Journalist Jim White's Desert Island Matches

[00:00:00] First goes in from sharing him I think oh shit. Oh well, it doesn't matter. I've got extra time

[00:00:06] I'll be able to oh bloody else old school just about I'm kind of sitting there with my eyes shut thinking

[00:00:11] I've got about two minutes to rewrite this what am I gonna say?

[00:00:15] What I hadn't noticed was the pissed-up bloke in the

[00:00:20] spotted that he was right by the press box and he came down the steps

[00:00:25] punching the laptops of each

[00:00:29] journalist in turn going and what are your bastards gonna write now?

[00:00:34] So I haven't noticed it. I didn't see him coming suddenly my laptop spinning to the ground with a great big crack across it

[00:00:42] Hello and welcome to when football began again

[00:00:45] The podcast that takes a look at the Premier League era through rose-tinted spectacles and tries to remember the good times we shared

[00:00:54] Today's show is deserted island matches special with author

[00:00:58] broadcaster and journalist Jim White. Jim shares his

[00:01:03] matches that he would take to a desert island with him with a bit of a Manchester United theme

[00:01:07] Also games that he has worked over the years that is coming up very shortly

[00:01:14] Before then though, thank you to everybody joining the show after our episode with Jason Lee last week a

[00:01:20] fascinating conversation with Jason

[00:01:22] I really enjoyed speaking to him

[00:01:24] What a lovely lovely guy who really went through the mill in the 90s with what he was put through

[00:01:30] To be perfectly honest with you and I think he articulates that so well

[00:01:34] If you haven't listened that yet, please do make sure you go back and have a listen to that episode

[00:01:39] It is a fascinating journey that he went on as a professional footballer

[00:01:45] But on to today's show with Jim now this was recorded actually at the back end of last season

[00:01:51] I have sat on this one a little bit longer than his idea

[00:01:53] I do apologize about that

[00:01:55] There was a slightly elongated break that I wasn't quite planning for over the winter months. However

[00:02:01] Most of it still really really stands up. I mean first things first. He's a Manchester United fan

[00:02:07] We recorded this just before Manchester City had won the treble

[00:02:10] So that is referenced that actually at the time of recording Manchester United

[00:02:14] Were the only sides who have done the treble

[00:02:17] He does make some predictions around Eric Tenhark being the man

[00:02:21] For Manchester United long term. I think the jury's still out on that

[00:02:24] But he also makes some really really good kind of observations around what needed to happen with Manchester United's ownership

[00:02:31] And I think that that is probably beginning to happen as well

[00:02:36] He's great value a really great guest. I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoyed chatting to him

[00:02:40] So here we go. This is deserted island matches with Jim white

[00:02:47] Oh

[00:02:50] Joining me today to discuss his deserted island matches is author columnist for the telegraph and broadcaster Jim white

[00:02:58] Jim, thank you so much for joining me. How are you?

[00:03:01] I'm very well, Carl. I'm really delighted to be doing this. I've enjoyed I've been well

[00:03:06] I've got to say I've enjoyed the preparations

[00:03:09] You may not enjoy what I have to say but I have really enjoyed the preparations great format. Love it

[00:03:14] Well, I'm really pleased to get you on and I'm a huge fan of your work

[00:03:17] And we're going to cover a little bit of that as we as we go along before we get onto your deserted island picks

[00:03:23] You're a Manchester United fan. So what are your earliest memories of Manchester United and how did they become the team for you?

[00:03:30] Well, uh, God, I notice you I've got video so there's no disguising how old I am

[00:03:37] about this but

[00:03:39] basically

[00:03:40] My first memories of playing football were in the playground at school in

[00:03:46] South Manchester. I actually come from Altingham, which any mancunian will tell you is the posh part

[00:03:51] I can only apologize for that

[00:03:54] And I remember play in the playground

[00:03:58] In in 1968 playing football and you had the choice of the european champions or the league champions

[00:04:06] City will league champions united were the european champions. Obviously I went for the glory boy, obviously

[00:04:12] um

[00:04:12] and Dennis Law's celebration holding his shirt cuff was a big thing in the playground

[00:04:20] And you know it it went from there and

[00:04:24] I think my mom fancied george best because she was always asking me about george best

[00:04:30] What we're doing and and I don't know I don't know if you know but george best built this kind of goldfish bowl house

[00:04:38] in in the suburbs in bramble

[00:04:40] And uh, we were actually

[00:04:42] You know he moaned and groaned about people turning up to look at it

[00:04:46] We were one of the families that turned up to have a look at george best's house

[00:04:50] We drove over there my dad parked outside and we looked at george best house. He wasn't there

[00:04:55] I think he only slept there about five nights because he was fed up of people parking outside looking in through the windows

[00:05:01] The thing was when I was getting a bit older my dad used to take me to watch altering him

[00:05:06] uh, we used to go every game and um

[00:05:10] When I was getting older obviously going to school and stuff people were saying you know united or city and go and watch united or city

[00:05:17] but it was my mom and dad were quite nervous about it because it was the start of

[00:05:23] kind of intense football hooliganism

[00:05:26] And I remember I went to my mom's not around anymore. So I can say this on on on the record

[00:05:33] Uh, I actually lied to my mom about where I was going the first time I went to united

[00:05:38] I told her I told her I was going out round to a friend's house and we actually went to

[00:05:43] Old trafford and watched united against sundaland. So that was that was your first game, right? Yeah

[00:05:47] And yeah, as we're going to cover during this conversation today

[00:05:51] The the the way that football changed as we got into that modern era in terms of just feeling safe actually

[00:05:57] Children young people families being able to go to the matches. Yes indeed although

[00:06:02] I have to say cal and one of the reasons I was so intoxicated by it was the sense of menace

[00:06:09] I remember standing on the corner of the strefford and it was a place called the

[00:06:14] Strefford paddock and just watching the fans rolling down. I wasn't brave enough to go in amongst them

[00:06:19] Obviously, I was only about 12

[00:06:21] But watching them rolling down the terrace and chanting at the rivals and so on and and it was that

[00:06:28] Part of the fan culture that I really got into obviously

[00:06:31] I wasn't a hooligan in any sense

[00:06:35] But I enjoyed the kind of peripheral of it before we start with you to set down in pick

[00:06:39] There's so much I want to cover with you today. Let's start by looking at the beginnings of your career as a football writer

[00:06:46] How did you get started? When did you know that this was going to be the career for you?

[00:06:51] Oh, I always wanted to be uh a journalist when I was um

[00:06:57] In my teens there was a guy called tony wilson famous for factory records

[00:07:01] Who was the presenter of the local news and he was my absolute hero and

[00:07:06] When I was in the sixth form at school, I was running the sixth form society and I got tony wilson to come in and address us

[00:07:13] Um, and I badgered him about how I got on tv and all that kind of thing. That's what I wanted to be

[00:07:19] I wanted to be tony wilson clearly didn't have any of his talent

[00:07:23] but

[00:07:24] His interests were exactly mine

[00:07:26] So it was pop music and football and any way in which you could cover those

[00:07:30] Uh was what I wanted to do and went to university and spent my entire time

[00:07:35] writing

[00:07:37] stuff

[00:07:38] working for the

[00:07:39] university newspaper

[00:07:41] And so and I've been sports editor of the school newspaper as well

[00:07:46] So that was a kind of hint as to where I was going. There was never any doubt in my mind

[00:07:50] That that's what I was going to do where I was going to go but of course

[00:07:54] You've got to be lucky you've got to be bloody lucky

[00:07:57] Um, and I met the right people and got in

[00:08:00] And I worked on a local paper in southland and I got a job straight from university there

[00:08:05] Got my qualifications got me n uj all those kind of things that you needed in those days

[00:08:11] And then got lucky because the guy I was um

[00:08:15] Working under got a job at the independent

[00:08:19] Um, and he got me in at the independent when it first started

[00:08:23] So I was there when the independent launched in 86

[00:08:27] Uh, again giving a bit about my age there

[00:08:31] And I look I was there at the uh, I was at the at the launch in 86 and the editor andress written smith was a fantastic guy who basically encouraged

[00:08:40] young talent to

[00:08:42] Do whatever they wanted and what I wanted to do was right about football. So

[00:08:46] I managed to do that. Um, and it was great. It was it was it was an education and

[00:08:52] And brilliant. I remember my first game first game may have a covered

[00:08:55] Uh as a reporter

[00:08:58] Was qpr against chelsea

[00:09:00] Uh, I can't remember the year but it was in the 80s anyway

[00:09:04] Um, and I remember sitting next to the bloke from the news of the world and just being in awe

[00:09:09] Of him on the phone because in those days you had to go to copy takers and and and he was extemporizing

[00:09:16] He hadn't written anything down. He was just making it up and he'd obviously been told

[00:09:21] You've got 800 words or whatever and he could somehow

[00:09:25] know in his mind

[00:09:27] Exactly what 800 words were I just sort of I then I suddenly realized oh shit. I've got to write something now as well

[00:09:35] Well, it's time for the first match of your deserted island picks

[00:09:39] Now this is a premier league game you take with you featuring Manchester United. What match have you gone for?

[00:09:45] Well, February the 12th 2011

[00:09:49] Uh and it's united against city and I went with my sons. I got on tickets to old trafford

[00:09:54] So the three of us went and we were all in the uh the strepford end

[00:09:59] watching it and

[00:10:01] 2011 was

[00:10:03] When city were what ferguson called alex ferguson called the noisy neighbors. They've been bought by

[00:10:11] um

[00:10:13] shakeman saw money was being put in

[00:10:16] Uh, but in a in a way they hadn't got the plan together yet. You know, they hadn't really got got it together

[00:10:22] But they were a threat in a way. They haven't been so

[00:10:26] When I was growing up

[00:10:28] city and united were equal when I was a kid and then united just went into ascendance and city

[00:10:34] Were were you know, you never even thought about them and suddenly they were there they were

[00:10:41] Breathing down united's neck and the big thing was they they they bought carlos tevez from united carlos tevez

[00:10:48] Who had won the champions league with the united in 2008?

[00:10:52] um went across

[00:10:54] to city who infuriated ferguson by

[00:10:59] Putting a picture of him up in the center of town saying welcome to manchester

[00:11:03] um and

[00:11:05] It was you're beginning to think these guys are serious. This is this is important and it was a tense game

[00:11:11] And my my sons were let's think

[00:11:14] Uh, there were teenagers maybe maybe my younger son may not even have been a teenager

[00:11:19] So they were still enthralled and excited and it was a tense game

[00:11:24] And then nanny got the ball

[00:11:27] crossed and wane really did that

[00:11:29] unbelievable

[00:11:31] overhead bicycle kick hammered it into the corner and we just let the three of us hugging each other

[00:11:37] So it was a it was an emotional moment. He did that fantastic

[00:11:41] goal celebration that kind of arrogant look at me goal celebration

[00:11:46] Standing in front of the city fans and and it was it was a great moment

[00:11:50] Probably about the last one that I was celebrated for

[00:11:52] Over cities, I mean that that period of wane runes career

[00:11:57] I mean when you actually go back and watch him

[00:12:00] As a teenager still when he joins man united and he's he's just uh, he's got that bullish energy

[00:12:05] But he's still so sharp and still paced and then by this point by the time it gets to this much that we're talking about here

[00:12:11] He he's around the peak player, isn't he?

[00:12:15] I seem to remember that being

[00:12:17] Almost the the peak of his powers. I think you're right. I he'd had a very disappointing world cup in 2010 in south africa

[00:12:24] If you remember he was prone to injury

[00:12:28] He's also his lifestyle, you know, he was a contemporary of ronaldo whose

[00:12:33] Lifestyle was all about

[00:12:36] You know looking at himself in the mirror and seeing how how many how many muscles he had on his six pack these days

[00:12:42] Uh, whereas rune, you know would go to seed in the in the summer

[00:12:47] He'd come back to stone overweight after his holidays and that kind of thing

[00:12:51] But he had such guile such game intelligence

[00:12:55] And and he was beginning to rely on that more than anything else

[00:12:59] But what was so magnificent about that goal was it's it had all that athleticism all that power

[00:13:05] That reminded you of that wane rune of 2003 when clive tillsley

[00:13:11] Had that, you know remember the name when he scored against arsonal for everton and then his amazing performance at the

[00:13:17] 2004 euros when you thought he was going to be the greatest player in the world and

[00:13:23] You know, he had issues. He had problems. He had fitness issues and and and

[00:13:29] It was almost yeah, you're right. It was almost the kind of moment of nostalgia for those for those

[00:13:34] wonderful suggestions of his powers

[00:13:37] glimpses of magic all the way through his career

[00:13:39] um

[00:13:40] So it's 10 years since your book premier league a history in 10 matches was published

[00:13:46] Those early seasons are of course defined by the rise of majesty united the brief introduction of blackburn rovers

[00:13:52] And the steady stream of iconic overseas talent that arrived on these shores not least eric cantonar

[00:13:57] And these are all covered in those first few chapters of your book

[00:14:00] Why were manchester united so dominant in those early years of the premier league after quite a barren spell and

[00:14:07] And did blackburn's triumph kind of give the rest of the league that glimmer of hope that you could

[00:14:13] Penetrate this fantastic manchester united team

[00:14:16] Yeah, I think that there's

[00:14:19] One particular reason why united were in the ascendant and that's they had the greatest manager

[00:14:26] In their history at that time and ferguson

[00:14:29] Had taken his time, you know, I wonder whether he would have got to where he did in today's climate. It took him

[00:14:39] Well over hang on

[00:14:41] It took him it took him three and a half seasons to win a trophy

[00:14:47] I very much doubt a manager would get that long now

[00:14:50] Certainly not at manchester united

[00:14:53] But by then he really knew what he was doing. He'd assembled a great side

[00:15:01] He he was he was there and ready

[00:15:04] and the

[00:15:06] management at manchester united

[00:15:08] also

[00:15:10] Were very shrewd at that time in

[00:15:14] exploiting the moment commercially

[00:15:17] That they begin they'd be started this kind of

[00:15:20] rolling

[00:15:22] Commercialization of the game which had infuriated so many people

[00:15:26] Uh, not least amongst the united fans themselves

[00:15:29] But you know fans of other clubs found them a kind of ugly commercial corporate monolith

[00:15:36] And and they did very shrewd things like increasing the capacity at old trafford

[00:15:42] Remorselessly, they bought all the surrounding area

[00:15:45] old trafford was built in

[00:15:47] What was an industrial zone?

[00:15:50] As the industry kind of fell away around it united bought up all the area and so on so

[00:15:56] They could construct stands that could bring in more people and and and it was it became a

[00:16:03] A kind of benevolent cycle for united a vicious cycle for everyone else the more they won the rich they got

[00:16:09] um

[00:16:10] and and in a sense blackburn was a a wonderful

[00:16:15] romantic

[00:16:16] possibility, I mean you look at how much

[00:16:20] Uh jack walker put into blackburn now when it looks poultry, you know

[00:16:26] Nowadays it would barely pay

[00:16:28] for a premier league squad's annual

[00:16:32] Car valeting service, you know, what was it? He spent about

[00:16:37] 250 million but but then it seemed you know, ginormous amounts and and he was very clever as well. He brought in a

[00:16:44] uh a manager who was hungry and kenny dal gleesh who assembled some great players the sutton shearer

[00:16:51] attacking force the problem blackburn had was

[00:16:55] Jack walker was satisfied when he won that title and things began to go off the boil thereafter

[00:17:01] Ferguson was never satisfied

[00:17:03] Ferguson wanted more

[00:17:05] What he did last year was in the history

[00:17:08] What he was interested in was the future and and and that mindset was really significant

[00:17:14] In in in the way that blackburn couldn't kick on a ruthlessness and highly talented manager and that commercial mix as you mentioned

[00:17:22] The perfect kind of the perfect combination

[00:17:24] I think for message united to really really step in and push off the second game for your deserted island is a

[00:17:29] Non premier league Manchester united game you can take with you so it can be a league game before the premier league a cup game

[00:17:35] What have you gone for?

[00:17:37] These are all matches that i've seen uh cal so they've all got us

[00:17:41] I mean seen live. I mean obviously virtually every virtually every united game is on the telly

[00:17:47] um

[00:17:48] But these games i've seen live so i'm gonna go for the f a cup semi final in 1999

[00:17:55] I think that was a really huge game for united because it was against arsenal who were fantastic

[00:18:02] In those days under arson venger. They've been completely revamped

[00:18:07] Uh, he brought in new methodologies

[00:18:10] Ferguson was constantly having to play catch up in his in his approaches and venger brought in such fantastic players

[00:18:17] tiere on re denis burr camp actually

[00:18:21] I'll rewind that bruce re reocke had bought denis burr camp but vengar made him a better player

[00:18:27] Um, and and they were fantastic and this head-to-head rivalry inspired both of them

[00:18:33] Uh, the managers were determined to better the other one all the time and the 99 cup final

[00:18:39] So sorry cup semifinal they met

[00:18:42] um

[00:18:43] And it was a great game a fantastic game ebden flowed

[00:18:47] And I thought it was all over when arsenal got it was I think one all arsenal got a penalty in the in the in the last

[00:18:54] Dying embers of the game denis burr camp step stepped up

[00:18:58] I obviously as you do when the opposition take a penalty put my head in my hands and couldn't believe it when everyone around me was

[00:19:05] leaping up and down because uh schmichael saved it and then in extra time

[00:19:11] Probably the greatest goal i've seen live

[00:19:15] Ryan gigs

[00:19:16] scored it, um just dancing through the uh through the through the

[00:19:22] Arsenal defense and and scored took his shirt off, you know, his hairy chest

[00:19:27] It was it was a great moment a great moment actually

[00:19:30] Actually, I tell you a goal to match it

[00:19:33] Uh was one I saw um in uh the coppadell re final between realm adrid and basalona

[00:19:40] When garith bale scored a goal from the halfway line where he you as

[00:19:44] With your affiliations will remember this one where he basically

[00:19:49] Outpaced the defender, but he also took a kind of diversion almost into the stands to run round

[00:19:56] The guy it was that was an incredible goal

[00:19:59] But I think gigs is just just about it. We can't mention Ryan gigs these days obviously because he's been cancelled, but

[00:20:05] Um, it was great goal

[00:20:07] The other point as well the because I believe as well schmichael had

[00:20:11] Announced his retirement

[00:20:12] So you you knew that you were seeing the final days of peter schmichael in a man United at that time and for him

[00:20:19] To make that save that effectively kept kept the treble alive

[00:20:23] I mean, this is I think sometimes where football just creates the most incredible story lines, isn't it?

[00:20:29] Absolutely. I mean that you know united had

[00:20:34] had developed this kind of

[00:20:37] Uh

[00:20:38] intense

[00:20:39] Resolve that they weren't going to be beaten. I think that came from Ferguson and that season they put it into action

[00:20:45] you know salska scoring the winner in the cup tie against livable old trafford and in in added time

[00:20:53] was a kind of harbinger of what was going to happen in the camp now and and

[00:20:58] That resolved that determination that refusal to die was was there with schmichael, you know

[00:21:04] Not just scoring goals in the last minute, but stopping goals in the last minute

[00:21:09] Incredible and we'll we'll come on to more of those exploits of that team a little bit later

[00:21:14] But coming back to your book and and actually man united's dominance continues throughout the 90s culminating

[00:21:21] In an unprecedented treble at least an unprecedented treble at the time of recording

[00:21:26] Then arsenal and chelsea begin to punctuate their success a little more frequently

[00:21:31] If the early to midnight is was all about overseas players kind of changing the game the latter part of the decade and into the millennium

[00:21:39] There are in particular two overseas coaches who make a real impact in arson vengo and jose marinho

[00:21:44] What did they do to the premier league? What what difference did they make?

[00:21:48] I think they made it the center of the world

[00:21:51] And thus, you know gave it a projection

[00:21:57] around

[00:21:58] The global marinho

[00:22:01] Who it's hard to it's hard to reconcile that that nasty grumpy

[00:22:06] Sodies become

[00:22:08] With how glamorous he was at the time, you know when he first took over at chelsea. Wow, there was this good-looking

[00:22:15] sophisticated brilliant linguist, you know and also a great great tactician

[00:22:21] In charge and what what it became is we weren't just getting the best players

[00:22:25] We were getting the best minds so that

[00:22:28] The the the the tactical battles became much more interesting and so on

[00:22:35] You know

[00:22:36] the premier league is

[00:22:38] britain's

[00:22:40] greatest cultural

[00:22:42] asset

[00:22:43] It's exported around the globe it it gives us a kind of resonance and a power that is

[00:22:50] Almost incalculable

[00:22:52] You know obviously harry potter is pretty big obviously the Beatles were pretty big all those things

[00:22:57] But the premier league is the one now that really gives us meaning around the globe and in a sense

[00:23:04] They were lucky in that in that

[00:23:07] You know it was an english language based product

[00:23:11] So for television it could go around the world because english tends to be everybody's second language if not their first

[00:23:19] Um, but I think it also attracted people who wanted to position themselves within it roman abramovich being the first

[00:23:27] super rich owner to come in

[00:23:29] um

[00:23:29] And you know abramovich brought in marinho because he had the money to do so

[00:23:35] um

[00:23:35] and and you know

[00:23:37] Those early days of the 2000s you were really beginning to see that kind of global power that the premier league

[00:23:45] now is

[00:23:46] And obviously you had um lots of access during your career during his during his career in saralex vergeson

[00:23:53] that actually saralex vergeson took that challenge and uh, he again

[00:23:59] Revitalized his teams didn't he again kind of changed things around and was

[00:24:04] rose back to the top after after a few years where arson and chelsea really came

[00:24:09] Yes, that's right. I mean it the united had obviously the trebel in 99

[00:24:14] And then there was a bit of a dip with with with both arsenal and you know the arsenal invincible's then chelsea didn't win the league for three seasons and then fokerson

[00:24:23] Really regrouped and and built what I think was his finest team

[00:24:28] Which is the one that won the 2008 uh champions league final

[00:24:32] I think that was his best team where he had rinaldo runy tevez up front. He had hargrieves

[00:24:38] Skulls gigs in midfield karak coming through and then

[00:24:43] You know that really defiant defense of vidich and ferdinana and vandesar behind them that that I think that was his

[00:24:52] his greatest moment

[00:24:54] people say his first uh

[00:24:57] Title winning team was pretty good. Obviously the trebel team was pretty good

[00:25:00] But that I think was was the one and and building up to that through through then what fokerson did was

[00:25:07] He he went with the times he

[00:25:09] He he wasn't an old dinosaur in any way

[00:25:14] He bought in what was the best of the new approaches new ways things like diets and and so on

[00:25:22] Always had an eye to innovation

[00:25:25] uh, and I think

[00:25:26] Always made sure that he had at his side a real tactical innovator

[00:25:32] So the last guy had reny mullenstein was a guy who's reading of the game was my

[00:25:38] Fergie's reading of the game was good

[00:25:39] But you know guys who could on the training ground really put ideas into action

[00:25:45] um

[00:25:46] And it's incredible really that he lasted as long as he did at the top

[00:25:51] You know, I mean

[00:25:52] Roy Hodgson's outlasted him in terms of the longevity of his career

[00:25:58] um

[00:25:59] But fokerson was at the top for so long in that time

[00:26:03] That's the remarkable thing and he couldn't do that by standing still

[00:26:07] He couldn't do that by saying my way or the highway

[00:26:10] He could only do it by adapting and looking at jose marini and going thinking i'm gonna have some of that

[00:26:16] I'm gonna get some of that looking at arson feyman saying well, what's he doing right?

[00:26:21] He was a very inquisitive man fokerson and I think that really helped

[00:26:25] So the third map for your deserted island is your favorite premier league game that doesn't involve man United that you'd relive again and again

[00:26:36] Which classic 90 minutes would you go for?

[00:26:39] I've gone for a slightly odd one. I think but

[00:26:43] It was just fantastic to be there. What a game this was brentford three

[00:26:49] Liverpool three in

[00:26:51] September 21

[00:26:53] Liverpool were going to go on that season

[00:26:56] Uh to go for the quadruple, you know, they they were within two games of winning the quadruple

[00:27:02] Don't forget that, you know the last game at the premier league season having won the cup and the league cup

[00:27:07] They were still in there until

[00:27:10] Final minutes and then the champions league so they came very very close and that side

[00:27:16] Was bettered on the day by brentford and what's brilliant about brentford is that they show

[00:27:22] That you don't need a huge financial backer

[00:27:27] To do well in the premier league that what you need is cleverness innovation

[00:27:33] And smart dealing and you'll do it and I think that's what's so great about the premier league. I've seen brentford bizarrely

[00:27:40] That draw that three all draw what a game it was

[00:27:44] Against Liverpool. I've seen them absolutely

[00:27:46] Murder man united 4-0 and i've seen them beat Manchester city

[00:27:50] So on their day as is true of any team in the premier league on their day

[00:27:56] They can match the very best

[00:27:58] Now obviously the competitiveness of the premier league

[00:28:01] You have to put into context that man city have won it by dint of financial doping for the last

[00:28:07] Five of the last six years. So you could say well, why is that different from paris angermeur in uh

[00:28:13] In the french league or or baslain and real madrid or bayamunic

[00:28:18] What what's so different? Why is the premier league competitive because on the day brentford could do that to liable

[00:28:25] And you know brentford a tiny little club. I think i'm right in saying their

[00:28:31] uh annual wage bill is a tenth of man united's

[00:28:35] That shows you the difference and and you know the

[00:28:39] Conventional wisdom is the more you pay in wages the better you do and yet brentford

[00:28:42] Uh, uh kind of completely undermining that theory by playing really clever football

[00:28:49] Really smart great manager brilliant recruitment and and you know it was it that game was just in a sense

[00:28:57] It typified what's so good about the premier league and and brentford aren't the only ones, you know

[00:29:01] Brighton are doing it full of them are doing it. It's it's it's great to see

[00:29:05] Yeah, all of those teams really well run

[00:29:09] And and what does make the premier league special as you say any team can be any team on their day

[00:29:13] so coming back to

[00:29:15] The latter chapters of your book the premier league juggernaut continues into the 2000s the gap between the haves and have not

[00:29:22] Does only seem to widen

[00:29:24] Leeds united the last english champions before that premier league era do briefly

[00:29:28] Flirt with the return to the upper echelons as they reached the lucrative champions league semi finals

[00:29:32] But relegated towards near oblivion a few years later

[00:29:35] Everton briefly interrupt the top four of Manchester United are still chelsea lutherpool that inhabit the champions league

[00:29:41] qualification spots for five years out of six between no three and oh nine

[00:29:45] It does seem that the same four teams are going to dominate the league for years to come

[00:29:49] Then comes that huge investment at Manchester City as you mentioned and a brief interlude of stability at

[00:29:55] Tottenham and suddenly their head-to-head meeting in may

[00:29:58] 2010 provides an alternative cup final of sorts as the two teams attempt to break into the champions league now

[00:30:04] There are conflicting opinions on the champions league format

[00:30:08] But is this a vital new narrative and also a glimmer of hope for the rest of the league during a period when it did seem that

[00:30:15] Four teams are going to dominate the league forever more. It does because of the revenue involved you get in the

[00:30:22] Champions League and you guaranteed

[00:30:24] an additional

[00:30:27] 30 40

[00:30:28] Million just if you get in the group stage never mind if you progress further

[00:30:33] Um, and so that that makes a huge difference and Tottenham were

[00:30:38] You know, they had that flirtation under harry redknapp when they played

[00:30:42] They you know, they had such a great side and then when pochettino came in

[00:30:47] And they had the new stadium the new training ground. They looked as though they got it all right

[00:30:53] um

[00:30:54] It hasn't worked out like that partly partly because they've sacked people at the wrong time employed the wrong people

[00:31:00] that

[00:31:01] Made a real mess of what looked like a very clever

[00:31:05] uh formula, but the real the real difference has been the fact that

[00:31:11] Middle eastern money um, I started to come into the english game and

[00:31:16] The reasons are fairly obvious

[00:31:19] that in order to

[00:31:21] move their economies away from dependency on oil which they realize is going to run out eventually

[00:31:29] What those governments are doing is investing in sport as a

[00:31:34] A way of doing it so in Saudi you see

[00:31:37] Formula one you see boxing you see tennis golf in Saudi as well with the live tour

[00:31:44] And one of the best ways of doing that is to invest in a premier league club because the premier league is

[00:31:50] Is the international brand there's this term sports washing that that goes on with it in the

[00:31:56] That what they're looking to do is kind of

[00:31:58] Put their international reputation into the laundrette of football, but I think it's subtler than that. I think it's about power

[00:32:06] Rather than about reputation. I think they want to be

[00:32:10] International power brokers. That's how they see themselves economically in the future

[00:32:16] And so first city were the ones and initially when city were bought

[00:32:21] It was it was a bit like a kind of I suppose it was a bit like a kind of uh,

[00:32:25] Twitter

[00:32:26] Transfer junkie getting older from it was just oh, we'll buy Rabino. We'll buy this that and the other

[00:32:31] But then they got sensible people in they got the guys from

[00:32:35] Barcelona, they got Guardiola

[00:32:37] and it's been

[00:32:39] Ridiculous the transformation there and now we've got the same at

[00:32:44] Newcastle with Saudi

[00:32:46] Money coming in and again they followed that they followed that city methodology

[00:32:50] So it's not you know supermarket sweep of big-name players

[00:32:54] It's getting a good manager in buying shrewdly and now they've broken into the champions league spots

[00:33:00] And and and I think that is the the way forward and obviously

[00:33:04] Manchester United

[00:33:05] We don't know who they're going to be sold to if they're going to be sold at all

[00:33:08] But one of the potential buyers is Qatar. So you've got the three big

[00:33:14] Gulf states all wanting to get involved in football and all

[00:33:19] Going down the same route and I think that that

[00:33:22] kind of super ownership

[00:33:25] Means that the Premier League has two compartments

[00:33:28] Well, maybe three it has the super ownership at the top and Manchester United Liverpool are slightly different because they've got the

[00:33:35] Fan base to give them the revenue

[00:33:37] Then you've got the clever smart well-run clubs in the kind of marzipan layer and then you've got a kind of

[00:33:44] frantic desperate

[00:33:46] Bunch of clubs trying not to get relegated down the bottom

[00:33:49] And it's kind of made it a three tier system and in a sense, you know, we talked about Blackburn earlier

[00:33:56] They broke into that

[00:33:58] Now to break into it. You can't be a billionaire

[00:34:01] You've got to be a super rich state to get into that that top four now

[00:34:06] Um, I mean, it's just it's just extraordinary

[00:34:11] Liverpool have done it

[00:34:13] By shrewd

[00:34:14] Management at the top and also by having a very very good manager on the pitch

[00:34:19] But but as you say as we talked about

[00:34:22] Manchester United's rise in the early night is and and all of those formulas being correct

[00:34:27] Now there has to be that huge investment

[00:34:29] That has to be one of the ingredients at a level that as you say unless it is one of these

[00:34:35] Super owners doesn't seem that possible. I mean, is that sort of an existential threat for the Premier League's?

[00:34:42] competitive nature

[00:34:44] You see they always say

[00:34:46] Oh, yeah, but Leicester did it. Yeah, but you look at Leicester actually

[00:34:50] Leicester had a lot of money behind them, you know

[00:34:54] The tie owners were really really putting money or went horribly wrong this season when they went down

[00:35:01] They went down

[00:35:03] Having that in in Premier League history

[00:35:06] No club had a bigger wage bill or has spent more money on transfers than Leicester

[00:35:11] So Leicester did it. Yeah, they were shrewd

[00:35:15] Yeah, they took advantage of the fact that several of the top six were going through

[00:35:21] periods of readjustment and they could slip in there

[00:35:25] But don't pretend that they weren't financed

[00:35:27] They were they had money behind them makes for

[00:35:31] Kind of I suppose intriguing and worrying times ahead for the for the Premier League

[00:35:34] Um, so coming back to your match choices the fourth match for you to choose is a European match

[00:35:41] You'd really begin and again. I have a feeling. I know which one

[00:35:45] You're your

[00:35:47] We don't need to leave a long on this one

[00:35:49] But let me tell you about what happened. It's it's uh the camp now

[00:35:53] In 25th of May 1999 Manchin and I playing by music

[00:35:58] I'm working for the Guardian and I've got to do the front page piece

[00:36:03] For the front of the newspaper about it

[00:36:07] And I had I had to deliver my copy on the final whistle

[00:36:12] Okay, and to my side to my left are the corporate hospitality seats and clearly

[00:36:18] There's a lad who's bought a ticket in the middle of it who is

[00:36:22] Out of his head pissed united fan

[00:36:25] Getting angrier and angrier as united

[00:36:28] Look to be losing. I've written my piece. It's the treble is a step too far focus and pick the wrong team

[00:36:36] The trope will never see the treble in my lifetime

[00:36:39] Etc etc then

[00:36:41] Two girls go in in in added time first goes in from sharing him. I think

[00:36:46] Oh, shit. Oh well, it doesn't matter. I've got extra time. I'll be able to oh bloody else old girls good

[00:36:52] Just about I'm kind of sitting there with my eyes shut thinking

[00:36:55] I've got about two minutes to rewrite this. What am I going to say?

[00:36:59] what I hadn't noticed was the pissed up bloke in the um

[00:37:03] Had spotted that he was right by the press box and he came down the steps

[00:37:09] punching

[00:37:10] The laptops of each

[00:37:12] Journalist in turn going oh, what are your bastards gonna write now?

[00:37:16] Ha ha ha

[00:37:18] So I hadn't noticed it. I didn't see him coming suddenly my laptop spinning to the ground with a great big crack across it

[00:37:25] Oh god, so I had to ring up and um, you know do the old thank god i'd sat next to that guy

[00:37:33] Um, uh from the news of the world that it's qpr against jelsey and extemporize on the spot

[00:37:40] Goodness knows what rubbish I gave but anyway, there we go. It went on the front page of the guardian

[00:37:46] Fortunately it was the first fortunately it was the first edition. So probably only went to devon and cormel

[00:37:51] I only I can only apologize to readers in devon and cormel

[00:37:56] I'm absolutely fascinated to know what is going through your mind both professionally and personally because professionally

[00:38:03] You are probably faced with something that really is going to be

[00:38:07] One of the biggest challenges you may be facing your career to turn that around at that time while personally seeing

[00:38:14] The greatest moment in the football team that you've devoted your life to

[00:38:19] History what is going through your mind? Can you even enjoy it?

[00:38:22] Can you enjoy it? It's an interesting thing that I'm in the challenges that moment was was was pretty desperate when my laptop broke

[00:38:30] Because that bloke had punched it. I have to say that was pretty

[00:38:34] desperate

[00:38:35] But I grabbed the phone

[00:38:37] And started talking and and you know the joy and delight

[00:38:41] Became obvious as as I was making my way through it. But

[00:38:45] Yeah, it's

[00:38:46] It's it's an interesting one this because

[00:38:49] The deadlines are such

[00:38:51] When writing about an evening game that you you've got to go on the you know, I was told by my first editor

[00:38:58] that

[00:38:59] that the the principle

[00:39:01] Driving force of a journalist is usable copy on time. There's no point delivering something late

[00:39:08] It's usable copy on time and and you know

[00:39:11] Late evening matches always have that freeson about them, you know

[00:39:16] There's always you've always got to deliver something

[00:39:19] fast and furious

[00:39:22] And the adrenaline takes over in that case. I mean, you know

[00:39:26] All through that season

[00:39:28] It it was like that because there were these last minute turnarounds

[00:39:32] But yeah, that was that was a difficult

[00:39:35] It was a difficult night. It was funny actually because after the game

[00:39:39] Um, I found myself

[00:39:41] Uh, this is about three in the morning. I found myself in the bar

[00:39:46] of uh hotel and i'm chatting with this

[00:39:50] Uh, united fan a woman I know

[00:39:54] Is there uh, she was there with her partner and and we're chatting away

[00:39:57] And I went down to the loo which was downstairs

[00:40:01] And I realized that the united party was taking place there. You know the post match banquet

[00:40:07] Um, so I come back upstairs. I say you never guess what the post much

[00:40:11] Backwick goes there and this woman goes come on then we're going we're going to go to it

[00:40:15] So me and her and her partner

[00:40:18] go into the um into the banquet

[00:40:21] and we just walked straight in and uh

[00:40:26] We're walking around taking it all in and stuff like that

[00:40:29] And I noticed that she when we're going around on the tables

[00:40:34] They've got these um, especially

[00:40:36] Printed menus with Manchester United champions of europe treble winners these lovely

[00:40:41] souvenir menus and she's just picking them up and shoving them down the front of her trousers

[00:40:47] So security has spotted this and quickly realizes we shouldn't be there

[00:40:52] and we get kicked out uh by that

[00:40:55] Strange bloke ned kelly who used to run united security

[00:40:59] And as we go and he says to my friend uh, and madam

[00:41:03] I think you've got something that belongs to Manchester United

[00:41:06] And puts his hand down the front of her trousers

[00:41:09] pull these

[00:41:11] menus out

[00:41:13] But following up we get back upstairs. I said bloody hell that was a bit rough and she goes don't worry

[00:41:18] I put one down the back

[00:41:21] Ha ha ha ha

[00:41:23] That will be in a frame somewhere. I'm sure absolutely. Yeah

[00:41:27] Fantastic coming back to uh your your book

[00:41:31] It ends at the time with Manchester City securing the Premier League title in the most dramatic fashion imaginable

[00:41:37] Before furgy and Manchester United go on to win their 20th title now while your post script in the book does query the potential of power shifts

[00:41:46] I don't think many would have predicted it would be the last Premier League to be lifted at Old Trafford in at least a decade

[00:41:52] As we record this in the week between legs two and three of Manchester City's potential treble

[00:41:58] And at least matching the achievements of furgy's 99 side

[00:42:03] I mean from a professional and personal point of view, what do money united need to do to return to those former glories?

[00:42:11] Oh, it's it's very simple Carl. They they you know the the glazers have got to go. I mean it's

[00:42:19] A body rots from the head and and and they've been rotting Manchester United. They took over in 2005

[00:42:25] uh from this very

[00:42:28] progressive organized

[00:42:30] plc who were developing the club developing the training ground and so on and

[00:42:36] The similarity with the water companies is very interesting if you look at the way the water companies have fared since privatization

[00:42:44] basically

[00:42:45] they've been bought

[00:42:47] using reverse takeovers in the same way that the glazers did lumping debt onto companies by

[00:42:54] American

[00:42:56] hedge funds

[00:42:57] And they've got a captive audience

[00:43:00] Uh, sorry captive market

[00:43:03] Uh, they've got existing infrastructure. You don't invest in the infrastructure and you just take the dividends

[00:43:08] And and and the glazers have been doing that and and that is the reason for decline

[00:43:13] Sure, you know

[00:43:15] When furgy was around he was papering over the cracks

[00:43:19] But once he went, you know, they made some catastrophic decisions one of the worst

[00:43:24] Was to replace david gill as ceo with ed woodwood

[00:43:28] Uh, you know very poor choices of managers

[00:43:32] Um, and they could have got guariola. They could have got clop. They messed up both approaches to both men

[00:43:39] Um, I think they finally got one by the way. I think eric ten hag is the man

[00:43:44] but he can't plan for uh, the

[00:43:47] What's coming?

[00:43:49] In in the transfer market because the glazers have put the club up for sell

[00:43:54] They can't even sell it properly, you know, this kind of dragging of their feet get out

[00:44:00] Let someone in who can run the place properly. We don't need a sugar daddy

[00:44:05] We just need someone who can run the place properly give an eric ten hag

[00:44:09] The the prospects and I think

[00:44:11] United they're the biggest club in in the country

[00:44:15] They've got the biggest fan base

[00:44:18] They've got the income they can match city

[00:44:21] But i've got to do it center. They've got to run the place

[00:44:24] properly like city is run

[00:44:27] um, and then and then they'll match and you know

[00:44:30] People say it'll take five ten years. I'm not sure about that. I think

[00:44:34] I think ten hag could pick it up quicker than that

[00:44:38] And you know if guariola when he finally wins the champions league decides

[00:44:43] Okay, i've done it. I'm gonna move on. I don't want to I don't want to be in charge of you know having to

[00:44:50] rebuild the side

[00:44:52] Um, then I think city will be in difficulty. So

[00:44:56] Well not difficult relative difficulty

[00:44:58] And so I mean the thing about the thing about it is I don't think anybody when I wrote that book could have thought

[00:45:05] that

[00:45:06] The

[00:45:07] Premier League was going to be dominated by Manchester City

[00:45:11] You know even even even when Mancini won the the the league

[00:45:16] They they looked a very good side, but they didn't look the kind of machine like operation they are now

[00:45:24] So much has happened in that 10 years and it's it's it's remarkable actually to

[00:45:28] to

[00:45:29] Read the book where it's left and actually yeah reflect on what's happening that

[00:45:34] Maybe maybe I maybe what you're saying khaliz. You need to write a new bloody version of this

[00:45:40] This needs updating rapidly. I am I am ready for book two, do you mind 100%

[00:45:46] There's probably there's probably been at least another 10 matches for you to

[00:45:50] For you to to well bread for three Liverpool three. It's gotta be one of them

[00:45:56] So the fifth and final match to select for your deserted island is an international match you take with you to watch for over

[00:46:02] What have you gone for? I've got for quite a recent one, uh,

[00:46:05] Carl I've gone for England against Denmark the semi-final of the euros at Wembley

[00:46:10] I was reporting on that and I actually got the feeling during that game

[00:46:15] That England were finally going to do it. There was there was a cohesion about them. There was a

[00:46:21] a tactical

[00:46:23] Plan and there were great players

[00:46:26] And I thought we were going to do it and then of course

[00:46:29] Um, you know, they fell at the final hurdle of the penalty shootout against Italy

[00:46:34] That was an interesting one. I tell you what that was an interesting one

[00:46:38] having to

[00:46:39] Send a piece on the final whistle after penalties because you know, there were two completely different stories

[00:46:46] uh penalty shootout, um, you know

[00:46:50] The the final penalty goes in and it's glory glory glory

[00:46:54] Final penalty is missed as it was by poor old pikaiozaka and it's misery misery misery

[00:46:59] And the only way to do that was actually to write both

[00:47:03] And then press the button on the one that happened

[00:47:06] um, so I spent much of the uh

[00:47:09] Much of the the the added time in that game

[00:47:12] um

[00:47:13] You know writing one version or the other because I knew what was going on and there's quite a

[00:47:19] sizeable gap between final whistle and the starter penalties to do that

[00:47:24] But that semifinal

[00:47:26] England Denmark

[00:47:27] you know

[00:47:28] Particularly as Denmark because of the whole christian ericsson heart attack business

[00:47:33] thought that they were destined to it and the

[00:47:35] The the the

[00:47:37] Momentum was on their side and for england to to beat them

[00:47:41] I really did think how wrong I was. I really did think you know, we're going to be the champions finally

[00:47:48] I'm going to see live england lift the trophy

[00:47:51] Um, and and it was it was great. It was a great. It was a great moment. I've seen some

[00:47:57] miserable england matches by the way

[00:48:00] I

[00:48:01] including

[00:48:02] england algeria in the 2010 world cup a nil nil draw of

[00:48:07] utter misery

[00:48:08] These are the good times that then reward you. I mean the the atmosphere after that game

[00:48:13] They're probably the only two times you would be able to compare it to will be urin 96 and the world cup in 66

[00:48:19] What was the atmosphere like in that stadium at the full-time whistle as all those players were celebrating?

[00:48:26] And the music was playing it must have been incredible to have been in the stadium. It's experience that

[00:48:33] Yes, it was and and remember it was it was sort of we were coming out of cove ed

[00:48:38] So it wasn't they didn't allow the stadiums to be full. I think I think there were about 40 000 in an 80 000 stage stadium

[00:48:46] and then they opted to 60 000 for the uh for the uh

[00:48:50] The final although there was about 120 000 in there, but that's a different story

[00:48:55] Um, but it was a wonderful atmosphere, you know, and there was a kind of togetherness and and what I love

[00:49:01] about what gareth southgate has done for england is that

[00:49:05] I remember in 2016 seeing england lose to iceland and you got the feeling that the the england players couldn't

[00:49:12] They wanted to get out that competition. They couldn't wait that the the shirt was a burden

[00:49:17] They wanted to throw it off and play for their clubs again

[00:49:21] um, whereas

[00:49:22] those lads pickford uh, kane

[00:49:26] greelish um rashford

[00:49:29] those lads

[00:49:30] They they want to play for england. They love it. They love being together. They love the whole

[00:49:35] process and and and that's down to gareth southgate

[00:49:38] He has completely changed

[00:49:41] That that negative culture

[00:49:43] Uh and made it a really really happy and it was happy

[00:49:47] That's what it was and you can't say watching england has brought much happiness in the in the in the past 20 years

[00:49:54] Also, it was just so happy all everyone

[00:49:57] Singing along sweet caroline on the pitch and in the stands. It was great

[00:50:03] Got it. Sorry. Sorry, carl. I've just said singing sweet caroline was great

[00:50:07] I'll take that back despite singing great sweet caroline. It was great

[00:50:12] It will be forever burned into that moment with it

[00:50:16] The um, I'm fascinated by the uh, the process of having to write the two copies

[00:50:21] Does that successful copy or let's say the copy that you don't use does that go into the recycling for every more?

[00:50:27] Is there is there an archive there?

[00:50:30] I suppose it is. I suppose it must be on my computer somewhere but

[00:50:34] Yeah, no, it

[00:50:37] Yes, it goes it goes away ferguson interestingly

[00:50:40] It is alleged and I don't know if this is true or an apocryphal story because some of the uh reporters

[00:50:47] Um had earlier deadlines for the 99

[00:50:51] Uh champions league and the first editions would have had united have lost bloody bloody blood

[00:50:57] And I think it's it is said that ferguson has those copies

[00:51:01] Um as a as a stick to beat the journalists with

[00:51:06] I'm sure I'm sure he does somewhere

[00:51:09] Okay, um, well we've already mentioned your premier league history. Um is a fantastic book and uh, it is still

[00:51:18] It really really stands up as those first 21 years of the premier gearer

[00:51:21] So I'd highly recommend that to to anyone listening

[00:51:25] The another one of your books

[00:51:26] I absolutely love and recommend to anyone who'll listen is your win nothing with kids which charted your

[00:51:31] accidental and at times slightly reluctant journey coaching your sons junior football team all the way through

[00:51:37] To his late teens now there are some wonderful moments in that book where you ask some of football's most iconic managers

[00:51:45] for advice for your team and actually well

[00:51:47] While driving to interviews your own tactics for the weekend the plane on your own mind what pearls of wisdom

[00:51:55] Did you get from some of the football some of football's greatest minds?

[00:51:59] Um the other grassroot coaches might be able to recycle for themselves

[00:52:03] I tell you one that was really really

[00:52:07] interesting and helpful

[00:52:09] And it was Eric Harrison

[00:52:11] Who was the guy behind the class of 92 he was the youth team coach at Manchester United?

[00:52:17] And I met him around the time I was uh

[00:52:20] coaching the boys um, and I said

[00:52:23] What what's it?

[00:52:23] Would you give Eric and he gave me what seemed like the most prosaic tip you could imagine he said

[00:52:31] Do you have lines painted on the pitch that you train on?

[00:52:34] So I said yeah, he said get the kids to stand

[00:52:39] One end two of them stand either end of the line and just kick the ball along the line

[00:52:44] So they learn how to pass straight

[00:52:46] thought

[00:52:47] Really?

[00:52:48] it's

[00:52:49] I did it and but it really really really worked

[00:52:53] The other one was our Senbanger brilliant piece of advice from our Senbanger

[00:52:58] Which is never shout at the boys encourage them

[00:53:02] But never shout at them if you've got a criticism

[00:53:05] Wait until after the game or half time

[00:53:09] To deliver it do not shout it from the touch line and I think for any youth team coach

[00:53:15] um

[00:53:16] That is the the the best piece of advice because

[00:53:21] I've seen it. I've seen it

[00:53:23] Junior matches it gets so fraught, you know you've got

[00:53:27] You've got a mum shouting pass it. You've got granddad saying who fit

[00:53:31] You've got dad shouting dribble it. You've got the coach saying drop back

[00:53:36] The kids standing there going I don't know what to do, you know

[00:53:40] Much much better

[00:53:42] Is just leave it to them to make the decision about what to do if it's the wrong decision

[00:53:47] Tell them afterwards say, you know when you were

[00:53:50] Going down the line, maybe you should have cut inside or maybe you should have passed it inside to

[00:53:55] To the other guy

[00:53:57] I thought that was a really really smart bit of advice, but of course

[00:54:02] When they score cheer encourage them, but don't ever give advice from the touch line verbal advice

[00:54:10] Um when when they're in possession when the opposition is in possession you can say yeah drop out lads

[00:54:17] Yeah defense comes as a line

[00:54:19] But when they're in possession don't confuse them

[00:54:22] Well brilliant advice and as you say, you know simple but but really effective. Yeah fantastic

[00:54:29] And who better to get your tips from than the Narsalanga

[00:54:34] Um so um on your deserted island, we're going to give you the chance of redemption

[00:54:39] We're going to offer you the chance for a current or former Premier League player to rescue you

[00:54:44] However, there is a caveat if the rescue mission fails

[00:54:48] You will be stuck with this player for all eternity with that in mind

[00:54:53] Who who's the player that you would go for?

[00:54:57] It's going to be a night player and it's going to be Eric Cantona and I thought

[00:55:03] It might I I did consider

[00:55:06] Obviously it obviously not Gary Neville because he would just taught you to death. I did consider Roy Keane

[00:55:12] And that's partly because

[00:55:14] um when Roy Keane uh did his

[00:55:17] Autobiography uh that that he wrote recently

[00:55:22] Um they asked me if I would share a couple of live events

[00:55:26] And we did one at old Trafford cricket ground in the corporate hospitality suite there 800 people turned up

[00:55:32] and Roddy Doyle, uh who who actually did the writing and me and Roy um

[00:55:39] Did a show for these people anyway in the green room beforehand

[00:55:43] Someone comes around and says what would you like to drink and I said

[00:55:46] I'll have a diet coke, please and Keane goes fucking diet coke fuck off

[00:55:51] I went oh, sorry Roy. He goes. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It just reminds me anyone old as a diet coke

[00:55:57] It just reminds me and he told me this story about when he was at united in his early days

[00:56:03] At the end of the season he used to go home to cork and have a real bender go on a right old 24 hour binge

[00:56:11] and uh, he was on one and it was about

[00:56:16] Six in the morning five in the morning and it was his round in the pub

[00:56:19] And there's a whole load of people there. Some of you some were old mates

[00:56:23] Some were just hangers on about 20 people. All right. What do you want a part Guinness?

[00:56:29] Double scotch bloody bloody by points at this bloke and he goes. What do you want diet coke, please?

[00:56:34] and Keane goes

[00:56:36] Why you've had about

[00:56:38] 20 pints. What are you talking about a diet coke? He goes

[00:56:42] I've got to go to work in an hour and I need soap Rob and Keane goes

[00:56:48] You've had 20 but diet coke is not a magic bullet. It's not going to so be you up

[00:56:52] Don't be ridiculous

[00:56:54] and he says

[00:56:56] You know, you

[00:56:58] You're not going to get sober anyway. What do you do for a job? And the bloke says I drive the school bus

[00:57:03] I

[00:57:06] The key said every time he saw

[00:57:08] Every time anyone asked him a product or he heard someone asking for that cake it reminded me of that moment

[00:57:14] And it made me realize Roy Keane is such good company. He's so funny

[00:57:19] He is he is, you know, he's just really funny. So he'd be great

[00:57:23] But um, um, obviously I've got to go for cancer because you know

[00:57:28] He's godlike presence. He'd rescue me. He'd create something to get me out

[00:57:33] Yeah, I think that's fair. He certainly has that aura about it

[00:57:36] But it's it's good to know that Roy Keane

[00:57:38] Uh, is as good value behind the scenes as he appears to all of us watching at home

[00:57:42] Now on this podcast we do try and reflect that the Premier League has been

[00:57:46] Deviced if there are perhaps as many people who say it's ruined football as

[00:57:51] Revolutionized it and we've touched on one or two of the things that have happened particularly over the last decade

[00:57:55] Or so since your book was published

[00:57:57] Where do you stand on the positives and the negatives of the Premier League after 30 plus years?

[00:58:04] I think the positives are in the product, uh, you know, the stadiums are magnificent

[00:58:09] Yeah, it's much more comfortable to watch

[00:58:12] Mind you, that's probably just an expression of aging but um, uh, the pitches are brilliant

[00:58:18] The players are great. They're fitter. They're they're sharper. They're faster. I think the product is is

[00:58:24] Undeniably great and better than it ever was

[00:58:29] I think there are issues. I think, um

[00:58:33] I fear a kind of

[00:58:35] This sounds like the old romantic but I do fear a kind of detachment

[00:58:40] from

[00:58:42] The roots of the game and by that I mean

[00:58:45] I think that

[00:58:47] Football clubs are huge cultural assets within their communities

[00:58:52] and you know, sure city have come in and and and built wonderful

[00:58:59] new

[00:59:00] Training grounds and they're building a a fantastic

[00:59:04] Indoor arena and all those kind of things

[00:59:07] And committed to the community

[00:59:10] But what I mean by that is I don't think that

[00:59:14] When it comes to it, I don't think that

[00:59:17] John Henry at Liverpool or Joel Glazer at Manchester United or Todd Burley at

[00:59:24] Chelsea really cares a damn about the rest of the football pyramid in England

[00:59:29] They're just interested in in in the projection of their club around the world and I think that has a really

[00:59:35] devastating knock-on effect

[00:59:38] The other the other thing that I find

[00:59:41] slightly dispiriting about it

[00:59:43] Is the manner in which clubs in the championship

[00:59:47] Instead of enjoying the championship. It's just the desperation to get up and they

[00:59:54] They they sometimes bust themselves in the process of of trying to get up trying to you know reach the holy grail

[01:00:02] I think it's distorted

[01:00:04] The competition down below that said, you know, attendances are going up everywhere

[01:00:10] We've just had the national league's highest ever

[01:00:14] Attendances the fifth tier of English football gets higher attendances than anywhere else in the world, you know

[01:00:22] The Spanish fifth tier is attended by a man and a dog

[01:00:26] We were getting 10 000 at rexson this season 12 000 at knots county, you know quite remarkable

[01:00:35] And that's all the way through league two has got bigger attendances than ever league one so

[01:00:40] Maybe people

[01:00:42] Having been priced out of the Premier League watch it on the telly and then go around the corner

[01:00:46] And that's not a bad thing. Is it?

[01:00:49] Yeah, so football pyramid may have some of that trickle down

[01:00:54] Effective of the ever growing expense it is to watch Premier League football

[01:00:58] Yeah, I mean it it is not cheap. I mean it is ludicrously expensive

[01:01:06] Um, you know, what do I loot nor do that being I'm kind of looking forward to looting because they are a sort of

[01:01:13] antidote to the Premier League, you know, they've got a stadium that is held together by sellotape

[01:01:19] Uh, only seats 10 000

[01:01:21] Um, you know, it'd be really interesting to see how they fare. I hope they don't get

[01:01:27] Spat out straight away. I hope they managed to cling on for a couple of seasons. That'd be great

[01:01:33] And so we're going to give you the chance to strike a game from the Premier League records

[01:01:39] You can put a game in room 101 forever more. Which game would you choose?

[01:01:44] I think you know what I'm going to say

[01:01:49] 5th of March 2023, uh, Anfield can't remember the score, but it was pretty unpleasant

[01:01:57] Seven bloody nil to Liverpool. Yes. That's got to go

[01:02:01] Yeah, yeah, I'll never forget that because it was my dad's birthday

[01:02:04] And we were sat in a restaurant and checked my phone and saw the scores

[01:02:06] I didn't actually watch it live but an astonishing match. So that's that's that's gone. That's gone

[01:02:11] Thank you

[01:02:14] Okay

[01:02:15] And finally we're going to give you a football to take with you to deserted island and give you the opportunity to recreate a Premier League goal forever more

[01:02:24] Which one would you attempt?

[01:02:27] Sadly, I can't do the Rooney one because you need someone to cross it. Don't you

[01:02:33] And and and and you know, I haven't asked I suppose Eric Hansen I could do it but um

[01:02:38] He's gonna rescue me. He's not gonna be left on the island and I'm certainly don't want nanny with me to cross it

[01:02:44] It's also a Rooney goal, but it was a free kick which you can practice

[01:02:48] And it was 2017 when he was right in the twilight of his career game against stoke last second

[01:02:55] of probably is I think it may well have been his last game for united and uh, you know, it's we're losing and um

[01:03:03] That shows that that that tells you something doesn't it?

[01:03:05] I've finally I did have so losing to stoke and really took a free kick and bent into the far corner

[01:03:12] 250th goal for Manchester United overtook Bobby Charlton with it

[01:03:16] And a brilliant free kick. So i'm going for that one fantastic. Well, uh, Jim

[01:03:21] It's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you

[01:03:23] I mean, I'm sure many people listening and watching will be familiar with your writing

[01:03:27] But reminders fighting talk the telegraph you've got a back catalogue of wonderful books

[01:03:33] What tell us a little bit more about about some of those things? I've just written a book with uh,

[01:03:39] Phil McNulty at the BBC

[01:03:41] um about the Manchester United Liverpool rivalry called red on red and uh,

[01:03:47] Phil's from Liverpool. I'm from Manchester. So we're sort of you know, balancing it out. So

[01:03:52] Whichever persuasion you're of either Liverpool or or Manchester United

[01:03:57] There's a lot to enjoy in that book. Um, just talking to

[01:04:00] Everyone who's involved in the rivalry was was great fun. So uh, there's there's that one

[01:04:09] Fantastic. Uh, well, Jim

[01:04:11] It's been a pleasure speaking to you. Thank you so much for giving up your time today to share your dessert other matches

[01:04:16] Thanks so much for having me. It's been a pleasure

[01:04:22] So that was Jim Wine what a fantastic guest a dream guest for me to be perfectly honest with you

[01:04:28] I have read Jim's books and

[01:04:31] Some of the millions of words that he's committed to print over the years during his fantastic career

[01:04:37] He's such a down to earth approachable guy. He's been really really supportive

[01:04:41] Of of the show and and other things as well that i've done in the past

[01:04:45] So it was a real pleasure to get Jim on. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did

[01:04:50] And if you are a Manchester United fan or a Liverpool fan in particular red on red

[01:04:55] Sounds like quite a read again

[01:04:57] I think that may have been committed to print just before

[01:05:00] Liverpool won 7-0 much to Jim's pleasure

[01:05:04] If you are new to the show or even if you're not all the links you need to followers are in the description

[01:05:09] I'd really appreciate if you could leave me a review as well. That really helps to find new audiences

[01:05:15] You can support the show on buy me a coffee dot com that link is also in the description

[01:05:21] But generally speaking if you can just share this with other football fans who you think might enjoy it

[01:05:26] I would really appreciate it. There's a huge back catalog now over 40 episodes including clive tillsley

[01:05:32] Ashley ward danie wilson josh pew had some fantastic comedians on as well

[01:05:37] Go and have a look if you are new to the show

[01:05:40] So next week's show is my chat with author james green james has written a book all about

[01:05:48] Alternative realities what if southgate got sucked that and around about 20 other scenarios are all broken down

[01:05:56] In his great new book we look at one or two of them and rewrite football history

[01:06:02] That will be next week's show. So please do come back for james green in the meantime

[01:06:08] Thank you for watching. Thank you for listening

[01:06:11] I really appreciate you coming along and enjoying the show and I will see you back here next week's

[01:06:16] Alternative realities with james green. See you then