The Fainting Couch: My Policeman (2022 Movie) ft. Christopher Clannachan from Equality Network

[00:00:10] Hello and welcome to a very special Fainting Couch edition of Fetch the Smelling Salts, a podcast all about period dramas from every era and around the world. On Fainting Couch episodes, we serve you subjects we normally can't cover on regular episodes like subgenres, particular eras, or films that are out in the cinema.

[00:00:31] Today's Fainting Couch is extra double ultra special because it is part of the international podcast for charity initiative extravaganza called PodcastOn. PodcastOn is a week-long podcasting event where hundreds of podcasts all over the world partner with charities that are dear to them.

[00:00:54] So here's how it works. Every participating podcast, like us, dedicates an episode to their charity and those episodes are all being released this week. Most importantly, all these podcasts are registered with their charity on the PodcastOn website where you can find more information about the charities and how to support them.

[00:01:18] You may have noticed that you're only hearing one person so far, me, Alice, and that is because Kim is working her money job today, the one that feeds her pets. But don't worry, I have an exceptional replacement for her who is joining us from our partnered charity here in Scotland, Equality Network, and his name is Christopher Clannaghan. Hi, Christopher! Hi, how are you doing?

[00:01:47] I'm great, how are you? I'm not bad, it's dry in Glasgow, so that makes a change. Christopher is the policy and campaigns officer at Equality Network, but not only that, he is a trained lawyer, and if that weren't impressive enough, he is an absolutely sickening drag queen by the name of Lady Rampant, whom I followed on Instagram before he even started working at Equality Network. Wow. That is true.

[00:02:17] I did not know that. Wow, we've got a fan in the room. Thank you so much. So I saw that you're doing a show in Sterling, which of course I can't go to, with Kate Butch and LaVoie. Yes, that's correct, yeah. Which is fantastic. Which is fantastic. I love LaVoie, and the last drag show I actually went to was during the Edinburgh Fringe, and it was Kate Butch's show. Ah. And it was the hottest drag show I've ever been to.

[00:02:48] It was very warm. It was very, the temperature was very warm in there. Well, that's rare. That's rare, because usually we're all backstage freezing. No. We're traveling in the snow and the wind and the rain, so you must have got us a melt in. We were all melting, but we couldn't tell. Kate didn't let anyone know. No, she did. She complained the whole time. I would have done the exact same. I would not have needed to work with it. That was so funny. So can you, Christopher, please tell the people about Equality Network? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:03:18] So I started the Equality Network last year, and as you mentioned, I'm the policy and campaigns officer there. The Equality Network is a charity based in Scotland, and our work essentially surrounds the need to improve equality and human rights for LGBTI people in Scotland. And we've existed now since 1997, and part of our remit has been to do exactly that,

[00:03:45] to make change for LGBT people living in Scotland. Our current staff team, we're broken into several different teams. Me, myself, I'm part of the policy team, which sits in strategic spaces and influences policy for change for LGBT people with people like the Scottish Government, Police Scotland, the NHS, and so forth. We also have a community engagement and development officer and team

[00:04:13] that works with developing grassroots LGBT organizations and supporting prides across the country. We also do training for other organizations and public bodies, and we have a disability, no diversity, and inclusion team. So we have a variety of different teams working across different subject areas, but all under the banner of the Equality Network. And I should say as well, we do have the trans-specific project here in Scotland,

[00:04:42] which is called Scottish Trans. Yeah, of course. Yeah, people oftentimes mistake that as a separate organization, but it's actually a project within the Equality Network, specifically focusing on trans inclusion and furthering the situation for trans and non-binary people's equality in human rights in Scotland. So we're very busy, as you can imagine. Yeah, that's amazing. We love the work that you do. We've been following you guys for years, and we're so happy that you've decided to partner with us. Yes.

[00:05:11] Now, we asked Christopher to watch the 2022 movie My Policeman, which is available on Amazon Prime, and to come on and to talk about it and a bit about the history and current status of human rights for LGBTI people in the UK. And I know Kim is so jealous and gutted right now that she can't be doing that with us

[00:05:35] because one of the things that drew us together is that we are two bi ladies who love period dramas. So, of course, we love queer stories and period dramas. And we even have another Fainting Couch episode all about them. It is called Queeried Dramas. So please do go and listen to that. And we are both big fans of drag. So she's doubly gagged right now. So I'm going to give a shorter than usual summary of the film that we watched today with spoilers

[00:06:04] and then talk a little bit about the history of the film. I don't have a lot, but just a little bit of background. Like, did you know that this was based on a book? I did not. No. After I finished watching the session, I had a look and seen that it was based on a true story. Yeah. So did you know then that that book is based on real life? Yeah. And would you be surprised to hear that of these three things, the real life story is the least sad? Wow. Yeah.

[00:06:33] Just goes to show you what sales movies these days. Right. So this movie was the saddest. I didn't realize how sad it was going to be when I picked it. I saw the trailer and I guess I hoped that we would get to see these three hot actors making it work and kind of becoming a throuple and all kissing. And that's not what happens. And like, ours is such a normally silly podcast as well. Like, we're deeply unserious most of the time.

[00:07:03] And now we finally have a drag artist on and it's to talk about one of the saddest movies we've ever covered. Typical. And like, truly, when I finished watching the movie yesterday, I needed a palate cleanser. So I switched over to Drag Race All Stars 9. Wow. Which is what I'm going through. There are many seasons to choose from, to be fair. Your girl has a WoW Presents Plus app subscription. Anyway. Okay. But we made it through it.

[00:07:32] We'll find. It is also kind of a ridiculous movie. I mean, the way that they shoehorn in some of the saddest things they possibly can is ridiculous. So should we get into the summary? Yeah. Go for it. All right. Let's do it. So My Policeman follows three characters, Marion, Patrick, and Tom, through two storylines.

[00:07:56] One in like circa 1998 and the other, which is the majority of the film, is told through flashbacks between 1957 and 1958. In 1998, Old Patrick, I'm just going to call him Old Patrick in the future, which is also the past. There are a lot of like historical time period layers to this whole story.

[00:08:19] In 1998, Old Patrick, he's played by Rupert Everett, is wheelchair bound and in need of care after what appears to be a major stroke. And he is brought to the seaside home of Old Marion, played by Gina McKee, and Old Tom, played by Lynette Roach. Much to Tom's dismay. While Tom like pouts about the whole situation and won't even be in the same room as Patrick, which is wild because this is not a big house.

[00:08:48] There's like one reception room and like two bedrooms. And while he's doing that, just like not, just like avoiding most of his house, Marion and some visiting nurses look after Patrick. And Marion also reads through Patrick's old diaries, which came in a box containing like all of his earthly possessions. It's like two knickknacks and a stack of journals.

[00:09:15] And she starts with entries from July 1957. Through the diaries, we are taken to Brighton in 1957, where we meet young Marion, played by Emma Corrin. And period drama lovers might recognize her as Lady Chatterley from an adaptation of Lady Chatterley's Lover, which we covered. Young Tom, played by Harry Styles.

[00:09:40] And young Patrick, played by David Dawson, who is the only one who won an award for this film. I think it was like an MTV award, but I can't remember. But yeah, he was so brilliant. Yeah. I want to see everything he's in now. Now, Marion is a young teacher just out of training college. And Tom is her friend's brother, who has just become a policeman. And the two begin dating, sort of, even though he doesn't even try to kiss her.

[00:10:09] And she's not really even convinced that he's romantically interested in her. But he does take her to the Brighton Art Museum and Gallery and tells her that, like, while he was on his beat, he met the director of Western art, Patrick, when Patrick was a witness to an accident. And apparently they'd gotten chatting, and Patrick invited him for a private museum tour.

[00:10:36] So naturally, Tom decided to bring his best gal, Marion. And Patrick soon becomes a great friend of them both, and they go out as a trio and have lots of laughs. And Marion thinks that Patrick might even like her. What Marion doesn't know is that although Tom did meet Patrick in the way he said, it was much sooner than he said.

[00:11:00] And it quickly led to smooching and underpants smooching, which is what I call oral sex, and much sexy butt touching. Before Tom, like, ever showed an interest in Marion. After living in, like, a friend-situationship, almost love triangle for a few months, Tom decides that he wants to get married so that he can advance his career as a policeman and have children.

[00:11:30] Do they even have children in the movie? Is there any indication? Like, we don't see any evidence of any children having had happened. No, and I feel like if there was, we would have seen that through the photographs, because it does start with a photograph of them on their wedding day. So I feel like if there were children, we would have maybe have, that would have been hinted at with more photos of, like, a long extended family, but we didn't get any of them. Yeah. Okay. Where was I?

[00:11:57] But Patrick and Tom don't want to give each other up. So now it's all fully triangulified with Tom sleeping with both Marion and Patrick. And Patrick even shows up on their honeymoon, at their honeymoon cottage, and Marion sees them kind of canoodling a little bit in the shed. And she's freaked out, but there's some plausible deniability because she doesn't see them, like, necking or anything like that.

[00:12:26] They're just kind of embracing and whispering to each other. So. But in a very close manner. I mean. Yeah. Like, already, if you're in a shed, no matter what you're doing, if you're, like, whispering in each other's faces in a shed, you know there's, it's not platonic. Yeah. Unless you're, like, doing a drug deal. And we don't think they were doing that. But yeah, just the way, obviously, their heads were together, they were, like, holding each other's shoulders.

[00:12:54] It was, yeah, very clear to Marion, I think. Even after that, they almost seemed to get away with it until Patrick and Tom decide to do their little Venice plan. They decide to go to Venice together for museum work. And Marion can't live in denial anymore. Her boat on denial sinks. And she decides she needs to fix or save Tom.

[00:13:22] And the next thing we know, Patrick gets arrested for gross indecency after someone tips off the police that he's a homosexual. There's a whole trial. And Marion stands up for him as a character witness. But the barrister has Patrick's diaries. And although in the diaries he doesn't use names, it's clear that he is writing about a sexual relationship with, quote, my policeman, who is Tom. Patrick gets sentenced to two years in prison.

[00:13:52] Tom loses his job. And Tom insists that they carry on with their marriage and never speak of Patrick again. Ben, inexplicably, 40 years later, in the 90s, Marion has decided that she can't be with Tom anymore. That part is explicable. But I mean, I more mean the after not speaking to him for 40 years,

[00:14:19] her taking Patrick in to their home to be looked after as though they like were never in touch. Yeah. In between. But anyway, she decides she needs to get out. And she confesses that she is the one who ratted out Patrick to the museum and destroyed his life. And Marion says she needs to leave so that Tom is forced to care for Patrick and be in love with him until Patrick dies. And that's, I guess, what happens. The end.

[00:14:50] I mean, they did at the start say like all love stories are tragedies or all love stories are tragic. And I thought, oh, this is some foreshadowing of what's to come. Oh, God, yeah. Exactly. It's just a big bummer flag that they are waving to us right at the start. That line really stood out to me as well. It's like, just so you know, this is not joyful. Yeah. This is not one of those movies. This is going to end really badly.

[00:15:18] And it's, it truly did not need to be that sad. Yeah. The book that this is based on is also called My Policeman. It was written in 2012 by Bethan Roberts. And it follows basically the same storyline, but only in the 1950s. So there's no old anybody, there's no 90s. And we actually don't know what happens after Patrick gets arrested.

[00:15:47] At least that's what I gleaned from the Wikipedia summary. I did not read this book. I only found out last night that this book existed. So that's at least a bit better than the very heavy handed and frankly confusing element of the future that we get in the film.

[00:16:09] But as we already talked a little bit about, this story is inspired by a true story from the life of E.M. Forrester, who you may recognize as the author of A Room with a View, my favorite period drama and one that we've covered. Morris, which is one that we talk about in our query drama episode. Howard's End and A Passage to India.

[00:16:35] So this story that was the inspiration for the book and film is the story of his 40 year relationship with policeman Robert Buckingham and Robert's wife, May. So just a little bit about them and to add more kind of period layers to all of this. Their story didn't really take place. At least it didn't begin in the 50s.

[00:16:59] They met in 1930 and were involved in a relationship until Forrester's death in 1970. Robert Buckingham was a policeman and he was 28 when he met 51 year olds, established author E.M. Forrester. Now Forrester had this like kind of pattern. He had a type.

[00:17:23] He had a reputation for, he really liked not just younger men, but he liked because he was wealthy and upper class and went to like prep school in Cambridge. He liked a bit of rough. And you can see this in some of the stories, especially Morris. So he always felt like he liked taking them as lovers, but he could never really be in love with one of these like men of the lower classes.

[00:17:51] And that was until he met Robert Buckingham and they like really and truly fell in love. But then not long after they met, Robert met a nurse called May and in 1932, they got married. So May also worked it out that they were in this relationship that was not just frenzies. But she wanted to maintain the relationship with E.M. Forrester. And so she worked it out.

[00:18:21] She kind of went with it. And it was helped by the fact that when May got tuberculosis and was sent to a sanatorium, Forrester said that he would like stay with Robert Buckingham and take care of him and make sure their son was taken care of. He was also the godfather of their son. Wow. So he took Robert to Amsterdam, gave him all of these opportunities, and he started writing regular letters to May.

[00:18:50] So their relationship started out pretty antagonistically. There was a lot of competition and a lot of secrecy still, even though it was an open secret at this point. But through these letters, they became really good pals. And when May recovered and came home, they worked out a system for sharing Robert.

[00:19:16] So like she would get him on short weekends and Forrester would get him on long weekends. And then during the week, he'd just be like going to work and going home to his family. And then like when their son died from Hodgkin's disease, Forrester was this huge main support system for her. So in the late 1960s and 1970, when Forrester had a series of strokes, it was May who took him into their house and nursed him until he died.

[00:19:46] Right. Okay. So it differs from the movie then. Absolutely. And it's so funny because I spent this whole movie thinking like, couldn't they have just made this work? I mean, if you're really both that enamored with Copper Harry Styles, can you just say, they seem to get on as friends anyway. They have a lot of the same interests. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And it was, it was a very strange dynamic. And at the beginning, they were going on like date nights together as the three.

[00:20:16] And immediately I was like, like, what is going on here? And then of course you find out that she is being kept in the dark because their relationship actually started before Tom, Harry Styles got with Marion. So yeah, very complicated, very complex characters. And in fact, probably the least complex is probably Patrick, I would say. He just is who he is and he wants what he wants. Yeah. He's the easiest to sort of understand.

[00:20:43] But between Marion and Tom and the lack of communication and miscommunication and a lot of awkward, very awkward engagements together. Yeah. Multiple layers to that, I think. So there are two things that I want to ask you about here.

[00:20:58] One is like, how reflective is this of people's realities in the 1950s, in this community, in the LGBTI community, trying to maintain relationships with the social stigma and the law to contend with? I mean, I think that the movie shows a particular portrayal of one queer relationship from that time.

[00:21:25] I think that it probably does some things quite well and that you really get that it's from that time period. And there's things that are mentioned like homosexuality. Be careful what you're saying. This idea that you can't even talk about homosexuality because it's that bad. But I do think if we're looking at the broader picture of the queer community from that time frame,

[00:21:47] there's a lot of things missing from the movie and probably because they didn't factor into the real life stories of the people of whom this book is based on. But some of the things that are missing is like the class element. This is like a very middle class portrayal of going to the opera and drinking wine and going to art galleries and museums and Venice.

[00:22:12] And of course, that's not reflective of the entirety of the queer community then and also now. I think, of course, we don't really get an insight into anything really to do with gender identity or any sort of like gender fluidity. It's very much based on two white guys having an affair, having a relationship.

[00:22:35] And I think the only sort of the only line that that comes through about more femme presenting queer people, as I think Tom says something to Marion along the lines of, I'm not like them. Yeah. You should come down to the station and see them. They wear rouge. They have this walk. And that idea of like toxic masculinity or that sort of like putting down of more flamboyant or femme queer people,

[00:23:05] I think was probably an internalized homophobia going on there, which is also very layered in itself. But I think, yeah, I think it did an okay job of portraying one relationship, but I wouldn't say it was entirely reflective of the queer community. Tom's explanation or like attempted defense is so interesting to me because it's so, his sexuality is so tied up with masculinity and he is a really masculine guy.

[00:23:34] And so he is clearly struggling with this idea that he could even be gay because he is a cop and he likes beer and he, you know, isn't well-educated and like isn't feminine and doesn't have feminine interests. And we don't see Patrick being feminine either, but for him, he's still a little bit able to,

[00:24:03] I think because he's an upper class man, or at least he's a very well-educated man, that he can show what I think at the time were more kind of feminine interests like art. Definitely. And I think that that's something that probably still does come through to the queer community today. People who are not inclusive or sort of like put down more feminine people nowadays, or that they, we have this saying mask for mask, you know,

[00:24:31] these sort of like masculine gay guys are only going to date and get with other masculine gay guys. And that's, that's still a thing today. But I think that the movie, if it was to contrast the very sort of like flamboyant and queer Patrick with Harry, there wasn't like a masses of difference other than you see a bit like the interests in art and working at the museum and stuff like that, which in itself is, is very queer. Like it'd been set in an art gallery in a museum.

[00:24:57] I'm like, and the library at one point, I'm like, oh yeah, but there's some queer coding here. I like this. I love that like libraries are queer now. Yes. Scanning. I like to imagine Patrick, if he had lived and been in that age nowadays, that he would have made a stellar drag artist because he has a beautiful face, beautiful face structure and an artistic inclination.

[00:25:26] Yeah, absolutely. They would have been season 400 went out of Drag Race if it started in the day. What is exactly the age difference between Patrick and Marion and Tom? Because they do comment on him being older than them, but it doesn't look like the kind of difference that we saw between Robert Buckingham and Ian Forrester. Yeah, absolutely not.

[00:25:53] I would say that the age difference between five and 10 years, but the age difference wasn't really something that was portrayed through the movie. Like looking at it objectively, you don't say, oh, there's a huge age gap between them. Like that was not something that even really registered to me until like halfway through the film. Whereas when we're looking at the photographs of the original characters, it's maybe a bit more obvious the age gap. Yeah. So I sent you a photograph of Ian Forrester and Robert Buckingham together.

[00:26:22] They're actually posing. I think they're on the boat to America on another holiday that they took. And they just decided to get these portraits taken together. And I sent it to you in part because I think the characters kind of look, they kind of mirror like Patrick and Tom a little bit. Yeah, it's interesting. And also that another interesting thing was the fact that Patrick draws Tom. So Patrick has done a portrait.

[00:26:51] And when Marion comes to visit Patrick's apartment, there's a photo, a drawing of Tom on the wall. And she's like, well, did he draw you? And she's a bit weirded out by this and she doesn't understand it. And I'm like, oh, come on, Marion. Like the writing is literally on the wall here, babes. Just figure it out. Did you pose for this? Yeah. Like, did you sit down in front of him while he drew your facial features? Yeah.

[00:27:21] She's so close. Yeah. Poor thing. And I think they must be maybe just like 19 or 20 if they're just coming out of training college or just joining the police force. So I can understand how they would be kind of young, unsophisticated time of life. Whereas Patrick, even if he's only 5, 10 years older, would seem much more older and sophisticated to them.

[00:27:46] So this is part of a group of period dramas called like the sad gay drama. And it has some of the same story beats and some of the same themes that we see in so many of these. You've got the tragic love story, the love triangle, especially between two men and then a woman who is being harmed because she's in love with one of the men.

[00:28:13] And then some kind of horrible event in which they're caught out and at least one of them has to suffer the consequences. Why are these films so popular? Why do we keep seeing that kind of queer historical story over and over again, do you think? That's a very good question.

[00:28:34] Probably because it makes better TV, it makes better movies apparently to people that it's more, it's better to paint queer people in a negative light and doing something wrong and being deceptive rather than showing queer joy and really successful, happy relationships from that time period that actually inspired joy. And unfortunately, that just doesn't seem to be the case.

[00:29:03] And I think that was one of the issues that I had with the movie. I get it as a real life story. But this idea of deception, you know, queer people are hidden away. We're keeping a secret from you. We're trying to hold the upper card here and know something that you don't know. And it's just a lot of rubbish, to be honest. And I have no doubt there were relationships at that time that did follow that sort of path of deception and having like a bit on the side.

[00:29:32] But at the same time, it's not how we exist as queer people today. And it's something that I'm grateful for, that we don't need to be so secretive about our identities and our relationships. And it's societal progress and campaigning that's made that possible for queer people today. Yeah, you're mentioning that idea of having a secret in a card that you can, that you're hiding, that you can bring out.

[00:29:57] Reminds me of the scene that we get, the one kind of lesbian representation that we get with Marion and her colleague at the school. Which is so interesting because we see this character just in bits and pieces having conversations. And then it's not until Marion is distraught and complaining. She's like, he's gay ways inclined and I need to fix him. What can I do? I have to save my marriage.

[00:30:27] And she, it's like this moralizing kind of like, well, I, I too have this secret. Allow me to present it to you. Here is my lesbian-ness for you to look at and judge. And that's like a device that's played for the movie that this is so brave and strong of her for her to do that. Yeah. And that's what a lot of these characters are there for is to be brave and strong. Yeah. As well as tragic. Yeah.

[00:30:57] I can, I just say, just as an aside, I loved that scene. And it's so funny because when I was watching it, her friend is depicted in like really stylish glasses and she's got like short or cool hair and she's wearing really bright colors. And I was like, oh God, I'm surprised that she's not queer or like a queer character. That would be really good. And then she comes out and says that she is a lesbian. And I was like, I absolutely knew it. I love it. You called it.

[00:31:24] I honestly called it my 1950s gaydar is apparently strong. Amazing. Amazing. And when I was taking notes, literally in my notes, I wrote lesbian friend dash and a big love heart. Yes. Come on. Make it, make that love triangle a square. Oh no. But lesbian friend already has her, her soulmate at home. Yeah. So we love that for her.

[00:31:47] But I also did think that that was an interesting choice because they depicted her as wearing more vibrant colors and looking like a bit more stylish than the character of Marion, whose clothing was a bit, I don't know, just a bit dry, a bit beige, a bit plain. And I thought as soon as I saw her clothes, oh yeah, something could be good on here. And I was right.

[00:32:09] That's so funny because it reminded me of like the first thing that came to my mind was because this is also set in the 90s.

[00:32:17] I was like reflecting on, you know, me in the 90s, like 1998, girl liking Alice, like as, as a little preteen and my idea of a lesbian, because it was still like at the time when I was growing up in the 90s, where, where I was in the suburbs of Chicago, it was absolutely like not okay to be a lesbian. And I didn't know anything about, you were either gay or you were a lesbian or straight.

[00:32:47] And I knew, you know, that sometimes it was okay to be a gay man. It was absolutely not okay to be a lesbian because lesbians dressed like men and had terrible fashion and hair and were really butch and disgusting. Yeah. And so you, that's, that's one of the things that kind of scared me about liking girls is that I didn't want to, I didn't want to be that. I didn't want people to react that way to me and reject me.

[00:33:17] And so it was really fabulous to see this like stunning 1950s lesbian as well. And I wondered if Marion was thinking like, but you don't look like a lesbian, like lesbians wear men's suits and smoke cigars or whatever. Yeah. You could see that she was totally just caught off guard at the fact that a woman may also be gay as well. Oh yeah. Like shit. I didn't know they could do that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:46] It was like very much that you could see in her face, like what is going on? Everybody around me is gay. Like am I gay? Why is everyone keeping this from me? Like that sheer panic, which I thought was quite amusing. God. Yeah. If she were just a little gay, it would have been so much easier for her. Or I don't know, maybe this is like the chaotic bisexual coming out in me because we're like, we have trouble like fathoming the idea that anybody doesn't want to have sex with us.

[00:34:14] But like, I thought, Marion, couldn't you, couldn't you try to, to, to come up with a throuple arrangement? Maybe just get a bigger bed and like you could move into Patrick's apartment. It's way nicer than theirs. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Patrick did show up at their honeymoon for God's sake. So they were basically having a throuple relationship just without her knowing. We saw how well that throuple worked because he can cook better than either of them. They could have been having beef bourguignon the rest of their lives.

[00:34:44] Yeah. And it was an interesting layer because I think it may have actually been the lesbian friend who said to her, you know, Patrick seems a much more natural match for you. You just have a lot of the same interests. You just like the same things. And Marion makes this line of, which I think the movie tries to hint at the class aspect here, even though I don't think that came across well. She says, I don't care if Tom falls asleep in the opera. I don't care if Tom burps when he drinks his beer. I love Tom and that's all fine.

[00:35:11] But in reality, objectively speaking, she is more aligned to Patrick. They do have similar interests. And at the start of the movie, when she's nursing old Patrick, as we're going to call him, when he's had a stroke, she says to him, you're the one who taught me how to look at art. And you're the one who taught me how to see art. And I think that, yeah, the dynamics of the throuple in terms of interests was there also. Yeah.

[00:35:38] And that makes me even more sure that I would love, I just wish we could erase this movie and have a more of a biopic made, like more of something like really inspired by Forrester's weird muddled, but ultimately it seems like pretty healthy and happy relationship. I mean, I don't, there's no indication that he and May ever had anything going on or if

[00:36:07] they were a threesome, but they were a kind of family. Yeah, it's interesting. I think there's a lot of things that the movie could have done better. And as you said, there's a lot of things being shoehorned into it just to make it very purposefully sad. I mean, when they're on one of their dates as a trouple, I think Marion says, oh, I would love to go to Venice one day. And Venice is, if I could go anywhere in the world, it would be Venice. And of course, that's where they, Patrick and Tom go together.

[00:36:35] So it's like that additional blow that not only is her husband cheating on her with a man, but they're going to Venice. And like, as we may discuss, that's the sort of turning point for her in the movie and where she decides that she's no longer just going to accept this and she's going to take some matters into her own hands. Yeah. And it was no surprise when she revealed that she was the one who turned Patrick in. We're like, of course you were. Who else was about to do it?

[00:37:03] She burned that postcard and we were like, no, Patrick is fucked. Yeah. I mean, sending the postcard though, that's really cheeky. Like, I'm like, come on, you're so religious, like, like rubbing it in Marion's nose now. Like, come on. Yeah. She's just sitting there ovulating, just like nothing to do about it, not getting her babies and receiving a postcard from Venice. I mean, I burn it too. Yeah. But it seems to not track with the character that she is later. Yeah.

[00:37:32] And I guess that's the idea is that in the moment they're all hurting each other. And that's a lot of the, another thing that we see in these sad queer stories is everyone's just causing each other pain and society is causing everyone pain. But. No, I know there's almost like a, there's almost like a fifth character in the book, if you like.

[00:37:55] So not Tom, not Patrick, not Marion or the lesbian friend, but the, that, um, the elephant in the room of that being the law at the time. And that being like the societal norm of the criminalization of homosexuality. It's sort of like they're in the background. It's that that's causing people pain. And we're seeing that obviously reflected in interpersonal relationships. And as you said, it looks like they are hurting each other.

[00:38:21] And in many ways they are, but there's also that sort of like societal norm that's, that is making this as bad as it was. Yeah. And the movie makes a point of showing us not only does Patrick go to prison, but we have to have a scene of him being like brutalized in prison as well. And just to really, really drive it home. Yeah. That was, that was a tough watch. That was, that was horrible.

[00:38:46] And the way that the scene was done, like the audio of it, it was the way when he was getting punched, it was just very, very uncomfortable scene. And I think that translated as to the grotesqueness of what was happening in prison to Patrick. I think as well, like as much as the movie is flawed and it doesn't instill queer joy, I think obviously there are like some historical references throughout the book, throughout the movie even.

[00:39:12] And as I mentioned, that is probably the main one being criminalization of homosexuality. The movie is set in 1957 and 58. And it wasn't until 1967 that homosexuality was decriminalized in England and Wales. And it wasn't until 1980 for Scotland. So this is set before we have any sort of queer emancipation laws happening in the UK.

[00:39:40] And I think that you can see that in the script in the movie because they say things like, I need to get married and have a child for protection. I need to do it to start a family. Because of course, cheating on your wife when you are maybe not straight and having kids with her is the only way you can start a family in 1957. And saying things like, don't break the rules. We must not break the rules. That's always a reference to the law and that being the criminalization of homosexuality.

[00:40:08] And I mentioned it already, but even there is a segment where the friend says, homosexuality, you need to be careful what you say. So we see the chilling effect there of the laws. And we see that reflected in people's behaviors and people's attitudes. So not only is it illegal to be gay, but we can't even speak about this because it is just so bad. Also, one of the most gutting scenes in the film takes place in the 90s when Marion and Tom are out, they're out of the shops and they see Patrick's nurse,

[00:40:37] who is a guy called Nigel. And shout out to my gay friend, Nigel, and all the gay Nigels in the UK. And he is with his boyfriend and they have a wee kiss in the shop. And this compared to the 1950s flashbacks is such an unfathomable sight for Tom. And he breaks down in the car, obviously thinking like, this is what he missed out on. And this is what he could have had.

[00:41:06] But again, it strikes me in the 1990s compared to the 50s. Yes, so much had changed for the community and so much had progressed. But there was still a long way to go even from there. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I would say it's not until the 2000s that we actually start seeing multiple equality and human rights legislation coming into the betterment of queer people.

[00:41:35] So the 90s was far from perfect as well. Yet in terms of when it's set, I mean, I had to remind myself that this is all before the Human Rights Act, before the Equality Act, before the Civil Partnership Act, before equal adoption legislation, equal marriage. There has just been a raft of inclusive LGBT legislation since the 2000s that at the moment is pretty much on pause, unfortunately.

[00:42:02] But it's just wild to think that none of that would have been there throughout any of the time period of the movie. And it made me, as a queer person myself and as working in a policy space for LGBT people, it just made me so thankful to all the previous campaigners and people who have really came forward and been the driving force for this change. Because it's very clearly, as the movie shows, not been easy.

[00:42:30] And it's not a small feat to have to change not only the law, but societal opinions and behaviours. So yeah, I'm just very grateful that I live in the Scotland today that has the Human Rights Act and the Equality Act and other legal protections that unfortunately weren't available to queer people in this time period. And unfortunately, we see characters being victimised by society and victimised by the law,

[00:42:56] but we don't see anyone who is kind of pushing back, really. We don't see people kind of stepping up and saying, actually, this is wrong in any kind of public way, in the film anyway. Yeah, and actually to the opposite. The police who are meant to protect the citizens, the police engage in police brutality when they catch Patrick getting intimate with another man, and they actually beat that man on the ground.

[00:43:24] And there's the scene when Patrick is brought into the police station, and there's an attitude of one of the desk officers saying, we've rounded up another one. And I thought, God, how undignified? Rounding up as if it's cattle, as if it's animals that you're herding together, and we've caught another one, as if... Really, I think that really showed how criminal homosexuality was, and how homosexuals were viewed as criminals, and less than a necessary evil that we had to get out.

[00:43:54] Yeah, crazy. So you mentioned that in terms of movement that's happening today, that everything is on pause. Can you talk a bit more about that and what is happening, especially in Scotland and throughout the UK, in the community now? Yeah, of course. So a large part of our work right now is focusing on ending conversion practices, and there was actually a nod to conversion practices in the movie.

[00:44:23] Conversion practices, otherwise known as conversion therapy, are practices that seek to change or suppress a person's sexual orientation or gender identity. So in the movie, this manifests when Patrick is in prison, and he said that a psychiatrist very generously offered to help him change. That was a reference to conversion therapy, to convert him to being straight. But unfortunately, conversion practices still take place in the UK,

[00:44:52] and whilst many forms of conversion practices are illegal, such as serious violence, physical violence, sexual violence, there are many forms of conversion practices that are not illegal in Scotland and the UK. And part of our work has been pushing the Scottish Government to introduce legislation to not only ban conversion practices, but end conversion practices in their entirety.

[00:45:19] And what that involves is legal ban, a legal prohibition in legislation, but also a package of non-legislative support measures to support survivors and raise public awareness of this issue. The Scottish Government has developed a consultation on this last year, so legislation for conversion practices at the moment is on pause, it has been delayed, and whilst we're yet to see a bill, we continue to push the Scottish Government to introduce that.

[00:45:48] Because the longer it takes for legislation to happen, the more trans people can be harmed by conversion practices, and more LGBT people can face lifelong harm and health implications because of this. So that's one area of work that I wanted to discuss today that I noticed from the movie, but also work that seems to have stalled at the moment, absent from the movie, is the work on trans healthcare in Scotland.

[00:46:14] And not just trans healthcare, but just any sort of trans issues at all, seem to be unfortunately very controversial and very difficult to navigate for politicians. I don't know why, but that seems to be the case. Gender recognition reform was something that the Scottish Parliament unanimously passed previously in 2022. But since then, that legislation at the time was blocked by the UK Conservative Government.

[00:46:43] And since Labour coming into power in the UK and forming the new government, that block has not been lifted. That ban is still in place for the legislation to go ahead. And so we're kind of in almost like no man's land with the legislation. It's on pause, but nobody knows where it's going. And it's down to political decisions that are made at government level. And again, that's something that we are navigating how to best take that forward

[00:47:11] and ensure that legislation is introduced in future to simplify the gender recognition process for trans people. Because at the moment, it's invasive and it can be much better simplified. But in addition to that, the issue of trans healthcare and the waiting times that we see for trans people are not getting any better. If anything, they're getting longer, they're getting worse.

[00:47:35] For trans and non-binary people to receive their first gender identity appointment at a gender identity clinic in Scotland. And we are trying to do work and pushing for change, systemic change to that, to the operation, the service design and delivery of trans healthcare in Scotland. But that, again, is proving to be a very long process. Yeah.

[00:48:00] And there's various other aspects of LGBT policy at the moment that just don't seem to be progressing in the way or indeed at the speed that we would like to see them at. Amazing. It sounds like you're really in the fight right now. And it's a frustrating one at the moment. Is there anything that our listeners and people who find you via podcast on and via this episode can do to support you and to support these causes and to raise awareness?

[00:48:30] Absolutely. Absolutely. We at the Equality Network try to be pretty active on social media, where we post all of our updates and try to explain what is happening in relation to law and policy for LGBT people in Scotland and sometimes the UK as well. Yeah, I would recommend giving us a follow on social media and engaging with our materials on there. But, of course, if the listeners were in a position to donate as well, then we also have a donate platform on our website.

[00:49:00] Our website is equality-network.org forward slash support dash us. And there would be a donation link there that people can follow. Oh, that's a very good transition because at Podcast Thon, if you go to podcastthon.org, you can find us and you can find Equality Network. And on our charity page, you can find a link to their donation page as well.

[00:49:31] And if you follow us on Instagram, we follow them as well. So they're very easy to find. Absolutely. Yeah. And there's lots of ways that we put out support from time to time, whether it be petitions or calls to action. You just need to keep an eye out for it on our social media channels and on our website. Yeah. So, and what is your involvement in Pride across Scotland? So the Equality Network has been involved in many Prides in Scotland for many years now.

[00:49:59] The way that Pride works is that each city or town has their own Pride board and manages Pride in their own way. So our Community Engagement and Development Officer has a role to play there in supporting Prides and supporting grassroots organisations that want to develop into a local Pride as well. And we take part and have taken part in the past in the large Prides like Glasgow and Edinburgh,

[00:50:26] but we also do work with the smaller ones that are relatively new to Scotland, including Stirling Pride and also Orkney Pride, Shetland Pride and Oban Pride. So some of the more rural locations in the Highlands and Islands. And our role differs between Prides and what we do. For example, in the past, we've previously played quite a large role at the beginning of the Edinburgh Pride,

[00:50:52] separate from the main stage acts in entertainment, but we organise a speech, a discussion with politicians. And last year, we had the First Minister, John Swinney, on our big bus that we had, a big double-decker bus outside Parliament giving a speech on LGBT equality and a commitment to that, as well as various other politicians.

[00:51:17] As an organisation, we are thinking at the moment about how we can support some of the smaller ones in a better way that maybe don't need as much assistance from us and choosing quite strategically what Prides that we can be present at in terms of staff capacity and stuff like that. But yeah, we're always kicking about at Pride season. It's always a very busy time. Well, look, you've got a lot of work to do, so I'm going to let you get back to it.

[00:51:44] Christopher, thank you so much for watching this movie with us and talking about it and talking about Equality Network with us. Once again, we are going to put all of this information on social media, but if you don't use social media, you can find information about Podcast Thon and loads of participating podcasts and participating charities, including Equality Network,

[00:52:11] if you go to podcastthon.org. Before we go, did you give this movie an award? I did. Yay! Let's hear it. I did. So it was a choice of two, and I will tell you what they both are and then what one I chose. The first one was Best Hair because I was loving Harry Styles' hair all through the movie. Oh my God, it's so funny that you said that because I hated Marion's 50s and 90s.

[00:52:41] I hated Marion's hair. Yeah, her hair wasn't great. Best Hair, Harry Styles' hair just looked really lovely. I think that hair Styles came back into fashion, so maybe that's why. But also Best Cottage because I thought the cottage that they had their honeymoon at was just so idyllic and it just looked so peaceful and so beautiful up until Patrick arrived. And poor Marion's whole world was rocked.

[00:53:10] But until that moment, yeah. And I loved The Green Door, so for me, the real winner was Best Cottage. Yeah. Another stellar character in this film. Mine is a worst. So I gave this movie worst place for a marriage proposal because we didn't talk about this, but when Tom asks Marion to marry him for reasons I will never understand,

[00:53:39] he takes her to Patrick's flat because he has a key and Patrick's away into Patrick's bedroom where they have been having their passionate love affair for several many months and they just sit down on the bed and he asks her to be his wife. I don't know if he had a different plan for how that was going to go, but that's what happens. And it's horrible.

[00:54:09] It's a terrible place to propose to your girlfriend where you've been sleeping with your boyfriend. Absolutely. That should have been a red flag to Marion from the get-go. She should have packed her bag and left at that point, but different time and all that. The best thing is also where she's like, oh, I didn't think you liked me. Yeah. You're so close, Marion. You're so close. The writing was on the wall with the drawn portrait of Tom and she didn't even get that. No. Poor girl.

[00:54:40] But at the end, she leaves in a taxi and she looks very free and she looks like a burden has been lifted. She looks very, she looks lighter. She puts her hand out the taxi window into the air and you can tell that there's been a weight lifted off her as well, which I was happy to see that at the end for her too. In fact, she looks in her outfit, she looks a bit like her old lesbian friend from the school. From the 1950s. You're setting them up for a sequel. My Police Women. Oh, she's a teacher.

[00:55:10] Oh, my, um, my favorite teacher or something. And it's hard going back to get a lesbian friend all these years ago and finding out she had her own love affair. See, that would be a good movie. That would spark queer joy. If you could do like a handmaiden kind of style, like you thought this was going on, but this was going on. But actually, third part, this was going on. Yeah. Everyone's gay. Yeah, that's the outcome.

[00:55:42] And on that happy note, we are going to say goodbye. You can find us, Fetch the Smelling Salts, if you want to email us with more queer joy dramas that you found that you would like us to cover. Or with any other suggestions, you can email us at fetchsmellingsalts at gmail.com. And you can find us on our Instagram. We're always happy to have chats and Instagram messages. Okay. So, now we'll all say goodbye. Thank you so much for having me. It was lovely.

[00:56:12] Bye. Bye. Bye. It's all finished. This podcast is part of Podomity, the UK's podcast comedy network. Why not laugh at what else we've got? Visit Podomity.com.