All-Time Favourite Books: Hugh and Áine take us through their must-read list

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[00:00:32] Hello, I'm Will. And I'm Hugh. And this is Legitimate Likes, the podcast where we take a look at some of humanity's most popular fascinations. And we try to work out, are they really worthy of the hype? They may be likes, but are they legitimate likes? This week, welcome to Áine Hughes Book Club. Have you ever been in a book club? No, never. Never been asked. Really? You've never been asked. I like the way I've never been asked. Did I want some cocaine? God, the two things that keep eluding you. I mean, really, they could come together, couldn't they?

[00:00:59] Yeah. I mean, the way the newspapers go on, the book clubs of Dublin are probably full of people doing coke. That's true. People talk about the wine and cheese, but sure, it's only a skip and a half. Have you ever been offered cocaine? I thought you were going to ask a book club. No, I haven't. Oh, sorry. A man on the street tried to sell me some once in Lisbon. Well, he was trying to sell it to my husband, but they do that to everybody. They do that to everybody in Lisbon, so it's no great indication of... Is Lisbon a big coke place? Just like everywhere there's guys selling drugs on the street. Everywhere.

[00:01:29] Like the way you might be offered tickets outside a match, you know? I was at an AFL game recently in Australia. Yeah. In Perth. I was at the Fremantle Dockers. He made that up, surely. Against the Geelong Cats. Are they real names? Yeah, the Geelong Cats apparently are Ruby Rose's favourite team. Oh, from Orange is the New Black. I'm rewatching it at the moment, so that's why she came to mind. Okay. God. Remember when Ruby Rose appeared and like everyone in the world was like, wow.

[00:01:59] You know, man, woman, gay, straight. Everyone was just like... Like, wow. Wow. The only thing I would say is she's horrible in it. She's a really annoying character in it. I think they kind of did her dirty, didn't they? Yeah. Although I suppose she's... Most of her time is spent with Piper, who's the most annoying character in the whole show. So... Yeah. Unfortunately, whenever I do, you know, the MBT, the Myers-Briggs test, I have the same personality type as Piper. That's Piper. That's my cross to bear. Yeah. And Michael Scott.

[00:02:29] And Carrie Bradshaw. TV's three worst... Come on. And Phil Dunphy. Listen, three out of four. I think you're taking three of those. Yeah. That's pretty good. Anyway, Orange is the New Black. We're not here to talk about TV shows. No, no, no. So, for you, the listener, it's September. The new school year is upon you. For Hugh and I, we're still stuck in the lazy days of August. And Michael's on holidays. Will I read you a dispatch from his holiday I got this morning? Do. I had a driver yesterday. Yanis. 50s.

[00:02:59] Deeply tanned, gelled grey hair. Drove us for an hour. Played only the Bee Gees, Barry White and Chris Rhea and sang every song. He is my spirit animal. And I said, oh, ha, ha, ha, ha. Did you ride up front with him? And he said, yes, occasionally singing too. So that's what Michael's doing. And Will is... Will's in Edinburgh. Yeah. Will is very, very busy in Edinburgh. Unfortunately, by the time you listen to this, his show will have finished. But hopefully you went. Yes.

[00:03:25] But you can come see us live in Belfast on the 1st of November at the Cheerful and Earful Podcast Festival or the 8th of November in Dublin, hence Teeth. And if you go to the link in our bios, you can buy some tickets. They might all be gone by now. Might all be gone. We don't know. So the only two of us, it's a bit of a... I don't want to say a tough hang. That feels unfair to Hugh, but... That's very rude. Sorry. It's... You know, we don't have the zany energy of the other two. You know what I mean? No, but I think... I don't know. Who's the most zany?

[00:03:53] One to four in order of zaniness. Will. You, Will, me, Michael. What do you think Will's ahead of you? I think Michael's really zany. I think you're the least zany. Yeah, I think... Well, he's zany. Do you think Michael minds... Oh, sorry. He definitely minds. How much do you think Michael minds that he's gone to Greece this year when literally everybody in Ireland has gone to Greece? Like it's the year of Greece. I don't know a single person who hasn't gone to Greece this year.

[00:04:22] Well, you know, Michael, he will talk about like he has discovered this rare jewel of Europe. I do that too, though, about things like as if like, did you guys know the Mediterranean is actually really beautiful? Did you know that? Did you guys know? Yeah, but I'm sure he lived on it in a different way, which I'm sure we'll hear about when he comes back. I'm sure he did. Last night there was an eclipse. Yes, there sure was. I didn't think it was that exciting, Q. I really wanted to be amazed. Did you have cloudless skies? No, it got a bit dark. We were other than clouds. And I was too scared to look because I didn't have the eclipse glass and I didn't want

[00:04:51] to burn my retinas out. I kind of went outside, had a bit of a look. Yeah, I don't... What did you do? I was down in Kerry. So, in theory, a great place to see it. But I walked down to the beach and yeah, it was cloudy. So you couldn't see any of the sun. But it did get dark. What did you make of all the cues of people trying to buy eclipse glasses? Oh guys, like 20 euro, like come on. Yeah. Just do what I did. Don't look out your window and then go out and kind of go out the back garden where there's less sun and just admire it being dark.

[00:05:21] You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. I'm very... Because I read a terrifying article about how it burns your retinas but you don't feel it and like the damage may not reveal itself unto you for a period of time. See that's the thing. But it's even like, you know how... So if you try to look up at the sun, normally, you'll look away, you'll squint, you'll blink. Great face you! Thank you. With my hands up as well. But if you look at the sun with your sunglasses on, you're able to see the little circle. But that's so bad for you looking through your sunglasses, you know?

[00:05:51] It's so dangerous. That would never occur to me. Do you not know you're not meant to do that? I do, but... But now that you've said it to me, it's all I want to do is go stare at it. You know that I can't... I'm like drawn to it. You see, even if there are clouds, if you put sunglasses on, you can see the sun through the clouds. Yeah. It's crazy. I don't think that's like a big hot take. Crazy. Yeah. Have you read any books featuring eclipses? Is one of the Twilight books called Eclipse? I like that you think that would be my first. It is, I think, yeah.

[00:06:19] I bought those in New York in 2007 because everybody was talking about them and I read them during that holiday. They're terrible. Have you read them? Are they terrible? Yeah. They read about it. I thought, desperate. But you know when the Zeitgeist is so heaving with commentary and you're like, I gotta... I do think sometimes you deserve... You know when people give out but it's not like Lo-Fi and it's like, well have you ever watched it? Like, give it a go. Yeah. You know what I mean? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Then have a... Then criticize it. Have you read them? Absolutely right. No, I haven't.

[00:06:46] But so you have given them a go and you think they're shocking. Oh, terrible. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the setting is good I will say. You know, it's a Washington state. The idea is good but the... I mean, it's yeah. It's in the same vein as like Fifty Shades of Grey. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of... It's essentially fan fiction that happened to really... Like they've really bottled lightning. Somebody really bottled lightning with it and it just hit the zeitgeist. But we thought today maybe we could talk about something that Hugh, you and I like, which is...

[00:07:16] Not that the other two don't like it. It's just reading. Maybe we could talk the listeners through, I guess, our top three books. Our top three books at the moment. The top three cortex according to Hugh, according to Anya. I mean, that's... It's a huge question. You know? It is a huge question. But if somebody... You're stuck in a lift or somebody says, you know, what are your... What's your favorite book? You know, in the same way that we always say, my favorite movie is Ocean's Eleven. Yeah. It's not Citizen Kane. Is he talking about kind of a general? No, he's not a general.

[00:07:45] No, he's... He's a very rich man. Yeah. I don't... I don't know what that is. Okay. Or... Like, what's the other thing people always say? Casablanca. Casablanca's great. Casablanca's great. Yeah, but it's my favorite movie. It's not like, oh, it's a rainy day. Let's sit down and watch Casablanca. Like, you're lying. Yeah. And really what you do is if you have like a top 10 of movies, you're allowed like, put one of those movies in around five or six, you know? Because you have to, because otherwise you're going to sound like a moron. I do. I do like those movies.

[00:08:15] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. My guy. So I think in the same way, like you're like, I don't want to hear Jane Eyre. Okay. Is that unfair? Well, it's interesting because I was thinking about this and I was like, I know we said we won't necessarily do categories, but I was thinking like, if I was picking one of, you know, the quote unquote classics, what would I pick? Because I do love a classic. Yeah, but I... Okay. So your top three. I don't know if we're saying Desert Island. I guess, you know, just come to your head. You're in a lift with me. God, so things have gone really south. What's your...

[00:08:45] Okay, go on. Number three. What are you coming in with? Well, no, do you know what I was going to say was because there are a few books that I always have in mind when if I'm recommending books, if I know, if I figure out that someone is into books, I'm like, okay. Yeah. I respect you enough to recommend these books to you. But also I do have a list. This won't surprise you that I now keep an Excel sheet of the books I read every year, year by year. So I started in 2020. You are now the third of my friends that does this.

[00:09:15] Okay. And I thought the other two were like, I was, I didn't think I knew. So this is a thing, apparently. This is the thing. I mean, some people, I think you can just do it on Goodreads and things. Yeah. So in 2020, I started. You like to preserve the data on your own individual. I put in the name of the book, the name of the author, the date I finished the book and I give it a little rating out of five. Okay. Yeah. So I was going to look at any of the books I gave five stars.

[00:09:40] It doesn't necessarily mean it makes it into my top three, but I'm just going to have a little look at that as we move through, I suppose. You are kind of doing the, you know, I've been asked for three wishes. And my first wish is a thousand wishes. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I might. I mean, when you say top three, we mean top five, don't we? I haven't thought about a top five. No, top three, top three. We'll never be here all day. Okay. You start. You start. You start because you're going to, I want to hear what you're picking first.

[00:10:11] Okay. Give me a few honorable mentions then. No. Okay. I'm going to give you one that is absolutely right up there for me and isn't quite for everyone. Not in your top three though. It's definitely in my top five. Okay. Go top five. Go top five. And I'll wait. So this is a book which I don't think you've read and I think you would love it. The audio book is also written. Is it Terry Pratchett? It's not Terry Pratchett, nor is it Anthony Horowitz who you think is the same as Terry Pratchett.

[00:10:37] No, it's by a woman called Susanna Clarke and it is Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. I knew you were going to say this. You haven't read it. I just think it sounds, I think it sounds like kind of a knockoff Harry Potter. It is literally nothing like Harry Potter. Can I tell you what I think that sounds like? Yeah, go on. It sounds like it's about two alchemists. Okay. And are they like fighting in Victorian London or something? Okay.

[00:11:03] I mean, like, no, but like both, that's all wrong and yet it's kind of alright as well. Okay, what is it about? You love historical fiction, first of all. Do I? I think. Do you not? Maybe not. No, maybe not. I think if I read Wolf Hall. I've thought. You do love the 1800s though, I think. What? No. What do you mean I love the 1800s? As a setting for books. I think you do, don't you? Not really. Not really. Okay. I may have misjudged this.

[00:11:32] It's set in the 1800s, set during Napoleonic... Oh, I sound like such a loser. I only love historical fiction set in the 1800s. Oh. This, I guess, is alternative history. It's not really historical fiction at all. I do like alternative history, but only if it's about the Nazis. So the man in the high castle, okay? Yeah. And you like fantasy. This is basically set in Napoleonic times. And there are... Like, you're bringing such a bad attitude to this.

[00:12:02] There is nothing wrong with what I've said. This is reminding me of when we did the episode about chess. And you and Will, I have never seen two less enthusiastic people. Like, minutes before starting the recording. And then, of course, John McKenzie comes on the episode and charms you because he lived on a houseboat. I know, but he was... Yeah. Yeah. So you think... I was like, is he there? I think this book is... I think some of it is a bit Jane Austen-y. I think some of it is a bit Dickens-y.

[00:12:31] I think some of it is a bit, like, Alan Bennett, kind of. It's alternative history. The concept is there used to be magicians in England and in the world, presumably. There hasn't been any magic for 300 years. The people who now call themselves magicians are basically people who study magic. They can't do any magic. But, of course, lo and behold, what do we find? But there's someone who claims that he is a practical magician, Mr. Norrell. And we follow his story. And then we get Jonathan Strange as well.

[00:12:59] And it's just epic. Do you know what? One of the first times I met Will, I recommended this book to him. And he then listened to it. Because the audiobook is great. Strongly recommend the audiobook. He loves it. And, yeah, it's just a cracker. It's an absolute cracker. It's obviously a bit of fantasy. It's hitting all the points in my Venn diagram. 1800s. Historical fiction. Fantasy. And it's just, yeah, it's amazing. She wrote a second book, Piranesi, which is very good as well. And probably a bit more accessible.

[00:13:27] No, actually, I think Jonathan Strange is very accessible. It is very long. But, yeah, if I respect you as a reader, you're getting recommended Jonathan Strange. What do you mean by respect to you as a reader? Yeah, I suppose that sounds judgmental. You know when people say they love reading and then they list 20 books and you've never heard of any of them? And obviously they might feel the same about you then. That you're not on the same page, you know, which is a good metaphor.

[00:13:53] So do you mean if they were like, I love Katie Price's autobiography, I like Roy Keane's autobiography? Well, if you're including- I've read Roy Keane's autobiography, actually. What's it called? Pretty good. Prick. Prick. No, I don't know. No, I suppose if I feel I'm on the same page as someone, you know, that you like literary fiction. Because yeah, I'd be the first to say I'm not good on autobiographies or biographies. I actually really enjoy an autobiography or a biography.

[00:14:20] I read a biography of Shakespeare in the last couple of months by Bill Bryson, actually. Well, that brings me to number five on my list. Oh, okay. Which is going to- I think everybody should read this thing. I think it's- Although, I've had people go back to it now and I don't know if it's age, but I think it was written in the 80s, which is The Lost Continent by Bill Bryson, which he wrote in the 80s or maybe early 90s when he was- Bill Bryson, of course, the travel writer. He's from Iowa.

[00:14:47] He moved to the UK when he met his wife, but I think he did kind of a valedictory, you know, road trip around middle America before he went home. And it's him basically driving through tiny towns in the Midwest and staying in motels and eating in diners. And it's so- Have you read it, Hugh? No. It's so funny. Unfortunately, some of the humor has not aged tremendously well around women, which is not great.

[00:15:13] But I read it when I was probably a teenager, you know, found it in the family book stash. I just absolutely loved it. And I don't know, maybe it's a weird choice, like a travel book for your top five, but there's something just really soothing and almost soporific in a good way about somebody driving in a big car, you know, around down these big wide American highways and sleeping in motels and, you know. And I mean, everything you're saying there, you love. Yeah. You love the idea of it anyway. Yeah.

[00:15:42] The big highways, the motels, the diner, can I fill up your coffee for you, hon? You know, like that's all you- Yeah, yeah. I know, I know you think I, for some reason, I'm somebody who loves 18th or 19th century historical fiction. Yeah, I, but it's very funny, but it's also just a fascinating little slice of life. And also, I suppose it's an America that I suppose is now gone, you know, and was dying even at the time. But yeah, yeah, I just want to, all I wanted in life is to sit in a diner and have a big

[00:16:11] coffee and someone top it up for me. Yeah. Then get in my big car and zoom down the big, big highway. Do you read any travel books, Hugh, any of that? No, I don't think I have. Oh, I've read some Michael Palin, some of the Michael Palin diaries. Oh yeah, me too. But you see, I'm not good for non-fiction generally, you know, I read very little. See, I don't think travel, I used to think travel fiction was going to be like a guide, you know what I mean? Like a, you know, and then when you get to- Museums. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas actually, it's not that at all.

[00:16:39] It's kind of more of an on the trot history, isn't it? Do you know who I've read and you'd actually love it? I've mentioned it to you before, it's Pete McCarthy, who's a travel writer. Oh, is he around Ireland with a fridge? No, he's McCarthy's Bar. No, he's McCarthy's Bar and The Road to McCarthy. I've read those. He died very young, didn't he? He died very young, 50 odd, yeah. Yeah, they're really good. Yeah, I just, I really enjoy, like everyone loves that experience, right, travelling, you know, when you wake up and the day is ahead of you and you're going to do something new and you're on your holidays.

[00:17:08] Have you ever, when you've been on a trip of a week or two, kept a diary? No, have you? No, but I always feel I should, you know? Oh, what am I writing? Yeah, see that's the thing, that's the thing. And am I going to read it? Is someone else going to read it? Like if someone else is going to read it, you're not going to be, you're not going to be honest, are you? You know? Yeah, that's the thing. Do you remember in college we met the author of Adrian Mole, Sue Townsend, and she said that to write, especially in that diary form, because she obviously is a famous, but she's a fictional

[00:17:38] diarist, and that to write a diary you have to be completely honest. And like that's what, I mean Adrian Mole obviously is fictional, but he's completely honest and unencumbered in his writing. Well in a way he's very unencumbered, but you know what I mean? And I think we would all write very funny, very interesting stuff, but I mean most of us you couldn't waterboard a lot of that info out of us, you know? Yeah, absolutely. And I think a travel diary could end up being quite self-conscious. I think so, I think that's the problem.

[00:18:03] If you're writing it for anyone other than yourself at the time, I think you're going to have too much of an eye on that, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Okay. Okay. I have a question for my next selection, which is, can I pick a, not quite a series, not a series, but a trilogy, quadrology kind of thing. I've got the same question and I decided that no, I was going to select my favourite of them. But I'm open-minded. I'm open-minded.

[00:18:33] The series I'm thinking of is My Brilliant Friend, the Neapolitan series by Elena Ferrante. Oh yeah, Elena Ferrante. Yeah, yeah. And that is kind of like, it doesn't stop, you know? I also think my trilogy, which I've come to, is kind of the same. Like, do you think it's kind of just like, oh, it's just one book? Yeah. Yeah. And it kind of is. Like, is anyone reading these out of sequence? Is anyone picking up the middle one? You know? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Which, whereas Terry Pratchett, your favourite. Here we go. The Discworld series. They're all completely...

[00:19:02] Discworld sounds horrible. Discworld. Do they live on a big disc? They do, yeah. Oh, I don't like that at all. No. It's carried through space by four elephants who, they stand on the back of a turtle who swims through space. This is a bit Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy for me. It is very Hitchhiker's Guide. Yeah. He's very, I would say he's quite Douglas Adams influenced all right. No. So Elena Ferrante, if I had to pick one, to be honest, I would probably pick the second one,

[00:19:31] which is the story of a new name. Okay. You haven't read them, have you? No. They are fabulous. Okay. And Olivia Colman was in a movie of one of these, was she? So she was in a movie of a separate one called The Lost Daughter, which apparently is very weird. The book and movie are very weird. Jesse Buckley was in the movie as well, I think. Okay. Yeah. They're just great. Like it's a, I presume they're extremely autobiographical. Yeah. Although the other interesting thing, which I think you'll enjoy is no one knows who Elena

[00:20:01] Ferrante is. So it's a pseudonym. No way. We don't know who the author is. There's a woman who some people think it is. Some people think it's this woman's husband. Yeah. Who's also a writer, but it's just, it's set in this very small neighborhood in Naples. And it's these girls growing up in starting in the fifties and it follows them through decades. Oh, this ends right up my street. Yeah. Very complex relationship between the two of them. It's, it's fantastic.

[00:20:29] Like it's, I actually, I really sparingly spaced them out. I read the first one over at Christmas holidays, and then I decided I was going to read each one each Christmas as a little treat. That's so Michael of you. That is so Michael. Well, I just, I could have read them all in one go, but I was like, it'll be a waste. And I would say the standard stays extremely high. The first one is brilliant. I think the second one is probably even better. I think the third one is probably same level as the second.

[00:20:56] I think the fourth maybe comes down a little bit, but no, they're fantastic. Yeah. You got it. You got to read them. Okay. How far up to the future did they come from the fifties? So the book opens like in the very first page of the book, it's like 2002 or something. And basically Elena, the one who's narrating the novel gets a call from Leela's son to say that Leela has vanished.

[00:21:20] And then it goes back from there and then works its way back up to yeah, 2000 and something. But the bulk of it is 50, 60, 70s, 80s, I would say. Okay. And all the characters, they're all very flawed. You know, there's, you love them. You hate them. There's yeah, there's loads going on. I will download this after this on Kindle. Oh, we got cracking. This sounds, sounds. I can't wait to talk to you about it. And I'm glad that you brought a slightly more positive attitude to this than my first recommendation.

[00:21:48] The first one just sounds like such a, like, I don't, it's, it just sounds really lame. Oh, I think you'd like it. And you said so many lame words one after the other. Napoleonic. Wizards are dead. Magicians, not wizards. What's the difference? I don't know, but there is one. Okay. You know. I think, is the difference that wizards are inherently magical themselves, whereas magicians can do magic?

[00:22:17] Is that what it is? Maybe? Yeah. I don't know. What about warlocks? Warlocks are never understood. And even, you know, in Harry Potter, they're sometimes like, oh, there's a warlock sitting in the three broomsticks. I think it just means an old, an old wizard. Oh. But then they were also like a hag. What's a hag? An old, an old, an old woman. Yeah. Just an old woman. I'm in a really weird position. I can't think of anything for number four. I, I worked so hard on number three. Now I have a trilogy in my top three. I could split them up. Uh. No. No, I wouldn't.

[00:22:46] Why don't you just, why don't you just go with, with the next one you have? And you can always add one later on if you want to. But surely you can think of some books that I like. What books do I like? Is Captain Corelli's Mandolin in there? Oh my God. I totally forgot about that. Oh my God. Thank you. Thank you. Which I still haven't read. Oh my God. Hugh. Okay. Four. This should be higher. Four. Captain Corelli's Mandolin. Hugh, thank you. This is, I'm surprised I didn't pick this number one. This is the most perfect book. Hugh, please. There's only a few weeks left of this summer. If I read. Well, it sounds really boring and lame.

[00:23:15] Well, you see how lame do you think this sounds? Okay. The scene. 1940s Greece. Kefalonia. Beautiful Greek island. Okay. The, the war is raging on. You do love historical Nazi fiction. I do love historical Nazi fiction. And the house of the doctor and his beautiful daughter. Is a commandeered by the Italians. Who I think are in league at this point with the Nazis. Am I right? Oh yeah. Yeah. 1940. Yeah. Should be. They are led by the charming Captain Corelli who plays the mandolin.

[00:23:45] And Captain Corelli moves into the house. And he, over the course of the novel falls in love with Pellie, who's the daughter of the doctor. And to like that, that's kind of one plot line in what is a, an, like an incredible book where it's, the different chapters are told from different perspectives of different characters. At one point there's a chapter by Mussolini himself. Oh. It's in some parts like a really simple romance. And it's, there's so much going on. It's so funny in parts. I've never seen the movie, which is weird,

[00:24:14] but you know when something is so perfect to you that I don't want to have it. Yeah. Tainted. Also the movie and the book have different endings. Oh. Yes. Wow. Which I think is quite significant. And like, it is so sad in the best way. You, you will just weep magnificently reading it. Like it is just so beautiful and the setting is so gorgeous, but it's also not lame like Hugh's books in that it's not, it's not, it's not boring and dry. Like it's, it's so, oh,

[00:24:44] like you just feel like you were in this Greek village. You know what I mean? And the food, Hugh. Oh my God. The catering is just amazing. How many magicians are in the village? There's no magicians. Okay. So what shape is the world? You only read things if it's set on a disc. Yeah. He's a flat earther. It's great. I can't believe I forgot that about Kevin Carelli. It's just so good. Hugh, please read it. It's, it's just, I feel it suffered a bit from being like,

[00:25:13] I think it was probably would have been like a big book club book when it came out. And you know, Richard and Judy's book club and everything. And it became just a fixture in people's house. I think people stopped seeing it. Do you know what I mean? It was just like, Oh, whatever. And also I think the fact that the movie came out and I don't know, was the move, I think the movie was a big hit. Wasn't it? Nicholas Cage. I think so. But I think it might've cheapened the story a little bit. And I think the movie kind of fudges the ending a bit to be more Hollywood.

[00:25:40] It's more, it was probably easier to do than what's maybe a higher concept ending in the, in the book. It's just such a great book. I'm going to reread that before I read it in the front. I know, unless you get your skates on. Yeah, I, I do. I do have it, but I didn't bring it to carry with me, unfortunately. Oh, I have it. It's on the pile of books by my bed. You know? I actually read another book by Louis de Bernier and it's, I guess, kind of a non-fiction novella. So it's sort of fictional, but it's based on true.

[00:26:10] It's called Red Dog. Have you heard of this? No, I've never read any of this stuff. So this it's about 40 pages long. It's tiny. And it's incredible. Do you know what? I'm going to find it for you and get it to you because it's just lovely. It's about this dog, this true story of a dog that lived in Australia, kind of a nomadic life in the, in Western Australia. Yeah. And the version I found in a charity shop and it's beautiful because even the little pages have like the little red dog sort of, it's, it's just great.

[00:26:40] It's lovely. But yeah, I will. Okay. And I think I also enjoyed, I think his dedication to that was if my cat ever finds out I wrote a book about a dog, she's going to kill me or something. Oh, I like that. That's good. Yeah. But listeners, if you have your, you or your parents probably have a copy of Captain Crowley's I can see it. I can see it. The blue. The spine is blue and blue and it's kind of peachy yellow. And I just wanted to go to Cephalonia so badly for so long. And then, but I think my, I think it is now quite a touristy Greek island, but I thought

[00:27:09] it would be, you know, exactly as it was in the 1940s. Yeah. But oh God. And there's so much, so much dramatic stuff happens in it. It's just, it's so good. Okay. Hugh, number three. Number three. I'm going to go with Any Human Heart by William Boyd. I don't know if you read any William Boyd. Is Any Human Heart, is this one of these misery books? No, you're thinking of A Little Life. Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[00:27:34] Which A Little Life, I read it and about a hundred pages in, I thought it was going to be one of the best books I had ever read in my life. I thought it would be ending up on this list. And you know what, you'd have loved those first hundred pages. It's these four guys, each one's an artist, one is trying to get into law, one is in writing maybe, and I can't remember the other. And they're living in this dingy little New York apartment all together. Oh. And it's so good.

[00:28:02] And then it decides to ignore the more interesting characters and just tell us about the horrific physical and sexual abuse suffered by the main character for about 600 pages. It's a fiction. Yeah. Yeah. So there's no excuse for that. No, there's not. And I also, I read another book of hers then because the person who gave me that one said, look, I know you didn't like that by the end, but try reading this one. And it was called the people in the trees.

[00:28:31] And it was this interesting concept, I guess. It was this person who discovered, who was exploring and discovered this tribe of people who appeared to be living for way past the normal human lifespan and started kind of investigating it in a scientific and anthropological way. And I remember, I think I even said it to the girl who gave it to me. I was like, I'm quite enjoying it, you know what I mean? And we haven't even got to all the abuse yet. What happens at the very end of the book?

[00:29:00] Well, turns out just, yeah, massive pedophilia situation going on. Oh, come on. And I'm like, it's so unnecessary. And it's, it's, and yeah, it's just, so I don't know what Yana Gahara is playing at here. I just, I don't think they're good books because of that. I think she is so talented and ruins her books by putting in all of this trauma and abuse. Yeah. You know? Okay. So anyway. Any Human Heart. Any Human Heart is by William Boyd. William Boyd has written so many books. He's absolutely prolific.

[00:29:30] Um, any human heart. It's never a good thing. No one's ever like. It is probably his most famous one. It got made into a TV series, which I haven't seen. What's a TV series? Any Human Heart. Any Human Heart. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's set. You'll like this, I think. It's 20th century. Right? For a start. Yeah. You even get a bit of the war. Okay. And it follows this guy called Logan, Logan Mount Stewart, which is a great name. First of all. Mount Stewart. Oh, right. He's Stuart Little.

[00:30:00] He's Stuart Little. So, and he's a magician. No. And basically it, it, it's, it's a bit. It's got a touch of Forrest Gump to it in a way in that he's kind of present through all these big events of the 20th century. He meets like he's, he's, I think he's a diplomat at some point. He might be a journalist. He deals art. He's, he does some spying at some point, but like, like, I think he, he has some sort

[00:30:25] of friendship with the Edward, the, the seventh or the eighth, the abdicating one, Edward, the eighth, I think. Yeah. It's just, it's just a great book and it's just, it's his life and his relationships and his work moving through, but you get to see it in the context of everything that's happening in this like massively influential period of history. So it's very cool. It's very, very good. Okay. And for a long time, it would have been like, yeah, one of my, my top one or two books, I would say, you know? So, and is it, what's the tone?

[00:30:54] You know, is it? I don't know. Like, it's very readable. He's written a lot of novels. He's written, he wrote a couple of James Bond books actually, which were very good. So like, it's not thrillery, but like it's fast paced, you know, it's, I don't know who I'd compare it to. It's not difficult to read. You know? Yeah. You power along through it. I wouldn't say it's funny, but you power along through it. It's just good. Good, clean fun. Strong plot, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I've always been a plot and a character guy. You know, when people tell you the writing. It doesn't sound like it.

[00:31:24] So far it's been all stuff about discs and elephants and space. No, but you know, when people say like, oh, the writing is incredibly. I really like realism. Yeah. The writing is beautiful and lyrical. Oh, that puts me off a lot of the time. And do you know what? It's not, I'm not criticizing it. If that's what you like, I think that's wonderful. I just don't think it's for me. Well, what I would say about Captain Corelli is, I would say it's kind of, it's not really, no, I think there's a great skill in painting great beauty, but without being overly lyrical and flowery in your language.

[00:31:53] But there's a story as well. You know, those books where nothing happens. I also like more visceral, you know, somebody who can really paint the picture and you're like, builds the world really effectively basically without being like, the sea was as, as blue as a mermaid's fin. But it's not even that. And the waves rippled with the old guss. It's when they don't even mention the sea. They wouldn't even mention the sea. Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[00:32:18] The dusky, the dusky thrum that, you know, moved underneath the darkness and you're like, are they talking about the sea? You know? Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just. And there's no punctuation. I'm in hell. Okay. God. Why don't people use punctuation anymore? Why, when did it become so cool to be like, we don't need inverted commas for speech marks? Yeah, you do. You do. Otherwise I don't know what's happening. Okay. Yeah.

[00:32:47] It'll make you cleverer. Yeah. These are some great choices, you. Thank you. Okay. So what I have to, I've done. Okay. Thank you for remembering my fourth book. Yeah. Number three. Okay. Bit of a weird one. I actually reread this in the last couple of months and it is C.S. Lewis's The Magician's Nephew. Wow. Okay. Big call. So the Chronicles of Narnia is obviously seven books. Yeah. So it's not a, but it's a series, right? And I, I love them all. I love the line, the witch and the wardrobe, but I'm going to pick The Magician's Nephew because as

[00:33:17] a child and then I'd kind of forgotten the plot and then I reread it. It's so fun to get all this after the fact prequel storytelling. Have you read it, Hugh? I have. Yeah. And I had the audio book, so I've listened to it dozens of times. Yeah. So were you not just delighted and, and the gaps being filled in by The Magician's Nephew for The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe? You see, I think I read it first. Oh. I think I read it before The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe. I think.

[00:33:46] But see, it was written afterwards, wasn't it? Even though it is the first book in the series. Hmm. So I think, I think I read The Lion, The Witch, the Wardrobe first. And then I think I possibly read, you know the way like in, in the olden days, the early nineties for us, sometimes like it wasn't that easy to get a book. You know what I mean? Like if the library didn't have it or someone didn't give it to you or you didn't, it wasn't a, you know what I mean? Like you might not. So I did get a compendium, I think of the seven books, but I think I read them as individual books and like, I could see some of them and you'd think, oh, like the horse and his boy

[00:34:16] and so on, or the silver chair. Like I, it took me a while to get to that. It was even though I did really enjoy them. But I, I loved The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe, but the, the Magician's Nephew, and I just think it really, I know you wouldn't think it, but it really, really stands up as a, as a standalone book, you know? I'd agree. The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe is the one that all gets all the plaudits, I feel. And it's had the movies, you know, whereas The Magician's Nephew is great. There's a movie coming of us actually this year. Is there? Yeah. Okay. Polly Plummer and Diggory. Diggory, yeah.

[00:34:46] So for anyone who hasn't read it, I mean a great one for your kids as well. So Diggory is living with his, his mum is sick and he is living with his aunt and uncle in a, in a big house in the, in what I would imagine is quite a fancy part of London. And he befriends the next door neighbour Polly and they discover that they're able to access each other's houses through the attic, which is just such a fun concept as a child. Yeah. That you could visit your best friend's house through the attic.

[00:35:10] Diggory and Polly essentially managed to go back to, to, to access the world of, not even the world of Narnia, the world before Narnia. Yeah. And I, I, there's something I, you know, the way there's all the pools and the forest that they find. The wood between the worlds. Yeah. Yeah. And the, as a child, like the idea that like, oh, they hopped in another pool. What would the other? Yeah. Some of the other worlds have had. Yeah. And of course it's where they meet the, the terrifying queen and they bring her back to London. Yeah.

[00:35:40] And you get her origin story because that's the thing. The first pool they jump into is, I can't remember the name of the land. I can't either, but it's a big. Jardis is her name. Yeah. And they, they find this terrifying hall full of sleeping kings and queens and they accidentally, well not, well kind of on purpose wake her up and she follows them back to London, but everything about it. And then there's strawberry and the cabbie. Do you remember them? Ah, that's great. The little bit in London when she's loose in London is great. And, and Diggory's uncle who was the, the quote unquote magician.

[00:36:10] God, maybe I do like magicians. It's set in 1900 though. So it doesn't, it's not 1800s. And he's trying to, the uncle is trying to impress the, the queen and stuff, but it's just a great book. And I really, I don't know why I just took a notion to go back and read it. And I just really, I really enjoyed it. And I know some people are put off CS Lewis, I think by the, the kind of the, oh, it's all a Christian parable stuff. And I mean, on some level it is, but they, you know, you don't need to worry too much about, it's just a good story. I don't think you need to worry about it.

[00:36:37] And particularly not in the first one, you know, and obviously the second one has lots of symbolism like that. To be honest, I don't think you need to worry about that, that either. So I read the magician's nephew and I read the line, the witch and the wardrobe. And then I stopped and I never read them until about five years ago. And I got really beautiful, uh, hardback edition of all of them. And I read them all. And the horse and his boy is fine. Prince Caspian is great. I love Prince Caspian. I love the voice of the Dawn Treader. It's so good.

[00:37:05] The Voyage of the Dawn Treader is great. And then the silver chair, silver chair is kind of creepy. And then the last battle isn't great to be honest. And then it, it does kind of end. The ending isn't great. Yeah. But I, God, I, I love Prince Caspian and the voice of the Dawn Treader. They, they, yeah. And, and the whole world as well that they've created. And you see the Voyage of the Dawn Treader, they get to do that great thing of, we've got some characters. Now let's go and have fun. You know, now let's go on an adventure, you know? Totally.

[00:37:33] And I think for kids, the big appeal is, you know, the way they, time doesn't pass at all in the human world. And isn't that the fancy as a child, like you would go into the wardrobe and like you could have this big adventure, but nobody, you would be free of your parents and you could do whatever you wanted. But when you came back, nothing had, had changed. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. Like it's, it's just great. There's another series, which Anya, I know you'll love because it's called The Magicians. There was actually a TV show of it, which apparently is great.

[00:37:59] And I read the first book a number of years ago and I kind of thought it is more of a, it's kind of started as a Harry Potter for grownups because it's a university of magic, but it's also in New York. Oh God, that sounds so lame. Yeah. And like, I read the first book and I kind of enjoyed it all the way through, but then I was like, I'm not going to read the rest of them. And then I got to the end and I was kind of like, oh, you kind of, you kind of got me back in. But anyway, I left it for a few years and I just read the second one on the journey from Dublin to Australia, which I think is how it's meant to be read.

[00:38:29] It was actually very good, but it's so much of it is just stolen straight from Narnia. Like they basically create it. There's a place called, I think it's called the Netherlands, but it's just the wood between the worlds. Like it's all these different fountains that you go into. Oh, come on. Yeah. You know, it's very, I think it's very deliberately and openly copying Narnia. Like there's this secret land called Fillory, which I think these kids accessed through their aunt's house or something, you know?

[00:38:58] So like there's no, but I mean, it's not as good as Narnia, I would say. No. And if you're an adult and you haven't read them, I would, I would say, give them a go. You know, you'll absolutely try through them. And for kids, I mean, they're just, and I was only, my dad and I were in a shop yesterday browsing a kids book section. And we were just, they had some of the stuff. Do you remember Marisa Conlon McKenna? They had a lot of that stuff. And I was like, God, like books for kids used to be like, that was, they were so sad and difficult and you know, but great.

[00:39:28] And then a lot of the more, I know you've talked about this a lot on your, your teaching podcast, your dad will teach you, but there's an awful lot of like, like what, like the books that are so unchallenging for children. Like the, the, the magician's nephew, like Diggory's mom is really sick. Like it's really sad and it's really difficult and he's really sad. And kids are able for that. Yeah. But there's great lessons, like there's great Diggory makes a great friend and like there's, and he goes on great adventures and he's brave and he, you know, there's, there's just.

[00:39:56] And things go right and things go wrong, you know? It's a mixed bag. It's a mixed bag. And even the, you know, he goes to get the, the apple. Yeah. And it's like, well, you've got this and it's going to help in a way. It's not going to give everything that was promised, but it is going to help in a way. So, you know, there's yeah. And also just, you know, even aside from like darker themes and stuff, like it's, it's a reason to be challenging conceptual read. And I think a lot of books are afraid to like challenge a kid with anything that isn't, you

[00:40:24] know, like I'm sure as a child there was bits I didn't fully. Oh yeah. No, although I wasn't that young when I read it. But you know, there'd be things like, you know, when you first read The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe and there was things about evacuees and you had like a very basic idea of that. But, but there's other things you didn't really understand or like, you know, but the older you get, you identify. We're probably the same age as the professor was. Yeah. But you just, you don't have to get everything. No, this is it. It's like learning a language. You don't have to understand every word to like effectively communicate. Do you know what I mean? And you know what?

[00:40:53] You don't understand every word of the books you read now as an adult either. You know, there's other things that still go over your head or that the context isn't right for you or something. So yeah. Oh no. Children's literature. I mean, listen, we could, we could spend a long time on that. But I still really enjoy reading kids books. And you know, I would say to anybody, if you're at a loose end or in holidays or something like, think of something you loved as a child. Like I was reading something about like a great way to relax is to go back to things you liked doing as a kid.

[00:41:19] So like you, you, you, you liked writing numbers on paper for cricket. Listing, listing all the winners of various scholarships. Yeah. But you probably would find that incredibly mindful to do now. Or like, if you liked drawing as a child or painting or reading and just going back and enjoying something that you enjoyed as a child, like there is, it's a lovely experience. We don't stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing. Yeah, exactly. I think that is so true. It's so true. It's so true. Oh my God. You know, there are people who are, because I don't think, I think if you say that to

[00:41:49] someone who's like even 17, they'd be like, oh yeah, whatever. But you know, those people who are like 25 and are so old, you know? Well, I've been reading a lot about this as a phenomenon now that Gen Z, which is great. They drink less, like they're fitter. Like that's all really good stuff. Yeah. They take a lot more drugs though. Yeah, but they, but they don't, I think that in work and stuff, they're much more serious about work, which in a way is to be commended, but also like lay yourself fears of like, not taking yourself too seriously. Cause you will have to take yourself so seriously in the years to come.

[00:42:19] Oh, listen. So yeah. Yeah. It is so annoying, but youth truly is wasted on the own. Isn't it though? But you know what? Yeah. But I think we're doing a pretty good job of maintaining you except all God, the, the aches and pains though. You know, it is terrible. Where are you aching? I'm finally back. I'm walking again, but you know, I had my, I had my injury. I just fell over like playing a game of volleyball on the beach. Like I only pulled a muscle because I'm 39, you know, not because I'm whatever. Yeah. Anyway.

[00:42:48] But you know, um, you're, you're right. Yeah. We, we all need to, yeah, just, just have, have fun, but go back to the things that you liked. If it's disc world, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Onya's going to start reading all the Terry Pratchett books. No, but that's not my thing. My thing. Yeah. I don't understand why like CS Lewis is acceptable fantasy for me, but disc world isn't. But it's funny, but, but fantasy in general, and I think this is a really important point.

[00:43:12] Even those of us who like fantasy, it can be quite challenging to say you like fantasy because people then think, and there's nothing wrong with this either, but people think you're dressing up to go to conferences, you know? Do you know what? I'm sorry, Hugh. I know that would be so fun. It'd be great. It'd be great. You know? Wasn't there a TV series where Daryl O'Brien went LARPing for the day and then did a gig and he had like the best time ever. But like, what? Yeah. I don't know.

[00:43:40] It's again, it's just one of those things that we're self-conscious about. And I used to kind of be like, oh, you know, not really into fantasy, but it's like, hang on a second. Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, CS Lewis, Philip Pullman, you know, since then. Fantasy writers. Since then, like Terry Pratchett, you know, like all these things. Like I love fantasy. Yeah. I think what people, I mean, there's high, I mean, Lord of the Rings say is like considered high fantasy, isn't it? Whereas like, you know, which I do, I actually haven't read the books, which is terrible.

[00:44:07] You know, even if I'm there to slag you, that shouldn't put you off it. You know what I mean? Like you should like let your freak flag fly and you should enjoy what you enjoy. And if that's science fiction or fantasy or whatever. Have you read Mistborn? Will put me onto them. No. It's another fantasy series, but. Okay. What kind of shape is the world? So, Onya, the world is dark. Okay. There are mists. There's ash falling. The Lord ruler has ruled for a thousand years. Okay.

[00:44:37] There is the Lord ruler. There is a group of, there's the class of noblemen then. And then there's the vast proletariat who are called the Ska. And they are basically completely downtrodden. But there are people. So far, so will. So far, so will. Mainly in the nobility. Yeah. Who have this ability who are called mistings. And what that means is there are, there are a number of metals, right? So you've got zinc, you've got bronze, you've got iron, you've got steel, you've got all these.

[00:45:05] And if you swallow a little bit of that metal, you can then access powers from it. So, but, but each metal gives a different power and each misting is only able to use one metal. So you're able to use tin. So that means you can enhance your senses, but I'm able to use pewter. So I can be really strong, but very rarely you find a mist born and a mist born is able to use all the metals and they're incredibly powerful.

[00:45:31] And our heroes in the first book, one is this mist born who is like a rebel fighting for the- Sorry. So you read this, but you won't read Captain Corelli's mandolin. I'll get to it. They also, there's also this young girl in the Ska who it turns out is a mist born as well. And it's just great. Yeah. Is it good? I really enjoyed it. I really, do you know what? I really enjoyed the first one. And then I just read the second one a few weeks ago and I thought that was even better. So, you know, that's a good sign. They're long. They're long.

[00:46:00] I will say that, but they're very good. Okay. So that was my number three as a magician's nephew. Okay. We go to your number two. Yes. Okay. So I'm going to say the name of a book that for a long time, ever since I've read it, I've kind of said, I think it might be the best book I've ever written. Oh, okay. But I am still a poet. Sorry, I didn't. I didn't write it. Can I guess? Yeah. I don't know. Have I mentioned it to you? Well, I'm sure I've mentioned it. Is it Wolf Hall or something? It's not Wolf Hall. Wolf Hall is great. Although the second one is probably even better.

[00:46:30] Is it The Handmaid's Tale? No. Also great. Hmm. Okay. I actually brought this book. The Secret History. No, that's very good. But I'd put it below these. Madame Bovary? No, very good. But I'd put it below that. Okay, they're my guesses. Okay. Go on, make me sound more intelligent. Olive Kitteridge? Well, do you know what? I don't think Olive Kitteridge is going to make it onto my list, which is quite upsetting, but it's fantastic. Yeah. Highly recommend that. Okay, okay. No, so this is a book.

[00:46:58] I actually brought it to the pub a couple of months ago to give to, and I gave it to Tess, I think. Yeah. Remember I brought a book and I was like, I'd found it in a charity shop. You tried to give it to me and I wouldn't take it. You wouldn't take it. And I was basically like, who wants to read it? This is great. So it's called Cutting for Stone. And it's by a guy called Abraham Vergese, who I don't know, is he Ethiopian? He, his family definitely has Indian heritage because his second book, The Covenant of Water, which is also stupendous, is set in India.

[00:47:27] But this one is set in Ethiopia. It's set in Addis Ababa in a hospital in the 50s or 60s, I think. So I think it's around the time the Italians are leaving Ethiopia, maybe? I'm not sure. That's the background. But it's set in this tiny, tiny hospital where there's one doctor and one nurse. And then this nun, this nun comes from India, I think, and has these twin boys.

[00:47:54] And it's about, it's the story, it's narrated by one of the boys. And it's the story of them growing up. And it's a lot about the, like, Abraham Vergese, the author, he's a doctor as well. So there's a lot of medical stuff in it as well. But it's setting a story in a hospital is one thing. But the fact that like this hospital is basically just a room, I think, allows you to do so much. Characters are amazing. It's just, it's a hell of a novel. Like, it's absolutely brilliant. And the other one is brilliant as well. The Covenant of Water. That's amazing as well. But yeah. Is that a sequel?

[00:48:25] No, totally unrelated. That's, yeah, that's this family through the early, first half of the 20th century in India, in this tiny little place in India. But it's just, yeah, I don't know what else to say. But it's, it's a, like, it's literary fiction. It's not a barrel of laughs, you know? Doesn't sound it. But it's just great. I guess just great. Yeah. Interesting setting too. Yeah. Well, that's it as well. I do like when things are set in places that I know nothing about, you know?

[00:48:52] See, one of the other reasons I like historical fiction, this isn't historical fiction, is because I don't know any of the real history. Like, even you, you talked about Wolf Hall, and I love that series. But I remember saying it to someone, and they were like, oh, but like, the way they treat Thomas More is completely wrong, you know? And I was like, I don't know, so I don't care. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, Cutting for Stone. Cutting for Stone by? Abraham Vergese. V-E-R-G-H-E-S-E. Do you know what? We'll put a list. We should put a list, a link. We should. But you know what?

[00:49:22] I'll give you an... He is one of those authors that I constantly check, has he written anything else? Because I'm like, I just want to read more by this guy. When was Cutting for Stone written? Oh, maybe 15 years ago, 10 years ago, maybe. I got it. My aunt, who has given me so many books over the years, she gave me Cutting for Stone and Eleanor Oliphant at the same time. Oh, yeah. And they're two completely different books, but I always class them together in my mind because I got them at the same time. Oh, Eleanor Oliphant, great read. Great read. Great read.

[00:49:50] Yeah, another honorable mention, I think, from both of us. You got me onto that, and I really enjoyed it. Cutting for Stone, 2009. Okay. Yeah. All right. I'm surprised we haven't heard more about it. Yeah, and good reads has it at a 4.3, which I think is a disgrace, but it's fine for me. Is that low for good reads? No, I think anything over four is pretty good, to be honest. It's pretty good, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, so number two for... Are we... Yeah. Yeah. Number two for me...

[00:50:17] Okay, so I was talking about another trilogy earlier that's very similar to Elena Ferrante. Can you guess what this might be, Hugh? Oh. Very similar. Like, you were talking and I was like, oh my God. And have I read it? No, I don't think so. And I was saying, I don't... Like, I know there's been a re-release of this in three, you know, separate books, but I would be amazed at anybody reading them one-on-one or one, you know, out of place. So I only read this recently for the first time myself.

[00:50:46] And it is The Country Girls by Edna O'Brien, The Country Girls trilogy. So that's The Country Girls, The Lonely Girl and Girls and They're Married Bliss. I can't... I had heard about this for... I kind of was peripherally aware of Edna O'Brien and, you know, I knew she was meant to be great. But you know when something just eludes you for a long time? Mm.

[00:51:31] Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can't... You can't put it down. And there was parts of it which were like for kind of very... Something that's very kind of... Very kind of...

[00:52:00] Not stark fiction, but very kind of grounded in realism. I was like on... I was on the edge of my seat. Like there was parts of it that were so kind of shocking and... Even though they're just about ordinary people's lives, it was just... So it's these two girls and they're, you know, they're grown up in the local school and then they go to a convent school and then eventually they move to a bedsit in, I think in Rathmines and then they eventually move to London. And I think even though it could be set now, it could be like... I think the story would transplant to loads of different settings and such a good depiction

[00:52:28] as well of female friendship and the two girls who were kind of simultaneously each other's best friends but also kind of completely at odds with each other is... Yeah. Is just incredible. Hugh, like I am so sure that you would absolutely love it. Oh yeah, no, I'll get it now. And I would compare it to... You know the way at the end of The Sopranos, James Gandolfini has done such a great job that you know Tony Soprano more than you know yourself? Yeah. It's the same with these characters. You are... You're like fully just walking around their skin for three bucks. It's incredible.

[00:52:58] Cool. Yeah. It's so dark in a way and then there's so much levity in a way but it's... And such a... Oh God, it's just so good. It's so good. And I know there's a Edna O'Brien... Is it an autobiography that she did herself called The Country Girl that I really want to read because apparently that's amazing. And I have one of her books here that I just started yesterday. It's my... The Little Red Chairs by Edna O'Brien. Yes, I have that at home. Yeah, so I'm starting that. But like I mean she has... She's written so much stuff that I'm kind of...

[00:53:27] I think it's kind of a disgrace that I haven't... I haven't read more of the stuff, you know? Yeah. Yeah. But it's great when you find someone, you know? Like I had never read anything by Donal Ryan. Have you read any Donal Ryan? Is he... What did he write? Queen of Dirt Island is one. The Spinning Heart. Oh, The Spinning Heart. I have that and I haven't read it. You'd really like that. You'd really like that. And it's nice and short. Short chapters. It's easy to read. Sorry, I can read, listener. He was making it sound like I really struggle.

[00:53:55] I think there's something about short chapters though, you know? That's very enticing. And Queen of Dirt Island is brilliant, yeah. But then I was suddenly like, Oh my God, this is great. I've got six Donal Ryan books at home to read, you know? But Edna O'Brien is such a heavyweight like in the world. Yeah. I mean the recommendation on this is from Philip Roth. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like it's, you know, like... And she's written her masterpiece in this. So... Philip Roth didn't make it onto this list. No, he didn't. The stuff is so sad. Yeah. Kind of hopeless, I would say. Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah.

[00:54:24] But oh, the country girls and especially... Sorry, I'm not saying men, but especially women. Like I just think it's... It's like... You know that thing we were talking about? If you would write a diary and you were completely true to yourself. It is sometimes like somebody saying the things maybe that you think... Even idle thoughts that you wouldn't... Yeah. You know what I mean? It's just... Oh God, it's so good. Hugh, I just think you... I think it would blow your mind. I think you'd absolutely love it. It sounds... Doesn't that sound very like the Neapolitan trilogy? Yeah, it does. Oh yeah, I'm gonna put it on the list now for September. So... Yeah, yeah. Not for school now.

[00:54:54] Not for the kids. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so it's time to reveal the best book ever, is it? Well, you know, your core text. Your number one. Favorite book. And look, I'm gonna use this opportunity for 30 seconds to just cheat and mention books that I haven't put in here, which you've mentioned Olive Kitteridge and Elizabeth Strait as one of my favorite authors. I mean, of the classics, David Copperfield is amazing. You know, Anna Karenina is amazing. I've been reading a few George Eliot's recently.

[00:55:24] George Eliot, Middlemarch? Middlemarch. So I just... I finished Middlemarch yesterday, but I actually read The Mill on the Floss, which is hers, in April, and I loved that. The Millmarch is tough work for a while, but it is very good. Excellent. Brideshead Revisited. That was my honorable mention. I would very easily have made it on my list, because it's incredible. How Beautiful We Were, Mbolo Mbue. It's an amazing novel. A Fine Balance, Rowanton Mystery would, for a long time, have been my favorite book, I think, or the best book I ever read, I think.

[00:55:54] Also, The Thousand Autumns of Jakob de Zoot. Oh, I'm just not gonna like the sound of that. By David Mitchell, not the comedian. That's brilliant as well. But I do think I have to be very true to myself. Oh my God, what's it gonna be? I go to my favorite series of all time, which is a children's series. And it's everything you talked about in terms of there being depth, there being sadness, there being complex themes, while also simple themes.

[00:56:23] There's so much adventure in it. And to be honest, it's possible that my favorite book in the series isn't the first one. But I'm going to pick the first one because it created everything. And it is Redwall by Brian Jakes. And it's just, it's unbelievable. It is fantasy in that it's, it's fantasy. There's not any magic really or supernatural stuff, but the world it's set in its only animals. It's not, it's not humans, you know? But again, I was always like, but that doesn't matter because they've got all the characteristics of people. So it doesn't matter.

[00:56:53] Anyway, who cares? You know, why do you need humans? They're basically over the course of, he wrote about 22 books. He never meant to write more than one, which was Redwall, his first one. And I would say maybe Mossflower is the best, but I'm going to stick with Redwall here. And it's set around Mossflower Woods. There is this place, Redwall Abbey, which is set up by these creatures who are peace loving and trying to, you know, do some good in the world.

[00:57:17] But ultimately they invariably get attacked by warlords from different parts of the world. And then they stand up and fight and there's great fighting in it. And some of the adventures take you to this mountain, Salamondastron, where the badger lords live. Some of them take you across the sea. He, he was very interesting because I think he... It sounds very Narnia. I wouldn't really compare it to Narnia at all, to be honest.

[00:57:44] But it's like, it's, it is a different world for you, but like it's, but it's also a world you can imagine yourself in, you know? And like, there's always, there'll always be a quest in the book. So they'll have to head off to try and, whether it's to find some other group that they know will support them. And they head off, they've got their, I mean, there's lots of love stopping in the middle of the forest and opening up their packs and taking out what they've brought to eat and drink on you, which I think you've... There's also some great catering in Redwall. I always love a little break where everyone's having a little something to eat out of a package.

[00:58:14] Yeah. And you know what? He actually released the Redwall cookbook at one point, which has all the recipes because you're, you're, there are feasts. They're invariably feasts. So yeah, it's my favorite series of all time. I have recommended, I found there was a child in sixth class this year, just gone. I wasn't teaching sixth, I'm in junior infants. And I finally thought she was the one who would read Redwall because they're long books, you know? And nowadays it is tough to get kids into some of these longer books. But this girl is an amazing reader, great kid.

[00:58:45] And I'd given her loads of books over the year. And then I said, listen, there's a book I want. And I mentioned Redwall and she was like, please, Mr. O'Connor, I've read Redwall. And I was like, okay, yeah, yeah, I knew, I knew you were like me. So they're just amazing. They're what kids books, they're everything kids books should be, I think. I think I've told you about this. I see them in the library and I didn't like the covers. Yeah, well, I got the first one. My mom got me the first one. I was scared of the cover for a year. I didn't read it for the first year. It was two mice in like with swords and stuff on the front. Yeah.

[00:59:15] And I was like, these aren't for me. I don't know why, because sometimes you would pick up something. Like I picked up Harry Potter in the library without... Oh, I'd seen a review in the Fun Day Times of Harry Potter. And that's how I knew I wanted to read it. But like when you describe Harry Potter, there's no reason that would be like any better. You know what I mean? Like, you know, why does some fantasy feel more acceptable to the reader? Totally. And something just grabs you. But I do think, I do think if you, if you found the time at some point to read Redwall, you'd love it, you know?

[00:59:42] And like in each of the books, a pretty key character usually will die at some point. So like there's, there's a lot of emotion as well. Yeah. A lot of dealing with that. Relationships, you know? Yeah. So Redwall, I mean, it's just, it's the best. God, maybe. Do you think I would enjoy them? I genuinely do think you would. Yeah. I think you would. Yeah. I sort of feel it would be, you know, it'd be nice for you to have someone to talk to them, to show about them.

[01:00:07] But that's genuinely like we, we actually recorded an episode of that'll teach you. We've done a couple of episodes with this woman, Becky Long, who works for children's books, Ireland, who are this amazing organization, who just try and get books into schools. I try and get as many good books into schools, focusing on Irish authors. But we recorded an episode with her. Normally, you know, we record for an hour, maybe we recorded for about three hours because we just kept talking about books.

[01:00:33] We had to split the, but at one point I mentioned Redwall and she was like, Oh my God. And I was like, what? You've read it? Oh. Yeah. It is nice to have someone that you can actually get stuck into the weeds with, you know? So my honorable mentions, I suppose Bridesheader visited, great. There was a great book that no one I know has read this called The Food of Love. I'd have to look who wrote it. Have you read this? No. I don't know if it's very good. I read this when I was, when I was very young, you know, Anthony Capella.

[01:01:03] And... Anthony Capella. How's it going? I wrote my book, The Food of Love. Does something ever just, I saw that the book was like white with red velvet embossing on it. It was a beautiful hardback, right? Yeah, I love that. And probably a bit of a bee treat, right? But I think if you're looking for something, it's the summer. You're looking for a bee treat. An American student, she's young. She's, you know, probably in her twenties and she goes to Rome for the year as an exchange student. And she meets this really good looking, handsome, charming waiter.

[01:01:31] And they start to go out with each other. And he realizes she loves food. She's a real foodie. I think it might be based on, is it Serrano de Bergerac? Is that the... Oh yeah. Yeah. And he can't cook. So his mild-mannered, less handsome housemate, who's a chef, does all the cooking. So like she's going over for a date. Like, I don't know how it's not a movie. And he's making the most beautiful food. And like, I remember one of the bits in it is, he's like, the handsome waiter can't understand why it's making her fall in love. And he's like, but if you wanna...

[01:02:01] It's the difference between like turning somebody on and making them fall in love. And it's like, if you wanna make somebody cry, you make them... You cook onions. But if you wanna make somebody sad, you cook them the dish their mum made for them when they were small. And there's like, I don't know, like this profoundness in the idea of food and cooking for somebody and stuff. And it's really nice. It's all about the kind of... A lot of it is quite sitcom because it gets, you know, increasingly bonkers situations like where he's cooking for her entire family and, you know, yeah. And he's got this guy in the kitchen and stuff.

[01:02:30] And obviously, she's also going out with a professor of art history at the same time. Sort of an austere older man. So, and it's all set in Rome. And it's so funny. I mean, that's a great start. If you can get a copy of it on... Yeah. And it's... It would make a great movie. So if you're looking for a good beach read this and write it, Anthony Capella, The Food of Love, it's just... I mean, does everything need to be serious? No. Have you read... Just speaking of going to Italy, have you read A Room with a View? No. And I know I need to read it. Ah, you'd love that. Yeah, you'd love that. Yeah, yeah.

[01:02:58] And what's the similar one, Hugh? I always mix them up. Oh, it's called The Butler. The Butler and... Oh, The Remains of the Day. The Remains of the Day. That's another honourable... Have you read that? Great book, yeah. Another fantastic book. But my number one, Hugh, I got a very special edition of this for my birthday this year. So, for the listener, I am unfurling a... It was in a little dust jacket. Gosh. And it's in a little thing. And I'm hoping to put this up on a little display thing in my house. So it's a very like... Have you heard of the Liftfolio Society? Yes, yeah.

[01:03:27] Yeah, so it's really nice. Oh, that's fabulous. And it is I Capture the Castle by Dodie Smith, which is my favourite book in the whole world. And this is just such a... If anyone's not familiar with the Folio Society, how would you describe them, Hugh? They kind of do beautifully typeset editions of books that are... With fresh illustrations. And it's by Dodie Smith, who people might know because she wrote A Hundred and More Dalmatians. Did she? I didn't know that. Yeah, A Hundred and More Dalmatians. Have you read A Hundred and More Dalmatians? I think so.

[01:03:57] Years ago. Oh, it's... But yeah. It's a kid's book, but like in the way kids' books used to be where Cruella de Ville was genuinely a sociopathic nightmare. Terrifying. Yeah. And her calling card was she loved pepper. And the couple go to a dinner party in her house and the ice cream is pepper flavoured. Like, you know, but it's so creepy and gothic. Like, it's really messed up what she wants to do with those puppies basically, right? It's terrifying. But... So I would actually recommend that to people as well. It's a great book. But she wrote I Capture the Castle when she was living with her American husband after the war. And it is set... Hugh, you've read it, haven't you? Yeah, I have.

[01:04:27] On your recommendation. Did you enjoy it? Loved it. Yeah. Yeah, so it's set between the First World War and the Second World War in the 19... early 1930s. And it is about Cassandra and Rose and they are two sisters who live in this castle with their dad, who is kind of a one hit wonder literary phenomenon. And they live in extreme poverty, even though they're quite middle class. And they are living in the English countryside.

[01:04:52] And then these two American brothers move into the big posh house next door. And a summer of drama ensues. I have read it dozens of times. To me, it is the most... I read it when I was maybe 14 or 15. And Tio, I'm sure you've had experience like this when you read something and you're like, the world has forever changed for me. Yeah. It's... If you want to understand me, read this book. Yeah. You know? I've given it to a couple of sort of, again, sort of your more advanced readers in sixth class

[01:05:22] and first year, you know? And yeah, they've enjoyed it. But it's not a kid's... It's not a kid's book. No, sorry. I would... Yeah. I would give it to... It's a great book for like a young adult, I'd say. Like some of their teenagers in there, you know? Yeah. A precocious 12 year old or a teenager. But it was written for adults. Like it's an obvious book. Yeah. But it's... Again, like it could be written... To me, it just zings off the page. It's just so perfect. It's... One of the things I love is, so the father has remarried. Yes. And he's married a much younger woman. An artist model called Topaz. Called Topaz.

[01:05:51] And I guess, you know, the trope would generally be that a father marries a much younger, you know, beautiful woman and she's obviously going to be an enemy and you're going to hate her. Whereas Topaz is amazing. She's so great. Yeah. And they love her and she's not much older than them, but she's much more a woman of the world. Yeah. Than they are. And like, hasn't she posed nude for like very famous paintings in London and stuff? Yeah. Like in a way, the story is as old as time, you know?

[01:06:18] Like the, you know, peace woman moves in next door and you're young and they're single and it's fun. And you know, it's... And if the country girls is quite serious and austere and sad, this is cosy and fun and nothing really bad happens and you can just enjoy, you can just lock in and enjoy yourself. I don't know how everyone hasn't read it. I don't know if maybe you, I don't know if you enjoy it quite as much as me, but it's, it's, it's just so great. But it's, it's one that I feel it doesn't get the acclaim.

[01:06:45] Like I, I had never heard of it before you mentioned it to me. Like, I don't think my parents, I don't think my mum had ever read it, for example. And, you know, and she would have loved it, I'd say, you know? Yeah. It's funny. I saw the BBC did a list of like a hundred best-loved novels or something and it was on it. So occasionally, I know for the people who love it, it is a cult classic. Yeah. There was a movie of it in the early noughties, which I haven't seen, but doesn't look great. So I would say if you've seen that and you didn't love it, don't let that put you off. Yeah. I think it, I would love to see a mini series or like a, you know, a 12 parter BBC.

[01:07:16] I think it could really get legs, but it's just, oh, if you're looking for a cosy read, like it just doesn't get better than that. And I'm, I'm, I'm so glad that I have the really nice edition of it now because it is just my number one favorite book. Yeah. And I, I reread it at different ages and it always is something new to offer me. You know, like say as a 14 or 15 year old, when I first read it, I couldn't get my head around the ending at all. I didn't understand, you know what I mean? Whereas now I'm like, you know, you, you can grow into a book as well. Can't you? Yeah. And endings I think are really important.

[01:07:44] I've read when I was teaching sixth class, I used to read them animal farm, the ending of animal farm. I'm going to spoil the ending of animal farm for anyone who hasn't read it, but nothing really changes. Like it's gone down. Things have got worse and worse and worse and worse. And then by the very end, you know, it turns out the pigs have completely almost transformed into humans and life is going to continue that way as far as they can see. And I remember so many of the students over the years have been so disappointed with the

[01:08:11] ending because things didn't get fixed, you know, because they're like, no, but Snowball is going to come back and, or whatever will happen and blah, blah. And this is, and it's like, it just, it just kind of ends. Like, yeah, sometimes books just end. And I think when you're younger, yeah, it can be tough to figure out. But then the question I always asked them, I was like, you didn't like the ending, but was it the right ending for the book? I'm such a teacher, haven't I? But also seeing when you're older, like, cause you do have kind of object permanence as a younger person where you're like, but they don't see the, the story goes on even if the book doesn't. Exactly.

[01:08:42] Yeah. And that's something you kind of come to realize. And also, you know, as you grow older and stuff, you, you understand, like you don't understand. I didn't understand a lot of, when I first read like after the cast, I didn't understand that Topaz had kind of probably been mixing with kind of a demimonde in London and that she was, you know, you, you start to understand those things like just more adult themes that were kind of going over my head or like why the dad, you know, he was this literary icon and how it, why, you know, there was things I just didn't, I didn't get. Totally. But it's like, if you read Pride and Prejudice when you're 12 or 13.

[01:09:11] I love saying demimonde. You know, if you read Pride and Prejudice when you're 12 or 13, you're, you know, and you like it, you're going to love it. But you're not going to get all the things to do with class and everything that's going on in that, you know, but you don't need to. Again, it doesn't matter. You'll get it later or maybe you won't. And that's fine too. But the story will still have something, you know, a basic story will still have something to, I mean, sorry, not to bring everything back to Frasier, but like I first used to watch Frasier with my parents when I was probably like maybe 11, 12, that kind of age.

[01:09:40] And like Frasier is very highbrow and there's a lot of like reference stuff. I didn't get any of it, but I loved it. Oh yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like all those, all those great seasons of the Simpsons, you know, and being watched by kids and like kids wouldn't get half the stuff that was going on there, you know? But it doesn't matter. Yeah. But you know, you like it. And I think it's so much of the time it informs your, your own sense of humor and stuff. And it is, I think why it's so important for kids to read that like, not that you want kids to be like aping everything they see in a book or like, but it just, it helps you

[01:10:08] develop your own personality so much. Yeah. Like I think it explains probably a lot about you that you liked Redwall. Yeah, totally. Totally. Or like why you think the way you do about things, you know what I mean? Yeah. And probably why I'm a teacher as well. You know, like I think if you're a primary school teacher, you're more likely to like children's books as well than, than other people. Oh, that's very true. Yeah. One of the great things about being a primary teacher, you get to read kids books. That's true. What are you reading at the moment? So I literally just started that Ed and O'Brien, the little red chairs.

[01:10:36] The little red chairs. Okay. I think I'm going to go over one spot for you, but.

[01:11:04] No, no, it's just, it's, it's just perfect. Um, but yeah, but I, but the other stuff could, could come and go. And I'm not even saying like the lost continent is not the fifth best book in the world or even the fifth best book I've ever read. No. But if, if you, if I was sitting somewhere and I had to read something, God, I'd pass half an hour reading that. And I think we've also got a nice, a nice little blend of books as well. You know? Yeah. Good ones from me. We're going to go to this. What was the disc one again? Disc world. That's Terry Pratchett.

[01:11:33] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we'll be back with a normal episode next week. If you hated this, I'm sorry. Yeah. But we'll be back with more of what you know and love. Do you mean Will and Michael? Yep. I do. Yeah. Okay. We'll see you next time. Bye.

[01:12:03] This podcast is part of Podomity, the UK's podcast comedy network. Why not laugh at what else we've got? Visit Podomity.com.