Clive Tyldesley on Clough, Fergie, Shankly and more (Pt.1)

[00:00:00] I'm pretty lucky that night, isn't I?

[00:00:02] And Solschar is one that breaks the card and all rule of commentary.

[00:00:07] I've waved the winner across the finishing line before the finishing line has arrived.

[00:00:12] By a minute go down the other end, equalise, it goes through extra time, penalties,

[00:00:17] they win the shootout because they're German and they will win the shootout

[00:00:20] and there is an effigy of me hanging from the Arndale centre before midnight.

[00:00:25] So yeah, you need a little bit of luck.

[00:00:27] Hello and welcome to When Football Began Again, the podcast that takes a nostalgic look

[00:00:33] at the Premier League era.

[00:00:35] Today's show is the penultimate episode in the series

[00:00:38] and the first in a two-part special of my chat with Clive Tildsley,

[00:00:44] the voice of ITV football for the best part of two decades.

[00:00:47] He's called some of the biggest moments this century

[00:00:51] in English football, European football and international football.

[00:00:56] He is an absolute legend of the game.

[00:00:59] I am so delighted to have him on and we're going to get to that interview in a moment.

[00:01:04] First off, if you are new to the show, you are welcome here.

[00:01:08] Thank you for finding us.

[00:01:09] I really hope you enjoyed today's show.

[00:01:11] There is a massive archive of lots of fantastic episodes

[00:01:14] and if you hang around at the end, I will summarise kind of what this show is about

[00:01:18] and point out some of the real highlights in there.

[00:01:21] But we're going to get straight on to Clive today.

[00:01:24] This interview came about because I sent an email by the pool back in August

[00:01:29] when I was in France.

[00:01:31] I emailed Clive Tildsley and got an email back fairly instantaneously.

[00:01:36] He'd watched a video of my stand-up online

[00:01:38] and was very generous about what he saw and said he'd love to have a chat with me.

[00:01:42] I just had the slight problem that I needed to get home

[00:01:45] a week later before scheduling this in.

[00:01:48] So this was recorded in early September.

[00:01:51] He's in preparation to commentate on the opening round of fixtures

[00:01:56] on the Champions League stage for CBS and Paramount

[00:02:00] and he is in great spirits I think.

[00:02:04] Obviously Clive has spoken quite publicly and quite openly

[00:02:09] about how disappointed he was to be let go by ITV

[00:02:13] as their main commentator a couple of years ago.

[00:02:16] Since then, he's been on talk sport.

[00:02:18] He's working with CBS and Paramount.

[00:02:20] He remains one of the most recognisable voices in football.

[00:02:24] I'm sure you'll agree.

[00:02:25] And I've listened to one or two of his interviews as well

[00:02:28] and he is a lot of fun in all of those.

[00:02:31] It's no different here.

[00:02:32] Normally when I interview a guest like this,

[00:02:34] especially someone of Clive's profile,

[00:02:36] I'm really, really respectful of their time

[00:02:38] and say, you know, we'll try and get the interview done in an hour or so.

[00:02:42] Clive was just so generous.

[00:02:44] He's like, don't worry about it.

[00:02:45] I've got a glass of wine.

[00:02:46] I've got as long as you need.

[00:02:48] Which is how the interview turned into two hours.

[00:02:51] I'm calling this part one slash glass one.

[00:02:55] Clive is enjoying a glass of red wine.

[00:02:57] If you're watching this on YouTube, if you are listening along,

[00:03:00] you can just melt into his voice.

[00:03:03] I think it is so recognisable and quite comforting.

[00:03:07] And there are periods of this interview

[00:03:09] where I am just sat just in awe of the great man himself

[00:03:14] telling his stories and telling his tales of an incredible career.

[00:03:17] So in this first part, we cover the early part of his career.

[00:03:21] Some of the legends of the game that he worked with.

[00:03:24] We cover how he came to be at ITV,

[00:03:27] his time at the BBC and really being third in line

[00:03:32] to John Motson and Barry Davis.

[00:03:34] He's got a lot of opinions on what commentary should be

[00:03:38] and maybe where it's going.

[00:03:40] He compares it a lot to stand-up comedy.

[00:03:42] He's a big stand-up comedy fan and we chat about that as well.

[00:03:45] It's a wide-ranging chat.

[00:03:47] He pretty much starts off as well by keeping me on my toes

[00:03:50] about the very concept of this podcast.

[00:03:53] So do keep an ear out for that.

[00:03:55] And also just to say that when I first contacted him about this,

[00:03:58] I wanted to do the deserted island matches format,

[00:04:01] which if you're familiar with the show,

[00:04:03] you will know that I've done that with quite a few big names now.

[00:04:06] Clive didn't want to do that and in retrospect,

[00:04:09] I'm really, really pleased he didn't.

[00:04:11] I think that our conversation wouldn't have been as long

[00:04:14] and it wouldn't have been as interesting quite frankly.

[00:04:16] Clive does not like picking favourites,

[00:04:18] as you'll discover over the two parts of this interview.

[00:04:22] There are a few times where I try and tempt it out of him,

[00:04:25] but we don't always get there.

[00:04:27] So that is another interesting little side plot

[00:04:29] that we explain away quite early on.

[00:04:31] But here it is, my chat with Clive Tildesley, part one.

[00:04:35] Enjoy.

[00:04:39] Hello and welcome to When Football Began Again,

[00:04:42] the podcast that takes a nostalgic look at the Premier League era.

[00:04:46] Joining me today is a man who is fast approaching his half-century

[00:04:50] of an incredible career in football.

[00:04:53] He has called some of the biggest moments at World Cup finals,

[00:04:57] European championships, moments of personal pride

[00:05:00] on various games across the years

[00:05:03] and perhaps most famously of all,

[00:05:06] across Champions Leagues for ITV,

[00:05:08] including two very memorable finals for Liverpool and Manchester United.

[00:05:12] All of that and more coming up very shortly,

[00:05:14] but welcome to the show, Clive Tildesley.

[00:05:16] Thank you for joining me. How are you?

[00:05:18] I can't straight away.

[00:05:20] Nostalgic about the Premier League era?

[00:05:22] How can you get nostalgic about something which has barely begun?

[00:05:26] I'm 137 years old, you know?

[00:05:30] Football didn't begin in 1992.

[00:05:34] It's one of the things that I hate about Premier League statistics, you know?

[00:05:39] So let's sort of disregard the existence of Jimmy Greaves

[00:05:44] and George Best and lots of other wonderful footballers.

[00:05:48] But certainly football changed in 1992

[00:05:52] because it coincides pretty much with the start of Champions League 2.

[00:05:57] It coincides exactly that summer

[00:06:00] with the advent of Sky Sports in our lives.

[00:06:03] So I can understand why 1992 onwards is a separate chapter,

[00:06:09] but I think it's still a little too clean and crisp

[00:06:13] and new to be getting nostalgic about, sorry.

[00:06:16] Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought that up

[00:06:18] and we are going to go back a little bit further in 1992 in a moment.

[00:06:21] But yeah, I think that's true

[00:06:23] and this podcast is a nod to that as an era

[00:06:26] where it did seem that people set the charts back to zero again

[00:06:30] when very clearly the Premier League would not be anything like a successful

[00:06:35] if it wasn't for that rich, rich history of English football.

[00:06:38] We definitely acknowledge that on the show as well.

[00:06:41] I mean, Clive, I don't want to start off too sycophantically,

[00:06:44] but when I first started this podcast,

[00:06:46] I wrote down a list of my dream guests.

[00:06:48] Your name was on it.

[00:06:49] I'm absolutely delighted to have you on the show.

[00:06:52] I was initially going to...

[00:06:53] The fee was really, really low then.

[00:06:55] I mean, we needed...

[00:06:57] The Saudis have arrived on the scene now

[00:07:00] and, Carl, you've got to be matching their kind of offers

[00:07:04] before I can even consider coming...

[00:07:07] Obviously this estate goes on for many miles.

[00:07:10] I have acres of acres.

[00:07:11] I have three golf courses, I think.

[00:07:13] So listen, 50,000 pounds is a lot of money

[00:07:17] and I thank you for it.

[00:07:19] We agree cash yet,

[00:07:21] but it really is a mates' right, that, if we're honest.

[00:07:24] It's on its way

[00:07:26] and in another 30 years' time

[00:07:28] when someone is launching a podcast

[00:07:30] about the first 30 years of the Saudi League,

[00:07:32] we'll know that the game has truly gone.

[00:07:34] But in the meantime...

[00:07:35] We're talking about the Saudi...

[00:07:39] The first 200 million pound transfer, remember that?

[00:07:42] Was it salad? Yeah, it was salad.

[00:07:44] It was the first 200.

[00:07:45] Wow, God.

[00:07:46] Seems like tennis now.

[00:07:48] But I was going to send you off to my deserted island.

[00:07:51] Now, in pre-production, you and I discussed this

[00:07:53] and you have an aversion to kind of picking favourite goals,

[00:07:56] favourite matches and things

[00:07:57] and you've got, I think, really solid reasons for that

[00:07:59] and I think that's a great place to start.

[00:08:01] What is it about picking your favourites

[00:08:03] that maybe doesn't quite chime with you

[00:08:05] and your love of football?

[00:08:07] Well, two things really.

[00:08:09] One, we are slaves to our audience

[00:08:12] or we should be, you know, as communicators

[00:08:15] never mind commentators.

[00:08:17] We're lucky this is the job that I always wanted to do.

[00:08:20] I guess, you know, roughly what you're doing

[00:08:22] stand up and this kind of thing

[00:08:24] would have been some kind of sort of childhood dream.

[00:08:27] Certainly this was for me.

[00:08:30] So part of the good fortune is to recognise

[00:08:33] that your job, and that's what it is now

[00:08:36] is to serve your audience.

[00:08:38] It is to connect with people

[00:08:40] and any kind of broadcast

[00:08:43] the first question should be,

[00:08:45] what does the audience want from you?

[00:08:47] What is your role in this?

[00:08:49] And so I become a small part of their memories

[00:08:53] of a football match,

[00:08:56] something that actually has to which

[00:08:59] they have a huge emotional attachment.

[00:09:01] I mean, if the political party or religion

[00:09:04] could mobilise the feelings of human beings

[00:09:08] in the way that football is able to do it

[00:09:10] would be a very, very dangerous entity.

[00:09:13] So I recognise that it's up to the audience

[00:09:16] to decide what's good, bad and indifferent

[00:09:19] about me or football.

[00:09:21] And secondly, I think football really belongs

[00:09:24] in its moment.

[00:09:25] I mean, I am now a veteran apparently

[00:09:29] of the industry.

[00:09:31] I did do my first television commentary in 1989

[00:09:34] and there are people already going,

[00:09:36] was there a 1989?

[00:09:38] Wow, was there something before 2000?

[00:09:40] Before the Premier League even, yeah.

[00:09:42] So I have been doing it for a long time

[00:09:44] and so I have commentated on a lot of matches,

[00:09:48] a lot of memorable matches,

[00:09:51] matches which would be memorable to people

[00:09:53] that you won't be aware of, Carl.

[00:09:56] And I think each of those matches

[00:09:58] has to be the most important game

[00:10:01] of that moment.

[00:10:03] For me as the professional,

[00:10:05] it really is take every game as it comes

[00:10:07] and give 110%.

[00:10:09] But once that matches over

[00:10:11] and therefore the commentary is over,

[00:10:13] it's kind of gone.

[00:10:15] It's not gone in so much that you can get nostalgic about it,

[00:10:19] you can get angry about it,

[00:10:21] you can get drunk over it.

[00:10:23] It's still there in the memory bank

[00:10:26] but the game actually moves on to the next,

[00:10:28] there's always a next game.

[00:10:30] And I say without starting to sound like

[00:10:34] some failed football manager,

[00:10:36] the next game is the most important

[00:10:38] and as a professional,

[00:10:40] as somebody who takes a living from this game,

[00:10:42] I really do believe that football belongs to this moment.

[00:10:45] So you can't compare best with

[00:10:48] Erling Haaland or whoever.

[00:10:50] One played then and the other plays now.

[00:10:54] You can't compare Allison with Erling Haaland.

[00:10:57] They play at different ends of the field

[00:10:59] and that's part of the joy and the wonder

[00:11:01] and the glory of football.

[00:11:03] We start all these debates, greatest players,

[00:11:05] your greatest ever top number 11.

[00:11:07] Well, a lot of those players probably played

[00:11:10] before you were born and you probably speak to

[00:11:12] somebody in your family who gave you a top number of hotspots

[00:11:15] who will put forward somebody who you will argue strongly against

[00:11:18] even though you never saw him play.

[00:11:21] But that is football.

[00:11:24] It's one of those very few things in our life.

[00:11:27] I think along with music,

[00:11:29] maybe tragedy is sadly,

[00:11:32] where were you?

[00:11:34] Where were you the night's first one in Amsterdam?

[00:11:37] Everybody kind of remembers where they were

[00:11:40] and as part of that memory, thankfully,

[00:11:43] is sometimes what the commentator said.

[00:11:46] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:11:48] Your commentary is definitely woven

[00:11:50] into some of those moments we'll come to a little bit later.

[00:11:52] Before we do that, let's go a little bit before 1992.

[00:11:55] Let's go back to your childhood

[00:11:58] as a Manchester United fan,

[00:12:00] your first match in 1959

[00:12:02] and your first match as a professional football

[00:12:06] industry professional in 1975.

[00:12:09] How long in between that timeline

[00:12:12] did you kind of discover that maybe football

[00:12:14] and maybe most specifically broadcasting

[00:12:17] was the career choice you really wanted to follow?

[00:12:20] I'm an only child and parents of only children

[00:12:23] are not particularly trustworthy historians.

[00:12:27] I mean, parents get so do-ey-eyed about their children

[00:12:31] at full stop and have you seen,

[00:12:33] would you like to see some photographs

[00:12:35] of my children when they were young?

[00:12:37] Surely you must.

[00:12:38] No, I don't really want to see about, but I will.

[00:12:40] So we kind of humor everybody

[00:12:43] and part of having to humor my mum in particular

[00:12:46] is her telling people that I used to chase

[00:12:48] a football around the back garden

[00:12:50] and commentate, well, yeah,

[00:12:52] of course every kid did.

[00:12:54] But the difference with this strange only child

[00:12:57] was he meant it.

[00:12:59] He knew that he wasn't going to be good enough

[00:13:01] to kick that football around, you know,

[00:13:04] a back garden in Salford or East Manchester

[00:13:08] with 50,000, 60,000 people watching on.

[00:13:11] But I very quickly became entranced

[00:13:15] by watching football on television,

[00:13:18] listening to football on the radio,

[00:13:20] some of it illicitly.

[00:13:22] I was a border at school and so I had to sort of break

[00:13:24] the rules in order to listen to games.

[00:13:27] My dad took me, my dad was the United Fan.

[00:13:29] I'm from Burry.

[00:13:30] When I was born we lived in a 70-touch house

[00:13:33] and our neighbours were Dave and Glendis Russell.

[00:13:36] Dave Russell was the manager of Burry at the time.

[00:13:38] We lived next tour to the football manager

[00:13:40] of our local team.

[00:13:42] My mum went to Giggle Lane before I was born

[00:13:44] when she was pregnant.

[00:13:45] I should have been a Burry fan

[00:13:47] but my dad was the United Fan

[00:13:49] and the United had best Lord Charlton

[00:13:52] and Burry had John McGrath, you know.

[00:13:55] They're actually a championship level team at that time.

[00:14:00] It's difficult to imagine really

[00:14:02] because I can't remember, even I can't remember Munich

[00:14:06] but I was around Merseyside at the time

[00:14:09] while I was at Heisel and around the time of Hillsborough

[00:14:12] and that went something like that happens.

[00:14:15] Football pulls on your heartstrings anyway

[00:14:17] but something so catastrophic and tragic

[00:14:21] of that nature happens.

[00:14:23] It does inevitably heighten the emotions

[00:14:25] and I think my dad was a fan of that Busby Babes team

[00:14:29] and so his connection and attachment to the club

[00:14:33] he was always going to take his only child to Old Trufford

[00:14:36] and as you say, 1959, four and a half, five years of age

[00:14:40] he was already taking me to Gaines.

[00:14:42] Yeah, and so coming out of university

[00:14:45] your career begins at Radio Trent.

[00:14:48] You are immediately covering a Nottingham Forest side

[00:14:51] who are just a few years away from becoming

[00:14:53] double European champions.

[00:14:55] After that you move to Radio City in Liverpool

[00:14:58] where you're covering Liverpool and Everton

[00:15:00] during their pomp in the 80s.

[00:15:02] I mean, I make that as Bill Shankley, Bob Paisley,

[00:15:05] Howard Kendall, Cluffy, all kind of

[00:15:07] either at their peak or approaching their peak.

[00:15:10] I know you've got a lot of last in friendships

[00:15:12] with a lot of the players

[00:15:13] who are the same ages at that time.

[00:15:15] How was it dealing with those kind of powerhouses

[00:15:17] and senior figures in the footballing world

[00:15:19] and did that really kind of test your metal

[00:15:22] as a young reporter?

[00:15:24] Absolutely, I mean again one of the reasons

[00:15:27] that football belongs in its moment is

[00:15:30] the football culture was different

[00:15:33] in the 70s to what it was in the 80s

[00:15:35] to what it was in the 90s.

[00:15:36] There has been a gradual evolution

[00:15:39] in so many areas to be a rookie reporter

[00:15:42] around initially Brian Clough was

[00:15:45] if you're like my first manager.

[00:15:47] I covered Nottingham Forest home and away

[00:15:49] they were a mid-table championship side

[00:15:51] when I started covering them

[00:15:54] but as you say they were the same players

[00:15:56] virtually the same team were three years away

[00:15:59] from becoming European champions

[00:16:01] which will never ever happen again, nothing like that.

[00:16:03] I mean, Lutentown is extraordinary today

[00:16:05] but Nottingham Forest from mid-table championship side

[00:16:08] to retaining effectively the Champions League

[00:16:11] is an incredible journey

[00:16:13] and of course it needed an incredible manager

[00:16:16] to make that happen.

[00:16:18] So being around him was a trial

[00:16:22] he was drinking, that's not an observation

[00:16:25] that's a fact, you know alcohol was the only match

[00:16:28] that he couldn't win and so he was unpredictable

[00:16:31] he was in a sense not a well man

[00:16:34] but again in the late 1970s

[00:16:36] a drink problem wasn't recognised

[00:16:38] as a condition of the kind that it is now

[00:16:41] I only had 18 months in Nottingham around that team

[00:16:43] but I did become very close to them

[00:16:45] as you say I was the same age as the players

[00:16:47] I travelled with them

[00:16:49] I travelled on the official team transport

[00:16:52] either coach or train

[00:16:54] I did on Merseyside

[00:16:56] I moved to Merseyside in 1977

[00:16:59] and Liverpool won the Champions League in 77

[00:17:02] they were the best club team in the world

[00:17:04] I travelled on the team bus

[00:17:06] you know I went

[00:17:08] if they were playing in London I went down on the Friday

[00:17:10] on the team bus

[00:17:12] stayed in the team hotel

[00:17:14] as did the commentary for Merseyside BBC

[00:17:16] I did the reporter for the Liverpool Echo

[00:17:18] and the Liverpool Daily Post

[00:17:20] that was the nature of

[00:17:22] the bond between

[00:17:24] particularly the local media

[00:17:26] and the football club

[00:17:28] and again we're talking about how football has changed

[00:17:31] and maybe the biggest single change

[00:17:33] in my time is the

[00:17:35] the way the football in this media

[00:17:37] have grown apart

[00:17:39] during the course of my career

[00:17:41] but yeah because it was so close

[00:17:43] if you stepped out of line

[00:17:45] or you did something which upset somebody

[00:17:48] in the camp

[00:17:50] I've had the two biggest relicings of my life

[00:17:52] from Charlotte Ferguson

[00:17:54] then it was very intimidating

[00:17:56] it was a bit scary both from the point of view

[00:17:58] of being shouted at

[00:18:00] which probably would not happen today

[00:18:02] and should not happen today

[00:18:04] I mean there was an element of bullying

[00:18:06] certainly verbal bullying

[00:18:08] going on but also from

[00:18:10] you know just from your professional

[00:18:12] survival retaining that

[00:18:14] trust and that strong

[00:18:16] and that special relationship which is so rare

[00:18:18] in modern media because

[00:18:20] the modern journalist and reporter

[00:18:22] accommodated doesn't get that close

[00:18:24] to the dressing room

[00:18:26] it was a bit of a juggling act but

[00:18:28] I look back on

[00:18:30] the most relationships

[00:18:32] of the close-ish relationships

[00:18:34] I had with Bill Shankly

[00:18:36] with Brian Clough

[00:18:38] with Charlotte Ferguson

[00:18:40] with Kenny Dugleish

[00:18:42] with Graham Sooners to this day

[00:18:44] with certainly the last two

[00:18:46] and I've learnt so much

[00:18:48] from being around those

[00:18:50] men that

[00:18:52] exclusively men probably in my time

[00:18:54] in my life I have covered women's football

[00:18:56] but not a lot

[00:18:58] of them are people

[00:19:00] and their achievements

[00:19:02] are extraordinary partly because

[00:19:04] they are each of them quite a unique

[00:19:06] personality

[00:19:08] and being around them

[00:19:10] having their trust and confidence

[00:19:12] having conversations with them

[00:19:14] rather than interviews

[00:19:16] there's the old biblical story about David

[00:19:18] at the feet of the elders

[00:19:20] and I think probably for the first

[00:19:22] 10-15 years of my career

[00:19:24] that's where I was really

[00:19:26] was anybody I could go back and spend some more time with

[00:19:28] now it would be Shankly

[00:19:30] I arrived on Merseyside in 77

[00:19:32] he stepped down

[00:19:34] or pushed or jumped

[00:19:36] whatever it was one of the great mysteries

[00:19:38] of Liverpool's history

[00:19:40] in 74 but he was around

[00:19:42] and fit and well

[00:19:44] he used to live next to Everton's training ground

[00:19:46] and actually go there most days

[00:19:48] for cup of tea and a bit of a walk

[00:19:50] and a bit of a trot and he did an awful lot

[00:19:52] of football forums and so on

[00:19:54] and he wanted to go and pick Bill up

[00:19:56] I just loved being in his company

[00:19:58] I couldn't get enough of him

[00:20:00] maybe one or two people

[00:20:02] in the media who had him in his prime

[00:20:04] as manager

[00:20:06] I kind of heard all the stories I hadn't

[00:20:08] I couldn't get enough

[00:20:10] of Bill Shankly's company

[00:20:12] and how lucky am I now

[00:20:14] to be able to say that

[00:20:16] and to be able to recount some of those

[00:20:18] wondrous tales

[00:20:20] of a man who was

[00:20:22] a kind of Presbyterian

[00:20:24] preacher

[00:20:26] if he'd been a politician

[00:20:28] he'd have won landslide majorities

[00:20:30] he just had you in the palm

[00:20:32] of his hand when he was talking

[00:20:34] You move to ITV in 1989

[00:20:36] comes about your first TV commentary

[00:20:38] is Manchester City 5

[00:20:40] Manchester United 1

[00:20:42] and I think you've spoken about before

[00:20:44] how you long shook off the shackles

[00:20:46] of Manchester United by that point

[00:20:48] you're very much in commentator mode

[00:20:50] that must feel like another huge leap

[00:20:52] in your career doing a TV commentary

[00:20:54] what do you remember about that day

[00:20:56] and obviously you've done

[00:20:58] quite a lot of radio commentary at that point as well

[00:21:00] so what are those principal differences

[00:21:02] of making that move from radio to TV commentary

[00:21:04] Well, you know that

[00:21:06] that was me sort of putting my flag

[00:21:08] at the top of the mountain really

[00:21:10] just doing a television commentary

[00:21:12] which recorded highlights and regional

[00:21:14] it was a Grenada had a

[00:21:16] their own highlights program

[00:21:18] City fans can still recite

[00:21:20] some of the words from the commentary of that day

[00:21:22] it was a surprise result obviously

[00:21:24] Ferguson and I were getting beaten 5-1

[00:21:26] it was a strange day

[00:21:28] so much that yeah, it was a dream come true

[00:21:30] quite literally

[00:21:32] and there was a bit of skirmish

[00:21:34] at the plat lane end and the referee

[00:21:36] took both teams off the field after about three minutes

[00:21:40] my commentary debut

[00:21:42] was going to come off 87 minutes

[00:21:44] sure but fortunately

[00:21:46] the great imagester Constabulary managed to restore peace

[00:21:48] and the two teams came back out

[00:21:50] and played a famous game

[00:21:52] I think, I mean to answer the second question

[00:21:54] which is probably the interesting one

[00:21:56] and I do speak quite a lot to

[00:21:58] either young

[00:22:00] budding commentators some

[00:22:02] fairly well established commentators have asked me to do some mentoring work

[00:22:04] and I speak quite a lot

[00:22:06] to media undergraduates

[00:22:08] the biggest single difference between radio and television commentary

[00:22:10] is you're just not as important in television

[00:22:12] and you've got to get your vein ahead around that

[00:22:14] straight away

[00:22:16] television is a visual medium

[00:22:18] and you are the backing track

[00:22:20] you know, you are the soundtrack to the movie

[00:22:22] and there have been some great

[00:22:24] movie soundtracks down the years

[00:22:26] but nobody goes to the cinema

[00:22:28] to hear the soundtrack

[00:22:30] you go to see the movie

[00:22:32] and the television commentary

[00:22:34] can only really spoil your enjoyment

[00:22:36] I don't think he or she can truly enhance

[00:22:38] your enjoyment of a television game

[00:22:40] whereas radio commentary

[00:22:42] can't really inspire your eyes

[00:22:44] I think probably

[00:22:46] some of the commentators that made the biggest impact on me

[00:22:48] initially were radio commentators

[00:22:50] because you know, some of the finest

[00:22:52] BBC Radio commentaries

[00:22:54] Brian Moore

[00:22:56] who was the late great Brian Moore

[00:22:58] who was my predecessor ITV

[00:23:00] a wonderful man and very kind to me

[00:23:02] was a very, very good BBC radio

[00:23:04] commentator

[00:23:06] in his day

[00:23:08] and I think it is really, really important

[00:23:10] television commentator to try to recognize it's not about you, mate. You know,

[00:23:15] it really is about the action and I think football, it doesn't need dramatizing, it is very dramatic.

[00:23:21] I mean there are really undramatic football matches of course there are and there's nothing

[00:23:26] worse than a commentator trying to convince you that this is really something very special

[00:23:30] whether you're watching when you can tell it's not. But if you're fortunate enough,

[00:23:35] I mean you know as a stand-up comedian, you can only ever be as good as your material and sometimes

[00:23:42] only as good as your audience because they provide you with some of your materials. So if I've got

[00:23:47] great material to work with as a football commentator at a high quality and dramatic game and that

[00:23:54] audience that's there provide me with an atmosphere to go with that then really if

[00:24:02] if I fuck up it hates you know it is the single biggest crime because I can only spoil it for the

[00:24:09] people at home who have turned on their television or logged into whatever screen they're watching it on

[00:24:18] and are trusting you to you know to walk them through this and not get in the way of their

[00:24:24] enjoyment. And so I think I think it is a very basic thing but it's something that

[00:24:30] I don't think you can tell a young broadcaster communicator enough broadcast to your audience

[00:24:36] that the and the bigger the game the more you need to do that. The clue is in the word broadcast

[00:24:44] it is this is not a narrow niche thing it's not about you it's it's it's about the action

[00:24:52] and just trying to amplify and embroider it and explain it from time to time provide the

[00:24:57] right words. I'm a huge believer that you know we work with the same vocabulary that George Orwell

[00:25:04] and Graham Greene worked with once upon a time we're not necessarily going to use the same adjectives

[00:25:09] and the same words some commentators do but most commentators for me are short of the right

[00:25:16] the right words that they actually parrot a lot of the same phrases that I parroted as an early

[00:25:23] commentator that the same cliches from the 70s and 80s are alive and well today

[00:25:29] which is a terrible indictment of by profession. You touched upon Brian Moore there as well being

[00:25:34] one of your mentors and I mean he of course was a broadcaster a commentator who had that

[00:25:43] incredible warmth that I think just touched an audience I certainly remember listening to

[00:25:48] Brian Moore's commentaries towards the end of his career and just just falling in love with

[00:25:52] his voice. What was he like to work with how important was he in terms of your your career at ITV?

[00:26:00] He I had a mentor I didn't choose him he chose me he was ITV's lead boxing commentator at the

[00:26:08] time Reg Guttridge he just saw something in me that he liked and he thought he could improve

[00:26:14] and I probably if if I know whatever I know about commentary maybe 90% of it came from Reg

[00:26:24] what I learned from Brian and in many respects when ITV brought me back that initial commentary

[00:26:31] that I did for Bernardo television back in 1989 I worked in regional TV for a while for them

[00:26:38] I worked on the Satan Grievesy show you know I was sort of lent out for network ITV usage

[00:26:44] but in 1992 the famous summer of 1992 ITV lost all the television rights they had

[00:26:53] I was actually doing some rugby league commentary at the time for ITV and we lost that too

[00:26:57] we I still talk about we even though they shafted me but in 1992 I managed to tunnel out

[00:27:04] during the European Championships to the BBC which really was a dream come true

[00:27:10] and I worked there for four years and they were very four very enlightening years but I

[00:27:14] they were also the years that Barry Davis and John Watson were in their pumps so

[00:27:20] you know I was I was only ever running for bronze in that particular race and

[00:27:24] and in 1996 after four years there ITV since that Brian was getting signals that he might

[00:27:32] soon retire and so they asked me to come back and understood in that they managed to acquire the

[00:27:38] Champions League rights at the time which is quite exciting for ITV and so they needed more than

[00:27:42] one commentator and some very very good and famous commentators including Martin Tyler

[00:27:49] Alan Parry one or two others have kind of been hanging around as number two and ITV waiting

[00:27:54] for Brian to retire and it eventually given up and I saw I arrived at a really good time

[00:28:00] because after the 98 World Cup finally did retire and so for those two years you know in a sense

[00:28:07] I always liked him I always always liked him but I was kind of a rival you know when we went to

[00:28:13] that last World Cup of his in France in 98 I thought I might get the ITV semi-final I was

[00:28:19] you know I felt that I was quite an experienced commentator by then by all means Brian would

[00:28:22] do the final and I was kind of disappointed when I didn't get the semi but it's only really

[00:28:28] with the passage of time and in many ways I didn't really know what a great man he was until I sat

[00:28:35] in a coal church in Kent at his funeral and it was only then that I knew that he was a great

[00:28:45] socialist he was a great Christian a great charity man that he had a background in Kent where he

[00:28:54] had got a scholarship to quite a well-known public school and had been treated as a bit of an outsider

[00:29:00] there's been victim of a lot of snobbery and bullying and this the shaping of this man

[00:29:08] that I kind of looked at from a bit of a distance I suppose there's a bit of a rival I was I never

[00:29:14] was a rival to him but I thought I was and realized actually the stature of the man

[00:29:20] that I thought that I could succeed and probably it was around about then that

[00:29:27] the full scale of trying to move into Brian Moore's shoes hit me because you mentioned the word warmth

[00:29:36] and I think it's the greatest single quality that a mass broadcaster can have I think

[00:29:43] ITV had been very very fortunate with some of their real A-list presenters you know Declan Donnelly

[00:29:51] and Dermot O'Leary Bradley Walsh all of whom you know main drop I know they seem like good guys

[00:30:00] from the distance through the screen they are good guys that you would love their company

[00:30:04] but you feel like you know them and you feel like you would like to have a client

[00:30:08] with those guys and you did with Brian Moore and if you can build up that kind of connection

[00:30:15] with an audience where they come to trust and actually like you and then I think you really

[00:30:22] are starting to make progress in this business and it takes time of course it does

[00:30:29] I'm probably one of my kind of big grumbles at the moment about moving people on when

[00:30:34] they reach a certain age is that in actual fact they're just starting to reach the pinnacle of

[00:30:40] their relationship with this mass audience many of whom by the way are their age you know we almost

[00:30:46] sort of forget that you know television viewers like your folks and whatever they count too you

[00:30:52] know and there's no good reason why somebody of my age cannot be contemporary in their thinking

[00:30:56] and and their approach and their attitudes and particularly in the way they view communication

[00:31:02] but until you've done the yards and and and done the number of games that Brian had done

[00:31:08] and built that relationship with the audience then you can't possibly earn their trust and

[00:31:15] their love in a way that somebody like Brian Moore did somebody like you know we lost Mottie

[00:31:22] this year that the very famous BBC television comment mainly TV BBC

[00:31:29] commentators each associated with their sports the Dan Mascals and the Murray Walkers and the

[00:31:35] Brian Johnston's and the Bill McLaren's you know that Peter O'Sullivan I mean people of my generation

[00:31:45] knew those people never met them but they knew them and they knew them in an intimate way

[00:31:52] that maybe that's a slightly dated thing now because people consume their media in a slightly

[00:31:57] different way than then actually all gathering like a family around the TV but huge sporting events

[00:32:03] still get multi generations around a television set to watch together and the commentator is still

[00:32:10] part of that story not as big a part as they used to be but they are still a part of that story

[00:32:16] and so that relationship which Brian had which I could never get anywhere near I thought that

[00:32:20] was good but I didn't realise what the secret of this is and the secret is to build that trust

[00:32:28] and friendship with people you'll never meet. Two men that you mentioned Barry Davis and John

[00:32:33] Mottson so obviously joined that spell at the BBC and famously they were two men who had

[00:32:38] massive mutual professional respect it was rumoured they may be kept their slight distance

[00:32:43] to quite different men. I think they can't stay I think they always kind of I mean they were

[00:32:48] rivals and I'm always amused by the idea of the football manager who says come in for a drink

[00:32:54] afterwards you know they shake hands on the touch line at 25 plus four and you'll come in for a

[00:33:00] drink afterwards. I'll be fucking big as five no I won't no I mean quite apart from the

[00:33:05] thing and you don't really want them to come in then anyway it is it's a competitive business

[00:33:10] but away from that if they meet at an LMA dinner or something then there is a communion

[00:33:16] then they're going to be hugging each other but not on the match day not in the days when

[00:33:20] they are professionally competing against each other and John and Barry were professionally

[00:33:25] competing and I think it became a big deal you know it became a matter of kind of national

[00:33:31] discussion as to which of them was the better and which of them would be selected to commentate

[00:33:37] on the Cup final. I was in the USA with the BBC team in 1994 the World Cup final when Barry

[00:33:43] got the final you know John was told in the final week that he was going home after the

[00:33:50] after the semi-final and that was that was a big deal that was the that was the lead story and

[00:33:55] whatever mail online or whatever not not who was playing in the final the fact that Barry had been

[00:34:00] chosen ahead of Motty it was that big I think now that there is so much live football out there

[00:34:08] I mean I've had not not many times but I've had times when I've been sat at home watching a game on

[00:34:15] TV and my wife's looked at Twitter and said you're getting terrible stick here

[00:34:22] it's not me I'm there I've never worked for that company which it may be a compliment

[00:34:28] a veiled compliment but it may not but it there is there are so many of us out there now

[00:34:33] and I think the reason for instance that Peter Drury is so popular at the moment and

[00:34:38] and I'm really really pleased for him because he's distinctive you know when you're listening to Peter

[00:34:44] um I mean I hope it doesn't sound bitchy but I'm afraid it's an observation

[00:34:49] I'm afraid a lot of you we don't know who it who it is and it doesn't really matter

[00:34:54] because you're not making that big an impact I know I'm not suggesting the commentator should go

[00:34:59] out of the way because it's not me as I said a little bit earlier it's not me me it's it is about

[00:35:05] serving the audience but you still got to come with a bit of your own personality but a bit of humor

[00:35:11] yeah you know a few words something to remember a big moment by it regs my mentor always said

[00:35:19] that the big goals deserve something better than great amazing fantastic wonderful I want to

[00:35:24] hear you come up with tomorrow morning's headline within 30 seconds of the goal being scored you

[00:35:30] know editorialize why why is that goal so special yeah and um well I listen I I don't want to sound

[00:35:39] like some old far who doesn't think anything is any good anymore I've never been happier in my

[00:35:43] life Carl I like 2023 I think there are things I don't like about it but the same's true of you

[00:35:50] um but I like a lot of what's you know happening in the world today and I'm fortunate you know

[00:35:57] sort of very happily married and kids are healthy and I've still got a career and lots and lots of

[00:36:02] memories and so on and so forth and and all these golf courses and stuff so I am a happy man

[00:36:08] but I care about communication and I care about commentary and I think it can be better than it is

[00:36:18] there are commentators who are getting regular work who I don't hear improving and I can only

[00:36:23] believe that he she they are not giving enough thought to how they might improve maybe not

[00:36:30] even listening back to themselves and being self critical then they certainly haven't got a

[00:36:34] red scotridge in their life I used to get a phone call from in the next morning that after a

[00:36:40] a match and it wasn't over in two minutes and it's love you know cruel to be kind

[00:36:46] and uh but that's how I learned that's how I got better hopefully yeah of course what better than

[00:36:52] to to learn from your peers those that have perhaps got that more experience but you must

[00:36:57] listen to other comics and 100% and be in awe of some and then there'll be comics who are

[00:37:07] really successful and privately quietly grumpily you're thinking I mean comedy I'm a huge supporter

[00:37:19] of comedy and the right of comedy to exist there are very few things that I would march on parliament

[00:37:25] in support of but but the freedom of comedy is really really important I think to to how we live

[00:37:34] because there's a line in my book that about the things that we wish we hadn't said I sometimes

[00:37:40] tell us more about ourselves than anything else and you know I think good comedy is edgy I like

[00:37:48] Daniel Sloss for instance but I can understand why it's a bit too much for some people and

[00:37:54] uncertain people just not finding funny at all it is uncomfortable humor and I don't need all

[00:38:01] my humor to be like that but I think the light and shade in comedy is really really important

[00:38:09] so that when something like Bad Sisters is as popular as it's been in the last year

[00:38:16] I mean it's wickedly dark and we are laughing at things that we really shouldn't be laughing at

[00:38:24] but the characters are so beautifully created and the dialogue is so well written and the

[00:38:30] acting is so strong that almost without realizing we're watching an absolute masterpiece you've got

[00:38:36] to be asking questions of your audience in order to be a little bit different from the next guy that's

[00:38:42] that's coming on at an open mic session and actually commentators have you can't just turn

[00:38:48] up and do it it there's more to it than that it's you're underselling the privilege and the

[00:38:55] opportunity that you've got and the material you're working with if you don't give some thought

[00:39:01] and some retrospective thought to how and how you performed and then listen to other people

[00:39:08] and ask yourself what can I learn from them and I say without trying to make a male online

[00:39:15] headline here that nothing's any good anymore there are some really really good young

[00:39:19] commentators out there and I make a point of letting them know when I think they are

[00:39:24] very good and they usually appreciate it but there's a lot that's just the same and it's just

[00:39:29] the same next time and it's the same next time and they do four or five games a week

[00:39:35] and it just makes it sound like you are working at a car park really yeah take the money

[00:39:47] Return to ITV as you mentioned as understudy initially to Brian Moore and then you become

[00:39:53] ITV's lead commentator what a first season it is as ITV's lead commentator as well you are calling

[00:40:00] the shots on Manchester United's famous treble ceiling Champions League win I mean we'll come to

[00:40:07] that unbelievable run in a moment that unbelievable final and what do you remember about that run

[00:40:13] and I suppose those big Champions League nights old Trafford and kind of how soon along that

[00:40:17] did you begin to feel that there's something different happening 25th anniversary and Manchester

[00:40:23] United and Bayern Munich were drawn in the group phase together in 1998-99 strange days obviously

[00:40:31] work quite a lot now with Gary Neville and Roy Keeneb both of them was strangest to me really

[00:40:37] when I was commentating on them it's interesting really having got to know them they were

[00:40:41] both a bit anti-media if the truth is told at the time if one of them was wheeled out for

[00:40:46] a post match interview you know not of somebody a bit nicer because it's still not available you know

[00:40:54] nice but I think well I know because I had conversations with them that in a even though

[00:41:01] we didn't we had no kind of personal friendship or relationship at all at the time there was

[00:41:08] a certain amount of mutual respect and the trust that I got from Charlie Ferguson which

[00:41:15] made that season very special and was partly handed over from the trust that the relationship

[00:41:21] that he had with Brian Moore my predecessor and I think he put in a good word for me I knew

[00:41:26] Stratix or one of Stratix's boys I worked with Jason at Grenada TV I'd actually been to stay at

[00:41:32] the the Don's house in Wormslow once when Jason had been directing a match and we'd

[00:41:37] gone back to the family home and Sir Alex came in as you do you know we're playing

[00:41:42] snooker and the highlights are all we're going to go on this no no no so I always knew that it was

[00:41:49] a professional relationship I always knew that one mistake would be one mistake too many

[00:41:55] but I would like to well I know because he said it he could see the thoroughness in my preparation

[00:42:02] he could see how seriously I took my job how much I wanted to get it right

[00:42:08] and so two things one he respected me as a fellow professional and two he would trust me with

[00:42:12] information because he appreciated that by giving me information A it would make my job a bit easier

[00:42:19] on the night because I would have a better understanding of what he was trying to do

[00:42:23] and because I had a better understanding of what he was trying to do B I would kind of

[00:42:27] not I would still call a ship pass a ship pass but I would have I maybe have a narrative

[00:42:34] that well I think what Phil is trying to do here is this because he told me before a clock

[00:42:39] and when he told me the team and by the way Bex I knew you were playing I knew you were on

[00:42:43] the bench before you did so that kind of trust was in a pretty special but I think it came

[00:42:52] from that well I know because other other managers have said it you know other guys that

[00:42:56] have become friends have said you know we we saw how you prepared we had the conversations with you

[00:43:03] which were always very very professional and we heard your commentaries and you know we felt that

[00:43:10] they were always understanding sympathetic which is different from being a kind of client

[00:43:18] you know there weren't client commentaries that hopefully there was still an objectivity there

[00:43:23] but they appreciated that too as long as it was coming from that stand so

[00:43:27] I was fortunate to build up those kind of relationships which have served me

[00:43:33] royally from right I know you are specifically about that season I don't want to talk about

[00:43:38] specific seasons I'm talking more about the nature of the job that that I had inherited

[00:43:44] from Brian Moore at a time when I could still build relationships with managers and players I

[00:43:53] had a snout in most dressing rooms yeah it might be the kit man it might be a player

[00:44:01] it might be the manager but you know most of the teams in the top division when

[00:44:08] ITV had the Premiership you know when the tactics struck and all that stuff

[00:44:13] which will never live down still call the Wii why not keep calling the Wii call anyway

[00:44:18] I could make a call on a Friday and usually get some insight in claim as to what was going

[00:44:28] to happen on the Saturday and I'm not saying that doesn't happen now because it does

[00:44:34] and I've had it you know I've had it quite recently with managers that I don't know but

[00:44:39] I've built up an understanding with them in the days leading up to the game

[00:44:44] they come to trust me and therefore you get that intel from them which as I say makes your job a

[00:44:52] bit easier and by having a better understanding of the narrative they've got in mind then you actually

[00:44:59] serve the viewer quite well because you're informed you're not guessing what the lineup's

[00:45:05] going to be sometimes the information is a little bit dangerous as I say you know you

[00:45:13] I mean there were occasions when Sralik had told me the team at lunchtime and I would get into

[00:45:20] the dressing room area at Old Trafford at five o'clock knowing that whatever Kino had a hamstring

[00:45:26] and wasn't going to play and some steward on the tunnel would check my badger sitting

[00:45:32] Kino's not playing his ear. No, no, from the old nose. I don't think I've told him

[00:45:40] and it is it is it is very much classified information I just say I've had these two

[00:45:46] I have these two massive roller kings which I think were part of the initiation

[00:45:50] you know if you can take those you can take anything you still there were both his mistake

[00:45:55] and I'm still waiting for an apology from Sralik Ferguson for the two roller kings but

[00:46:00] I I'm not sure they're coming now. Well, he might have gone past that.

[00:46:08] Well it sounds like that journalistic instinct as well of getting that information in all of

[00:46:14] those dressing rooms and so on but yeah I can imagine after you've been on the end of one

[00:46:18] tongue lashing from Alex Ferguson you are keen to avoid another and that kind of

[00:46:25] another actually. Well yeah that's true enough. But the paranoia of the security guard asking

[00:46:32] you. The BBC got one, I got two. There's a moment in that first season in the final

[00:46:39] that obviously those commentary moments that that live forever and as you mentioned a commentator

[00:46:46] being part of the soundtrack to a moment like that but obviously your words will will live

[00:46:50] forever I think 50 years or 100 years from now. Name on the trophy is showing them equalizers.

[00:46:56] Solskjaer has won it. Can Manchester United score they always score a course?

[00:47:02] Pretty lucky that night didn't I? Solskjaer has won it breaks the

[00:47:07] Cardinal rule of commentary. I've waved the winner across the the finishing line before

[00:47:12] the finishing line has arrived by a minute go down the other end equalize it goes to extra time

[00:47:17] penalties they win the shootout because they're German and they will win the shootout

[00:47:22] and there is an effigy of me hanging from the Anvils centre before midnight so yeah

[00:47:27] you need a little bit of luck. I've just started to put together a little

[00:47:33] YouTube series which coming soon folks just analyzing big commentary moments and the

[00:47:40] the most famous piece of commentary of all time is some people on the pitch they think it's

[00:47:45] all over it is now so the 1966 World Cup final Kenneth Wollstone home was the commentator

[00:47:52] and I'm going to be I'm going to make myself so unpopular with the entire world by pointing

[00:48:00] out that immediately before that incredibly vivid inspired piece of commentary and immediately

[00:48:06] after Kenneth was talking gobbledygook and the last thing that he says it's a great quiz

[00:48:14] question what's the last thing that Kenneth Wollstone says before Hurst now some people

[00:48:21] are thinking of the last thing he says is and it's just before the Rotorgerico moment

[00:48:33] and where the light shines down from heaven catches his reflection and he nails it like no

[00:48:39] commentator ever before or after nails it the same brain starts a sentence which he can't complete

[00:48:46] and I swear it that and I'm not absolutely certain we will investigate it in the the

[00:48:53] YouTube analysis that immediately after the goal he says Charlton for no particular reason

[00:49:02] what was to say he's not sure that it was in fact Jeff Hurst so he'll throw a little

[00:49:07] chart then there maybe for the edit just to move it along necessarily so there you are

[00:49:13] but even more interestingly he says it's nearly all over twice in the 45 seconds before he says

[00:49:23] what he says so he actually his mind is actually rehearsing the greatest commentary line of all time

[00:49:30] and weirdly Aguero which I also am going to do some analysis of which is a wonderful piece

[00:49:35] of commentary by Martin Tyler not for the aware all but what he says next which is I swear you'll

[00:49:42] never see anything like this ever again and which is a big fucking call really particularly from

[00:49:48] somebody who's done the number of games that he's done because as Rich used to say to me you're

[00:49:53] editorializing in that moment what is this we've just seen and Martin is telling us we will

[00:49:58] never see anything like this ever again and actually certainly to this day he's right I mean

[00:50:06] which makes that piece of commentary not only very dramatic but journalistically absolutely spot on

[00:50:13] and a wonderful kind of post script to you know a wonderful career that's come to an end this

[00:50:20] year but weirdly about 30 40 seconds before that after Giacomo equalize was it Giacomo score

[00:50:27] didn't he yeah it they have another attack and he says something to the effect of if they come

[00:50:35] because United's finished and I had a plane at Sutherland and that game's over so we now know

[00:50:40] that city have got to score again and they're not going to are they I mean they're going to be

[00:50:44] denied again by Manchester United like always happens and as they come forward he says something

[00:50:49] if they pull this off will it it'll be like nothing we've ever seen before and it's almost

[00:50:54] like that thought process I'm fascinated by things like that I mean the the technicalities of good comedy

[00:51:01] are really really boring aren't they I mean you know timing and the way you introduce themes and

[00:51:07] stories and stuff and actually good commentary preparation for it is really really dull but

[00:51:13] I am fascinated by the thought process that a commentator is going through on the verge of

[00:51:18] delivering something really really special which Martin did there and which Kenneth Wilson did

[00:51:23] all those years ago and you'll see this in the YouTube series both of them actually almost rehearse

[00:51:29] the great line they're about to deliver about 30 seconds before they deliver it

[00:51:35] I mean I've not answered your question because I don't really want to talk about

[00:51:37] the specifics of what I said I did get lucky I think there were apes I took to what happened

[00:51:43] there was one other goal in that game and I got it wrong you know I the bi-munic free kick

[00:51:49] was not deflected I said it was deflected every time I see Schmeichel I said you stood still

[00:51:55] I excused you in the commentary I said it was deflected it wasn't deflected you just stood still

[00:52:01] yeah yeah because and that's even then thrown thrown you in there in the commentary box I mean

[00:52:05] that you've just said something really interesting there as well in terms of the

[00:52:09] analysis of something that happens in a split second this YouTube series sounds absolutely

[00:52:13] fascinating and I'm interested in that comparison with comedy because I can come off stage and go

[00:52:18] I've had a decent one I've had a very good one that was very tricky so as a commentator are you

[00:52:24] absolutely very really happy need to see it back you know um but but what you're saying I saw a

[00:52:34] documentary about Peter Sellers I being there is one of my favorite movies of all time and Peter

[00:52:40] Sellers was just one of those gifted comedians who only needed to walk on stage and look at

[00:52:46] the audience and people would corpse you know please and that it is just extraordinary what

[00:52:52] certain people are able to do the aura that they bring with them the fact that we know

[00:52:56] Tommy Cooper we know you're going to make us laugh so we'll start laughing now yeah and um

[00:53:01] I saw a documentary about Sellers and Steve Coogan was talking about Sellers

[00:53:06] and Steve Coogan could have been talking about accountancy or um you know third

[00:53:11] thermonuclear dynamics the way the serious rather slightly dull and technical nature

[00:53:18] but he was analyzing the brilliance that was that was Sellers because he studied it and that's

[00:53:24] why Coogan you know that's why Coogan can make us laugh because he studied how you make people

[00:53:29] laugh and I study other commentators I if I'm trying to provide some advice for a co-commentator

[00:53:38] someone who just come out of the game or maybe just coming out of the game and want to know about

[00:53:44] broadcasting one of the first things I asked them to do is think of a sport which you like but don't

[00:53:52] know it may be whatever cricket or rugby or golf and think of who it is in television in that sport

[00:54:00] that connects with you about that sport it might be Martin Brundle it might be Lawrence

[00:54:05] to Laleo it might be Radar Riley whoever it is that manages to transcend the gap between what you

[00:54:14] know about that sport and what they know about the sport and is able to tell you in such a way

[00:54:19] that it's easy to digest and here I am now talking like Coogan about commentary about

[00:54:24] broadcasting but that is the essence of the job yeah find somebody that does that

[00:54:30] and then do that yourself because you've been down there in the across the white line in the middle

[00:54:35] where I will never go where Martin Tyler thinks he was a centre forward but he wasn't weak he played

[00:54:40] for Corinthians something Corinthians casuals anyway yeah but all of those guys you know Guy

[00:54:45] Moebury all the guys that that you know and love we've never been down there we've been to

[00:54:51] all the games we've done the World Cup finals but we've never been across the white line

[00:54:56] your job is to come back from across the white line and tell the rest of us how and why football

[00:55:02] matters in women loss yeah and you don't have to play at the very highest level to be able to do that

[00:55:09] Lucy Ward does that brilliantly um Lucy wasn't a great woman footballer let alone playing in whatever

[00:55:16] you know in front of 80 000 people in a World Cup final in the Mara Canal but she can do it

[00:55:22] because she's given some thought to it she's given some thought to the process what do I know about

[00:55:27] football which you don't you know plenty Lucy because you've been involved in football play the game

[00:55:32] to a decent level and how can I come back that and relate it to my uncle Eric Eric and my auntie

[00:55:40] Jesse that is the brilliance that's what Brundle does I can kind of take a leave F1

[00:55:48] but when Brundle talks F1 I'll listen you know because he's able to put it into terms that I can

[00:55:56] digest having never sat behind the wheel at 250 miles an hour with the stopping up my ass you know

[00:56:02] that but but we I don't know how many gifted footballers have met most of them no idea no

[00:56:10] idea how they did it don't know don't know don't even can't even start to tell you

[00:56:14] but and interestingly I think probably the best analysts tend to be players like Gary Neville and

[00:56:21] Jamie Carragher who played to a high level but weren't hugely gifted actually had to graft

[00:56:28] every yard that they they they won on a football field defenders maybe because they had to work

[00:56:36] it out for themselves on the field how they could match somebody who was supremely talented

[00:56:42] quicker brighter smarter more skillful than them how they could compete with them and if you can

[00:56:47] work that out you might just be able to tell you know Carl Jones and Clive Tillsley yeah yeah no

[00:56:55] that's that's a that's a fascinating breakdown of again also how the co-commentator and what the

[00:57:00] co-commentator brings and and you've had some wonderful colleagues and 2005 in the Champions

[00:57:06] League final again another extraordinary moment and without without I mean how aware are you

[00:57:11] are you in fighter pilot mode at that moment of how much are you running on instinct do you think

[00:57:16] and how much are you conscious of what is happening in those seconds as as obviously a huge huge

[00:57:21] call comes up a huge moment that that Martin Tyler Aguero moment when Solskjaer's putting that

[00:57:26] ball in the back of the net how what is going on in your brain can you even begin to analyze

[00:57:31] what is happening in the head of Clive Tillsley at that moment I think sometimes when I particularly

[00:57:40] have been in a rhythm of doing quite a few games I might have a kind of a loose five minutes and

[00:57:45] I'm sure you relate to this exactly the same do you know what I've just delivered those five

[00:57:49] minutes because they were the five minutes I delivered last night in Rotherham or wherever you

[00:57:52] work and it kind of worked then and here we go again it's not good enough is it that's

[00:57:58] not why you're on stage making people laugh because you're just reading from a script which

[00:58:04] has kind of appeared in your head and you know sometimes I consciously open my eyes wider

[00:58:11] and it's it's almost like a concentrate come on come on come back you can be better than this

[00:58:16] watch the game more closely do you know one of the biggest failings of comment again I'm

[00:58:22] suddenly like a right old critic here they don't watch the game what's the game

[00:58:28] I mean it's great to have I know you know I've got loads of information and I use facts

[00:58:32] and figures of course I do but they've got to they've got to illustrate so they've got to be

[00:58:38] relevant you know sometimes you know some above brethren that there should be a crawler going

[00:58:43] across the bottom of the screen I've fucking well done this recess I'm not gonna hear it

[00:58:48] it's watch the game watch the game particularly after a goal watch how it affects the game

[00:58:54] watch it's hugely emotional game football some of the most and I've spoken to

[00:59:00] footballers about this that those minutes when you were one in luck and suddenly you're two one down

[00:59:05] and suddenly you can't run anymore you can't think we've all been in that situation in whatever

[00:59:10] little sport that we play in our lives you know you might be a golfer and you sit around he

[00:59:16] hadn't given the thought kick your head stiller and suddenly you know you hit two shanks in a row

[00:59:21] and you're standing over the ball thinking what what am I going to do next maybe I'll try

[00:59:25] left-handed or something you know something different because suddenly your confidence has

[00:59:30] gone from there to there it happens to the best and so that you know that kind of

[00:59:38] chemical thing that's happening to these people in in a game that's part of your analysis watch it

[00:59:44] you know because that's the wonder of football the momentum swings you know this this c-word

[00:59:50] confidence what the hell is it you know where's like a pressure what is pressure ask yourself you

[00:59:55] know when you're when you are driving to the match and you're driving to the gig ask yourself

[01:00:01] those kind of questions if I'm going to use the word pressure tonight what does it mean

[01:00:05] shall I try and define it a bit better that's how you can improve your work so at the big moments

[01:00:12] hopefully your concentration is so high and so intense that and you've got the guts to

[01:00:20] just wait a moment don't think out loud I mean how many commentators do you hear that yeah it's just

[01:00:27] like a stream of consciousness you know here's the next thought in my head and save it just be

[01:00:33] silent for 15 seconds and then tell us your conclusion you know because we don't really

[01:00:37] need to know you how you've arrived at it just tell us your conclusion and you know the two goals

[01:00:44] that you alluded to in Barcelona at the end of the 1999 Champions League final which is probably

[01:00:51] the most important match of my career what's the very best thing name on the trophy no I'm so sure

[01:00:58] I was wondering it's there's about eight seconds of silence between the goal going in and the

[01:01:03] next thing I say name on the trophy and that again I keep going back to Reg Gautry's you're not

[01:01:11] resting you're thinking that is thinking time think carefully clearly what are you going to say next

[01:01:18] what does this moment deserve we're back to Kugan analyzing sellers aren't we but I mean I think if

[01:01:25] anybody actually cares about communication I think this stuff is interesting and it should be

[01:01:33] interesting certainly to fellow professionals whether you stand up or whether you are I don't

[01:01:39] know maybe just doing presentations in a corporate world or something like that that the whole

[01:01:47] I hear the studio hand to a commentator and the teams come out past the trophy well here they come

[01:01:53] I mean really I mean you've had three days to think what we're going to say when the teams come

[01:01:59] out so here come the teams oh right there they oh yeah you're right the people with the shorts

[01:02:05] yeah there's there the teams well said fantastic I mean even at the start of the second half

[01:02:12] you've had 15 minutes yeah i've got a tea i've a kick cat

[01:02:17] think how are you going to start the next half listen to the studio think how you're going

[01:02:21] to when they hand back to you and the teams are back with us are they really oh my that's

[01:02:27] why we've got back out of that studio so yeah I you know once upon a time I had this is terrible

[01:02:36] really it's all me me me I know but I had an ambition to be a football commentator once upon

[01:02:41] time I asked my mum who's still going strong in 94 by the way so you might have to put up with a

[01:02:46] bit more immediate come because dad made it to 98 and she's 94 so sorry folks I'm hanging around

[01:02:52] the red wine's nearly gone but I've been in it I'm I'm intending to carry on for a bit long

[01:02:58] but I really really wanted to be a commentator and if at some stage in my late teens university

[01:03:05] time maybe even early radio career a shadowy figure sorry I'm not really just I don't believe

[01:03:11] in God but something godlike had appeared and said bad news well good and bad news like

[01:03:17] you're going to be an accountant you're going to be really successful in accounting you've

[01:03:21] got an industrial economics degree it's what your dad always wanted really um but you're not

[01:03:25] going to be a commentator oh okay but there's going to be a reality show and you're going to be in it

[01:03:32] and for 30 seconds in this reality show you are going to be a network television

[01:03:37] commentator to 27 million people you will get 30 seconds of your life as a television commentator

[01:03:44] I try to make every 30 seconds that I do those 30 seconds I fail fucking miserably because I do get

[01:03:54] into a rhythm and I lose that intense concentration that you need to really perform at your best

[01:04:01] you know I do get um like a basical and a little bit functional from time to time because it's my

[01:04:08] job but that doesn't mean I shouldn't strive to make those 30 seconds as precious as 30 seconds

[01:04:15] that I would have had in that imaginary because they are precious to somebody listening or watching

[01:04:21] try your best but try all the time against it we are so lucky to do this job and you're so lucky

[01:04:27] to get the chance to walk out onto a stage within opportunity a scary opportunity and my job

[01:04:33] scary now in the you know the Elon Musk age there's a huge amount of jeopardy involved with

[01:04:38] actually trying to make the job sound a little bit differently and trying to entertain and maybe

[01:04:44] introduce some humor and some comment from time to time yeah I could get cancelled any day now

[01:04:50] and so could you but that doesn't that shouldn't stop us that shouldn't stop us trying to make

[01:04:55] the next 30 seconds of commentary really really good and I say I'm such a bitch but I hear so many

[01:05:05] people will just not try it they know you're not trying you got the job you got the gig

[01:05:10] you know you don't put any value on it you don't put any value on the words or the thought processes

[01:05:16] or the rhythm or the timing it's all important of course it's important um and that's yeah that's

[01:05:23] if anybody ever happens to ask me for the to mentor them I say yes I'll do it and thank you for asking

[01:05:29] you but you're not going to like a lot of it clearly that passion that gets you to the fantastic

[01:05:36] career that you continue to have so that was part one of my chat with Clive Tildesley what a guy

[01:05:44] what an absolute gentleman so much fun talking to him next week's show we cover just about

[01:05:51] get out of his favorite World Cup or favorite World Cup experience even though as you've discovered

[01:05:56] he is averse to sharing favorites of anything England versus Iceland what that was like

[01:06:00] commentating on especially given it was the final game in charge for his great friend

[01:06:05] Roy Hodgson being the voice of FIFA and one or two unusual circumstances that that has

[01:06:12] cropped up over the years as well that is all coming on next week's show so especially if

[01:06:16] you're new here but even if you're not please hit subscribe share it with someone else who

[01:06:21] might enjoy this chat and get them to subscribe as well I really appreciate the numbers are going up

[01:06:26] week on week on week and if you're watching on YouTube finders where you get your podcasts

[01:06:30] and vice versa if you're listening go and find us on the YouTube channel on when football

[01:06:35] began again I would really really appreciate your support there so on last week's show

[01:06:40] 1997-98 our season review we also covered who the Premier League's greatest ever Bulgarian was

[01:06:46] my two guests Andy and Jamie were pretty adamant it was Dimitar Berbetoff the public vote was a

[01:06:52] little closer and indeed Martin Petrov perhaps poied by quite a strong bolt and wanderers following

[01:06:59] online got 34 percent of the votes out of the four players but it was indeed with 36 percent of the

[01:07:05] votes Dimitar Berbetoff your greatest ever Premier League Bulgarian my commiserations to

[01:07:11] still Ian Petrov and Radis Dam Kishichev who didn't quite make the cut so Dimitar Berbetoff goes into

[01:07:18] the Premier League of Nations Hall of Fame I mentioned at the top of the show if you are new here

[01:07:24] thank you for finding us I hope you'll stick around certainly at least till next week when

[01:07:28] my second part with Clive is coming up and I've got a little teaser for that at the end

[01:07:34] of this episode as well but if you haven't discovered what the show you don't know

[01:07:39] what the show is all about we cover the best bits of the Premier League era it's been a controversial

[01:07:44] time there's no doubt about it and especially this week of all weeks and the points deduction on Everton

[01:07:49] the Premier League is as controversial as ever we cover an awful lot more than football post 1992

[01:07:56] there's plenty in the lower leagues and pre-1992 as well but we have season long reviews we have

[01:08:01] interviews with some of the big names who played in the Premier League Ashley Ward Mark Draper

[01:08:06] Danny Wilson as well as interviews with famous faces and names Josh Pugh the comedian Ian McMillan

[01:08:12] the poet and we've also had a count of the Premier League table the all-time Premier League table so

[01:08:18] Barnsley Blackpool Huddersfield Swindon Town Cardiff City all been covered on this show

[01:08:24] in some depth and detail there is so much for you to go and find if you are new to the

[01:08:29] show please do hit subscribe go and have a look and I would love to have you on board ongoing

[01:08:36] as I mentioned at the start of the show this is the penultimate episode of season two next week

[01:08:40] with Clive Tilsey will be the last in the series we will then be resting until the early spring

[01:08:46] I already have some incredible guests and interviews lined up and indeed in the bag

[01:08:52] Jim White of the Telegraph will be on the show talking about his love of Manchester United

[01:08:58] and the books that he's written including about the history of the Premier League

[01:09:03] Jules Warren one of the most familiar faces on Sky Sports he will also be on the show I've recorded

[01:09:09] that too and there is a continuation of the count up of the all-time Premier League tables

[01:09:14] we're going to start with Reading Nex but Sheffield United Brentford these are all teams

[01:09:19] that are in my sights as well and as ever some of the top up and come in and indeed

[01:09:25] rising stars of the stand-up circuit Josh Pugh who was on live at the Apollo

[01:09:29] just earlier this week is also on the show in the back catalog so do go and find that but

[01:09:35] in the meantime all that's left to say is thank you for watching and thank you for listening

[01:09:39] today thank you for supporting the show thank you for the kind comments subscriptions and shares

[01:09:44] I really appreciate it if you've bought me a coffee or buy me a coffee dot com thank you for

[01:09:48] that it's a little bit like leaving a tip for the show all the links that you need to share

[01:09:53] the show are in the description I will see you back here again next week for the last in the series

[01:09:59] and part two slash glass two with Clive Tildesley I'll see you then we are being driven out in

[01:10:06] the desert by this Bedouin guy he's got two young children I would say about 10 and 12 and so

[01:10:11] we're rattling through the desert and it's pretty loud we're shouting at each other a little

[01:10:15] bit just to be heard suddenly the kids are shouting in the back and he turns to me and

[01:10:20] he says in Jordan in the middle of a desert they say you sound like the man from FIFA

[01:10:28] so I turn around to the kids and go it's a very good afternoon from Clarkson they go

[01:10:32] wow the man from FIFA I said I am the man from FIFA