Jew Talkin' To Me? with Louisa Clein

[00:00:00] Hello. Hello, how are you? All right, thank you. I feel like the last few times we've come on and done this pre-chat, we sort of started with a, hello stranger, oh my goodness, it's been ages, because we've been really quite rubbish about putting out episodes. So there are reasons for that, life just gets in the way of everything.

[00:00:18] I've had a complicated year, family-wise, all lovely now and fine now, but it has meant there's been a bit of a delay, but really what is more Jewish than delaying stuff to put your family first.

[00:00:31] That's right, and also don't forget when we started this entire project, it was during lockdown when people were a whole lot more available.

[00:00:38] And we had literally nothing else to do.

[00:00:40] So we do have a couple of episodes ready to put out, and they'll go out in the next couple of weeks, and we will be recording more episodes as and when we can.

[00:00:48] But I think for now, you're going to have to take us as you find us, and when you find us, but we will do our very best to keep things going as fluidly as possible,

[00:01:01] to bring you the very best in Jewish entertainment and humour through our lovely little project that we've been working on here.

[00:01:09] So with all of that excuse-making behind us, Rachel, what has been the most Jewish thing of your week, or six months?

[00:01:18] Generally, I think this is probably the most Jewish thing of my whole life.

[00:01:22] It was overhearing my daughter-in-law telling someone last weekend how my grandson prefers my food to everybody else's,

[00:01:32] and he eats my food like he doesn't eat anyone else's food.

[00:01:37] You know, he always finishes it up. He loves it.

[00:01:39] Oh, Nana's chicken soup, that's the best.

[00:01:41] And I'm very, very proud of that.

[00:01:43] If I achieve nothing else in my life, knowing that my grandson prefers my food to other people's is genuinely that was the highlight of my life.

[00:01:55] And are the doctors concerned about this lack of taste buds at his age?

[00:01:59] Yeah, hilarious.

[00:02:00] But seriously, he likes his other grandmother's food, just to be clear.

[00:02:04] And I'm sure that if she'd overheard a conversation, it would have been the same thing.

[00:02:10] Nakhos, the mega intense Jewish maternal pride, does not come close to hearing that your grandchild likes your food.

[00:02:17] I can't even tell you.

[00:02:18] I mean, look at my face now.

[00:02:20] You can see how happy I am.

[00:02:21] And this is why it's an audio podcast and not a recording podcast.

[00:02:24] So I'm the only one that has to.

[00:02:26] I'm taking one for the team, guys.

[00:02:28] I'm looking at her face.

[00:02:30] What about you?

[00:02:31] What's the most Jewish thing that happened to you recently?

[00:02:33] Well, I'm struggling to think of this because not much Jewish has happened, which having gone through the entirety of the high holy days and dealing with whether or not to go to shul for this, shul for that.

[00:02:44] Not a great deal has happened actually Jewish, Jewishly.

[00:02:48] Just today, you did send me what can only be described as unsolicited grandchild pics.

[00:02:56] Not only were they unsolicited, you asked if I wanted to and I kind of made it very clear that I was indifferent to your Nakhos.

[00:03:05] You can't be indifferent when you see the pictures of him.

[00:03:07] Who could be indifferent to that little punim?

[00:03:10] I mean, if that's what you want to call him, that is fine.

[00:03:13] But then you sent me these pictures, which admittedly were fine.

[00:03:17] They were cute.

[00:03:18] But you said you were just going to forward the message and the photos as you had sent them elsewhere.

[00:03:23] And the last sentence of the message that came with these photos was, anyway, here are some gorgeous pics.

[00:03:30] Please don't share them outside this group.

[00:03:33] So not only did you send me unsolicited grandchild pics, you also sent me photos that were not meant to leave the original group.

[00:03:41] I mean, that was my message in the group.

[00:03:43] I wanted the other people not to forward the picture.

[00:03:45] I can't know that for certain.

[00:03:46] It just says forwarded.

[00:03:47] It doesn't say who it's.

[00:03:49] So I don't know.

[00:03:50] I have to take your word for it.

[00:03:51] And that doesn't feel like something I'm going to do.

[00:03:53] The other Jewish thing, we mentioned about Nakhos before.

[00:03:58] Is Nakhos only a maternal thing?

[00:04:00] No, I think, you know, it can be a paternal thing, but it's experienced.

[00:04:04] It doesn't have to just be for your child, does it?

[00:04:07] And the reason I'm asking is because I saw a bit of news today and also recently about one of our former guests.

[00:04:13] And I felt genuine pride and Nakhos.

[00:04:17] And, you know, so we had recently one of the episodes with the wonderful Andy Nyman.

[00:04:23] And I'll remind you, it wasn't just one episode.

[00:04:25] It could have been three had I have not had we have not messed up the recording or I slept in.

[00:04:31] So he's been doing amazing work lately.

[00:04:34] He just finished in Hello, Dolly in the West End with Imelda Staunton.

[00:04:37] But then he's off into the West End again to do something.

[00:04:40] He's doing the producers, I think, at the Menier Chocolate Factory.

[00:04:43] He's going to play Max Bialystok.

[00:04:45] And then I saw a photo just today of him in the new Wicked movie.

[00:04:50] And I hadn't realized that he's playing a part in that.

[00:04:54] And somehow this I think must be the Jewish Nakhos thing.

[00:04:56] I now feel that I'm part of that movie.

[00:04:59] I'm like, oh, I'm one degree of separation or one degree of can't eat bacon from the Wicked movie.

[00:05:06] Also, another of our previous guests, Kim Ismay, was in the West End production of Wicked.

[00:05:11] So clearly there's something about that show that we feel particularly connected to.

[00:05:16] Outreach is unlimited.

[00:05:18] Thank you very much.

[00:05:19] It's also very clear to see why you were not in the Wicked movie.

[00:05:23] Other guests of ours actually have been doing brilliant things in this time.

[00:05:27] We'll probably announce a few different bits in these chats because it's nice to give the Nakhos a wider spread.

[00:05:33] I know that Paul Mendelsohn and Vivian Goldman have had books out.

[00:05:38] Estee Stimler has got two shows connected to the Tzitzit Jewish Fringe Festival in London.

[00:05:43] And Steve Jameson, who plays the character Saul Bernstein, is going on tour.

[00:05:47] So it looks like everybody's super successful.

[00:05:50] Well, they're welcome.

[00:05:53] Let's talk about today's episode.

[00:05:56] Who have we got on and how can we help further their career?

[00:06:00] We've got Louisa Klein, actress and brilliant human.

[00:06:04] And we had an amazing chat with her.

[00:06:07] It's a slightly different tone, I think, to some of our previous episodes.

[00:06:11] Talking about her experiences growing up as a second generation person.

[00:06:15] Her mum was a Holocaust survivor.

[00:06:18] And outside of the podcast, I've had quite a lot of chats with her about coming from a family of survivors.

[00:06:24] Is that a thing to say?

[00:06:25] I don't know.

[00:06:26] I mean, didn't we all come from a family of survivors?

[00:06:28] Like the fact we're here tells you that someone before us survived something.

[00:06:32] Yeah, fair enough.

[00:06:33] Also relating quite strongly to the current situation for Jews around the world and in Israel.

[00:06:40] But actually, when you talk about Nachas, my favourite aspect of our entire chat with Louisa is how much she enjoyed us and our puns.

[00:06:48] She did have a lovely time on the show.

[00:06:50] I think for us, we're always really delighted to have the conversation.

[00:06:53] And we're very aware that people have a limited amount of time to give us.

[00:06:57] And then every so often, you're chatting to someone and that time just flies by and they go over their deadline.

[00:07:04] And, you know, we have often had chats like that where the people have been so entertained by the entire process that it's all been a lot of fun.

[00:07:12] And I think this was one of those episodes.

[00:07:14] She's an absolute delight.

[00:07:15] And I think you're going to really enjoy it.

[00:07:18] So sit back.

[00:07:19] Have a cup of chicken soup.

[00:07:20] But not Rachael's.

[00:07:21] Make your own.

[00:07:21] My grandson ate all mine.

[00:07:23] Enjoy.

[00:07:29] Hello, I'm Philip Simon.

[00:07:31] And I'm Rachel Krieger.

[00:07:32] We are two Jewish comedians.

[00:07:34] I'm Orthodox, so the soap opera people associate me with is schtissel.

[00:07:39] And I'm Reform, so the soap opera people associate me with is literally any council meeting at my shul.

[00:07:45] This show is the audio equivalent of Life at a Small Village.

[00:07:47] Everyone's related to each other.

[00:07:49] There are always secrets being revealed.

[00:07:51] And you know that everyone's under the influence of a big farmer.

[00:07:54] In each episode, we chat to our favourite Jews about their lives and experiences growing up and how much Jewishness plays a part.

[00:08:01] Are they giving tzedakah or Charity Dingle?

[00:08:03] Welcome to Jew Talking to Me.

[00:08:08] That was so good.

[00:08:10] That was so good.

[00:08:12] I loved it.

[00:08:13] No one's ever even reacted to that bit.

[00:08:15] Like, I'm so happy.

[00:08:16] That was so good, honestly.

[00:08:18] Oh, I get that bit.

[00:08:19] Oh, I got that bit.

[00:08:20] No, sorry.

[00:08:21] Carry on.

[00:08:22] I shan't interrupt again, I promise.

[00:08:23] That's fine.

[00:08:23] Okay.

[00:08:24] Let's introduce our guest.

[00:08:25] She's an actress who starred in shows including Emmerdale, Judge John Deed and Casualty.

[00:08:29] And she's the winner of the Best Bad Girl at Inside Soap Awards in 2019.

[00:08:34] It's Louisa Klein.

[00:08:36] Hello.

[00:08:36] Hello.

[00:08:37] Thank you so much for having me on this.

[00:08:39] You are very welcome.

[00:08:40] Regular listeners to the podcast will know we always like to find out how our guests self-define as Jews.

[00:08:45] So you know that Rachel's Orthodox and I'm Reform.

[00:08:48] But what kind of Jew are you?

[00:08:50] It's a really good question because I spent a lot of my childhood in a very non-Jewish upbringing.

[00:08:57] So I've always said that I never really knew what I was.

[00:09:01] I just always knew what I wasn't.

[00:09:03] My mother is a Holocaust survivor in that she survived the Holocaust as a hidden child, having been given away in Amsterdam.

[00:09:13] So for me, we grew up not in London.

[00:09:16] We grew up down on the south coast in Dorset and very much the only Jew in the village.

[00:09:23] We were, as a family, referred to as the Jews.

[00:09:27] And so for me, my Jewish identity has always been slightly confused.

[00:09:35] And it's always been certainly sort of up until I moved to London in my 20s, actually my late teens.

[00:09:41] Before that, my Jewish identity was minimal.

[00:09:46] But then when I moved to London and I went straight to drama school, I had the most extraordinary Israeli teacher who I immediately had a connection with.

[00:09:56] And amongst a few other people that came into my world when I was in my, when I turned 18, 19 and I was in London.

[00:10:03] And it was at that point that it became a choice for me to discover more about my Jewishness.

[00:10:09] So for me now, as a mum of three living in northwest London, I would call myself a Reform Jew.

[00:10:17] We go to a Reform shul and my Jewish identity and my Jewishness is a huge part of my life.

[00:10:23] But it came later.

[00:10:25] How did your family feel when you sort of started to reconnect with your roots like that?

[00:10:30] I think they've really loved it.

[00:10:31] My dad, who grew up in a very conventional Jewish family in South London, but post-war.

[00:10:39] So, you know, a sort of different identity as a Jew post-Holocaust and in South London.

[00:10:48] He, I think he was really happy when I married a nice Jewish boy and brought, bringing my children up with a strong Jewish education.

[00:10:59] He's loved it.

[00:11:00] For my mum, it's probably more complicated.

[00:11:03] She didn't really have much of a Jewish upbringing after the war.

[00:11:07] And so she, she sees it as a lovely thing with the food and the meals and the family and the community.

[00:11:14] But I think she probably sees it from the outside.

[00:11:19] Wow. Challenging.

[00:11:20] I suppose it is.

[00:11:22] You know, I have my, my in-laws and my husband's family grew up in northwest London.

[00:11:27] They, they were part of a majority in the, in their little world.

[00:11:32] When I say little world, I don't mean that in any way derogatory.

[00:11:35] I mean, in their beautiful community of, of northwest, northwest London Jewish community.

[00:11:40] So for them, their identity as being Jewish is just a given.

[00:11:44] It's not something remarkable, you know, but for, for my parents, it's much more, they've always been outsiders in every part of their world.

[00:11:52] And so, you know, I'm lucky.

[00:11:54] I see it as I'm very lucky in that I have the, the wonderful community and social life through my husband's family and his friends and his upbringing.

[00:12:04] And I also have a broader sense of, of being Jewish through my foreign family, my, my feeling of it being a choice as opposed to it having been imposed upon me as a child.

[00:12:18] I found it really interesting because I always thought that if you're Jewish in Israel, it's the equivalent of being Christian in the UK where you just get the festivals off work anyway.

[00:12:28] And you don't really have to try.

[00:12:29] Whereas in the UK, if you want to be Jewish, you've got to decide, do I take Rosh Hashanah off?

[00:12:34] Do I take Yom Kippur off?

[00:12:35] But what you said about your husband growing up in Northwest London, therefore being part of this community already, that was my experience as well.

[00:12:43] Yeah.

[00:12:44] And I hadn't really thought of it as people who come from a significantly more secular background into that world would have looked at it in those terms.

[00:12:53] It's always been, I've always loved it.

[00:12:56] And I, it was part of what I loved about sort of coming into his world of, you know, he grew up with lots of Jewish friends.

[00:13:03] He went to Hader every week and he had a big bar mitzvah.

[00:13:08] And, you know, there was this question when we got married of sort of, would we have a big Jewish wedding?

[00:13:13] And it was sort of almost inconceivable for me how my parents would, would, would fit in or work in a big Jewish wedding environment.

[00:13:25] And they sort of couldn't quite believe it with the dancing and the, you know, the people and the, you know, there's, there's, there's the, the, the, the, the rabbi that we had to go and talk to in the Chazan.

[00:13:36] And, you know, cause they'd never had anything like this.

[00:13:39] I only, I, I only worked it out quite recently that my parents were married in September and my sister was born in March and it took me a little while, but I was like, oh, okay.

[00:13:49] So they have a big, exactly.

[00:13:51] You see, it took you a moment.

[00:13:53] Things happen quicker back then.

[00:13:55] Exactly.

[00:13:56] Yeah, exactly.

[00:13:57] But, you know, so, so, you know, the whole Jewish celebration of being Jewish, I suppose.

[00:14:03] And all the positive sides of being Jewish and it not being something you hid, I've embraced in my new sort of post-married world.

[00:14:13] And it's something that I've become a lot more aware of was lacking in my, in my childhood because we, we hid, we, we, you know, my mum was adamant that we were not to be different.

[00:14:25] We, we don't tell people you're Jewish.

[00:14:27] Obviously, you know, my surname is Klein.

[00:14:30] Usually I have really curly hair.

[00:14:32] Just had it done and blow dried.

[00:14:33] But usually it's really curly.

[00:14:35] And, you know, I have a very, very foreign Jewish mother.

[00:14:41] And in an area that was full of sort of very English people, we, we, we couldn't really hide that much, as much as we thought we were.

[00:14:51] It's interesting because my husband, one side of his family, he was the first one to marry in, like, out of all his cousins.

[00:14:58] Oh, wow.

[00:14:59] And we've got quite a proportion of non-Jewish relatives who are all our delightful family.

[00:15:06] And when we got married, we had a very traditional Orthodox wedding.

[00:15:10] Afterwards, quite a few of them told us that they'd been a bit nervous about it, what to expect.

[00:15:14] And they said it was just a wedding.

[00:15:16] It was just a party, wasn't it?

[00:15:17] I don't know if they thought it was going to be a bit more Fiddler on the Roofie and they were a bit, a bit let down.

[00:15:22] Yeah, exactly.

[00:15:24] They were hoping for...

[00:15:26] There was no contact first in.

[00:15:28] I was going to say, don't forget how the wedding of Fiddler on the Roof finishes.

[00:15:32] That's not something you want to be planning for.

[00:15:35] I'm pretty sure my dad did shake his fist and say tradition, but that's an ongoing thing.

[00:15:40] But also because, you know, a lot of his cousins on that side, you know, they lived together and then some got married, some didn't get married.

[00:15:46] And when my son was born, our first son, he was, who listens to this podcast, so he'll be thrilled, I'm telling you the story.

[00:15:53] He was a bit early.

[00:15:54] And the next time we saw that side of the family, all those relatives went, oh, now we see why your wedding was like so soon after your engagement party.

[00:16:02] You know, like, but it was more because religious people don't have long engagements.

[00:16:06] We got, you know, we had, I think we were engaged between the engagement.

[00:16:10] The wedding was about three and a half months or something.

[00:16:12] Oh, wow.

[00:16:12] But yeah, there was a lot of kind of shock.

[00:16:15] Oh, I'm very into that as a thing.

[00:16:17] I think, you know, if you have a four year engagement, you've got four years of panicking and worrying and stressing.

[00:16:22] And if you're not that bothered, like unless you want very specific kind of catering hotel and whatever, we weren't bothered about anything like that.

[00:16:29] So, and we didn't have any choice in that.

[00:16:31] I mean, I remember for our wedding, I was plutsing about the chairs.

[00:16:35] I wanted a specific chair.

[00:16:37] I went completely bonkers, totally mishuggie about it, about this chair.

[00:16:41] Do you mean like Thrones, like Posh and Beck?

[00:16:43] No, no, no, no, exactly.

[00:16:45] Can you imagine?

[00:16:45] No, I wanted not the chairs that the venue provided.

[00:16:49] I wanted like Perspex chairs.

[00:16:52] Don't ask me why.

[00:16:53] It was a long time ago.

[00:16:55] But I really wanted these specific type of chairs.

[00:16:58] And I can pretty much guarantee that anyone who was at our wedding, if I was to ask them now about the chairs, like it wouldn't be the first thing they'd remember.

[00:17:07] But if you speak to the venue, they will be able to pinpoint the exact moment they started to hate Jews.

[00:17:13] Exactly.

[00:17:14] The schmurl that wanted those chairs.

[00:17:15] We were fine until the chairs.

[00:17:17] And that was too much.

[00:17:19] Until that woman with the chairs.

[00:17:20] Exactly.

[00:17:21] We haven't done a Jewish wedding since.

[00:17:23] Exactly.

[00:17:26] Louise, we'd love to hear what is the most Jewish thing that's happened to you recently.

[00:17:31] Okay, so a couple of weeks ago, I've been working on a sort of talk as such with a wonderful woman who is a therapist and also very similar to me as sort of second generation survivor.

[00:17:44] And we're working on a talk at the moment about trauma and intergenerational trauma and hope and post-traumatic growth and positive things as well as all the trauma bits.

[00:17:54] Anyway, we got together to talk about what we were going to do and everything.

[00:17:59] And we had this amazing big lunch.

[00:18:02] And it was absolutely delicious, glorious, amazing food.

[00:18:06] Anyway, we left and we carried on chatting and carried on chatting.

[00:18:10] And then we each had to travel back to our own homes.

[00:18:14] And we both separately sort of say goodbye.

[00:18:17] I said, oh, I'm so full, never eating again.

[00:18:19] Loved it.

[00:18:20] Bye-bye.

[00:18:20] Bye-bye.

[00:18:21] And then both of us went off and ate more.

[00:18:25] And we then sort of admitted to each other.

[00:18:27] It's like, oh, I had dinner.

[00:18:28] And she was like, so did I.

[00:18:30] I was like, I wasn't hungry, but I was nervous that I might get hungry later.

[00:18:34] And I need to eat.

[00:18:36] And I don't want to be hungry later, so I'm going to eat now, even though I was absolutely stuffed to the brim with the most delicious lunch.

[00:18:42] And we both were really laughing about this.

[00:18:45] It's sort of both are sort of like having spent the day talking about trauma and Holocausty things to suddenly sort of just like eat and eat and eat and eat and eat.

[00:18:54] So it's a sort of it's funny, but it's also quite like an inexplicable.

[00:18:58] I don't know, something Jewishy about this fear of I don't want to be hungry.

[00:19:03] So I'm just going to keep going on the food and keep eating and keep eating.

[00:19:07] So I thought that was quite a sort of recent Jewishy thing that's happened to me.

[00:19:12] Completely.

[00:19:13] I would like to know what you ate for that lunch, because you said it with so much gillee.

[00:19:17] It was so delicious.

[00:19:19] It was it was so you.

[00:19:22] We it was in we were in Portugal because she's got this amazing house in Portugal.

[00:19:26] So we were on the beach.

[00:19:27] It was January and it was so miserable in the UK.

[00:19:30] And I'd gone out for two days to visit her and we were sitting on the beach and it was bright sunshine.

[00:19:35] It was a completely blue sky and we had fresh fish and amazing salad.

[00:19:40] And I think we had chips.

[00:19:42] I think we had a glass of wine and we had all like the dips and it was just delicious.

[00:19:47] It was it was like the freshness of the fish on a beautiful, sunny January day.

[00:19:52] It was amazing.

[00:19:53] And then I think I sort of got some disgusting pizza at the airport, which I so didn't need and made me feel ill eating it.

[00:20:01] But I was so frightened I'd be hungry.

[00:20:03] I hate it.

[00:20:04] It's a food panic, isn't it?

[00:20:05] It's a food panic.

[00:20:07] It's a real food panic.

[00:20:09] I like the idea of connecting that meal to discussing the Holocaust because it's such a opposite kind of meal.

[00:20:16] For sure.

[00:20:17] But actually, there was an enormous amount of joy.

[00:20:21] And we talked a lot about sort of post-traumatic growth as opposed to post-traumatic stress.

[00:20:27] You know, I have a very passionate, strong feeling about Holocaust education, but also not being victims and actually taking what's happened in the past.

[00:20:39] And I, you know, my mum talks about her childhood and her experience during the war.

[00:20:43] And she actually talks about it with real positivity and real.

[00:20:47] She owns her memories and they might not be the real memories all the time, but she sort of has chosen to hold on to the positive ones.

[00:20:54] And, you know, there's no question that her parents, my grandparents were unbelievably damaged and traumatized by those years.

[00:21:04] But I also think that I can't remember who said this, but there's a wonderful phrase, which is, you know, it didn't start with us, but it can end with us.

[00:21:11] And I think as the next generations, as it goes forward, we have that possibility to learn from it and to take from it the tragedy, but also the positive growth.

[00:21:22] I don't know, I see these Holocaust survivors now and they're becoming fewer and fewer, but they are magical and they are some of the most inspiring, strong, beautiful people.

[00:21:34] They're not victims.

[00:21:35] They're owning the story they want to tell and they're sharing the story.

[00:21:39] And it's a more important role now because they are becoming fewer that they need to have their story heard and shared, but on their terms.

[00:21:49] Exactly, exactly.

[00:21:50] And I feel as the next generation that we have that responsibility.

[00:21:54] And also there comes a point when I want them to feel safe and secure in the knowledge that their stories won't go with them when they pass away.

[00:22:04] And that actually there are people that will continue to tell their stories and that almost they can pass the baton onto their children, their grandchildren,

[00:22:12] people around them that care about them and love them and sort of are inspired by them.

[00:22:17] That sounds like it was an amazing experience to have and not just the fish, obviously, which sounds like it's taken up a large amount of your emotional.

[00:22:29] Usually does.

[00:22:30] Food really does.

[00:22:31] So, yeah.

[00:22:32] So, if we think to a more modern approach to our feelings and emotion, how things are going, we like to check in with our guests and just ask, what's the matter, Bubbola?

[00:22:41] I mean, isn't there a Jewish joke, something about, you know, what's, is anything right?

[00:22:47] You know, something like that.

[00:22:49] Isn't that a bit like how we are, you know, rather than what's the matter, you know, tell me what's good.

[00:22:55] I mean, listen, I think it's unquestionably an incredibly difficult time for us at the moment, isn't it?

[00:23:01] I go through really different emotions and phases post-October 7.

[00:23:06] And I feel there's times quite aggressively confrontational to people.

[00:23:12] And there's other times that I go and hide and I can't, I can't sort of, I can't fight it.

[00:23:19] I feel unbelievably proud to be Jewish.

[00:23:22] And I feel sort of publicly, I, you know, post-Emmerdale, I got a social media following and I got a combination of really wonderful, you know, fans or people that really loved the show and loved my storyline and were incredibly kind to me.

[00:23:43] And then also people who sort of, my storyline was quite controversial.

[00:23:47] So, people who had an opinion on the storyline, shall we say.

[00:23:51] And I always felt after Emmerdale that I could use that social media following I'd acquired.

[00:23:57] You know, I could get some nice free jumpers or I could actually use it for something a bit more meaningful for me.

[00:24:04] You know, I'm not 20 years old and I'm not a sort of influencer that people are looking for.

[00:24:09] So, actually, as a middle-aged mum of three, what can I use that following for?

[00:24:15] And so I decided to be vocally Jewish and sort of come out as a Jew.

[00:24:19] And then post-October the 7th, it's been really hard.

[00:24:23] I mean, I've lost thousands and thousands of followers, which is fine.

[00:24:29] I'm not in it for the numbers, but it's extraordinary.

[00:24:33] I'm sure you both also have this, that there's sort of suddenly you become accessible to people, for people to throw things at you and to comment on stuff.

[00:24:42] And, you know, I accept that when I put up, it's not even political.

[00:24:47] I don't think it's even controversial talking about the hostages or talking about, you know, just the massacre beyond anyone's personal opinions on politics.

[00:24:56] I accept that I'm going to get comments back and I accept that I'm going to get people, whether it be sort of rather inarticulate watermelons or, you know, free Palestine or whether it's slightly more nuanced debate.

[00:25:10] Fine.

[00:25:10] But then I also get, you know, you get comments on pictures or on stories that you're putting up that have absolutely nothing to do with Israel.

[00:25:21] And so, you know, for example, recently a teacher of mine passed away from my drama school and incredibly influential, incredible, the principal of the school.

[00:25:31] He inspired generations of actors.

[00:25:33] He taught some of the most extraordinary actors in our country, in this country.

[00:25:38] And on that sort of little memorial for him, you know, I get this vicious, this is the face of a genocidal loving child killer.

[00:25:49] And, you know, and you're just a bit like, and I, you know, after a while, you're a bit like, enough already, like, just come off, you know, what do I need it for?

[00:25:57] What do I need it for?

[00:25:59] So that's sort of where I am.

[00:26:01] And then other times, you know, yeah, no, other times I sit there with my mug and David hanging out going, bring it on.

[00:26:08] You know, you want, you want to fight?

[00:26:10] I'll gladly fight back.

[00:26:12] I had a similar thing with somebody who, whatever I was posting, would then comment on my posts on whatever, whatever strand of social media would comment on every post,

[00:26:24] how many tweets or Instagram posts I'd done where I hadn't mentioned anything about Palestinian children or babies.

[00:26:32] You know, I haven't posted anything political.

[00:26:33] I'm not a political performer.

[00:26:35] You know, I've been posting about comedy or about theatre or about a nice piece of fish.

[00:26:39] And then...

[00:26:39] Exactly.

[00:26:40] No doubt if I put a picture of my fish up.

[00:26:43] I'd like it.

[00:26:43] But it's interesting because you go into this profession and there are obviously people who go into the entertainment industry because they're looking for sort of fame and celebrity and stuff.

[00:26:53] But I think most people, they're passionate about the work and they just want to do it properly.

[00:26:57] And if they can do it properly and pay their bills, that's okay.

[00:27:00] Like, that's the priority.

[00:27:02] Yeah.

[00:27:02] That's...

[00:27:03] You find yourself with this platform if you do okay.

[00:27:06] If you achieve that, you find yourself suddenly accessible, as you say, to lots of people.

[00:27:12] And I find that both sides of this complex situation feel that I'm not doing enough and what I am doing is wrong.

[00:27:20] And, you know, you can't please anybody.

[00:27:22] And I just have to sort of stop worrying about that and just do things the way that I need to do them, which is hard.

[00:27:29] But I do also feel that there is a responsibility that when you do have a platform, you know, occasionally I do feel like occasionally I have to post things if somebody gives me something for free or if, you know, a hairdo for, you know, whatever.

[00:27:43] You know, I've got to post it.

[00:27:45] And it feels so frivolous and superficial and utterly useless.

[00:27:48] And then you sort of want to post stuff that has a meaning.

[00:27:52] And actually, even if it changes one person's mind, if it makes one person, not even changes their mind, but makes them think, oh, I must read a bit more about that.

[00:28:01] Surely we spend so much time sort of saying how awful social media is and how dangerous and the troubles of social media.

[00:28:09] But I do believe that there is possibilities that we can use it for a positive dialogue and to be able to hold two sides and have a discussion about it.

[00:28:20] It just feels to me that social media isn't the place to have the debate because people have made up their minds or they are led by a headline, not the article.

[00:28:31] And you're never going to convince them one way or the other.

[00:28:35] As you said, when they hijack the conversation for something that wasn't about that and then it becomes a whataboutery of, you know, why haven't you mentioned this?

[00:28:43] It just gets really draining.

[00:28:47] And I've just I've stopped checking some of the social media platforms.

[00:28:51] I retweet the things about gigs.

[00:28:53] I mean, if I need to, I rarely use Twitter or X now.

[00:28:57] I don't know.

[00:28:58] But no, I rarely use it.

[00:29:00] So that probably is the one where I do put most of the stuff relating to hostages or because for me, I just want to get something out there.

[00:29:08] Yeah.

[00:29:09] Yeah.

[00:29:09] But it's you could put 20 tweets out in a day.

[00:29:12] That's fine.

[00:29:13] It feels that if you put more than three or four Instagram things out in a day, they get lost anyway.

[00:29:19] Yeah.

[00:29:19] So you're kind of balancing it out a bit.

[00:29:21] But I just don't have the headspace to be arguing with people who ultimately don't care because they'll find a new cause to argue about next week, week after.

[00:29:33] They don't have the facts.

[00:29:34] They've not been anywhere beyond their computer to find the information they're looking for.

[00:29:39] Yeah.

[00:29:39] And it's draining.

[00:29:41] It is draining.

[00:29:41] But when you say that, what worries me is that I then think, well, maybe I'm like that just the other way.

[00:29:47] And I, you know, maybe the algorithms on all my social medias are showing me only one side.

[00:29:53] And I worry that I'm, you know, I'm shouting only one side.

[00:29:59] And so then I do go and do some research and do some reading.

[00:30:02] And I do try and follow people from not just the Israel side.

[00:30:08] I've limited how often I check the news, but I check it in about five different places.

[00:30:15] So I see the same story from a few different angles.

[00:30:19] Yeah.

[00:30:20] And then I consider that.

[00:30:22] And then if I feel like I need to know more, then there are people that I'd go and ask those questions.

[00:30:27] Yeah.

[00:30:27] But even that is more than most people.

[00:30:29] Like people aren't checking the news.

[00:30:30] There was a debate on LBC a few days ago.

[00:30:33] I can't remember who was hosting it at the time.

[00:30:36] But the conversation was about where young people are getting their news from.

[00:30:41] And it was almost exclusively social media.

[00:30:44] They're getting it not from clicking into the articles and reading them, but just seeing the posts, the memes, whatever.

[00:30:52] And that's it.

[00:30:53] That's what they're retweeting and sharing.

[00:30:55] And I'm sure we are.

[00:30:56] We're in an echo chamber.

[00:30:58] I'm sure we're just seeing our side of things more than we are seeing other sides of things.

[00:31:03] Because I can't believe, from what I see, I can't believe how there can be a counter-argument to so much of it.

[00:31:11] In regards to, for example, the sexual violence in regards to the hostages.

[00:31:16] I can't see how there can be a denial of it.

[00:31:21] I watched 15 minutes of the 47-minute footage film.

[00:31:26] For me, that was enough.

[00:31:27] I didn't need to see more.

[00:31:28] I went to the Tunnels exhibition.

[00:31:32] And yet, for people to sort of put out any counter-argument to that, I just don't understand.

[00:31:40] I can't believe it.

[00:31:41] And so I find the whole sort of social media battle.

[00:31:45] It's confusing and it's complicated.

[00:31:48] It's difficult.

[00:31:48] Because on one way, it's the way we as people in our industry have a platform, have some form of, I hate the word influence, but some sort of way of talking to people.

[00:32:01] But in another way, you know, it is.

[00:32:03] It's problematic.

[00:32:05] It's anyone can write rubbish.

[00:32:07] Hard, though, it is to leave that subject behind because it's obviously one we all care about a lot.

[00:32:11] And we have talked about it outside of this recording before.

[00:32:17] We're going to change the subject very completely.

[00:32:20] Go for it.

[00:32:21] So we were very excited by the story of your beachside meal that you told us earlier.

[00:32:26] And we have a section that we like to call, Have You Eaten Yet?

[00:32:31] Because as a Jewish mother, that's my first priority and thought whenever I see anybody.

[00:32:37] But do you have any particular attachment to a certain Jewish food or a memory around an experience of eating with Jews?

[00:32:46] Tell us about you and your relationship with Jews and food.

[00:32:49] So I told you earlier, you know, as a child, we were brought up with very little Jewish education.

[00:32:54] We didn't celebrate any of the big festivals.

[00:32:57] We didn't really do Friday night dinners.

[00:33:00] We really didn't do anything like that.

[00:33:02] But one thing that we did do once a year was we would come up to London to relatives for Pesach.

[00:33:09] And so we would come and it was my favorite thing.

[00:33:14] We would come up to London and they lived in the suburb and they had a table that they'd put out that ran the whole length of the whole downstairs.

[00:33:23] And they had waifs and strays coming in and their girlfriends and their boyfriends of cousins.

[00:33:30] And part of the fun of it was that my parents would make, you could never do this now, but my parents would put the back seat down of the car and they'd pad it all out with duvets and sleeping bags.

[00:33:42] And my sister and I would like make a whole nest in the boot of the car.

[00:33:47] And we would drive to London and we would have this joyful, glorious Pesach dinner every year.

[00:33:55] And it was my one sort of Jewish annual experience.

[00:34:02] And it was complete with a sort of a washer wrapper and the sort of silver tray, all the silver trays being wheeled in.

[00:34:10] And, you know, it was an all different crockery and wobbly chairs and, you know, just everything that a big Passover meal should be.

[00:34:18] And I tell you, to this day, every year, Passover for me has to be as many people as you can fit around the table and non-Jewish people as well.

[00:34:29] Like come over, come and see how we do a really positive Jewish festival.

[00:34:34] And my mother-in-law is celiac.

[00:34:37] So actually Passover for her is a really good one.

[00:34:39] She loves Passover because she can eat everything.

[00:34:42] So, yeah, so for me, it's the Pesach table.

[00:34:47] It's the Pesach meal.

[00:34:48] I love it.

[00:34:48] I love it.

[00:34:49] I'm just thinking back to my Pesach table growing up, which was we also had loads of people coming to the Seder each year.

[00:34:57] And the table was laid.

[00:34:59] It was quite a long room that it was in, a mishmash of tables.

[00:35:04] If you took the tablecloth off, you would have seen one dining table, one table that we'd screwed the legs on once a year that had come in from the garage and a table tennis table.

[00:35:16] Oh, amazing.

[00:35:45] That's what we would say.

[00:36:15] Yeah, exactly.

[00:36:19] I would say, yeah.

[00:36:24] I would say, yeah.

[00:36:29] I would say, yeah.

[00:36:46] And the other one was when they tried to measure something and they got the measuring tape out and they said, oh, that's 47 Deans.

[00:36:55] And we're going to work out what she was talking about.

[00:36:58] What do you mean, Deans?

[00:36:59] It's either centimetres or inches.

[00:37:01] I mean, Deans.

[00:37:02] And it turns out Deans was the manufacturer of the tape measure and it just had its name.

[00:37:06] Oh my God, I love that.

[00:37:08] So lavender bread.

[00:37:11] I love that that's become something that is just...

[00:37:13] It's a family thing, isn't it?

[00:37:14] Oh, yeah.

[00:37:15] That is what family is all about.

[00:37:19] Mercilessly mocking that one mistake.

[00:37:21] Never letting you forget it.

[00:37:22] Never letting me forget.

[00:37:24] Brilliant.

[00:37:24] Did you then sleep in that car nest on the way home?

[00:37:28] Yes.

[00:37:29] Oh my God, it was so fun.

[00:37:30] And we'd like wrap ourselves up in the sleeping bags and like roll around the boot of...

[00:37:36] I think it was an old Toyota or something.

[00:37:38] We're talking like, you know, mid 80s, so nothing glamorous.

[00:37:43] Yeah, like rolling around in the back with like padded cushions.

[00:37:46] It was so exciting.

[00:37:48] It was dark and it felt like it was like miles away.

[00:37:52] And as a present, if you found the Afikomen, we'd get a book from the Muswell Hill Children's Bookshop,

[00:37:58] which if you know it, it is the most amazing children's bookshop.

[00:38:03] It has got the most beautiful, brilliant books in it.

[00:38:06] And we'd always get a new book.

[00:38:08] So it was always this excitement of what's our new book?

[00:38:10] What did we get?

[00:38:11] And we've still like some of them are proper family classics.

[00:38:14] And yeah, it was just exciting.

[00:38:16] It was magic.

[00:38:16] It was all the family.

[00:38:18] It was generations.

[00:38:19] I think you should let your parents find the Afikomen and then given them the highway code.

[00:38:26] And then they could have flipped the page on securing your child.

[00:38:31] Safety, exactly.

[00:38:32] I mean, can you imagine now?

[00:38:35] I do like the idea of you leaving the Seda in the boot of the car like that and then getting stopped by the police.

[00:38:40] Bundle men, yeah.

[00:38:41] That journey for you was more dangerous than the actual exodus from Egypt.

[00:38:47] That's so good, yeah.

[00:38:49] But just think of the arguments that kind of a journey could have led to, which brings us very nicely on to our next question to you, which is about Brogues.

[00:38:56] We like to think of it in terms of whether we say bagel or by-gal, incorrectly.

[00:39:01] I've always said bagel.

[00:39:04] See, we knew we liked you.

[00:39:05] But do you have any family feuds?

[00:39:07] I don't really have any.

[00:39:08] Not personal on my side of the family.

[00:39:11] My husband's grandmother was German refugee, loved the UK.

[00:39:18] She came over and the stories I hear about her and the Brogues.

[00:39:22] What's the plural of Brogues?

[00:39:25] Broggein?

[00:39:26] Broggein?

[00:39:28] Have you?

[00:39:29] I've only got to know.

[00:39:30] I don't know.

[00:39:31] Brogges, yeah.

[00:39:33] The stories that I hear are hysterical of sort of that she gave away a sofa that she didn't want anymore to her son-in-law's sister.

[00:39:44] Tenuous family, yeah.

[00:39:45] The sister never said thank you or never said thank you enough.

[00:39:50] And it was, I mean, you know, the sort of German matriarch.

[00:39:55] She didn't want to.

[00:39:57] She took the sofa, but she didn't say thank you for the sofa, you know.

[00:40:00] Went on for years, apparently.

[00:40:02] And it kept coming back.

[00:40:04] And it's now a sort of hilarious joke that we talk about a lot.

[00:40:08] And she's no longer alive.

[00:40:10] But my mother-in-law, her daughter, still talks about it, laughs about it.

[00:40:15] And then at the end, it's sort of, you know, after you finish laughing and you take the breath in and go, yeah, but she never did say thank you.

[00:40:21] So it's almost like an inherited Broggeus now.

[00:40:24] It's like a Broggeus that has gone through the generations.

[00:40:27] You know, I'm interested in inherited trauma.

[00:40:29] You know, we should do one about inherited Broggeus.

[00:40:32] I think it's like the next talk.

[00:40:34] The next talk.

[00:40:35] Yeah.

[00:40:36] So are you going to, oh, no, because it's your husband.

[00:40:38] So is he now going to have to, you know, may your mother in order live to 120.

[00:40:42] But is your husband going to have to inherit this Broggeus?

[00:40:44] Absolutely.

[00:40:45] Absolutely.

[00:40:46] But it will also, the Broggeus will get passed down to the child of the sister.

[00:40:51] So not only will there be a Broggeus to the aunt, it will be to the cousin as well, I reckon.

[00:40:55] I love a Broggeus that hangs on and on and on.

[00:40:58] And eventually no one will know where it started.

[00:41:01] No.

[00:41:01] But they'll still have this thing about you've got to say thank you because.

[00:41:05] You've got to say thank you.

[00:41:06] But you've got to say thank you more than once.

[00:41:09] Oh, yeah.

[00:41:10] And then, but then it's also, yeah, but it's also then it's like, ah, you don't need to say thank you.

[00:41:15] What did I want the sofa for?

[00:41:16] But then if you don't say thank you, she didn't say thank you.

[00:41:19] Right.

[00:41:20] And then if you say thank you too much, you'll be like, oh, she's going to say thank you again.

[00:41:23] Thank you. I mean, enough was the thank yous all the time.

[00:41:26] Like, I don't need the thanks. Take the sofa.

[00:41:29] Yeah, it's joyful. It's Jewish.

[00:41:34] So Jews are all connected in weird and wonderful ways.

[00:41:38] And in this bit, which we call Six Degrees of Can't Eat Bacon,

[00:41:42] we'd love you to tell us who is your most interesting Jewish connection.

[00:41:46] Well, I mean, I have the Jewish story, which is, I mean, I met my husband through,

[00:41:50] so 25 years ago when I just left drama school,

[00:41:54] I got a job on Judge John Deed.

[00:41:57] And there was an episode where I started to become a junior barrister.

[00:42:02] And I had absolutely no idea what barristers did.

[00:42:05] When I was filming that, I was also doing a play.

[00:42:07] And I was doing a play with a very unknown actor at the time,

[00:42:10] whose name was Benedict Cumberbatch.

[00:42:12] And Ben and I...

[00:42:14] What happened to him?

[00:42:14] Exactly.

[00:42:15] Never heard of him since.

[00:42:17] But Ben introduced, he said, I know someone who you should meet.

[00:42:20] You can shadow him.

[00:42:21] I think you'd get on really well.

[00:42:23] So he introduced me to an old university friend of his called Rob Rinder,

[00:42:27] who at the time was a criminal barrister.

[00:42:30] So Rob and I became very good friends.

[00:42:34] I shadowed him around when he was doing these big war crime tribunals

[00:42:38] and all this amazing stuff.

[00:42:40] And I kept him.

[00:42:41] I kept him as my sort of family, basically.

[00:42:45] And it was Rob that then introduced me to my husband.

[00:42:49] So Rob now is sort of my...

[00:42:52] I always call him my second husband.

[00:42:53] He's the other husband in my world, the other man in my life.

[00:42:57] And subsequently, the reason for my children and my whole world.

[00:43:02] So I'd say he's a pretty good Jewish connection there.

[00:43:04] And he's...

[00:43:05] I think we are possibly his fifth shiddah.

[00:43:08] Really?

[00:43:09] Wow.

[00:43:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:43:10] He makes good shiddahs.

[00:43:12] That puts him straight in line for heaven.

[00:43:14] That's it.

[00:43:15] I mean, and some.

[00:43:16] I mean, yeah.

[00:43:17] We need to make three.

[00:43:18] I can't believe Rob Rinder's ahead of me in the shiddah thing.

[00:43:20] Yeah, he's good.

[00:43:21] He's really good.

[00:43:22] He's made some shocking ones as well, I will say.

[00:43:25] But yeah, he's had some success.

[00:43:27] You know, if someone makes your shiddah,

[00:43:29] it's really important to thank them.

[00:43:31] I'm just saying like that's...

[00:43:33] There's a theme in this.

[00:43:35] There is.

[00:43:36] Because like, it's not considered complete.

[00:43:39] And so I know you've got kids and everything.

[00:43:41] So I hope you have shown your appreciation to Rob Rinder.

[00:43:44] I have.

[00:43:44] I mean, I think coming onto a podcast and in devoting an entire question to the subject

[00:43:50] counts as gratitude.

[00:43:52] That's...

[00:43:52] Exactly.

[00:43:53] This is pretty good.

[00:43:54] This is no secondhand sofa.

[00:43:56] I read a poem at his wedding.

[00:43:56] Yeah, exactly.

[00:43:57] I read a poem at his wedding.

[00:43:59] I, yeah.

[00:44:00] Was it quite a boring wedding?

[00:44:02] I'm just getting a bit of reading.

[00:44:04] Wait.

[00:44:04] Just let me know when it gets interesting.

[00:44:06] Oh, I like that.

[00:44:07] Yeah.

[00:44:07] I, you and I have a connection as well.

[00:44:09] That's not Jewish at all.

[00:44:11] Oh yeah.

[00:44:11] Tell me.

[00:44:12] But I realised recently when I was doing a bit of research for the podcast, Judge John

[00:44:16] Dee, big fan of the show.

[00:44:17] So I was in a number of plays with a co-star of yours who I think is the most wonderful

[00:44:24] man in the world.

[00:44:25] And I'm really hoping this isn't going to be one of those things where you're like, no,

[00:44:27] he was a that.

[00:44:28] But Simon Ward.

[00:44:30] Oh my God.

[00:44:31] I loved him.

[00:44:32] Oh, thank God.

[00:44:33] I adored Simon.

[00:44:35] I did a theatre tour when I was shortly at drama school with the Winslow boy with Edward

[00:44:39] Fox and Simon Ward.

[00:44:42] Yeah.

[00:44:42] And then we did a couple of rep plays at Theatre Royal Windsor.

[00:44:46] And he was the first, I guess, famous actor who ever treated me like an equal when I walked

[00:44:52] into that rehearsal room.

[00:44:53] And I just fell in love with him as a person, as a colleague.

[00:44:58] And, you know, I've been to, I've been on a couple of sets.

[00:45:01] I've been in a couple of rehearsal rooms.

[00:45:03] And there's always a bit of a hierarchy with the stars.

[00:45:07] And just with Simon, there wasn't.

[00:45:10] I love that you say that.

[00:45:11] It's so true.

[00:45:13] And that show used to bring in a lot of the older actors.

[00:45:17] You know, the sort of, yeah.

[00:45:20] Yeah, Donald Sindan you had.

[00:45:22] Exactly.

[00:45:22] We had Sir Donald.

[00:45:23] We had Chris Casenove, Simon.

[00:45:26] We had, I mean, yeah, one after the other.

[00:45:29] And I, fresh out of drama school, was completely in awe of them all and just sort of sat there

[00:45:34] quietly kind of going, oh, well.

[00:45:35] And you're right.

[00:45:35] Simon was an absolute dream.

[00:45:39] Generous and funny and joyful.

[00:45:42] And I adored the stuff I got to do with him.

[00:45:46] It was a real privilege.

[00:45:47] I love that you say that.

[00:45:51] So we know that being Jewish has had a profound effect on your life since growing up.

[00:45:57] So what about professionally?

[00:45:59] How has your Jewishness impacted on your work?

[00:46:02] In my early part of my career, you know, I'm sort of blonde hair, blue eyed.

[00:46:08] I don't look stereotypically Jewish.

[00:46:11] People were always a bit confused about my name and how to spell it and how to pronounce it.

[00:46:16] But that's about the sort of ethnically off the sort of middle road I was ever seen as.

[00:46:22] So, you know, for a good few years, I sort of went under the radar of the Jewish casting

[00:46:30] and of sort of being put as a Jewish actor.

[00:46:33] There was a part that I played in, I think it was 2003, that I really fought for.

[00:46:40] That was a Jewish part.

[00:46:41] And it was about the German invasion of the Channel Islands during the Second World War.

[00:46:45] And there was a character in it.

[00:46:47] It was called Island at War, the series.

[00:46:48] And it was a big drama that was big period drama that was being made.

[00:46:52] And there was this Jewish character in it.

[00:46:54] And I know they were seeing lots and lots of actresses not Jewish.

[00:46:58] And I remember going into the audition going, you have to cast somebody Jewish here.

[00:47:02] It's incredibly important.

[00:47:04] It's an incredibly important storyline.

[00:47:06] And it's, you know, and I really fought for it and I got it.

[00:47:10] And then I, again, and after that part, I went back to just sort of playing young English girls.

[00:47:16] And it's after Emmerdale, I was asked to go on the show Pilgrimage, where they bring people from different religions on a walk.

[00:47:26] And it's a bit of a reality TV show.

[00:47:27] And that was probably one of the first times that I came out as a Jew.

[00:47:32] And I remember doing the press launch for it.

[00:47:36] And after having spent sort of two weeks talking about being Jewish with the other people on the show and everything, we suddenly put it out there to the public and to the press.

[00:47:44] And I remember sitting in the screening room and having the microphone and everyone had to introduce themselves.

[00:47:51] And, you know, it's Monty Panassar, the cricketer, Shazia Merza, the comedian, Nick Hewer, Lawrence Llewellyn Bowen.

[00:47:58] I mean, it was a random bunch of people. And anyway, I remember sitting there going, hello, my name is Louisa Klein and I am Jewish.

[00:48:05] And it was the first time that I really came out.

[00:48:08] And it was really exposing and I felt incredibly vulnerable and sort of very like it was the first time I'd really said that about myself out loud.

[00:48:18] And then after that, it's become more and more part of my professional profile as well.

[00:48:24] I'm I again, I fought to to to be in the play that was put on at the royal court, Jews in their own words.

[00:48:32] I wanted to be a Jewish actress.

[00:48:35] You know, I look to people like Tracey Ann Oberman and I think they're extraordinary.

[00:48:39] I think she's amazing. And I think that she has created such a fantastic platform for stuff that matters.

[00:48:49] So, yeah. So so as I've got older, you know, I'm coming to terms with the fact that I'm no longer a 20 something young ingenue.

[00:48:58] So, you know, the Jewish mother is my next step.

[00:49:02] Can you say a little bit more about Jews in their own words?

[00:49:05] So this was the play that was put on at the royal court in as a reaction to a terrible mistake that that theatre made a long.

[00:49:18] It has a long standing.

[00:49:21] It had a long standing reputation of being a little bit anti-Semitic, putting on plays that could be seen as a little bit anti-Semitic and a little bit controversial.

[00:49:32] Well, not controversial, a little bit.

[00:49:36] Well, what did they use?

[00:49:38] They used the word unconscious bias, didn't they, in the latest in their latest mistake that they made, which was they had a play that a new writer was being put on there where the lead character was described as a money grabbing billionaire.

[00:49:53] They cast an actor who is a dear friend of mine and a brilliant actor called Arthur Darvill, who was in Doctor Who.

[00:50:02] And he was always known for the size of his nose as just as an actor, as a joke.

[00:50:07] You know, it was anyway.

[00:50:08] They named the character in this play Herschel Fink.

[00:50:12] And everybody was like, oh.

[00:50:14] And actually, funny enough, before I knew anything about the play, I remember sort of reading what Arthur Darvill will be playing Herschel Fink, thinking, oh, a Jewish play.

[00:50:22] Why didn't I get seen for that?

[00:50:24] So anyway, so the play had obviously gone through several reads and nobody had picked up on this rather unfortunate name of the character.

[00:50:36] Anyway, long story short, I know that Tracey Ann Oberman had been in talks with Vicky Featherstone, who's the artistic director of the Royal Court, for a while to put on a play about anti-Semitism on the left.

[00:50:47] So when this happened with Herschel Fink, it prompted Vicky to say, all right, let's do it now.

[00:50:55] So Tracey and Jonathan Friedland put together a verbatim piece of theatre.

[00:51:02] It was described by somebody as a theatrical inquiry, which I really like the idea of, of 12 voices, 12 interviewees.

[00:51:11] Some known people like Luciana Berger, Howard Jacobson, Dave Rich from CST.

[00:51:17] And then also some people, there was a doctor.

[00:51:21] There was a handyman.

[00:51:23] There was a, who else was there?

[00:51:26] There was the, what was her name, Hannah, the head of the Union of Jewish Students a while back.

[00:51:34] So it was all different people of different ages and different political sways and different experiences,

[00:51:42] but all talking about their personal experiences of anti-Semitism, particularly within the more left-leaning political world.

[00:51:52] Obviously, Luciana, I was, when it feels weird to say I was playing Luciana, you know, I was speaking Luciana's words as I was speaking Tracey-Anne's words.

[00:52:01] But Luciana had, gave this extraordinary interview about very specific moments in her, as in her time as a, as a politician, as an MP.

[00:52:12] And it's so horrific what that poor girl went through.

[00:52:16] And actually, unfortunately, the play at the Royal Court was seen predominantly by Jewish people.

[00:52:23] It was, it was mostly a Jewish audience.

[00:52:25] It was hilarious because Vicky Featherstone, who I adore, who directed the play, she couldn't believe that when the play was announced,

[00:52:34] the ticket sales immediately was like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

[00:52:37] She was like, I can't believe how quickly this is sold.

[00:52:40] And the company, who was entirely Jewish, just turned around and went, well, Jews book theatre.

[00:52:44] Of course, it's going to sell out.

[00:52:46] It's all the Jews are booking.

[00:52:47] They're like, oh, something about Jews will go.

[00:52:50] And so she was, she sort of, she also during rehearsals, she always said to her, she said,

[00:52:55] you know, at the end of the first week of rehearsal process,

[00:52:58] usually the company of actors will bring in, you know, a bottle of wine, a bottle of bubbles,

[00:53:04] or, you know, possibly something like a little cake or some celebration for the end of the first week of rehearsals.

[00:53:10] And then she said, I have never worked in a company of actors where the snacks are so consistently strong.

[00:53:18] And literally every day, if not every week, we would all be bringing in, you know, good quality,

[00:53:26] babka, rugelach, different types of challah.

[00:53:28] We would look, it was, it was a sort of, it was extraordinary, the amount of baked goods that came to the royal court in that sort of three week rehearsal process.

[00:53:37] It really was.

[00:53:38] But it was an extraordinary play.

[00:53:40] And it was an extraordinary process to be working in an entirely Jewish company,

[00:53:44] which I've never had before, where, you know, the jokes and the laughter and the joy of being amongst other Jews.

[00:53:52] And we were all of different political sways, levels, you know, it was all, we weren't all on the same page.

[00:54:02] I just directed a play by a former guest of ours on here, Esty Stimler, which Philip had a role in.

[00:54:10] And Esty said, we'll do a rehearsal at her house and she'll provide a light supper.

[00:54:16] So we said to everyone, I would like supper.

[00:54:18] And Philip actually messaged me and said, oh, should I eat something before I come?

[00:54:21] Anyway, I turned up there and I texted him and said, don't eat anything.

[00:54:24] Because she'd made soup with croutons.

[00:54:27] And then she'd made like about five different salads and fish.

[00:54:31] And there were filled bagels and all kinds of other stuff.

[00:54:34] And then there was cheesecake and fruit salad.

[00:54:37] It was like a three course meal.

[00:54:38] It was just a read through.

[00:54:39] It was a script read through and a three course meal.

[00:54:42] Unbelievable.

[00:54:43] Basically, it was a three hour rehearsal and two and a half hours of that was dinner.

[00:54:48] Perfect.

[00:54:49] I mean, the worst thing you can possibly say to a Jewish mother is I'm hungry.

[00:54:53] You know, so therefore the food is absolutely dominant, isn't it?

[00:55:00] I would challenge that.

[00:55:02] I think the best thing you say to a Jewish mother is I'm hungry.

[00:55:04] The worst thing is I'm still hungry.

[00:55:07] I'm still hungry.

[00:55:09] Because then they failed.

[00:55:11] They failed.

[00:55:11] That's so true.

[00:55:12] You're right.

[00:55:13] I had like a visceral reaction to that.

[00:55:16] Imagine what I'm saying.

[00:55:17] I'm still hungry.

[00:55:18] I'm still hungry.

[00:55:19] I think it's interesting what you were saying about the reason theatres sometimes need to

[00:55:23] backtrack on mistakes they've made and things don't get picked up in the rehearsal process.

[00:55:27] I did a play a few years ago, which was it was about a Jewish couple who lived next door

[00:55:33] to a non-Jewish couple.

[00:55:34] And there was a dispute about something between their houses, a light going on and the light

[00:55:39] comes on and that breaks Shabbat.

[00:55:41] So the Jewish family weren't happy about it.

[00:55:43] I played the non-Jewish neighbor.

[00:55:46] There was a non-Jewish actor who played the Jewish neighbor.

[00:55:51] And I sort of inserted myself in it as, if you need some help with any kind of Jewish knowledge,

[00:56:00] anything like that, please let me know.

[00:56:02] It was a new piece of writing.

[00:56:03] We were workshopping it.

[00:56:04] And I said, look, let me help them.

[00:56:06] And we did a rehearsed reading of it.

[00:56:09] And then it was transferring to another theatre.

[00:56:11] And I refused to be in it at that point because they hadn't taken on board anything I'd said.

[00:56:17] And none of the writing had become sensitive to the Jewish characters, like the reality

[00:56:24] of being Jewish.

[00:56:25] And it became clear that this was really the writer writing an autobiographical story about an incident

[00:56:36] that had genuinely happened with their neighbors.

[00:56:39] And they thought it's such a fascinating, it'll make such a good play.

[00:56:42] But rather than kind of learn from it and think about how they can make it,

[00:56:48] how they can make all the characters sympathetic,

[00:56:52] she wasn't listening to anything I said.

[00:56:55] So I just can't be part of this because I'm not prepared to say words.

[00:57:01] The character wasn't anti-Semitic openly.

[00:57:04] It wasn't that.

[00:57:05] But it's just you're not...

[00:57:05] It's all not authentic.

[00:57:07] It's all not dimensional.

[00:57:08] It's all not dimensional, yeah.

[00:57:08] It's all authentic, yes.

[00:57:09] This is one thing that I will always stand by with the Royal Court now,

[00:57:12] which is, you know, Vicky Featherstone, on the first day of getting the Jewish company together,

[00:57:18] she sort of said, I'm really sorry about the mistake we made.

[00:57:21] She said, there's one thing that I can promise you,

[00:57:24] which is that every single person that works in this building now knows what the blood libel is.

[00:57:30] Wow.

[00:57:31] And, you know, this is the Royal Court.

[00:57:34] This is a sort of as left-leaning as you get, really, in mainstream British theatre.

[00:57:39] This is where the majority of the people that work there are sort of 20-something, relatively woke.

[00:57:45] But, you know, it's a theatre that undertook serious anti-Semitism workshops and training.

[00:57:54] Anti-Semitism training.

[00:57:55] It's sort of difficult to say that, isn't it?

[00:57:57] You know, anti-Semitism training, yeah.

[00:58:00] It does feel like people are just doing a course on how to hate Jews.

[00:58:04] They need to find a better way to describe it, exactly.

[00:58:07] But regardless, you know, they owned the mistake they made, absolutely.

[00:58:14] Well, that's nearly all we've got time for.

[00:58:16] But how will our audience know what you're up to if you never call and you never write?

[00:58:20] Normally, we allocate 20 seconds for this.

[00:58:23] But for you, 30.

[00:58:25] Well, at the moment, I'm working on a lot of sort of Holocaust education stuff.

[00:58:30] After having taken part in a documentary a while back now called My Family, The Holocaust and Me,

[00:58:36] and I learned a lot more about my family history,

[00:58:38] I've been working on a podcast with the Holocaust Educational Trust charity

[00:58:42] about telling stories from the Holocaust.

[00:58:44] And we're telling them in a slightly different way.

[00:58:47] So at the moment, we're working on series one, talking to both survivors,

[00:58:53] to second generation, to third generation.

[00:58:55] We are hoping that we might be able to talk to descendants of perpetrators

[00:58:59] and also some people who aren't Jewish,

[00:59:01] who were involved in helping Jewish children that came to this country.

[00:59:08] So we're building a database of stories.

[00:59:12] I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier,

[00:59:14] about keeping these stories alive and telling.

[00:59:17] And I think that, you know, every Jewish person I meet has a story.

[00:59:21] And so this is just an opportunity to tell them.

[00:59:25] That sounds amazing.

[00:59:26] And if people promise to be nice to you, where can they find you on social media?

[00:59:30] So they can find me on Instagram at Louisa Klein and on X, Twitter, Twitter X,

[00:59:37] also at Louisa Klein.

[00:59:38] Well, I've absolutely loved this and will now always think of Louisa

[00:59:41] as a Jew who'll give you a lift in her car boot

[00:59:44] so long as you thank her at least 17 times.

[00:59:48] I love that.

[00:59:49] And as my grandfather used to say,

[00:59:51] I love seeing your smiling faces arrive

[00:59:53] and I love seeing your little tuchuses leave,

[00:59:56] which is a good thing as we've come to the end of this week's show.

[00:59:59] All that's left for us to do is to thank and thank again

[01:00:02] and thank again our brilliant guest Louisa Klein.

[01:00:05] Follow her on social media.

[01:00:06] Follow us on social media at Jew Talking Without the G.

[01:00:10] At Rach Krieger.

[01:00:11] At Phillips Comedy.

[01:00:12] Don't forget to subscribe, like and share the podcast

[01:00:15] with literally everyone you know.

[01:00:17] And join us next time on Jew Talking To Me.

[01:00:24] Jew Talking To Me was hosted by me, Philip Simon.

[01:00:27] And me, Rachel Krieger.

[01:00:28] It was produced by Russell Walken and judged by our mothers.

[01:00:32] Before we do carry on then,

[01:00:33] could we thank you for coming on the podcast?

[01:00:35] I'd hate for you to feel that you weren't welcome.

[01:00:37] I know.

[01:00:38] Welcome.

[01:00:38] I never said that.

[01:00:39] You know?

[01:00:40] Yeah.

[01:00:42] Enough.

[01:00:42] You don't need to thank me.

[01:00:43] It's fine.

[01:00:44] I know.

[01:00:45] From now on, we're going to thank you after every question.

[01:00:48] And I should thank you for thanking me.

[01:00:50] Thank you for that.

[01:00:52] Thanks.