Clive Tyldesley on England exits, Roy Hodgson and commentating on Fifa (pt.2)

[00:00:00] We are being driven out in the desert by this Bedouin guy. He's got two young children

[00:00:04] I would say about 10 and 12 and so we're rattling through the desert and it's pretty loud

[00:00:09] We're shouting at each other a little bit just to be heard suddenly the kids are

[00:00:13] shouting in the back and

[00:00:15] he turns to me and he says

[00:00:17] In Jordan in the middle of a desert they say you sound like the man from FIFA

[00:00:23] So I turn around to the kids and go

[00:00:30] I said I am the man from FIFA

[00:00:34] Hello and welcome to this final episode of season two of When Football Began Again

[00:00:40] The podcast that takes a nostalgic look at the Premier League era

[00:00:45] Today's show as you perhaps already know is the second of my two-part conversation

[00:00:50] With the voice of ITV football for the best part of two decades

[00:00:55] Clive Tildesley if you are discovering this show there is a part one

[00:01:00] where we discuss all of Clive's early career his moves to ITV

[00:01:05] Today's show concludes that chat. We talk about his favourite World Cup experiences

[00:01:11] We talk about what it's like to commentate on a game like England vs Iceland

[00:01:15] when England are

[00:01:16] unceremoniously being dumped out of another major tournament

[00:01:19] especially when his great friend Roy Hodgson is in the dugout

[00:01:24] We talk about his time voice in FIFA and the innovations he brought to that

[00:01:28] And we also at the very end of the show talk about his commentary charts

[00:01:33] This amazing site also that he's got real pieces of art

[00:01:36] They're absolutely fantastic and highly highly recommended to get those

[00:01:40] especially with Christmas just around the corner

[00:01:43] So without further ado this week let's just get straight into it

[00:01:47] Part two slash glass two he did start with one glass of wine in last week's episode

[00:01:52] He is returning at the beginning of this episode with a fresh glass

[00:01:57] Glass two part two of Clive Tildesley

[00:02:04] You were at USA 1994 with the BBC and Lee commented with ITV for two decades as well

[00:02:10] from Euro 2000 onwards

[00:02:12] It was this is a dangerously close to a pity favourite so I'm not going to do that Clive

[00:02:17] I give you my assurance there

[00:02:18] But out of all of those tournaments you did

[00:02:21] Is there any that stand out in terms of that experience of kind of being in

[00:02:25] Yeah South Africa

[00:02:26] Yeah definitely South Africa

[00:02:28] The South African bid failed like four years earlier and we went to Germany instead

[00:02:33] And I've been to Germany done that billion times

[00:02:36] It was actually a really really good World Cup 06

[00:02:39] And very very well run and I had a good time there very good time

[00:02:43] But South Africa was just different you know South Africa took me

[00:02:46] You know what I say out of my comfort zone

[00:02:49] I can only tell you that Cape Town made such an impact on me

[00:02:52] That I took my wife there the following February

[00:02:56] You've got to see this city you've got to see this country

[00:02:58] I've been obviously to several continents covering football and

[00:03:04] I suppose in our city of question the more exotic the venue

[00:03:10] Brazil in 14 and South Korea Japan 02

[00:03:15] You know they are different from what I'm used to seeing on the kind of Champions League circuit

[00:03:20] Particularly when you spend four or five weeks in the country and we saw a lot of South Africa

[00:03:25] We did games all over North South East West

[00:03:28] I mean Bloomington was apartheid wasn't still operational in Bloomington but it felt like it

[00:03:33] Up north those couple of venues up at the top of the Kruger were just

[00:03:39] Absolutely stunningly beautiful and felt very African

[00:03:43] Cape Town isn't very African really it's quite a it's quite a European city in many ways

[00:03:47] But we saw a lot of the nation and it meant so much the nation was so proud to host the tournament

[00:03:54] And yeah, it just just in terms of eye-opening South Africa was was yeah a really special experience

[00:04:00] I've got lots of very very happy memories from the bean back to South Africa

[00:04:05] Four times since then um take the gold sticks and everything and seeing the country as a tourist

[00:04:11] Susan my wife spent part of her childhood in

[00:04:14] Zambia

[00:04:16] So she's got some African memories which are very dear to her so yeah going back to

[00:04:22] To Southern Africa together and and reliving a little bit of that World Cup

[00:04:26] But it was a weird World Cup Jim Beckley was my co-comitator and fell ill

[00:04:31] On the eve of the semi-final really quite ill

[00:04:34] I was in a wheelchair Jim Rosenthal looked after him magnificently. I did the semi-final on my own

[00:04:39] We didn't have a co-comitator. So yeah, look the sort of personal memories

[00:04:43] Andy Townsend

[00:04:45] Was I shared an apartment in Sampson in sort of suburb of joba with Andy who's really really close friend

[00:04:52] but Jim and Andy are really good friends

[00:04:55] And we wouldn't play golf which is very very unusual during the tournament

[00:04:58] There was really any time to do that

[00:05:00] But we went play golf and came back to the apartment

[00:05:03] And we turned the TV on and and Andy was a bit of a father figure to poor Gascoi

[00:05:11] And he had like four or five miss calls from Gaza, which was not unusual

[00:05:15] But when we turned sky news on which we had in the flat in sampson

[00:05:19] He

[00:05:21] He got to see royal mode, which is not funny really because it was very difficult kind of

[00:05:26] It was a very difficult time particularly for somebody like Andy who knew Paul so well and Paula clearly had

[00:05:31] Wanted to discuss it with Andy and when Andy was losing golf balls with me

[00:05:36] So yeah, it's weird the kind of recollections you have

[00:05:40] And the friendships you build up, you know your great hero glenn is

[00:05:44] Such a good man and and when you're getting up and listen, it's a dream job

[00:05:49] But during a tournament you can do three games in four days

[00:05:52] And so you can have

[00:05:54] Three five a.m. Starts in a row and and in a big country like Brazil or South Africa

[00:06:01] You know, it's a long it's a long way. We had a four hour flight in brazil

[00:06:05] so

[00:06:06] If the venues are a long way apart

[00:06:09] you're on the road and

[00:06:11] You know when you're sitting in a traffic jam in south parlor

[00:06:14] And time's ticking by and you wonder when they're going to get a meal before you get to the stadium

[00:06:18] You kind of need somebody alongside you that you really like and and whose values and

[00:06:24] His friendship is is really strong and genuine and glenn holders such such a good guy. We nearly lost him

[00:06:31] Yeah, I went to visit him and uh in his during his rehab and we had lots of walks and

[00:06:37] It obviously something has happened to glenn

[00:06:41] You know makes you realize how much you value a friend

[00:06:44] And uh, so yeah, there are football people who disappoint when you meet them glenn holders not one of them

[00:06:49] That's a pleasure to hear as a as a first one as you allude to certainly for us back at home

[00:06:54] That experience of a world cup the culture of it

[00:06:57] Coming through the screen is uh, is really important and and certainly part of your role. I think as a commentator

[00:07:02] I understand why

[00:07:04] To a degree the ITV commentary team

[00:07:07] Were not in sydney for the women's world cup final

[00:07:11] Robin Cowan was she nearly didn't do it. She two hours before the game

[00:07:14] She wasn't going to do it. She'd lost her voice, but um, she she's a really good commentator by the way, but

[00:07:21] It's the women's world cup final englander playing in it. I mean

[00:07:25] The commentators shouldn't be in maitston ken

[00:07:28] No, no sat in there sat in the stadium me. Perhaps come to that in a short while

[00:07:32] I think as well maybe the

[00:07:33] advantages and disadvantages of advancing technology in 2004 you've mentioned one or two of your close personal friends who

[00:07:41] Through football as well. You asked another personal friend, Dave Jones who was manager of all the hampter ones at the time

[00:07:46] If you'd still be manager next week, you have said in your book

[00:07:51] That was the last time you ever asked a manager that question. Do you mind sharing? Why because it's got was not better

[00:07:57] Yeah, I mean journalism is wonderful and journalism has never been more important in this world than it is

[00:08:02] In my lifetime is good journalism

[00:08:04] It's never been more important than it is now

[00:08:07] Because there is so much fake news out there. There's so much propaganda

[00:08:10] There's so many very very difficult issues to deal with future detecting planet to begin with, you know

[00:08:15] I always try to respect another opinion

[00:08:18] I can't respect swinging judgments of people that you've never met

[00:08:22] They're almost encouraged in the social media world. I'm not quite sure when this goes to air

[00:08:27] But we're talking about 48 hours after Jordan Henderson gave his first interview

[00:08:32] I've made some really heavy weight stuff saying he's lying about when he says they didn't go for money

[00:08:37] How do you know? I mean, how can you possibly say?

[00:08:41] I can call somebody you barely know and you don't know the circumstances a liar. I mean, I find I can see the skepticism

[00:08:48] I get that

[00:08:50] But everything is so

[00:08:53] Definite

[00:08:54] I you know, I've been on the planet as to say 150 years or something now

[00:08:59] And all I can say to people who haven't is it's not usually like this

[00:09:04] You know, we don't usually have

[00:09:07] A worldwide pandemic which wipes out millions of innocent people

[00:09:11] We don't usually have an awful brutal war two hours flight from Heathrow in places that I've visited many times

[00:09:19] Playing football. We don't normally have

[00:09:22] I'm sorry

[00:09:23] A corrupt government like we have at the moment and

[00:09:27] USA has had in recent times. We don't normally have the economic problems. We don't normally have

[00:09:33] The awful dilemmas over

[00:09:36] You know the future of the planet and recognition of the people's differences

[00:09:41] either

[00:09:43] Racial or sexual orientation or gender whatever

[00:09:46] That it is a bit more complicated than it usually is and yet you're also fucking sure of your position

[00:09:55] Yeah, I mean there is nothing wrong with with the best answer to well a lot of questions is

[00:10:01] Do you know I don't really know but I am trying to find out

[00:10:04] I am asking questions trying to work it out

[00:10:08] You know, so if you've got a bit of an input that you'd like to give me but please

[00:10:11] Don't give me your opinion and tell me that unless I share it

[00:10:15] I'm the infidel and I will be cast into the faria inferno

[00:10:18] Because I'm just not that kind of person. I'm afraid. I've got an inquisitive mind

[00:10:22] I'm a bit of a journalist

[00:10:24] I'd like to try and find out for myself and make my own mind up if you don't mind

[00:10:30] And a lot of people do so it is a it's a difficult time to be a good communicator, but

[00:10:37] If if if you're watching now and you've got an ambition to work in this business

[00:10:42] And you're very much in this business too, Carl because I say comedy is a really important part of getting us to look at ourselves and examine

[00:10:49] Ourself and some of the most

[00:10:51] Important social comment is made by comedians in actual fact. I think you've probably read the book and I refer to an old

[00:10:58] Sitcom till death has to pop which could never be shown today even when I watch it now and I loved it at the time

[00:11:04] It's it is very 1960s and 70s

[00:11:09] But it was it was desire. It was it was

[00:11:12] irony

[00:11:13] It was satire

[00:11:14] It was getting us to look at ourselves through this dreadful character who was the main character and ask yourself

[00:11:20] Are you not a bit like him?

[00:11:22] And it's like we can't have that character anymore

[00:11:25] To to to be that mirrored for us to look at ourselves and ask ourselves whether we're not

[00:11:32] I don't know what's happened. I don't know whether

[00:11:34] Covid the breakdown in personal meetings and relationships and itoy contact all this, you know, this is now a personal

[00:11:42] intimate conversation and we are what are we 180 miles apart

[00:11:47] Something has happened to the way that we conduct our relationships

[00:11:52] which

[00:11:53] I think people in communications in journalism

[00:11:57] As the same comedy and entertainment

[00:11:59] Um, I love television. I'm struggling to find anything. I really want to watch on television and

[00:12:05] That's not just because I'm

[00:12:07] Old or different or whatever it's it's I'm hearing this a lot

[00:12:12] And I'm hearing a lot of undercurrent

[00:12:15] murmurings of people who are not happy with the way

[00:12:19] That media and discussions are being conducted. And so we're actually creating

[00:12:25] resistance

[00:12:26] movements against

[00:12:28] Things which are actually pretty good, you know, I mean political correctness

[00:12:33] I don't have a problem with political correctness

[00:12:35] Because actually political correctness is just having some consideration for other people's

[00:12:40] points of view

[00:12:41] and feelings

[00:12:42] But some of the strident protection of

[00:12:45] Political credit just does none of that

[00:12:48] it

[00:12:49] It dismisses your opinion and your viewpoint and forces it on the ground and if you're not careful

[00:12:55] It's all going to swell up and it's it's it's going to explode in your face

[00:12:58] So you and I and anybody else who's got any ambitions in communication

[00:13:04] I've got to start to take responsibility and take a few risks

[00:13:08] You know, we've got about to say things really or certainly ask questions

[00:13:12] Which are not getting asked at the moment because debate is

[00:13:15] dead

[00:13:16] And it's it's a very very important part going forward and whether

[00:13:20] It's a you know coming back to our little world or my little world

[00:13:25] You know the treatment of referees

[00:13:28] I would think of all the different constituents of professional football

[00:13:32] The match officials probably make fewer mistakes than anybody

[00:13:36] Fewer than the players fewer than the managers few of them fucking broadcasters

[00:13:40] You know, I mean, you know, few of them the administrators

[00:13:45] Yeah, they get wrong. They get a few wrong and when they get wrong it

[00:13:49] Obviously affects the credibility big time particularly of var

[00:13:53] But actually, you know that this whole business about are they don't know the game

[00:13:57] They're not paid to know the game that paid to know the rules. Do you know the laws?

[00:14:01] No, you don't do it. No, you're the manager of whatever and you don't actually know the laws of the game

[00:14:05] You're the manager master your night and you think, you know better

[00:14:08] Where the angle of the camera should be to decide the upside

[00:14:12] Than the people who actually set these things up

[00:14:15] And you can say it openly

[00:14:18] Without really anybody saying oh come off Eric. Just do what you do. Okay

[00:14:26] I mean and that them do what they do and from time to time

[00:14:29] You'll have a little bit of a get together and maybe maybe have an input as to how it might be a little bit better

[00:14:34] And they might have a little input and how you might do your job a little bit better and when then we can all get on and improve

[00:14:40] I this isn't the view of an old man. Is it car? This is just

[00:14:45] No, I'm hearing it from 25 and 30 year olds too, by the way

[00:14:49] Yeah, yeah a communication right at the heart of that that you've just said which you know

[00:14:53] It is one of the things especially with var in terms of actually relaying how some of these decisions are made

[00:14:58] It is that transparency of var to take that as one singular point from that

[00:15:03] I think is the thing that because we've we've all been in

[00:15:07] stadiums as as fans and I imagine even as commentator

[00:15:11] You're not always getting the information that you need to to make that call and communication

[00:15:16] I think that is the biggest thing where var which

[00:15:20] Is a controversial point of view as to whether it's improved the game or not

[00:15:23] I think there's definitely elements where it has

[00:15:25] But actually the transparency of that decision being made especially for the fan in the stadium is really really difficult

[00:15:31] And it's five seconds in 90 minutes not even 90 minutes now 110 minutes or however long we play

[00:15:36] Okay, it's an important five seconds because the goal has been scored or whatever penalties been given

[00:15:41] And I get that but this sort of managerial

[00:15:45] viewpoint that we lost 1-0 today, but we had a goal wrongly disallowed in the third minutes

[00:15:50] Therefore we drew 1-1

[00:15:52] No, no if you scored in the third minute the other 87 minutes would have been totally different

[00:15:58] You can't

[00:15:59] Roy Hossam who is

[00:16:01] actually

[00:16:02] I mean what a guy and I've been saying this for years because I know him and you know, I've been out

[00:16:07] Susan and I've been out for supper with Roy and Sheila

[00:16:10] He and you can go out for supper with Roy and not your football, but he is

[00:16:15] What he is and he is a hugely

[00:16:18] intelligent man and that intelligence

[00:16:21] conveys

[00:16:22] In the way that he sets up football teams in actual fact, but he once said to me

[00:16:28] you know

[00:16:30] Football is unwise from the final whistle back to the first whistle. It's played the other way

[00:16:35] You can't do that

[00:16:36] You can't get to the final whistle and say if only they'd done that in the third minute they did one

[00:16:42] No, it's not like that

[00:16:43] It really that if football would be so dull if it was really that predictable, but it's not

[00:16:49] You know, we as commentators we have this

[00:16:53] Kind of we prepare these lines for the opening 10 minutes, you know, oh, there we go. I'm one here for

[00:16:59] Oh, I'm fucking go that's sport all that

[00:17:01] I've been on all that work

[00:17:03] I've done on the first setting up 10 minutes and you've gone and scored a goal

[00:17:07] I wasn't supposed to happen at all. I mean you see it, but I haven't finished reading this bit about

[00:17:11] Aston Villa Ravent one in London for and you've scored a goal

[00:17:15] You know, what's the game?

[00:17:17] Yeah, what's yeah, what's the game see how these moments change the game and that's

[00:17:23] I mean, that's why I've got a job because of the unpredictability the the natural drama of football

[00:17:30] You don't need to dramatize it. You don't need to oversell it. It's fantastic the way it is

[00:17:37] So just reflect it just follow it. You're just the voice

[00:17:41] biggest advice or commentator

[00:17:43] What's the game?

[00:17:48] I know we're not picking favorites

[00:17:50] so I want to just

[00:17:53] I just want to talk about one game that I don't I don't think would have been up there

[00:17:56] But it comes back to a close personal friend again in Roy Hodgson

[00:17:59] Obviously in 2016 against Iceland a very difficult game for England and for you as the voice of it on that night

[00:18:06] And I know when you refer to this in your book that your producer says to you that

[00:18:10] Actually, if the result ends this way Roy's position becomes untenable and having to make that call about a personal friend

[00:18:16] Despite obviously your professional obligations there. I wondered perhaps about that moment, but also just how does that impact?

[00:18:25] Obviously, you can only commentate on what is in front of you and actually a momentous game a wonderful moment

[00:18:32] Versus a moment of real national

[00:18:36] Almost morning that when when the England team go out of the tournament. How does that impact you?

[00:18:41] I know for a fact that Gary Neville's watched that game back three times because he can't work it out

[00:18:45] That's almost like a

[00:18:46] Almost like a fascination. Obviously he was one of Roy's coaches

[00:18:50] I mean the only thing that you needed

[00:18:52] In a game against Iceland was to score the first goal and you score the first goal is over

[00:18:56] Because listen, they were fantastic and the atmosphere they created was fantastic and so on

[00:19:00] but they were a limited football team and if if

[00:19:04] If they've got to chase the game

[00:19:06] Then they've got to come out of their shell

[00:19:08] And because you've got better players on the field, you beat them England gifted the first goal

[00:19:12] I actually handed the first goal. There's a penalty which I mean a nonsense

[00:19:17] A dubious penalty to be honest and so in on a one-up

[00:19:20] And Roy was a funny but right Roy is a funny one. I love him. I absolutely I hug him every time I see him

[00:19:26] But I had his trust and his friendship

[00:19:30] And I had an agreement that around about 12 noon 1 p.m

[00:19:34] I would make a call for an evening game

[00:19:36] And he would take me through his lineup and every time the call started with some pleasantries

[00:19:42] And they say anyway, Roy, I don't want to waste your time big match big day

[00:19:45] He said, well, what do you want?

[00:19:48] Well

[00:19:50] We've agreed make well, you want me to tell you the team

[00:19:53] I um, yeah, listen Roy, it's not a problem. Maybe you don't want well. No. No, I think you know

[00:19:59] I mean, you're not going to tell anybody. No, I know we how long we know you should I

[00:20:03] Honestly had to squeeze it out of him even though we've agreed the call

[00:20:08] I had to absolutely

[00:20:10] Reach in between his his chest somewhere and pull at his heart before he went like she said

[00:20:17] Okay, then

[00:20:20] And then he'd take me through it

[00:20:22] So I knew what they were about Gary Gary's main job

[00:20:27] With the squad at the time was really

[00:20:30] opposition analysis

[00:20:32] Which brought us very close together when England were playing

[00:20:36] Neptune or you know came in islands or something because

[00:20:40] If there was one person who'd done as much work on the opposition Moldova or

[00:20:46] San Marino as the England

[00:20:49] Sort of analysis team. It's me

[00:20:52] And I might just have without betraying confidences

[00:20:55] I might just know a commentator in San Marino who's got an idea how what they're going to do or who's fit and who's not

[00:21:02] So we can trade a little bit of you know, cold war information

[00:21:07] And um, and so Gary and I have spoken on the day of the game Roy and I have spoken on the day of the game

[00:21:12] I know how we're going to play it. I know exactly what we are going to do England when we defend and throw it

[00:21:19] I mean literally to the almost as if I'd been given a marking job of my own

[00:21:24] I know exactly how England are going to defend and throw in

[00:21:27] Because that's how you lose a goal to Iceland that first throwing they scored

[00:21:32] And I knew who hadn't done their jobs

[00:21:35] And there were two fairly high profile players actually by the way

[00:21:39] And I am chewing on my tongue

[00:21:42] I can't it must have been Glenn alongside me

[00:21:44] And I I don't share all of this information with my co-com that because it is so classified

[00:21:50] But I kind of

[00:21:52] I now know what the the hair that's being torn out on the England bench

[00:21:56] Because two people didn't do their jobs on this throwing and now Iceland the level and now we've got the same problem

[00:22:01] We had a kick off you can almost what i'm saying you can have almost too much information that information

[00:22:07] Fed a sympathy for Roy and for Gary and for Ray Lewington

[00:22:11] which

[00:22:12] is now pulling

[00:22:14] on

[00:22:15] My conscience as we go into the last couple of minutes and it's still too one to Iceland and Roy's got to go if England go out

[00:22:22] The guy in my ear is a good friend and a good editorial judge

[00:22:27] And he knows that I've got this personal friendship with Roy

[00:22:30] So he's just reminding me and that's fine

[00:22:33] And I've got a little button I can talk back to him and I think I did say to him

[00:22:37] I did commentate on the 99 chambers late final remember

[00:22:40] I still two minutes to go here and actually Rashford to come on and he's doing a little bit and

[00:22:44] Look like they might equalize

[00:22:46] And who knows from there goes through extra time and we get through and we've been there a million times before

[00:22:50] Cameroon in 1990 and so on and so forth. So

[00:22:54] I'm waiting to the very last minute. Yeah, I promise you

[00:22:59] The Roy Hodgson, I think Roy Hodgson resigned before I said

[00:23:02] 30 seconds after the final whistle that his position is untenable

[00:23:06] I don't think he could get into the press conference quickly enough. He went through that

[00:23:10] Rather strange press conference where he was then being asked to explain why they'd lost the game and

[00:23:16] His argument was well, I've resigned

[00:23:20] It's not my job anymore

[00:23:22] And I in the book. I think I I liken it to you know, they the guy who's just gone down for 30 years

[00:23:28] They don't he doesn't appear on the steps of the old Bailey to explain why he did the murder

[00:23:33] He's he's on his way to the cell

[00:23:35] You know, he's done his bit

[00:23:37] And he's taken his he's taken the rap and Roy actually with all his intelligence couldn't quite get his head around

[00:23:43] How he could resign and then be asked to explain why why England has lost the game. What does it matter?

[00:23:48] I've gone. Yeah, you've got somebody else that were out

[00:23:51] Um, but yeah, I did call it and it probably was as difficult

[00:23:56] You know, you you touched on and I didn't ask you a question about Dave Jones

[00:24:00] Who was a good friend?

[00:24:02] Really close friend who was on the verge of the sack at all and I asked him that question

[00:24:06] Do you think you'll be the manager of walls in a week's time?

[00:24:09] And he said thanks for the the issue and as he walked away, he turned and said thanks, mate

[00:24:14] That's well, thank you. You know, and I've never asked the question again because

[00:24:21] What does it matter what he says? It's not down to me to sack him

[00:24:24] It's the board will do that he was gone in a couple of games

[00:24:28] Later a couple more defeats. I've got it a conscience about that except that

[00:24:33] I asked the question that somehow I was expected to ask as a macho journalist

[00:24:39] And he couldn't answer

[00:24:40] I'm like, so why was I asking it to make myself look good? That's not that's not what the business is about

[00:24:46] So I said that Roy Hodgson has got a fallen sword now

[00:24:51] But it wasn't a brave call it because as I say he was pretty much on his way down

[00:24:56] He's an oppressed converse to resign already as a commentator once the mic is no longer live after

[00:25:02] After such a disappointing defeat versus such an exact victory

[00:25:06] Is there a difference in that kind of adrenaline you're feeling or is your mind already on that next match?

[00:25:12] Yeah, I think we're all pretty selfish. You know, we we do the job and

[00:25:16] It's just better

[00:25:18] It's better for me of England win better for me of Wales win

[00:25:20] I commented on the European semi-final defeat

[00:25:23] It would have been better if they'd won and that's not Chris Coleman was a good

[00:25:27] Is was a good friend. So

[00:25:30] You do have that personal investment, but there's also a selfish thing

[00:25:33] That yeah, you you want to be the voice that caused the 99 final and the 05 final

[00:25:38] You don't want to be the voice that caused Arsenal losing the Barcelona particularly

[00:25:42] Old Manchester United losing the Barcelona again

[00:25:44] It's better when they win and and you've got a good news story

[00:25:48] You know Robin

[00:25:49] Managed to get a voice together to commentate on the World Cup final this year, but it would have been better of England had beaten Spain

[00:25:55] Of course, it would so

[00:25:58] There's a bit of deflation that that comes with

[00:26:02] The opportunity passing I suppose. Yeah

[00:26:06] I mean, you know going back to 99 Manchester United were on the verge of that treble

[00:26:11] And they didn't play very well really against Bayern that there were some reasons for that keen didn't play schools didn't play

[00:26:17] Gigs was on the right and work etc. etc. Beckham was in the middle

[00:26:20] I mean, it wasn't much of a game to be honest

[00:26:24] You know for the most memorable game of my of my own career so far

[00:26:28] Anyway, it wasn't a great football match really until the last 10 minutes

[00:26:32] and and that's when

[00:26:34] Sometimes football matches get overtaken by events and that one particularly did so

[00:26:40] It I think if you happen to listen back to the last 10 minutes

[00:26:45] You can hear the deflation in my voice

[00:26:47] That I've come all this way through all this season

[00:26:50] And they're going to let me down, you know, they're going to lose to go. I've called wrong anyway

[00:26:55] Then there's a heady feeling of calling

[00:26:58] These incredible moments and then as I walked back to the hotel in Barcelona

[00:27:03] And it was like a 20 minute walk back to our hotel and we had sky news in in the room

[00:27:09] and

[00:27:10] I was going to go down and have good few reoccus with the guys

[00:27:14] Whatever the outcome because that you work very much as a team in television

[00:27:19] And there is a real communion in that team

[00:27:21] but I turned on sky news

[00:27:24] Because I mean we are a very tribal

[00:27:27] bunch football fans

[00:27:29] And you don't particularly want Arsenal to win anything ever

[00:27:33] Because that's comes with just being a Tottenham fan, you know, it's very very difficult

[00:27:39] to be gracious and generous about anything that Arsenal do

[00:27:43] And when you're Manchester United, I mean anyone but United, you know, there were a group

[00:27:51] And I wondered having gone big that night

[00:27:55] With all those words which everybody remembers

[00:27:58] I wondered what your average city fan, Liverpool fan, West Ham fan, Leeds fan

[00:28:03] Was thinking about me because they you know, I've

[00:28:06] Sort of I wasn't naive that a lot of those

[00:28:12] Fans would have wanted by and to win the game and then the treble bit

[00:28:15] But when I turned on sky news, it was almost like England had won the World Cup

[00:28:19] It had been so long since we'd had a Champions League win

[00:28:22] And it was the Germans for whatever reason. I don't know not quite that old

[00:28:28] And I felt as I went downstairs to start the reoccon

[00:28:34] That for one night only

[00:28:37] Even the most died in the wall, Liverpool Leeds fans saying to themselves go on and enjoy it

[00:28:44] They deserve it. They're brilliant

[00:28:46] You want it you want it the way you've won your games this season

[00:28:49] Bit crazy football bloody hell all that stuff

[00:28:53] But by the way, when you come to our place in August, you will get dogs abuse

[00:28:57] And that was that's the kind of deal that we do sometimes with the devil that is football

[00:29:04] I think that probably that moment probably captures it

[00:29:08] More than any in in my lifetime that I don't think anybody feels quite strongly about Manchester City

[00:29:14] as they did about Manchester United back then

[00:29:16] Berge and you know, I would love it. I would absolutely love it

[00:29:20] And I would actually not love it if you win all three in 10 days

[00:29:23] But they did and they did it the way they did and I think

[00:29:27] I think for one night only

[00:29:30] Go on you go. We're gonna bed. We're gonna watch another single second fucking till they've ranted on

[00:29:35] Everyone here will enjoy that nonsense, you know, it'd be Gary Newborn next

[00:29:41] But but you know fair play on you go

[00:29:47] So you were also the voice of a number of video games most notably

[00:29:53] That's not real, Carl

[00:29:56] You know that yet

[00:29:59] During my university days, you've called the shots on some very epic battles that I've had myself

[00:30:06] And in your book as well, there's a there's a wonderful story about how your voice was recognised

[00:30:13] At the other side of the world

[00:30:14] My wife organised the most wonderful holiday to the Middle East

[00:30:18] Summer holiday after a tournament. I can't remember which one it was now. I should do

[00:30:23] Um, we went to Jerusalem, which is fascinating to say. I'm not a religious person

[00:30:27] But really really fascinating place to visit and then we crossed over into Jordan and we

[00:30:33] Went to Amman and then we went to Petra

[00:30:37] Wonderful

[00:30:39] And then we went to a place called Wadi Rum, which is kind of a night under the stars in the desert

[00:30:44] they have shot some

[00:30:47] sci-fi movies at Wadi Rum because it is almost like

[00:30:51] It's almost like a lunar landscape, you know something you couldn't possibly create

[00:30:56] So I mean these absolutely spotless skies and your romantic couple

[00:31:01] Night under canvas with a proper lube by the way. I don't really do

[00:31:06] Reading festival anymore. Um, you know, I need

[00:31:10] The first question I asked it are the loose good yet? Well, I'll come so um

[00:31:16] We are being driven out to our canvas under the under these

[00:31:21] Starlit skies in the desert by this Bedouin guy who is obviously part of the the tour the tour company

[00:31:28] and he's got this old G and

[00:31:31] I'm sat in the front next to him

[00:31:33] He's got two young children. I would say about 10 and 12 who've come along with him and my wife sitting next to them

[00:31:40] And so we're

[00:31:41] Rattling through the desert and it's pretty loud. We're shouting at each other a little bit just to be heard

[00:31:46] And he's only got broken English

[00:31:48] um, and my Arabic is non-existent and

[00:31:52] Suddenly the kids are shouting in the back

[00:31:56] And he turns to me and he says

[00:31:58] In jordan in the middle of a desert

[00:32:01] They say you sound like the man from FIFA

[00:32:04] So I turn around to the kids and go, oh, it's a very good afternoon from clouds. I think I

[00:32:09] The man from FIFA

[00:32:11] I said I am the man from FIFA

[00:32:14] Wow

[00:32:15] Are you sure enough if FIFA is um

[00:32:18] Made in several different languages, but not in Arabic. Well, it maybe is in Arabic. No, I don't know

[00:32:22] He wasn't then so the English language version traveled to jordan

[00:32:26] and these

[00:32:27] Kids rather in a rather surreal landscape

[00:32:30] In a very surreal way it met the man from FIFA

[00:32:34] Incredible incredible and for those kids. I'm sure those kids who are adults now

[00:32:38] I'm sure remember that moment still to this day. That's incredible. It's not real

[00:32:44] You do know that

[00:32:48] I've still got some of those old ones as well

[00:32:50] It was as hard as I worked. It was uh, it was five days recording in a studio in ward or street

[00:32:56] Eight hours a day

[00:32:57] But it wasn't the beginning. I I rather did myself out of some recording money because once they got

[00:33:04] All the through to onto into

[00:33:07] Uh, that worked for every year

[00:33:09] They didn't they then needed me for four days and then three days and then two days so

[00:33:15] Uh, but it was a fascinating experience. It's made in Vancouver

[00:33:18] Um, I said it is made it's it no longer well, it does exist, but there are now

[00:33:23] You know, we we now have a

[00:33:25] Parting of the ways in FIFA land

[00:33:28] I I went out to Vancouver to

[00:33:30] um do a couple of seminars

[00:33:32] for the guys who did the soundtrack for

[00:33:36] For FIFA and it was it was I mean

[00:33:39] Going to Vancouver is a wonderful experience a great city

[00:33:41] But it was fascinating to meet the AI guys and the programmers and

[00:33:46] and

[00:33:46] tried to put together a program where

[00:33:50] The soundtrack was sound more authentic because I knew because I had young sons who played it

[00:33:57] The the original script

[00:33:59] With that I inherited from motty fun enough

[00:34:02] Had sort of bursting the onion bag and all that which is fine

[00:34:06] Once but if you play FIFA phrase ours which kids do and actually not kids. I mean the average

[00:34:13] Age of a gamer is now about 45 or something stupid. It's crazy. You know bursting the onion bag's fine

[00:34:19] First time and okay the second time, but when you hear it

[00:34:22] 10 times in an hour

[00:34:24] So I tried to kind of tone down the script and make it easier to digest just that that going back to what we spoke about years ago

[00:34:32] About the soundtrack to the movie

[00:34:34] It is a visual experience FIFA

[00:34:37] And so you don't want the soundtrack to get in the way. So I rewrote the entire script

[00:34:41] You are back on the champions league shifts in the coming weeks ahead

[00:34:46] You with cbs and paramount plus and I wondered all of that

[00:34:51] Preparation that you do perhaps for those teams you see week in week out

[00:34:54] How does that differ when you're perhaps

[00:34:57] Or an international team doing your preparation for a champions league game

[00:35:02] With a team that you're not watching week in week out. Well, it's very different from

[00:35:06] When I first did european football in terms of accessing information because it's all there now

[00:35:11] It's very very easy to watch tapes of

[00:35:14] The Romanian second division let alone, you know, paris san germano by munic or whatever whoever so

[00:35:20] There are no excuses for not being across the information. There are lots of websites in things language which cover those major clubs

[00:35:28] specifically so

[00:35:30] In terms of info

[00:35:32] It's very very different from when I started my

[00:35:35] career

[00:35:37] I'm commentating on champions league now for an american audience, but cbs

[00:35:42] are

[00:35:43] Almost insistent that rob green and I commentate pretty much as if we were accommodating to a european audience

[00:35:50] Change transfer fees to dollars change temperature to far and well

[00:35:54] It's interesting actually when I was doing the talk sport commentaries, which I

[00:35:58] Stood back from now because I didn't feel comfortable doing the in-game odds, but

[00:36:04] This will sound like a bit of a sales pitch. I obviously i'm one of the older commentators still working

[00:36:09] And I get that, you know, I get the need to refresh and renew and

[00:36:14] And there are certainly lots of very very good young commentators around

[00:36:18] But I was pretty much the only commentator I was aware of who

[00:36:21] Commented from time to time in 30 meters

[00:36:25] And I got a few sort of inquiries about that and

[00:36:29] well

[00:36:30] We've got four kids between 28 and 32

[00:36:33] And they they think in terms of meters that so I'm reckoning now that probably half the talk sport audience

[00:36:41] And it was almost like it's almost like people half my age hadn't worked that out

[00:36:45] Yeah, they thought I was

[00:36:47] Being a bit perverse

[00:36:49] That's again the job to recognize your audience and commentator. I didn't do everything

[00:36:54] 18-yard box and six-yard box are what they are

[00:36:57] They are measured in yards and that will never change in football

[00:37:00] so

[00:37:01] It's a little bit like, you know, we're rugby commentary became the 25 to the 22 and so on but

[00:37:06] You know, you are trying

[00:37:08] To sort of keep moving it on and understanding what the audience wants from you

[00:37:14] But yeah, I mean I I digress perhaps in terms of my own interests

[00:37:20] Champions League in the States is growing CBS do it really well. They throw everything at it

[00:37:26] We've got Micah and Thierry and Cara. We've got Kate Apto is absolutely

[00:37:32] outstanding as a presenter

[00:37:34] I mean she is so good

[00:37:36] So so good and she just gets them and keeps them in check

[00:37:40] It's there's a little bit of light entertainment woven into it

[00:37:44] but they do proper analysis and

[00:37:48] Rob Green's a really really good co-commentator

[00:37:51] I mean the only downside for me is that, you know, my mum doesn't hear it. I mean, you know

[00:37:56] I've lost

[00:37:58] My profile in terms of UK broadcasting, but it is

[00:38:03] Yeah, Champions League is very dear to me and

[00:38:06] The first two games I've got this season of by Munich versus Mersi United and the Castley United versus PSG

[00:38:12] I mean you're looking at some other

[00:38:15] You know, and Bapé is going to play and Kane's going to play and

[00:38:19] You know, but Brin and Fernandez is going to play and

[00:38:23] Gimha Resh is going to I mean these are some of the best

[00:38:26] footballers in the world and

[00:38:28] it is just

[00:38:31] There is something about it which even though the fixes start to recur

[00:38:36] And we get a bit a little bit used to Champions League group stages

[00:38:41] Some of the quality and some of the drama and some of the

[00:38:45] Champions League games we've seen just in the last

[00:38:47] Five six seven years. It is quite something it really is

[00:38:51] And that that enthusiasm that you've you've retained from those first Manchester United games

[00:38:56] I think is what's made you such an enduring broadcaster and commentator

[00:38:59] I I know you have mentioned that you believe that commentators being in terms of that kind of back-in-track to the moments

[00:39:06] But those moments I think to us fans mean mean huge huge amounts

[00:39:10] And I think those those words that you utter in those moments

[00:39:13] So all that preparation that goes into it to actually be in that position to say that thing

[00:39:19] Will live with us as fans forever. So I think it's a yeah a hugely important role in Clive

[00:39:23] You've played a big part in many of our lives as fans

[00:39:26] Yeah prep's easy. You could do the prep. The prep's not a problem

[00:39:30] It's all there and it's very easy to do the research

[00:39:33] You just need a little bit of time and then a bit of an editorial mind

[00:39:38] How you use the preparation how how you use the information you glean be it from

[00:39:44] Trialic Fergis and Roy Hudson or be it from

[00:39:48] Soccer Base or transfer market

[00:39:50] It's how you bring that information together

[00:39:54] To do what Martin Brundle does to do what NASA is saying does to to you know to do what

[00:40:01] the great analysts of

[00:40:03] Of modern sports broadcasting do but within football and we can get a little bit

[00:40:09] We can start to gazed at a little bit too much at the naval

[00:40:12] You know and start to discuss inverted fallbacks until we fall it's not really about that. Is it it's a

[00:40:18] Football goes. Yeah, it's an interesting conversation

[00:40:22] to have but when we start drawing lines and I'm picking apart almost personalities

[00:40:29] Then I think we're going a little bit too far. You know football

[00:40:32] Is played

[00:40:34] Yeah, of course it's played with the head just what commentary is done with the head

[00:40:37] It's a test of concentration first and foremost if you're good enough as a footballer

[00:40:41] It's a test of your concentration

[00:40:43] But then it's played with the heart that that's the difference that the bits of commentary which you'll remember

[00:40:51] They come from in there

[00:40:52] They don't they don't really come from there the timing and the rhythm may be come from a little bit of practice

[00:40:58] And it's the same with the players

[00:41:00] They they practice and practice and practice

[00:41:03] So that at that moment

[00:41:05] When and you see the great goal scorer the great goal scorer

[00:41:08] Relaxes the point they're one-on-one with a goalkeeper

[00:41:12] They're not tense. They are relaxed

[00:41:15] They stroke it into the corner of the net or they take it around the keeper and that's

[00:41:21] If I can somehow apply some of that to what we do

[00:41:25] or try to do

[00:41:26] it is

[00:41:28] To find something in the moment, which is just a little bit different from as red used to say

[00:41:35] Something a little bit better than amazing incredible fantastic

[00:41:38] What what have we just seen here?

[00:41:40] Yeah, and you can take five or six seven seconds to wait because that that's okay

[00:41:46] It's great if you shout the goal scorer's names. It goes in that's wonderful

[00:41:50] But then if you've done that and if and you've got the right guy

[00:41:53] Or girl

[00:41:54] Then you can pause and think what comes next and that is what makes

[00:41:59] Say not aguero

[00:42:01] It's what he says next. That's what makes that piece of commentary

[00:42:06] You know probably the most famous piece of Premier League commentary of all time and that brought you back to Premier League nostalgia

[00:42:12] But beautifully

[00:42:16] And I'll do that return in terms of that preparation because your commentary charts are literally now a work of art

[00:42:23] And people can get hold of them

[00:42:24] Do you want to tell people just a little bit more about that for anyone who doesn't know?

[00:42:28] But I mean these are these

[00:42:31] Yeah, I

[00:42:33] The the the research notes that I prepare for football games

[00:42:36] are

[00:42:38] Really quite sad, but very very neat in three different four different colors

[00:42:42] And they're all the players or the information everything that you would want to know about a football match

[00:42:47] So if you've got a great game in your life

[00:42:51] Um, there may just be a commentary chart for it at commentary charts dot com

[00:42:55] Um, which I've compiled and handwritten

[00:42:58] Which is nice because if you hang it if you've got a downstairs lou or whatever you've got

[00:43:04] Um, please don't tell me you've got a man. You can't man cave's a little good. Don't have a man cave

[00:43:10] Man caves are bad

[00:43:12] But whatever you've got and you want to hang this little piece of memorabilia

[00:43:16] Um, all it does is tell you about the game at kickoff

[00:43:20] It doesn't tell you the story of the game because it's just what I've got in front of me

[00:43:25] At kickoff to refer to

[00:43:27] You have your own story your own memories and that's

[00:43:31] That's what football is. That's why I've avoided all of Carl's traditional questions about desert island

[00:43:37] Which game which player and which wag I would take to a desert island. I've done none of that tonight

[00:43:43] uh, because

[00:43:45] It belongs in those moments. That's what's special about them. They are some of the most vivid memories of our life, which is

[00:43:52] kind of crazy and kind of disturbing

[00:43:55] That kind of wonderful too

[00:43:57] 100% and not for me clive as well. If you I mean if you've enjoyed this chat, I've thoroughly enjoyed this chat

[00:44:04] And can I just say that I I had um the audiobook version and if you've been enjoying listening to this let me tell you

[00:44:12] You can you can enjoy um, there's one or two tales that we've touched upon here

[00:44:16] There's many many more some fantastic

[00:44:19] Insights into working with Sir Alex Ferguson with Brian cloth. Um, so yeah

[00:44:23] Available for more good bookstores and and audio sellers. I mean how how was that process right in the book?

[00:44:28] Well, it's during covids so as as the great Shakespeare would have said was fuck all else to do

[00:44:37] I did enjoy I love writing. I really

[00:44:40] It's one of the weird things is I don't read a great deal

[00:44:44] But I love I am totally in awe of great writing. I mean if

[00:44:49] I watch and we've talked a little bit about football about comedy dramas a little bit earlier

[00:44:54] Let me think of something well the responder, which I think is a wonderful piece of television

[00:44:59] Which is written by a guy called Tony Schumacher

[00:45:02] who's big epitonian zams

[00:45:05] and

[00:45:06] I mean

[00:45:07] X would formally Twitter

[00:45:09] Close brackets is a dreadful thing really

[00:45:12] But you can actually make direct contact with people

[00:45:16] Who you would never normally meet and

[00:45:18] And Tony and I've made contact through X

[00:45:21] for me to tell him

[00:45:23] Wow

[00:45:24] I couldn't have done that. Have you done that the blank 90 minutes that I get at the start of a

[00:45:29] Football commentary is a privilege. It's it is a blank canvas in a sense

[00:45:33] although

[00:45:34] Lots of colors on it already, which I'm just referring to but

[00:45:38] Yeah, the empty page the empty

[00:45:41] Word document

[00:45:42] Is is a challenge. I mean you you must

[00:45:46] write ultimately

[00:45:48] There's a lot of improv improv in

[00:45:51] In your work as a stand-up guide, but you you can't go on stage without something in your head, which you've written

[00:45:57] You know, I mean I

[00:45:59] The latest Daraa Breen show who I like Daraa very much

[00:46:02] And I've got to know him too just through being able to tell him how good I think he is

[00:46:08] I am just wow

[00:46:10] How good are you?

[00:46:11] You know, how good is that it's slightly depressing. I guess you you must watch shows and think I can't do that

[00:46:20] I know he's good as him or her. I just won't be and I was a bit like that really when I kind of got the Brian Moore thing

[00:46:26] You know when I what finished up being jumped up and thinking I should have that semifinal. I'm younger than him

[00:46:33] Then I got actually the contact that he made with people

[00:46:37] He'll never meet which is what broadcasting is. I'm sure you're not going to ask me what I want on my gravestone

[00:46:43] I'll probably get fried anyway, but

[00:46:46] The biggest compliment I get

[00:46:48] Is when people say

[00:46:50] You were the voice of something in my past something

[00:46:54] You know voices of my childhood whatever whatever and I'm not pretending for one moment

[00:46:59] I got hundred people knocking at the front door saying you were the voice of my child

[00:47:03] No, but occasionally somebody will say something like that. I'm bucking speechless. I just want to hug and

[00:47:10] Well, probably wouldn't kiss them because how does it work out too well?

[00:47:15] Very true indeed

[00:47:18] Clive Tillsley what a wonderful place to end it when it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me

[00:47:24] All right. Do good work. Carl

[00:47:26] Thank you

[00:47:33] So that was Clive Tillsley part two what a

[00:47:39] Fantastic guy. I'm still just listening and watching that back just slightly in awe that he

[00:47:44] Responded to the email at all gave up his time gave up two hours of his time and was so generous in his answers and his candor and

[00:47:53] Just such a lovely lovely bloke and he is still a spring chicken in commentator terms

[00:47:59] I think there is still at least another decade of Clive Tillsley broadcasting football to us and

[00:48:06] Broadcasting as he said, I think is the word he is a broadcaster with huge experience

[00:48:12] And I really really hope that in the decade ahead he gets that

[00:48:17] Recognition that he deserves he is one of the most familiar voices of football and a lovely lovely man

[00:48:23] And yeah, I just can't believe really that he came on the show. I'm really really grateful

[00:48:29] So thank you Clive and I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did

[00:48:34] We've already covered it that actually Clive's audiobook and his autobiography is out

[00:48:39] So a great Christmas present for somebody. I really recommend the audiobook

[00:48:43] I listened to that a lot by Pauline france

[00:48:45] Um, I'd started listening to it before I'd emailed him and then started to listen to it quite rapidly

[00:48:50] Over the next few days because I knew that I got the interview coming up with him

[00:48:54] and it is basically an extended version of this podcast him telling those stories and

[00:49:00] Really, there's one or two things that he touched upon across these two chats that I didn't dig into because we didn't have time to

[00:49:06] But those rollerkins he got from Sir Alex Ferguson are in there

[00:49:10] There are many many stories that we just didn't get time to touch upon

[00:49:14] I would hugely recommend getting that from audible or

[00:49:17] By his book and if you're looking for a great Christmas present

[00:49:20] His commentary charts are absolutely phenomenal. A really really lovely gift perhaps to hint if you're listening to this show

[00:49:28] Let's face it. You're probably the kind of person who would like to receive one of these commentary charts

[00:49:32] Rather than buy one for someone else. So I'd be dropping a few hints right now

[00:49:36] The links are in the description

[00:49:38] They are absolutely stunning if you haven't seen them a great Christmas present idea or gift idea

[00:49:44] For the football knot in your life, especially if there's a match that cliva's covered that really really means something to them

[00:49:52] so

[00:49:53] That is the end of season two of when football began again

[00:49:56] And all that's left really for me to say at this point is a huge thank you to everybody who's listened and watched during this season

[00:50:03] There has been a big big jump in the numbers which is absolutely fantastic and really really encouraging as ever

[00:50:10] I party needs such sweet sorrow. I wish that I could continue this week in week out

[00:50:14] It's simply not possible. Unfortunately to keep up the production and the time frame of a weekly episode

[00:50:21] However, I will be back in the early spring

[00:50:24] I've already got some of those interviews in the bag and it is going to be a really really

[00:50:30] Fantastic season yet again. I've got some brilliant interviews. Jim White the journalist Jules Warren the sky sports news broadcaster

[00:50:37] Jack Campbell the comedian a former English comedian of the year

[00:50:41] They are just three of the people that I have on the next season

[00:50:45] And i'm also working on a little bit of an international flavor of this show for the summer break over

[00:50:53] The european championships as well. So do keep an eye out for that

[00:50:56] So please subscribe subscribe wherever you get your podcast subscribe on youtube

[00:51:01] Do vice versa if you listen go find us on youtube and vice versa wherever you get your podcast

[00:51:06] If you're watching this I would love to have you along for the incredible episodes that i've got lined up for season three

[00:51:15] Please leave the show a review if you can a five star review on apple or on spotify

[00:51:21] Really really helps us find new people and share the show and all the links that you need to do that are in the description

[00:51:28] But that is it for season two

[00:51:30] I may well put a couple of small compilations out from some of the best bits from season two as well to go over the

[00:51:36] Christmas and new year period

[00:51:38] But i'll be back in the early spring with season three of when football began again

[00:51:44] I hope you'll join me then so please do subscribe

[00:51:47] And I will see you back in the early spring for more premier league nostalgia until then. Thank you for watching

[00:51:53] Thank you for listening. I'll see you in 2024