The Benny Special (with Joaquin Pedro Valdes)

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[00:00:30] Just like five minutes, just introducing it? I think so. Let's do it as if we're doing this before he comes in. You know, Graham, you say that, but you know this is going to be the cold open. Okay, but we can at least pretend that we are doing this as if we haven't chatted to him.

[00:00:52] We're going to tear up as if, you know, we've got... Yeah. I don't know. I'm losing myself now. You've thrown me by threatening and probably following through with exposing my lies. My throne of lies. Yeah, my bad, man. My bad. You guys are making a podcast.

[00:01:24] But no one asked for this. So, welcome to the podcast nobody asked for with me, Ian Harries. And me, Graham Jones. And this is usually the podcast where we argue about the top three lists of a topic that nobody asked us to talk about.

[00:01:46] But this week, we are revisiting an old episode that we did back on the 25th of February 2021. Oof. Wow. Over five years ago. Half a decade. We are opening old wounds. We are opening old wounds because we tried to figure out our top three movie villains who had a point.

[00:02:13] And we got into a debate about a certain Benny from Rent. Which is his full Christian name. Which is his full Christian name. And we argued for a very long time. I will try and find the screenshot of... Because what we, you know, what we will do. We will double check each other's choices before the episode just to make sure we aren't double dipping. Yeah.

[00:02:41] And I believe I sent my choices to Graham and his response was, Benny, what? Why Benny? And I, yeah, it was an eye-opening experience. One which I do think shaped the podcast moving forward. Yes. Despite Benny being an awful, awful human being, he has had a not insignificant impact on the nature of this podcast. Yeah.

[00:03:06] And as a man who had a point that Graham couldn't recognize, I thought, you know what? It's time for us to get a Benny expert in. And luckily enough, we managed to get Joaquin Pedro Valdez, who has just been cast as Benny in the new West End production, the 30th anniversary West End production of Rent,

[00:03:36] who graciously gave up some of his time to talk through his career up until then. He's about to give up some of his time. Sorry. You're right. You're right. Who is about to give up some of his time to talk us through his career and also hopefully help settle the debate to end all debates. Yeah. We're really, we're really putting him on the spot to, you know, try and basically it's, it's kind of a little bit of, little bit of refereeing, little bit of couples therapy.

[00:04:06] But I think he'll be up to the task. He seems like he's got, he's got a good set of experience. As close as to the horse's mouth we could get. Exactly. So as there's no time like the present or the future, or the future, or the future, or the future. We don't want to keep him waiting either. Yeah. Let's hop on over and talk to Joaquin. This week,

[00:04:33] we are joined by a man who has played a Burmese scholar, a high ranking officer of the Vietnamese communist government, a lion, a dead gay son, an anime character, maybe a frog, but I'm not actually sure if you are a frog in the frogs. And now most importantly, a landlord. So it is actor, director, and former boy band member, Joaquin Pedro Valdez. Hey guys, thanks for having me.

[00:05:01] That is probably one of the best intros I've ever had ever. There we go. Nailed it. That's the amount of like double check. Cause it sounds like really surreal when it's written out. So the amount of stuff I had to double check. It's like, yeah, no, he definitely, definitely here. He was definitely that character in Heather's. Yeah. He was definitely in. I know, I know we're here to talk about rent, but the death note music. Yeah. That's so fucking cool. Yeah. Yeah. That was pretty much cool.

[00:05:30] That was pretty much like that came as a surprise. I think we, we did the concert three years ago. So death note, the musical has had such an interesting canon of like a history. Because the origin of that is Frank Wildhorn got committed. I'm a big musical theater guy. He wrote Jekyll and Hyde. He wrote, he wrote Bonnie and Clyde and other musicals that have two names with an ampersand. And, and he got commissioned by,

[00:05:58] he's found like this career in writing musicals in East Asia, particularly in like Korea and in Japan. And out of the blue, one of the producers in Japan kind of said, would you be interested on his flight back to the States? They gave him a brown envelope, which is very Japanese, to read on the plane. And he opens the brown envelope and it's, it's death note, right? They have,

[00:06:27] the producers had the license to death note, which I knew, like I knew from the manga and I knew from, yeah. Um, uh, and this was ages ago, like probably almost 10, 11 years ago. And he flew back. And then he tells his son, look, they're asking me to do a musical on death note. And his son was like, you would be the coolest guy ever. So he did a demo recording, uh, with big Broadway stars in 2014,

[00:06:55] just to not to be released at all. Um, he did a demo and then for some reason it leaked onto YouTube and Tik TOK and people were obsessed with it, but that demo was primarily so it could be translated into Japanese so that Japan could do a version of it. And that lives rent free amongst all the fans. So Japan, it became a big hit in Japan and then it became a big hit in Korea. Um,

[00:07:25] and yeah. And then three years ago I got phoned to do the English language premiere of death note. Uh, and by this time there had been two generations of fans of it. The ones that grew up with a manga and the anime and the ones that, um, found its virality on Tik TOK and YouTube based on the bootleg of leaked demo. Um, that's very Deadpool.

[00:07:55] Yeah. It's wild. I mean, there's such a cannon to it. So when we did the musical and we, that was bonkers. Cause like, it's never been done in English before. It was a big deal. People want to hear it in English with Asian actors on stage, uh, playing these Asian characters. We had Adam Pascal. This is where the cannon kind of goes in. Adam Pascal, who was the original Roger and rent. Yeah. Played. I played light and he played my Shinigami Rick, um, the iconic demon of death. Um,

[00:08:25] and it was, it was wild. It was so good. Um, and what really caught me by surprise was how much love there was for it. Um, and we sold out in five hours. As soon as they announced that tickets were open to sell, we sold out in five hours. Um, um, the three shows at the London palladium, which was my, like the biggest audience I've ever performed in. Um, and then perform two. And then because they sold out another West end venue, the lyric theater,

[00:08:54] not too far down the road, um, said we have an opening. So we did seven more shows. So we did a total of 10 shows of this concert version, which was kind of fully staged as well with costumes and everything. Yeah. And I never felt more like Paul McCartney coming out. Like you go out a stage door and the queue for your signature amongst everybody, like dressed up in cosplay was around like two blocks. It was one. That is crazy. It was,

[00:09:24] it was absolutely bonkers. And now it's, it's running at the bar again. It has a big following now. It's, it's pretty cool. That's really good. It's interesting as well. You talk about the two, like two generations coming to it. Cause that must be very similar with what's happening at the moment. Right. With, with rent. Cause I think it's, it's definitely a lot of people. I think that will be coming to it now when I've seen the original or maybe have grown up with it. And obviously, you know, we've, we've, we've loved it for many years, but I'm sure it's, is it,

[00:09:51] I think I've seen a couple of videos kind of saying that really trying to tailor it to the, to now, right? Cause it's very, it's very 90. It's very of its time when it was made. I think, I think that's, what's exciting. And that's, what's like, scary for some of the old OG rent heads. They're like, they don't want to change a lot because they fell in love with it so much. And people have tried to change it over the years. And I don't know. I don't know if we should talk about the other versions of it. I haven't seen it, so I have no opinion of it. Um,

[00:10:21] I've seen the original version and I loved it. Um, but I think people are so protective of it because it made such an impact to them back then. And what I love about Luke Shepard, our director and the creative team he's assembled is there is a lot of love and respect for that version. They are the number one fans of that version. So while there's language in, you know, in selling the show as a rent for the new generation,

[00:10:49] I think what's going to be retained a hundred percent is the spirit, the heart, the vibe of it, whatever made you fall in love with the original version, we're going to retain that. So while the staging might be new, um, the approach to the text might be a little bit new because it's different actors playing these, these roles that we know, um, and these characters that we know the heart and the vibe and, and what we loved about the original version will stay true. Yeah. I think that makes sense. Like that there's a,

[00:11:19] there is a right way to change a kind of beloved classic and a very, very wrong way to do it. Right. I understand. I think especially with, um, cause it's not fair that just one generation got a rent. Like I think everyone deserves one. A hundred percent. And I think I haven't seen since back then, and I don't want to reveal my age too much, but since that version, I haven't seen another like new version.

[00:11:48] Cause that version that was directed by the original creative team in New York kind of stayed through throughout all the years. Like it toured, it toured the States, it toured the UK, that's kind of the aesthetic that it was, it was, um, living on for the past, like maybe I would say arguably two decades. Um, so in terms of having a brand new revival of it, a true revival of it, we haven't seen it. And I think it's a perfect time to do it.

[00:12:16] 30 years in a brand new generation who's loved it. Like it's going to be so exciting. And there's a lot depressingly. I mean, there's a, there's a lot of themes that still hold true as well. Right. Even 30 years later, which is, uh, yeah, which is a shame, but at least you can kind of give a voice to voice to that as well. I mean, I think that's, that's what art does. Right. Like, yeah, yeah. That lasts long. It's just, it's good. I mean, how many movies that were made in the seventies have,

[00:12:46] have sustaining themes? Um, if not like even more potent themes now. I was going to say that they're still showing that scene from the great dictator. And that came out in like the thirties. Like I do, I really wish one day we get to a point where we can go, Oh yeah. It's not actually relevant now. Like there's no, you know, it'll be like a fun retro throwback or something. We can literally laugh about it. But I think it's, I think that's not going to be,

[00:13:14] that's not going to happen because we're human beings. And human beings are stupid. We keep doing the same things over and over again. Like, you know, so. Yeah. That, that is, that, that is exactly the main issue. We, we, we've, we fixed it. We've summed up humanity in nine minutes into an interview. We're going to keep repeating the same mistakes. And that's why art holds through because it holds a mirror up against society and humanity. And that's why themes are universal.

[00:13:44] And they last long because they still, I mean, Shakespeare literally until now is still, you know, yeah. It talks about the same thing. I would, I would love to talk to Shakespeare and explain to him that one day one of his plays is going to be lions. Like it's, yeah. See, everything comes back around full circle. Everything comes back around. But yeah, just trying to, just try to explain, like, first of all, you have to explain what animation is anyway, potentially have to explain what a lion is.

[00:14:14] But yeah, it is, no, it's very, very interesting. But I mean, how do you, like we said, like, so rent is obviously, uh, it's one of like, I think the big, like kind of cornerstone musicals, right? There was, I think, especially in when it came out, there was kind of like before rent. And then there is after rent. And as you kind of like hinted yourself, like people hold it in very, very high esteem. Um,

[00:14:43] so how do you approach like, you know, being given Benny and told, this is yours now. Fresh years ago. I think when, when I got the call that I booked it, I was literally on a train going to my evening shift. Cause I was working for an app house for another theater. Yeah. Ready to pick up rubbish and clean the loose and, um, pour some drinks to patrons who are, who sometimes are rude and sometimes are very kind. Um, and I found that I was like,

[00:15:12] this is so like meta right now. I'm going to a theater and I, I've booked a West End gig. I can't talk about it. And, and it's one of the best shows ever that's been written. Um, and there's a lot of mystique and, and, and love and romance around not just rent per se as a show, but the creation of rent because Jonathan Morrison, obviously, um, infamously passed away before he actually opened the show.

[00:15:41] And people consider rent as well as kind of semi unfinished because they always kind of harken back to what, if Jonathan was still alive, when previews happen and what, what other changes would have been, would he have wanted to incorporate, um, throughout previews and press. One of which, um, um, I think I heard this from a friend, um, saying that there's a real possibility that he would have wanted to flesh

[00:16:10] out the whole Benny Mimi relationship as well. Yeah. because that happened so quickly in the story. Um, so yeah. And, and all of that. So like, I think when I found out it was just like, okay, I need to approach rent with fresh ears and fresh eyes. Um, I, I did what every rent head would have done. I listened to the soundtrack again and just remembered why I loved it.

[00:16:38] I listened to it from top to bottom from tune up one until the very end. Um, and just remembered why I love it. Uh, and why I was a fan of it before I go deeper into it and start to really, you know, you know, comb through it with a, with a fine comb and just investigate the text. But yeah, that's what I did. Um, because I want to honor that. I want to honor why, I want to honor why people love it. I want to honor why I loved it in the first place. Yeah. It's,

[00:17:07] it's interesting. Actually, you talk about like the soundtrack as well, because I listened to, I listened to a lot of music and there's the odd musical theater album that I'll drop in to it, but nothing I come back to like the rent. And also it's like start to finish whenever I listen to it, you go the whole way through. It's not, you can dip in and out obviously, but like, it's just, I don't know. There's, there's just something,

[00:17:34] there's something about it that just brings me back over and over again. I'm, I'm really, really, I don't know if, if there's part of it that hasn't translated to like mass appear in the UK. It's obviously very American, very New York and whether or not that's part of the reason, but I personally have never had a chance to see. I know there was like the 2007 thing, which is maybe the thing you were, yeah. We don't talk about that. We don't talk about that.

[00:18:04] We'll beep that one out. I will actually beep that out. But, but yeah, so I'm really excited to finally get to kind of see on the stage as well, because I've, I've watched the movie a ton of times, listen to the news, listen to the soundtrack, but yeah. First opportunity to, to really see it come to life. Really, really looking forward to it. And I think when it, when it came out in 90, 96, it kind of became,

[00:18:34] it was such a zeitgeist at that time. There was, there was a thing that was happening in culture in New York. It kind of flipped the finger to the whole industry of musical theater. And it took the boldness of this literal like Bohemian, Jonathan Larson, who was kind of an outsider from the very high, you know, high society, elitist kind of musical theater world.

[00:19:02] Where in musical musicals, was only a certain kind. And he wasn't even, he wasn't a hundred percent of fan of musical theater. He loved Sondheim. He loved Rogers and Hammerstein. But he wanted to bring this new voice, which I think at that time, the industry wasn't ready for. And then he was like, fuck it, let's go. Yeah. And it, it just exploded. They, because of rent and because of the popularity of rent, they also pioneered on Broadway,

[00:19:31] this whole lottery system, wherein they, they, they, because ticket prices were also high back then, very similar to now. They did this whole lottery system where people would literally, because people were camping out at 4am to get a ticket into the show. So they, they said, we'll do a lottery system. So that it makes it, makes that kind of queue easier, which they've applied to a lot of the shows until now. Also,

[00:19:57] I think rent at that time was kind of changed musical theater and opened this door into what we know musical theater to be now. Um, that sound, a lot of contemporary, what they call contemporary musical theater composers kind of will always be in that long shadow that Jonathan Larson cast. Cause now musical theater can be rock. It can be hip hop. It can be soul. It can be R and B. It can be all of these, um,

[00:20:24] genres of music that we like to listen to on the radio. Whereas prior to that musicals sounded a certain way and only a certain way. Does that make sense? Yeah. And now all of the musicals are like, they sound like pop songs and they sound like R and B songs. And, um, they just take Hamilton for example, right? Well, that's what they said. Like rent in 1996 is essentially what Hamilton was 10 years ago. Yeah. Um,

[00:20:52] and the zeitgeist that Hamilton created as well. So it's, it's so interesting. Yeah. It's cause I, I think that's a good way of putting it. If like, so before rent musical was also kind of a genre of, like you said, everything was, you would have your big, big dance number. Cast would be huge, which then is hugely alienating and means ticket prices have to be really high. Anyway, blonde girls, tits and teeth. Yeah. Everybody like that's, that's the musicals, you know, jazz hands and all that. Yeah.

[00:21:22] It's, um, as, as I mean, as you know, very obviously I'm into louder, um, more guitar driven music. So I'm very glad it's, uh, opened the way to that being a thing of musicals as well. Yeah. It's, I mean, I think what's exciting about our production, I'm not sure if I can say it, but I don't think it's really, I don't think it's really a secret yet. Um, well, I don't know when this is coming out anyway. Um, what's exciting is we're going to have the band with us on stage. Oh, awesome. That's so cool.

[00:21:52] We're going to have the band with us on stage and they're not going to be in a pit and they're not reading music. They're going to be memorizing the whole show top to finish. Wow. With us. So they're as much as part of the show as we are. And because of the configuration of the set, which I haven't seen, but what I've heard based on, uh, available sources, um, is that the audience are going to be with us on stage as well. Interesting. So it's gonna,

[00:22:22] it's gonna change the whole Tom Stoppard theater into something really intimate, which is so exciting. And I think that's the energy that we want for this show. Yeah. That, that I'm really excited about this. It's going to be, it's going to be awesome. Uh, yeah. Okay. So I think we've covered rent a lot. Um, so to dive more into Benny, our thing at the podcast, nobody else for is top three lists.

[00:22:51] So many, many a moon ago, uh, we did a top three of villains who had a point. And as you kind of said, before we, we hit record, I didn't realize this was really a debate. I, I assumed everybody was on my side that many, though you can't, you know, he's not a nobody in rent. I would say as a heroic character,

[00:23:17] apart from potentially actually no one in rent is really a heroic character. Everyone's got their own like shades. And that is what the wonderful thing that humanity is. Um, yeah, but I argued that Benny kind of had a point. Graham then very nearly stopped talking. And we have been friends for going on. I mean, 20 plus 22, 23 years. Yeah. More than I'd care to admit. Yeah. Um,

[00:23:44] and it was the first time we had like a proper, proper disagreement. Oh, wow. Our, uh, podcast suddenly went half an hour longer because we properly got into it. Um, which is also where we realized people don't care if we talk for a long time, which is entirely to blame the fact that the podcast has ballooned into what it is today. That's brilliant. So we thought we would bring you on as our, uh, resident Benny expert to kind of get your,

[00:24:14] your take on it. And kind of before we like, we'll, we'll kind of run through what kind of our, our points were, but you aren't the first person we have asked this question to. Oh, wow. So, for our live show earlier in the year, we thought it would be fun to get like a celebrity cameo video. Um, and as part of that, we got them to introduce us, but also asked what their view on Benny was and whether he is a villain. So that video should play here.

[00:24:43] apparently you argued on an episode. So if you've already had an episode, this would be your first live episode in front of people. Anyway, um, if Benny's a villain, what do I think? Benny, Benny's not a villain. Benny, uh, though I do think, um, doesn't handle a very challenging situation very well. Um, understandable. He's got a lot of pressures, but yeah, he's, um, but yeah, I don't think that he necessarily, uh, is being very nuanced in his approach. That's brilliant.

[00:25:12] That's amazing. Wow. We also asked, and this is, this is interesting because, yeah, because there's material, uh, on the internet about you. I know a weird amount about you, given this is the first time we've actually spoken. So you've, you've, not sounding stalker. Yeah, exactly. I hope you didn't, I don't, I hope you didn't go to the dark web, man. I don't know what's out there. So you've lived here for like 10 years. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:40] So I don't know if you would even know who this is, but we also asked this guy. As for Benny, the rent, or Benny from rent. Sorry. Never heard of it. Have a great day guys. Have a good. So that is Paul Chuckle from the Chuckle brothers, which is a very big thing for British kids under the age of 12 who grew up in the 90s. I don't know them. I don't know him, man. It's all good. He, he, he doesn't know who Benny is either. So we're,

[00:26:10] we're, we're at an even, we're at an even. I love this. I love this. But yeah, we love, we love Anthony Raff as much as the next man, but we didn't think he quite got to the crux of it. So like, he was sitting on the fence, but like, I can't stress just how, so I think when the news broke that you'd been cast as Benny, I think Graham was on holiday and I was at a, my chemical romance gig. And my phone,

[00:26:38] my phone was completely unable to get signal. When I left, I had so many messages from people forwarding the announcement of, you being cast as Benny going like, you could ask him now. It's like, yeah, you know what? We could. So, um, I'm fairly sure I messaged you while waiting for my friend to leave. It was really quick. Yeah. Not long, not long after the announcement, I got a message from you guys. It's, we take, we, we take this stuff seriously, man.

[00:27:07] We take this stuff seriously. Uh, but yeah, so it was, it's, it's always funny for me when there is a debate that you don't realize is a debate and you accidentally fall into the middle of it. Yeah. So I, I mean, I, I could kind of start. So my, my, my whole thing is based around one, obviously very loudly. Everybody in rent has their shades of being an awful human being. Um, but also a lovely,

[00:27:36] incredibly loving human beings as well. Benny did let his friends live rent free in the building. That's pretty a good point. And I, I think for, and not just in any building, not just in any building in frigging New York, in Manhattan, in New York, in a, in a very, I forgot how nice the apartment was when I rewatched rent today. I was going, I was going to message Graham, but I didn't want to argue before we'd even started recording. Right. So yeah, rent free.

[00:28:06] His plan is to build a huge art space that all of them would be able to take advantage of and enjoy, which as artists, um, even if one of them famously took a year to write a song would be a particularly kind of like good thing. Right. Um, he paid for, uh, rehab. He paid for funerals. Um, his dog died. Like there's a lot of,

[00:28:32] I think like things which would make Benny decide to do what he did without it. Just him actively trying to screw his friends over, which I think some people position it as, um, Graham had his thoughts, which include the phrase, fuck Benny and fuck you. Correct. Let's hear it. I want to hear Graham, Graham's, Graham's sign of it. Right.

[00:29:02] So yes, he did have a, it was a year of rent, rent free, but then not only, it was, uh, it was, uh, 1 million 51,200 minutes. Cause I made the joke of that on the podcast. Nice. Um, but is it really free? When then a year later, you decide that you're going to hold them to ransom, to pay that all back in one lump sum, unless again,

[00:29:29] then it gets politically motivated because he's basically saying that he'd, he'd let it slide. If they stop a protest, right? That this, this is, this is all, this is levels and levels of, you know, he's getting deep into the quagmire of the money that he has got to, not through his own, you know, talent, not through his own, um, enterprising ways, but by marrying in to a particularly rich family and just kind of,

[00:29:59] and then like you say, yeah, he's done all these things. He's paid for a bit of, um, rehab here and this, that maybe be a decent person and don't kind of like your checkbook. Isn't your morality here. That is, that is a poor, poor assessment here. Also Christmas Eve, he padlocks the building. I, I forgot about that until today. Um,

[00:30:26] probably a coldest night of the year as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, what else? Um, yeah, I think that's, I think that's my main ones. Um, he has notes. He has main ones. Yeah, we'll, we'll go with that for now, but yeah, I think absolutely. He's, he's not. And also like, so he bought the building. This is what I mean. We're kidding. This is what I mean.

[00:30:57] Of all of the things he comes into all this money and that's the building that he decides to buy. And then hold people to ransom over. He's not gone elsewhere. He's gone. He's, he's very much attacking the people that he was, he was one of them. Well, anyway, I mean, you, you can argue though, you can argue though, that that was prime real estate, that it was a nice building that they, uh, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're right. You, you are. It could have been that. I mean, yeah, it was like,

[00:31:26] who cares if it screws all your friends over? Who cares? All right. Um, where do I begin? Like this is really good character, character study for me, guys. It's really, really helpful. I'm going to go into rehearsals really prepared. Um, or just really, really self-aware. Um, ah, why do I begin? Yeah. I, I mean, every story,

[00:31:53] particularly in a rock opera that it needs to end within, you know, two and a half hours every night, you need a villain. You need someone to kind of take the brunt of all of the hate and vitriol to kind of get the thought forward. So I'm looking at it as, as that as well, but in the genius of Jonathan Larson, he's written these characters. All of them are unlikable, all of them. Um, and like what you said, there are parts of them that you want to love,

[00:32:21] but then there are also parts of them that make them super imperfect. Um, and I think I said this in another, like interview, I've been through a lot of the male characters. Like I was Mark at one point, um, cause I was a filmmaker, uh, in a, in another life. And, and then I went, I became a Roger where it was always about my art. I'm going to follow my dreams, even if I'm starving or whatever. And then now I'm kind of like a Benny. I mean, living, living in London is hard.

[00:32:51] And you, you, you kind of go into that self-reflection of like, wow, is my moral and my artistic integrity, like paying off? Or I just need to survive. If it's me taking a job that will really like be artistically questionable, um, or even more morally questionable, um, but make, but feed, feed me and, and put heat in the room and, but, you know, make me survive another month in London.

[00:33:21] Is it worth it? You know what I mean? So yeah, I mean, I, this debate can go on a very long time because there's so many arguments from all. But would you padlock your friends out of their house? But see, my, I guess my question to, to Ian would be what would make Benny, what would be the,

[00:33:48] the moral or artistic thing for Benny to do? Um, without, but being practical as well. And my question to Graham would be, what's the ideal? You flipped the script here. I wasn't prepared to answer questions. I, I think it is. Yeah, it is very interesting. Cause I think they are, there, there is a very, I think like one dimensional reading. Well, there's a one dimensional reading of anything. Right.

[00:34:17] And I think people put, um, characters like Benny just into, like you said, they are the, they're definitely the antagonist of it. Like I'm not arguing they're not, but they'll often just go, right. They're the villain. We're not supposed to like them. That's it. Everything they do is therefore wrong. And we're supposed to side with these, people. And I think rent is so much more complicated because there isn't like, there's, there is a lot of moral thing.

[00:34:42] Like you could argue that there was kind of like altruism and trying to improve the community and that kind of thing to his argument, but, or to his point, but also he did it to the detriment of all of his close friends who were there with him. Through like the, what I'm assuming was a pretty shit experience living with a load of people in a place. I'm assuming they were borderline squatting in at the time. Um, so I think there's, but I,

[00:35:10] my argument is I think if there's a lot of nuance to it, you could argue he has a point. So I think that's where I'm kind of sitting on it. But didn't, didn't he try to kind of fix things after? Yeah, he tried, but then like, I mean, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. He tried. He tried to fix things, but because he's already, you know, when you hate a guy so much and you decided that he's on the other side,

[00:35:39] nothing that they can do will actually change your perception. And I think there was a port, there's a portion in the show. There's a moment in the show where, and he's like, look, I'm, I want to make amends. I get it now. After I see, I saw the protest. I get it. I get it now. I want to make amends, but anything he does now, it's just snowball. He's just digging a deeper pit, at least to the view of Mark and Roger and everybody else. Plus he's now sleeping with Mimi. So it just makes it every,

[00:36:07] it makes you fall at this point in the show, you're already falling in love with Roger. So you're like, what, what's going on? So yeah, it's hard. Yeah. Very, very hard. It's interesting though, that you mentioned about the kind of like unfinished nature of the, the original Don Larson version of this and whether or not, like what, what would have, what else would have been explored? Yeah. Relationship as well, because maybe that adds some more nuance to this whole thing. And I think, you know, you talk about the ideal. I think for me,

[00:36:36] I get kind of the approach of like getting out of this life, like, you know, trying to make something yourself, but it's the, the bit that ruins it is at the expense of those people that are closest to. Yeah. That's the bit I can't get past. Turns out, you know, if Ian ever makes it big, I'm, I'm pushed to the side straight away. He's, he's locking me out of the podcast on Christmas Eve. Just locking our socials, sticking a padlock in the chair. See ya. I think there's,

[00:37:05] there's a part of me that, that, that feels, or maybe it's my romanticism. There's a part of me that feels that Jonathan Larson wrote himself in every single character. And I think, yeah, Benny is the sellout. Yeah. Benny is the, you know, he was the artist before. I, I kind of envisaged him as like a, if he was part, I like thinking or imagining what their life would have been like before when they were all friends, him,

[00:37:35] you, me, Colin, and, you know, Maureen, Mark, and he, he loved these people. And he was probably the guy that was putting up gig posters. He was probably like the graphic artist. You know, he was probably like the, the designer of the, you know, those, the, the gig posters that you put up on, on the side of the wall. And, you know, and that kind, and then he, he got a taste of money and advertising. And now he's schmoozing with, you know, high society in New York and he falls in love with Allison. And, you know, he has a dog.

[00:38:05] And, um, also on a side note, people kind of forget that Angel killed his dog. I, sorry, told you, Graham. Didn't like, didn't, didn't intend or didn't realize it was, it didn't kill the dog cause it was his dog, but got hired as, as a dog hit woman, a drum based dog hit woman to murder. I feel,

[00:38:35] I feel more of that is on the Akita than on Angel, right? If you can't put up with a few drum beats, you're going to throw yourself off of a, an apartment building in New York. Like, I think that, I think the dog had deeper seated problems. I don't know. I don't know if we can really blame Angel on that. But she got paid. So fair, fair play. It's a hustle. Decent amount as well. But yeah, hustle. Yeah. It's a hustle. But yeah, it's, it's all of that. I think,

[00:39:05] and I think what's, what's going to be magical and really special about, and you can kind of see it in how the show is written. Is I'm very much like a geek in terms of like the form is the message. And, you know, um, seeing all of them come together to sing seasons of love at the start of act two, seeing all of them come together to sing no day, but today, I think there, there might have been, or I'd like to imagine that there was a world where Jonathan Larson was saying like,

[00:39:34] this is all of us, all of our imperfections, all of our beauty, all of our hope. All of our mess, all of our villainy, all of our doubt, all of our fears, all in one. And we just kind of just need to embrace all of it. And that's what makes us who we are. Yeah. I like that a lot. I really like what you said as well about like, I think I don't want to admit being a Roger at any point,

[00:40:04] but there's definitely, definitely times where I think I have been an aspect of every single character, which I think goes to show what you said about, you know, writing, writing a part of himself into each one, because even if I think things could have been, there are definitely things about, you know, like the story that could have been rounded out or, you know, who knows in the grand scheme of things, what would have happened. If he was still around, but like,

[00:40:33] even then, like the characters still feel so real just from the small kind of little glimpses we get of like, you know, the day-to-day life and things like that. I mean, Mimi, Mimi and him kind of hooking up again. And you know, we know Mimi struggle, you know, with substance and it's all, it's so layered. Like, and I never watched La Boheme, which is the opera that it was based on,

[00:41:01] but I'm so interested to see what in that opera really inspired Jonathan Larson. Cause it's, it's all the characters are just so layered and no one is just like two dimensional. Um, and I'm glad that there's, you know, I'm going to send you guys a, someone sent me this Instagram reel of this guy that watched rent for the first time. And the super fan was like, so what did you think of it? And all he said is like, Benny's my favorite character.

[00:41:30] He's the most practical one. I'm going to say it's hilarious. It's absolutely hilarious. And then his takeaway is like, why are they singing about, you know, like it's so funny. Um, but he, his takeaway is like, like, yeah, I, I like Benny because he's the most practical. He was giving them a flat for free. Um, but yeah, I get that as well. Cause sometimes it's like, especially now, I mean, you, you want to fight for what's right. You want to get that voice heard. You want to not,

[00:42:00] not, um, you know, shortchange your integrity and your, your morality. Uh, but also you need to survive. So, I mean, all of that is so layered and so beautiful. I think that, I think that's in going back to kind of all the nuance and stuff about the characters and, and talking about rent kind of changing me. I mean, it certainly did for me. Like I haven't seen it. All the musicals that have been made. I've seen a fair, a fair few. And, um, it,

[00:42:29] I don't ever really, and this may be doing a complete disservice to people that are much more into musical theater than I am, but I don't ever really remember seeing anything that is, that has that level of kind of character development and subtleties and nuance and stuff. Like you watch in Greece, no one's thinking of the scorpions, the bad guys, right? Like that's, that's, that's pretty obvious. Danny Zuko is a good guy. They're the bad guys. But did they have a point, Greg? Did the scorpions have a point? Did they have a point? At Thunder Road?

[00:42:59] Um, yeah. Um, yeah. So I think that's, I think that's why, I think that's why it sticks with me so much and why we'll keep coming back to it. Um, and why I'm really excited to see this, uh, new version that you're in as well. So, um, yeah. And also I've never, I've never had a debate like this about any other musical character. So I think it, I think it, it kind of, yeah, it reinforces that, um, just how special a piece of theater is.

[00:43:26] Like you were mentioning about like it being multi-generational. I think people who loved it, we all loved Rent because we were those kids. And I say kids because Mark, Roger, they were kids. They had their dreams. They wanted to be, they wanted to create a song and not sell. Mark wanted to make films and not sell out. And constantly throughout the show, that's his struggle. Should I sell my film? I got an agent and all that. Roger wants to be so pure in his art and he wants to find real,

[00:43:55] a real muse and Mimi and everybody meet Maureen. Like everybody's just going through this battle, this internal battle of what is pure passion and what is a hundred percent practicality. And we're, we're thinking that that's always clashing. And, but as you grow up, I mean, obviously I think you guys are artists as well. As you grow up, literally maturing and understanding who you are and understanding how the world works,

[00:44:22] that black and whiteness of passion and practicality kind of starts to blur. Yeah. Yeah. Cause now we're worrying about other people, especially if you're married or, you know, if you have a partner, if you have kids, you know, you don't want to let go of yourself being an artist, but also you need to survive in this really cruel, you know, capitalist world. And that's, that's why the show is universal. I think it's going to last a long,

[00:44:51] long time because it still talks about something really prevalent. Yeah. So I, I mean that I feel feels like a good way, a good time to segue out. So when's it starting? Where can people go and see you? And what have you got coming up next? So the 30th anniversary of rent in the West end. I, I'm, I get so tickled saying that that's incredible. It opens on the 26th of September at the Duke of York,

[00:45:19] which will be called the Tom Stopper theater. So it's in a transition, which is also pretty cool. Cause I think I've seen plays at the Duke of York. And then I think rent will be the first show in its new name as the Tom Stopper theater, which is really exciting. It's an incredible cast. We got a gate to Matarazzo who was a proper musical theater kid, but got really famous with stranger things. Yeah. And, and this whole bunch of incredible, incredible talent,

[00:45:49] all of which I've seen on stage and I'm a big fan of. Um, yeah, we start on the 26th of September, uh, and it runs for, uh, a good chunk until March. Um, it's been announced, so it's extended until March. So hopefully we'll see you guys there in the theater. A hundred percent. But yeah, I mean, uh, thank you for joining us. Thank you for at least attempting to, I don't know who won. I don't think anyone won. Um,

[00:46:18] I think that's the debate will live. The rule rage on. Yeah. I just hope that you don't lose your friendship. please don't. It's not worth it. Um, yeah. So I think, I think nobody won. sums up rent quite well, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Like it does, it does seem to be, uh, how that ends. Maybe on, maybe if you watch on a Monday, I'll lean toward Ian. Maybe you watch on a matinee on Friday, I'll lean toward Graham. So I don't know.

[00:46:47] It might change every night. I'll bet I might when we book out tickets. It might change every night. We will, we will see. We will see. But yeah, no, I really appreciate the time. Thank you so much guys. And that was our conversation with Rakeem. How you gonna pay? Gotta love Rope. It's, I, so I, as we said, I rewatched it today in preparation for our interview, because I am, if nothing, a professional. I forgot just how good some of the songs are. Yeah.

[00:47:15] I think every time I watch Rent, I forget just how good it is. What would you, gun to your head now? What, what, what would you pick as your favorite song? Gun to your head, Ian. Gun to, gun to my head. A lot of time for Santa Fe. Okay. I like that. Yeah. Very low. And I'm going to probably expose myself for not knowing much about technical, musical things, but very low baritones in there. I believe so. Potentially.

[00:47:46] He's got such a good voice. I fucking love it. He was in, um, Flash. Yeah. Let's put that out there. Um, cause there's a string that are really, really good. Like, don't, don't get me wrong. Like the whole, like all of the songs are great, but there's a string where it's out tonight, Santa Fe, I'll cover you, La Vivo. La Vivo. I think is like, is the, if I had to only pick one, I think it's La Vivo. Ah, Take Me or Leave Me is very good though. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's all like seasons of love,

[00:48:16] right? Like it's, that's the rent song, isn't it? No, very, very true. Um, anyways, in daylight, in sunsets, in midnights, in cups of coffee, how do you measure whether Benny is a dick? by bringing the wonderful Joaquin Pedro Valdez on, um, who was extremely gracious with his time. He was happy to kind of delve into, you know, some of his own personal bits, looking at, looking at some of the work he's been in. I,

[00:48:45] my favorite part of this whole thing was finding out that he got the role whilst he was going to work front of house at another theater. That is amazing. And fair play to the guy for plugging away. And I can't, I can't wait to see him absolutely crush it in the Western. It just goes to show that how absolutely like killer the industry is because again, like I'm, if nothing, but a professional, which also might not be the phrase because I'm bad with phrases. Um, I obviously checked out stuff he'd done before. He's fucking good. Yeah.

[00:49:16] Like, yeah, I, I'm really looking forward to seeing what he does and like the wider cast and things like that. Cause like we said, I think like depressingly rent is still kind of, I think it's valid, which is a shame. Yeah. It's good times. I mean, you know, and I will give, I'll give you all the applaud at Swakini. I think you're a fantastic guest. I can't wait to see you in the show. I will say, you know, you, you, we didn't quite get to the bottom of, of this, uh,

[00:49:47] this debate. I think it still continues to rage. Although I think I have a newfound appreciation for the nuance of, um, of, I will, I, I am, I am more than happy to meet you at nuance. Yeah, we'll meet at nuance. I think we can meet at nuance. I don't think there is, you know, it's, it's the collateral damage and cost of having a point that,

[00:50:15] that does seem to be where we kind of fell down. Yes. But I, I, I liked what Wacoon said about, um, at some point you've been every one of those characters. Yeah. And, you know, they're all trying to do the same things that you talk like, you know, Benny being the one who sold out and then kind of like holding it against him and stuff like that. I think, I think it is far more complicated than our meager 2021 heads may have fully

[00:50:43] comprehended and wrapped our head around. Anthony wraps our head around. Am I right? Um, I see what you did to that. Yeah, I, I, I tend to agree, but I also think having that, having that delving into it in, in the way that we did in that, um, 45 minutes or so we had, I, I think again, it gives me, it gave me a bit of a newfound appreciation for the show. I've always loved the show probably more than any other musical. The fact that the fact that the fact that like I'm picking it and thinking it actually,

[00:51:14] yeah, where else do you get these kinds of like really interesting, flawed characters that all these kinds of, it's not, it's not the norm in musical theater. Now, look, don't go wrong. I haven't seen everything as I mentioned, but like, it just feels like that. Plus like the, you know, the guitar heavy music plus everything else. It's just, it's just so good. I'm, I'm, I'm in two minds as to whether I watch the movie again before, um, going to see the show. I think I probably will cause it's a great movie, but,

[00:51:43] um, yeah, very much looking forward to seeing it on the stage. No, I think you're right. Like musicals for me are definitely one of those, like I've had it more with musicals than like film. Have you ever had that thing where like you're listening or watching to something and it really hits you and you can't quite figure out why? Yeah. I mean, so many, it's kind of the reason we do this, right? Oh, very true. It's true from therapy. Yeah. Um, especially now we're on pedophilia who cover hosting costs.

[00:52:13] But yeah, I just love it as an art form. And you know what? We haven't done enough musical episodes. So I know we kind of like hinted there, um, about hopefully getting, uh, working back. So hopefully we can sort that out, but for anybody who may have discovered us through this interview, uh, so we did again, back in 2021 films that should be remade, made as a musical. Although it was clearly our musical year. We, and, and even weirder.

[00:52:42] So one of our top three is now going to be a musical as of next year. So, um, Lin-Manuel Miranda is confirmed. The Warriors is coming to be this way. Second choice, Life of Brian. And I won't, I won't give away, uh, number one. So, cause you'll have to have to listen back to our back catalog or just scroll through our Instagram where we put the choices. Um, but yeah, we're overdue musical episodes. I think we should get a, get a series of them out. Agree. I'm, I'm, I'm up for that for sure. Yeah. And not to,

[00:53:12] not to skip a good, you know, we might not have had a top three this episode. You know, we might have kind of skirted around, um, uh, kind of the usual format, but let's give people a little taste of what we usually do. Uh, it's time for a movie recommendation. Nobody asked for. I, uh, assume you guys are here for a movie recommendation. No, thank you. Nah, I'm fine. Nah, I'm fine. I'm all right. thank you. Nah, I'm fine. It's all right.

[00:53:42] I'm fine. That's all right. Fuck off. Hmm. Oh, I don't know what that was. Hmm. This episode. Yeah. That was very Yoda. It was. Hmm. Rent it is. Um, Hmm. Love of seasons. Do you do the numbers like Yoda? Fucking hell. I can give it a go. I'm trying to figure out how to get these Yoda'd. 500, 20, uh, 525,600 minutes.

[00:54:13] Nah, I don't know how to do it. Nah, I don't think you actually could do it to be fair. Nah. Is that what you did? I'm going to cut out. You lost in 500,000 seconds. Like I, I lost it. In daylight. Sunsets. So I just, that, that's now just going to be the rest of the podcast. It's us doing songs from rent in the style of Yoda, which the more you do Yoda does just become this piggy. Yeah. You're, you're, science. Yeah.

[00:54:41] It's the same as whenever I try and do a Welsh accent, I end up sounding Indian, which is all kinds of. Yeah. Leave me or take me. Anyway, that was purposefully the, anyway. Yeah. So, um, obviously our movie recommendation, nobody asked for, uh, this time is the 2005 film rent for obvious reasons and something very, a little less musical, but equally as good. Um, if you've seen rent, uh, and you don't want to watch it again,

[00:55:09] go watch midsummer by Ari Aster. Cause it's an absolute masterpiece. Yeah, exactly. And we've recommended it 300 plus times. Uh, so that was our Benny special. It's been a long time coming, uh, again, like we can't thank you enough for kidding really appreciate you had a lot of fun. Uh, and as the man said, uh, tickets are out. They are. Go buy it. It's on from the end of September. It's going to be a fucking blast. It will. And I think, I mean,

[00:55:37] it perfectly lines us up for behind the curtain when we go see it. Um, and yeah, we're keen. Um, we'll get, we'll try and, uh, buy it from you at the stage door or something. Cause I think that's where they, they do these things. Right. Um, I'm using the lingo. I know. Well, we'll stick. Do you think stage door is lingo? Yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah. That's just the name of a door. No, that's, that's lingo. My friend lingo. Okay. All right. It is we are,

[00:56:05] we will catch you on the hippity hop. They say that as well. In the scene. We are, uh, if you, um, enjoy the episode. If you think, we're keen to settle the debate. If you have other views on Benny, you can find us on Instagram at the podcast. Nobody asked for, we're also on threads, blue sky, uh, and our website is www.thepodcastnobodyaskfor.co.uk. It is. Interestingly, I heard some other views on Benny through Ian's microphone, whilst he was discussing something with his wife, whilst we were having a short break, uh,

[00:56:35] which we won't go into. However, uh, maybe we will go into them on Patreon where you get lots of exclusive content. How good a segue was that? My friend, how good a segue, uh, give us a bit of cash, get extra content, get much, get, get the best life you can live. If you are a patron of ours. Exactly. And if you're listening to this and you like what we're doing, please leave us a review. Uh, it really helps get us in front of the right people. Uh,

[00:57:01] we are also doing a live show in October at the cheerful, earful podcast festival. Uh, which is at, uh, Bedford in Balham on a date in October. 18th. 18th. 18th. 18th. Of October. Uh, we aren't a hundred percent sure what subjects we're doing by the time this episode comes out. We will be, be. Well, you said we're not, we're not sure we will doesn't make sense. So I was just filling in your, I was ending your sentence.

[00:57:30] By the time this episode comes out, we will know what topic we're doing. Yeah, but you didn't say that. We got, we've got musical theater fans here now. Yeah. We have to be good. We have to be polished. Well, that's what I was trying. I was trying to polish you in. And I, you always get mad when I do. Always get mad. You're always too vigorous and thorough.

[00:58:05] No one asked for this. This podcast is part of Podomity, the UK's podcast comedy network. Why not laugh at what else we've got? Visit Podomity.com.