Jon Amiel on The Man Who Knew Too Little - SpyMaster Interview #137

[00:00:39] Welcome to SpyHards Podcast, I'm Agent Scott. And I'm Cam the Provocateur, and Scott I seem to have lost my Russian dancing troupe. They abandoned you because it turns out you have no rhythm. Turns out I can't Russian dance. The problem is I'm Russian. You keep rushing through the routine, that's why they don't like you. Yeah, they kick me to the curb. They are, they are, they are. Well they're doing those little flick kicks to the curb. That's right. Yeah. It's probably a name for them, but we're not Russian. No, no.

[00:01:09] No, we aren't. Nyet, nyet, we are not. What we should be doing is Russian this intro. We should because we have a fantastic interview. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Joining us this week, as we promised last week, and I think at some point it did slip through, it's coming out on Friday, but actually it's coming out this week. Surprise! We're spies. We like to keep you on your toes, folks. Stay frosty out there. Joining us is the director of The Man Who Knew Too Little, Mr. Jon Amiel. He takes us all behind the scenes of the film. We are writing the Wikipedia page as we are want to do.

[00:01:38] We've written many of them on the making of The Man Who Knew Too Little, and he's got some other films under his belt that you may know as well. A little film called Entrapment, and there is a Sean Connery impression coming your way shortly that may just make your day. Yeah, and some stories about Summersbee as well. So there's a lot to dive into here. Jon's had a really interesting career, and well, there's going to be some real juicy nuggets in this interview, I promise you.

[00:02:07] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So grab your Russian nesting doll, stick it in your earpods, let's have some fun. Okay, folks, joining us on Spy Hearts is a man of many talents. Some may say he has too many. He's a director, he's a writer, he's a producer. He's given us films like The Core, Entrapment, Copycat, and of course the film we're talking about this week, 1997's Bill Murray Comedy, The Man Who Knew Too Little.

[00:02:34] It's director, Jon Amiel. Hello, Jon, how are you? I'm excellent, my friend. Thank you. It's a pleasure to have you on. We have a lot to dive into with this film. We've spent the week talking about it. We can't get enough of it, and we wanted to say, hey, let's just sit down with the director. Why not? Seems like a fine idea. You might know something about it. I think you might have been on set a couple of times. Yeah.

[00:02:59] Yeah. Let's wind the clock back a little bit, though. Let's go pre-Bill Murray in your life. You know, you get your start working for the Royal Shakespeare Company directing plays there. You end up working on the BBC before you do anything in Hollywood. What made you want to make that jump into show business? Why did that start for you? I never wanted to make it. I never had a burning ambition to be a director.

[00:03:24] In fact, I knew with the force of certainty that I actually didn't have that sort of God-given thing that I believe directors should have, sort of vision or some sort of thing. And I thought I could no more be a director than I could be an Olympic athlete or a grandmaster chess player. I just, I knew it wasn't in me.

[00:03:45] So I think the main reason that I have the resume of an ambitious man is that, by and large, for reasons possibly best understood by the therapist I ought to have, that I've always chosen to do things that scared me more.

[00:04:03] And, you know, I started odd jobbing around the arts, writing music, being a literary manager in the theatre, running a theatre company, avoiding, for as long as I possibly could, actually, the job that scared the shit out of me, which was directing.

[00:04:23] And ultimately, having worked on a number of scripts and handed them tenderly over to these so-called visionaries and watched them fuck them up, I finally thought, okay, that's directing. I can fuck up the script about as well as that guy did. And as anyone who's ever done the job knows, it's been like crack. The high is so addictive. You're hooked.

[00:04:49] You just do it reasonably well once, and you're kind of hooked, however bad it gets. So, you know, my first production in theatre was a modest success. The next one was a catastrophe, but it was too late. I was hooked. And I kind of worked my way up to the giddy heights of the Royal Shakespeare Theatre.

[00:05:14] I was fired from my production on that because Trevor Nunn, the artistic director, didn't like it. Bleeding from multiple wounds to the ego, I left the theatre for good and decided I'd earn a modest living in television instead.

[00:05:35] And that's really how I started in television, first as a literary manager and then directing multi-camera studio stuff before I got my hands on film. It's kind of funny because you talk about like you have a success and then something bombs. We're still on the bomb stage. We're waiting for the success. But it's also you talk about facing your fears. I think one of my inbuilt fears would have been ever telling Sean Connery what to do.

[00:06:04] So the fact that you even attempted that is remarkable. Yes. Before I started working with Sean Connery, people were lining up to tell me a story about Sean with Michael Bay, the much loved Michael Bay on the set of The Rock. And apparently, according to several witnesses, there was a moment when Sean took Michael Bay by the scruff of the neck, slammed him up against the side of the set and said,

[00:06:33] let me tell you a thing or two about directing, Sonny. And I lived in absolute mortal fear from that moment on of the same thing happened to me, which fortunately never did. But, yeah, it was a challenge. When he was circling that role, were you like, please not him? Please not him. No, no. Let's cast a wider net. Anyone else out there? No.

[00:07:04] Unfortunately, it was Sean and Catherine were already attached to that movie. They essentially hired me. I didn't get to hire them. So, yeah, it was one of those interesting reversals of sort of power dynamics, I suppose you could say that. Right. Well, we'll circle back to Entrapment, I think, a bit later. But let's get to the movie we're talking about, which is The Man Who Knew Too Little.

[00:07:34] And, you know, first up, it's kind of an obvious question, but how did you become attached to this project? So, my very, very dear friend, the dearly departed Mark Tarloff brought me a script. We'd already made one movie together. It was called Aunt Julia and the Script Writer in most of the world and Tune in Tomorrow over here.

[00:08:01] And it starred Keanu Reeves, Barbara Hershey, Peter Falk and a wonderful cast of comic actors. And this seemed like a wonderful follow-up to it.

[00:08:13] I've always been fascinated from the singing detective through my very first student film, you know, my very first student film for the BBC and all the way through Aunt Julia and the Script Writer with this kind of collision between fantasy and reality, fact and fiction, dreaming and waking.

[00:08:34] And this was a wonderful script that really allowed me to play with my theatre experience and my deep love of this collision where fiction becomes reality. So, that's where it started. Well, I wanted to ask about the book. Did you read the book by Robert Farrer?

[00:09:01] You know, it was called Watch That Man. I believe I did back in the dawn of time. But Robert had written a screenplay based on his book. And as much as I love the screenplay, it was also obvious that it needed a lot of work to tune up the comedy and to make it more complex and more enjoyable.

[00:09:31] Really, because one of the fascinating challenges of that movie was to continually have characters say things that could be interpreted in two ways. You know, at the moment, Peter Gallagher's character gives his brother two ambassador cigars and says, we're going to smoke the ambassadors. We'll smoke them at midnight. We'll smoke them at midnight.

[00:09:58] Of course, run totally afoul of, spoiler alert, KGB MI6 plot to restart the Cold War by blowing up the Russian president and British ambassador at a banquet. Right.

[00:10:16] So, you know, it was finding those really clever double entendres throughout that kept both sides without making them appear ludicrously stupid. The story's stupid. The characters shouldn't be. Right. To really tool that.

[00:10:41] So I did a bunch of work with Howard Franklin and then Peter Tolan, the wonderful Peter Tolan came in and did some dialogue work as well to sort of polish it up. Well, I guess on the other side of that coin, talking about casting, you mentioned, you know, Catherine Zeta-Jones and Sean Connery being attached to entrapment before you came along. With this film, Bill Murray is the key. Was he attached at that time? Was there a casting process?

[00:11:11] Yeah. You know, you basically try and call Bill, which is impossible because he barely has a phone and doesn't answer it even when he does. And, you know, you leave. It's sort of rather like like wrapping a message around pigeon's foot and throwing it in the air and hoping it finds its way to the desired destination. But I did eventually get a call from Bill. Yeah.

[00:11:42] Like this. And we met up in New York and got on just fine. And about two months later, he was in London in a rehearsal room with me on this movie. It sounds like then when you took this assignment, you decided on Bill Murray. Like that was that was who you went for immediately. Was there any thought to anyone else or that it was Bill Murray number one?

[00:12:11] You know, it's hard to I don't think there was anybody else for me at the time. I wanted somebody obviously that was funny that who needed to be able to carry a movie because at that time, movies were still being carried by single comedians. You know, being Adam Sandler movie, a Robin Williams movie, a Billy Crystal movie.

[00:12:39] And, you know, really, this came towards the very end of Bill's career. And in fact, Bill's career is a solo comedic actor. Yeah. You know, soon after he was doing things with Alexander Payne, Election and Rushmore. And he was Steve Zizou with with Wes Anderson. Thank you. With Wes Anderson.

[00:13:08] That was a senior moment. And bless you for stepping in. Yeah. So and in those roles, he found a way to be to be a lot more of the real Bill. Sort of melancholy, mournful, comic, cynical. Quite gentle sometimes.

[00:13:37] But this came right at the very end of that period when when comedy stars were still headlining movies. And I don't think there was ever anybody else in my mind. I wanted somebody that could carry it commercially, could carry it comedically, was smart and inventive,

[00:13:58] which Bill proved to be because there's a lot of improvised stuff that just came off, came up out of the set and could convey that sort of lovely innocence. A sort of gentle innocence that for me was evocative of like Danny Kaye in Walter Mitty.

[00:14:25] That, you know, that that story of a bumbling innocent who stumbles into a situation and with no skill of their own, by vast amounts of luck, somehow manages to prevail against evil. That's something that really jumped out to me, too. I was going to say about the kind of comedy at that time, like there's a real innocence to the comedy throughout the course of the movie.

[00:14:50] Even like the stuff that's maybe the more, you know, sexual in nature, it's still very like playful and light. Whereas you look, you know, you mentioned Adam Sandler is coming up at that time. There's much more of a crassness there. Also, Jim Carrey. This is kind of that period, too, where he's also doing a lot of, you know, crazy kind of body humor kind of stuff as well. It did jump out to me when I was watching the movie just yesterday that this definitely feels more kind of light and playful than a lot of what was going on at that time period.

[00:15:19] Yes, very good point. There's a sweetness to it. You know, Jim Carrey plugged into the sort of Jerry Lewis body comedy tradition. Frankly, that's never been my bag. I didn't grow up with Jerry Lewis and that style of comedy. I've never really kind of dug it too much since.

[00:15:46] I think I wanted this to have a sweetness to it. I wanted it to be infused with the spirit of Wallace. And you're right. Even even even Joanne Whalley's character has, you know, she could have been super hard, super tough. But I'd work with Joanne before on The Singing Detective.

[00:16:16] Again, she was my absolute first choice for this. She's incredibly sexy. But brings a sweetness and an innocence to the things she does. And I love that for this role.

[00:16:38] So and even the villains, you know, Boris the Butcher turns out to be a sweetheart. You know, so yes, it does have a kind of golden heart to it, this. And I thought that was really refreshing. I drew from other movies, too, like like Arabesque and Charade.

[00:17:08] They have a similar tone. And there were movies that I'd grown up loving and kind of wanted to reinvent. Yeah. Well, I was kind of wanting to jump off a little bit of the Bill Murray. But I guess like the one thing you mentioned there that stuck with me is the idea of the sweetness to it. Because I think the whole concept would fall apart if your lead was snarky. Yeah. You have to believe that he believes. And it's not that he's an idiot.

[00:17:39] He's just he's just buying into it. And he's just naive, perhaps, is really the word I would look for for this. And that's absolutely fine. That's nothing to like turn your nose at. And so you actually like you're behind him. You kind of want him to be the spy and save the day, despite him being, you know, Cary Grant in North by Northwest and just lucks his way through the whole film. Yeah, you really do get behind it. And so I mean, I was going to talk about Bill Murray some more, but you mentioned casting. So I have to I have to just ask the question about Richard Wilson.

[00:18:08] I hadn't seen this film until I watched it this week and I saw him on screen. And I, of course, yelled, I don't believe it. One Foot in the Grave, of course, is beloved comedy here in the UK. I can't speak to North America. But I mean, see, he was making that show at the same time as this. So this was like the his fame was an all time high in that sense. Casting him must have been an absolute pleasure working with him as well, I imagine. I'll be honest with you. Casting the rest of this show was a fucking joy.

[00:18:39] It really, really was. I was able to go to a whole bunch of my absolute favorite actors and and go come have some fun. Richard, I'd grown up knowing from the Hampstead Theatre Club, which was my first ever theatre gig. He's one of the most naturally gifted comic actors I've ever known.

[00:19:06] He he literally comes on the screen and I find myself starting to giggle. He can take a line like doesn't that just bite it for or the floater flush him, flush him Hawkins. And and and he he manages you can actually see him reddening. He's so in those moments.

[00:19:35] No, Richard Richard is God's gift to to directors. Honestly, you just give him the space and and let him play. Well, we'll maybe get into some of the rest of the cast. I want to talk about Alfred Molina and a couple of other names that pop up in this film, including, I think, one person's first ever film, which I think was interesting. But let's talk about Bill Murray. You've got him on board. You've got your number one. What's he like to direct?

[00:20:04] What's it like to work with Bill Murray? Interesting. There's subtext there. Challenging. Yes. I mean, look. I've actually said this. I've said this in an interview. You know, when you do these big studio movies, they'll sit you in a hotel room for two days and wheel in correspondence one after another. You know, you sit in the same chair.

[00:20:34] They sit in the chair opposite. They give, you know, they're given six minutes to interview you. And then they get their thumb drive and off they go. And you do the next one. And by the time you've done 40 interviews, which I did 49 one day on Entrapment. God.

[00:20:57] And the 45th person says to you, Sir John, what was it like working with Sean Connery? You know, I finally said, well, if it was a nightmare, do you think I'd really tell you in this interview? I got into a lot of trouble for that because normally you just say wonderful, fabulous, marvelous.

[00:21:27] And I'm tempted to do the same here. But Bill is demanding. No question about it. There was one moment when he kind of got in my face and said, will you try being funny 10 hours a day and see how it feels?

[00:21:48] And I thought, you know, there's a reason why so many comedians of that era and that ilk tend to be troubled people. Spending 10 hours a day being funny, feeling the weight of funny on your shoulders. I think that's why Bill was so relieved to become an actor again rather than just a comedian.

[00:22:18] Because I think the strain of being funny 10 hours a day, as he rightly described, was substantial. So, and Bill wants a big playground. He doesn't want to be given marks. He doesn't want specific lighting. And that was a challenge because we were threading the needle between broad comedy and the tropes of a thriller.

[00:22:47] So, we were using things like little eye lights. You know, these sort of 60s noir lighting tropes. And getting Bill to hit a mark was occasionally challenging. Because he just wants to roam and play and improvise. It's challenging because the script is quite specific. It's a lot of plot.

[00:23:17] There's a lot of dublant tendre. And so, in those respects, it was, as I said, he was demanding to work with. On the other hand, watching the film, as I did for the first time in probably 20 years last night, prepping for this, I loved every second of him.

[00:23:42] And felt an enormous sense of gratitude to what he managed to pull off in this film. To be funny, to be touching, to be idiotic without being stupid, if you see what I mean. To be naive without being stupid. To keep that real sense of innocence, even though he's not really an innocent person at all.

[00:24:12] But he played it beautifully. So, I felt a big debt of gratitude to him for all of that. I think there's a gracefulness in his performance in keeping that sort of naive earnestness to it. But I think there's also a gracefulness in your answer there. I appreciate you digging a little bit for that one. Because you could have just said, it was great. Oh, it was great. Yeah. And I've done those press things myself. I've been the guy doing the six minutes. And I've asked the same question every time. Because you have to ask the question.

[00:24:41] You know, like, that's what the readers or the listeners or the viewers want to hear. And I feel like, with people like Bill, and you do hear the stories, sometimes it feels like they've built a rod for their own back. Because they have this thing where, like, Bill, this great improviser, he commands the sets, he powers them, and he brings the energy. So then you expect the energy. And then he has to do that every time. And sometimes it probably was nice for him to turn up and be like, I'm just going to read these words.

[00:25:09] And so, yeah, you're looking for him to lead. And he's coming up with the funnies. And, yeah, it probably is tough to be that guy for 10 hours a day. I think it is. And I think we have to make allowances for our professional comedians. There has to be a space where they can be miserable, or where they can be as unfunny as they choose to be. And very often they don't get much of that space. I was going to actually, in terms of his performance, ask about the improv element.

[00:25:37] Because this is a movie where everything is so specific, in terms of, as you said, all the double entendres. How do you even, in a way, allow for improv in that situation, without putting the setups and the various machinations of the plot at risk? Yeah, it's a really good question. And I think it's a question of your tramlines. You know, each scene will have a couple of tramlines

[00:26:06] that the actors need to run on. There may be a critical plot point. There may be a critical cue for another actor that makes them, you know, causes a change in their emotional state or what they understand. And so those tramlines you have to stick to. But within that, a good actor will always find freedom, and a good director will always give that actor the freedom

[00:26:36] to find those moments. So there are just, there are, you know, Bill hewed to the script pretty closely, but would always find ways. For example, when he's mugged in that very early scene, and, you know, he goes, you know,

[00:27:05] please don't hurt me, I've got children. And he's playing while it's acting, acting in some way. So in a moment like that, Bill, you know, you just give Bill the freedom to let him run. He knows what he's got to do. You've got to try three or four takes of a guy acting very badly, acting being mugged very badly. Sometimes it'll just be a line,

[00:27:35] like Joanne Wally's character says at one point, I've got to go to the loo. And he goes, oh, well, off to the loo with you. It's not an unforgettable line, but funny. And again, just came out of Bill's mouth. So within these moments, a really good coming actor will find plenty of room to play. And you're foolish if you don't give it to them.

[00:28:06] Yeah. Was there a particular moment that sort of going back in your mind, it was something that perhaps Bill improv'd that actually changed maybe a bit of the story or changed where you were going to make a scene? Perhaps what was his biggest gift to the film, is a way of rephrasing that. I don't remember Bill substantially changing the script. I've had actors come in and wanting to do that. Bill was not one of them.

[00:28:34] He basically bought the script and then just resolved that once he was in, he would find the wiggle room and play space that he needed. So I don't think that Bill's biggest contribution was really to the script or to its content or to its tone.

[00:29:03] I think his biggest gift was essentially carrying it on his shoulders. And he does. That character is pretty much in every scene. And Bill took it on his substantial shoulders and really carried it. I want to ask, just in terms of the complexity of the plotting, and that's part of the fun,

[00:29:33] is following along with all the double entendres and the doublespeak throughout the course of the film. But keeping a very fast pace, this movie is 90 minutes and it moves quickly without ever overwhelming the audience in terms of trying to keep track of what's going on. I think it's really well handled in the movie. Was that something that was a challenge consistently throughout or something that, because the script is so solid, was pretty well mapped out? Yeah. I mean, I was a little apprehensive watching the film again because most films that you watch from the 90s

[00:30:02] feel very slow now. Cutting tempo feels slow. Movies that I've made myself, movies that I grew up loving. You know, I tried showing my kids The Magnificent Seven, the original one. Yeah. Well, I revered that film. Yeah. Watching it with my ADD, you know, TikTok bred kids, I suddenly thought, oh my God, it's slow.

[00:30:32] Its shots go on twice as long as you now feel they need to. So, so, um, I was quite pleased to find that the story didn't drag at all. And it frankly wasn't a choice, you know, where I said, oh God, it's got to be Pacey, Pacey, Pacey. Snap it up. I don't remember ever saying to the actors, okay, speed up guys. Come on, pick it up.

[00:31:00] Um, I think there was an invitation in the language and the texture of the story to the actors to, to deliver those lines in a particular way. You know, there are, uh, it, it, it, um, it's in here that there's something about the script that, that's a slightly lost quality. It, it, it's witty.

[00:31:29] Witty is not a word that's often used anymore about film or anything else, but it's a very witty film and wit naturally is best delivered quickly. It, it has a light, there's a lightness to it and, and a, and a mental agility to it. And the script, despite the fact it's arguably as dumb as dirt in so many ways, is pretty smart and, and it's quite witty.

[00:31:59] And, and I think it invites that, that delivery that English actors particularly excel at, you know, delivering fast lines, um, uh, with clear articulation and a lightness of touch that assumes you can keep up with, with the speaker. Um, and I like that. I like inviting, um, an audience to think just a little. I like respecting their intelligence.

[00:32:29] I, I, I spit on T.P. Barnum's, uh, dictum that nobody ever lost money underestimating their audience. I think we, we frequently lose money in, in the film industry underestimating our audience. And, uh, I think more and more now in the days of social media, we're aware of it because, you know, we're getting real time feedback from them.

[00:32:56] Um, but I, I like to treat my audience as smart and I like to hope they may want to see my film again, just to find little Easter eggs that they may have missed. And so all of that, I think, conduces towards the same thing. I'm going to skip ahead to a different question because you mentioned the word Easter eggs. And there are quite a few in this film for those paying attention. You've got the Caddyshack passport photo.

[00:33:25] You've got the Venkman shout out. Uh, Copycat is playing on the television as well. Um, is there any we missed? And, you know, why did you throw so many in? What was it, you know, what was the sort of impetus behind that? Well, you missed a few others that nobody would know. For example, the Babelchik dancers, which was the name given to the Russian troops, was my mother's maiden name. Um, uh, I liked, you know, I like these little sort of, um, Easter eggs.

[00:33:54] I'd put some in for my friends and family usually. Um, uh, so, um, but I think you picked out, you picked out, um, a bunch of them for sure. Often the Easter eggs aren't just so much those sort of meta references, but, but just the, the little things you might miss the first time, but see the second, um, you know, small touches follows through.

[00:34:23] Um, and, um, those are, those are things that, that give me great sort of pleasure, uh, to think about. I like to, to imagine that people will enjoy watching my films again, and I make them, um, so that if you do, you'll find things that you may not have seen the first time. I think that builds off your point before about underestimating our audiences in a sense, you know, you're, you're putting the Venkman there, you're putting copycat on the screen,

[00:34:53] but it's for the audience to know what copycat is, to understand the Venkman reference. You're not pointing it out and explaining it. Exactly. And that's, that's exactly it. And, um, I suppose more of a directorial question to you. We've mentioned the two realities, the double speak of this film. Um, how do you direct a scene where the audience has to understand two stories at the same time? Is that, is that a particular challenge? Uh, no, it isn't really because, um, if you think,

[00:35:22] um, think about that magical thing called subtext, you know, in life, we're frequently telling two stories at the same time. You know, um, I say, how are you? You say fine. You're high voicing me. And the high voice immediately tells you that you're not really fine, but fine is the only acceptable way for you to answer in a social situation. And, and immediately there,

[00:35:51] you've got two layers. And, and I think, um, that mesmerizes me. I, I love subtext as I think any director, good director should. Um, I love the disparity between what people say and what they mean. I love the weird facial disconnects. Like, have you ever noticed? And this is something that I think every director should remember.

[00:36:23] Um, that when people are really sad and telling you something, that's really upsetting, they smile. Notice that it's super interesting. Now, it's something I have to tell, remind actors of often because actors always want to show what they're feeling. Look, real tears. I'm crying. Look, I've really done my homework. Um,

[00:36:53] whereas in real life, we want to hide. We absolutely don't want to cry in public. It's embarrassing. It's messy for a woman. Your mascara is going to run. If you're a guy, you're going to look like a baby, you know, in your own eyes or whatever. So we smile to stop ourselves from crying. And, and so that's just, and those kind of moments of subtext, uh, uh, uh,

[00:37:23] items of, of total daily life. And I always find dramas most interesting. Interesting. When a character is saying one thing and meaning another, and an audience will always be able to follow, um, if it's played right. So, um, yeah, for me, not difficult. I, I find that's kind of where I live really. Okay. So like, you know, Scott was asking there,

[00:37:50] if that was a challenge that pivots me to a different question, which is what was the biggest challenge for you working on this film? Um, apart from Bill Murray. Well, um, I think the first big challenge was, was really getting the script. Right. It took a lot of doing, you know, when you make a comedy thriller, you make a really difficult contract for yourself. You know,

[00:38:17] if you make a drama silence from the audience is plenty, it might be moved. There might be snoozing. They might be bored to tears. Does it? But, but at least that's fine. When you say I'm making a comedy, you're making an unwritten contract with your audience to make them laugh. If you making a thriller, you have an unwritten contract with them to surprise and thrill, you know, suspense, surprise,

[00:38:45] excitement are the absolute basic ingredients of a good thriller. If you're doing a comedy thriller, you've got to thread the needle between two really, really, really difficult modalities. Got to be funny enough to make people laugh. It's got to be clever enough to be suspenseful and occasionally exciting and even surprising. So I think, I think figuring that out in the script was, was one of the, the,

[00:39:14] the biggest challenges really. Um, for the rest, I'm trying to think, but, but, um, comedies aren't always easy to direct. I've had, you know, I've honestly, I've had more fun directing my serial killer thriller copycat than I have directing my comedies. Um, you know, the old adage, comedy is easy. Dying, uh, dying is easy. Comedy is hard. Yeah. Um,

[00:39:44] it, it, it's true. And, um, uh, on a dark serial killer thriller, we laughed on set all the time. Cause it was a release. Make the comedies. Not always so much. Um, so sometimes keeping, keeping the bubble on set, keeping that sort of effervescence, that energy without sort of being too much like, okay, chaps,

[00:40:13] let's all be funny today. You know, without, without that becomes one of the really challenging dynamics of, um, of directing comedy. And, um, uh, so, so I, that part, um, is always quite interesting. And, you know, another challenge. Unfortunately, one I didn't have with, with, with this show really, because I,

[00:40:43] I hired really, really, really gifted comic actors, but how do you direct an actor to be funny? Fortunately, as I said, not much of that, but, as good a director of actors as I feel I am. And I think I'm good. Um, growing up in the theater, I sort of got over my fear of actors and a lot of directors have,

[00:41:10] and really came to understand process and all the rest of it, but directing an actor to be funny if they're not directing them to have a sense of irony if they don't get it. Um, um, um, um, directing an actor to be intelligent, um, um, if they're not, those three things are really, really challenging. Um, um, um, and that's a bit of a digression because none of those things were really a problem in this show. Um,

[00:41:40] um, the, all of the actors that I cast really were pretty stellar in terms of understanding dynamics of the comedy they were in. Right. Now, you know, you have someone like Alfred Molina, who's such like a brilliant, both comic and, you know, dramatic actor. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Um, Fred, I'd known for a long time. He was a spear carrier in the Royal Shakespeare Company when I was an assistant director.

[00:42:09] And so he and I kind of grew up together. Um, and it was a, a total joy to be able to call him, go, Fred, I've got something for you. See if you like it. Uh, he's fantastic at accents. Um, he's just a brilliant, brilliant character actor. And, uh, the moment he put on that gold tooth, uh, he suddenly became Boris the Buddha, uh,

[00:42:39] just magnificently. Yeah. Um, I think this next question, Cam, despite being from British Columbia is not qualified to, to ask this question. And that is the unique British energy of this film. Um, it, having watched a lot of spy through this, it's kind of what we do. A lot of them, even British ones like to Americanize themselves to in a way, sell themselves to America as a film. This is proudly British. And it feels it.

[00:43:09] But what is interesting is of course, the writer, I believe you brought on Howard Franklin is American. Correct. He's American. Yeah. Yeah. So you've got that in terms of the script is, is perhaps missing that you're bringing that element. I imagine along with the cast, how important was it for you to have that sort of Britishness in the film? Hugely. And firstly, because at the core of the film is, is a total cultural collision between American sincerity,

[00:43:39] earnestness, and occasionally excessive, uh, excessively demonstrated emotion. And the sort of British tendency to do the opposite of all of those things, uh, dry as, as a twig, uh, uh, we are by and large. So that cultural collision starts right at the beginning when, when, uh,

[00:44:03] Bill Murray's character arrives to this deeply cynical passport control office, officer, and just, uh, you, you immediately sense that, that this is a collision of cultures. And, um, there, there are so many interesting ways in which that plays through. Um, you know, uh, Bill Murray's characters,

[00:44:33] uh, you know, delight in getting, uh, getting British idioms, completely wrong. Oh, hello bloke. You know, those sort of, uh, uh, uh, uh, you know, references to Bobby's and things like that, uh, that most Americans delight in because they think they've hit it on, on real current English slang, you know, um, so all of those, those collisions, um, uh, uh,

[00:45:04] are hugely enjoyable. It's also enjoyable that the way the, the English kind of romanticized the Americans in certain ways. Um, I love the scene after that ridiculous car chase where the cop who's now convinced that Bill Murray's character is a secret agent shares a sandwich and a flask of tea with him. Um, and they sit on the hood of his car or the bonnet, depending on which way you look at it. Um,

[00:45:32] chatting about what it's like to be a spy and enjoy torture. How, um, and, and you see the kind of site American or, uh, the, the English person's or of, of, of the sort of glamor of an American. So all of these collisions, uh, uh, uh, uh, really sort of quite delightful to play with. Um, you know,

[00:45:58] they say England and America are two countries divided by a common language and, and there's tremendous amount of playfulness you can find just in the language as well as all of those cultural collisions. Um, and I love the sort of sweetly provoked, the provincial nature of, of the cops. I mean, God knows what bygone days those are, but, you know, friendly cops and, and,

[00:46:28] uh, who happy to chat and, uh, you know, um, like earnest police officers who, who, who like clearly, um, uh, a couple of planks short of a full box, but, but nonetheless, you know, earnestly pursuing their way through the story. Um, so, cueing to those delightful old English stereotypes,

[00:46:57] um, was also great fun. Um, you know, uh, you see it in kind of Nick Frost's work, for example, with Edgar White. You know, you see that, you see that occasionally in, in British films still, but not very often. Well, I was going to ask about the collision of the two styles. Now, this movie has had a real cult status. It's continues to be loved, but at the time,

[00:47:26] was that a tough sell in both marketplaces? Yeah. It sort of tanked when it first came out. Yeah. you know, I think, cause nobody quite knew what it was. Tonally, it, it was a sort of, um, sui generis kind of standalone, really. Wasn't there anything quite like it out there? It was, um, it had a, um, an American star,

[00:47:55] but it was very English tonally. And I think, you know, the, the, the, the multiplex audiences didn't, uh, twig, twig to it. I don't think it was very well marketed, uh, possibly for all of those reasons. And it, it even had an American star, it had Bill Murray, but Bill, it wasn't the Bill Murray that everybody kind of knew and loved as were, you know, the sort of cynical,

[00:48:25] uh, wisecracking, uh, Bill Murray. Yeah. Um, yes, it was closer to the Bill Murray of Caddyshack, but that was an American sort of stereotype, if you like, or, or archetype, if you want. Um, but it wasn't the, the Bill Murray that, that people immediately recognized. And responded to. So I, I think you're right.

[00:48:52] It's taken a good 20 years for that movie to really find its audience. And, um, that audience seems, you know, I get more props from like, they're now usually between 30 and 40 year old males. Most guys who saw this as boys, often with their fathers. I've had people tell me they watched it 15 times with their dad.

[00:49:21] You know, it was their sort of go-to movie. I have people come up and quote lines to me that I've long since forgotten. Um, and, and, uh, so it seems to really, really have sort of found sort of heartland of, of fans. Um, uh, and, and that's kind of thrilling. I could have done with the money at the time and, and the box office numbers,

[00:49:50] but I'll take this. I'll take, I'll take cult. Uh, it works for me. Well, I was going to leave this question to cam, but it forced me to ask you something that cam pointed out to me before we started. And that is the competition you faced in the same year. Austin powers comes out a couple of months before your film. And of course that's more of a pastiche of, of spy films. Whereas you're as a spy comedy, it's not really lampooning anything particularly. Um, and also you've got tomorrow never dies.

[00:50:19] The next Pierce Brosnan bond film coming out about three weeks later. did, did that sort of those films perhaps hurt your film or were they something you were aware of on the horizon when you were making it? Yeah. It's an interesting question and I'm not sure of the answer. I mean, um, Austin powers was, was a kind of, um, uh, the, the kind of reverse gag really, um, uh, uh, of American, but it,

[00:50:48] it was very much American perspective in England, you know, Mike Myers bringing it. So it, the film was really passed through the prism of an American sensibility and, and it's, it's vision of, of swinging London in the sixties and Carnaby street, all of which I grew up with and remember, remember very well, um, was very much, uh,

[00:51:17] a sort of nineties American view of all of those things. Um, so in that way, it was a vastly better fit for an American audience, uh, than the man who knew too little, which was infused with a very British sensibility as you, as you said earlier. Um, um, so I, I don't know. Yeah. Whether it, it, it hurt us and to what extent it hurt us. I, I don't know,

[00:51:46] but I think Austin powers, it was the sort of perfect fit for an American sensibility. Um, and the less you knew about England, frankly, the more you were likely to enjoy it. Just as the less, you know, about the great game of football, the more likely you are to enjoy Ted Lasso, which personally I can't stand. Uh, it's, it's a ridiculous, you know, ridiculously Americanized view of, of,

[00:52:16] of a game that America doesn't understand or really play properly. What are you talking about? They can do a hail Mary, apparently in football. That's fine. According to Ted Lasso, I, I can't stand it either, but that's not. Oh, no, it drives me nuts. It's like, it's as though, as though all you've got to do to, to deeply cynical team of British players is bring a few hallmark, kind of hallmark mottos. Believe. All you've got to do is just believe in yourself. Believe, which was a,

[00:52:45] a, a, a revoltingly emetic, refrain through the world cup, the American commentators, you know, yes, we believe, we believe Cote d'Ivoire. Really? They believe you can see they believe. Oh God, shut up. But anyway, I digress. We interrupt this program to bring you a special report. Agents, where are you? Why do you hide?

[00:53:15] Follow that Patreon trail and make SpyHards your guide. That's right. From spy TV reviews covering the antics of George Smiley, Jack Bauer, and the slow horses to reviews of non-spy movies from your favorite spy actors. There's no more secrets over on our Patreon. But Cam, tell the listeners about this week's top secret broadcast. Well, Scott, for the first episode of our Patrick Stewart tribute month,

[00:53:42] we're going to take a look at the 2017 superhero film, Logan, which of course got a lot of acclaim back in its time. And we are going to really debate whether this movie delivers the berserker rage we hope for in a Wolverine film, or is it missing a certain X factor? Tune in and find out. So deactivate ghost protocol and visit patreon.com slash spy hearts to truly do things angel style.

[00:54:08] But before we close channel D on with the spy jinx. Um, I suppose my last question on the man who knew too little, and I had written down, you know, watching it now, what does it mean to you? And would you do anything differently? But I don't like the question. So I'm going to change it. Good. Going back to it now, what does it mean to you? I think that's still an important part. And what are you most proud of about the film? Uh,

[00:54:39] you know, it's super hard to simplify that answer. You know, film basically three years of your life, you know, months and months and months writing, rewriting, rewrite, you know, rewriting, um, yeah, three months of filming by and large. Um, six to nine months in the editing room and then previewing and all the rest of it, and then getting out there and selling it.

[00:55:07] So it's hard to attribute a single kind of sentence of meaning to sort of what was essentially three turbulent, turbulent years of my life. Um, I'm, I'm super proud that, um, um, I've communicated love.

[00:55:36] I know that sounds cheesy and, and not very clever, but, but when somebody loves something that I've loved, when I've helped them to love it, that, that to me is, is, is something I'm hugely proud of. when I see an audience come out of Summersbee, wiping their eyes and crying, I, I'm really proud that I made them cry. Um,

[00:56:07] because, um, they would only cry if they love the characters. And if they've loved the characters, the way I've loved with them, loved them, live with them, then, then I feel I've done what I most want to do, which is communicates what we do after all storyteller. You can call it what you will directing, but ultimately it's just a really, you're telling a story,

[00:56:32] you're sharing feelings that you have and hoping that you can engender those feelings and in somebody else. So when people come to me and quote that movie to me and tell me how important it was to them and their dad or, or whatever they tell me, um, it's that feeling that of, Oh,

[00:56:58] I was on this desert Island for three years with my little band of castaways. I, I put this message in a bottle and threw it out into the fucking ocean because as director, apart from the preview and, and, and maybe the, you know, the premier, you don't see people watch your movie. You just don't. Yeah. So it really is like, like you're throwing something out into the great unknown. And when somebody,

[00:57:28] I see somebody and I tell them what I've done and, and they go pink and their eyes go shiny and they go, Oh, you directed that. I love that movie. And that may be 20 years later. It, it, it honestly, it's just about the best feeling I get as a director. It, it beats the reviews. It beats the box office returns.

[00:57:56] It sure as shit beats all that, you know, we love you and we want to be in the John Emil business, you know, that you get all of that sort of language of affect that, that this town will give you. And none of which means a damn thing. Um, that really means a lot to me. And, um, uh, the fact that I made people laugh,

[00:58:28] that's, that's a lot. It's really, it's a really, really great feeling. I'm proud of that. You know, I'm proud of the way I transacted the film, the way I, I work with the crew and everything else, but most of all, I'm proud of that. Um, without wanting to sound too cheesy. Not at all. It's not cheesy. Uh, I, I have gone on record many times as saying, I love earnest storytelling. Um,

[00:58:56] I always go back to the rocketeer is a favorite film of mine. It's incredibly earnest. And a lot of people find it to be very, you know, a bit Blair and they want more explosions and guns and killings and blah, blah, blah. No, I liked the fact that it's trying to do something good. I I'm a star Trek fan. That's what that's there. It's about trying to do better. And I just, and I liked the fact that the thing you take from it is the fact that you have impacted people's lives one way or another. And that's,

[00:59:24] that's a magical thing that you get to do as part of your art. Yes. Well, I can say that, uh, my family, one of the staples of our family viewing was Summersbee, a movie that my parents went and saw in the theater. And then we had a cabin we used to go to every summer and we would bring the VHS of Summersbee. And I've seen it multiple times. And, uh, my dad, it was just a movie. He still loves this day and huge Richard gear fan as well. Huh?

[00:59:54] Uh, well that, uh, that is, is music to music to my little ears. Um, the interesting story about Summersbee, if you want to hear it, which is, you know, for any of your viewers, listeners, um, who make movies, you know, the, the dreaded, uh, thing in, in filmmaking for, uh, studios, uh, are the test screenings. They're, they're, they're a horrendous ordeal.

[01:00:23] I'd made Summersbee. And again, spoiler alert, we kill the hero at the end. There'd been no movie for at least 15 years that had killed the hero. Um, and, and the studio were immensely anxious about it. We go into our first test screening and, um, the, the, each of the audience had given your exam paper. It's a horror, horrible inverse. You know,

[01:00:53] in the old days, you used to sit in a room with 300 people or, you know, and then writing a paper. And then you hand it to some supposedly impartial God, like the duty cater. Um, in this version, you've got 300 people coming in, swelling 20 ounce sodas, eating popcorn, and they're marking your exam paper. And they're given a piece of paper that said, what are the scenes you like most? What are the scenes you like least? The ending exclamation point,

[01:01:21] underscore underscore over and over again. Yeah. Focus group. The, the, the guy is asking the focus group, how many people didn't like the ending 20 out of 20 hands went up. So I walk out of the theater and all the studio executives, and, and, and the guys from new Regency are standing there. They go, John, we told you, they're not going to buy that ending. You got to change it.

[01:01:51] So I get on my artistic high horse and I start going, don't mean, I'm not changing it. You know, um, think about tales of two cities. If, if Cindy Carton hadn't made that one gesture at the end, nobody would remember that novel. Nobody ever. Jesus Christ needed to die. Otherwise there'd be no Christianity. Um, John, they're not going to buy it. Hmm. And so.

[01:02:21] I walked away. I, I realized I had to get clever. God bless the DGA. I guarantee me two previews. I got another one before anybody could fuck with my cut. And I thought about it. I thought about it. And I thought about it. Um, finally what I did, I made the ending even longer and even more emotional. There was absolutely no way. I was going to have my name on a movie where that guy lived anyway,

[01:02:49] but I did do something that was clever. I think I said, okay guys, I'll, I'm, I'm going to make some changes to the ending, but in return, I want you to do two things. When you recruit people from the moles in the Sousa, tell them it's a dramatic love story or even a tragic love story. Cause people know in real life, whether they're going into a comedy or a three hanky weepy, tell them,

[01:03:19] tell them. And secondly, when you ask them who didn't like the ending, ask them who thinks it would be a better movie if he lived. Yeah. It was really interesting. The audience recruited, watched the movie in a different way. They still laughed. They still applauded when James Earl Jones, black judge walked in to, to try that the Ku Klux Klan's witness and all of that sort of stuff, but they watched it differently.

[01:03:49] And when they were asked who didn't like the ending, at least 17 out of the 20 hands went up. And then the guy said, well, how many people think it'd be better movie if he lived? Most of those hands stayed up. And then somebody goes, well, yeah, but if he lived, then they would know he wasn't really Somersby. And then the kid would know really wasn't his father. And then the deal he made with the slaves wouldn't really be good. Would it? It wouldn't really be.

[01:04:19] And everyone went, Oh yeah. The hands came down. I never heard another word about the ending from the studio, except after the movie was quite successful. About a year later, I get a call from Warner brothers, John Mel Gibson wants to make tale of two cities. Would you like to direct it? And,

[01:04:48] and sure as shit, you know, outcomes, the English patient outcomes. Then Mel didn't make Taylor two cities, but did make brave heart where he completely ripped off, um, the whole scaffolding, uh, and ending of, of Somersby. Um, so a long anecdote, but one that should serve as, as sort of a certain amount of inspiration to filmmakers that get put through or deal by test screening.

[01:05:18] Yeah. It's a great story. Great story. Yeah. I think, uh, I think we go back to the old Ted Lasso believe all of a sudden, just, just, just believe, just believe. exactly. Believe. Um, I would be remiss as a spy movie podcast. If I didn't ask a Sean Connery question, by all means, uh, I don't need to set him up. We all know who Sean Connery is and what he means to spy movies. What, and could you tell us a particular Sean Connery story from making entrapment?

[01:05:48] What was he like to work with? I want to ask a million questions, but I suppose ultimately what's your lasting impression of Sean Connery? Um, of genuinely hard man. Hmm. You know, um, uh, a lot of actors, you know, pretend to be, pretend to be a various things. Sean never really pretended. Um, he, he, he, he, he's a fine actor,

[01:06:18] but not a great actor, but a great movie star. Yeah. And, and, and, and one of the great, one of the really interesting paradoxes about that I often wonder about is why so many great actors, not movie stars, and why so many movie stars, not actually great actors. Um, um, but Sean had the real quality of movie star, which was the willingness and ability to be himself utterly on,

[01:06:48] on screen. Um, um, uh, so, you know, subtlety, delicacy, nuance, sensibility, not his strengths, but he never pretended to be any of those things. Um, the, what you see on screen is a great deal of that really is, uh, Sean Connery. Although, let me tell you,

[01:07:17] he hates cars. Really? Fucking hates cars. We gave him a brand new, uh, uh, Jaguar S type, super top of the line thing. He goes, how am I supposed to drive this fucking thing? There's no fucking room in it. Um, hates guns. Um, um, hates technology. I mean,

[01:07:42] there's a scene where his character had to type and do a couple of lines of dialogue. He goes, he goes, how the fuck am I supposed to type and talk at the same time? And I have to tell him, Sean, it doesn't really matter what you're typing. It's fine. Just, just wiggle your fingers. Uh, I mean, these are things that, that people just, you just wouldn't expect from, from Sean Connery. Um,

[01:08:14] but, um, um, you know, it's, it's just a very, very interesting, um, challenge when you're supposed, you're, you're the director, you're supposed to be the boss of the actors, but that actor is someone you've idolized since you were a child. How can you be boss of that person? You can't. It's very, very difficult.

[01:08:43] So you have to find a way, um, with integrity to, to, to, to get what you need from them, but not in the way that you might do with, with a, a jobbing day player or an actor who's basically waiting for you to tell them what to do. You, you, your job, you know, you don't take a thoroughbred Arabian stallion and,

[01:09:12] and harness them to a hay cart. Um, your job is to let them run. And so my job with, with, with Sean really was to clear the way for him to be that the best part of himself. What was really interesting about the original script I was given, which I completely and totally rewrote, um, with the magnificent William Broyles, um, uh,

[01:09:43] was that, that they were still playing him as if he were James Bond in the original script. Basically meets Catherine Zedrick Jones, who's 40 years, his junior. And in the, at the end of the first scene, they jump into bed together. What a horrible idea. Really horrible idea. It was so unseemly. Um, and there was a, already by that stage, uh,

[01:10:12] there'd been a slew of older guy, younger women movies, and that there was a, a growing wave of revulsion against it. But, um, one of the, the biggest things that I did really was, was take that part of the story away from the James Bond, um, you know, pleased to meet you. Let's fuck, um, kind of dynamic and, and put it into the, my fair lady down dynamic. Uh,

[01:10:42] what I was absolutely insistent about was that there'd be no romantic agenda between these two, other than if only you were 20 years older, if only you were 20 years younger, that sort of ache that, that, um, an older man might feel for a beautiful younger woman. And the kind of crush that a younger woman might have on an older guy, though never act upon it. And so,

[01:11:12] uh, that was part, that was one of my main contributions to, to the romantic architecture of the story was to take it away from Bond and, and put it, uh, into, to that sort of, um, Eliza Doolittle, Henry Higgins kind of dynamic. Um, it was interesting. Sean was a little resistant at first. He still wanted to be the guy that got the girl. Hmm. And,

[01:11:42] and so it took, um, it took some, some talking. Um, but, uh, yeah, that's one of the things I, I really love about that film is the relationship between the two of them. That, that there's deep affection, there's attraction, but there's never anything that crosses the line into ick. Hmm. Um, and, and that's, you know, one of the, the,

[01:12:11] the many things I think I managed to, to bring to the script. Uh, there are a lot of other, you know, substantial changes that I made. It's interesting that there was a, not perhaps pushback, but a certain hesitancy from Sean to accept that in a sense, because he had spent his whole career trying to distance himself in many ways from James Bond. You don't follow up Diamonds are forever with Zardoz for no reason whatsoever. Um, he, he,

[01:12:40] he did make several attempts to get away from that. And, but I guess there is sort of a comfort in a way of the familiar of, okay, I am the matinee idol. I'm going to walk in and kiss the girl and we fly off into the sunset. Um, so yeah, I, I think the film's better for you doing that and making those changes. Cause I don't think it quite works thinking in, in, in that sort of bond desk, you know, bed him immediately and, uh, dispose of him by the end scenario. Yeah, really not. And, um, uh,

[01:13:11] I think ultimately he was very glad for it. And ultimately he did bring something you don't often see from Sean. And I think, I think his performance is a little underrated in this respect. He brought tenderness and, and a kind of gentleness to that character. There's a scene, which I love in, in the film where, where she's asleep and the covers have fallen off as she's sleeping on his cot bed or something, I think,

[01:13:41] and she's fallen asleep and, and it, you know, a very sexy shoulder and, and, you know, well, everything about her, uh, uh, was sexy at that time. And he, he comes up and he stares down at her and then very gently pulls the sheet over her. Uh, and I love it. I love the tenderness in, in that moment, both in the gesture and, and the feelings you see in his face,

[01:14:13] desire, regret, nostalgia for a time when he'd have been jumping into bed with that girl. And, and, and a dignity of acknowledging that all of those times, were passed. And, um, yeah, I think, I think there were moments that were, where Sean played those feelings really, really beautifully. Well, I think I'm going to bring us to a close with a couple of questions, John, because we've taken up enough of your time. Um,

[01:14:43] sorry, I don't know. Firstly, I, I, I'm like in the intro, I said, Oh, copycat and trapman, some of us be. And of course the man who knew too little, but you're a man has been working, directing films and television for many, many years. You're still doing it today. So I suppose the question I first want to pose to you is one I've posed to quite a few directors over the years. And that is stripping away some of the films, perhaps you do get approached about industry or emails from, from, from nerds like us, uh,

[01:15:08] about what's a project that you've worked on that you're very proud of that perhaps more people should be checking out as following up from watching this and watching some as being watching entrapment. Um, so you'll notice from my resume that, that I've done huge variety of different genres. Definitely. Um, I, I did that deliberately thinking it was very clever of me. You know, I thought, well, I'll do,

[01:15:37] I'll do screwball comedy. I'll do a thriller. I'll do tragic love story. I'll do, you know, serial killer movie. And, and so people will know that, that whatever movie they've got, John Emil could do that. Um, that was a mistake. Hmm. Um, what I think I failed to reckon with is the fact that I was sailing straight into the age of specialization. Right. Um, you know, over here, you know,

[01:16:07] you don't go to an orthopedic surgeon anymore. You go to a knee guy or a shoulder guy. He did, you know, and sometimes you hear, oh, well, he's better with right knees. He's that guy's great with left knees. Um, and so it sort of got to be in, in the film business where, you know, the studio have a script with two men and a dog. And, and they don't want the guy that did the two men and a cat movie. They want the guy that did the last two men and a dog movie.

[01:16:36] It's sort of, um, became rather like that. So in some ways, the studios kind of basically went, John, I don't know. Can, what, what is he? What can he do? So I think the movie going back to your question, Scott, um, um, that I would love people to see is the last film I made feature film called, uh, creation,

[01:17:04] Paul Bettany and Jennifer Connolly, Toby Jones, Benedict Cumberbatch doing, um, a relatively small role. Um, it's, it's not anything. It's not any genre that you would have seen. It's about Charles Darwin, but it's not a biopic really. It's a very emotional portrait of, of a brilliant mind, um, at a point of complete breakdown.

[01:17:34] And, um, uh, I love it. It was, um, it opened the, uh, Toronto film festival to, huge acclaim, got picked up immediately. Um, and then the company that picked it up for distribution got sold to another company who looked at this film and went, you know, Charles Darwin, what am I going to do with this? And they literally dumped it. Um,

[01:18:01] it was put out in two small screens. There was a quarter inch, uh, uh, in a newspaper that if you wanted to find out where it was, and that was about it. Um, so it kind of disappeared without trace. Um, and I think it's a very, very beautiful film. Um, I'm hugely proud of it. Performance is great. And, um,

[01:18:31] I, I think it's, it's quite special. So if, if there was anything I would exhort them to see, see that one. Um, yeah, um, I'm sure I was just looking while she was talking. It's available on streaming, uh, here in the UK. It's available on prime video at this time. So yeah, people can go and check it out by all means. We'll put a link in, we'll put a link in the show notes below. People can make it easy for everyone. So this is the last question now, and this is the one we don't tell people about.

[01:19:02] We'd like to surprise everyone at the end with a bit of a curve ball question, but it is in our remit. We are spy movie experts. And of course you talked about, you know, loving Sean Collier as a kid. I suspect you might be a spy movie fan yourself. We want to know, John, what is your favorite spy movie of all time? I love that reaction. Every day. The head tilted back staring at the heavens. I'm going to say the spy came in from the cold. Um, it's the first one that came to my mind.

[01:19:32] Um, it absolutely haunted me for years afterwards. Um, the ending, one of the most poignant things I've ever seen. And, um, Richard Burton's never been better. Uh, really it was, it was such a, an affecting performance. Um, similar to,

[01:20:00] I haven't seen it since for 30 years, probably, but it, it affected me really, really profoundly. And, um, I think I would, I would have to go for that. If you gave me 10 more minutes, I'm sure I'd come up with 10 more movies, but, but that's the one that really, really kind of springs to mind immediately. I think it's, um, telling. I think it's also very locked into what we've been discussing this entire time

[01:20:29] in the sense of that is a film that evoked emotion from you. You, you could have said, Oh, Goldfinger. Yes. Which is a great thriller of a film, but the spy who came from the cold evoked something from you when you saw it a long time ago. Um, you talk about creation. That was something that evoked something in you, a story that is, is powerful to you. And we talked about how you felt about the man who knew too little. And that was about emotion as well. I think it ties into the conversation beautifully. And I think it is a wonderful pick. Yeah, I agree.

[01:20:57] And it evokes not only emotion, it evokes mood. It evoked mood of a time and a place. Absolutely brilliantly, you know, sixties, East Berlin, um, in, in that black and white photography. And it, it sort of drab and, and bleak and yet so affecting and so much part of the whole atmospherics of the film, because you see, you see this really intense love between Rich Burton and Claire Bloom,

[01:21:27] I think it was. Yeah. bloom in this, in this sort of bleak, stony gray environment. And, um, it, it's, uh, it, it's quite magical to me. It made a very, yeah, very deep impression on me. It's well worth going back to, I will say. Yeah, I think so. Now, now I've been talking about it. I've talked myself into watching it again. Yeah. Uh, it's good. I want to thank you for the time.

[01:21:56] I want to say thank you for taking us all the way from a Sean Connery impression all the way to a very lovely Sean Connery story at the end. It's been wonderful talking to the man behind the man who knew too little John. Thank you for spending the time with us on Spy Hearts. It's been a great pleasure. And I mean that. Thank you. Thank you. There you go, folks. That was Mr. John Amiel. John, if you're listening, thank you for joining us. And if you're listening, thank you for joining us anyway. Yeah, this was a really fun interview.

[01:22:26] And, uh, one of my favorite types of interviews, we've talked about it before, but like these nuts and bolts interviews where we really break down just the entire creation of the movie. And when I was doing my research for the man who knew too little, there was only so much to draw really, because it's a pretty sparse Wikipedia page. You know, if you just start searching for making ofs, pretty thin stuff, not a lot of interviews out there really. And so a lot of the gaps were filled in here by John and, uh,

[01:22:56] a lot of information that we did not know. No. And it's also like, uh, there's a couple of touching moments in there. You, you, you, I mean on the video version on YouTube, you can catch, by the way, you can watch all our interviews now and video on YouTube, subscribe, like, do all that stuff. You see, and if you hear it in the audio version, John gets a little bit emotional at one point about his, what he thinks about his films. And it is rare that we have someone, uh, be that open about their career, about the process,

[01:23:24] about what they put into their work. Uh, and the times that people have in our history, I think we're creating to 150 interviews soon, uh, uh, have been some of the most poignant and some of the most memorable. I always go back to Wendell Woman, one of our earliest interviews, a writer of Firefox, bearing his soul in, uh, on our show. And you just think like the, the, the trust, I, I don't think it's earned, but it clearly must've been. Yeah. I mean, that's always kind of like,

[01:23:54] I don't even say I hope for that when I go into an interview because it's a rarity and it's something you appreciate when it happens. Um, you know, you hope for like great stories, behind the scenes details. You didn't know it just like a really thorough kind of breakdown of the film, um, in question. But when you get those types of moments, that's what elevates them to like a special level. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I think of course also, um, of Denise Richards when she came on and talked about how tough that experience was making that movie.

[01:24:25] And, you know, I think the response to that interview was fantastic. And she talked a lot more about that experience in the wake of that interview we did with her. Yeah. I mean, those, uh, following interviews got way more press than ours did, but ours was, was really the first time she openly spoke about her experiences on the world is not enough to that degree. Yeah. And, uh, much as the history books may not say Spy Hearts podcast broke that story. I know we did. And I'm proud of us for it. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:24:54] But let's talk a little bit about John. I mean, the, it was interesting going into this interview. We recorded it a while ago after, before doing these raps. So it's been a while, but I've edited the episode on YouTube. You've edited the audio sort of recently in our heads. Um, and one thing that stood out to me in thinking back to the experience of doing it is I really threw out a lot of my questions that I had going into it and just sort of, like, vibed my way through the discussion. And one thing that led me down the path of was asking about Bill Murray. And, you know,

[01:25:21] he even told an anecdote about like getting that question in press tours and stuff and how you go. yeah, I loved working with him. What a pleasure it was to work with X. Um, but no, John said Bill was difficult. Like Bill was a handful and Bill now has a reputation for being that, which he has, I'm sure, finally crafted over the years, uh, through his own machinations.

[01:25:45] But I think the point he made was also very astute about how hard it is to just have to constantly be funny, to always be on. Um, and like, you know, you read anecdotes about a lot of Bill Murray's films, about a lot of improv and stuff. I, I see a lot of films now flounder in that same space because I think they just turn to people and go, Hey, comedian actor, give us a joke. And then they have, the camera's on, they have to give a joke.

[01:26:15] So you have to pull something out of your butt. And that pressure must be intense because I'm not saying it's any easier to be an actor reading Shakespeare because God knows I've, I've tried to read Shakespeare so many times. It makes my eyes bleed. Uh, but like, at least you're reading the page. Yeah, this is, this is improv, baby. This is jazz. That is a whole other thing. Yeah. And it's like,

[01:26:38] I think so often we will watch a comedy featuring a comic actor that we really like a lot and the movie falls flat and they aren't very funny in it. And it's this, I think, tendency to turn on them for like, well, why wasn't this funny? I didn't laugh. Well, I think about, um, uh, the spy who dumped me. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And Kate McKinnon is one of the two leads of that, I think. Yeah. And we had the writer of that film on the show. Unfortunately, one of our least listened to episodes, actually, I don't,

[01:27:07] sometimes that just is the way of the world. And then people don't gravitate towards certain things, but it was actually a really interesting discussion, very similar to the one you just listened to. Yeah. Where it was like a nuts and bolts discussion of how that film was written. And the idea behind that film is it must've been a lot of Kate McKinnon jokes, but it wasn't. Yeah. A lot of it was a script. And like, and so like that, that's completely different. And, and that sort of mystique that Kate has just follows her around as if she's just an improv machine. Um, and, and as John points out in this interview,

[01:27:37] like there were some jokes that, that, uh, Bill Murray did come up with, but a lot of it was the script. Yeah. And that's the thing is like a great comic actor working with great, you know, material on the page can make it feel like they're improvising. Cause it feels natural. It feels like it's happening in the moment. And you're just managing to see this magical moment where that comic actor just delivered the perfect punchline or the perfect little odd, little non sequitur moment.

[01:28:05] And a lot of the time those moments have been the kinds of things that whether they're on the page or working with a director, they've come up with in advance of filming, uh, you know, perhaps a scene, these things happen. And it's like, you know, I think of like a movie recently, like the invite, which is fantastic. Olivia wild's film. Um, but like, uh, that movie so often feels like almost improv and, you know, like a lot of that stuff's heavily written into it to make it feel that way.

[01:28:34] And so it's like what, how you can take, like, you know, we obviously talk about Bill Murray and in the episode, the review we did last week, we talked about like, well, Bill Murray's in groundhog day. Oh, and around the same time he's doing larger than life, the elephant movie. Um, one of those is considered a lot funnier than the other. Bill Murray is still a hilarious comic actor, but the material was obviously there for one, not so much the other, or look at like one of the greatest standup comics of all time, Eddie Murphy, you know,

[01:29:04] absolute assassin on like Saturday night live and like, you know, his best films. When you think of like Beverly Hills cop or 48 hours, and then go and see a lot of the strings of duds he made where they're brutal. You can almost feel the flop sweat. And it's just the difference. Pluto Nash, Pluto Nash. It's, it's that difference of someone who is naturally very funny at delivery versus just like coming up with magical ideas, you know,

[01:29:33] off the top of their head at all times of day. And, you know, that's something Bill Murray basically was talking about in that moment. You referenced from the interview where it's like, I'm expected to be funny 10 hours a day. That's really exhausting. Yeah. So when I say, I don't want any green M and M's, I mean, no fucking green M and M's. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. But that, that's something to jump out to me with anything you wanted to make mention of Cameron. One of the interesting things to me was, and this kind of tied into our criticisms of the movie, if you want to call them that,

[01:30:03] which was like, they were, they were, but it's also like we were more observing how the movie played, which was, we found it to be more clever than laugh out loud. Funny. Yeah. But John talked about that where it was this sort of desire to make a film that was witty, but wasn't necessarily like kind of that, like, you know, blow the back of the doors off the theater laugh fest that we were often not necessarily comparing it to,

[01:30:31] but talking about other movies coming out at that time that were very popular. Or prepared for. I think like that's, that was an expectation going into the film is that it wasn't as cerebral as it actually turned out to be. Right. And him talking about how like there was even like an element of British wit that he just felt didn't translate necessarily to American audiences. No. And like the difficulties and kind of like achieving more or less what he set out to do, but maybe like the marketplace wasn't ready for that movie.

[01:31:01] Well, it's the old, like, you know, you're worried about whether you could, you shouldn't, you should have been worrying about whether you should. Right. With this one. And I just think like, because we're recording this in the midst between the review coming out and the interview coming out. So like, I've seen a lot of your feedback online, a lot of people talking about the film in our posts and comments on YouTube and stuff like that. Um, it clearly has a fan base, this film. And one thing, one of the reasons why I think it's sort of achieved a cult status. And I think it, I think John said it's one of the,

[01:31:30] it's either the most or one of the most film, most like mentioned films to him where people go, Oh, you did this. Yeah. Um, you'd think it'd be a trap or something, but it isn't. It's because I think they've designed, wrote and crafted this film for longevity. Yeah. And this, I mean, red alert, you can't go into the spy hearts without a Star Trek reference. One of the reasons like sort of nineties era of Star Trek feels quite contemporary and something like it will stick around for a long time. It's got the language, a lot of the stuff that they do.

[01:32:00] It is written in a way that can continue to play for a very long time. And I think this film is written in a way or a type of comedy that is able to play for a very long time. There are comedies that perhaps are a lot more like knee slapper. Um, that are very of their time. I think about something came out a few years later, me, myself and Irene. I watched that recently. Did we watch it on the Patreon camera or did I just watch it recently? I think you just watched it on your own. Okay.

[01:32:29] Alone in a dark room, but we also watched something about Mary on the Patreon. Again, contemporary comedy, a few years later, but contemporary comedy. Um, that is funnier. Yeah. Oh, yeah, much, but it doesn't hold up. So you know, Mary, Mary. Oh, there's moments. Sure. I mean, comedy ages, but like, there's, there's bits where you're like, you can't. Oh boy. Like, no, but I would say the movie holds up for sure. Oh, I think we both said it. We found it funny. I'm not saying the film wasn't funny,

[01:32:57] but what I'm saying is when you maybe go down that route of like all out comedy, you run the risk of it. Perhaps not being something that can translate 40 years down the road. Whereas they, they made this in more of a broad sense that perhaps will last longer and will have more of a legacy. I don't know, but I'm glad we spoke about it. I'm glad we spoke to John about it. I'm glad we've told the film story. Yeah. I think that this was a really fun journey to go on with this movie that as I talked about,

[01:33:26] was it something I was very aware of, but had never seen. And so it was fun to have this little discovery of, you know, we've had a very spotty history with spy comedies on the show over the course of the run of this podcast. But I think like, this is one that's a really fun sort of like small gym, because the thing is like, people are going to point to top secret Austin powers, like these really noisy spy comedies that have really grabbed a lot of attention over time.

[01:33:55] But this is one that is never going to be like the mainstream favorite, but it's definitely deserving that cult audience. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I think it's one people will like discover. Yeah. Agreed. Maybe through this show, who knows if you're watching or, or, well, watching the man who knew too little for the first time because of us, do leave a review. Whether you get your podcasts or on YouTube or, or, or on letterbox or something like that, just saying spy hard sent you there. I'd like to catalog our influence.

[01:34:26] It'd be nice to see, but thank you all for joining us on this adventure with Bill Murray and John Amiel. It was great to spend some time with this film. I'm glad we got to shine a spotlight on it, but the spotlight must move to a new movie. Cam, what are we talking about next week? Oh, Scott, we are reuniting with the lone wolf for the second entry of the espionage related lone wolf series, uh, films. Of course, most of them were more crime stories,

[01:34:55] but there was a trilogy of spy stories. And so Warren Williams coming back to show us a little bit of counter espionage from 1942. Wolf pack rise again. We're coming back, baby. Howl at the moon. That's right. It's going to be a good time. Join us as we take a look at 1942's counter espionage. Will the lone wolf once again, win our hearts. There's only one way to find out. And that's to join us next week on spy hearts podcast.

[01:35:25] Thank you all for tuning in folks. If you want more spy hearts in your life, if you want to spice up your podcast feed, the only place to be is patrion.com slash spy hearts. I know, I know, I know, I know we talk about it every week, but I also need food every week and, uh, can less so. Yeah. Uh, he just gets a little bit, but I get the most. I like to live well, you see, and I do so thanks to your patronage,

[01:35:54] but also you get a bunch of bonus features. First of all, you just get that old, like warm, fairly warm, fairly warm feeling in your belly of supporting your favorite podcast of looking after us in your own way. But you also get a bunch of bonus episodes too. You get episodes early now as well on the YouTube, and you also get ad free versions. If you're listening to this on Apple podcast right now, it's not ad free. In about two minutes time, you're going to get some ads. Do you know how to get away from that? I mean, yes,

[01:36:23] you could just hit pause. Uh, but another way to do it would be to join us over on Patreon, patreon.com slash spy hearts. That is my cheap plug. Yeah. And we haven't done a lot of Bill Murray, but we did do a Ghostbusters two. That was our Christmas movie last year. one of them that we talked about. So, um, I know there's no shortage of Ghostbusters fans out there. And that episode was a lot of fun. Yeah. If you want to see us, uh, dance around to the Ray Parker Jr. Song or the recycled Ray Parker Jr. Song in the second film. Mm. Yeah.

[01:36:53] You can do it over on the Patreon and, uh, a free way of supporting the show. I don't talk about this at the end of the week, but I'm going to talk about it this time because you're here. You've made it to the end. You're still listening. You nutter. I love you. If you haven't left us a review on whatever podcast app you're listening to, I dare you. I double dare you to leave a review, but it has to be five stars. That's my only, uh, proviso. If you have the function to write a review, we'd love to read your thoughts.

[01:37:22] Let us know what your favorite episode of Spy Hearts was, or let us know what your favorite moment, your favorite interview. Was it this one? Is it this very second right now is your favorite in Spy Hearts history? It could be. Leave us a five star review and we will find out. And the best ones we will shout out on the show. We love a good well-written Apple podcast five star review. Don't we, Cam? We do. We do. We do. But until next week, folks, remember Sean Connery and Cam Smith do have something in common.

[01:37:51] They're both terrible at using computers. This podcast is part of Podomity, the UK's podcast comedy network. Why not laugh at what else we've got? Visit Podomity.com.