239. Topaz - Guest: Calvin Dyson, YouTube James Bond Expert

[00:00:00] This show is nominated for a 2026 Golden Lobes Podcast Award. Get in!

[00:00:42] Welcome to SpyHards Podcast, I'm Agent Scott. And I'm Cam the Provocateur, smuggling gadgets and sandwiches. That sounds like a bit of a tough meal. Mmm, I mean my teeth are all gone now at this point. Alright, well, that's from your years of drug abuse, right? That too. I thought it was the sandwiches, but, you know. A little bit of this one, a little bit of that one. Who can tell? Who can tell, indeed. There are good people on both sides.

[00:01:11] That's right. All bad sandwiches though. No, well, no. We have a film that we have been sort of talking around for years now. Mm-hmm. To talk about. But before we get to that point, we must complete our mission. Yeah, by talking about another movie we talked around for a long time. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. A couple of weeks ago, we reviewed Boss Baby 2. Back in business.

[00:01:41] Nope! Family business! Continuing the joke of Scott not knowing the name of Boss Baby 2. Let's just say I didn't need to look it up. I just went with my gut and my gut was wrong. Yeah, Back in Business was the Netflix TV series. I think it's a better title though. It is, and I wonder if they were like annoyed that they burned it on that TV series. What do you think had more eyeballs though? The second film or the TV series? Huh! That's actually a great question.

[00:02:10] Now, if you asked me about the Boss Baby 1... No one has ever, ever asked that question. You're right! I don't know. Some Netflix execs have asked that question. I like to think someone has tuned in just for a Topaz episode. It's like a Hitchcock die-art. And they are getting bombarded with like Boss Baby 2 jokes. Yeah. Hi guys, welcome! But to answer your question, if this was Boss Baby 1, I would say probably the movie.

[00:02:37] But in the case of Boss Baby 2, that was like a pandemic release. It was like a day and date streaming or rental kind of thing. I don't even know if people are as aware of Boss Baby 2. So, I just wonder though, like how many kids, young kids and Scott were just sitting there with like Boss Baby the Netflix series on like, you know, second screen. They're playing with their toys and Boss Baby is on the TV series. I'm glad you said toys.

[00:03:05] But, I mean, Scott has his Enterprise out and his like Picard figure and Boss Baby the series is on in the background. The babies are bald. Picard's bald. I'm bald! Yay! The perfect trilogy! Hitchcock is bald! There you go. There you go. Quadrilogy. But, I'm gonna say the TV series. I think probably the TV series has more eyeballs, even though from our world, those are invisible eyeballs we don't know anything about.

[00:03:36] Yeah. And they will never listen or watch us. Well, not for another maybe 20 years. No. The average age of a Spy Hearts listener is not the Boss Baby crowd. No, they gotta grow up a little bit and then, then they will be taking the deep dive. Then we'll get them. That's right. They're gonna be like, who is this Matt Helm? I need to learn more. But you people, I know you're itching for us to get to it and we will, but we heard back from you in surprising amounts about Boss Baby 2.

[00:04:05] Yeah. So the first comment I've got is on the Patreon from Zora Lens. And the comment is, our most anticipated sequel review and then the high-five emoji. And I appreciate the snark because we brought the snark as well, I think a little bit to this one. But it begs a question to me. Okay.

[00:04:31] Thank you, Zora, for, you know, responding to the release of Boss Baby 2. Much appreciated. But... And your patronage. Of course. Especially the patronage. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, but... Boss Baby's done. And I'm not, like, uh, really expecting too much of Boss Baby 3. I just, I just feel like it's probably not gonna happen. I think it's a dead franchise. I think so. Um, so... Boss Baby's in the rearview mirror.

[00:05:00] What's now the looming threat? Because we taunted the audience with Boss Baby. And also, I think, with Cats and Dogs. Um, like, what is now the outstanding one to dangle as the danger ahead kind of movie or franchise? I mean, it's pretty simple. Okay? It's a Despicable Me films. Yeah. I mean, I was gonna say Cars 2. No, but Cars 2's, like, interesting.

[00:05:28] Especially within, like, the Pixar world. What does it mean to Pixar? And people know Pixar movies. Yeah, like, but the... Yeah. You're looking down the barrel of three, four Despicable Me films? Uh, I think it's four. The Minions ones don't really count. Um, but the Despicable Me's do. I think it's four. Yeah. So, if you think Boss Baby was too much, you just wait. It might be five because of Minions, Rise of Gru. I think that one might count.

[00:05:56] So that's your next, uh, the Sword of Damocles. She's just above us right now. It's swinging back and forth. Is it gonna drop on our heads? We'll find out. Yeah. But Zora Lanzo, I'm glad you enjoyed the ride. Yes, yes. Uh, and may the ride continue ever more in our hearts. Uh, this one comes in from Brendan Hicks. Brendan says, the Boss Baby episode is amazing. You got the Simpsons and Red Hot Chili Peppers puns in there? Great work.

[00:06:26] We can't stop with those puns. We're truly addicted to the shindig. Uh, he also went on to say that, uh, his 10 year old says, Boss Baby 2 is better than the first one. Interesting. Um, I would have thought like the longer pace would wear out, uh, kids, but- I think you're already putting too much into that one. Do you think it's just like the recency bias kind of thing? No, I think, I think they're 10 years old. They just enjoyed it more. Sure.

[00:06:54] They didn't need to have a two hour podcast taking it apart. They just went, no, I prefer this one. And everyone was like, okay. Okay, that's fair. That's fair. Yeah. Sorry, sorry to take away your like film guy thing there, but I think that's just a 10 year old enjoying themselves. One more comment. Yes. Michael Fenimore Cox sent in an email. It says, I listened with joy to your latest foray into Boss Baby territory. I imagined Scott and Cam strapped to the chair inspector style torture.

[00:07:25] I have also experienced this painful watching due to kid sitting favors. So we got other adults out there that know the Boss Baby experience. That's a diaper. I would, I would throw it very quickly. Oh no, I've had the Boss Baby experience. Now he brings up our looming threat. Now, Scott and I, for those that maybe skipped that episode, we're going to make you remember it. We realized there's a Boss Baby like TV special, a Christmas TV special.

[00:07:52] And so we'd said that that was probably going to be our Patreon OSS episode celebrating, you know, the Christmas season this year. Because how do you not wrap up the year with the Boss Baby in a year that was all about the Boss Baby? Mm-hmm. And we said, this is happening unless you have alternates. And Michael Fenimore Cox doesn't have an alternate TV related, you know, spy Christmas thing.

[00:08:18] But he does say that we need to tackle the spy who came in from the cold. Maybe on the main feed, obviously. That it has bleak espionage drama culminating at Christmas. You lads have been promising this forever. No, no, no. No more foreplay. Surely a download victory. I don't think I can protest and I doth not too much. Uh, we need a Christmas film for our Spy Hearts Christmas film.

[00:08:47] And that's probably one of the ones that's in the running at the moment. Yeah. And I think we've pivoted between kind of like silly trivial spy stuff at Christmas versus like the heavy hitters. Um, and so we did the Invasion USA Chuck Norris film last Christmas. Yeah. The one before that we did Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. The one before that we did Red, the Bruce Willis film. So I feel like we're due for something serious. I don't want to sign off on it, but it's looking likely.

[00:09:14] I think it's a, I'm not going to say go all in on your betting, but it's a decent bet. And you know, Cam, you know what you can bet with? Hmm. Jules. Yes, you can. Yes, you can. So let's get to it. Topaz. Before we continue, we need to welcome our guest, a man who has been on this show more

[00:09:43] times than I can count. I think he's part of the five time club now, which is an esteemed club of people on this show. I've lost count. Calvin, you have to let me know. It's the one and only Calvin Dyson. Hey, thank you very much for having me back. And I'm so excited. Yeah. This feels like a prophecy is being fulfilled in some way. Cause we talked about, I can't remember if it made it into the episode or not, but I think it was way back when we talked about, was it torn curtain that we, we talked about? No, no, it was the man. Yeah. It was the man who knew too much.

[00:10:12] The remake version with Jimmy Stewart. No, no, I think it was from Calvin's first appearance on the show way back in our early years talking about gold finger. Wow. I think it was off air. And we were talking about like what other things you'd like to talk about. And you were like, I'm a big fan of hit topaz. Must talk about topaz. Uh, and I think we wrote on our master list, Calvin Dyson next to topaz. Brilliant. Yeah. So it's just been there. And it only took seven years. Yeah.

[00:10:42] Come around. But this is exciting. Basically I was being selfish when I was forcing myself on this because I don't know about you guys. Topaz is a movie that I've seen about four times in my life. Probably. It's a film that's often included in the universal Alfred Hitchcock set. So it's, you know, it comes as part of the box set. Usually. Um, I've seen it maybe four times. I've never actually spoken to another human being about it. I never have actually had a conversation because no one watches this film.

[00:11:10] Um, so I'm excited for today. Now you've like opened up to my mind to like those people that would buy box sets. And what is the ignored movie in that collection? Um, we were talking off air about a good day to die hard, but if you buy like the die hard set, a good day to die hard is the disc that's gathering dust. Yeah. What are you talking about? It's five. Surely. That is the good day to die hard. Oh, I thought that was full. No, that's a, well for you, that's I think die hard 4.0. And for us, that's live for your die hard. Yeah.

[00:11:40] That's why it's confusing. Yeah. The multiple titles. I'm with you. I'm with you. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, yeah, maybe for the original plan of the apes, it's battle. That's the weakest one, but with that Hitchcock set, because I have the sets you're talking about Calvin, both. I had the DVD box set as well as I've got the 4k sets. I feel like Topaz is the one that gets the least love. Hmm. Hmm. Might not be unjustified. Well, is that for good reason? We're going to find out.

[00:12:07] Well, well, it's an interesting one. But before we dive into the, the, I don't know, the jewel that is Topaz, um, I use that term loosely. Calvin, it's been a beat. How have you been? What's new with you? And for those who are tuning in for the first time to hear Calvin, Calvin is the James Bond YouTuber in my book. And so if I ever think about James Bond on YouTube, I think about Calvin Dyson and it's

[00:12:35] always been a pleasure to have you on the show, but now we're talking about non Bond things. So, you know, we're stretching you here. Hmm. Oh no. Well, that's very kind of you to say. Thank you. I appreciate that. Um, but yeah, no, I, uh, I'm, I'm a Bond YouTuber, I guess is, uh, the, the, the term. So most of the time I'm talking about James Bond on YouTube. That's my bread and butter these days, but I have always been a huge Alfred Hitchcock fan. So particularly when it comes to Hitchcock movies, anytime, you know, I can, you know, jump

[00:13:05] on a call or, you know, have a drink and talk about one at the pub. That's fine by me. So, uh, yeah. Uh, so looking forward to getting into, yeah. Topaz really. Is it to like a, I mean, when you talk about Topaz on the phone to someone, is it like a therapy line? Well, I never have crucially with Topaz. So that, that's what, you know, this is for, right? This is therapy for us all. Exactly. Right.

[00:13:31] And you in the past have done videos on Hitchcock movies, because you've done one on Torn Curtain that I've seen. You did, I think a North by Northwest one. Yeah. Um, but why, I guess, why never Topaz? Um, ooh, that's a very good question actually. I'm not quite sure. Uh, my, my head says the, uh, you know, it's a long movie. There's a lot to talk about with it.

[00:13:57] And is anyone going to watch a video of me sort of monologuing about Topaz? I don't know, but, uh, yeah, it's, um, it's not a, a very exciting movie to talk about. Actually, I shouldn't be saying this at the start of a podcast. We're going to be talking about the film. No, it's going to be great. We're going to have a wonderful time talking about it. I'm sure. But, um, you know, yeah. Um, maybe I should shut up right there. I don't know. Look, you're in a safe space, Calvin.

[00:14:25] You're talking to guys who just recently covered Gary Cooper's Civil War films from 1930. So, uh, and, and the Boss Baby 2 last week, I think. That's right. So we can jump through all sorts of hoops. It's not about what the movie is. It's about how much, uh, how much fun you make the experience. Oh, yes, exactly. I like that. Put that on a bumper sticker. Um, well, I mean, my question at this point is usually, Cam, what are we talking about? But we've sort of spoiled that. Why don't you do it anyway? Because I know you love to say it. Yes, of course.

[00:14:55] We're tackling the 1969 Alfred Hitchcock film Topaz. His actually follow up to Torn Curtain, which we previously covered on the show. Yeah, I didn't, until I looked into it, I didn't realize that this was actually the sequel to it. And you'd think he would learn some lessons. Well, it's a different type of movie. Yeah, it is. He learned lessons, whether or not we agree with those lessons. We are talking in circles.

[00:15:24] Um, I guess there is less background plates that are awkward. Less of that. There's a reason why there's no movie stars in this film. And that's because he didn't have a very good time with Paul Newman and Julie Andrews on Torn Curtain. So that was a lesson that he learned. And he's managed to keep the lack of sexual chemistry theme going through these films, which is nice. Yeah. I think he realized Torn Curtain was too short.

[00:15:54] Ah. And was like, we just need a little more breathing room. That was the problem with Torn Curtain. It wasn't long enough. That's right. That's right. That curtain was a little too short. This was something that I wanted to, um, ask you both actually, because, uh, well, Scott, I'm assuming that we probably saw the same version of the movie, which is the longer cut, which is about what is 143 minutes. Um, yeah. Cam, what do you have?

[00:16:22] Um, like, do you also have that version or do you have the shorter cut? I don't know how it works sort of geographically. Yeah. So I have the 4k North American editions, the three box sets of the Hitchcock universal films, and it is the 143 minute cut. Right. Okay. So yeah, I have a bit of backstory on that. I'll just say it up front now. Cause you bring it up, but like, so originally in like they did press screenings, um, back

[00:16:49] in 69, that version was 125 minutes. And then it was confusing. It, uh, had audiences a little press actually scratching their heads. So they tacked on a minute and a half. That's the version that aired in theaters, um, initially, but when they did re-releases, it was the extended cut, which I think is considered just the definitive cut. It seems to be, it's the, it's the one that's put out on, um, you know, home media discs.

[00:17:19] Uh, I think, I mean, the Wikipedia page for the film is a bit confusing. Cause at the very end, it does have in the American and French versions. This is the ending or this is the ending in the British version, which I don't think is the distinction anymore. I think it is just, if you're in a predominantly English speaking country, you'll get the extended cut on disc. And if you're not, you'll get the shorter cut. And I think it's to do with when the film was dubbed, um, originally.

[00:17:47] So this, like I checked on my disc that it's like, I think it's the only disc in my 4k set where I can't, you know, there's no other language options. It's just the English version because when they were theatrically releasing this, it was the 126 minute cut. Uh, and so it was dubbed at the time and you know, it, all those extra bits that were sort of added in for the home media releases of the English language versions. Uh, they just didn't have the, you know, the dubs from back in the day. So that's why it's shorter in, um, in other territories.

[00:18:17] I believe that's the reason why. There were also though, different endings, uh, depending on where you saw it in the day, because there's the airport ending that we're going to talk about today. That's what we saw, but that was only the ending in England, uh, initially. And in the U S and France, it was the suicide ending with the, uh, the mole at the end, killing himself off screen. I called that the poochie ending. Right. Right. Off screen.

[00:18:47] Oof! And that's it. Okay. Yeah. It was basically just made up in editing. So it was something that they had to just kind of cobble something together because people were confused by the ending. Um, I, I, I, I worry that we are getting ahead of ourselves. Mm-hmm. So I'm going to pull the reins here and get us on track. For those who haven't watched Topaz, despite us having spoken about the ending a little bit there, here is your synopsis just so you're not spoilt for the rest of the film.

[00:19:16] Is it like seven pages long, Scott? Uh, actually, surprisingly, no. It's one paragraph. Wow. Ooh. I can't wait to hear this. Wow. Uh, and it's, there's exclamation marks. So I will, uh, I will put some razzmatazz on it for you all. Okay. Stand back. Topaz! Hitchcock takes you behind the actual headlines to expose the most explosive spy scandal of this century!

[00:19:47] That was, that was me acting. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Probably better than some of the people in this film. Copenhagen, Denmark. 1962. When a high-ranking Soviet official decides to change sides, a French intelligence agent is caught up in a cold, silent, and bloody spy war in which his own family will play a decisive role. Hmm. Hmm. I mean, that's pretty succinct, actually. Hmm. Speaking of lessons people should take. Wow!

[00:20:17] I'm really, I'm really coloring in here, aren't I? I'm really adding a, adding some shade. Um, yeah, that, that's the setup. Uh, the gist is basically it's a, it's about the, the lead is a French intelligence agent, which took me a while to figure out who the lead was. But, yeah, that's, that's it, really. Um, I, I just have so much to say about this film. But, uh, I know we're all chomping at the bit, but Cam, we need the backstory. We need to know how you went from Torn Curtain, from the heights of Torn Curtain.

[00:20:47] Well, before we get to that, though, we've got a, just, first, first impressions of the movie. Oh, you're right! You're right! Um, and so, like, Calvin, you've mentioned you've seen it four times. But I want to know. Let's hop in the time machine. Why? Well, I want to hop in the time machine. Calvin's first time watching the movie. What is his takeaway? Oh, hated it. Absolutely hated it. Would have said it was one of my least favorite films of all time at a certain point in history, which I think is probably a bit, eh, you know, I might have been a bit overblown now.

[00:21:15] But I think that, because I saw this when I was getting into films in general, when I was like an, you know, in my early teens. And as we've already said, this is one of the films that's in the Universal Hitchcock collection. So whenever they put out a collection, this is inevitably in it. And I watched pretty much every other film in that set, I think. And there were some highs and lows. You know, I'm not a huge fan of family plot. I love Frenzy and I have a soft spot for Torn Curtain.

[00:21:42] And then it got to Topaz and it was just, oh, wow, this is long and boring and confusing. And I don't know anyone here. And it's yeah, I really didn't connect with it at all. And then I watched it again around university time. And then the next time I watched it, when the Hitchcock films came out on Blu-ray, just on standard Blu-ray, never touched that disc. That Blu-ray never got played. And then finally, when the 4K came out, I was like, you know what?

[00:22:08] Okay, I'm going to get into it again and give it a go. And I actually found myself enjoying chunks of it. I think it's a very messy film and I think it's going to be interesting to discuss. I think we're going to talk a lot of, you know, tweaks here and there could maybe have, you know, come out with something more, you know, competent and enjoyable. But yeah, I think time helped.

[00:22:36] And I think a greater understanding of the context in which it was coming out helped. Like, you know, now that I know what the Cuban Missile Crisis was and things like that, like it's very, because you really do kind of need that real world knowledge. I think to the film kind of assumes that you just know this. And in the film itself, you know, it came out like, you know, it opens in 1962. The film came out at the end of 1969.

[00:23:01] It wasn't exactly on the pulse of this wasn't like Dr. Strangelove coming out to a point of sort of like really, you know, heated tensions, which gives the film an extra sort of meta quality. This was kind of a bit, you know, late in the day, I think, to say something topical about the Cuban Missile Crisis. But yes, so I've made peace with Topaz is, I guess, the short version of that.

[00:23:25] And I do think that there is a lot in here that is, you know, worthwhile Hitchcock stuff. I do still think it's worth checking out. But certainly when I first saw it, I hated it. I wasn't too far off from you. I, okay, I may be wrong, but I have memories that I bought in the Universal DVD set and I've been basically checking off all the Hitchcock greatest hits before I bought that.

[00:23:54] So I'd watch Psycho and Rear Window, North by Northwest, 39 Steps, ones like that. Bought that box set very excitedly. And I had some knowledge of Topaz, not in the sense of like what it was about. I didn't really know. But I think my mom had said it was really boring. For some reason, I had a sense like there was a negative kind of air over that movie, which is why I left it to the last one in that box set that I watched.

[00:24:24] I watched Family Plot before that and I was basically skipping ahead chronologically because I just, there was for some reason, maybe it was like a review I came across, like an archival review. Something about Topaz had jumped out. And so I remember one night it was like, okay, look, I love the Hitchcock films. I love this era for him. I'm sure it's just misunderstood. And I sat down and I was fairly young.

[00:24:53] I was probably, I wasn't a teenager, but I was probably in my late twenties and sat down one night and watched Topaz. And I was just stunned at like how convoluted and how there was so little to hang on to. And it really just held me at arm's length. And in a way where I got, I think more angry watching it, where I was just feeling like this movie is giving me nothing and it's really making me angry to watch.

[00:25:21] And I will say like my, this was my second experience going back to it. That's how much like it annoyed me was I'm just not even gonna bother watching this movie again. I didn't upgrade to the Blu-rays. So I went from the DVDs to the, to the 4k set. And so I was actually really excited to watch it for the reason of just seeing the 4k transfer, but also just seeing like 20 years ago, did I just maybe have the wrong take or was I just impatient?

[00:25:45] Was I going in expecting something like North by Northwest and wound up with Topaz, which is an unfair comparison in terms of the two movies. But when you're looking at the lineage of Hitchcock spy films, they tend to have a fair amount of energy and Topaz is like anti-energy. So it was one that I had very negative associations with and was always one that when Scott and I started this podcast and I was writing the list of Hitchcock films, I was always like one day that one's going to be a struggle.

[00:26:16] I have no story to add because this was my first time. Had you heard of it or did you have any sort of like sense of what it was going in? No. Well, I mean, the only thing I knew is two things. One is through just social media because that's what I run for the show. And when I talk about Hitchcock, people will also like typical engagement bait tweet. Oh, what's the Hitchcock's best spy movie? Blah, blah, blah.

[00:26:42] And then they'll be like, oh, North by Northwest. Oh, 39 steps. Don't watch Topaz. Hmm. OK, noted, noted. And then Calvin asking to come on for Topaz either meant it was the best. Or like a disaster that's fun to talk about. I won't weigh in on it yet, but I think we're starting to get a sense of which way is.

[00:27:05] Well, it's a it's interesting when you look at Hitchcock, his movies are so many of the masterpieces, but he has these movies that are frustrating. And sometimes those are the most interesting ones to try to analyze because it's like this is someone this is not Hitchcock at the early stages of his career when he's making some real clunkers or even when he's making something like the number 17. You know, where you're like, oh, man, what happened there?

[00:27:32] Like this is Hitchcock well past his master period. He's continuing on. And it feels like in some ways him struggling against what popular tastes are, not really knowing which way to go. This is 1969. This is the year where you're going to have the counterculture taking over Hollywood. And I feel like maybe there's a reason this movie is a little bit confused. I think there's a few reasons. Well, well.

[00:28:00] Well, I think what you're actually saying is this is Alfred Hitchcock's Megalopolis. Oh, I don't know. This was not a vanity project for him at all. No. Okay, that's fair. That is fair. And I think that leads us in to the behind the scenes. Yes. So this was based on a book by author Leon Uris, who was a Maryland born writer and occasional screenwriter. His specialty was historical fiction. And he had a few of his books turned into movies.

[00:28:28] He did one called Battle Cry, which became a World War II film with Van Heflin. He did the Angry Hills, which starred Robert Mitchum. It was a movie in 1959 that was a Greek resistance spy thriller. So I've added that to our list to cover. And he had also... Strap in next week, folks. It's Robert Mitchum time. Those hills are going to be angry. Oh boy.

[00:28:50] And he'd also written Exodus, which was turned into a very bloated Paul Newman film in 1960 about the creation of the state of Israel. And that movie was like a huge deal. It was like three and a half hours. And it is one of the biggest chores to sit through I've ever encountered with a movie. I mean, I have nothing to really add there, but... As in, that's just one of the worst things you've seen.

[00:29:18] It's not one of the worst. Because you can look at something that's like truly atrocious. It's like, it's well-meaning. It is 1960s Hollywood. It is... This is a three and a half hour epic with big stars, big production values, but the pace of like jello. So strap in next week, everyone. It's Exodus!

[00:29:44] Notably, Leon Uris also wrote the screenplay for the 1957 Western Gunfight at the OK Corral, which is kind of a low-key classic with Burt Lancaster and Kirk Douglas. Now the book Topaz was published in 67, and it was based on accounts allegedly by French agent Philippe Therod de Vosjali. Apologies for the pronunciation. I knew as soon as I was writing that one out that I was going to be in trouble. Should have sent that one to me, Cam. I do speak French. Well, there you go.

[00:30:15] This book, this manuscript got a big response. This is before it's even published. French President Charles de Gaulle had heard about this book and publicly denied any truth to this being actually, you know, actually being something that happened. And so like, this book was actually held up for being published because the French government wasn't too happy with it.

[00:30:40] And when it came to the film, the only way they could shoot in France was if they agreed that Charles de Gaulle would not be featured in the movie. Yeah. Topaz. Topaz. It's not often I agree with France. That's how I'm going to answer things from now on. Topaz. Right? Topaz, am I right? Topaz. Now, this is Hitchcock's 51st film and it's the follow up, as I said, to Torn Curtain. This is not the movie he wanted to make at the time.

[00:31:09] He was way more interested in a script he'd been working on for Frenzy. And Universal did not like Frenzy. They were saying, no, we're not too interested in that. But Universal president Lou Wasserman, who at one point was Hitchcock's agent in the past, basically said, we want to work with you. Here's a list of properties we have. Do any of them jump out to you? And he picked Topaz out of that pile.

[00:31:36] And what grabbed him was the idea of modern espionage and doing something like a realistic Bond film that was adjusting to changing times. Wasn't that his line for Torn Curtain as well, though? There was an element of that. I want to do more of like a anti-Bond kind of thing. Yeah. It's almost as if he was sort of seen by many as one of the masters of spy films.

[00:32:03] And then Bond turned up and he was like, ah, I guess I'm not the master anymore. Or is it also like I need to be in charge of the next evolution? Like we've seen the 60s super spy. The 60s is coming to an end. I want to be the guy that charts the course for where these are going. It's interesting when you... Frenzy is one of my favorite Hitchcock films. I love that film so much. And particularly coming after Torn Curtain and Topaz,

[00:32:26] it does feel like a bit of a creative shot in the arm for him when you see that film and how sort of much more alive. And so it feels like it's directed by a much younger man, someone who's like maybe at the start of their career. Whereas there is something quite sort of bloated about Topaz. And I know from what I read about behind the scenes where Hitchcock would just sort of like, you know, take himself away at a certain point of the day or something because he was just tired and feeling a bit.

[00:32:54] And you know, he is, you know, getting on in years at this point as well. So that's understandable. But yeah, there is a kind of a sluggishness about it, I think. Yeah, yeah. And so the book had not been published when Hitchcock became attached due to the controversy. So there was also like a kind of taboo element of this that probably appealed to him as well. Like this book is scaring the French. And that's interesting. Not easily scared those French, are they?

[00:33:25] Sacre bleu. And so when they made the deal to make Topaz a movie, it started a lawsuit over the book and the film rights between the author Leon Uris and the agent he had talked to, DeVos Jolie. Oh, come on, Cam. You got to give me that, Scott. How do you say it? DeVos Jolie is what you just said. Turning into Clouseau.

[00:33:54] It's V-O-S-J-O-L-I. Can you send it to me? No. Okay. So basically, what happened was this operative said that he had written a manuscript for his own story in French. And Leon Uris had been translating it and then had turned that into his own book. That was the accusation.

[00:34:20] And so the operative, this French operative, actually won in court damages for $350,000. So Leon Uris was, it seems, accountable. And there was a lot of questions as to who actually the author of Topaz truly is. Hmm. V-O-S-J-O-L-I. Yeah. Vosli. Vosli. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Strip it down. Okay. Well, there we go.

[00:34:47] So, Hitch actually wanted to hire Leon Uris to adapt the book for himself. But they did not get along. Uris did not enjoy Hitch's sense of humor and how he wanted to inject moments of whimsy into serious situations. And he was really confused because Hitchcock kept saying he wanted this to be a realistic spy film. But could he perhaps draw inspiration from Notorious? Hmm.

[00:35:16] I mean, Notorious has the odd moment of reality. It does. But it is a very like Hollywood. At the start. Yeah. So. That's why I love it. Yeah. Not a match made in heaven. And so instead he went to screenwriter Samuel A. Taylor, who was born in Illinois. He was mostly a playwright actually. That's primarily where most of his work was.

[00:35:41] He had a couple of TV credits in the late 40s and made his Hollywood debut when his play The Happy Time was adapted into the 1952 Charles Boyer Louis Jourdan comedy, which is about a teenage boy who falls in love with the family maid. Hmm. You wouldn't get that today, would you? You should see the poster. It's like the maid is in like a freck sheet, sexy French maid costume. Did you just put sexy and Frenchie together? I did. Frexy, did you just say?

[00:36:09] I don't know if I was like blending those two. I was thinking of the word frenzy from the Hitchcock film, but it's one or the other. I quite like Frexy. Frexy, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I coined something new there. He can have it. I'm not putting Spyheart's name on that. That's a Cam Smith original. No, no, I don't want it. I don't want it. Then in 1954, Samuel Taylor adapted his own play into the movie Sabrina, which was a huge hit. He got an Oscar nomination for it. It starred, of course, Bogart, Hepburn, and William Holden.

[00:36:40] And the movie was much acclaimed. And from that movie over the next few years, he's actually brought in by Hitchcock to co-write Vertigo, a movie that Hitchcock had very mixed feelings about in the wake of. Because even though he was passionate about the project, audiences did not like it at the time. And Hitchcock kind of turned on it. So that's why he was someone who typically went to the same collaborators over and over again. But after Vertigo, he did not bring back Samuel A. Taylor for a while.

[00:37:10] And so this was actually Taylor's follow up to the 1967 Rosalind Russell comedy, Rosie. And yeah, basically Hitchcock went back to him because he was, I think, kind of like a safe writer he knew he'd worked with. But it was obviously not one of his top tier favorites. I'm more interested in the story about Hitchcock kind of distancing himself from Vertigo because, of course, now that is held up as one of the best. I actually had it. I have an issue with Vertigo. I don't not the actual condition.

[00:37:39] I don't have an issue with Vertigo personally. You're like Lucille too. Good reference. Thank you. Very good. Yeah. I'm a monster. Yeah. I found the lead character to be a piece of crap. And that was my problem with it. And I know that was part of how it was. But was that the sort of audience's problem with it at the time as well?

[00:38:09] Yeah. With Vertigo, yeah. I think people found... I mean, Jimmy Stewart was like the most likable actor out there. Oh. And you're portraying him in a way that was quite toxic and quite... Where audiences didn't know how to feel about him. Which is not how they want to feel about Jimmy Stewart. Hitch blamed a lot of the movie on Jimmy Stewart being too old. Which I don't think was particularly truthful. Because he then hired Cary Grant, who was older than Jimmy Stewart, to star in North by Northwest. But, yeah.

[00:38:38] It was their last film together, wasn't it? Hitchcock and Stewart. It was... yeah. Yeah. I think it was one of those where audiences were quite muted on it at the time. And then it was sort of, you know, when... Particularly when the French sort of started, you know, really discussing the themes of Hitchcock films and everything. And I think it stands now as probably his most personal film, really. In terms of the ideas that he's exploring.

[00:39:03] But I think, you know, something like North by Northwest is, you know, a much, you know, more surefire, crowd pleaser kind of film. And I think that that's, yeah, what audiences were more interested in at that time. I haven't met many people that love Vertigo the first time they see it. I didn't. No. Me neither. Definitely not. It took a few years. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was probably maybe my third or fourth viewing. Same. Where it really clicked. Yeah. Yeah. I remember taking my friend to see it in a theater for my second time.

[00:39:33] Because they were showing like a, you know, rep's screening of it here. And just sitting there going like, I feel bad for bringing my friend to this because this is not the type of movie he'd be wanting to watch. And we got out and he was kind of like, yeah, that was an experience. There's only one film in my life I've given more than... Actually, there's two films in my life I've given more than one try to try and have it win me over. One was Tenet and that's still not won me over. Or I've still not started watching it yet. I'm not really sure what's happening in the timeline of that film.

[00:40:03] And then the other one sat here and that took about 10 viewings for me to start enjoying Star Trek the motion picture. Right. That's unhealthy. Yeah. Did you see 10? About, about 10. Wow. Yeah. I had to watch it on the big screen really before I actually got it. Oh, right. And now I'm like, yeah, I understand exactly what they were going for. But I also understand why people think it's the most boring film they've ever seen. And then I will slide them a disc of Topaz.

[00:40:30] Oh, well, okay. So the screenplay for this movie wasn't even finished until the back half of shooting. And so they were instead relying on a very detailed treatment that was written by Taylor and Hitchcock. And often Taylor was providing pages day by day as they were shooting. Um, yeah, yeah. So that might explain why there's a little bit of an unwieldiness to this movie and also why the ending was never really figured out. Mm-hmm.

[00:40:59] But that's, that's why editors are so important. They can go in and be like, okay, well, this is a lot of gubbins. Mm-hmm. Snip, snip, snip, snip, snip. And then you end up with a tight film. But I, I wonder if there's a credited editor on this film. Um, there is, but, uh, I mean, back in these days, it was unusual to have a film with an unfinished script in production. Whereas nowadays that's just common. Yeah. I don't even know if Doomsday has a script yet. So.

[00:41:28] Hey, as of the day of recording, there's a trailer out somewhere. Somewhere. I don't know if it has anything that'll end up in the final film. Yeah. Who knows? But, so. Hmm. But for Hitchcock, not that common because he was someone who liked to know exactly what the movie was before he even showed up on set. And he said production was usually boring because he already knew what the movie was.

[00:41:49] I think he, he, there's a quote which I'm probably mangling from him where he did say something like the three key ingredients to a good film are the script, the script, the script. And it's like, yeah. So for him to like be just shooting without a completed one is, uh, and it does explain, I think, why so much of Topaz feels quite, um, episodic. Like it feels, you know, there's these little, I was kind of thinking like, oh, maybe this would have been better as a mini series or something like that where they could have expanded on some of this stuff.

[00:42:18] Maybe given the hero more of a through line, I guess we'll get into talking about it more, but, um, you know, our lead character is problematic in the sense that I think all of the memorable scenes and sequences in this film don't include him. Um, and he doesn't do as much as a lot of other characters that I, uh, I think that's one of the main problems with this thing. And maybe that comes from kind of, uh, you know, they were writing this thing, didn't quite know where they needed him to be.

[00:42:45] And he ends up just being the sort of, uh, center point to all of these story satellites that are going on around him. I'm glad you bring him up because originally the studio wanted a star and they were looking at Yves Montand, who was a French actor. Um, but they were also pushing Sean Connery. Ooh. Um, for a Marnie reunion. Wow. That classic French actor, Sean Connery. Oh, could you imagine him doing the accent?

[00:43:15] That would be amazing. No, of course he wouldn't do the accent. Oui, oui. Uh, but Hitchcock instead wanted Swiss actor Frederick because, uh, Frederick Stafford, because he wanted to turn him. I'm going to leave this for pause. Into the new Cary Grant. Ooh. Ooh.

[00:43:37] I mean, firstly, I can't escape the gravitational pull of saying the following, which is, uh, anyway, that's the end of Topash. Pretty good. Pretty good. I'll take it. Um, and, uh, ultimately I would guess the experiment ended with this film too for this chap. He did work more, but yeah, he was not a, uh, exploding star after this movie. I actually could, like, physically and visually, he's a pleasing chap to look at.

[00:44:06] Not a problem at all. I could see that sort of matinee idol in him. That's perfectly fine. But he lacks any of the charm. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so, yeah, this movie, um, you know, the production doesn't seem like it was that bumpy other than, like, the script issues. But in terms of, like, complications, not so much. However, when they got towards the end, uh, they were going to be filming a big duel finale. I don't know if you guys watched the alternate ending. I've seen them a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:36] Okay. So they were going to be shooting that. And, um, Alfred Hitchcock's wife, Alma, was sick. So he actually left and handed the reins over to associate producer Herbert Coleman, who finished the big duel finale, which is maybe why it's a little flat when you see it. Um, and the duel, when they showed it to test, uh, test audiences, they just laughed at it. They thought it was a joke. Well, there's a line in the alternate ending. Um, I think they asked Picard, which I just love the name.

[00:45:04] Um, when was the last time we had a duel in France? And you'd expect it to be, like, a hundred years ago. He's like, no, it was, like, five years. You're like, oh, okay. So this is a serious thing that you're doing. That really stood out to me as well, because I thought that that was going to, at first I thought, oh, is that a joke that she thinks that, oh, the last one was ages ago. But then she doesn't really react to it. And it's kind of like, oh, because four or five years doesn't seem like that long ago, actually.

[00:45:30] Um, but yeah, no, it's, um, it's certainly, of the endings that there are, and I think you can see them, I think they've been included fairly religiously on all of the DVDs, Blu-rays, 4Ks of Topaz. Of the available endings, it is the one that feels, ugh, cinematic is the wrong word. Um, climactic, I don't know, like, it feels like it's, it is a big ending of something. There is a crescendo of sorts. Yeah, it's a, you know, it's a bit of action, I guess.

[00:46:00] It's a bit of a sort of a jolt of excitement or an attempt at that. So I, I appreciate it on that level in a way that I don't think the other endings have that kind of, the other endings, the movie just kind of stops. Whereas that, it feels like, oh, this is kind of a climax, even though it's not terribly exciting. Yeah, and that scrapped ending, uh, the duel was actually, like, just stored at Hitchcock's, like, stuff, basically at his house. Yeah.

[00:46:28] And it was thought lost forever, and it was his daughter discovered it later down the road and handed it over for preservation. So that's why we all have access to it now. Crazy, isn't it? And I will add, it's on, it's on YouTube currently, if you want to go hunt them and you haven't got the home media. Although I would recommend always buying home media. Yeah. Yep. And this was Hitch's third flop in a row after Marnie and Torn Curtain. Um, it had a budget of $4 million and it earned $3 million. So, not a success story.

[00:46:59] Uh, the top three for the year. Number one was Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Number two was The Love Bug, the Disney film, the first Herbie adventure. And number three was Midnight Cowboy, really showing where Hollywood is going with that one. And, um, just the final note. Hitchcock would only make two more films after this. He would have Frenzy in 1972, which would be a hit and a return to form for him.

[00:47:22] And also, taking what he does best and applying it to where the 70s cinema is going, where it's edgier, it's darker, it's more violent. Um, but also keeping what makes him special. And then his last film was 1976's Family Plot. Uh, and he died in 1980 at the age of 80. I note you didn't say Family Plot was a hit. It was, I think, a middle-of-the-road performer. Um, Family Plot's a weird one. Um, I'd like to revisit it.

[00:47:52] I've only seen it once. But I remember watching and kind of going, Huh. Didn't dislike it, but it was like a... It's really strange. Particularly following on from Frenzy, which, as you say, does feel like a real return to form for Hitchcock. And it's basically, you know, it has a lot in common with The Lodger, which is a silent movie, which was, I think it was his third film overall, but it was the film that sort of got him noticed and had a lot of the sort of key Hitchcock themes that would reoccur throughout his career.

[00:48:20] And in a way, The Lodger and Frenzy feel like such a perfect, like, bookend to his career, in a lot of ways. And then there's Family Plot, which is this slightly sort of family-friendly, slightly madcap comedy thriller kind of thing with very low production values. It's quite odd. Um, but Frenzy's amazing. I love Frenzy. It also feels like it's a movie with a cast, because it's Bruce Dern and Karen Black, who are, like, two stars of the 70s.

[00:48:48] And it just feels like Hitchcock's dabbling now with actors who are very of their time in material that doesn't feel like it's that kind of revolutionary 1970s stuff. Yeah, like, William Devane's in it, and then, um, ah, uh, I can't remember the actress's name. She was in the original Freaky Friday with, uh, Jodie Foster, where she played the mum. Um, I can't remember her name now, but, uh... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:49:14] Yeah, but it is, like, yeah, compared with, particularly with, um, with Topaz, which, um... I mean, Cam, did that come up much in your research about Hitchcock being kind of, uh, not enjoying the experience on Torn Curtain with Julie Andrews and Paul Newman so much that this was a bit of sort of, like, uh, uh, you know, an overcorrection that he was like... Because John Forsythe is probably the only name on this cast list that I think people at the time would have had any familiarity with.

[00:49:41] Yeah, because John Vernon hadn't really blown up yet. Um, he would with Animal House. Right. But that's, like, almost a decade later. Mm. Um, so, yeah, I think that... I mean, Bond fans would have known Karen Doerr from You Only Live Twice. But, yeah, it's not, like, a high-wattage cast. And, uh, yeah, it was really Newman. Him and Newman did not get along because of Newman's method approach. Mm. Mm.

[00:50:07] So I think he was kind of like, I don't care for this, so I'm gonna go to these, you know, kind of newer actors who don't have maybe the clout to try to push me around. Yeah. I read somewhere as well that a part of it, you know, Paul Newman and Julie Andrews, particularly at that time, you know, in history, were very expensive. Uh, whereas this cast in particular, with it being so big and sprawling, keep the costs down, don't have any terribly big stars in there.

[00:50:34] But, goddammit, like, the cast is so sprawling that I would have appreciated some stars at a few, you know, a few points so that I knew I would know who to pay attention to. Because sometimes you're in a room with all these people, it's like, I don't know who's important here, and, um, having watched the movie, I'm not quite sure I know who's important. We'll have to run a poll, I think, like, who is the main character of this film? Let us know in the comments below. Um, well, let's, let's comment. Let's do it.

[00:51:03] Calvin, you've waited, I think, we're coming up to our seventh year now, close to seven years to talk about Topaz, to have your online therapy session with us. So, the chair is yours. Share your feelings on Topaz. Well, as I said, I think it is a bit of a mixed bag, because I do sort of want to pivot to talking about some of the sequences that I think are actually really good in this film.

[00:51:26] And I'm curious to see if you guys agree with me, like, particularly with the, um, the opening, where we are following this, uh, family, this, um, uh, he's a Soviet intelligence officer. Um, Q, uh, pronunciation-wise, Kusnov? Kusnov? I'm not, I'm not the person to come to for pronunciation. Kusnov, I think it's Kusnov. Um, he was very Frexy.

[00:51:54] But him and his wife and young daughter are in the process of defecting to the West, and the whole kind of, like, the first, like, 15 minutes of the movie or so, there are some lines at a certain point from John Forsyth. It almost works as a silent movie, where it's these characters just trying to lose the, these agents that are tailing them, and they're having to do it in public. They're sort of, like, going there, you know, in between trams and stuff to try, they're going into it on a museum tour at a certain point.

[00:52:25] Um, all that stuff, I think is, like, pretty classic Hitchcock stuff. It's really good suspense. There's bits where the characters are slightly cornered, and then the, uh, people that are, um, uh, following them, um, appear out of nowhere. There's a couple of good jolts in it.

[00:52:42] I think that it's, um, a really, to be honest, if the entire film was just about that family, like, moving forward, I think I would have been kind of happy with that, because I think it's, it sets up an interesting human problem, you know. And I, I think the fact that the mother and father seem so jaded, there's this lovely, relatively incidental bit that I, has always really stood out to me when they eventually get to the West.

[00:53:08] And the young daughter, she's very excited about seeing the White House, and she sees the Capitol building, and she's, oh, is that the White House? And the guy driving the car says something, oh no, we'll point it out when we get there. And then, again, there's a very incidental thing, but just how she's, you know, sort of smiling and keen and interested in this sort of exciting new life, and her parents look quite jaded. It seems like they kind of, there's an innocence to her and not to them.

[00:53:34] I think it sets up this really interesting human dynamic, human drama between them. And then they disappear for the rest of the movie, and we never really get any serious kind of resolution. But I'm curious to know from you guys, like, what you think of that opening, and if it hooked you as much as it did me. Scott, particularly on a first-time watch, I can't imagine going, like, you must assume, oh, well, these are the main characters. Or, you know, they're going to be throughout the film.

[00:54:01] I can only assume that's what you make of it at first. I think my fourth note is, sorry, who's the main character? I think that was around about the time that they were being debriefed. But to your question, did I enjoy that first sequence? It's one of my likes. And I think when I was watching the film, and after having known Torn Curtain game before this, and just thinking, oh, okay, Hitchcock's cooking again. He's got the tension going.

[00:54:30] I'm kind of edge of my seat here. Are they going to get away? Are they not? And then the rest of the film happens. And there are a couple of other nice moments I want to touch on. There are things I do like about this film. It is not a disaster by any stretch of the imagination. But to your question, yes, I think that was probably the high watermark of the film. I have another one that's high. But, yeah, it's a movie that on my revisit, I was like, it's sort of this interesting collection of pieces that I enjoy.

[00:54:59] And I said that, like, my take on it was different this time. And it was. The first time, honestly, if you would have asked me prior to rewatching the movie to tell you about moments in Topaz, I would have had, like, a blank stare on my face. Very little I would have remembered. More than usual. Well, yes. I would have remembered Karen Doerr's death with the purple dress draping outwards like blood. That's what I would have remembered. Beyond that, I think I would have just stared at you.

[00:55:28] I wouldn't have been able to answer any real questions. And it was funny when I was rewatching it yesterday and we got to, you know, classic Cuban actor John Vernon as, like, a Cuban general. I was suddenly like, that's what movie this was? Like, that suddenly all came back and I was like, it was this movie where I saw that? And so it's a movie that on my rewatch, though, I found myself appreciating a lot of parts. You know, Calvin mentions that intro.

[00:55:58] I had the same reaction. That entire, like, factory sequence where they're going through and you see, like, the ornate designs of the statues. And then, like, the two goons trailing the family throughout the way they split up and have the daughter going off on her own. That stuff is great. There's a few sequences like that through the movie. And I think in just, like, just in that little micro scene there, you know, like, the daughter dropping the statue to cause a distraction to go out of the room to make a phone call. Yeah. That was part of an agreed plan. And you're like, oh, this is some good tradecraft here.

[00:56:28] This is really interesting. I like that. Yeah. And, like, the way there's that escape and it's, like, a real, like, hairy escape where the daughter gets hit by a bicycle and the agent, Mike, has to, like, go back and get her. Stuff like that is really cool. I don't think she deserved to be picked up. That was, like, a weak hit by the bike. That's some Darwinian stuff there. She should have just been left behind. Having been to Copenhagen, I felt for her because, damn it, they are menaces on their bikes in that place. There are bicycles everywhere. My brother lives there. Right.

[00:56:58] I know exactly where they were standing in that roundabout. I know where the department store was. I know all of it. And I'm watching it like this is cool from that lens of knowing Copenhagen very well. But, yeah, like, you watch out for cyclists in Copenhagen. They will come at you. They have their own, like, lanes in major roads. Not just, like, little cycle lanes, but big, wide lanes. Oh, yeah. No, totally. It was interesting seeing that. It's like, oh, wow, this has been, yeah, a thing since the 60s, I guess. It's just part of the culture there, I suppose. I had that experience in Europe. Not in Copenhagen, but, like, here in Vancouver.

[00:57:28] If you walk on a bike lane, it's no big deal. Like, chances are you're not going to get run down by bicycles. Cam is just out there throwing, like, twigs into the bicycles to try and knock them over. Try to put them through the spokes like in Indiana Jones. Yeah. But, no, it's just not that uncommon for, hey, if it's, like, you know, traffic on one side of the sidewalk, just walk across the bike lane. You're fine. But I remember when I was in Europe, my friend Tony's like, you were going to get yourself killed. What are you doing? And I'm like, what do you mean? There's no one around. He's like, doesn't matter.

[00:57:57] Just stay off the bike lane. And I was like, huh? Well, who knew? Who knew? There's one outside the train station I work at. I don't work at a train station. I work next to a train station. And there's a very particular one where a lot of accidents happen. And it's a very long walking phase outside of the station. And at least once a day, I will see people almost get here, either going home or getting lunch or something. But it's also a lot of them just skip the red lights, which I think is also like they really

[00:58:26] want to take their life into their own hands with that. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, this just turned into Scott's anti-cyclist corner. I'm shoving things into the spokes. I'm chaos. But yeah, just in terms of a collection of sequences, I think there's a lot to entertain in Topaz. The problem is, and I feel like we'll all come down on a very similar note, which is

[00:58:49] like the pacing and assembly of these into a two hour and 20 minute story is really rough. Really rough. And I was actually like chuckling to myself after the movie. I was thinking like, it would be amazing. I've been listening to the Slash film cast for a long time. It's now just called the film cast. But they've been getting letters from university professors who teach film classes and just talking about how they cannot get their students to sit through a movie anymore because they

[00:59:19] just have short attention spans. They don't want to. And it's just become a struggle. And several teachers that they've heard from have actually quit the profession because they just got too frustrated. Wow. And I was thinking like, you should have the Topaz challenge where like to get a passing grade, a student, a 20 year old student, 19 year old student has to sit through Topaz beginning to end. I think that's a genius idea. Yeah. This is the movie to test people's attention spans. God.

[00:59:50] Or it might turn an entire generation off of cinema. Well, maybe, maybe. Or Hitchcock. God forbid. Or Hitchcock. Yeah. Well, you know, it isn't too long after the opening that my main problem with the film, which, you know, is Frederick Stafford, Devereaux, who, you know, he's top build. Sorry, Calvin. Sure. I think you mispronounced it. It's Stifford. Is it? He puts the stiff. No, not really.

[01:00:19] Oh, very good. Very good. Took a moment for the penny to drop there. But yes. Nice. Nice. I like that. Well, this is actually what I was mulling over during some of his scenes where my mind was wandering as he was talking. But I was kind of like, is it a lack of star power that I'm missing? Or is it just a general lack of charisma? And he could just be an actor. I know this actor from nothing else.

[01:00:43] But transplanting someone with at least an ounce of sort of watchability of charisma, maybe I would have been a bit more engaged with this because as soon as the film kind of pivots to him, and as I say, he's top build. I believe his character is the main character. But he does become just a bit of a kind of observer through far more interesting things, particularly for the first two thirds, which I think is an interesting...

[01:01:11] There are some lovely set pieces. I think the opening is great. There's a whole chunk in Harlem, which I think is really interesting, where he's stood outside watching from across the road. And then there's a load of quite interesting stuff happens in Cuba, I think. Again, he's back at the ranch, not actually getting involved in the nitty gritty. And I think a big part of my problem with it is that we have a main character who, for

[01:01:37] the most part, doesn't really engage in the actual spycraft, even though he is supposed to be the lead in this thing. It's other characters that are doing stuff and getting into these tense situations. And he's having these dangerous moments. And he's just kind of at the background, sort of gliding through and having interactions, of course. But, you know, there seems like in the Harlem bit, we are seeing a lot of it through his perspective. There's a great sequence.

[01:02:04] I think, again, it sort of works as a silent movie where he's across the road and he's watching his contact, who's waiting for a guy to come down in the lift. And then he has a conversation with him. And we do not hear their dialogue at all. It's just that classic Hitchcock thing of you can follow it, you know exactly what's happening, but you don't hear a word. And I think that's so brilliant. But then, you know, that whole sequence occurs and is great. And then we're back with Frederick Stifford for, you know, another 10 minutes where he's just very dull.

[01:02:33] But yeah, I think he is my problem with the whole thing, the main character. Sorry, one more thing and then I'll shut up about this. But again, just from like a human interest kind of dynamic that is so underutilized in this. A big part of the film is his main character, Devereaux. He's got a wife. They've got a daughter who's newly married. And I think that that is an interesting family sort of dynamic that they're joining their daughter on her. I think they are joining her on a honeymoon, aren't they?

[01:03:02] Which seems like a bit of a buzzkill. But I wrote that down. I would not go on my honeymoon with my parents. Yeah, no, right. I couldn't figure out why the son-in-law looked about the same age as the father. Right? They treat him like he's this like 18 year old at certain points. It's like, wait, you look like exactly the same age. You look like contemporaries. But again, and I think that that is an interesting potential sort of core, you know, human interest element to this thing that is just completely underutilized.

[01:03:33] And ultimately, yeah, it comes down to character, I suppose. I think there's just a general lack of character through line, you know, in terms of an emotional journey. There's characters that pop up every now and then that have an interesting thing. Anyway, I've waffled far too much there. What do you guys think? I want to give my two cents, but I also want to jump off a point that Calvin said. And this is really where my notes go into. I sort of, in my notes, it's like a psychosis. I'm writing about this so much.

[01:04:01] You talk about like a lack of charisma, a lack of star power, perhaps for this chap. It's everything. He is the complete package of the anti-lead. And I was thinking about like, when have we seen this before? And I realized that this same year we had a similar circumstance. And that is on Her Majesty's Secret Service. Ah.

[01:04:26] The difference, the difference is that on Her Majesty's Secret Service has confident filmmakers around and a confident cast around George Lazenby. So you don't notice the faults and the lack of skill, perhaps lack of experience. I won't go firing guns at George Lazenby here. He did the best he could with what he had. And that's why I think On Her Majesty's is a successful film, ultimately because of the people around George.

[01:04:54] This is an example of when you haven't got that safety net. This is George Lazenby in a bad film. And that's what we've ended up here. You've got an unconfident lead. I'm not sure unconfident's a word. Inconfident. Non-confident. He lacks confidence. There isn't any confidence. I'm not confident in my own word. Anticonfident. Anticonfident. He is the anti-confidence. But the filmmaking around him is lacking in confidence too.

[01:05:23] Hitchcock is clearly not invested in the material. None of the other characters are particularly like shining. There's one chap I will call out when we get to likes. I think does a good job of what he's given. And we'll get to that. But I think this is really an example of terrible casting and a script that lacks any sort of like... No one believes in it. So no one's really pushing it.

[01:05:47] And so no one in this whole film believes or is in love with what they're doing. And it's all just for the point of doing a Hitchcock film. And that is... You can smell it everywhere. Because if this film was done by any other director, I would have been less angry at the end. But because this film's an Alfred Hitchcock at the start, I have expectations. I can't help having expectations. They're great.

[01:06:16] And unfortunately, I was... Frustrated is a word you both used very early on. Especially when you both talked about the first time you saw this film. Frustrated is definitely the word I left this with. But it was also sad. Like, I just think he could have been doing other things at this time that are far more memorable. And this is his third to last film. What an absolute shame and waste of talent. And so you've just got this blob of very long beige.

[01:06:48] Which, incidentally, was my Tinder handle back in the day. But where did that one come from? So, yeah. I just... But the Lazenby thing, I couldn't shake. Cam's going up on that one. No? Okay, fine. But the Lazenby thing, yeah. It was a lot of left. It was a lot of left. Hey, I married someone off of Tinder, so it worked for me in the end. But that Lazenby thing should stay with me. Yeah.

[01:07:17] And I guess it's also like Lazenby, while he's limited as an actor, they gave him a lot of physical action to do. Where you go, that's impressive. You know, him on the ice sliding. You know, ducking down to throw the knife. That's like a physicality you'd never really seen Connery exhibit, truly. And it was kind of exciting. Whereas, like, the problem here is... And I was trying to put my finger on it. Because we've seen this kind of thing before with Hitchcock.

[01:07:46] And I think of Rear Window. That's Jimmy Stewart observing things for like two hours straight. Right? He's really not involved until the very end when he's being attacked in his suite. Um, but Jimmy Stewart is a movie star. He has a face that pulls you in when he's seeing something. So does Grace Kelly, for that matter, as well. Um, and I think the problem here is... You have, like, you know, Stafford here.

[01:08:14] Um, he doesn't have that support. If you look at his filmography, he's worked... He was in one of the OSS films, actually. Um, but he's not someone with, like, this dense filmography. He's not considered, like, the actor's actor. And a lot of this movie is... Him having to respond to Hitchcock sequences he can't see. And you don't have that level of just staring at a movie star's face throughout.

[01:08:41] And that would cover a lot of ground in terms of the... Kind of the divorce between blank shots of him. And then, you know, like, Roscoe Lee Brown going on. And having, like, that really cool adventure where he's, like, breaking into, like, the hotel. And meeting someone. Like, that stuff's interesting and involving. But then you cut back to, you know, Stafford just staring like a corpse. He stood outside that building for a long time as well. Just in that same spot.

[01:09:10] Just there's a lot going on in that hotel. And he's just stood there, just looking up. So, okay. From, like, a tradecraft point of view. Dreadful. Absolutely dreadful. I'm going to watch my mark in front of the building where he's doing his job. Like, I mean, go around the corner at least and get a coffee and sit down in a cafe and watch or something. What are you doing? You're walking a dog. Something. Yeah. I mean, it'd be a lot of walking back and forth on the same road. Maybe that dog really likes that strip. Who knows? Maybe. But I think you make a great point there, Cam, in that it's...

[01:09:39] Like, he doesn't even have the action. He's not even involved in... You can't point to, like, a cool, like, suspenseful set piece that he was, you know, a big part of or at the center of or anything. Because all of the interesting stuff in the film is involving other characters. And I think maybe that's why I do have a soft spot for the duel ending. Because it at least gives him, like, something. He has a gun in his hand at, you know, one point. And it's like, oh... But he doesn't do it. Yeah, no, he doesn't even get to shoot.

[01:10:09] It's not even him to shoot. It's a guy in the stands. No, he's a really impotent leading man for a spy. And, you know, I appreciate that a part of Hitchcock's M.O. with this might well have been to do a realistic, you know, spy scenario or whatever. But I don't think that that should be an excuse for, yeah, just being a bit dull. You know, I mean, we've seen realistic spy, you know, Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy Springs to mind immediately. As sort of a more, sort of, like, grounded thing.

[01:10:38] But Alec Guinness in that, you know, TV series in particular is just so captivating. Wind the clock back just a few years. If we're talking Le Carre, you had the spy who came from the cult. Ah, of course. Yeah, yeah, you're quite right. Yeah. Yeah. And Deadly Affairs around this time, too. And Deadly Affairs not regarded as one of the all-time great Le Carre films. But it does... Hipcrest Fial is there. Hipcrest Fial. It does, like, quote-unquote, boring espionage. I think much more interestingly than this movie does.

[01:11:07] Like, this is trying to do the stuff that you see in Tinker Tailor or Deadly Affair or Hipcrest Fial to a degree. But it just doesn't involve you. You don't feel kind of sucked into that world. Well, you've got Michael Caine, Richard Burton, James Mason. Uh-huh. Yeah. And then Guinness, of course, later on in those miniseries. Yeah. But, you know, this jewel must have some shine to it.

[01:11:37] Let's talk about the things that did work for Topaz. So, Calvin, I'll put you on the spot. Something else you liked about Topaz? Uh, well, should we talk about Karen Dore? Because, you know, we're all Bond geeks. So, you know, Karen Dore from You and Live Twice, Helga Brandt. I love her. Yeah. Almost unrecognizable as well without the red hair, which I believe that it was a wig or it was dyed for You and Live Twice, right?

[01:12:05] Like, her natural color was brunette, I think. Yeah, there's some production stills and I think some publicity images of her with brown hair. Ah, right. Okay. For You and Live Twice. But she's sort of the center of this Cuban episode, basically, where Frederick Stafford goes to Cuba and we spend, you know, about 20 minutes, half an hour of the movie there. And our main couple are French, so obviously they're both having affairs.

[01:12:34] They've both got sexual interest in other people and Karen Dore is his, you know, former flame mistress. You know, however you want to square it. I wrote down his piece of revolutionary Cuban ass. Nice. You know what?

[01:12:55] I think she gives a great performance that I wish was in a better movie, particularly in the scene where she and Devereaux are saying goodbye to each other and she's got tears coming down her face. And I think, oh, wow, she's really great in this moment. I wish that she had someone to play against or I wish I was invested in their romance in any way. But unfortunately, I'm not.

[01:13:22] She does have, and Cam, you mentioned it earlier on, if there's anything iconic about Topaz, it's the shot of her dying and she falls to the ground and the purple dress that she has sort of flows out. It's, you know, a sort of visual metaphor for the blood coming out of it kind of thing. And I think they, am I right in this, Cam? Did it come up in the behind the scenes thing? They were like grips, like off camera, I think.

[01:13:47] They attached like little fishing wire or something to her dress and then they pulled it as she went down so that it kind of flowers out the way it does. It's quite a beautiful shot. I think it's lovely. Yeah, it's like that is a moment where you just see that pure Hitchcock imagination. Yeah. And you're like, if this movie had the same pace, same actors and all that, but he was just hitting you with moments like that every couple minutes, I think Topaz's reputation would be a lot better. But like that moment really does stand out.

[01:14:16] And with her performance, it's like that entire Cuba sequence really does kind of work. It's like No Time to Die. Cuba is where it's at. That's where the movie suddenly explodes to life. You're like, hey, give me more of the Cuba stuff. Because like that's where the notorious element comes into where she is also seeing John Vernon's Cuban general character. There is that kind of conflict going back and forth.

[01:14:43] You had that great scene, I thought, where there's the dinner sequence between her and Devereux. And then, you know, Rico Parra comes in and sits down at the table. And it's just like you can feel actual tension between characters, which is a rarity in Topaz where you go, oh, wow, how's this going to end?

[01:15:02] And even the way her story finishes, and I think great performance too, that moment in her death scene, which is kind of like a mercy killing where like, you know, Rico is telling her all the things they're going to do to her if she's caught as a traitor. And we've seen an example of that earlier where two of her helpers in, I thought, a really good sequence where they're given away by seagulls. Hitchcock had it out for the birds at this time in his life. But like you see what happened to them.

[01:15:32] And there's that horrifying shot of the two of them like laying on the benches. And then you have Rico saying what's going to happen to her. And we've seen it. And so like that dread is really built in. And then her death. And it's like this is the sort of stuff that is like A-level Hitchcock material where I go, Topaz, every now and again, it has a stealth moment that just completely bowls you over. You just wish there was more of them. But that section and Karen Doerr, it's great stuff.

[01:16:00] I do love that moment where you see the Picnicur characters, the two that go and then they're captured, of course. And then you see them where they're being held. And it's just she's like slumped with her back up against the wall and her husband's like draped over her lap kind of thing. Just look at it. It's like it's really horrifying that, you know, she's just got this completely vacant, like dead-eyed stare. And then, you know, when she whispers a really effective moment. I think it's lovely. And I love that whole Picnic bit as well.

[01:16:28] It's again, it's another highlight of the film that doesn't include a leading character. But just as like a little episode, I thought that worked really well. What do you think, Scott, about the whole Cuba bit? Was it drawing you in? Well, I'm confused, firstly, because I seem to recall that it went to like a dead screen. I just saw my own face looking despondent and sad. And then your dress draped out around you.

[01:16:55] Yeah, I thought that's as it does. As it does. As you collapse slowly to the ground. That was when Topaz ended. Yeah. No, I think in terms of sequences, there's three major bits I enjoy with this film. One was the defection. Two was this. And there's a third one that I want to bring up as my like. But I think it actually gets a pulse for about 20 minutes. And you're like, oh, something's going on here.

[01:17:23] And you've got other characters have brought in some liveliness that have come over from the Harlem section as well. So you've got a little bit of connective tissue there. There's some good, again, I keep using the word tradecraft in this episode, like it's the word of the week. But again, there's some interesting stuff for that. There's like the typewriter with everything hidden in it. That was great. Like you don't see that every day. The razor. The razor. Also good. So yeah, I really enjoyed that sequence. And I think Karen Dore was spectacular. I think she's great in You Only Live Twice.

[01:17:51] And I think it's actually a shame I've only seen her in so few things. Because this says to me, I probably should seek out more of her work. Yeah, she had a disadvantage with You Only Live Twice because everyone just kind of goes, well, it's the kind of lesser Luciana Paluzzi and Thunderball character. But, you know, you can see here that she had a lot to offer as an actress. I want to just take us over to my other like, which is the Harlem section. Generally speaking, I think it was fun.

[01:18:18] But specifically the actor who plays Philip Dubois, which is sort of his lead in that era. Roscoe Lee Brown. He's great. Yeah, he is absolutely fantastic. He's like he's in a different film. And I just want to point out for longtime Spy Hearts fans, he was also in Jumping Jack Flash. I remembered that. Oh, was he? Okay. I don't know why I remembered that, but I did. But he reminds me of tying back to Torn Curtain.

[01:18:47] There is that character whose name escapes me right at the end when they're trying to escape on the bus and they get off the bus. And there's this lady who wants to get into America or whatever it is. And she's got this whole like mini arc in the film. And she's spectacular. And it's like, oh, this comes to life. And then she's wheeled off by the Nazis or by the Russians or whoever the villain is in Torn Curtain. I think it's the Russians. But again, this is the exact same sort of thing here. Like he comes in. The pulse goes up. You're like, oh, this is fun. He's got a smile on his face. He's cheeky chappy.

[01:19:17] And it's great. And you also get that little bit, which is a thing Hitchcock has done before. But the use of obscuring sound, which I like when it's used. It's used a couple of times in this film. I think it was first used by him in North by Northwest. But it might have been prior to that. We also saw it in Torn Curtain. Yeah. The scene where it's Julie Andrews and Paul Newman up on a hill and the people down below observing them. Yeah. But I liked it in like a florist freezer, which I didn't realize florists had freezers. Yeah. Yeah. Coolers. Yeah. There you go.

[01:19:47] Enjoyed that. But I just think he was great. I think it was a great performance there. That sequence, there's like a grittiness to it that I really enjoy. And it's Hitchcock trying to kind of figure out where movies are going. That sequence feels like the 70s to me. Like that feels like him dabbling with where movies are going. And, you know, there wasn't a lot of diversity in Hitchcock cast. This feels like, again, what you're going to see more of in the 1970s. And to have Roscoe Lee Brown taking front and center throughout this whole section is great.

[01:20:16] And I thought this was where the most tension came from. Him going up and down those hallways. There was a sense of danger. There's the bit where he gets out of the elevator. And there's the sign that says elevator out of order. And it's like very prominent in the frame. And it almost feels like it's setting you up that something horrible is going to happen with an elevator at some point. I don't know if he's going to get thrown through the open elevator doors or something. But it was like these little bits of information.

[01:20:39] And the fact that like this unruly hallway with all these like Cuban military guys and women probably of the night who are there with them. And it's just like what is going on? You see the way that like Rico was just laying waste to his hotel room with like burgers thrown all over the place and beer bottles. And you're like this is chaos. What is going to come of this? The way they build up that whole red suitcase stuff is classic MacGuffin.

[01:21:06] And when it has Roscoe Lee Brown take a bail out the balcony. I was like glorious. Like there is an energy and a grittiness to that whole sequence that is just absent through the rest of the movie. It really does feel like he takes it over. And I feel like remind me Calvin because it's been a little bit for me. But I feel like a little more of that energy is in frenzy. Oh totally. Yeah. I know that gritty kind of I completely agree with you.

[01:21:33] It's that like 20 minute episode in Harlem. Like it feels like a boiling pot. It feels like you know you could maybe just set a whole movie in that hotel with these characters. And what's the rally the protest outside and then what's going on inside. It's just chaos. And it's this really you know interesting setting and collection of characters. But you know exactly as you say as well.

[01:22:01] I think Hitchcock was probably trying to tap into some you know social commentary perhaps. In a way that he hadn't done previously. Well this is also very shortly after the civil rights movement in America as well. So to be putting Roscoe Lee Brown front and center for this section. This is a new thing for Hitchcock. Oh totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you get not the racial politics or themes in Frenzy.

[01:22:30] But that sort of the grittiness I think. Like the bit where he picks up the there's like a burger that's been on a document. And he takes up the burger and it's just got this grease on it. And then he has to like wipe it off. And then he starts reading it. It's just one of those like really like gross like gritty but quite real thing. It doesn't feel Hollywood. That's not like a Hollywood moment. I can't imagine Cary Grant would have done such a thing. Or James Mason in North by Northwest 10 years prior to this. It's just one of those like oh it feels really real and gritty.

[01:23:00] And there's more of that in Frenzy I think for sure. Yeah. So maybe this was yeah laying the groundwork for that. Because I do think of Torn Curtain as a very sort of like old school Hollywood in you know in terms of presentation like that. When that grittiness is sort of seeping in a bit here in Frenzy in Topaz. Now I'm kind of left up a creek here because you guys have taken basically my likes.

[01:23:26] So I'm gonna say I actually really like the last line. Oh. The I am actually a fan. So maybe that's interesting that I'm gonna raise this as a like. Because you know the whole like anyway that's the end of Topaz. I like when Hitchcock does a really punchy ending. And we see that throughout his work. You know the train going through the tunnel in North by Northwest is a classic one. The car being pulled out of the water at the end of Psycho.

[01:23:54] There's something to me fun about this in a way that it acknowledges sort of the absurdities of espionage. Where you see you know this was a Jacques character getting on the or was it Francois I think was actually. No Francois was the son-in-law Jacques was the traitor Jacques was the mole. But you have Jacques getting on the plane and just kind of waving. And it's this sense of just like the sides are always changing. Things are net. There's no justice in this world. That's the end of Topaz.

[01:24:24] What can you do? I actually think that's really funny and points out some absurdities. Does it match the often kind of leaden movie you've watched for two and a half hours? No. But I actually really like that ending. I think it's a very punchy funny way to end a movie. It's good you know for the avoidance of doubt. It's like well that that is the end of the film. Like yeah. I know what you mean. I think it's I think there is something.

[01:24:53] And I think this was one of the reasons why that ending didn't go down well in certain places. Because essentially the main villain gets off scot-free. And yes he's going to you know he's getting the one plane over to the Soviet Union. The heroes are getting their plane to America and that's kind of it. But how he gets on and he just sort of like you know tips his hat or something like that. Yeah it's sort of similar to towards the end of Fiori's Only where it's all been about the A-Tack and then Bond throws it off a cliff.

[01:25:21] And him and the Soviet general General Gogol are just like well that's that. You don't have it. I don't have it. Well okay. But it works in that scenario I think because you have another main villain that already has been sort of taken out. And you've had that confrontation. Whereas with Topaz I feel like it's just a bit oh I didn't think this was that movie that was going to end with a bit of a shrug of like well that's Chinatown kind of thing. And you know that's just the way it is.

[01:25:49] It didn't feel like it was you know and I suppose it wasn't building up to that originally because it was building up to the duel originally. Yeah. Yeah it does feel very like kind of in keeping with a lot of the Cold War stuff going on at that point. Because I think of also Ice Station Zebra. Remember where there's the big conflict. And then it just ends with the two of them being like well I guess I'll see you another time. That's that. You know. I like the energy and the sort of idea of well this is the reality of it. Like they're getting away.

[01:26:18] What I don't like is the line. Like I feel like if you saw him get on the plane and then you see Devereaux go what a shame. Or something like that. Some sort of reaction to give you like an idea that something he's displeased with it. I mean I'm not a writer. I'm not saying that's what they have to do. But the fact that he then almost mugs the camera and goes well that's the end of Topaz. I'm just waiting for like Hitchcock to like go waka waka. And then just like that's all folks.

[01:26:47] And then it just feels farcical. And for a film that is taking itself far too seriously. That's such a weird change at the end. Maybe you should have saved that cameo for the end as opposed to the wheelchair guy at the airport earlier. Oh yeah. No. One of Hitchcock's better cameos I think. Yeah. When he's in the wheelchair and then he stands up. Shakes the guy's hand and then they go walking off together. Just a silly little visual gag. I thought that was quite nice.

[01:27:17] I couldn't tell if that was like you know like in hospitals when you've had a procedure they have to wheel you out for like insurance reasons. I wasn't sure if it was kind of like that or he actually just played a joke on someone and he didn't need to be pushed. And then he was like haha sucks to be you. And walks off. I wasn't sure what the joke. I'm assuming it was the latter. We'll never know. I don't know. I laughed. That's all I know. Okay.

[01:27:47] That's all you need. Is there any more likes to discuss? You know what I particularly coming off of Torn Curtain and I believe we talked about this about how Hitchcock was really you know there was some I think of that Julie Andrews Paul Newman scene where they're having their argument and reconciling where they're up on a hill and it's supposed to be in this little park. And it couldn't obviously be a soundstage like unless you saw like the rafters or you know the lights like hanging above them.

[01:28:17] It's that obvious. And I like that in Topaz it did feel like Hitchcock was trying to get more with the times a bit and there is more location work here. And there are things like you know when the picnickers are on the hill and they're looking spying below and stuff. Things like that I was like oh yeah no he could have just wheeled out that hill that Julie Andrews and Paul Newman were on in Torn Curtain and had them on that. But he didn't. They're out in you know the open air. Obviously there is still an awful lot of set stuff in here.

[01:28:47] There's a lot of studio stuff that's masquerading as other locations. But overall I didn't feel like it was as intrusive or as in your face as it is in something like Torn Curtain. So that I thought and I think that's a nice thing also to have in an international spy romp like this. It's a spy thriller where it's sort of like oh no you do want to believe in the tactility of the locations that they're in.

[01:29:14] And I felt like I believed it a lot more here than in Torn Curtain. Yeah if you're going to make like a real world espionage style film I think you want to feel the locations and you do here. And yeah I'm reminded of that hill in Torn Curtain. It looked like the Necronomicon altar in Army of Darkness. Oh that's a good reference for it actually. I'm going to steal that. Go for it. We interrupt this program to bring you a special report.

[01:29:42] Agent we don't expect you to talk. We expect you to buy a subscription to our Patreon. Eee that's right over on the SpyHards Patreon we're covering all your favorite spy TV shows as well as popular films from the most iconic secret agent actors of all time. Cam why don't you share some intel on our latest assignment. Scott May is Star Wars month.

[01:30:08] We had May 4th of course but we also have the Mandalorian and Grogu and so we are going to celebrate not with the original trilogy but rather with the relegated to the dustbin spinoff. Solo a Star Wars story. With some distance from the box office and behind the scenes drama does Solo have at least a little bit of the force or is its hyperdrive permanently on the fritz? Tune in and find out.

[01:30:32] So Tartune your dial to patreon.com slash spyhards and spice up your podcast feed. But before Nick Knack runs out of Tabasco! Resume the spy jinx. Well okay we've done our best to shine up this topaz but unfortunately it's not looking too good.

[01:30:56] Now we have critiqued it already we have sort of dropped some of our critiques but if there's anything else to bring up this is the time to do it. And this is perhaps ironic but I'll start us off. It did not need to be as long as it was. It need to be longer right Scott? Longer. I need the uh like a four hour version. Give me the brutalist version of this.

[01:31:20] Sure or when uh Dances with Wolves won Best Picture then Kevin Costner cut it from like three hours into four hours. Did he do that? Yeah yeah if you buy like physical media copies of Dances with Wolves they're four hours. Oh I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't seem okay. It's frustrating that they don't give you the option on the disc of like watching I mean I say the shorter version it's still like over two hours long at 126 minutes but it's I feel like that would be a bit more palatable you know just chopping off that 15 minutes.

[01:31:50] I believe that that version is the version that ends with the suicide ending which is of the three endings that they that you can watch on the um well on YouTube um as Scott discovered earlier uh that that's my my least favorite of them all because it's just so obviously cobbled together of like what footage did they have you're meant to believe this one character just leaves goes home.

[01:32:12] You see a like like the grain like the film grain freezes so you just know that the film has just been like stuck and then it like really bad zoom in and then just a gunshot and then there's a strange like montage images of other characters that have died throughout the film and then it ends with Frederick Stafford just looking upset on an airplane.

[01:32:37] And that's it that's the end of Topaz in that scenario which I can't imagine is very satisfying. The film grain looks like when they zoom in on Kananga Balloon. Yes. The end of Live and Let Die or it's just like this doesn't look right like this film that's being beaten in an editing room. Yeah yeah exactly that. Yeah. I do think you could have improved that shot by just again having Alfred Hitchcock step in and be like oh.

[01:33:03] You know they actually floated that for the ending of his very last film family plot the idea that Hitchcock would actually be like there in the last scene and he would like wink at the camera and then that would have been like the last shot of the last Hitchcock film. I was joking. If I came up with that that's terrible. Maybe if he'd said cut and like that's the end that would have been nice. Oh that would have been good. Or like a pan out and then you see the soundstage and it leaves or something. Something like that. Yeah.

[01:33:29] I mean I don't think he he didn't know that was going to be his last film because he had other films he was developing so that would have been kind of fun though. Especially like a director like him. Yeah. Maybe M. Night Shyamalan can do that one when he ends his career. Also wouldn't it be like Quentin theoretically? Him too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because he has this last film. He will do it and then everyone knows that's the end. It has to be someone that's like a pure stylist where everyone kind of knows their thing. So yeah. Yeah.

[01:33:58] It peels back the camera and he's got someone's foot in his mouth and there you go. You just you do your thing Quentin. You wear your feet. You're freak proud. I mean I mentioned it's too long but I'll throw it out to the room. Calvin is there any critiques you'd like to make that we haven't already said? Oh goodness. Where to begin? No. I think that we have covered pretty much all of my critiques.

[01:34:28] I'm just scrolling through my notes to see if there was anything. Because it is one of those unfortunate instances where a lot of my issues with this can just be boiled down to Frederick Stafford unfortunately. And just how he isn't so involved in the more exciting stuff in the film. He's just a real sort of dead weight of a lead to be honest. So I think we've covered all of that.

[01:34:56] Do you have any more dislikes? I have a big one. I have a big one that I'm actually surprised hasn't come up. Which is the central antagonist who takes over the last like 50 minutes of the movie. And that is the Jacques Granville character played by Michelle Piccoli. And I... This is unforgivable to me. That this character who we know nothing about. There's no sense of...

[01:35:22] You even just have at one point an offhand mention that like... You know Andre Devereaux's wife. Who was in the resistance during the war. She was also with him. And it was like a love triangle. And it's just mentioned offhand. There's no sense of these three having any chemistry together. And then they introduce this guy basically with 50 minutes left in the movie. And are building the whole thing around will he be revealed as the mole within the French government.

[01:35:53] And it's like... No. No. You have to set this character up. We have to know something about him. And he's such a blank. And yet you spend a crazy amount of time with him. You don't even see any sort of chemistry between him and Andre. It's not like the two of them have a scene together. It's not like when Andre is going through his spy stuff in the first two hours or whatever. Hour and a half. You get a scene maybe where he's going to that guy for counsel. Getting some advice. Something. Something to show a connection. It's...

[01:36:20] This is like the classic, you know, show don't tell. And a lot of this is just telling us that this guy's important and that he's the bad guy. I also think it loses credibility a little bit when you've got your lead who, despite his flaws as an actor, is quite good looking. And so is his wife. And then she's running off to him. And I know! I know! The heart wants what the heart wants. But I mean, come on. You've got the pick of the litter in Paris.

[01:36:50] And you pick this bit of cat poo in the litter. Like, that's... Oh, no! That's a shame. Well, and you've got the other guy who I think is the economy specialist. Henry Jarre is the character's name, played by Philippe Noray. Who's the guy who has, like, the cane that he walks with. I love him because he spends most of his time eating or drinking. Yeah! But he is actually, like, interesting. Visually, he's interesting. The actor has a unique face.

[01:37:20] When you have the scenes of him, like, getting nervous about this sort of unraveling cover they have, I cared a lot more about what he was experiencing. And Hitchcock has that classic thing of shifting your sympathies to the bad guys. We saw that in Strangers on a Train, famously. And we saw it with Norman Bates as well in Psycho. And you get that a bit here, where it's like, this guy we know is not doing anything good.

[01:37:45] But when you see him getting sweaty and nervous, having that interview with Francois, I'm like, this is actually compelling. Why are we spending so much time on Jacques, who's given us nothing? I entirely agree with your point. I would rather have spent more time with him. I just... There's more shots of him eating than actually being a spy, I'd say, in this film, which is odd. But I do like... I like that, though. Yeah, it's a character trait. It's a personality thing.

[01:38:13] That whole meeting where you have Andre turning and looking to see if he's reacting, and he's eating every time. I don't know what he was eating. That did disturb me. It looked a bit weird. But it had, like, some Hitchcock suspense to it, where you're, like, waiting to see that guy react. And I think the National Board of Review really liked this movie. They gave Hitchcock Best Director. And I think they gave that guy Best Supporting Actor of the year. Who gave this to him? Was it, like...

[01:38:43] National Board of Review. Oh. Yeah, and they listed this movie as one of the ten best of 1969. Huh? Sorry, love bug. Okay. Well, it sounds like we've exhausted our dislikes. I do have a dislike, but I think I'll do it in the final notes section. So I'll take us there, and then we'll get to the knock list. So anything else, Calvin? It's been seven years. Is there anything else you want to get off your chest about Topaz?

[01:39:11] This has been very therapeutic for me, actually. I've really, genuinely, really enjoyed having this conversation. Um... So... No, I'm just going through my notes. I don't think there is anything else. It's, um... The only other note that we haven't... That I've got here is, Those sandwiches look huge and dry. Yes, that's my note! Did you notice that as well? Yes! When they're going for the picnic, and they're putting their thing in it. And it's, like, gigantic! It's, like... The bread-to-ham ratio was way off!

[01:39:40] Like, if you're looking at trying to do things undercover, if I'm going to search someone's sandwiches to check if they're a bit iffy, And I see that little slice of ham in half of a baguette, I know something's wrong. There was no butter or mayonnaise or lettuce in there to try, you know, sort of, like, freshen it up a bit. I was really sort of, um... Yeah. I worry about their digestive tract. There's no fibre in there. What are they doing? But I did enjoy just, you know, Food scenes in Hitchcock are often, you know, Something worth paying attention to. And Cam, as you said,

[01:40:10] I also really enjoy those shots where you see Frederick Staffard, like, Leaning over and trying to, you know, See what the other guy's doing. That's all really good. And I liked all the stuff in the kitchen in Cuba Where they're taking the stuff out of, like, The chicken and stuff. It's just, um... Yeah. A lot of that stuff's really nice. But, uh... Yeah, no, Topaz, it's, um... I actually knocked it down In my letterbox rating of it On this latest rewatch. I was like... Last time I was very generous.

[01:40:39] I gave it 7 out of 10, which I... I saw that. Yeah, which I think was... God knows what I was on that day. But I knocked it down I knocked it down to a far more reasonable 6 out of 10. Because it's just one of those Very frustrating experiences Where there's so much in here That's really great And then... So it just doesn't tie together And it completely goes off a cliff. I mean, I think it says a lot That, like, the main villain of the thing We discussed at the very end, you know, Because Cam, you brought him up

[01:41:08] And it's sort of like, oh, we can't go without it It's like, oh, wow, yeah, no The fact that, you know, we're talking about him Almost like he's an afterthought Just sort of speaks volumes To how kind of inconsequential That whole final third is Because I think it really does come crashing down In that final third Where it's like, wait a minute What have I... What am I supposed to be caring about anymore? But I think in the first two thirds Enough gems to keep a Hitchcock aficionado interested I would say Yeah, I would say Like, if this had been like a hundred minute movie That ended after Cuba

[01:41:37] Shortly after I actually think this movie Would have a far better reputation I think it just breaks people down Especially in that last 40 minutes Of just being like, oh, when is this going to end? So my final notes I've got a couple There's a shot at the embassy At the start of the movie Where it's like this face in a mirror You see a couple times Really cool effect Where you have the family leaving And it'll just show a shot of a mirror And there's this very like Intimidating looking face Like reflecting back

[01:42:06] I thought that was very cool Something about Francois' journalism I'm very curious about As someone who went to journalism school It never really occurred to me That I should be sketching people I'm interviewing And not actually taking any notes That seemed Because he wasn't pulling out a recorder That I could see To record anyone But he just sits there And sketches them And listens I don't know how accurate

[01:42:35] His journalism is going to be Listen, you're not You're not clued up On French journalism I understand You're not civilized Like some of us They don't talk with words They talk with pictures It's vibes journalism It's vibes And my last note I rarely watch a spy movie Where I go That would be me In the field Because usually I'm watching Bond I'm watching You know Dean Martin I'm watching all these Various super spies

[01:43:05] Or It's I'm watching like Smiley And I'm like Well that's not me Finally Finally I found my spy avatar And that is the broken man on horse Who comes out to retrieve the camera footage After the helper family had been taken away Nice Yeah I saw myself more in the guy who eats a lot And gets thrown out the window Oh dear Oh dear A sad ending I mean My only note Was going to be The

[01:43:36] Outrageous sandwiches Outrageous There will be Many pictures of those sandwiches Online this week But I did note down That's all I'm posting about Wait did you say There's going to be many photos this week Of the sandwiches Just remember folks What happened in that Rebecca Ferguson Episode It was about Rogue Nation But turned into a Rebecca Ferguson chat And there was There was More pictures of her feet Than I probably should have posted that week But hey ho That That just happened I don't judge

[01:44:06] You shouldn't either Feet Sandwiches All of it's non-judgmental Subs Foot Foot Foot long You know Oh I mean Very good It's there It's there The only other thing I had Was Some of this was happening In or around Martinique That was a nation That was involved in this And in my head I was like Wait isn't that the made up place In Live and Let Die I then realised that's Sandmonique But I did just kind of like Oh yeah

[01:44:35] That's funny And then I mean And also the fun Harlem connection To Live and Let Die There as well Yeah Yeah Interesting Hitchcock did that A little bit before Hmm Um Well It's finally time for Non-list Non-list Non-list Non-list Non-list Non-list Non-list Non-list Non-list Non-list To pick a side The non-list The need to see Official classics Despite Hard's Canon Calvin

[01:45:05] You've had a good run On this show So far Yeah Um I mean Goldfinger was your first appearance And you got that on there Oh yeah So You can't get You can't get much better Yeah Yeah And also The Man Who Knew Too Much The remake Made it on the list as well Yeah Yeah So you've got a Hitchcock on there You've done alright But Now Topaz It's its time Can Can Topaz After this one hour and 45 minute Evisceration We've just served it Can Topaz Make the knock list

[01:45:34] You get the first vote sir Uh Unfortunately not Uh And I don't think This is going to be a controversial take I don't think you're going to get Lots of Angry emails And letters from people Who Frustrated that it Didn't make it on Assuming I'm predicting Where you two are going to vote Um Correctly Maybe it'll surprise me I don't know Um But Um No Unfortunately not I mean It's in that sort of space Where it's kind of like Is this even recommendable

[01:46:04] To anyone Who isn't just a bit of an Alfred Hitchcock geek And it's just kind of like An interesting Insight into where He was at At that point In his career If it wasn't included In the universal Hitchcock box set Religiously Would this even Get This film has a 4k release Before Like far more important And influential And worthwhile films Um That have come throughout history So it's It's lucky Probably That it's Just

[01:46:34] Included in In the sets No matter what Um Probably The last one I would come to In that set Which is a set That includes Psycho The Birds Marnie Rope Rear Window Vertigo Like Even Saboteur And Trouble with Harry And you know All of these really Um You know Worthwhile films To watch Even just for someone Who isn't necessarily Into Alfred Hitchcock This is more specialist I think I think it is a bit More kind of like Okay if you're a fan

[01:47:03] Of the man's work It's worthwhile Checking out But more as a More as a curio Really rather than A thing to be enjoyed Which is probably Quite a damning Thing to say That being said Stuff in it That's worthwhile I think There are little Gems in there There is still Some of that Hitchcock magic It's just Um Yeah It's It's spread thin On this one Okay Uh Well As you said It's all still To play for Uh Cam What do you have Yeah It's a no for me It's like Calvin said

[01:47:33] Like This is definitely Like kind of like The academic Hitchcock Only choice Like you could say Vertigo Is one that Academics love But I do think You could show it To other people Who may not love It the first time But will find Things in it That are interesting I just Watching it last night Uh I was really Scratching my head Who would actually Enjoy Sitting and watching Topaz Outside of Hardcore Hitchcock Fans Or film academics I don't And this is released

[01:48:02] As a mainstream Entertainment So I think That's a very Important question To ask Because this is Something released To everyone This would have Been showing In you know A wide release In a theater Back in its day And or well They would have Been doing more Of a platform Release in those Days but Nonetheless This would have Been a mainstream Entertainment And I just Can't imagine Most people Sitting through this And so I tend to think The knock list You want movies That people Are going to feel Drawn towards A spy genre And not Repelled from

[01:48:32] And so Yeah It's a no This is the Spy film I recommend To my enemies Right Yeah Very good This is the best You should check This out Come and see me After your two Hour journey No this is I mean Cam You asked the Question who Would be the People that Would enjoy This film The answer Is honest And easy It's the Same people That would Have enjoyed Those sandwiches The seagulls You've got to The seagulls

[01:49:01] You've really got to Worry about those People There's no Butter There's no Salad It's absolutely Gross You would hand That back To I mean That's Even like in a Bar Like a bar Sandwich That's still Gross So yeah But honestly No There are Bits here That are Enjoyable But I think They almost Work better As like YouTube clips Unfortunately We're in that World now Where like you Could jump into That Harlem Sequence And you could Jump into That defection Sequence And be like Oh that was

[01:49:31] Interesting I wonder what The rest of The film's Like and I'll Just write in The comments Of those Videos Do not Watch the Rest And that's It So three No's As such Topaz is Not making The not Clears The dossier On the Film is Complete And file Disclassified And I will Just say When you have Such an Emphatic No like That The question Would generally Then be The disavowed List I don't Think Alfred Hitchcock Has done Anything That would Ever Be In Question For The Disavowed List

[01:50:02] No No I I agree On that One Yeah So Calvin you Look more Thoughtful About that Are you Thinking about Like Number 17 Or something I was gonna Say you Brought up Number 17 Earlier on And I Was like I don't Know Maybe That one But it's Been a while Since I Rewatched That one But that's About as Close as It gets For Hitchcock I think Yeah I was Thinking spy Genre No No Well Oh Is it I don't It's not Really Is it What's

[01:50:31] What is The plot There were Spies in it Aren't they Were they Oh please Don't tell me That I don't have To add that One to the List to Cover do I I need to Like I'm just gonna Google this Right now Just to see If it makes Any mention Of spies In the plot Plot summary Yeah so For those That don't Know Number 17 Is one of Hitchcock's Early films That was Badly butchered In the editing Room So it is Pretty Incoherent To watch It's not Long though Unlike

[01:51:01] Topaz Which is Two hours Twenty minutes I think Number 17 Is like 75 minutes But yeah I think You're safe It's just Detectives and Criminals So Thank god Yeah No spies No agents Unfortunately Unfortunately I was just Hoping I could Bully you Into Into Making it Onto the Show Oh okay I think The one That people Keep bringing Up saying We should Do Is Jamaica Inn Which I've Seen

[01:51:31] But I feel Like that One is Murky at Best when It comes To Spycraft And Espionage Yeah it's Been a while Since I've Seen it I think The hero Is Going undercover In some way But it's Like It's set in Like the Early 1800s Or something Or late 1700s I'm not Did spies Exist then Maybe Probably But like Yeah because They go back Long ways But That's a weird

[01:52:01] One because It's more about Like a Almost like Modern day Pirates Yeah yeah Yeah Exactly Well yeah Set on the Set in Bodmin Where basically I just I mean There's lots of Pirate stuff I'm just The synopsis Doesn't mention Spies Specifically So if anyone Listening or Watching can Send us a good Argument as to Why Jamaica in Should be Covered Let us know Because I'm Willing to do It but Yeah I'm Game for this Sort of thing

[01:52:30] But that's what The comments Below are for If you think Or you have Any more Pictures for Hitchcock's Spy movies Maybe we Haven't Mentioned Maybe we Missed One Put them In the Comments Below But Leads me With my Final duty And that Is to Thank you Calvin For venturing Back onto The show It continues To be A pleasure Oh it's Always a Pleasure for Me Honestly This is Yeah This is Great Thank you Very much For having Me on I'm Really Glad That we Got to Close the Topaz Chapter After All these Years

[01:53:00] But no It's been A blast Honestly I've loved It We need To Maybe not On air Off air We can Talk about It But we Need to Pick your Next adventure On Spy Hearts There must Be something Else And we'll Talk about Your YouTube Channel for A second You talk About Bond Of course But you Also talk About other Spies And Adjacent So you're Well versed In the Verse Oh yeah I just Finished going Through all Of the Die Hard Films Recently So I Know that That's Not Consistently Spy Genre But you Know I cover Sort of

[01:53:30] The bigger Action Franchise Stuff Every now And then As well And that Was an Interesting Thing for Me Particularly When it's Movies That you Don't Have I'm Probably One of The few People On earth That doesn't Have That much Of a Fondness For The first Die Hard I think It's a Really Great Action Film But I Don't Watch it Like every Year Religiously Like some People do So I Don't Know that Series In and Out But I Really enjoyed It Three and Four in Particular I really Really Enjoyed But Four is Having like A little bit Of a resurgence I've seen

[01:54:00] Online at The moment People are Like oh Four is Actually It's like the People who Went back To watch Crystal Skull When Dial of Destiny Came out Oh yeah We were It actually Got good Reviews So you Know I Think History Has remembered It differently But I Think four Had like an 80% on Rotten Tomatoes But it Was like a Lot of People who Are die Hard Die Hard Fans From the Early Films Really Didn't Like it And so That was Quite Noisy

[01:54:29] Especially Online But I Do Think Like when You Contrast It to Especially Five Four Looks Pretty Darn Good Yeah No Five Is Awful That's Like Yeah One Of The worst Films I've Seen Sort Of Territory That's I mean You We keep Talking About it I feel Like that Might be Your next Adventure But Me Watch Watch The space Okay You Multiple times We've spoken About die Hard Five On this Episode You've been In our Vicinity I only Watched that A couple Of weeks Go Don't Make me

[01:55:26] Do It's Sort Of Magically Happened And We're Okay With It Right So That's Fine But For Those Who Haven't Ventured I'm Just Breezing Past Because I Don't Want Any Resistance For The People Who Haven't Checked You Out On YouTube Yet And I Suggest You All Do Where Can People Find You And What Can They Expect From Your YouTube Channel Well You Can Find Me On A Variety Of Platforms If You Just Search Calvin Dyson That's Just The Name Of My Channel And Yes

[01:55:56] It's Mainly Videos About Bond Uploads Every Sunday Pretty Much And They Can Vary Sometimes Sometimes It's Talking About Bond News Sometimes It'll Be Which Is Shaping Up To Be The Longest Video I've Ever Done It's Just Expanding And Expanding But

[01:56:26] There's An Awful Lot Out Channel I Think And Occasionally We Talk About Other Movies As Well We Me There's Multiple You's In Some Of The Videos To Be Fair You'll Talk To Yourself Which Is Fine Yeah True True Have You

[01:56:58] Austin Powers Crossovers Oh Yeah You'll See The DNA Of Austin Powers In Those Films A Lot Interesting Yeah I've Never Seen Any Of Them I'm Just Looking Yeah Silences Murders Row The Ambushes The Wrecking Crew Oh They Got Them Out In Quite Quick Succession Two Of Them Were The Same Oh Yeah Oh Yeah They What Was Hot At The Time Well That's Your Challenge Should You Choose To Accept It I Want To See Some Matt Helm I Want To See Yeah I

[01:57:28] Want More Matt Helm In My Beyond This Show As Well You Know How Much I Love You Guys And What You Do And It's Yes No It's Always A Pleasure Always Thank You Very Much There

[01:57:58] You Go Folks That Was Topaz Signed Sealed Delivered It's Yours That's Very Good I Fun With Calvin And I Honestly Think This Is Probably The Most Entertaining And Perhaps Lively Topaz Discussion On The Internet

[01:58:28] I'm Going To Go There And Say It How Many Laughs Are There In Your Topaz Podcast Out There Yeah You Bunch Of Stinkers Out There Good Luck To You You You Know There's Actually Alfred Hitchcock Podcast Out There That I Might Have Professionally Done This I Was But Hey There's More Hitchcock Films To Come There Are

[01:58:58] We'll Have Lady Banishes In The Future Sabotage There's A couple More But That About Wraps Us Up For This Week Obviously Topaz Did Not Make The Not List It's A rare Hitchcock Film That Well There's A big Anniversary

[01:59:27] Looming Folks Oh It Is The 30th Anniversary Of Brian De Palma's Mission Impossible We're Going to Go Back To The Beginning With Ethan Hunt And Take A look At That Film And Just We'll Have A Special Panel It'll Be A Roundtable Episode And We're Going To Really Decipher What's Special About This Film Why 30 Years Later Is It Worthy Of Going Back To You're Damn Right Cam It's About Time We Lit That Fuse Once Again And You know We gave The 30th Anniversary Rollout

[01:59:57] Red carpet Blue carpet Whatever Colored Carpet You'd Like For GoldenEye Last Year So Why Not Do It For The Film That Started Off An Eight Film Franchise 1996 Mission Impossible Yeah I mean Not as Much Talk About The Tie In Video Game Although Mission Impossible Game Kind of Underrated It Did The N64 Game Wasn't It Yeah It Was Pretty Fun Yeah I

[02:00:42] Mission Impossible And We're Doing It In Proper Style With A Round Table And Some Great Guests So You'll Want to Hit Subscribe If You Haven't Already And Join Us Next Week If

[02:01:12] Really Really Is So Come And Light The Fuse Over On Patreon Patreon.com There's A lot Of Competitive Priced Options You Could Join Over There Get A Bunch Of Free Extra Shows Alongside Your Patronage And Just Hang Out With Some Real Cool People Because All The Best Spy Movie Fans Are Hanging Out On The Spy Hearts Patreon Yeah And There's Some More Hitchcock Episodes Over There We Have Episodes On Vertigo And Psycho Plus

[02:01:41] Over On The OSS On The Small Screen We Took A Look At The TV Movie Remake Of Notorious And That Episode Is A Hoot It's One Of My Favourites I Think Of Our Run Of TV Spy Movies Mostly Because Of

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