Jason Lee on Forest in Europe, Fantasy Football and EDI in the modern game

[00:00:00] I think I was brought to their attention first and foremost because of my hairstyle,

[00:00:03] my unique hairstyle and the fact that I was playing in the Premier League. Then it became very sinister

[00:00:09] and the fact that you know you're ridiculing someone on a regular basis. I wasn't the only player

[00:00:15] that they did that to but then you want to compound the fact that you're black facing and

[00:00:19] it was a different period then where humour banter a lot of it was accepted by a lot of people

[00:00:26] you know there wasn't anything I could really do to intervene. If you spoke out about it people

[00:00:30] would say you're being soft get on with it you know what's the problem haven't you got a sense of humour

[00:00:36] so I kind of grew up in an environment where you couldn't really talk about anything like that

[00:00:40] anyway. Hello and welcome to When Football Began Again the podcast that's willfully

[00:00:46] avoiding FFP charges on its way to world dominance. Today's show is an in-depth

[00:00:53] chat with former Premier League striker, star of the 90s one of the most recognisable faces in football

[00:01:00] at that time albeit perhaps sometimes for the wrong reasons we talk about in a great deal of that.

[00:01:05] It is Jason Lee the Nottingham Forest striker, wonderful wonderful guy really really interesting

[00:01:13] chat all of that is coming up in a moment. Before then thank you to everybody who watched

[00:01:20] or listened to Jules Warren's show last week really really nice to have Jules on the show

[00:01:27] I'm actually pre-recording this before that show has gone out so I don't quite know what the

[00:01:32] response to that has been but I'm pretty sure it's going to be great. Jules Warren is one of

[00:01:37] the nicest guys in football and if you're back listening after that show thank you very

[00:01:42] much for coming back. All of the links you need for today's show to watch or listen

[00:01:47] to share the show to leave a review are in the description as well as a link to Jason Lee's podcast

[00:01:53] The Absolutely Podcast something that I accidentally say quite a bit. I say the word absolutely

[00:02:00] quite a few times I had no idea that I did this I'm subliminally like like kind of promoting

[00:02:06] his podcast throughout most of this episode which he which he does mention at the end

[00:02:12] but let's get on with it. Jason Lee really really lovely guy and someone who really went

[00:02:20] through the ringer in the 90s long before kind of all of the supporter care was around

[00:02:27] footballers and all of that kind of additional support footballers in the 90s I think we're

[00:02:32] just kind of thrust into the spotlight and Jason Lee as a very young player was thrust

[00:02:38] into the spotlight in a very unwelcome way we talk about that we talk about his rise to the

[00:02:42] league ladder we talk about his career today and how that's been influenced by his life experiences

[00:02:47] it's a brilliant chat I hope you enjoy it as much as I did so here we go this is my chat with Jason Lee

[00:02:58] Jason Lee Jason thank you for joining me how are you doing? I'm good Carl listen looking forward

[00:03:03] to having that conversation and a little catch up so nice to meet you. You too you too an absolute

[00:03:09] pleasure to have you on well I mean the first thing I've got to say I've got to stop being

[00:03:15] surprised by how fantastic professional athletes are still looking sort of 20 years later I don't

[00:03:19] really know why I've still not quite got that in my head yet that that's what happens but

[00:03:24] you're looking good you're a regular at the City Grand Stilts as well of course aren't you?

[00:03:29] Yeah you say that that's not always the case with with former athletes I mean it

[00:03:34] I think a lot of pros when they finish they just don't want to do anything ever again you know some

[00:03:41] pros have to be kind of forced to actually do the work even during their career but

[00:03:46] yeah for me I try to maintain and keep moving and just look after myself although I'm complaining

[00:03:52] about my back today I'm generally in good health just normal ailments that you get from

[00:03:57] wear and tear of being a sportsman and playing for a long period of time but yes I go to Forest Games

[00:04:03] I've got an ambassador role at the club so I tend to visit and go to as many home games as possible.

[00:04:09] Nice nice yeah things are well things have been pretty good in the last in the last couple

[00:04:13] years we'll come to that as well and we're going to go back to the start of your career

[00:04:17] though we'll come to your playing career in a moment you were born in London in 1971

[00:04:21] which point in your childhood did you realise did maybe people around you realise that you had this

[00:04:28] sport in talent and how did that kind of transpire then to in academies and such like?

[00:04:34] I played sports like most children it wasn't until the age of 10 that I went to my first

[00:04:42] Sunday league team really I was in the school teams my mum took me to my first team

[00:04:48] to play in they put me in goal as you do I suppose you're a new a new person to the side you have

[00:04:54] to prove yourself so I started off in goal and then it didn't take long for me to work my way

[00:04:59] kind of up the pitch really playing defence, playing midfield, played striker but I was with

[00:05:04] that team for a couple of years before I moved on to a few other better Sunday league sides

[00:05:09] really and it wasn't really until 16 or just just before 16 which you can get a scholarship

[00:05:15] back in the day it was a YTS youth training scheme that I was picked up by a professional club which

[00:05:21] was really frustrating because I felt that I was good enough and the academy systems wasn't like

[00:05:25] they are now where you get drawn in you know at the age of six or seven or whatever it may be

[00:05:31] and then have a long period of time in an academy but there were people that I was playing

[00:05:35] with at school and in Sunday league sides that were at clubs so I felt I was good enough but

[00:05:41] it just didn't happen my local club closest club to me would have been Leighton Orient we played all

[00:05:46] our cup finals on the pitch on the main pitch at Brisbane Road some of my teammates were at Leighton

[00:05:52] Orient and Tottenham and wherever it may be and I was one of the probably one of the last ones

[00:05:56] really to get picked up but we had some good players out of my school and my Sunday league

[00:06:02] sides you know myself Jonathan Goodman who was an Irish international republic played for

[00:06:06] Millwall he also played for Wimbledon he played for Wimbledon in the Premier League

[00:06:09] that was Bobby Barry played for Crystal Palace in the Premier League so we had a number of players

[00:06:16] there was a few a year younger a few a year older who went on to have decent careers you think

[00:06:23] you're good enough but it's about opportunity and getting getting getting scouted really and

[00:06:28] being in the right place at the right time I liked athletics I liked basketball I played all sports

[00:06:35] football wasn't my main interest but I just tended to play a lot of sports and every day

[00:06:40] after school I was invariably doing something you know whether it be a for school team or

[00:06:45] or an after-school club and then eventually Charlton I think at the time that picked

[00:06:51] you up and at that point you sent out on loan as well to Stockpaw eventually moved to Lincoln

[00:06:57] City where your career really begins to take off as well there in 1991 what is that like

[00:07:02] as a young player I suppose you get that move to Charlton you're being sent you know Charlton

[00:07:05] to Stockport to one hell of a big change I imagine and leaving London and moving that far north as

[00:07:12] well so is that quite a difficult period in your career when you're really trying to make it I

[00:07:16] imagine self-belief is a huge part of getting through that I talked to a lot of young players

[00:07:21] about this all the time really in terms of you never know where it's going to take you

[00:07:24] in some of the sacrifices you have to make and invariably you have to put yourself in

[00:07:29] uncomfortable situations sometimes so I went in at Charlton at 16 signed my scholarship made my

[00:07:36] day being the first team at 17 so things snowballed really quickly and you mentioned Stockpaw as

[00:07:42] being a loan spell but that wasn't my first loan spell my first loan spell would have been

[00:07:47] the conference with a manager called Malcolm Allison who was a legendary figure in football

[00:07:53] managed man city in Crystal Palace and he came down to the training ground and he was watching

[00:07:57] me playing the reserves you know as I mentioned I played in the first team at 17 and I was frustrated

[00:08:03] you know I made my debut at 17 I've only been in the pro game for a year and I want to play more

[00:08:07] first team games so for me to be kicking my heels in the youth team in the reserves which is a good

[00:08:11] standard but especially in those days those that wasn't playing the first team would play in the

[00:08:17] reserves you know mid-week or whatever it may be so you had really good core of players

[00:08:22] and you could really accelerate your career in that respect so for me it was a good education I

[00:08:28] learned very quickly Malcolm Allison took me on loan to a team called Fisher Athletic who was playing

[00:08:33] in the conference then and obviously they've gone out out of the game I think they went into

[00:08:36] administration and wound up whatever maybe but that's in the Rotherhive area of London

[00:08:42] and I did a month there and I've thoroughly enjoyed it you know Malcolm Allison I learned

[00:08:46] a lot from him in that short period of time knew what he stood for and what it was about

[00:08:49] in terms of how he was perceived in football and that for me was great it gave me the confidence I

[00:08:54] needed when I went back to Charlton again I felt I needed to go out and play first team

[00:08:59] football as opposed to playing in the reserves and youth team and then stopball yeah that was

[00:09:04] an opportunity for me to go out to the stopball which would have been in my second year

[00:09:08] my second scholarship in second year of my scholarship so I'd have been probably 18 when

[00:09:11] I went out the second time and that was difficult because being a London boy the only time I

[00:09:16] I've entered out of London would have been probably on a coach with the teams are going to play football

[00:09:20] so for me to land in stopball on a month's loan the weather was terrible snow I had to live in digs

[00:09:28] with some other young pros which was really weird because I didn't I didn't go in digs as a youth

[00:09:33] team player a lot a lot of young players actually going to digs but I didn't want to go into digs

[00:09:39] being an East London boy traveling over to South London for Charlton I really didn't want

[00:09:43] to be staying over there longer than I needed to I finally enjoyed my month even though as I said

[00:09:48] the conditions wasn't great and it looked like I was going to sign for them but I actually signed

[00:09:53] for Lincoln City instead of signing for stopball and I actually didn't go back to Charlton after

[00:09:58] my loan spell at at stopball I signed I signed for Steve Thompson who was my teammate at Charlton

[00:10:04] Athletic who was a captain at Charlton who was playing in reserves with me at Charlton

[00:10:09] you've got the manager player manager role at Lincoln and you can see how things work in football

[00:10:13] so he took me to he took me to Lincoln and that was really the the start of my of my development

[00:10:19] and my career where I was able to get a lot of games under my belt at a young age you score a lot

[00:10:24] of goals at Lincoln which eventually then attracts the interest of South and United as well who

[00:10:29] then take you on there in the second tier so again you're working your way up through the

[00:10:34] league ladder at this stage at still in your still in your early 20s at this point and then

[00:10:38] Nottingham Forest of course then basically sign you as well when did you become aware that

[00:10:44] Forest were interested in you and you know again what are those sort of decisions like what goes

[00:10:50] into that decision when you're how does that work when a side like Forest approached you in

[00:10:54] the mid 90s? Things happen very quickly so as I alluded to earlier when I speak to young

[00:10:59] players if you get the opportunity to go out on loan and go and get first team football

[00:11:05] it's imperative that you go and do that because some players will sit there at an academy it's

[00:11:10] very comfortable especially if they're Premier League and play development football which is

[00:11:14] what it is now under 21s under 23s and it's very sanitised it's very comfortable you know

[00:11:19] there's not three points at the end of the day they're encouraged to go and play through

[00:11:23] the thirds it's all pretty football you know I've coached for 10 years so I you know I know

[00:11:27] what coaching is about you're encouraged to just go and play and be comfortable so

[00:11:30] when someone says you want to go out on loan and you want to travel to the other end of the

[00:11:33] country invariably a lot of these guys will say no that's not really something I want to do

[00:11:38] and it's not an easy decision to make but when I went to Lincoln I played you know 90 plus

[00:11:44] league games over a few years scored some goals you know at the age of 19 to 21 I think if

[00:11:51] you're a young player and you've played a lot of games that he's going to bring bring you to

[00:11:55] the attention of people you know it's myself there was Deon Dublin Julian Joachim you know

[00:11:59] lots of young players lots of young strikers who were playing first in football who would

[00:12:05] and I can remember their names in the clubs and also with the connection of um not in a forest

[00:12:10] Lincoln's not too far from from not in a forest and we would play reserve games and behind closed

[00:12:15] doors friendly so you know I was playing against Forrest and Knox County and teams in and around

[00:12:20] the Midlands so they would have had an understanding of who I was and what I was doing

[00:12:24] and the fact that I was playing first team football at that age which would have been something

[00:12:27] that their younger players wouldn't have been doing and it happened quickly so in the March

[00:12:32] no at the end of at the end of the season um two seasons at that Lincoln in this season

[00:12:36] I had the opportunity really to to step up Steve Thompson had a connection with Colin Murphy

[00:12:42] who was a former former Lincoln legend and manager he was director of football at South End and

[00:12:48] the newly appointed manager was Barry Frye who I knew who had been playing against whilst

[00:12:53] he was at Barnett and always did you know always did well against Barnett always scored

[00:12:58] goals throughout my career against Barnett and his teams so he knew what I was what I was about

[00:13:02] so there was a connection there Barry was very good with his um networking and he's scouting with

[00:13:09] low league players myself Tommy Mooney he signed Tommy Mooney from Scarborough

[00:13:13] he signed myself but Angel was still there South End was a championship club now you know

[00:13:19] playing in the first division or division two then and with the different formats and that

[00:13:26] sold Stan Collymore to not in the forest who was at Palace whilst I was at Charlton Frank Clark was

[00:13:32] at uh Leighton Orient as director of football and then manager so you can see the connections

[00:13:38] of how people know people so he knew myself he knew me and Stan and he knew some players

[00:13:43] like Kevin Campbell who he took on loan from Arsenal you could see where things may have come

[00:13:48] about and when when coaches and managers say I remember you here there and everywhere I always

[00:13:52] say to young players who never know it's watching because that's literally what happened when I was

[00:13:56] playing certain games certain coaches and managers was watching and they knew what I was about so

[00:14:01] very quickly I went from Lincoln to South End and in March of the same season not in the forest

[00:14:07] came in for me and I ended up going to Forest as well Forest said was playing in the same

[00:14:11] division and South End had been relegated the year before it was wine class last year

[00:14:16] so I was part of a promotion with not in the forest you know from March the end of the season

[00:14:21] which culminated with us getting promotion at Peterborough another one of my former clubs

[00:14:26] you can see how things can happen very quickly and you know literally played for three

[00:14:29] three teams over the course of a year you know whether it be Lincoln South and then

[00:14:33] not in the forest and the jump jump jump so I certainly felt like I was ready for it

[00:14:38] I did my my apprenticeship and did the hard you know the hard duty and traveled the miles

[00:14:43] and did what I had to do and and pride my trade at all levels of the game so yeah it's fantastic

[00:14:48] when it when Forest were a big club very established Premier League club when they show interest it

[00:14:53] was a no-brainer really that you're going to take the opportunity and having worked through

[00:14:58] all levels of the game in such quick pace I mean what were the kind of differences from

[00:15:03] playing at fourth tier when you're at Central Bank versus when you're making your debut

[00:15:09] in the Premier League for Forest like what are the principal differences between the opponents you're

[00:15:14] coming up against physicality and mentality you know the lower league is more physical I mean even now

[00:15:21] it's still going to be more physical if a Premier League team plays a league two team in an FA Cup

[00:15:25] tier whatever it may be yeah you're not going to compete playing the same style of football

[00:15:29] are you but even leads you know lead two sides now do tend to play more football and they will

[00:15:34] still try and play out you know to keep a roll it out and this and the other that would say is

[00:15:39] physicality and as I as I went up the leagues I found the game actually easier in terms of

[00:15:45] not having to get involved in battles physically it was more about you know what you're going to

[00:15:49] do when you've got the ball you know players are smarter they'll have a little look at you

[00:15:54] they might drop off and you don't really get into those same physical battles so for me

[00:15:58] the step up wasn't too difficult you're judged then on your quality and and how consistent can you be

[00:16:05] you know at that top level because you know the best players play at the top level for a longer

[00:16:10] period of time for a reason they're very consistent day in day out and they're able to produce

[00:16:18] we use this big money sign in Brian Roy I think for their winner it's only Premier League W

[00:16:22] you assist to Brian Roy there didn't you yeah Stan was missing for the opening day and we

[00:16:26] played Ipswich away and myself and Brian Roy up top and yeah I got the assist I got the flick on

[00:16:32] Brian Roy fantastic finish from distance I think we won 1-0 away Ipswich so that was set us up

[00:16:38] we was up and running for the Premier League campaign and I think the next game

[00:16:42] which I wasn't happy about but I was dropped you know he didn't say I was dropped but Stan

[00:16:47] was 50 foot Stan up top with Brian Roy and it was Manchester United live on TV and to be fair

[00:16:53] to Stan he scored and had a great game but I was kicking my heels on the bench because you know

[00:16:57] nobody wants to to be on the bench and especially against Manchester United no absolutely and

[00:17:03] obviously it's I mean it's incredible first season back in the top flight for Forrest I mean

[00:17:08] obviously finishing third that season you play a huge part in that it is yourself Stan

[00:17:13] and Brian Roy who are the three main strikers in that team and I mean if they they had

[00:17:20] obviously a little bit of a partnership going on as well I think during that season how does that

[00:17:25] work how competitive is it in training and so on because clearly you're all teammates you want the

[00:17:31] team to do well but as you say you're a striker you're on the bench you want to be on the pitch

[00:17:35] so how how does that work psychologically and does that just depend on the individuals and

[00:17:40] characters involved I mean I mean the squads are bigger now so you've got that problem in

[00:17:45] Premier League and Championship they'll have squads of 25 but they've probably got 60 pros

[00:17:49] on the books because under 21s under 23s and scholars as well so there's a lot of numbers

[00:17:55] and there's there's a lot to deal with and you've got to believe in yourself when I first went in at

[00:17:59] Charlton having not been in an academy and this and the other from the age of 16 soon as I went

[00:18:04] in my vision was I want to be in the first team I don't really want to be on this pitch

[00:18:10] I want to be on that pitch where the first team players are so only 11 can play so I'd be

[00:18:14] kicking literally kicking everybody to try and get over there because if there's an opportunity

[00:18:18] you want to leave your mark so that always remained and stayed with me throughout my career so

[00:18:24] the year we got promoted and was back in the Premier League with Forrest I wasn't happy being

[00:18:29] second fiddle and being on the bench but you know Stan produced he scored 25 goals

[00:18:34] he played a big part in in the fact that Forrest attained third place alongside Brian

[00:18:40] great partnership money you know big money was spent on Brian to bring him to the club

[00:18:44] and I was probably for I was third choice which you know in hindsight is not the worst thing Brian

[00:18:49] more was a Dutch international played in in the World Cup that's where we signed him off the back

[00:18:54] of that Stan was obviously a prejudice talent and we all know what Stan could do he was a

[00:19:00] fantastic player but for me if you've got that ambition you still want to play so I was

[00:19:05] you know I was never satisfied with being a substitute I don't think you should ever

[00:19:09] be satisfied but I was always a good professional always trained I didn't sulk

[00:19:14] I would kick people don't get me wrong I would kick people because you know

[00:19:18] frustration can come out now and again but I tried to be a good squad player and I got the tag of

[00:19:25] being a super sub in that season which ask any player they don't want to be known as a super

[00:19:30] sub but I was coming off the bench and I was making an impact and I was scoring some goals

[00:19:35] but that was just my frustration you know I didn't want to be a sub I wanted to I wanted to start

[00:19:39] and play so yeah I played my part that season but it wasn't until Stan moved on the following

[00:19:46] season that he went to Liverpool that I really got my break and and running the team so you

[00:19:50] know I tried to take that and I had a really good spell and I did grab that when the opportunity

[00:19:55] came absolutely and obviously with finishing third in the league which is still the joint

[00:20:00] best finish since club is European Cup winners for the club you're in the UEFA

[00:20:05] you defeat Malmo, Oxer, Leon there's a quarterfinal defeat to Bayern Munich on Halibar Run which I know

[00:20:10] is still fondly remembered at the city ground I mean is there ever a moment for you where

[00:20:15] you're lining up against Bayern Munich that you pinch yourself and go wow it was only a few years

[00:20:20] ago I was at Sintour Bank like that is incredible kind of rise isn't it yeah I mean it was the

[00:20:25] other games really before then I mean you know Oaxer you know you got Lauren Blanc you know

[00:20:30] when played for Manchester United, captain France, has Torebo West who played for Derby County and

[00:20:35] there were some really good players along the way and we really acquitted ourselves you know we was

[00:20:40] the last English team left in Europe that season but they're all the other sides very

[00:20:44] in mind we've only just been promoted and you know kind of trying to re-establish

[00:20:48] herself as a as a Premier League side so we performed really well the games were really

[00:20:53] tight there wasn't really many opportunities to score goals low scoring games until we got

[00:21:00] to the quarterfinals where we met Bayern Munich and I played every game that I was fit the games

[00:21:05] I didn't play in Europe I mean I think I started six the games I didn't play I was injured and that

[00:21:10] was only Leon I believe at home where I was out injured for that live out a month really

[00:21:16] and so I really couldn't expect to go back into the team and the Bayern Munich game I didn't

[00:21:21] start the away leg which was the first leg and we got beat 2-1 Steve Kettlescord which gave us

[00:21:27] slim hope really of bringing him back to the city ground and maybe you know returning that but

[00:21:32] you know we got spanked at home against Bayern Munich I think it was 5-1 I was on the bench that

[00:21:37] day on the bench for both games but I got on in the second leg got an assist for Steve Stone to

[00:21:42] score but you know they had Klinsman I don't know if it was Papin but they had some incredible

[00:21:48] players by Munich and they they was obviously more experienced at that level so it it

[00:21:53] ran away from us but we was very proud of what we did and we still have get-togethers and the unions

[00:21:59] and you know we celebrate the fact that you know it's been a long time since what was played in Europe

[00:22:03] and for them to to get third place in the Premier League would be a fantastic achievement. Yeah

[00:22:09] absolutely you know I'd a newly promoted side as well even even more impressive

[00:22:13] the 95-96 season is also the most prolific for you in a forest shirt obviously the transfer

[00:22:19] of Stan to Liverpool offers more opportunities you take your chance in the autumn of 1995 you

[00:22:25] actually score six goals in seven Premier League games almost all of them are either decisible

[00:22:29] points winning goals as well including a brace against Man City again that kind of for fans

[00:22:36] you know we know and understand from even from the amateur game like sort of feeling a run of

[00:22:42] confidence a run of goals you know you're in the Premier League scoring six goals in seven

[00:22:46] Premier League games are you just going out there just when you had going I'm going to score today is

[00:22:51] that confidence just through the roof what is psychologically happening when you're in a hot

[00:22:56] run of form like that? I think once you start scoring you do believe in yourself and that confidence

[00:23:00] will come so you know my career I've always managed to score goals I've never been a

[00:23:05] prolific goal scorer and the reason being is you know like myself and Stan although we may

[00:23:10] well be the same size we play the game in a different way you know I'm a number nine

[00:23:13] or an old school number nine who would be quite selfless in the way I'd play I would invariably

[00:23:18] have to go and go back for a lot of set pieces and go back with centre halves and that'd probably

[00:23:22] take turns so I'd be going back with you know each and every other along throw-ins and free kicks

[00:23:27] and corners and that would impact my impact my game anyway in terms of you know you want to

[00:23:32] be at the top end and you only want to be attacking but I was never selfish and managers

[00:23:37] and coaches always believed that I could do a job defensively to support the team so I had

[00:23:42] my moments you know when I was younger I would score loads of goals you know when you're

[00:23:47] free of responsibility you know Sunday league or grass-roots youth team yeah I just would go out

[00:23:53] and enjoy the game and I wouldn't have these responsibilities but when you're playing first

[00:23:58] team football you have roles to play in the team and my role was always to be a good team player

[00:24:05] help the team out defensively hold the ball up contribute to goals if and when I could

[00:24:10] and just play my role so for me yeah that run and we was quite forward thinking in the way we played

[00:24:16] as well we'd play over number 10 or we played with five in midfield and one striker so

[00:24:21] Stan was very good at doing that on his own when he played up there when I played up there my

[00:24:24] role would have been to retain the ball and bring other players into the you know into play

[00:24:29] like Brian Moore, Lars Bohine and Steve Stoney and Warren you know just have people making

[00:24:35] runs beyond you you know third man runs so your role is really to retain the ball and look after

[00:24:40] the ball and if you can get to the byline and get crosses in that would have been one of my strengths

[00:24:46] you know heading the ball was one of my strengths so if we could get up the pitch

[00:24:49] and get into the final third and deliver good balls into the box I'd have a opportunity to

[00:24:54] go and score a goal so the runner games came my first goal that season would have been

[00:24:59] Everton at home that set me off really you know man in a match performance I think we won

[00:25:04] three one that day and then I was able to build momentum and in a man city game where I got two

[00:25:09] two at home you just feel like you know while you're informed the team trust you a little bit

[00:25:14] more you're prepared to take more chances and more risks because that can be the thing of

[00:25:18] the striker sometimes is when you're not informed you're not prepared to take shots and and

[00:25:22] take chances all strikers miss but you know it's about being ready for the next one so

[00:25:28] no I had that one um six in seven not many people know that or realise that you know at any level

[00:25:34] that's good but in the Premier League to do that you know then it was it was a bit of a I think it

[00:25:38] was a record for for a long period of time it was myself and Mark Steen was playing at Chelsea

[00:25:43] I think he did the same he might have got 166 something like that it's only now that you

[00:25:47] got the the phenomenons in in in Erlen Harland and another such like where these these players

[00:25:53] can literally go on serious runs and score a lot of goals so no I'm really proud of that

[00:25:58] absolutely absolutely and I mean it is around the same time you find yourself in the crosshairs

[00:26:04] of a Bedeal and Skinner fancy football league sketch um it's something that they both now

[00:26:09] acknowledge was racist and bullying in its nature it's broadcast to a late night tv

[00:26:14] audience of football fans now this is the night is so it's not a trending topic on twitter

[00:26:18] it's not something you can put into youtube but it kind of has this kind of fan base of football

[00:26:23] fans when did you first become aware that that was going on as soon as I started watching

[00:26:29] a program like most footballers especially then we watched a lot of match of the day

[00:26:33] football focus there was less uh football programs to watch so something like

[00:26:39] his football league which used to come on on a Friday evening prime time really I think 9pm

[00:26:44] uh BBC2 it had a large audience so you know like most people if I wasn't watching the people

[00:26:50] would tell me to watch it so it wasn't like I was going to get away from from watching what was

[00:26:55] what's happening on the program and I think I was brought to their attention first and foremost

[00:26:59] because of my hairstyle my unique hairstyle and the fact that I was playing in the Premier League

[00:27:04] then it became very sinister and the fact that you know you're you're really calling

[00:27:09] someone on a regular basis I wasn't the only player that they did that to but then you want

[00:27:13] to compound the fact that you're black-facing and it was a different period then where humor banter

[00:27:20] a lot of it was accepted by a lot of people you know there wasn't anything I could really do

[00:27:25] to intervene if you spoke out about it people would say you're being soft get on with it

[00:27:30] you know what's the problem haven't you got a sense of humor so I kind of grew up in an

[00:27:34] environment where you couldn't really talk about anything like that anyway so I just

[00:27:38] wanted to work through it do the best I can but you know I accept that if it wasn't for the fact

[00:27:44] that I was playing Premier League football that I wouldn't have been on their radar and it you know

[00:27:48] it did take a long time for for the deal especially to admit that yeah they overstepped the mark you

[00:27:54] know thanks again has also accepted that but it's not just those are whole BBC to account

[00:28:00] I hold you know the organisation I do a lot of work around ED and I talking to people about

[00:28:06] what they can do in terms of creating a culture inclusive environment and you know you'd like

[00:28:11] to think these things are not going to be accepted in today's society we know things

[00:28:16] still continue to happen but it was just it was just a period of time that that we were

[00:28:21] kind of brought up in where a lot of TV programs and a lot of humor and a lot of over racism

[00:28:27] was allowed to flourish really so yeah I think that's where that's where that period came from

[00:28:32] but for me it was about working my way through it and trying to come out the other side

[00:28:37] and as you mentioned I mean you've very recently come face to face with David Badeal for your own

[00:28:42] podcast the absolutely podcast I mean it's an absolutely intriguing episode it's really really

[00:28:48] powerful obviously and you I mean you don't let him off the hook in any way in terms of just

[00:28:52] holding to account for that and nor should you what was that like for you I guess having

[00:28:57] that conversation coming face to face with him and what impacts did it have on your life

[00:29:02] it's a good word right absolutely because you even use that word when you're describing it

[00:29:07] yeah I mean the conversation had to be had because lots of people were talking about at

[00:29:12] the sketch and you know for the past 25 years and I'd always get roped into this conversation

[00:29:17] but I wasn't on social media it's only been the last few years that I've joined social

[00:29:21] media I've done a lot of work trying to defend players you know and speaking to social

[00:29:26] media companies about this stuff the online harms bill that we're waiting to hear you know

[00:29:30] that's going to get released imminently and we want to know where they're going to go with

[00:29:33] protecting people with online abuse but the conversation was long overdue and I made the

[00:29:38] point that it could have contacted me they could have contacted me at any stage you know

[00:29:42] people write to me people get in touch with me I just feel that we got to this stage because

[00:29:47] it was inevitable that for anybody to continue especially Badeal who wants to talk about anti

[00:29:52] Semitism you know he's out there talking about me culturally from from his own perspective

[00:29:58] you want people to listen and you want people to have a better understanding so he explains that

[00:30:02] he has a better understanding and generally that's the way it works is when one somebody's been

[00:30:07] subject to some sort of abuse they then have more empathy and they can understand you know

[00:30:12] how maybe somebody else felt and I think once it started happening to him being a football fan

[00:30:17] being Jewish going to games listening to certain chants they started to resonate and he thought

[00:30:24] hold on a minute this is not very comfortable it's not very nice so yeah we had that we had

[00:30:29] a grown-up conversation it had to be had to be said face to face it wasn't about doing it online

[00:30:36] and then other people speak and people can take away from that conversation whatever they want

[00:30:40] really it was for me it was a learning piece people keep talking about education and learning

[00:30:45] the reason I did the podcast is to to afford people and give them an opportunity to speak

[00:30:49] and share their stories and I do a lot of restorative work with people anyway so if people make

[00:30:53] mistakes and they're genuine and they want to come back from it then you've got to show them

[00:30:57] and work with them and give them the tools and the understanding for them to be able to do that

[00:31:01] so you know fair play to David he was brave enough to come on and sit in front of me if

[00:31:06] that conversation would have took place 10 years before or 20 years before I'm not sure I would

[00:31:11] have been in in a right frame right headspace to be able to sit down and listen to what you had to say

[00:31:16] so you know we evolve and we move and we move forward yeah it's a it is a fascinating conversation

[00:31:23] and yeah the way that you put across I think the impact that that had is is really well worth

[00:31:29] listening to I'll put the link to that episode in there in the description for this I think

[00:31:35] the other thing about it was as well that it was the the bullying element as well which you do

[00:31:39] cover which was unfairly singling you out as well as missing chances we've already covered

[00:31:43] you're in the hottest streak of your career your game actually is more than about just goals

[00:31:50] you've then spoken about how you probably felt a bit frustrated that maybe because then your form

[00:31:56] dipped a little as it does for any player the manager maybe took you out of the spotlight

[00:32:01] you maybe felt that that was part of it I mean is that something that you you look back on

[00:32:07] there when think you know perhaps if you'd have had a indifferent run of form after that hot streak

[00:32:13] had all that not been happening things would have been slightly different I don't think I was

[00:32:16] ever going to outrun the charm and the momentum it built you know I've never been able to outrun

[00:32:22] that charm you know to this day I still deal with the microaggression of the back of people

[00:32:27] meet me and there's people who don't even know where the where the charm evolved from

[00:32:32] where it stemmed from you know we'll sing it so I'll never outrun that but I think when you're

[00:32:37] playing as I said the manager the manager Frank Clark he was brilliant to me he's got responsibility

[00:32:42] to the team in the club so he's going to pick players who are in form and he wants to win

[00:32:46] games at football so I understand that and also as I said there was nothing in place in terms

[00:32:50] of what do we do to support somebody who's maybe going through this you know there are more

[00:32:55] and more people pastoral care at football clubs you've got you know well-being officers

[00:33:01] and people you know psychologists people they're doing the work they wasn't doing that in my time

[00:33:07] so he had a responsibility to the club and my form you know did dip if I was scoring every week

[00:33:12] and continued to score he's not gonna leave me out the side is he so I had a period so for me

[00:33:17] kicking my heels not being able to play certainly didn't help me but I can understand from his

[00:33:23] perspective you know why he would pick the best players available for the team but I had to

[00:33:29] find a way to come through it hence I had to go out and learn I went out on loan to Greensby

[00:33:33] scored some goals when I learned to child on my first club scored some goals so it's a rebuild

[00:33:38] you know once I leave for us and I go to Watford I know we've come in touch on that in a bit

[00:33:45] it's a rebuild I have to show people that you know it's not going to define me I'm still a

[00:33:50] young person I still want to have a career I'm not going to let a TV show and one individual

[00:33:56] ruin my life I have to find a way you know I've got mouse feed I still still got ambition

[00:34:02] for me it was just about moving forward showing resilience whether it was that or anything else

[00:34:06] it was always going to be something when you're playing sport or if you're a public figure

[00:34:10] there's always going to be somebody who's going to want to critique you and they're

[00:34:14] going to want to ridicule you and they're going to want to make it difficult for you

[00:34:17] so I've always been able to deal with whatever's thrown thrown my way you know

[00:34:22] resilience is something that you have to build up I think if you're going to be a footballer

[00:34:26] but same token is I do a lot of work with people and some people maybe shouldn't have to endure that

[00:34:34] so that's why I talk about my my situations for some people they shouldn't have to endure that

[00:34:38] why are we testing people's resilience to see if they're able to you know to come through

[00:34:45] certain scenarios you know it's just not fair so we'll talk about you know equality diversity

[00:34:51] and inclusive how inclusive can we be it's about doing a lot of work with a lot of people to give

[00:34:56] them a little bit better understanding so there's no no misunderstandings especially in the workplace

[00:35:02] and people always forget like football is a great it's a great career great job you know you get

[00:35:07] well paid and it's only ever but it's still a job and you're still going to work so I'm always

[00:35:11] really frustrated when people leave their jobs come watch football but they leave their behaviors

[00:35:17] from work behind they turn up into a football environment and stadium and it's like anything goes

[00:35:23] they the things that are leaving their mouth the things they say wow you you realize you couldn't

[00:35:28] do that and you wouldn't be able to get away with that in your workplace and yet you turn up to

[00:35:32] to a football event a social event and you expect people to just just put up with it so

[00:35:38] it's once you break it down you explain that to people the the amount of people I've done work

[00:35:42] with once I've had these conversations from there like I've got a better understanding and

[00:35:47] I didn't really see it that way because generally you come to football you think well I've paid my

[00:35:51] money so therefore I should be able to do and say whatever I want well actually that's not the case

[00:35:56] you still got to be respectful and you've got to behave yourself and there are laws in place

[00:36:01] and people need to adhere to that yeah yeah absolutely very true and yeah you see it

[00:36:05] so often don't you at football now in in all HD and I think I think as well the thing is that

[00:36:10] you really were part of that first generation of footballers that actually so many footballers

[00:36:16] became household names so quickly after they kind of launched the Premier League didn't they and I

[00:36:19] think the football probably just wasn't equipped to deal with that in probably the way that it's

[00:36:25] still always catching up but the support networks in football now are probably so much better for

[00:36:30] young players because all of this is going on you're a 23 24 year old man aren't you you

[00:36:34] know you are still a young player yeah 100% and yeah I developed the tools you know over the years but

[00:36:44] I had to learn from my experiences as I said when I was playing Sunday League football and

[00:36:47] grassroots football and there's still trouble at grassroots football but if you can't get

[00:36:52] it right in a pro game of course you're gonna have problems in the grassroots right because they

[00:36:57] image in it and they and they replicate what they're watching anyway but when I was coming up

[00:37:01] playing grassroots football you can imagine there was a lot of discriminatory behaviour especially

[00:37:06] racism and some games wouldn't even get you know wouldn't even finish that's just the the reality I

[00:37:12] used to play in Hackney Marshes back in the day very famous area in East London 100 pitches every

[00:37:19] Sunday I'm telling you there was fights on whatever pitch it may be and sometimes those

[00:37:23] fights would spill onto your pitch so even if you wanted to continue your game you couldn't

[00:37:27] continue your game but yeah it's a societal issue we know that but what we have to do is

[00:37:32] I explain to people that football is still no different from from your working environment so

[00:37:37] it's not truly any different and let's not expect players to have to put up with stuff that

[00:37:43] you wouldn't expect you know people you were and you've got nearest and dearest people look at

[00:37:47] this way you've got you've got your children your children play you know what if your son

[00:37:52] or your daughters are professional are you going to be happy with them receiving abuse

[00:37:55] you're going to have to look at it a little bit differently and it's probably when

[00:37:58] you do have children or if they're involved that you do start to think okay

[00:38:02] yeah maybe I have to behave accordingly and change my way really. You mentioned that

[00:38:08] obviously your the loan spells that you have away from Forrest eventually that that time comes

[00:38:15] to an end at the City Grail with a permanent transfer to Watford you mentioned rebuilding

[00:38:19] your career you're going to work for Graham Taylor at that point as well actually another

[00:38:25] another person in football who really had to rebuild his career and his reputation actually

[00:38:31] from the spotlight as I as I make that connection I mean what was Graham Taylor like

[00:38:35] to work for and with and what was that spell at Watford like? Brilliant it was perfect it was

[00:38:40] what I needed I spoke to Graham again Graham's history with that Lincoln and a lot of people

[00:38:46] talk so he knew about me anyway in terms of you know the Midlands and he followed my career

[00:38:52] and had some good opportunities you know when I left when I left Forrest you know whatever people

[00:38:57] might think of me I've never struggled to get a club it was only until I was 30 I got to age 30

[00:39:03] that I started to get free transfers I was always bought and sold so you know there's always

[00:39:08] always been interest whether you're fighting relegation or trying to attain promotion teams

[00:39:14] teams always looked at somebody like myself and felt that I could I could help them so with

[00:39:18] Watford and Graham going back in as manager he's you know iconic figure he was hugely successful

[00:39:24] there in his first spell as manager he was I think director of football then he took over

[00:39:29] the reins again he was rebuilding the team I was his first signing I knew that obviously

[00:39:34] spell as England manager we know what the public really called out he had to deal with again

[00:39:39] so one of our early conversations would have been about the fact that we've both

[00:39:43] had to endure you know public ridicule and how do we deal with that and what are we going to do so

[00:39:49] he was he was great for me you know he explained to me the project I was leaving the Premier League

[00:39:55] to drop down to League one that got relegated from the championship he wanted to bounce back

[00:40:00] he was building a team you know myself he had young gifton old Williams who was at the club 17

[00:40:06] year old striker who I mentored and still continue to support and help today and he was

[00:40:12] bringing in Ronnie Rosenthal from Spurs so that was going to be front three you know I had experience

[00:40:19] playing at a high level Ronnie did and then we had this this young player in in Gifton old Williams

[00:40:24] so very forward thinking in the way he set the team up three three up top myself being the

[00:40:30] furthest man forward he played with wing backs played three defenders he played Tommy

[00:40:37] Mooney was a striker as a left-sided centre half which was crazy nobody could get their head

[00:40:41] round it but it worked really well we had a really dynamic wing back in Peter Kennedy you know top

[00:40:48] scored that season so he was getting up and down but we had goals everywhere within the team so when

[00:40:53] he's telling me about the project and you know I felt I felt really good that he wanted he wanted

[00:40:58] me to be part of that and he wanted me to help rebuild the team and rebuild the club I mean he

[00:41:03] explained yeah I wasn't coming there to sit on my Lord I was coming there to to play

[00:41:08] to play a part in the history of Watford so you know I look back on it with fond memories he was great

[00:41:13] I take a lot from Graham um it was extremely demanding you know when I coached and I managed

[00:41:20] I can remember some of you take good and bad things from a lot of coaching managers but

[00:41:23] his enthusiasm his attention to detail are certainly some of the things that I was able to implement

[00:41:29] when I was working with people because he left no stone unturned in terms of analyzing

[00:41:34] footage and video footage and we had all the data before data were data driven now we're overly

[00:41:42] we're looking at all the analytical stuff from the data but he was data driven even then he was

[00:41:47] ahead of the curve you know we had all our stats and our details up regularly on a Monday

[00:41:51] whatever it be so if your stats if you weren't hitting certain they're always

[00:41:55] going to cover in certain distances that would pretty much could tell any conversation you wanted

[00:41:59] to open the manager so if you want to complain about this any other let's go and have a look

[00:42:02] at the stats you know your assists your distance covered and you can kind of see and I went for a

[00:42:09] spell at Watford where I wasn't scoring and he he stuck with me because all of my stats and my

[00:42:15] data was actually very good apart from scoring you know my assists was there I was covering the

[00:42:20] distance as I said I did I always had that defensive duty and I was a positive influence on

[00:42:26] the team especially working with with Ronnie who was you know Ronnie would literally do what

[00:42:31] he wanted when he played always played with a free spirit and then young gifting I would have to

[00:42:35] kind of help gifting he's still learning his trade so he certainly appreciated what I could

[00:42:40] offer the side and I certainly appreciated what Graham did for me and you know I look back at

[00:42:45] that spell with Watford very fondly we won the league at the end of the day so when you win

[00:42:49] something not many not many players win things we all start the season with good intention

[00:42:56] but yeah not many teams can go out and be a champion so to be a champion and win the league

[00:43:01] and to help that team bounce back you know and then back to back promotions back into the Premier

[00:43:06] League Watford you know fantastic well done. In the decade that follows your time at Watford

[00:43:15] you represent Chesterfield Northampton and Boston your three most successful spells at least from

[00:43:19] a goalscoring point of view are Peter Brinott's county and north of the border at Falkirk as well

[00:43:24] what are your memories of those spells moving around the move to Scotland as well what was

[00:43:30] how did how did all that come about? So Peter Brinott is Barry Fry again so I played for him

[00:43:34] that self-film when I was a young player and then I played for him as a as a 30 year old Peter

[00:43:39] Brinott he was enduring a bad spell he'd been there maybe a year or two he took over a club

[00:43:44] bought the club for a pound you know you you inherit and you take on the debts so when

[00:43:48] people say you bought a football club for a pound yeah it's more to it than that

[00:43:52] he's been well documented that he remorges his house you know he's a legend at the club now

[00:43:57] he saved the club you know but it was it was Marmite in in those days and I think he's always

[00:44:03] been perceived to be a Marmite but for me I had a very good and still have a very good person

[00:44:08] relationship with Barry Fry so he's not a coach he's a motivator so he scouted networks

[00:44:15] excellent he rang me on New Year's Day or just before New Year's I've been injured

[00:44:19] at Chesterfield recovering from a cartilage operation I had many many meniscus operations

[00:44:24] as you do over the years and I wasn't fully fit and he said that I desperately needed to come

[00:44:29] and help me out Peter bro I said oh well I'm not I'm not 100% fit I'm one weeks away really

[00:44:34] to be honest he said that I just need you in and around the club in a change room you know

[00:44:38] we've got some good young players we just need good leaders and I think there was third

[00:44:43] third bottom when I arrived on New Year's Day so I went in a team I wasn't fully fit

[00:44:48] but straight away I was able to make an influence I played up top with a guy called Andy Clark who

[00:44:51] was at Wimbledon who played Premier League football we struck up a really good relationship I scored

[00:44:56] in one of my first few games in a local derby against Northampton that always helps you you

[00:45:01] know bedding with a new set of fans and then I did contribute and I scored some goals

[00:45:06] and we flew up the table you know and we got into the playoffs and we wasn't favourites

[00:45:10] to go up and we beat Darlington in the final at Wembley so great season you know tick

[00:45:16] tick tick you know promotion careers moving again you have to take these chances sometimes so

[00:45:22] I left Chesterfield it was band a league above to go to Peterborough to help them get back into

[00:45:27] that league so these are the things you have to you have to back yourself um did three years of

[00:45:32] Peterborough half of my time now I was plagued with injury in terms of of my knee I ruptured

[00:45:37] my patella tendon which is a career ending injury same one as the Brazilian Ronaldo who did it

[00:45:42] twice I was told I'd never play again you know it was um it was traumatic experience um but I was

[00:45:49] I was dealing with tell attending eyes for a quite a period of time and I was just managing it so

[00:45:54] when I rupt my patella I thought okay well maybe my career is is going to be Cattell that the age

[00:46:00] of 30 so I started to re-educate myself went back to college university did my coaching qualifications

[00:46:07] I've now got an eye on something else I'm thinking about what am I going to do which is

[00:46:10] what I do now anyway when I'm working with young players I'm telling them you need to prepare for the

[00:46:14] eventually when your career ends so half of my time at Peterborough I was injured came to

[00:46:19] me in my contract free transfer for the first time in my in my career I'm scratching around really

[00:46:25] for the first time because I've been out I've been out a long period of time you know with

[00:46:29] injury I did come back and play some games and score some goals but people knew that I'd

[00:46:33] been out for a year plus I'm the age of 30 age isn't kicks in not sure what you can do

[00:46:38] somebody offers I was getting I can understand why clubs were offering me you know reduced wages or

[00:46:43] dependent on my appearances and this and the other I can understand that but my perspective

[00:46:48] and my responsibility to my family is to get the best deal I can get and a little bit of security so

[00:46:53] when the fall could come in the Brian Rice was the assistant who's a former forest player

[00:46:57] there's always a connection somewhere he knew about me he asked me would I be interested

[00:47:03] coming up the road to Scotland and I thought wow really Scotland I'm not sure about that

[00:47:07] I'd heard some horror stories but I have to say my spell for Fall Kirk and it was only one season

[00:47:14] I signed a two-year contract but I did one season I've thoroughly enjoyed it you know

[00:47:18] played the game scored some goals the people of Scotland were fantastic with me just what I

[00:47:23] needed at that time you know kind of proved to a lot of people that I'm still fit and I'm

[00:47:27] still I'm okay and I've over overcome my injuries so I did this season we was able to come to

[00:47:32] an agreement where I did enough to do the second year and I came back back to England Boston Scottish

[00:47:37] manager in Steve Evans he knew what I was about signed for Boston continued playing games and scoring

[00:47:43] goals and you can see you know that I'm back and I'm up and running so I do eventually land at

[00:47:49] Knox County which I should have signed for Knox County a few times but ages them again it's

[00:47:55] 30 plus we don't really want to sign a player with no resale value and I speak to a lot of

[00:48:01] young players about this now they're gonna have to deal with this so you feel like you're having to

[00:48:05] prove to clubs that I've still got a lot to offer I would I would average 40 games a season

[00:48:11] the only the only reason I wouldn't play would be if I was injured or suspended

[00:48:15] invariably if I was at a club a club would if I was on the books at a club they would

[00:48:20] really want to play me because I would have that influence and if I wasn't playing I wouldn't

[00:48:25] stay there I would I would move on hence that's why I played for a lot of clubs

[00:48:29] I was never going to be the person to sit and just you know pick up my wages and

[00:48:33] you train for a reason you want to play games at a weekend so Knox County was phenomenal for me

[00:48:38] I signed for Knox County at 35 I signed a two-year contract which is unheard of you know

[00:48:42] they only wanted to give me a year I said well I want to it's on my doorsteps I live in

[00:48:47] Nottingham I'm gonna want to do the city proud I feel like I'm an adopted person from

[00:48:51] Nottingham my children grow up here I would already got a two-year offer at all the shot so

[00:48:57] you need to match that it wasn't about the money it was about just having the belief in me in the

[00:49:02] same way I believe in myself and Steve Thompson's the manager somebody I mentioned earlier a former

[00:49:07] teammate former manager he knew he could trust me so I went in near his club captain team captain

[00:49:13] played the games scored goals you know got two of the three awards

[00:49:17] player the season fans it was just what I needed you know and I played I had a long career

[00:49:22] in that plane to us 38 played well played to us 41 I played in league to us 38 that's that's not the

[00:49:28] norm that's not the norm so always maintain I looked after myself physically and always had

[00:49:32] the motivation without the motivation to keep pushing yourself you're not really going to be

[00:49:37] able to play especially when you start dropping down at EATS because people do want to they

[00:49:41] want to test you especially if they know you've played at a high level and rightly so

[00:49:45] as you mentioned there I mean for a player who you thought your career may have ended

[00:49:48] at 30 to play into your 40s at Boston which is where you transition then into a couple of seasons

[00:49:54] in the dugout and you mentioned that you have been coaching for 10 years as well how was that

[00:49:58] transition was there ever that temptation to be a managerial career along the term you need

[00:50:04] opportunity again I could see how I transitioned I was coaching I was coaching before I went back

[00:50:11] to Boston as player coach you know I was coaching at Knox County I literally had three

[00:50:15] track suits in my car three work outfits at one stage I was coaching at Knox County

[00:50:21] I was coaching at Forest I had my own soccer school so I was always changing my I was busier

[00:50:25] than ever you know playing football was easy when I was just playing and getting home you know

[00:50:30] early afternoons but now I'm in the real world um and I'm having to juggle three jobs and then

[00:50:36] Boston asked me to come back as as player coach player head coach alongside to in the first

[00:50:42] season alongside Lee Canneville we did it join to start with and then I took on the

[00:50:47] the reins on my own the following season but I was already coaching so you have to be prepared

[00:50:53] to apply and test yourself I worked with all age groups really enjoyed it being in a dugout

[00:50:58] felt natural to me you know always felt that I was a leader anyway in terms of being a captain

[00:51:02] being a strong one strong role model in a club environment so it was an easy easy adjustment

[00:51:10] like most coaches and managers you end up getting the sack at some stage which I did

[00:51:14] which I'm not bitter about but I'm still not happy about because when I look back

[00:51:18] when I look back at it you always want to look back and think well did they need to do that well

[00:51:23] it was November we was in 10th place with 1 7 drawn 7 lost 7 so yeah that's inconsistent

[00:51:31] but also you never know second half of the season you could turn it around but they felt that

[00:51:35] I'd not been able to move the team forward and we've been inconsistent so they decided that

[00:51:41] that we was going to part company you know you always get that mutual one

[00:51:44] but as a coach and a manager I just realized then that it's going to be difficult to be a

[00:51:48] coach and a manager because you rely upon so many things it's out of your hands you can prepare

[00:51:53] the team in the best way possible and then you can get to the game and a defender could

[00:51:58] fall over make a mistake in the first 30 seconds and you're gold down you know and being

[00:52:03] player manager is not it's not ideal I signed I signed strikers I signed players who I hoped

[00:52:09] go and play a lot of them was injured maybe it wasn't up to me I ended up having to play

[00:52:15] which is crazy didn't really want to do that in my first season as player manager

[00:52:21] so yeah it's just not easy and I also realized that you have to do I speak and I work with

[00:52:26] a lot of coaches and managers you have to have other irons in the fire because

[00:52:30] you could be out of work more than you are in work as a coach and manager

[00:52:35] you get six months to a year if you're lucky so you know what you're going to do with the rest

[00:52:39] of your time you have to be able to go into something else so I was always able to ensure

[00:52:44] administration and governance is something that I enjoy and hence that's why I work for the

[00:52:48] you know for the PFA and I've been working with them for the last 10 years

[00:52:52] yeah and that career path that you're now on I mean that's clearly something that you're

[00:52:59] your passion really comes through you talk about it a lot in your podcast as well

[00:53:03] and it really does seem like a superbly suited role for you and what do you think as well your

[00:53:10] career experiences took you down that path is that something that or do you think it's a path

[00:53:15] you would have perhaps found whatever had happened in your career I think your your life

[00:53:19] experiences and your career experiences are going to obviously shape you know where you end up

[00:53:25] and it's you know for me to stay in football is a bonus you know for me to work in an EDI space

[00:53:31] is certainly something I think I can help others with with my life experiences but more importantly

[00:53:37] I continue to do the work myself so I'm learning all the time so I never take anything for granted

[00:53:42] because when we do we stop evolving and times have changed so you know without being ages

[00:53:47] and I speak to a lot of people especially around my age we need to continue to do the work we

[00:53:52] need to keep up to speed with different terminology you know what young people are talking about now

[00:53:58] because we become out of touch and a lot of people will will say well back in my day

[00:54:04] well we're not backing your day anymore unfortunately you know I've got children

[00:54:09] I'm always learning and listening you want to know what's going on you don't want to be that

[00:54:13] person so when I work with coaches and managers who all have a similar age or whatever

[00:54:17] I just want them to remain and to be you know don't become out of touch because that's when you

[00:54:23] become a little bit yeah you you become not only out of touch but you're then going to be struggling

[00:54:29] really to work with with younger people and you don't really want to be I mean great for

[00:54:34] somebody like Roy Hodgson you know working into his 70s I know he's just just left

[00:54:41] Crystal Palace but he's enthusiasm for the game unbelievable and we shouldn't be putting people

[00:54:48] out to pass it because they're getting to a certain age but he continues to you know do the work he

[00:54:54] always turned up every day his enthusiasm was there he was able to relate and work with young

[00:54:58] people that's that's a real that's a real plus I think a lot of people should look at scenarios

[00:55:03] like that and think great if you want to enjoy your life enjoy your working you can have

[00:55:09] and lots of organizations are but a lot more need to continue to have EDI training cultural awareness

[00:55:16] whatever it may be just do the work with your staff from a top-down approach and give people the

[00:55:21] tools they need to prevent any of these you know inaccuracies these stereotypes and some of the

[00:55:27] issues you might have to deal with you know for grievance and this and yeah a lot a lot of

[00:55:31] a lot of situations a lot of things that happen can be avoided and a lot of the excuse

[00:55:35] from people is ignorance and saying that well I didn't understand that no one told me so

[00:55:40] I think we should try and alleviate those excuses by doing as much work as possible with people

[00:55:46] and just giving them the tools to be able to to flourish and create an inclusive you know environment

[00:55:52] absolutely it's always always evolving as well and I think that's the other thing only last

[00:55:56] night I was talking to a friend who's also a female sports broadcaster who's dealing with

[00:56:03] an awful lot of stuff there's been a great deal of furor and so on on social media

[00:56:09] especially about the women's game and women's broadcasters I know you're a huge advocate of

[00:56:14] both the women's game and female broadcasters why is that so important to you?

[00:56:18] Allyship is important so when I talk to David Badeau about being an ally for the Jewish community

[00:56:23] you know I can do that I'm prepared to take myself out of my comfort zone

[00:56:28] you know I'm prepared to be an ally for the female pundit or female coaches or

[00:56:33] you know women in sport because they need that the same way I need allyship I need a white man

[00:56:38] to stick up for a black man you know for somebody who's gay I'm non-gay but I will still go and

[00:56:43] stick up for somebody who's gay this is this is what allyship's all about okay it's very easy

[00:56:48] to just you know stay in your lane and keep a low profile but the women's game as moved on

[00:56:54] you know I sit on the FA women's board again that's me doing extra work you know seven years

[00:56:59] I've sat on that board reason being I want to see the women's game move forward you know it's made

[00:57:05] great strides off the back of obviously the lioness is being hugely successful but there's

[00:57:09] still a lot of work to do and there is a lot of sexism in football you know football isn't

[00:57:14] just for men but you know a lot of men assume and have these beliefs that women shouldn't be

[00:57:21] involved in the game you know I certainly don't agree with that and I'll have these these counter

[00:57:26] arguments with lots of lots of men you know I have these conversations I mean lots of WhatsApp

[00:57:30] groups with friends I have a lot of professional bases where sometimes these these you know misogyny

[00:57:38] and and sexism it comes out and it will take somebody it will take a man to say that I'm

[00:57:43] uncomfortable or I'm not okay with that maybe for another man to listen and say okay

[00:57:48] that's interesting you know I'm hearing it from from a different perspective so I just think we

[00:57:53] talk about being inclusive the women's game is a fantastic game we know it's a different game from

[00:57:58] the men's game the same rules applies they that a different speed and we know the physicality

[00:58:04] but it's not about critiquing it's just about enjoying the women's game for what it is

[00:58:08] and technically they're extremely proficient very professional you know I've coached women

[00:58:13] I've worked with with young ladies and young girls in schools and they're very keen and they do the work

[00:58:19] and you know I've got daughters and if you've got a daughter or if you've got a young child who wants

[00:58:23] to go and play football come on we need this environment to be a really good environment

[00:58:28] you want to encourage them to go and play off the back of the lioness it's more and more women

[00:58:31] young girls are buying football shirts and they go into games and it's a completely different

[00:58:36] environment when you go to a women's match it's a positive environment you know you're able

[00:58:40] to walk there you take you take your children you're not going to hear these fanaties go to a men's

[00:58:46] game you know you have to be guarded you got to be vigilant it could it can go off at any moment

[00:58:51] but we accept that we accept that at a men's game you still want to take your children you

[00:58:56] still want to take women your wives daughters or whatever maybe but you're more conscious and

[00:59:01] more wary of something might be said or something might happen well clearly we've got

[00:59:06] a lot of work to do still and we have we talk about that yeah I took my 10 year old daughter at

[00:59:11] the time to Bramble Lane for the lioness's semi-final against Sweden and as you say completely different

[00:59:17] atmosphere incredible she doesn't actually have a huge interest in the men's game there's always

[00:59:22] plenty of men's football and you know but actually because it was women's football she was really

[00:59:26] keen on it but one of the things that really struck me is that when the national anthems

[00:59:29] were about to begin there was a guy who went to boo the Swedish national anthem realized

[00:59:34] that nobody else in the stand was joining in and then just immediately stopped and it was nice to be

[00:59:39] that way round yeah yeah you can just feel it it's completely different so I'm glad you went to that

[00:59:45] game I went to I went to all the lioness's games and I went to some of the other teams

[00:59:50] Bramble Lane I went to and the atmosphere was fantastic it was just it was really nice

[00:59:56] to see lots of people get behind and come out and obviously we mentioned at the top of the

[01:00:00] show you're still very irregular down at the city ground doing your ambustorial work

[01:00:05] how are you feeling about the season at the moment obviously as at the time of us recording this it

[01:00:10] might be not go out for a few more weeks but at the time of recording Forest Star outside and

[01:00:16] the bottom three new nose come in had quite an impact what do you think the prospects are

[01:00:22] and obviously there's a lot going on with FFP and deductions for various teams and forest

[01:00:26] things kind of been mentioned in that and so on I mean how concerned are you or do you think that

[01:00:32] actually you know this is another real sustained spell for the top flight football for Forest

[01:00:37] I am concerned I don't think I can be confident I don't think anybody should be confident because

[01:00:42] that would that would be a problem I think if you think you're okay especially in this league

[01:00:47] in this level you can become a crop come a cropper so it feels very similar to last season

[01:00:52] except for the first season back in the Premier League you can imagine the enthusiasm the atmosphere

[01:00:58] with you know we bounce back and we're backing it's taken you know 20 odd years to get back there

[01:01:03] staying in the league is the hardest thing so I think with three games remaining last season

[01:01:08] Forest secured their you know their safety in the Premier League I'm hoping it doesn't go that

[01:01:12] to that stage again this season but it feels very similar new nose managed to win three games

[01:01:18] you won two when he first came in then went for a spell where lost games and just won a game recently

[01:01:23] beating Westam you got to build momentum Forest need to win back-to-back games to start chipping

[01:01:28] away and also the worry of FFP and a points deduction yeah that's hanging over that's not

[01:01:35] something that Forest can afford Forest certainly can't afford to be dropping any points at any

[01:01:41] stage so it's gonna be really interesting to see how that works out but you know new nose

[01:01:45] come in and done a done a good job you know he'll be judged on the end of the season really if he can

[01:01:50] keep winning games and keep the team in the league but I think the ambition has gone up at

[01:01:56] the club because second season you want to see progress everyone always talks about progress

[01:02:00] you know they want to see themselves climb and maybe be mid-table as opposed to fighting

[01:02:05] relegation that will give people a little bit more peace and confidence but you know I'm studying

[01:02:12] um

[01:02:13] director sports to my sports directorship in terms of being director of football and doing

[01:02:17] stuff in and around that clubs invariably end up with what they spend you know you know clubs who

[01:02:23] don't spend as much end up in the bottom tier of the Premier League so it's like that for a reason

[01:02:29] clubs have built up years and years of finances Forest are new to the Premier League

[01:02:36] yes they spent some money in the first in the first season especially in the first window

[01:02:40] everyone was going crazy about it 22 new players came into the club it was unheard of but that had

[01:02:45] to that had to happen so you know they have slowed down in the windows I think 10 players went out in

[01:02:50] this window and some you know players go out players come in you just need to be you need

[01:02:55] to be bringing in better quality of players as you stay in the Premier League but then with

[01:03:00] the better quality of players the better contracts there's that concern that you you

[01:03:04] know what happens if you do drop out to Premier League you're left with these players or

[01:03:08] you can't move on so financial fair play he's there for a reason and everyone needs to adhere to it

[01:03:14] everyone knows what the rules are I just don't know how the powers be you're going to look at that

[01:03:19] you know you still got Man City that's still ongoing and then as I said you've got other

[01:03:25] clubs you've got Everton dealing with it they may well get deducted some more points

[01:03:29] and they're and they're fighting it as well so you know Sean's done a really good job down

[01:03:34] at Everton I think he's built that siege mentality but Luton you know they've got a

[01:03:39] really good fighting spirit they're not over it I think Burnley are struggling

[01:03:43] I think if they don't change which they won't change Vincent has been very stubborn and this is

[01:03:47] the way he wants to play I think the way he wants to play will take them back down

[01:03:52] it's whether they give him the opportunity to come back up and yeah I think ourselves

[01:03:56] in Everton you know we've still got to be looking over our shoulders we've got a lot of work

[01:03:59] to do Luton showing a fighting spirit I think Sheffield United are struggling you know I think

[01:04:04] Sheffield United and Burnley will go and it'll just be down to the other three or four teams

[01:04:09] above them to try and you know secure their safety so I think it's going to go to the wire

[01:04:14] well Jason Lee you're a hero in the red of forest making 63 Premier League appearances

[01:04:18] and scoring 12 goals system five you had a professional career of more than 600 games

[01:04:23] scoring over 100 goals for anyone who's not watching you are sat in a room I can see one

[01:04:28] or two frame shirts and medals behind you we've probably covered quite a few of them but what are

[01:04:32] the highlights for you looking back on your career being a pro in the first incident when I meet scholars

[01:04:39] first thing I say to scholars because I consider them to be pros you know once you sign a scholarship

[01:04:43] at 16 as I said I made my debut at 17 Owens done it Wayne Rooney's done it lots of young

[01:04:48] players you're in the building congratulations well done because young people go into academies

[01:04:53] at six I mentioned that earlier for them to stay in the system until they're 16 what an achievement

[01:04:59] that is probably at 10 years already in the system so you're then trying to you know get contracts

[01:05:04] and be a pro your judge every couple of years you need to get another contract another contract

[01:05:09] it's a difficult difficult environment to stay in so I always look back on that and think

[01:05:14] getting a pro contract getting my scholarship getting a pro contract making my debut playing

[01:05:18] for so many teams being bought being sold for promotions you know winning something with a group

[01:05:25] of players is what you hold your whole dear you know so mementos it took me I've only had these shirts

[01:05:31] up the last few years you know it's taken forever I don't know why but I suppose when you're playing

[01:05:36] you don't really think about it but you know I thought I would need to get these shirts up

[01:05:39] and I need people to see and I need to share it with people and I should be proud of my career

[01:05:44] and I am proud but it's not something that you kind of flaunt are you talking so lots of the

[01:05:49] things we spoke about in the in the cup run I've got those shirts from the from the forest

[01:05:54] European Cup run I've got those shirts as well they're just little reminders really and you

[01:05:59] know people come to the house and they say never they see it their last questions we'll

[01:06:03] have conversations and I do podcasts and people ask about shirts and no it's good to do

[01:06:08] we worked hard it wasn't easy lots of ups and downs but I look back on my career and

[01:06:14] you know I'm really proud of of what I did and what I achieved so I'm happy fantastic absolutely

[01:06:20] superb and you mentioned your podcast work let's just what's what you got coming up on that is

[01:06:24] it's great well you've plugged it really well without realizing you keep saying yet the

[01:06:28] word absolutely and what a great word it is because it's an absolutely great podcast no we

[01:06:35] did season one that's finished and you know we got nominated for a few awards which is really

[01:06:41] fantastic because you know we're up against some really big hitters established organizations

[01:06:46] and yeah we're thinking about season two really if anyone's listening you know certainly need

[01:06:51] sponsorship we need you know these these podcasts I don't know how you fund yours but we

[01:06:55] was doing as in the studio and um yeah we need sponsorship we need funding yeah we want to do

[01:07:01] season two we want it to be really good and we want it to be the best it can but you've seen

[01:07:06] there are a lot of podcasts out there and a lot of people have got some some huge financial backing

[01:07:10] so to compete with that is is not easy but I just enjoy the space I'm sure you do having the

[01:07:16] opportunity to speak to people some great people listen to their stories and giving them the

[01:07:20] opportunity to share what it is and especially if something's topical so now it's good stuff

[01:07:25] Carl so I've really enjoyed speaking with you today um good luck with your continued podcast

[01:07:32] I know it can be difficult but no thank you I really appreciate you bringing me on

[01:07:37] thank you Jason been an absolute pleasure talking to you thank you very much Jason Lee

[01:07:44] so that was Jason Lee what a lovely lovely guy I really really enjoyed my chat with Jason

[01:07:52] he is such a gentle soul he is so I think compassionate around the things that have

[01:07:59] gone on for him and how he doesn't want that to happen to anybody else but there's also still I think

[01:08:04] that that passion and that fury and that rage that actually is still burning under there that

[01:08:09] actually he went through such injustices I think at a time when he was still developing

[01:08:14] as a person as a player and if you listen to one episode the absolutely podcast it has

[01:08:21] to be the David Badeal episode he's forensic in the way that he holds Badeal to account

[01:08:27] for what he and Frank Skinner did to him back in the midnight is it's a fascinating listen and I

[01:08:33] would really really recommend it as ever all of the links you need for today's show are in

[01:08:39] the description including how to leave a review all of the social media channels if you want to

[01:08:44] support the show via buy me a coffee dot com the link is found in that description as well

[01:08:50] that is it for this week's show at next week's show I have the broadcaster the journalist the

[01:08:58] author Jim White on the show a huge Manchester United fan himself we talk about that quite a bit

[01:09:04] he's written some fantastic books including A History of the Premier League in 10 matches

[01:09:09] we talk about that in quite a lot of depth as well it is a brilliant book if you enjoy

[01:09:14] this podcast I would highly recommend you go out and find that book as well we break all of that

[01:09:19] down he's a fantastic guest he picks his deserted island matches and that is coming up next week

[01:09:27] until then though thank you so much for listening to the show as ever I really really

[01:09:32] appreciate your support thank you for sharing it I'll be back next week with Jim White

[01:09:37] deserted island matches I'll see you then