North Africa is not happy that the lots of

[00:05:38] alandulus are living peacefully with their Christian neighbors.

[00:05:42] So you basically tell them that you know in the name of Allah, you know, they need to

[00:05:46] fight these Christians while he plans this invasion of Spain.

[00:05:50] So they go and do just that.

[00:05:52] So I was a bit confused about the political situation at a time.

[00:05:57] Clara, can you help me out with that?

[00:05:58] We can absolutely break that down.

[00:06:00] So like you said, Spain doesn't exist.

[00:06:03] What we think of as Spain doesn't exist.

[00:06:06] The northern part of the peninsula is split into several different Christian

[00:06:10] kingdoms and the complex relationships between them are pretty, they're pretty

[00:06:13] fraught to be honest.

[00:06:15] They often fight each other in the south.

[00:06:18] You have different, more isch kingdoms.

[00:06:20] So ever since the 8th century, there's been an Islamic presence in what we call

[00:06:26] Spain for about two centuries that had been a very, very prosperous situation.

[00:06:31] It had been a united political entity called alandulus, which is where we get

[00:06:36] Andalusia from these days.

[00:06:38] It was very, very rich, very wealthy full of luxury goods.

[00:06:42] Everything was great.

[00:06:44] Just before El Cid is born in the 1040s, that situation changes quite radically.

[00:06:49] It breaks up into lots of different, more isch kingdoms.

[00:06:52] So those lords that Benusoph is having a go at at the beginning of the film

[00:06:57] are the various lords of these small kingdoms.

[00:06:59] And they had lived quite peacefully with the Christian neighbors,

[00:07:03] making alliances with them, sometimes fighting them, definitely trading with them.

[00:07:08] But the arrival of the El Moravids is a really big change because they are much more

[00:07:13] fundamentalist, a lot more religious, like zealous, really religious

[00:07:18] And that is not completely different as well.

[00:07:21] A lot of them are bourbon tribesmen from North Africa rather than Arabs.

[00:07:25] So this is a huge gear shift, they're much more militant and that's what Benusoph

[00:07:30] in his big scary black robes is supposed to communicate at the beginning of the film.

[00:07:34] He's a very menacing kind of figure.

[00:07:37] Oh yeah, and everybody's all brown faced and that already kind of, I mean, I understand

[00:07:41] this is how things were made in the 60s.

[00:07:43] Does it make it no any less disturbing?

[00:07:46] It's just going to put it out there.

[00:07:49] It's very bad, it's very bad.

[00:07:52] They are mostly English men so that they can sound like villains because they've got

[00:07:56] a really villainous English accent, which is great.

[00:08:01] But yes, it's terrible.

[00:08:02] It's got a very kind of exoticising idea of Islam as well.

[00:08:08] The lords are all dressed in this absurd, like silk and it's a whole thing.

[00:08:14] So if you were to be where, all right.

[00:08:18] So during one of these local battles between the Morish forces and the Spaniards

[00:08:24] who were not quite Spaniards at the time, so during one of these local battles

[00:08:28] we have Don Rodriguez, the Diviva.

[00:08:33] He comes around, he's on his way to a wedding.

[00:08:36] He decides that right.

[00:08:38] I'm just going to go rescue the Spanish town from the invading Morajami

[00:08:41] as one of those.

[00:08:43] He captures two amirs, Al-Motamin from Zaragoza and Al-Qadir of Valencia.

[00:08:51] But because he's a nice guy, he chooses to spare their lives in return for them

[00:08:56] promising to never never attack the lands of King Ferdinand again.

[00:09:02] They agree one more readily than the other.

[00:09:05] And I released, but not before proclaiming him else in

[00:09:10] the world, and swearing their allegiance to him.

[00:09:12] So however, because no good deed goes unpunished, Rodriguez is accused of treason

[00:09:17] against the King by this guy called Count Ordinance, who is conveniently in love

[00:09:24] with Rodriguez Fiancé, Shemain.

[00:09:29] So awkwardly, Ordinance is also supported in his claim by Shemain's father, Count Gormaz

[00:09:37] and the court of King Rodriguez Daddy, Dondiego.

[00:09:42] Try to stick up for him and you know, he calls Gormaz a liar.

[00:09:46] This leads Gormaz to challenge him to a duel because that's how men resolve issues like this.

[00:09:52] So while all this is happening by the way, Rodriguez Shemain, embracing and proclaiming

[00:09:57] that it turn a love for each other in some room below the court.

[00:10:01] When Rodriguez tries to get his father in law or future father in law to apologize to his father,

[00:10:05] he and Gormaz, you know, to get into fight.

[00:10:09] And this result in Gormaz's death at Rodriguez hands.

[00:10:13] Yeah, because dudes will get stabbed by their future son and law rather than going to therapy.

[00:10:19] Exactly. And they're like, right.

[00:10:21] Because it's a good healthy way to, you know, solve this.

[00:10:24] However, before he dies, there's a lot of dramatic deaths here by the way.

[00:10:28] Before he dies, you know, Gormaz calls Shemain to him and Shemain, you know,

[00:10:33] promises to avenge his death.

[00:10:35] You know, she's like, I will hate the Rodrigo forever. Oh, Daddy, I will avenge you.

[00:10:41] So Rodriguez tries to redeem himself, right?

[00:10:43] By offering to fight on King for the next half in this kind of like battle for the city of Kalahara.

[00:10:51] So basically that's another king has come and said, look, I'm going to take Kalahara

[00:10:55] and King for the next like, no you ain't.

[00:10:58] So they decide that they're going to, you know, again resolve this.

[00:11:02] And the healthiest way possible by having to select that fight there is dual in a way.

[00:11:10] And whoever wins gets to keep the city.

[00:11:12] So Rodrigo offers himself up, you know, and he wins the battle.

[00:11:16] I'm not going to go into it.

[00:11:18] There are just lots and lots of battles.

[00:11:20] I've got so many battles and so few dancing scenes.

[00:11:24] Exactly. So this three hours long.

[00:11:26] I was messaging Alice, right?

[00:11:28] And I was like, I'm sorry. No movie should be three hours long if it doesn't have a dancing scene.

[00:11:34] Okay? No musical numbers.

[00:11:37] So, you know, so I'm not going to go into all these battles.

[00:11:41] Anyway, they fight Rodrigo wins.

[00:11:43] Happy happy joy.

[00:11:44] His crime is forgiven.

[00:11:46] The King even names him his new champion and he sent on this mission to collect tribute from the

[00:11:51] Jewish states together with the King's eldest son, Sancho.

[00:11:55] And Rodrigo asked he would be allowed to marry Shumain upon his return.

[00:12:00] So the King agrees and he sent off.

[00:12:03] How about the queen?

[00:12:05] This is such a dick move though.

[00:12:08] Making your ex marry you after you killed her father.

[00:12:12] Losing a loophole that was created by you killing her father.

[00:12:17] Yeah.

[00:12:18] That's really messed up.

[00:12:19] Yeah. I mean, he asked for this, right? Like he knows the woman hates him.

[00:12:24] Yeah. And he's like, oh, you know, it just tradition to if someone doesn't have a,

[00:12:29] like a, someone to take a woman doesn't have someone to take care of her.

[00:12:32] You know, she has to be taken care of blah, blah, blah.

[00:12:36] No, typically Shumain is not asked about this.

[00:12:39] Exactly. So she's pissed on the standably, right?

[00:12:43] So then she gets back at him. So she got basically have to supplant with, you know,

[00:12:49] count ordinances, right? You still a love of her.

[00:12:52] Basically saying, right, I'll marry you if you can kill Rodrigo.

[00:12:56] So Rodrigo and his man, they ambushed on their journey.

[00:13:00] But they are saved by Al Mutamin and his men who I'm just confused.

[00:13:04] That is happened to be there. Like what are they doing?

[00:13:06] They're just hanging out.

[00:13:08] They're just there. Okay.

[00:13:13] Deep, send it hell him that, oh yeah, by the way, your boy over there.

[00:13:17] He's responsible for this. He betrayed you.

[00:13:20] So Prince Sancho wants to kill ordones.

[00:13:23] But oh, ever so saintly Rodrigo says, no, no, we must see what's bad him.

[00:13:28] Anyone can take a man's life only a king and save him or give him life or something like that.

[00:13:33] In case you're getting all of these princess mixed up,

[00:13:36] I feel like Sancho is the one that looks like 1960's Pedro Pascal.

[00:13:41] Yeah.

[00:13:42] Did anyone else think that?

[00:13:44] That's a very good shout.

[00:13:45] I was too busy thinking about how much Rodrigo looked like a young Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[00:13:50] Yes. Oh, yeah. And by the way, as one last day, ordones, they'll say,

[00:13:54] She may not offer herself to me just so you know.

[00:13:58] Anyway, Rodrigo returns home. He and she may marry.

[00:14:03] However, she obviously remains cold to him.

[00:14:06] And on the wedding night she tells him that while, you know, he has the husbandly right to have sex with her.

[00:14:14] She will never love him because that is the only way she has left to avenge a husband.

[00:14:19] So Rodrigo being the good guy that's not sleep with her and the next day,

[00:14:23] she may go off to live in a convent.

[00:14:26] You know, there be convent popping out all over the place in this movie.

[00:14:29] That's a power move. And I wish there were convents around just for that purpose.

[00:14:33] Right. It's like school you.

[00:14:34] I'm going to live in a convent. Yeah.

[00:14:37] Yeah. So King Froden and Dice, right? But before he dies, he splits his kingdom between his three children.

[00:14:43] So Castile goes to Sancho, a story as a lay on to Alfonso is the second son

[00:14:47] and the city of Kalahora to the sister Urakha.

[00:14:51] So this was even more complicated in reality because Alfonso was at Sancho and were one of five children.

[00:15:00] So this kind of conflict. It was worse in real life. Oh my god.

[00:15:06] Yeah, I feel like in the movie they like didn't give away enough of Spain.

[00:15:12] There's more more Spain that they didn't cover in the gift to each child.

[00:15:19] Yeah.

[00:15:19] They're like, who's this bit?

[00:15:21] Here's this bit and then one city was that it?

[00:15:23] Yeah. I mean, pretty much there's a couple of other kingdoms but they are ruled by a different

[00:15:29] Royal dynasty so that King that you mentioned who wanted Kalahora.

[00:15:32] Yeah. He is the king of Arabon which is one of these other big kingdoms.

[00:15:36] There's not a lot of Spain left to give away.

[00:15:38] That's why the five kids are super pissed because they don't get enough of Spain.

[00:15:43] And these guys, we get yeah.

[00:15:45] And that's enough because they start fighting at their dad's funeral.

[00:15:48] Exactly right. So it would invite and Sancho's like,

[00:15:51] I'm the eldest boy.

[00:15:54] Because brothers will stab each other at their father's funeral rather than going to therapy.

[00:15:59] Of course.

[00:16:00] Okay. So they are fighting right? And there's a layman's fight ever.

[00:16:04] And then, and Araka intervenes just as Sancho is about to stab.

[00:16:08] I don't know. And then Sancho then banishes the fonts of the dungeons of Zamora.

[00:16:13] And oh yeah. And while they are arguing, Sancho insinuates that the some weird

[00:16:18] incestures relationship going on right between Alfonso and Araka?

[00:16:23] Yes.

[00:16:25] That was weird. I didn't know if I was being gross picking up on that because it was just a little bit of like a face touch and like a

[00:16:35] You guys are, you know, you're all close.

[00:16:39] A little too close.

[00:16:40] Kind of actually.

[00:16:41] But the brother says it though. The brother says it as well, right? He says like,

[00:16:45] Oh, you know, it's always you and Araka. You teach us something.

[00:16:49] I can't remember what he says, but like, do you know, so he picked that one into.

[00:16:54] So yeah, ew. Just very ew.

[00:16:56] Alfonso is being sent off to the dungeon, right?

[00:16:58] But he doesn't make it to the dungeon, right?

[00:17:00] Because then he's like in the next scene, right?

[00:17:04] Yes. Because the dungeon is not in the palace.

[00:17:06] Because what's weird reason, he's not sending him. He's like, hey, you're so much.

[00:17:10] I'm not going to send you to this dungeon.

[00:17:12] I'm going to send you to a dungeon somewhere else.

[00:17:15] Oh, okay. I didn't get that. I was like, did he just like go downstairs to the dungeon and then just immediately

[00:17:21] You know, bow and it was like, no, I'm just not doing that.

[00:17:25] No, they were going to take him to a whole different castles of dungeon.

[00:17:29] Yeah, he was wrong with their dungeons.

[00:17:31] No, under renovation.

[00:17:32] Yeah. I think Rodrigo then interrupts the prison transfer at this point.

[00:17:37] Right? Yeah.

[00:17:39] Again, because he just happens to be there, right?

[00:17:41] And then he like single handedly fights like what, 13 men.

[00:17:46] Okay, fine. Alfonso helps a bit. But like pretty much is just like Rodrigo versus like,

[00:17:51] I was like, and I was thinking, I was like, how rubbish are these kings guards, right?

[00:17:55] They're like 13 of your verses is one guy.

[00:17:57] And Charlton has to not look good at fighting.

[00:18:00] No.

[00:18:00] He's just kind of like, like wildly swinging kind of like at some point he has a mace,

[00:18:05] but I don't know if he started out with having a mace.

[00:18:08] Yeah. And they're all just kind of ready. They're ready to go.

[00:18:11] They're like, I don't even need this job.

[00:18:13] He's like, yeah, like fuck this shit right there off.

[00:18:15] Oh, yeah. And by the way, Rodrigo gets stabbed in the leg.

[00:18:18] But he doesn't feel anything because he's a real man.

[00:18:21] He's too manly to, for five pain.

[00:18:24] No.

[00:18:25] He's too manly to have like a severed artery.

[00:18:27] Exactly. He's like, now that's fine. We're going to ride, right?

[00:18:30] So he goes and then he takes basically, he takes a fun show to his sister's house.

[00:18:36] So meanwhile, Ben Yusuf and his peeps stay hit,

[00:18:38] to Valencia, which is being ruled by Alcadir, right?

[00:18:43] The other guy, Rodrigo's bear.

[00:18:44] Ben Yusuf's forms well kind of forces and alliance because he wants to secure

[00:18:49] Valencia for when his armada is going to land in Spain.

[00:18:53] So he has concocted a cunning plan.

[00:18:57] I love saying that.

[00:18:58] In which she has this random guy, Dolphos.

[00:19:02] Don't know where he came from. He's there.

[00:19:04] So he's supposed to be this guy that used to be part of the King's...

[00:19:09] ...guard or something or other.

[00:19:12] So he's gone on this Spanish guy's gone off, going on to the off to the other side.

[00:19:15] Oh, no. He was one of those guards who was like, fuck all y'all.

[00:19:18] Like, there's not even a pension and he just like pretended to fall off his horse.

[00:19:23] And then he ran over. He was like, you all need a nessassin.

[00:19:27] There you go. Fair enough. Okay. So he's there now, right?

[00:19:31] So the plan is that he is going to kill Mondaroid brothers and put the blame on the other.

[00:19:39] Thus, so in the seas of division amongst the people of Spain.

[00:19:43] So Sancho and his peeps stay alive in Kalahara looking for Alfonso.

[00:19:47] And brother and sister, they try to enlist Rodriguez help to defeat Sancho.

[00:19:52] Rodriguez says, no, no, I'm supposed to protect all three of you guys.

[00:19:57] I can't get involved anyway. The princess turns to Dolphos to help because he conveniently is there.

[00:20:03] He's like, hey, I heard you need a nessassin, huh?

[00:20:06] So what he does is he goes to try to convince Sancho that he knows the secret way to get into the castle.

[00:20:12] But then Sancho goes with him alone. And I just don't understand what the point was.

[00:20:18] Because like, why was he going to do go into the castle by himself?

[00:20:22] So it's all very weird, right? Anyway, I mean, I'm sorry.

[00:20:25] That point, Sancho deserved to get stabbed.

[00:20:27] So Sancho goes with him. Dolphos literally stabs him in the back.

[00:20:34] And then Rodriguez sees everything. He slays Dolphos and then cue another dramatic death.

[00:20:42] Where Sancho dies in Rodriguez, I'm saying, oh, I'm just almost king.

[00:20:49] All right. So at Alfonso's coronation, Rodriguez refuses to kneel to him because he wants Alfonso to publicly swear on the Bible that he has nothing to do with Sancho's death.

[00:21:00] Now technically Alfonso wasn't involved, right? Because he was his sister that all the plotting.

[00:21:05] So he does his swearing but he's not a happy bunny.

[00:21:08] So he banishes all three go from the kingdom.

[00:21:10] And we see Rodriguez go traveling through the hills very sadly with just, you know, and horse lady in with his possessions.

[00:21:17] And who does he come across in the middle of nowhere? But she main.

[00:21:21] Yeah. And like, just the way the camera pans, right? You're just like, she's just there. No horse nothing.

[00:21:27] And I was like, where the hell did she come from? She just beam herself over there?

[00:21:31] She's got a really nice faux fur lined cloak as well. She's like, you know, you're not not tired at all.

[00:21:37] He didn't ridden for days. She's there. She's like, oh, I love you so much. I'm going to go into exile with you.

[00:21:42] She was hanging out with that leper called Lazarus. Lazarus? Yeah. She's like, oh, just hanging.

[00:21:48] So they go in the merry way and they come across this little peasant girl who tells them that her family will offer them shelter for the night because everyone has heard of the great LC.

[00:21:59] So Rodriguez and she main spend a night in the barn presumably finally concentrating their marriage.

[00:22:04] You can tell because she, her hair is a little messed up. A little. I was going to say they're basically woke up looking as beautiful and put together like hashtag woke up like this, right?

[00:22:17] Yeah. And they make their plans, you know, to live quite little life.

[00:22:20] We talk about this little lovely little life they're going to have. However, as soon as they open the barn door, they see this whole host of soldiers who somehow quietly snuck their little way.

[00:22:32] I just burst out laughing at that point. I'm like, what the hell is happening here?

[00:22:37] The open doors is like, full retinue of soldiers are like, no, Rodriguez, let us, you know, we let us stand behind you blah blah blah.

[00:22:47] That's when they should have had a dance number. Right! They opened up their already halfway through the number. It was just like a really soundproof barn.

[00:22:56] Yeah. Yeah. So, and of course, because sort of Rodriguez obviously cannot help but follow his fans.

[00:23:04] So he, you know, finds a convent because, you know, they'll be popping up all over the place, right?

[00:23:09] Is it the same convent or is this just a different convent?

[00:23:11] It's a different convent. No, I don't think so.

[00:23:14] I don't think so. So he leaves, she main the convent and then goes off to become a soldier or something.

[00:23:21] It's unclear to me what he's doing at that point or why they wanted him to come with them.

[00:23:27] But I feel like it doesn't matter at this point.

[00:23:30] It's just all very weird and it would end as an insumission.

[00:23:32] Oh, I didn't get any permission. Sorry. So, I got an insumission. This is too hours in.

[00:23:37] Kim watched this on YouTube.

[00:23:39] I watched it on, so we're in the UK.

[00:23:43] And so I watched it on BBC iPlayer. We didn't get an intermission.

[00:23:46] No, I watched it on iPlayer as well. No intermission.

[00:23:49] Just so you know, did you get the six minutes of overture?

[00:23:53] Oh, and the start.

[00:23:54] At the start, it was six whole minutes.

[00:23:57] That was the closest thing we got to a ballie with number.

[00:24:00] Yeah. And clarinet missed out on that. That is.

[00:24:02] That is. That is.

[00:24:03] So there wasn't actual intermission with the words intermission.

[00:24:07] So that's like, okay, so we're two hours in.

[00:24:09] Okay. So now post intermission.

[00:24:12] Some years have passed and you notice because Rodrigo now has a beard and a

[00:24:18] whole scar across his face. And the beard has like, skunk streaks in it.

[00:24:24] Yeah.

[00:24:24] And that's great because it's like he's telling us I wasn't 47 years old before now.

[00:24:32] I was used for so only now and my old.

[00:24:36] He looks like a leather belt.

[00:24:38] Yeah.

[00:24:39] Always.

[00:24:40] Yeah, I'm not a fan anyway.

[00:24:42] So he summoned to the court of King Alfonso because the King once

[00:24:46] him to help protect.

[00:24:47] It's seen them from Ben used to say,

[00:24:49] Ami.

[00:24:50] Rodrigo says the best strategy is to take Valencia with the help of his Muslim besties

[00:24:56] from his brought along with him.

[00:24:57] King Alfonso was like,

[00:24:59] Hell no no no no no.

[00:25:02] And tell Rodrigo you better get your ass there at the battle of Sagrajas.

[00:25:07] So Rodrigo finally goes to the convent to reunite with Shaman

[00:25:13] because for some reason all this years he couldn't see her.

[00:25:17] And he finally meets his twin daughters who just run around and smile

[00:25:22] and don't speak at all is very, very weird.

[00:25:25] They're very creepy and I think they're definitely wearing wigs.

[00:25:29] They do not speak because I think they didn't want to have to pay them.

[00:25:33] But they do things like in sync like simultaneously kiss their mother on the cheek

[00:25:39] and then stroke her face very weird.

[00:25:42] So there's some creepy twins.

[00:25:45] Yeah, okay so he considers following the King's orders.

[00:25:48] But instead he meets up with his BFF Albu Damin

[00:25:52] and together they plan to see each against Valencia because you know they're like,

[00:25:56] we no better.

[00:25:57] So King Alfonso is pissed because he's lost the battle in Sagrajas

[00:26:02] and he blames Rodrigo for not being there.

[00:26:05] As a form of revenge, he kidnapped Shaman and her kids

[00:26:09] because he knows that Rodrigo will come and save them.

[00:26:12] However, the repentant or doness remember him, he's come back.

[00:26:16] He's still alive.

[00:26:17] He rescues Shaman in the twins and takes them to Rodrigo

[00:26:21] asking the join forces with him.

[00:26:23] So then we have this very long scene of all of like Rodrigo's forces,

[00:26:29] you know pushing these like giant wall towers on the beach

[00:26:33] to the walls of Valencia and like it just goes on forever.

[00:26:38] Much marching, very warm.

[00:26:40] Very warm, just like yeah dude I get it.

[00:26:43] And then just as you think they're gonna attack the city,

[00:26:46] you know just love this bit.

[00:26:48] The catapult bred across the walls to win over the starving masses

[00:26:54] and cabbage, don't forget cabbage.

[00:26:58] So they plan works right?

[00:27:01] Because the citizens rise against Alcadir's man,

[00:27:04] the killing the guards and Alcadir himself

[00:27:08] and they open the gates and let the forces in and they're like,

[00:27:11] hurrah, hurrah.

[00:27:12] They even try to get Rodrigo to become king,

[00:27:16] but he's so good he's like, oh no no no no.

[00:27:18] I will send the crown to King Alfonso.

[00:27:21] Can you tell I'm not a fan?

[00:27:25] It's very subtle.

[00:27:26] Famously subtle you.

[00:27:28] So Ben, you serve in his army, you know arrive.

[00:27:31] Bababla, battle, battle, battle, everything seems to be going on,

[00:27:36] you know, Rodrigo's side until he gets shot in the chest.

[00:27:40] And then he's, he obviously has to turn and right back into the city,

[00:27:43] right?

[00:27:43] Because the dude goes shot in chest and everybody turns and runs with him.

[00:27:49] Sorry, just I just caught the pants.

[00:27:52] I'm sorry, I've already figured if I can see how red I'm getting.

[00:27:55] I look like my Aunt Kathy.

[00:27:57] Oh, I'm getting together just get it together.

[00:28:01] Okay, so you know he's like run away in a way

[00:28:04] so everybody goes back, right?

[00:28:06] I mean he is an excuse to go back.

[00:28:08] I don't know why everybody else is running back into the city,

[00:28:11] but hey, they go, they follow him.

[00:28:14] Anyway, he's wouldn't as serious but curable.

[00:28:17] The only catch is that if the arrow is removed,

[00:28:20] he's going to take a while to recover

[00:28:21] so he won't be able to fight the next day.

[00:28:24] But he's like, hell no, no, no, no, I have to fight.

[00:28:26] I must fight blah blah blah.

[00:28:29] And he even goes out like arrow and all of this like scarf covering his arrow,

[00:28:34] you know sticking out of his chest and he goes to like rally his men.

[00:28:37] And then meanwhile, like Ben used to have been his peeps dating that Rodrigo is dead

[00:28:42] and they're like, yeah, cool tomorrow's battle is going to be a cinch.

[00:28:46] So King of Fonsor even arrives to beg for Rodrigo's forgiveness.

[00:28:51] Rodrigo obviously gives it.

[00:28:53] And he knows he's dying.

[00:28:54] And so he makes she main promise that she will ensure that he writes out

[00:28:58] with his men the next day, like dying dead whatever he's going to be going out.

[00:29:03] No, she's later.

[00:29:04] What?

[00:29:05] Yep, he's like, yeah, yeah, okay, I get you.

[00:29:08] So anyway, next day what happens?

[00:29:11] All the troops are all there.

[00:29:13] I always troops are waiting.

[00:29:15] And then you basically have this, I'm sorry.

[00:29:17] It is the weirdest ending ever.

[00:29:21] That's okay, we're here for you.

[00:29:22] Yeah, basically so Rodrigo's closest peeps right?

[00:29:28] Yeah, I'll be coming in and all that.

[00:29:30] They somehow fashion this contraption.

[00:29:33] I mean to put Rodrigo's dead body.

[00:29:35] So he's dead.

[00:29:36] Yeah, the guy's dead.

[00:29:38] His eyes have opened.

[00:29:39] He's dead.

[00:29:40] He's in full armor.

[00:29:42] Strap to his pull-hosses back.

[00:29:44] You know sitting upright somehow they managed to arrange his body

[00:29:48] and he's such a huge holding onto the banner.

[00:29:51] And I'm like messaging Alice and I was like, how?

[00:29:53] How is this happening?

[00:29:55] Don't you have to grip a banner?

[00:29:57] I do not understand.

[00:29:58] I don't understand.

[00:30:00] Anyway, we had a lot of theories about like raccoon grips

[00:30:04] and rigor mortis.

[00:30:05] It was like exactly.

[00:30:06] There's a lot real like what's happening.

[00:30:09] And I was like, got this pull-hoss.

[00:30:10] He's like, I did not sign up for this.

[00:30:13] So what did it do is that they kind of guide the horse right?

[00:30:16] So you've got a king on one side.

[00:30:17] I'll come in with the other.

[00:30:19] And you're right off to battle.

[00:30:21] And it's just like ridiculously awesome, I guess, seen where they come out of the gates.

[00:30:29] And then the sun is shining on Rodvego's armor.

[00:30:32] And he's like reflecting the light.

[00:30:34] Let's see if he's some sort of angel or whatever.

[00:30:36] And he's coming around writing out dead by the way.

[00:30:40] And also like just so clear.

[00:30:46] He's dead.

[00:30:48] He's dead.

[00:30:49] Just he knows dead.

[00:30:53] And then you so zombies like fuck this shit, I'm out right?

[00:30:57] So they're like, ah run away and run away.

[00:31:00] Then you stuff himself falls off his horse gets trampled on.

[00:31:04] Everybody dies, runs away.

[00:31:06] And in the movie ends.

[00:31:09] Sorry.

[00:31:10] The movie ends with.

[00:31:15] Bid run away.

[00:31:18] The movie ends with Rodvego's dead dead cops.

[00:31:24] Still writing on his horse on each.

[00:31:29] Going to God knows where.

[00:31:34] I'm sorry.

[00:31:35] And I'm messaging Alice.

[00:31:36] I'm like what happening?

[00:31:39] Are they going to get his body?

[00:31:41] Are they going to leave it to dead or not?

[00:31:43] What's happening?

[00:31:44] What am I watching?

[00:31:46] The end.

[00:31:48] The end.

[00:31:49] Like 10 weeks later.

[00:31:51] And it's just a skeleton.

[00:31:54] Still holding a banner.

[00:31:56] And the horse is eating some grass.

[00:32:00] The horse is like this my life now.

[00:32:04] Okay.

[00:32:05] Okay.

[00:32:05] There we go.

[00:32:06] Did you get it?

[00:32:07] I'm so proud of you.

[00:32:09] Thank you.

[00:32:09] It's a lot of film to summarize.

[00:32:12] I was just very confused half the time to be honest.

[00:32:15] Yeah, it's a lot.

[00:32:16] It was like who is this guy?

[00:32:18] What's going on?

[00:32:19] Where are they?

[00:32:22] So yeah.

[00:32:24] It's a lot to take in.

[00:32:26] Okay.

[00:32:26] Look.

[00:32:27] I wasn't going to include this but I feel compelled to start off by saying this is Martin Scorsese's

[00:32:32] favorite film.

[00:32:33] Why?

[00:32:34] Interesting.

[00:32:35] I don't know.

[00:32:36] So he is famously like very Catholic and into Catholic things.

[00:32:42] So that could be part of it.

[00:32:43] But also, I think maybe it's a generational thing.

[00:32:46] And I had this question when watching and losing my shit laughing hysterically at this

[00:32:52] final scene.

[00:32:53] I thought this was not the intended reaction.

[00:32:57] And I'm sure it wasn't the reaction of people in the theater who saw it in 1961.

[00:33:04] People must have found it moving.

[00:33:07] Yeah, for sure.

[00:33:08] I mean, it was one of the effects or I guess.

[00:33:12] Yeah.

[00:33:12] So this film was made at a really interesting time in like the history of Hollywood as well.

[00:33:18] So like with Charlton Heston you've got the Ten Commandments in 1956.

[00:33:22] He made Ben Hurr in 1959.

[00:33:26] Spartacus with Kirk Douglas comes out in 1960.

[00:33:29] This year, 1961, you had King of Kings which is about Jesus.

[00:33:34] And then in 1962 we get Lawrence of Arabia.

[00:33:38] So Hollywood at this time is very invested in these really long apics about dudes,

[00:33:47] apic dudes who are...

[00:33:48] The Bacteriards and Deserts.

[00:33:50] Apic dudes and deserts.

[00:33:51] So this like, apic dudes and deserts is the mid century Hollywood marvellous cinematic

[00:33:59] universe.

[00:34:00] Right, it all connected.

[00:34:02] So they're just like digging through the tombs of history and they're just like where can we find a dude

[00:34:08] who did epic things in the desert?

[00:34:11] And so they were bound to come eventually to El Cid.

[00:34:16] So I think that's how we get this film right.

[00:34:19] Okay, make sense now.

[00:34:20] And whoever it was, you know, it doesn't matter where they were in whatever desert around the world.

[00:34:26] They had to be played by like a six foot three white dude in his like late 30s.

[00:34:34] And what, and Phil looks older than that.

[00:34:36] Mostly Charlton Heston like start with Charlton Heston and if we can't get him,

[00:34:41] then you know like Kirk Douglas and move down the list.

[00:34:44] So audiences were obviously eating this up at the time.

[00:34:48] And these very emotive very over the top like heroes who were too good.

[00:34:55] Like they're almost anti hero characteristic was the goodness and their inability to do anything immoral.

[00:35:04] Blah, blah, like to such an extent that we see like the most fucked up manipulative relationship move of like

[00:35:12] I'm gonna make you marry me even though I you hate me because I murdered your dad.

[00:35:17] That is seen as like an act of chivalry.

[00:35:21] So in being dead on a horse must have been part of that,

[00:35:26] that people must have really really liked that.

[00:35:29] Yeah, yeah, I mean it's definitely a choice.

[00:35:33] It was definitely a choice.

[00:35:35] It all boils down to it was a choice.

[00:35:38] And I just need to clarify first of all, this was not historically accurate.

[00:35:43] There are so many things about this movie that we're not historically accurate that we are going to get to.

[00:35:48] But I need to get this out of the way first for my own piece of mind so that we all can move on.

[00:35:53] So that we can all move on. Yes, please somebody tell me.

[00:35:56] Okay, so they didn't. So like you know, we don't have any records that say they, you know within a day or less and a day came up with this amazing contraption to have this dead man.

[00:36:06] And we can be like set up right in this like we've got loads of like iron armor and shit and somehow holding on to a banner with his dead dead head.

[00:36:18] One of the few things that we do know about L. said in a life that is clouded with legend is that he died during peace time.

[00:36:26] He did not die in battle.

[00:36:28] He did not die from an arrow wound and he certainly was not strapped to his war horse and ridden out of the gates of Valencia.

[00:36:37] Okay, we're also not quite sure where this came from.

[00:36:41] It seems to have come from some of the popular ballads.

[00:36:44] So it's an old story. It dates back to the medieval period.

[00:36:47] But we are fairly sure it didn't happen and not to give you too much of a spoiler.

[00:36:52] We think it might have developed from the stories of the evacuation of Valencia because this victory is a short lived one.

[00:37:01] A couple of years after El Cid dies during peace time, the El Morovids come back and his wife, his widow whose name is pronounced,

[00:37:09] He menna and not shame.

[00:37:12] She may, she may, very French. Now her name is Donia, he menna.

[00:37:17] She evacuated the city and hands it over to the El Morovids.

[00:37:21] And they think that this story might have developed out of the fact that when she evacuated the city,

[00:37:26] she brought Rodrigo's body with her to be buried in his hometown in Bordegoth, which is in Castile.

[00:37:32] So his body did leave Valencia but not on the back of the horse and certainly not in the middle of a battle.

[00:37:39] All right, okay. That's very reassuring. Thank you.

[00:37:44] Since you mentioned Shaman, I had seen and was very confused by the fact that I've seen now a few adaptations of this story in other media.

[00:37:55] So there is now our listeners might know on Amazon Prime, there's a series called El Cid which is in Spanish, but you can get it dubbed in English if you are lazy,

[00:38:08] be-sipship like me. And so there is also a cartoon from 2003 and there is an older cartoon about young El Cid called Ruí, which is very cute.

[00:38:22] But in all of these things and in writings about it, I've seen Shaman's name written as Himaena with a J. And Himaena with an axe.

[00:38:35] But never this version that sounds like a character named for Louisiana women's wrestler who carries around a stuffed alligator.

[00:38:44] So where does this come from?

[00:38:47] The complication around her name comes from the fact that obviously these original stories are written in Old Spanish.

[00:38:55] The current Spanish form of her name is Himaena with a J, where you have that non-pronounced J, Himaena.

[00:39:03] In Old Spanish that would have been written with an axe, that's the original version of her name,

[00:39:08] but we also think that to be fair in Old Spanish it would have been pronounced as a shah. So Himaena would have been Shimaena, most likely.

[00:39:16] In the 17th century when these stories start being adapted all over Europe, we see a French playwright called Piaque-Né,

[00:39:25] a dapped her name as Shaman, so that it sounds more French. That's what they've gone for here.

[00:39:30] There we go, the track that we haven't done.

[00:39:33] The track that we haven't done, mixed up all of those things.

[00:39:35] To start from the beginning, I'm going to tell you a bit of film facts aside from the fact that this is Martin Scorsese's favorite film.

[00:39:43] This film was from 1961, it was directed by Anthony Mann,

[00:39:47] El Cid is played by Charlton Heston.

[00:39:51] And Shaman is played by Sophia Loren, the horse that Charlton Heston rides on,

[00:39:58] does not accredited nor does it get named.

[00:40:02] But I found that very disappointing because in other adaptations I've seen and what very little I know about the legends,

[00:40:09] that Rodrigo's horse is a really big part of it,

[00:40:14] and they could have made him a cool character they could have had a vibe.

[00:40:19] But I feel like Charlton Heston's ill-sid was like too much of a wet blanket to have a cool,

[00:40:27] exacting relationship with the horse.

[00:40:29] Also like why waste time on that when you can have extended wall battle scenes,

[00:40:34] so much marching we don't have time to form human nonhuman friendships.

[00:40:40] Justice Fabaveca, which is the horse's name.

[00:40:43] Yes, so the horse's name is Fabaveca and I've seen somewhere that that means stupid.

[00:40:49] And there are various reasons like his uncle gave him the horse and he picked the wrong kind of horse

[00:40:55] and his uncle said that's stupid, so he named the horse stupid.

[00:41:00] Other things say that it comes from where he's from from Bivar,

[00:41:05] but at any rate the legends give the horse a backstory.

[00:41:09] And this movie, we just see the back of him.

[00:41:12] Let's see how he's going.

[00:41:15] He, the horse of legend, don't know how true he is.

[00:41:21] But according to legend he lived to be 40 years old and died after his master.

[00:41:29] But back to the film.

[00:41:31] So El Sid was American produced but was a very international film,

[00:41:36] including filming in Spain and they filmed that these four really old castles in Spain.

[00:41:42] It cost 7 million of your 1961 American dollars to make,

[00:41:49] which had it tied for most expensive film of 1961.

[00:41:53] And it was tied with King of Kings that movie about Jesus.

[00:41:58] Ah, look another dude in a desert, another epic dude in the desert.

[00:42:03] Just throw money at it.

[00:42:04] But for a bit of context, so 7 million dollars at that time.

[00:42:10] So I'm sorry again listeners we're in Britain.

[00:42:13] So I tried to do things in pounds, but that's about 116 million pounds today.

[00:42:19] Oh, so for further context that's not a whole lot of money for a movie today.

[00:42:25] Like Deadpool and Wolverine cost 158 million dollars to make.

[00:42:31] So from a time magazine article, I learned that this movie required 7,000 extras.

[00:42:39] 10,000 horses 35 ships which where I don't even remember.

[00:42:46] Yeah, ship's where they just out in the distance couldn't they have used little like ones on sticks?

[00:42:50] And 50 quote unquote outsize engines of medieval war, which I assume just includes the snack catapults.

[00:42:59] Yeah, those big giant power things.

[00:43:03] Yeah, shooting cabbages.

[00:43:05] And I also read in a Guardian article that a lot of the soldiers both the Spanish soldiers and the

[00:43:11] Moorish ones were real Spanish soldiers at the time.

[00:43:15] They used the Spanish military and they allegedly got paid more for playing Moors because they were at the enemy.

[00:43:23] Oh my god.

[00:43:25] So that's where part of that 7 million dollars went also.

[00:43:30] Sophia Loren, even though she was the third choice for this film, was paid $1 million for this film for 10 weeks of work,

[00:43:41] which is just over like 16 and a half million pounds today.

[00:43:46] So that is a big chunk of change in at the time that was the most any actress had made for a feature film like this.

[00:43:52] And not coincidentally, Charlton Heston.

[00:43:56] So he wrote about the making of this film in his memoir called In the Arena and in his published journal called The Actors Life.

[00:44:06] And he said that he and Sophia Loren quote,

[00:44:09] got off on the wrong foot, which I think we can interpret as him being a total last to her.

[00:44:18] And Heston actually admitted to behaving in a manner on professional and unfair, on kind and stubborn.

[00:44:27] And he later regretted it.

[00:44:29] So you know why might that have been?

[00:44:32] No, could it be because she got paid more than him?

[00:44:37] And according to interviews from people who worked on the film, which were shown in the DVD extras.

[00:44:44] If anyone owns the DVD, you can go and watch these interviews.

[00:44:48] That was exactly it. It was because she got paid so much money and more than he got paid.

[00:44:54] And the two actors hated each other on set, which is so funny because this is only the second film that Kim and I have covered that is sort of a

[00:45:05] time period piece within a time period piece, you know, because this is filmed in 1961 and Boyd has to feel Loren look it with her like

[00:45:14] Pointy boobs and her winged eye makeup and her like teased poofy hair.

[00:45:21] Yeah. And the other film we covered was Withering Heights from 1934 in which the lead actors also hated each other.

[00:45:32] Because the guy was a day.

[00:45:34] Because the guy was consistently a dick turner and like wouldn't acknowledge her during filming,

[00:45:41] going listen to our Withering Heights episode, it's fire.

[00:45:45] And again, during so many of the love scenes, Charlton has to refuse to look at Safiel Loren for more than a glance, like despite director Anthony Man,

[00:45:57] like begging him to do it and doing so many takes.

[00:46:02] What a baby.

[00:46:03] Oh, God. Can you imagine just having to be out in like some Spanish medieval castle with these two creepy twins

[00:46:11] dealing with this like smelly asshole who won't even look at you.

[00:46:17] I assume he's smelling.

[00:46:21] He probably thinks it's a manly musk.

[00:46:23] Yeah.

[00:46:24] He hasn't also bemoaned the fact that his character age is during the film, but Safiel Loren's character remains effortlessly beautiful throughout.

[00:46:34] Well, I will say he looked better when he aged as well.

[00:46:37] I'm going to say it on, but you know, when he first after my intermission where I went out and made a cup of tea,

[00:46:43] and then when you're in the first the first scene, you see his older Rodrigo coming through.

[00:46:48] And I was like, hey, he's kind of cute.

[00:46:50] And then I'm like, oh wait, is that guy?

[00:46:53] And also, I'm sorry, try to age Safiel Loren. You can't.

[00:46:56] You can't! He's so beautiful!

[00:46:59] So this is also from a contemporary time magazine from 1961.

[00:47:04] When the movie came out there was a massive billboard put up in Times Square to promote it

[00:47:11] and Safiel Loren sued producer Samuel Bronson because that billboard had her name appear below Charlton Hestens.

[00:47:22] Yeah, girl!

[00:47:23] In the end, Charlton Hestens said he was, quote, unimpressed by the movie when he saw it,

[00:47:29] and especially the battle scenes, which I think we can agree on, because it's pretty obvious that they're just kind of like,

[00:47:38] it looks like the swords are made of like foam or baguettes or something in their fairly hitting each other.

[00:47:45] They're just like, oh, I guess I'm dead now.

[00:47:49] Despite this fact, in some Muslim countries, the climax of the film is actually left out because it depicts the massacre of the moors.

[00:47:59] And I would say, like, I understand that, but also if I had to provide a counter argument,

[00:48:06] it would be that it doesn't look like anyone is getting killed or even being harmed at all.

[00:48:12] It looks like they're being lightly touched by something that is an approximation of a sword or a stick or something.

[00:48:19] Yeah, finally, but I think very importantly, El Sid was partly funded by the fascist regime of general Francisco Franco in Spain at the time.

[00:48:29] And it was really heavily promoted as this like pro Franco propaganda when it was released in Spain.

[00:48:38] And Franco hurled the film as an allegory for how he saved Spain from communism in the 1930s.

[00:48:47] So I feel like this transitions well into some of the questions that we had for you, Clara, about this film, to kind of make sense of it in the history of the world.

[00:48:59] And it's a very interesting story of Spain and the region.

[00:49:02] So you've already talked a little about how it's kind of hard to pinpoint the real man of El Sid because there are these legends.

[00:49:14] And we can agree that this Hollywood rendition of Rodrigo Diaz' life, which is funded in part by a Spanish dictator,

[00:49:22] probably shouldn't be taken as historically accurate, but why exactly is it so difficult to figure out what's real about this man's life and what isn't?

[00:49:33] It is a particularly difficult case.

[00:49:37] And a historian called Richard Fletcher who wrote an amazing book about El Sid in the 90s said that it was peculiarly difficult to disentangle history from myth.

[00:49:46] That's very much true, but oddly it's not so much of a lack of evidence for the basics.

[00:49:52] We actually have a history called the Historia Roderiki, which is a Latin and non-amassic count of his life.

[00:50:00] The probably dates to within about 30 years of his death, which is pretty good. It's not that far afterwards.

[00:50:06] That gives us quite a lot of the basic facts, but the way that history was written then, what it doesn't give us is any of the framing.

[00:50:14] It doesn't give us the motivations. It doesn't give why the characters act the way they do.

[00:50:19] It's a chronicle. It tells you what happened in what year and when.

[00:50:24] So there's still lots of unanswered questions about precisely what happens. We know that he's exiled.

[00:50:28] We don't know why things like that. Also, we have some documentary evidence for more of his life that we can use again to shore up those absolute basics.

[00:50:39] So we actually have a certificate that's essentially his marriage certificate where he signed his own name at the bottom of the page Ego Roderico, which is me Roderigo.

[00:50:49] We also have his own sort of court documents that he certified for the king, so we can tell who he served and when.

[00:50:58] And we have an interesting account from the Muslim perspective about the conquest of Valencia preserved in Islamic history.

[00:51:05] The basic facts are there. What makes it really difficult is that almost as soon as he dies, these facts are crowded out by these incredible literary adaptations of his life, almost as soon as he dies.

[00:51:18] So the most famous one is called the Kanta, the Miwsi, which is usually dated to like the early 1200s. So about a century after he dies.

[00:51:29] And this is where we get quite a lot of the roots of the legends that we're seeing in the film. So it's this poem that gives us the twin daughters, which are not called Elvira and so on in real life they were called Maria and Christina.

[00:51:42] It also gives us this same sense of him being wrongfully exiled time and time again because of tyrannical kings who misunderstand him.

[00:51:52] And later in the 1360s we have another similar poem called The Mossed Artist of the Roderigo, which are about his youth, his youthful deeds.

[00:52:01] And that's where we get for the first time this sense that he killed the father of his wife to be and this kind of more entangled romantic story that gets bound up with everything.

[00:52:11] And then like you mentioned we have all of these other kind of trappings of a folkloric hero. We have the horse, Barrieka.

[00:52:18] We have his two swords, Tisana and Gorlada. So he has this whole kind of folkloric armory that he carries with him.

[00:52:27] You gotta have a sword with an him.

[00:52:30] No, a named sword as well is very, very important.

[00:52:34] I mean, swords.

[00:52:36] But I guess when you compare him with other folkloric figures that become national hero so to put it in a British context if you compare him with a king Arthur or a Robin Hood.

[00:52:47] In America I think we have Abraham Lincoln.

[00:52:52] In those contexts we're pretty sure that those weren't real people. They're more amalgamations of various figures.

[00:52:59] Where are you?

[00:52:59] I still believe in Abraham Lincoln.

[00:53:03] That's fair.

[00:53:04] But in a else case, we can verify the basic facts of his life.

[00:53:09] Simply what's happened really is that fundamentally the dramatic episodes that are added to his story by these amazing literary adaptations in a medieval period.

[00:53:17] They're really good. They make the story so much better, so they get replicated time and time again with each successive generation adding an extra layer of drama to make this hero their hero.

[00:53:30] Every time he's adapted something is added that makes him more the hero of the time.

[00:53:36] So all of these adaptations like with the film itself, what they really tell us is more about the people who are making the story.

[00:53:43] They tell us very little about else it. They tell us more about how the culture of the time wanted him to be.

[00:53:50] That's really funny because that's what we say about period dramas.

[00:53:53] So often isn't it?

[00:53:55] It really reflects so much more on the people who are making the film, who are doing the adaptation then really does like the people of the period at the time.

[00:54:06] It's a really interesting kind of ethical problem that really kind of brings that debate to light. Is this whole idea about whether he was this fantastically loyal night who is wrongfully exiled several times, you know, trying to faithfully serve his king but never quite being able to because the king just wouldn't have it.

[00:54:25] Whether it was through jealousy or intrigue or trickery, or whether he was this kind of self-serving mercenary figure who was doing these things for well for power for legacy.

[00:54:38] And this was really interesting to think about because actually these two things are both ideals at different times.

[00:54:46] If you asked a 11th century Spanish Lord, what is the ideal warrior? What does being an ideal warrior mean?

[00:54:56] They're probably going to tell you that it's defending your family honour accumulating wealth and power.

[00:55:02] Service is part of it, religion is part of it but actually El Cid's life story which ends up with him, spoiler alert, basically self-styling himself as a prince of Valencia totally independent of his king.

[00:55:17] That's about as good as it gets.

[00:55:19] So he kept that crown.

[00:55:20] He kept that crown. He did not give that crown to elephants.

[00:55:24] You know what? I love that for him.

[00:55:27] The whole siege of Valencia in the film is framed in a very very different way.

[00:55:33] There's absolutely no sense that in historical terms it was the culmination of this huge national defense strategy.

[00:55:40] It was absolutely a vanity project, it was an ambition project.

[00:55:43] It was for Rodrigo to carve out his own kingdom in a kind of chaotic time period where you could rise meteorically or you could fall.

[00:55:53] He was just an opportunist in 1092 Alcadir who is a real historical figure too.

[00:56:00] He starts paying tribute directly to Rodrigo and not to King Alfonso, which he probably wouldn't do unless El Cid was pressing,

[00:56:09] kind of providing you know lots of military pressure in that area.

[00:56:13] It tells us that he was powerful enough to be fitted.

[00:56:16] An in 1094 when Alcadir is killed in a local uprising,

[00:56:20] it's Rodrigo who's in the position to take advantage of that,

[00:56:24] laced each to the city and take it for himself.

[00:56:27] Unlike the film where he's throwing cabbage and bread into this city, he busts 100%.

[00:56:33] But he's not throwing bread into the city. He actually staves them out.

[00:56:36] So we're in no snack catapult. That was my favorite part!

[00:56:42] I hate to tell you that he was trying to starve them to death,

[00:56:46] because that's what you did in Siege Warfare.

[00:56:49] I know, but...

[00:56:51] It's just certain, I'm certain now.

[00:56:53] It's okay, we can think of modern uses for the snack catapult.

[00:56:57] Yeah, so essentially there's whole idea of him being a mercenary or a good night.

[00:57:01] It's a later construction.

[00:57:03] Later on when Chivalry, the ethical codes that govern it start to change

[00:57:08] and different parts of it are brought to the surface.

[00:57:11] So it becomes much more about religious service.

[00:57:13] It becomes much more about loyal service to your Lord.

[00:57:16] That's when we start getting these revisionist histories like the Kandalemi,

[00:57:21] I'll see, that style him is this fantastically loyal figure.

[00:57:24] Earlier on, his compatriots would have had no problem with the idea

[00:57:28] that he often autonomously found himself a kingdom.

[00:57:30] That would be about the pinnacle of achievement at that time.

[00:57:34] No one would have begrudged him that.

[00:57:36] So he was most likely a mercenary.

[00:57:39] He was most likely out for himself.

[00:57:41] He was getting that coin,

[00:57:44] but then at some point the folklore shifted.

[00:57:47] So is there like of all the folklore written about Elsa's?

[00:57:52] Does this movie seem to pull from any one thing in particular?

[00:57:58] For the most part, it pulls from those two epic poems that I've already mentioned.

[00:58:02] So it pulls from the Kandalemi or Seeth, which is from the early 1200s.

[00:58:06] We think and it pulls from Mossadalis de Rodrigo,

[00:58:09] which is that later 1360 epic, which talks about his youthful deeds.

[00:58:15] So that one especially, we don't get too much of it because obviously in this film,

[00:58:20] he's already an adult, he's already leader of the army.

[00:58:22] We don't get any of that youthful messing about that we get in the poem,

[00:58:25] but what we do get from that is that sense that he had to find favor with Shaman again,

[00:58:32] because he had killed her father.

[00:58:34] That's drawn directly from that and that's replicated in that 70th century drama.

[00:58:39] It comes up quite a lot because it just adds all of this dramatic tension to the love story.

[00:58:44] The Kandalemi or Seeth is probably where we get this portrayal of this fabulously loyal,

[00:58:51] higher figure. What's interesting though, is that in these medieval ballads,

[00:58:59] as you get further through into the medieval period and certainly to the early modern period,

[00:59:03] where I'm looking at the conquistadors,

[00:59:05] El Cid is reimagined in quite a specific way in terms of his relationship with the Muslims.

[00:59:10] As Crusade culture kind of gathers speed in Europe,

[00:59:15] this idea that he served Christian and Muslim lords equally,

[00:59:19] starts to get edited out of the story because he starts to be framed as a Christian warrior,

[00:59:24] a warrior for God, for Christ and them.

[00:59:28] That doesn't really feature in those early stories and interestingly in this modern adaptation,

[00:59:33] it doesn't feature there either because the root of his heroism in the film is actually his tolerance,

[00:59:39] and the fact that he's able to serve both sides and kind of bridge that gap.

[00:59:45] But that is something that the American film has put in and was not that common in those sort of early modern adaptations.

[00:59:56] Oh, shocking, religious tolerance was that a big thing.

[01:00:01] Well it's also something interestingly that meant that Franco didn't get exactly what he bargained for,

[01:00:07] because Franco's vision of the Spanish past was very much this idea that El Cid and people light up

[01:00:15] and the American film had driven out the forces of the outside,

[01:00:18] had driven out these external forces of destruction and chaos.

[01:00:23] Whereas the American film doesn't really give you that interestingly it's drawing from this idea of the 1960 civil rights movement in the US,

[01:00:32] and you have this idea that actually a nation that's born of a blended population can work,

[01:00:38] the bridging the gap, can be productive.

[01:00:41] I was just very interesting, yeah because I was going to ask why do you think they meet that choice,

[01:00:48] given that there was not from the source of material. So what you already answered that question?

[01:00:53] Very cool. Well it's interesting that in doing that, in kind of transplanting the civil rights debate into this film,

[01:01:00] we actually get a Rodrigo that's true or two the historical figure,

[01:01:04] because we do get a knight who has friends and masters on both sides of that divide,

[01:01:10] which is true at the 11th century reality. I mean the political conflicts that are going on in Spain at that time

[01:01:16] are not necessarily through religious lines.

[01:01:19] I'll also and his brothers for each other a lot. No shit!

[01:01:25] A lot! And even the Muslim leaders of these various typhour kingdoms, they for each other too,

[01:01:32] there's a very famous battle in the 1060s where Rodrigo is leading a mixed army of Alfonso's men

[01:01:40] and the men of the Emir of Zaragoza against one of Alfonso's brothers.

[01:01:45] So this idea that the cooperation couldn't happen, it's actually a later medieval invention at the time.

[01:01:52] The political divides were very much about territory, about wealth, about economy. They weren't really anything to do with religion.

[01:01:59] That comes later. So oddly this idea of a tolerant Rodrigo of a merciful and more accepting figure is actually true

[01:02:09] to the history than some of those things that we get in the 17th and 18th century.

[01:02:15] Okay, so I have a last question for you, our expert Clara. What was going on in Spain?

[01:02:20] In 1959, 1960, that me Franco wanted back this film.

[01:02:27] So like we've already touched upon Spanish history and this relationship that it has with the religious divide

[01:02:33] that existed in the country from the 700s is a really interesting evolving thing that changes all the time.

[01:02:41] By the time the 20th century came around a key part of Spain's own national origins story,

[01:02:46] the story that they were telling themselves is this idea of the reconquester, which means reconquest.

[01:02:52] It's the idea that the Christians were beaten back by the Moors but little by little.

[01:02:58] They chipped back, they reconquered the country and this ends in 1492 with the final fall of the Moors at Granada.

[01:03:06] So this term appears in the 19th century to describe this 700 year process of reestablishing Christian rule across the whole peninsula.

[01:03:15] And this idea of Spain that it had of itself comes to be associated with Spanishness and religious sameness.

[01:03:23] Spain is a Catholic country and its personality is basically defined by this religious sameness.

[01:03:30] After the fall of Granada, Moors and Jews and lots of other groups are expelled from the country.

[01:03:37] So it all becomes part of its identity.

[01:03:39] So when you get Franco and his right wing party, they really see is on this idea.

[01:03:45] This idea of sameness, this idea of pushing outside influences.

[01:03:50] So by the time you get to the 1960s, you're seeing a period of the end of the post-civil war austerity.

[01:03:57] The civil war in the 1930s had ripped the country apart.

[01:04:00] Franco comes out on top and he's looking for ways to kind of sell his idea of Spain, which is Catholic.

[01:04:08] And it's military, really. It's a militant power.

[01:04:13] So big cultural and infrastructure projects like this film are a huge part of restoring Spain's image on the global scene,

[01:04:19] but also trying to sell this image of Spain to the people of Spain to try and create an national identity that is based around these right wing values.

[01:04:29] So Franco's propaganda often made flattering comparisons between himself and El Cid.

[01:04:35] And they're both held up to be this kind of unifying crusader who pushes out those external forces.

[01:04:42] For El Cid it's the Moors, which we know is not accurate, but that's how he's selling it.

[01:04:47] For Franco it's communists. I mean same difference. You know, these are destructive forces that threaten to undermine national unity.

[01:04:54] And that's where the comparison comes in. But interestingly, we know that in that sense he kind of didn't get the film that he was hoping for.

[01:05:03] He got a film that showed Spain as this grand exotic fabulous land. That was great, but actually the idea of El Cid fraterizing with Mutami and saying,

[01:05:15] You'll make a muslim. Yeah. Yeah. It's probably not exactly what he was hoping for.

[01:05:20] I'm sure he loved that beginning scene where he's like stroking the bald head of a priest and then carrying the cross. Oh my god. Yeah.

[01:05:30] Just to save it from being burned. And the whole like leproselasuras, you know, out of nowhere.

[01:05:38] Yeah. There's an extraordinary biblical imagery, the burden of the cross, the scene with Lazarus, the leprosel,

[01:05:45] where he, you know, selflessly gives up his water for him. And like you rightly said, the absurd scene where he is ridden out of the city as a dead man.

[01:05:53] It's a damn, it's giving angel. All rising from the dead. It's powerful. It's resurrection.

[01:06:01] It's all of those things. So the Catholic themes are there. But unfortunately, so is the civil rights tolerance,

[01:06:08] which Franco is probably not quite as on board with. It's giving angel.

[01:06:19] So thankfully for the memory of El Sid, this is not the only version of his life. As we've already touched on,

[01:06:27] we've got a pretty awesome cartoon which is available on YouTube in Spanish, which if you're studying Spanish,

[01:06:35] if you want to learn Spanish better, what better way to do that than to watch a cartoon?

[01:06:40] That's one of the things I'm doing to try to better my Spanish. So you should go and watch El Sid La Leenda on YouTube.

[01:06:48] If you want to get some really good Rodrigo and his horse content, nice.

[01:06:53] There is again this kid's TV show, which my Spanish friend told me about, but I've only seen the trailer for it.

[01:07:01] It looks very cute. Is it from the 70s? Or does it just look like it's from the 70s?

[01:07:07] And it's also from the 2000s. I don't know. But most recently, there's this 2020 TV series on Amazon Prime,

[01:07:15] which I also recommend because it has this very cool kind of Spanish, I hate using this analogy,

[01:07:24] but kind of game of thrones ish in that there's a lot of kind of battle for power amongst already powerful people

[01:07:32] and also jousting. So if you like a bit of medieval times, there's that as well.

[01:07:40] I've only seen the first few episodes, but there's already like a hot el Sid, but in an approachable hot way,

[01:07:49] like an actual hot way, it's his kind of youth as a page kind of coming up in the court of King Fernando

[01:07:59] and he's like the page of El Sancho, and there's a whole scene of a princess pooping in a castle.

[01:08:09] So what else could you want? It's such a good scene as well.

[01:08:18] If you want authentic, historically accurate medieval princess pooping, then you need to go watch El Sid on Amazon Prime.

[01:08:28] And what I really like about that series is that it seems like as you said, Clara, you said this thing about,

[01:08:36] I'm going to every generation kind of add their own thing to El Sid, right?

[01:08:41] And I feel like our generation now has kind of brought him back down.

[01:08:47] They're like let's see him when he's a nobody and he's really imperfect and he's kind of trying to do the right thing,

[01:08:53] he's fucking up and he has a weird medieval mallet, but we're like horny about it anyway.

[01:09:00] It's interesting that we like you say, we crave an imperfect hero in a way that perhaps the 1960s did

[01:09:06] and but what's also really interesting actually is the way that even now, not that much has changed

[01:09:13] in some senses. I think the more-ish characters in the 2020 series, there's still this incredible exocticism around them.

[01:09:21] The foreign princess who seducers him with her silks and her perfumes, it's not that different from the way that we see them

[01:09:28] more in the 1960s where they kind of represent this exotic eastern other, these incredible like,

[01:09:35] kind of repulsion and a lure that the other has for us. You sort of love them, but you're frightened of them.

[01:09:41] They're threatening, but sexy, all of that kind of stuff. And the princess Oraka comes out of both terribly.

[01:09:48] The women are terrible schemas in the 1960s and in the 2020s, so just this for the royal women.

[01:09:56] And doing justice for the royal women especially because they have Oraka also doing sibling inserts.

[01:10:03] Which isn't an interesting thing, because this is very common in the medieval literature.

[01:10:07] Powerful women are often kind of presented as these weird sort of scheming and sensuous witches.

[01:10:15] So it's kind of depressing but comforting fact that you know, 500, 700 years come past, but we still kind of hate women.

[01:10:24] You know, they still have to sort of be the Balovies somehow.

[01:10:29] And we have to see them poop.

[01:10:32] Okay, but I'm not mad about the princess pooping. I am mad about the racism and the women hating, but I feel like I don't know why I'm defending pooping so strongly.

[01:10:45] But I think I just really liked to see the mechanics of it of how it worked in the castle.

[01:10:51] And if you want to watch Elcid with full overture and intermission, go look for it on YouTube.

[01:11:01] So we will experience.

[01:11:02] Cam and I often say that we provide a summary for the films that we cover.

[01:11:07] Just in case anyone kind of doesn't want to watch the film for whatever reason, but wants to know about it, wants to know about some of the history behind it.

[01:11:18] And if this is one of those films for you listener, I would encourage you to either go to BBC iPlayer or YouTube.

[01:11:27] And just watch maybe the last half hour, the last 15 minutes of this film.

[01:11:34] You don't need any other context really.

[01:11:37] You could forget everything that we just said and just watch what Hollywood filmmakers decided to do with Charlton Heston and a horse on a beach in the year of our Lord, 1961.

[01:11:59] Oh wonderful.

[01:12:01] So having said all of that, Clara, you had some homework to do here.

[01:12:06] In addition to watching Elcid and doing your whole entire PhD, we have asked you to give this movie an award.

[01:12:15] And what award have you decided to give this film?

[01:12:18] Well I thought about it long and hard. There was lots of candidates, longest jousting scene ever.

[01:12:23] Worst pronunciation of humana ever.

[01:12:27] There was lots to think about, but I think like you said, we have to give the listeners what they want.

[01:12:34] And we have to come back to that final scene.

[01:12:37] So my award for Elcid, 1961 is the best impression of a corpse ever committed to screem history.

[01:12:46] Seeing Charlton Heston in all his rigid, rigor mortars, finally a top his real horse,

[01:12:53] galloping down the beach and that final scene.

[01:12:56] It's a sight to behold, and I really recommend people go look that up.

[01:13:00] It's not her sorely accurate, but your life will be better for it.

[01:13:04] Really will you have nightmares, but you'll cherish them.

[01:13:06] I think you know, and watch it in slow-more and like zoom in if you can.

[01:13:10] What kind of talk does you do if you believe?

[01:13:14] See, see if you believe in the eyes that eyes really sell it.

[01:13:17] See eyes, babies. So if you go on to the IMDB facts for this film and you go to the goofs category,

[01:13:24] there is a litany of things just about this scene about how Charlton Heston blanked or moved or tutored or whatever.

[01:13:34] To show that he was not dead on that horse.

[01:13:37] And I feel like he did that on purpose out of spite.

[01:13:39] I'm not dead guys. I deserve an Oscar footage.

[01:13:46] But you were my to be again of the the mispronunciation of Shemain.

[01:13:52] And can I offer please a remake of this film?

[01:13:56] So the other problem I had with this like as an American and living in Britain,

[01:14:01] where we have the name Sid as kind of like your cousin who lives in the country,

[01:14:09] who maybe works at Sonic. And I need, I think, kind of an remake of this film,

[01:14:17] a remake of the life of El Sid as like an American Gothic story starring two characters called Shemain.

[01:14:29] Spelled like S.H.E.M.A.Y. and N.E.

[01:14:34] And Sid spelled S.H.E.E.Y.

[01:14:38] like Sid from Toy Story.

[01:14:42] That's all I have.

[01:14:44] Perfect thank you.

[01:14:45] You writers, you can take it from there.

[01:14:48] But my award for this film was difficult because I thought maybe like safest battle scenes,

[01:14:55] because of all of the kind of like very light hitting.

[01:14:58] But as Kim and I talked about the horses in this film,

[01:15:05] we care a lot about kind of how animal actors are treated in period dramas.

[01:15:10] And we don't know anything about the horses or how they fared.

[01:15:15] But we can assume that they were like actor horses who were taught how to fall.

[01:15:20] They weren't some of them were online from the Spanish-mounted police.

[01:15:24] Oh my god, a shot!

[01:15:26] You found stuff.

[01:15:27] Okay.

[01:15:27] They were police horses.

[01:15:30] So, what would a poor baby?

[01:15:31] Clara has done more research than I have.

[01:15:36] So, what we're saying is that horses weren't necessarily treated very well.

[01:15:43] They were maybe police horses.

[01:15:45] They definitely had arrows shot at them like in their faces.

[01:15:49] Like maybe those arrows were made as like restaurant straws.

[01:15:53] But it's not- Yeah, I saw the little one restaurant straws coming in my face.

[01:15:57] Nobody wants that.

[01:15:59] So then, in light of the way the horses were treated, I didn't want to say I didn't want to give an award for, you know, safest battles.

[01:16:06] Because I don't feel like the horses felt safe.

[01:16:09] But I did notice that at multiple times in the film, people got some shit thrown at their faces.

[01:16:19] And it was clear that whatever it was did not hurt.

[01:16:24] So, I'm just going to-

[01:16:27] I think it's totally fine if it's a human act that he signed up for them.

[01:16:30] No, absolutely.

[01:16:31] So there's a guy who got a rock thrown at his face.

[01:16:34] There's a guy who got hit with the glove, right?

[01:16:38] Oh yeah.

[01:16:39] Even though it was the glove heard around the castle and like everybody heard it in an echoed everywhere.

[01:16:44] It did not look like it heard.

[01:16:46] Sometimes I got a saddle thrown at his face and then in the final battle,

[01:16:51] a dude got like a lit, fired torch thrown at his face.

[01:16:56] Someone's just like, oh my gosh.

[01:16:58] So my award is for best stuff thrown at faces.

[01:17:05] Amazing.

[01:17:07] So on that, you know, on the line of violence, going throughing shit.

[01:17:15] My- my award is for best food delivery system.

[01:17:22] Yes, just the bread capipols, right?

[01:17:25] And I was so, you know, today, right, this today, it was an un- you know, seasonably well.

[01:17:33] Technically seasonably.

[01:17:35] Technically seasonably but it's England, it doesn't really get- it's not supposed to get this hot.

[01:17:40] Anyway, it was 30 degrees today.

[01:17:42] It's England.

[01:17:44] We can't handle 30 degrees, you know, Celsius, even though I'm from Singapore, I can handle the

[01:17:50] either.

[01:17:51] I was like bloody hot today and I could have, and I was like, I really want some food.

[01:17:55] I could have gone out to get something but I mean, I had food at home.

[01:18:00] I want something else.

[01:18:01] And I was like, I can go out and get it or I can wish really, really hard for someone to catapult

[01:18:06] into my house.

[01:18:08] Why is I try the letter and it didn't work though, but so anyway.

[01:18:12] I can dream what if someone had catapulted you like a sphere, like a hamster wheel, kind of full of

[01:18:23] gazpacho?

[01:18:25] Oh no!

[01:18:27] I'm sorry I always try to think of like a cold treat.

[01:18:31] Like, how long you could put some how long in there, you know, it's better you should

[01:18:35] eat any half a day.

[01:18:36] How about a smoothie?

[01:18:37] Oh, no, I don't want it smashing at all.

[01:18:40] It wants a big heart like a frozen something.

[01:18:43] Anyway, it didn't happen.

[01:18:45] I was very sad.

[01:18:47] But so therefore I'm still standing by the best food delivery system being the bread catapult.

[01:18:53] Deliverer, if you'll listen, this is all free information for me.

[01:18:57] Yes.

[01:18:59] We'll happily sponsor Deliverer if you start using catapults.

[01:19:03] There we go.

[01:19:05] Alright, one more time.

[01:19:08] Claire Chamberlain.

[01:19:10] You not only are a really, really fun story into talk to you, you have a brilliant Instagram

[01:19:16] and a brilliant sub stack.

[01:19:18] Will you tell us how we can access them?

[01:19:21] How can we get it you?

[01:19:23] Absolutely so you can find me on Instagram at Clara Beach,

[01:19:26] and I have a link tree there where you can find all of my work.

[01:19:30] I write a sub-sat called Once Upon a Time, Long ago.

[01:19:32] Hopefully I'm giving you Fairfax, but with a little bit of humor.

[01:19:36] So come and find me there if that's your kind of thing.

[01:19:38] Awesome.

[01:19:39] Awesome.

[01:19:39] Look, I'm following you right now.

[01:19:43] Thank you, Claire, for being with us.

[01:19:45] It has been so much fun.

[01:19:48] You basically forced us to watch an 18 hour long movie about a dude I'd never heard of.

[01:19:57] And it was extraordinary.

[01:19:59] I never thought I would have so much fun both watching it and talking about it.

[01:20:04] Thank you so much for that.

[01:20:06] Thank you so much for having me.

[01:20:07] It's been really good fun.

[01:20:08] Okay, and now we all say goodbye.

[01:20:11] Goodbye.