Man United's Treble-winning season with author Rob Carless

[00:00:00] Who could help but not get involved in that? Even Lothar Matthäus had gone to get his hands cleaned.

[00:00:06] It was complete and utter arrogance from the Bayern team.

[00:00:10] And there's a great story from Leonard Johansson, he at 1-0 had made his way down from the top of the Nou Camp

[00:00:17] via the lift to present the trophy.

[00:00:20] And by the time he got out, he saw the Bayern Munich players dejected and crying.

[00:00:26] He's thinking, why are they doing this? They've just won the European Cup.

[00:00:29] Hello and welcome to When Football Began Again, the podcast that is bravely recording this intro before a potentially historic Premier League weekend.

[00:00:40] Today's show is the penultimate show of season four.

[00:00:45] My guest is author and Aston Villa fan Rob Carlos talking all about his book Three Games in May.

[00:00:53] We'll come to that in a moment.

[00:00:55] In the meantime, thank you to everybody joining the show this week, especially Reading fans.

[00:01:00] Quite a few new Reading fans, I think, listening to the show this week.

[00:01:04] So welcome along. Thank you for joining.

[00:01:06] I hope you enjoyed our bumper double episode week last week all about Reading FC.

[00:01:12] I've had a love the response that especially that impassioned plea from both of my guests to basically get Reading FC back in control of the fans and out of the hands of terrible ownership.

[00:01:25] So that was a cathartic experience, at least I hope for anyone listening.

[00:01:30] And thank you if you are here for more.

[00:01:34] Also, at the end of that show, we did also pick the greatest Premier League Burundian.

[00:01:41] There were two options and I will reveal who the winner is at the end of today's show as well.

[00:01:47] Who is going in the Premier League of Nations Hall of Fame?

[00:01:52] But let's get on to today's episode.

[00:01:54] We are deeply rooted in 98-99 for today's show.

[00:01:59] Rob's book will become fairly self-explanatory as we go along three games in May.

[00:02:03] The three games he's talking about are Manchester United's three cup winning games that sealed the historic treble.

[00:02:10] But Rob's book builds on so much more than that, kind of the early years of Fergie, that 98-99 season and then the building blocks of his next major team.

[00:02:20] All of that is covered in this episode.

[00:02:22] Rob picks some of his favourite games, all specifically from 98-99.

[00:02:28] It seemed only right that that should be the theme.

[00:02:31] And that is a preview for next week's episode, which will end this series as well.

[00:02:34] We've got our 98-99 season review.

[00:02:37] It is a quarter of a century since that incredible season.

[00:02:40] So your next two episodes, the final two episodes of the series, will take you back down memory lane to 98-99.

[00:02:49] So let's head straight back there right now with Rob.

[00:02:53] Rob, lovely guy we've never met before.

[00:02:56] He was recording this on his lunch hour at work, lunch in his book Needs Must.

[00:03:01] So that's a lot of fun.

[00:03:03] He is a lovely guy and really knowledgeable.

[00:03:07] And an Aston Villa fan writing a book about Manchester United, an intriguing kind of approach.

[00:03:13] He really tells the story through the eyes of the fans, which is very much my passion as well.

[00:03:19] So here we go then.

[00:03:20] Rob Carlos, Desert Island Matches, all set in 98-99.

[00:03:26] Enjoy.

[00:03:30] Hello and welcome to When Football Began Again, the podcast that takes a nostalgic look at the Premier League era.

[00:03:37] Joining me today to discuss their specifically 98-99 Desert Island Matches and tell me all about their fantastic new book,

[00:03:45] Three Games in May, its author Rob Carlos.

[00:03:48] Rob, welcome to the show. How are you?

[00:03:50] Thanks, Carl. I'm very well.

[00:03:51] How are you?

[00:03:52] Yeah, really good.

[00:03:53] Thank you. I have enjoyed reading the book.

[00:03:56] I've enjoyed stepping back into 98-99 and all of our matches that we're going to talk about today are around that season.

[00:04:05] Before we do that, often when I interview authors who've released a book like this, it's normally about the team they support.

[00:04:13] That's not the case for you with Man United, is it? Who do you support?

[00:04:16] No, it's not. I'm an Aston Villa supporter.

[00:04:19] I have been since 1973, so 50 years this year of supporting the Villa.

[00:04:25] But yeah, that is my team.

[00:04:27] What was it about this particular season and I guess this Man United team that really drew you in for the book?

[00:04:32] A number of things really. The most captivating part, Carl, was the fact that if you take into consideration the charity shield,

[00:04:40] United played 63 games that season and by game 60 they'd won nothing.

[00:04:46] So they could have left that season absolutely partless, but in game 61 they won the league, game 62 the FA Cup,

[00:04:56] in game 63 they won the Champions League right at the last second of the game.

[00:05:01] And it's just phenomenal. No team has ever done that and I've had this book in my head for over 20 years, in fairness.

[00:05:11] I called it three games in May, about two weeks after the Cup final.

[00:05:15] So it's always been there. I just had the opportunity to get it done last year effectively.

[00:05:24] But it's just a phenomenal achievement with all the dramas that you can have in a sporting arena.

[00:05:33] And it just fascinated me. So I thought it was time to get the book out,

[00:05:38] but I wanted to write it from a fan's point of view as much as this is the season that Manchester United had.

[00:05:45] So I've got a lot of fans involved and I hope the book comes out or people pick up on the fact that it's the emotion of the fans

[00:05:54] which was the most important part of this, especially for those people that went to all three games at the end of that.

[00:06:00] Just absolutely amazing, incredible achievement.

[00:06:03] Absolutely. We're going to dig into some of the matches and some of the moments in that season a little bit deeper as we go through the show.

[00:06:10] Before we do that, obviously Manchester City, as we record this, Manchester City have just equaled,

[00:06:14] maybe in inverted commas, United's feet of winning the Premier League, FA Cup and Champions League

[00:06:19] almost a quarter of a century after Fergie's men won it.

[00:06:22] I'm going to ask you at the end how you think Manchester City's team compares,

[00:06:25] but your book does begin by comparing and contrasting that kind of pub debate of who and which team had the greatest season.

[00:06:34] And I know you put a couple of contenders out there.

[00:06:37] This was obviously published before Manchester City won the treble. Who were those teams and why?

[00:06:40] I call it terrace talking. So this is where I've been in pubs and I've asked that question

[00:06:46] and people have given me some really good salient answers to it.

[00:06:50] But the teams that stood out for me whilst I was writing this book was Nottingham Forest in 1978.

[00:06:57] Phenomenal season that they had, completely blew everybody away during the 77-78 season,

[00:07:05] including my team in the League Cup as well.

[00:07:08] But they'd done it from a point of view of just coming up and everybody was expecting a relegation from them.

[00:07:16] But they steamrolled the league and won it at a canter.

[00:07:20] They also won the League Cup that season as well by beating Liverpool,

[00:07:24] who were the team of the 70s or late 70s at the very least.

[00:07:29] And obviously Liverpool have got a mention as well.

[00:07:32] Manchester United stopped Liverpool doing the continental treble themselves in 1977.

[00:07:38] But the 83-84 season when they had Joe Fagan come through the boot room,

[00:07:44] they were absolutely phenomenal that season. Crazily brilliant.

[00:07:48] They won the European Cup and the League and they also won the League Cup as well.

[00:07:53] So not quite the treble as what Manchester United and now Manchester City have done.

[00:07:58] And Everton, obviously Liverpool's near neighbours there in the 84-85 season,

[00:08:03] the following season after Liverpool.

[00:08:05] They won the League European Cup winners' cup and Manchester United again stopped them winning a treble.

[00:08:11] They do love spoiling a Merseyside treble there, Carl.

[00:08:14] So they stopped them doing a treble themselves.

[00:08:18] But then you go back to Arsenal's double winning over the years.

[00:08:23] Aspen Villa have done it themselves, although millions of years before we came onto this planet,

[00:08:29] Preston Northend have done it as well I think in Tottenham.

[00:08:32] So there's a whole host of clubs that deserve to be in that gallery as far as I'm concerned.

[00:08:39] Well, your book starts by exploring the teams that Fergie built in his early days at Old Trafford.

[00:08:45] The 1990 side, then the 1994 side, now going on to that 1999 side.

[00:08:50] They failed to win the Premier League title for only the second time in six seasons to Arsenal the year before.

[00:08:55] He lets McLaren-Palester leave and replaced them with Dwight York and Jep Stam.

[00:09:00] Jesper Blomquist also joins in that pre-season.

[00:09:03] I mean, how good was Fergie at letting legendary players leave at the right time

[00:09:08] and kind of upgrading that squad with a replacement?

[00:09:11] I think he was the best, Carl, at the end of the day.

[00:09:14] He knew the sell-by date of certain footballers.

[00:09:18] You could argue that Paul McGrath, when he came to Aston Villa in 1989,

[00:09:23] was probably not in that category of sell-by date

[00:09:28] because he went on to have a great career with us, which was in our favour.

[00:09:34] But then he gets rid of McGrath for whatever reason that he felt he needed to

[00:09:41] and then brings in people like Steve Bruce, Gary Palester as you've just mentioned there.

[00:09:47] I think the biggest one was in the 1993-94 season

[00:09:52] when Brian Robson was coming to the end of his career and he brings in Ryke Keane.

[00:09:57] So there are a number of things, and not only at Manchester United,

[00:10:02] but he did it at Aberdeen as well in the 80s before he became Manchester United's manager.

[00:10:08] So he was absolutely superb knowing when he got the best out of his players

[00:10:14] and when he needed to improve on that.

[00:10:17] Alongside those squad upgrades, Fergie has an entirely different problem to solve.

[00:10:21] David Beckham returns from France 98 as public enemy number one in the media

[00:10:25] after his red card in Saint Etienne with public effigies burnt

[00:10:29] of the future England captain and national papers printing his face on a dartboard.

[00:10:33] The first game he'd cover in the book is United's 3-0 defeat in the charity shield to Arsenal

[00:10:37] before the opening Premier League game where Fergie's men are 2-0 down to Leicester at the break

[00:10:41] and yet Stam is subbed at half time.

[00:10:44] They do come back thanks to a Beckham goal and assist though.

[00:10:47] Is there ever a concern that Stam is not going to cut it in the Premier League?

[00:10:52] Yeah, I think that was a consensus that was going around the Old Trafford faithful.

[00:10:58] Some of the comments that I got from the fans during or being at that charity shield game

[00:11:04] was he looked off the pace, he looked a yard or so off the pace

[00:11:08] and fans were thinking have we made the right signing here with him

[00:11:13] and obviously more weight was added to that with the fact that he was subbed at half time against Leicester.

[00:11:18] So it wasn't a particularly brilliant time for him but I think that the pace of the league in England

[00:11:26] was something that he wasn't used to to start off with

[00:11:29] but he certainly made up for that a couple of games later.

[00:11:33] I think there's normally that kind of media thing, I think,

[00:11:35] certainly that Manchester United team at the time, I think everyone was always looking for a weak spot

[00:11:39] and for them to kind of maybe fail a little bit wasn't it?

[00:11:41] So that brings us to the first match you're going to take to your desert at Ireland.

[00:11:46] I've asked you to pick a Premier League game from this season featuring Manchester United.

[00:11:50] Which game have you gone for?

[00:11:52] Well, the first one I've gone for is the only game that I went to in that campaign

[00:11:59] where I saw Manchester United play and that was at Villa Park

[00:12:02] around the October-November time, could have been a bit later in the 1998-99 season.

[00:12:08] So it was the return of Dwight York.

[00:12:11] So you had Villa fans baying for his blood for us to beat Manchester United.

[00:12:17] At that time we were actually top of the league or in that top two or three

[00:12:22] and it was just a game where we really, really wanted to put it to United

[00:12:27] especially after they'd gone and got best player.

[00:12:30] And what had made it worse was to fund the Flames fuel

[00:12:34] is that York's only game for us that season was the first one

[00:12:39] and we played Everton away.

[00:12:41] And I think it's fair to say that he didn't try as hard as he could have in that game

[00:12:47] and it wasn't his best game, Carl, I'll leave it at that.

[00:12:51] And that stuck in Villa fans' throats as well.

[00:12:53] So it all added to a very spicy game.

[00:12:57] The game finished 1-1, we held our own.

[00:13:00] If I recall, United took the lead and I think Julian Joachim scored the goal for us.

[00:13:06] But all eyes, including mine, were on Dwight York that day

[00:13:10] and it was typical football pantomime.

[00:13:12] So it was a great game, a really, really good game.

[00:13:15] We started to fall off the pace after that one, funny enough.

[00:13:18] And United went on to greater things.

[00:13:21] That would be my first game.

[00:13:23] It was jam-packed. I was in the halt end that day

[00:13:27] and I was praying for a 6-0 win

[00:13:30] and Dwight York to get three own goals as part of it.

[00:13:34] But yeah, it was a great game, really good game, Carl.

[00:13:36] A good pick. And yeah, as you say, Villa, of course, this season.

[00:13:39] We know how the season ends, but Villa were top of Christmas that season.

[00:13:42] We were. I think we lost to Blackburn over the Christmas period,

[00:13:47] if I recall, and I think that set the tone for us.

[00:13:51] After another point at a hostile Upton Park for Manchester United,

[00:13:54] a first league win of the season arrives after going behind against Charlton.

[00:13:57] Dwight York is on the score sheet in a 4-1 win.

[00:14:00] It's a big fee for York.

[00:14:02] He begins paying it back right away though

[00:14:04] when he does get in that Man United shirt, doesn't he?

[00:14:06] Yeah, I think his debut game was that West Ham game

[00:14:10] where we had the Beckham eulogy.

[00:14:12] So he was finding his feet for that.

[00:14:15] But, you know, he played in that Charlton game.

[00:14:18] It was their first win of the season.

[00:14:20] Again, Man United came from behind to win the game.

[00:14:25] That was possibly the first one that they'd done that season.

[00:14:28] Although in the first game against Leicester,

[00:14:30] they were 2-0 down and pulled that back for a draw.

[00:14:33] On that day, he had a good relationship with Olly Gunasolska,

[00:14:36] and they both scored two goals apiece.

[00:14:39] The big thing about that is I call it the smiling match

[00:14:42] where he had a great grin to Dwight York.

[00:14:46] You know, we saw it for many years at Villa.

[00:14:48] And then United were getting the best out of it.

[00:14:51] So it was a game where he smiled all the way through the game.

[00:14:54] And at the end of it, after his two goals,

[00:14:56] the rest of the Stretford End and the rest of the ground

[00:14:59] were doing the same in unison as well.

[00:15:02] So, you know, Dwight York was interesting

[00:15:05] because it could have gone horribly wrong for him moving there.

[00:15:09] But it didn't.

[00:15:11] And when he looks back at his career, what a move for him.

[00:15:15] You know, and to form a great partnership with Olly to start off with.

[00:15:20] And then obviously the main one was him and Andy Cole.

[00:15:23] So, you know, even though I hated it at the time,

[00:15:26] it was the best move for him.

[00:15:28] And he's got so much to show for it.

[00:15:30] So, you know, so it was the smiling match.

[00:15:34] That's what I call it there.

[00:15:36] I think I use words like smiling in the chapter as well.

[00:15:40] So, yeah, very important win for them.

[00:15:42] Very important.

[00:15:43] On paper, we look back on it,

[00:15:45] Dwight York was a huge success at Man United

[00:15:47] and you might have said he was a proven Premier League goal scorer

[00:15:50] and therefore it was relatively risk free for Fergie.

[00:15:52] But actually the year before Fergie had signed Teddy Sheringham

[00:15:56] and that time at least wasn't going that well, was it?

[00:15:59] So is it just the size of the job of becoming a striker at Man United?

[00:16:03] Yeah, I don't think there is a risk-free element

[00:16:08] of ever going to Manchester United in fairness, Gal.

[00:16:11] You know, with the weight of what the club stands for,

[00:16:15] you know, it's a mammoth task for players to come in

[00:16:19] and play as a forward for the club.

[00:16:22] Sheringham didn't quite work out to start off with

[00:16:25] and was derided for that move at the time.

[00:16:29] But obviously it pays off as we get into the season there.

[00:16:33] But, you know, when you think about it,

[00:16:36] they had four great strikers to choose from.

[00:16:39] And even though Dwight York's double was balanced

[00:16:43] with Olly Gunasolski's double against Charlton,

[00:16:46] Olly was used as a substitute more and more during that season.

[00:16:50] But what an impact that he made.

[00:16:53] One thing is about the Nottingham Forest game when they won 8-1 away

[00:16:57] and he came on and scored five goals, I think it was,

[00:17:00] in the last 20 minutes of the game.

[00:17:02] So an abundance of riches for Ferguson that season.

[00:17:06] The next stop off in the book is the proposed takeover

[00:17:09] of Manchester United by B Sky B.

[00:17:11] The advent of Sky TV obviously has transformed English football.

[00:17:14] Now the broadcaster was trying to buy its star product.

[00:17:17] Just how much opposition did that provoke

[00:17:20] for anyone who didn't live through it?

[00:17:22] Yeah, everybody except for the Manchester United board

[00:17:26] and the people within Sky.

[00:17:28] That's how much it was derided effectively.

[00:17:32] Politicians were getting involved, you know,

[00:17:35] weren't Manchester United supporters.

[00:17:37] Supporters trusts were, you know, newly formed

[00:17:42] just on the basis of addressing this issue.

[00:17:45] And it must have been hard for the chairman at the time

[00:17:49] to go to the supporters meetings

[00:17:52] because I think they had a supporters trust stroke,

[00:17:56] you know, the annual AGM meeting at the time.

[00:17:59] And Martin Edwards stood up and was, you know,

[00:18:03] for the hour or so that it carried on.

[00:18:05] It was just, you know, the complete villain in the room.

[00:18:09] So it meant a lot for a broadcaster not to get involved.

[00:18:17] And it changed the scene because when it was

[00:18:20] eventually turned down a few months later,

[00:18:23] it meant that broadcasters could only take

[00:18:27] a certain percentage of clubs.

[00:18:29] And I think in Manchester United, I think in this case,

[00:18:32] it was no more than 10, 11% after that.

[00:18:35] So it was a game changer and it was a victory for football

[00:18:40] at that time because, you know, they'd flexed their muscles

[00:18:43] at the start of the 90s

[00:18:45] and it had gone really well for them.

[00:18:47] And then to get into being with the biggest club in the world,

[00:18:51] you know, at that time, it was a bad thing to happen.

[00:18:56] And luckily, the Monopolies and Mergers Committee

[00:19:00] got involved in it and it was thrown out.

[00:19:03] So I think in the book, I call it, you know,

[00:19:05] a victory for common sense and victory for football.

[00:19:08] And nobody wanted it, Carl.

[00:19:09] Nobody wanted it except for the money people.

[00:19:12] And coming back to the fixtures, there are points picked up

[00:19:14] in a Champions League group of death against Barcelona and Bayern Munich,

[00:19:17] plus victories over the Spurs in the group,

[00:19:19] Brombie as United showed their metal.

[00:19:22] There's also a 2-0 win over Liverpool,

[00:19:24] but Arsenal beat them comfortably at Highbury

[00:19:26] in the early months of the season.

[00:19:28] And actually, Arsenal remain the bookies' favourites for the title

[00:19:30] in that first half of the season too.

[00:19:32] One of the games that I think is forgotten in this season

[00:19:35] by non-United fans at least in the treble

[00:19:38] is the FA Cup fourth round game against Liverpool in January.

[00:19:41] What happened in that game?

[00:19:43] Was it a blueprint for the kind of the numerous late comebacks

[00:19:45] that would follow later in the season?

[00:19:47] I don't think it was a blueprint because they were winning games

[00:19:51] from losing positions on a number of occasions before this game.

[00:19:56] But what it did do was it was the blueprint for the European Cup final

[00:20:01] or the Champions League final because Liverpool took the lead

[00:20:05] very early in that game through Michael Owen.

[00:20:08] And it was 1-0 to them until the last couple of minutes of the game.

[00:20:12] Oli got one and I think Scholes got the other, I can't remember.

[00:20:16] But yeah, they were losing that game.

[00:20:19] And the 8,000 or so Liverpool fans that were in the away end

[00:20:23] were completely bamboozled by the end of the game

[00:20:26] because to all intents and purposes it should have been Liverpool

[00:20:29] who should have gone through on that one.

[00:20:31] But it showed the metal once more that Manchester United had

[00:20:36] and I think it was the blueprint for the Champions League final.

[00:20:39] There's certainly a lot of parallels in that one, Karl.

[00:20:46] So the second game for your desert island is a Manchester United game

[00:20:50] from 1998-99 that's not in the Premier League.

[00:20:53] What have you gone for?

[00:20:54] Yeah, well I could have picked any numerous ones in the Champions League

[00:20:59] but the real decider or the real inkling as to how Manchester United

[00:21:06] could go for that season came in the FA Cup semi-final

[00:21:09] when they played Arsenal.

[00:21:11] You know, both of them were going for the league.

[00:21:13] There was nothing between the two of them

[00:21:15] and they get drawn in the semi-final.

[00:21:17] The first semi-final, well they were both at Villa Park

[00:21:21] but the first was on the Saturday and it was a 0-0 game

[00:21:25] and it didn't really stand out for many reasons

[00:21:28] apart from sending off in the game.

[00:21:31] But the replay had everything, absolutely everything in this game

[00:21:37] and it had the moment that moved things into Manchester United's territory.

[00:21:44] If Arsenal would have gone on to win that competition

[00:21:47] I think they would have ended up winning the double again at the expense.

[00:21:52] It was a psychological game, especially given the fact that

[00:21:55] Arsenal had beaten them, as you quite rightly say, in the charity shield

[00:21:59] and in the league game and quite convincingly in both of those as well.

[00:22:04] You know, it really was the pinnacle of the season

[00:22:07] and it effectively came down to a penalty kick in the 90th minute.

[00:22:11] And the drama of that as well because obviously Peter Schmeichel

[00:22:15] had announced earlier in the season that this would be his final season at Manchester United.

[00:22:20] I think Manchester United are down to ten men at that stage as well

[00:22:23] because Roy Keen has been red, Arsenal step up,

[00:22:26] a Dennis Bergkamp penalty and Schmeichel saves it to take it into extra time

[00:22:30] which of course is that incredible moment where Ryan Giggs

[00:22:34] who's been brought on as a substitute,

[00:22:36] I think Lee Dixon spoke about this in the past,

[00:22:38] of just like going, they saw the team sheet and almost it was for everyone else

[00:22:42] it was like Ryan Giggs isn't playing, that's great news

[00:22:45] and Lee Dixon's immediate mind had gone to what's going to happen

[00:22:48] on 60-70 minutes when they bring him on to attack him

[00:22:51] and of course attacking him he does, doesn't he?

[00:22:53] Scoring that famous goal.

[00:22:54] Yeah, that was the difference between Manchester United and Arsenal on that night.

[00:22:59] The fact that United could bring on big guns during the second half

[00:23:03] and Arsenal couldn't in fairness.

[00:23:06] So that was a massive, massive psychological thing for United

[00:23:11] but that game had everything, Karl.

[00:23:13] From the start to the finish, great goals, Beckham scored a great goal,

[00:23:18] Dennis Bergkamp scored as well I think

[00:23:21] although there was a deflection off the upstamp.

[00:23:23] So the game had absolutely everything

[00:23:25] and I've got a wonderful story from one of the fans

[00:23:28] that was there during the game.

[00:23:30] He was sitting next to somebody that he didn't know.

[00:23:33] The penalty has been awarded.

[00:23:35] Phil Neville looks absolutely aghast by it

[00:23:38] because he was the one that made the foul

[00:23:40] and the fan in question told the other guy sitting next to him

[00:23:45] who said, I'm going, he picked up his keys and said, I'm going

[00:23:49] and basically the guy that wrote for me slapped his thigh

[00:23:54] and said, you're not going anywhere.

[00:23:56] He's going to save this, he's going to save this

[00:23:59] and when Schmeichel does make that save,

[00:24:01] they turn around and hug, not knowing each other's names

[00:24:04] and that was a moment in time

[00:24:07] and that to me sums up the football fan.

[00:24:10] It really does.

[00:24:11] But Schmeichel hadn't been playing well up to that point, Carl.

[00:24:14] Well, he had by the time that we got to that semi-final

[00:24:17] but at the start of the season,

[00:24:19] he hadn't quite announced that it was going to be his last season.

[00:24:24] The hierarchy within Manchester United had known about it

[00:24:28] but it came out around the October time

[00:24:31] and his performances had not been up to the usual Peter Schmeichel thing

[00:24:36] but you know as well as I do, Schmeichel gave them 15 points a season.

[00:24:40] He was that good a goalkeeper.

[00:24:43] He gave them 15 points a season as far as I'm concerned

[00:24:46] but that didn't quite gel at the end of it

[00:24:49] and I guess the fact that he was wanting to retire

[00:24:52] bore heavy on his mind.

[00:24:54] Yeah, yeah, but absolutely the hero.

[00:24:56] That penalty, if you think about it,

[00:24:58] was the defining moment of the season.

[00:25:02] Yeah, yeah, and the whole treble was on the line in that moment as well.

[00:25:06] Correct.

[00:25:07] So the third match to choose is a European night

[00:25:10] you'd relive again and again for Manchester United.

[00:25:12] This season what have you gone for?

[00:25:14] So easy to say the final.

[00:25:16] I think most people will forgive me for doing that

[00:25:19] but for me it was the semi-final when they played Juventus.

[00:25:23] Juventus were going for their fifth or sixth consecutive

[00:25:27] European final, most of those being Champions League.

[00:25:31] They had an abundance of world-class talent playing for them.

[00:25:36] Nzaghi was playing for them.

[00:25:38] The wonderful Zinedine Zidane was in the team as well.

[00:25:41] Kante was playing for Juventus as well.

[00:25:44] It was just a whozoo of the great players of the 90s

[00:25:48] at that moment in time.

[00:25:50] So they went into the game as firm favourites,

[00:25:55] firm favourites did Juventus, to reach another final.

[00:25:59] And they got a 1-1 draw at Old Trafford

[00:26:02] and it was probably United's worst performance of the season.

[00:26:06] And they were very lucky to get that goal right at the end of the game

[00:26:09] where Ryan Keane scored.

[00:26:11] I think it was from a half volley.

[00:26:13] But then in Turin, comeeth the hour, comeeth the man,

[00:26:16] which I talk about in the book as well,

[00:26:19] step forward Mr Rykeane.

[00:26:22] This is the game where he went, Brian Robson has moved on.

[00:26:26] And now I'm here because it was the type of thing

[00:26:29] that Brian Robson would have done a decade before.

[00:26:32] But he was captain marvellous, captain fantastic.

[00:26:36] Whatever superlative you want to throw at Rykeane on that night,

[00:26:41] it was just brilliant.

[00:26:42] They go 2-0 down within the first 11 minutes

[00:26:45] and Nzaghi gets two of them.

[00:26:47] So they're 3-1 down on aggregate.

[00:26:49] A couple of minutes later, they get a corner,

[00:26:51] Bex puts it in and a deft header from Rykeane

[00:26:55] brings the score back to 2-1 and 3-2 on aggregate.

[00:27:00] But what I loved about him was he doesn't celebrate.

[00:27:03] He goes straight into the net, picks the ball up,

[00:27:06] and he just doesn't take the accolades.

[00:27:10] He just moves back to the halfway line for the kickoff.

[00:27:13] And you're kind of thinking, wow, this man has got it in this game.

[00:27:17] And then a couple of minutes later,

[00:27:19] Skolz passes the ball to him and Zidane goes for it

[00:27:23] and he clips Zidane's heel and he's booked.

[00:27:27] The commentator for ITV that night turns around and says,

[00:27:30] he's going to miss the final of that one.

[00:27:33] And that was Clive Tilsley that said that.

[00:27:35] He also helped me with the book, which was a great help.

[00:27:38] And Keane knows it himself,

[00:27:41] but he gives such an amazing performance.

[00:27:45] United draw level at 2-2,

[00:27:48] and then I think Andy Cole scores the remaining goal

[00:27:51] and they go through.

[00:27:53] And then I remember Rykeane being interviewed after the game

[00:27:56] and he shows no emotion for himself,

[00:27:59] but all he's talking about is the team, the team.

[00:28:04] And I can't think in my 50 years of watching football

[00:28:08] a better captain's performance.

[00:28:11] He had everything that night.

[00:28:13] And it was such a travesty that he did miss that final,

[00:28:16] along with poor Skolz as well.

[00:28:19] That is the game that stands out for me.

[00:28:22] To be lucky at home and scrape a draw against

[00:28:25] the Italian giants and then go to their backyard

[00:28:30] and beat them there, just phenomenal.

[00:28:33] And that was a Rykeane game, end of.

[00:28:36] And of course, this is a time when English clubs

[00:28:39] were not the most powerful in Europe.

[00:28:41] But actually, the Italians, the Spanish,

[00:28:43] even to an extent the Germans,

[00:28:45] were the favourites going into these games.

[00:28:48] Well, we were still reeling from the Heusel Stadium in 1985

[00:28:53] and the impact of having the five or six years out of Europe.

[00:28:57] United had won the European Cup winners' cup

[00:29:01] and I believe that Arsenal had won a trophy as well

[00:29:04] in the early 90s.

[00:29:06] But yeah, in the Champions League,

[00:29:08] we were nowhere near it, absolutely nowhere near it at the time.

[00:29:11] And it was a time where Juventus ruled.

[00:29:13] It really was.

[00:29:15] So with an FA Cup and a Champions League final in the diary,

[00:29:18] the Red Devils miss a golden chance to pretty much

[00:29:20] wrap up the Premier League title at Ewood Park

[00:29:22] against relegated Blackburn drawing 0-0,

[00:29:25] which takes the title race to the final day

[00:29:27] and match 61 in the book.

[00:29:29] All United have to do is match Arsenal's result

[00:29:32] to win the title, but they go behind to a Les Ferdinand goal

[00:29:35] against a very conflicted Spurs side.

[00:29:37] Goals from David Beckham and sub Andy Cole do secure

[00:29:40] trophy one of three though and a fifth Premier League title.

[00:29:44] Remarkably, it's the first that's been won

[00:29:46] in front of the old Trafford crowd.

[00:29:48] I mean, is that significant for the test that lay ahead

[00:29:50] in game 62 and game 63 perhaps?

[00:29:53] Not so much in game 62, Carl,

[00:29:55] because that was a relatively easy stroll,

[00:29:58] if you like, in the FA Cup final.

[00:30:00] But certainly for the final itself

[00:30:02] because all Tottenham needed to do...

[00:30:04] Arsenal beat Aston Villa that day.

[00:30:06] So they did their part.

[00:30:08] And I was at the game in the Villa end for that.

[00:30:11] So all Spurs needed to do was nick a goal.

[00:30:15] And as Brian Cloughall said,

[00:30:17] it only takes a second to score a goal.

[00:30:19] And it would have meant that Arsenal would have won the league.

[00:30:23] So they had to keep that momentum going

[00:30:26] right until the very last minute.

[00:30:29] And that really did bode well for game 63.

[00:30:32] Yeah, yeah.

[00:30:33] And of course Fergie comes out onto the Old Trafford pitch, doesn't he?

[00:30:36] And thanks to fans.

[00:30:37] Because we say fifth title of the Premier League here,

[00:30:40] a fifth title for Manchester United

[00:30:42] after that quarter century period

[00:30:44] where they'd not won a league title.

[00:30:46] And Fergie gets his moment in front of the crowd, I think,

[00:30:49] to kind of steal everyone for the couple of weeks ahead.

[00:30:52] Absolutely, yeah.

[00:30:53] He played one game at a time.

[00:30:55] He knew exactly what Pep Guardiola was going through this season

[00:31:00] inasmuch as they've won that league now.

[00:31:04] And now it's time to concentrate on the FA Cup.

[00:31:08] His mind was not on the Champions League.

[00:31:11] It was on the FA Cup.

[00:31:13] So he took one game at a time.

[00:31:15] And that was the beauty about Alex Ferguson.

[00:31:18] He played the game and never, ever the occasion.

[00:31:21] And I think that's where the younger managers at that time

[00:31:26] weren't quite so good because they played the occasion.

[00:31:29] But he never.

[00:31:30] He took it in his stride.

[00:31:32] And obviously they went on to beat Newcastle in the FA Cup final.

[00:31:35] Well, the fourth game to take with you onto a deserted island,

[00:31:38] a step away from Manchester United for a minute

[00:31:40] because it's a Premier League game from 1998-99

[00:31:43] that doesn't involve Man United.

[00:31:45] So which game from this season would you go for?

[00:31:48] OK, well it has to be an Aston Villa 1-call.

[00:31:51] A game that I was there and a game that had everything

[00:31:54] and could have had a lot of tragedy as well.

[00:31:57] So it was an early December 1998 game

[00:32:01] when Villa were top of the league, I think, or in second place.

[00:32:06] And we had Arsenal come to town,

[00:32:08] the league champions and the FA Cup winners.

[00:32:10] And before the game, I think it was before the game,

[00:32:14] we'd had some kind of RAF show

[00:32:17] where we had the parachute come down.

[00:32:19] So it was a skyfall.

[00:32:21] And what had happened was,

[00:32:23] one of the guys that had come out of the plane,

[00:32:26] his parachute had landed on the top of the Trinity Road stand at Villa Park.

[00:32:30] And he dangled there for quite a while.

[00:32:33] And I can still see it in my mind's eye now thinking,

[00:32:36] is this part of the strategy?

[00:32:39] Is this part of the process?

[00:32:41] And it became quite clear that it wasn't

[00:32:43] when the ambulances started to come round.

[00:32:46] Luckily, I think he broke his legs, the unfortunate guy,

[00:32:50] but he did make a recovery on that.

[00:32:52] So, you know, that was the tragedy part.

[00:32:56] Very fortunately, that wasn't the case.

[00:32:58] But in the game itself,

[00:33:00] Arsenal took the game to Villa in the first 45 minutes, went 2-0 up.

[00:33:03] I think Dennis Bergkamp got both of those,

[00:33:06] but I could be wrong there.

[00:33:07] And we're looking dead and buried.

[00:33:09] We've lost one of our first games of the season a couple of weeks before,

[00:33:13] and then we're all starting to think,

[00:33:14] the pin's there, it's bursting the bubble.

[00:33:16] And then we score three goals in the second half.

[00:33:19] I think I'm doubling scoring two of them,

[00:33:21] and Julian Choacham getting the other one.

[00:33:23] And we win the game 3-2.

[00:33:24] So it's that legendary game where you're 2-0 down at half time

[00:33:28] and win 3-2.

[00:33:30] And then we went back top of the league for a short while

[00:33:33] with the Man United game coming up, if I recall.

[00:33:36] But that game had absolutely everything.

[00:33:38] It was the Sunday afternoon game as well.

[00:33:41] So Martin Tyler and the rest of the team were there,

[00:33:44] and we served up a great game of football.

[00:33:47] And was that genuine hope, I imagine, among Villa fans,

[00:33:50] if you're top on Christmas Day and playing some good stuff?

[00:33:53] You're very much in that title race.

[00:33:54] I know that isn't how it worked out in the second half of the season,

[00:33:57] but do you remember that real optimism

[00:34:00] that this could be Villa season?

[00:34:02] Well, we'd been there before, Carl,

[00:34:04] in the inaugural Premier League season,

[00:34:09] where we lost to United at the end in that first one.

[00:34:13] And two years before that, or three years before that,

[00:34:16] we'd been top at Christmas and lost out to Liverpool.

[00:34:20] So I certainly wasn't getting carried away,

[00:34:22] and the people that I went with weren't getting carried away as well.

[00:34:26] I think the unfortunate thing was during that season,

[00:34:29] we went unbeaten for the first 11, 12 games or whatever it was.

[00:34:34] And on that last game, we played Southampton away, we won 4-0.

[00:34:38] Dion Dublin had just signed for us at that time.

[00:34:41] And John Gregory had all the players on the pitch

[00:34:44] taking the group photos, and I'm thinking,

[00:34:47] oh, this is game 11, 12, guys.

[00:34:50] We look like we've won something, can we haven't?

[00:34:53] And that kind of haunted us from that moment on.

[00:34:56] So I think in terms of Villa,

[00:34:57] that was as good as it got against Arsenal that season.

[00:35:00] And on The Parachutist, I actually did a bit of research into this.

[00:35:03] There's a great article online in The Guardian.

[00:35:06] The man, he was dressed as Santa,

[00:35:08] an RAF parachutist with over 6,000 jumps to his name called Nigel Rogoff.

[00:35:13] He hits the stand, pretty much falls to the floor from the top of the stand.

[00:35:17] It's awful to see.

[00:35:18] He broke both his legs and arm, his pelvis, he suffered internal injuries.

[00:35:22] Within a couple of hours he was being operated on,

[00:35:25] he remained ventilated for three weeks.

[00:35:27] It was into the new year when he woke up

[00:35:29] and then had to make the terrible decision

[00:35:31] as to whether he would have one of his legs amputated after,

[00:35:34] in his words, he pretty much left most of his kneecap on top of the stand.

[00:35:38] So far, so depressing, but that's when the story changes.

[00:35:42] In medical rehab, he meets a nurse called Sarah, who he goes on to marry.

[00:35:46] They end up on Richard and Judy, have two sons,

[00:35:49] and by 2002 Nigel is circumnavigating the UK by sea kayak with a hand cycle,

[00:35:55] raising money for the National Blood Service,

[00:35:57] who needed a massive blood transfusion, and the Royal British Legion.

[00:36:01] In December 2015, he and three other amputees set off

[00:36:05] on a 3,000 mile journey across the Atlantic

[00:36:07] on an expedition called Four Men, Three Legs.

[00:36:11] They arrived 46 days later, waving their artificial limbs in celebration.

[00:36:15] He continues to raise money for charity to this day

[00:36:17] and has since learned to paraglide,

[00:36:19] has got a pilot's license and has taken up scuba diving.

[00:36:22] He's since apologised to anyone at Villa Park traumatised by the incident

[00:36:26] and said they came to watch a football match

[00:36:28] and ended up seeing Father Christmas bounce off the stadium roof.

[00:36:31] So he's alive and well,

[00:36:33] and he did suffer some life changing injuries from that incident,

[00:36:36] but actually it launched an entire new chapter in his life

[00:36:40] which was very positive.

[00:36:41] Yeah, and if you look at me, I've been smiling all the way through,

[00:36:44] you're telling all that, so that's just a wonderful, wonderful story.

[00:36:48] Having children and meeting the love of his life as well,

[00:36:51] that just makes me feel a whole lot better, because it was horrible.

[00:36:55] It was horrible to see, definitely.

[00:36:57] Yeah, you know, really great story,

[00:36:59] there's an article in The Guardian.

[00:37:00] We love you Nigel.

[00:37:02] I'd love it if Nigel's listening, that would be fantastic.

[00:37:06] The FA Cup final against Newcastle is up next for Manchester United.

[00:37:10] It comes just six days after Spurs and four days before Bayern Munich.

[00:37:14] Teddy Shearingham replaces the injured Roy Keane after seven minutes

[00:37:17] and scores 90 seconds later

[00:37:19] before setting up Paul Scholes for the second

[00:37:21] in what is a walk in the park for the Reds, as you say.

[00:37:24] He'd been subbed off for Andy Cole

[00:37:26] and jeered as he left the field in the previous match, Teddy Shearingham,

[00:37:29] but he's about to have the defining week of his career.

[00:37:32] How close was he to being written off at Old Trafford as a failure?

[00:37:36] I don't think within the Old Trafford hierarchy

[00:37:40] and people around Manchester United,

[00:37:43] I don't think for them it was that case with him.

[00:37:47] The game before where he was pulled off

[00:37:49] and Andy Cole came on was of course against Tottenham-Otspor,

[00:37:53] the team that he'd left to go to Manchester United.

[00:37:56] So obviously they had a vested interest in the D-Day match,

[00:38:01] the derision that they put his way,

[00:38:04] but that was also picked up by the national press as well.

[00:38:07] But Teddy Shearingham,

[00:38:09] there's a reason why Teddy Shearingham played on in his 40s

[00:38:13] because he wasn't a great runner,

[00:38:15] but he was a superb football brain

[00:38:18] and that football brain came out during those last couple of games of the season.

[00:38:22] He knew exactly where to be at the right time

[00:38:25] and that's why that man carried on well into his 40s

[00:38:28] because he was an intellectual footballer.

[00:38:31] As you quite rightly have pointed out there, Carl,

[00:38:34] what he did in those last two games

[00:38:37] goes down in absolute legend returns these days.

[00:38:41] And of course replacing Roy Keane,

[00:38:43] who kind of has not had the best of luck going off injured

[00:38:47] with the Champions League finals,

[00:38:49] which he's already going to miss.

[00:38:51] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:38:53] That was weighing down on Roy's mind

[00:38:55] and I think from that moment he was taken off,

[00:38:58] he just wanted to get drunk.

[00:39:00] Which he did quite a lot during the build-up to the Champions League final.

[00:39:04] But yeah, big thing for both players,

[00:39:07] absolutely big thing for both players.

[00:39:09] But yeah, Shearingham overturned his critics.

[00:39:11] One thing I found interesting in the book that you'd kind of uncovered

[00:39:14] was that almost the Newcastle fans going back to the tube

[00:39:18] were kind of saying, you know, celebrate,

[00:39:20] but actually for Man United they were part two of three

[00:39:23] and maybe this is the one that they felt was in the bag.

[00:39:26] And the game never really felt in jeopardy

[00:39:28] even from a very early stage did it.

[00:39:30] So I imagine a strange atmosphere for the Man United fans,

[00:39:33] they've just won an FA Cup, they've just won the domestic double,

[00:39:36] but their minds on other things, isn't it?

[00:39:38] Absolutely, you know, Game 63 is coming up.

[00:39:41] You know, it's great what they've done.

[00:39:43] The Newcastle fans were in great vices, they always are.

[00:39:48] And in unison.

[00:39:50] The fans that I interviewed were, you know, thinking about,

[00:39:54] I've got to get a plane now over to Barcelona and all that kind of stuff.

[00:39:58] Some could see that as arrogance,

[00:40:00] but that's where Manchester United was at the time.

[00:40:02] And I think we'd all take that as football fans to be in that position.

[00:40:06] But yes, it was a strange feeling for the Newcastle fans

[00:40:09] that were there in the tube stations after.

[00:40:12] So we get to Game 63 of 63.

[00:40:14] It's a face-off with Bayern Munich,

[00:40:16] a side that Manchester United had previously never played before

[00:40:18] at 98, 99, and now they meet for the third time in a season

[00:40:21] and a date with destiny.

[00:40:23] It's easy to forget that despite seven years of TV money,

[00:40:26] the Germans are the Buckeys' favourites,

[00:40:28] and Mario Basler puts Bayern into the lead after six minutes,

[00:40:31] a goal which still divides the sides when he's subbed off on 89 minutes

[00:40:36] and gives a bit of a victory salute on the way off the pitch,

[00:40:39] which Teddy Sheringham later says infuriates him.

[00:40:41] Now, I'm not a Man United fan, but I was a teenager at this point

[00:40:45] and still probably a bit bruised from Euro 96.

[00:40:48] I remember the first goal injury time lifting me off my sofa at home.

[00:40:52] How did you react?

[00:40:54] Same as you, but I was 33.

[00:40:56] So my back hurt a lot more than yours would as a teenager, Carl.

[00:41:02] Yeah, who could help but not get involved in that?

[00:41:06] You know, they were dead and buried, absolutely dead and buried.

[00:41:09] And you talk about the first goal there and the victory salute,

[00:41:13] even Lothar Matthäus had gone to get his hands cleaned.

[00:41:17] So it was complete and utter arrogance from the Bayern team.

[00:41:22] I guess in some ways a lot of that team had been the team that had won Euro 96.

[00:41:28] That still hurts just to say that, Carl, doesn't it?

[00:41:31] It still hurts, it still hurts.

[00:41:33] So, you know, the nucleus of that team.

[00:41:36] And there's a great story from Leonard Johansson,

[00:41:39] who was the FIFA president at the time.

[00:41:41] He, at 1-0, had made his way down from the top of the Nou Camp

[00:41:46] via the lift to present the trophy.

[00:41:49] And by the time he got out, he saw the Bayern Munich players dejected and crying.

[00:41:55] He's thinking, why are they doing this?

[00:41:57] They've just won the European Cup.

[00:41:59] So he'd missed the two goals that had been scored.

[00:42:01] Wow.

[00:42:02] But Scheringen, there on the spot, knew exactly where to be.

[00:42:06] Fantastic.

[00:42:07] And Schmeichel does get a knick-on with his header when he goes up for that.

[00:42:11] Absolutely.

[00:42:12] I can't say, because this is a friendly podcast,

[00:42:15] I can't say what Sir Alex said to Steve McLaren about him going up for that corner.

[00:42:21] I'm sure he's so glad that he did now.

[00:42:24] And Clive Tills, of course, on commentary, can Manchester United score?

[00:42:27] They always score.

[00:42:28] At the equaliser, he says name on the trophy, which is one hell of a call.

[00:42:31] Surely that one would have haunted him forever had it not happened.

[00:42:34] So, yeah, an incredible climax to a game.

[00:42:37] Almost unprecedented.

[00:42:38] Totally.

[00:42:39] And for United to win it in the dying seconds of a gruelling season and come back again,

[00:42:46] what character?

[00:42:48] You know, I say in the book, Carl, this isn't just a Manchester United story.

[00:42:53] This is a story for our times, whether it be a netball team,

[00:42:59] whether it be an individual tennis player.

[00:43:03] Just look at some of the things that Manchester United were involved in in that season.

[00:43:08] The big word from December was momentum.

[00:43:11] That was what carried them through.

[00:43:13] But it is, in my eyes, the greatest sporting story of all time.

[00:43:17] So the fifth and final match you deserted Ireland is an international match from this season

[00:43:21] you'd like to take with you. What have you gone for?

[00:43:24] Yeah, I'm going to go for a game that was played on the 27th of March, 1999.

[00:43:29] And it's a very important date for me and I'll tell you why in a minute.

[00:43:33] So we played Poland in the qualifying for the European Championships,

[00:43:39] which were held in 2000. I can't remember exactly where.

[00:43:43] But we played Poland now.

[00:43:45] Of course, whenever we get Poland in a qualifying group,

[00:43:49] it always takes us back to 1973, doesn't it?

[00:43:52] And then when England failed to qualify for the 74 World Cup

[00:43:56] and the Clown goalkeeper for Poland at the time.

[00:43:59] So we've always got that added spice in that game.

[00:44:02] It was also Kevin Keegan's first game in charge of England as well.

[00:44:06] And we won the game 3-1.

[00:44:08] And Paul Scholes, to me, was the greatest number 10 in the world during those times.

[00:44:16] And he scored a hat-trick and just was played superbly in the game.

[00:44:22] I think it took us top of the league in the group.

[00:44:25] And this was the day before my daughter's first birthday.

[00:44:28] She was born on the 28th of March.

[00:44:30] So I remember sitting there with her, watching the game,

[00:44:33] and we got off to a great start with that.

[00:44:35] So yeah, for sentimental reasons and for footballing reasons,

[00:44:39] the Kevin Keegan thing, the Poland thing,

[00:44:41] Paul Scholes being the greatest number 10 at that moment in time,

[00:44:45] scoring the hat-trick, it just has to be for me.

[00:44:47] Yeah, special memories at Old Wembley.

[00:44:49] And of course, I suppose Kevin Keegan,

[00:44:52] the demand I think that people had wanted him to be England manager.

[00:44:55] And he names five-man United, four-man United players.

[00:44:58] There's Gary Neville, Phil Neville comes on, Beckham Cole, Scholes,

[00:45:02] and he's starting line up.

[00:45:03] He also gives Ray Parler and Tim Shearer with their England debuts that day as well.

[00:45:07] So the treble is won.

[00:45:09] The rest of your book focuses on the build that begins for the next great Fergie side

[00:45:13] that will lift another European Cup less than a decade later.

[00:45:15] You reflect on how the modern game wouldn't have afforded Fergie the time

[00:45:19] to even build the 1990 side, let alone all the others,

[00:45:21] citing Ranieri and Pochettino who performed miracles of varying degrees

[00:45:25] before being sacked less than a year later.

[00:45:27] Will we ever see the reign of Fergie again?

[00:45:29] I'd like to say yes as a traditionalist and as a football romantic,

[00:45:35] but it's not that way anymore.

[00:45:38] Fergie came into Man United in December 1986 or November, whatever it was.

[00:45:46] Didn't win his first trophy until May 1990.

[00:45:49] So it's almost three and a half seasons.

[00:45:52] And in a couple of those seasons, they don't even finish in the top 10.

[00:45:56] So he was rather fortunate.

[00:45:59] And we all know that Mark Robbins' goal against Nottingham Forest in the FA Cup saved his job.

[00:46:04] But interestingly enough, in the game after that, in the fourth round,

[00:46:07] they played Hereford away and Clayton Blackmore scored with six minutes to go.

[00:46:12] And if they'd have lost to Hereford, it would have been the same thing.

[00:46:15] He'd have been on his bike there.

[00:46:17] But yeah, it was a great insight from Martin Edwards and the United board at the time

[00:46:25] not to sack him, to give him that time.

[00:46:28] And of course, you know, what he went on to do.

[00:46:31] But you cite there and I cite in the book about Ranieri and Puccino as well.

[00:46:37] It's, you know, both of those have done extraordinary things.

[00:46:42] And within a year, both of them were out of a job.

[00:46:45] You know, it's absolutely ridiculous.

[00:46:47] You know, it's a different ballgame these days with the influx of overseas management

[00:46:53] and obviously some of that being state owned now and whatever.

[00:46:58] It's changed so much. It's absolutely changed so much.

[00:47:02] So will we ever see a Fergie again?

[00:47:04] No, I don't think we will.

[00:47:06] But you know, if you look at arguably the best two managers over the last 30 years

[00:47:11] of Bean Wenger and Fergie for many years, you know, both of them have stayed in their job over 20 years.

[00:47:19] So it's all about the succession planning.

[00:47:22] And that's exactly what Pep's doing now.

[00:47:24] So perhaps Pep is the exception to that rule at this moment in time for what he's doing.

[00:47:30] But yeah, will we ever see something like Fergie again?

[00:47:33] I don't think we will. But I'd love it.

[00:47:35] We're going to give you the opportunity of redemption from your deserted island

[00:47:38] and offer you the chance of a current or former Premier League player to come and rescue you.

[00:47:42] Well, a player from 1998-99, which Premier League player would you go for?

[00:47:47] Raikin.

[00:47:48] He's going to get it.

[00:47:49] It's going to have to be Raikin.

[00:47:52] I mean, I love our fourth writer he is when he's on the TV.

[00:47:55] But you know, in life, you like to be with those people that you think you could be in the trenches with.

[00:48:03] And Raikin would be my trench or daylan.

[00:48:07] So I can't say anything but Raikin on that one.

[00:48:10] It'd be entertaining if you do get stuck with him.

[00:48:13] So it is a debate now that will rage on between the two rival sets of fans for years to come.

[00:48:18] Obviously, Pep Guardiola's Manchester City side in 2023 have equaled the treble achievement.

[00:48:24] How does that compare for you with Fergie's team in 1999?

[00:48:27] And will we ever see a team win the quadruple at the League Cup in there or is that just one step too far?

[00:48:33] Good question.

[00:48:34] Liverpool tried it in terms of the quadruple the season before and couldn't quite pull it off.

[00:48:40] And even with the two cups they won that year, they never scored a goal in any of the final.

[00:48:45] They both went to penalties against the same team.

[00:48:48] So I think quadruple is too much, personally speaking.

[00:48:51] Can the continental treble be done?

[00:48:54] Yeah, I think it can be done again.

[00:48:56] It may not be done for quite a while, but teams from Italy, Spain, Celtic have done it as well.

[00:49:02] You know, so and the Dutch have done it.

[00:49:05] So yeah, it can be done again.

[00:49:07] But if you're asking me about the parallels between Manchester City and Manchester United,

[00:49:13] I would say this to you.

[00:49:15] Technically, the best players were Manchester City's.

[00:49:18] But for pure football drama and having to come back, then I think Manchester United is the greatest of the two.

[00:49:29] You know, I could write a book and this is no disrespect to Manchester City.

[00:49:32] But if I wrote a book about their season now, they're winning games 3 or 4-0.

[00:49:39] They're not coming back from games like Manchester United did.

[00:49:43] It doesn't have the same kudos to me.

[00:49:46] And City had won the league before that last game of the season.

[00:49:50] The FA Cup was a close affair and so was the Champions League, but it never went down to that final second of the match.

[00:49:58] So I think for pure drama, I'm going to go for Manchester United.

[00:50:02] But you know what, Carl? I would say that, wouldn't I?

[00:50:04] Fair enough, fair enough. Less jeopardy, I suppose.

[00:50:07] I'm going to give you the chance as well to delete a game from 98-99, take it to the deserted island with you, effectively put it in Room 101.

[00:50:14] Which game would you go for?

[00:50:16] Yeah, there's only one for me and I'm going back to, I'm taking the author head off and going back to being a football fan.

[00:50:23] Yeah, we lost to Coventry City in the second half of the season 4-1.

[00:50:28] We hadn't lost to Coventry City for years and years and years at Villa Park.

[00:50:34] And they ruled the game and that was the, that was the, the farthest draw for me in terms of we'd gone from top and we moved down to sixth.

[00:50:43] And that was, that was part of it. So it was embarrassing as I lived close to Coventry at that time.

[00:50:48] It was embarrassing to see the Braggenrides, you know, going firmly towards Coventry.

[00:50:53] So yes, that would be the game that I would delete from my memory.

[00:50:57] OK, that's gone. That's disappeared.

[00:50:59] And I'm going to give you a football to take with you to the deserted island.

[00:51:03] You've potentially got the rest of time to recreate one goal from this season.

[00:51:07] Now, we normally make it a Premier League goal, but I'm going to extend it given the nature of the book to allow it to be outside of the Premier League as well if you like.

[00:51:15] Which goal would you go for?

[00:51:17] There's only one goal, I think, and that's Ryan Gies' goal against Arsenal in the semi-final.

[00:51:23] We spoke about how he was bought on, the fresh pair of legs.

[00:51:28] You know, it was a wayward ball from Patrick Vieira that was picked up, you know, and he just raced forward.

[00:51:36] Vieira tried to redeem himself but couldn't. He goes into the penalty area.

[00:51:41] He's got two of the tightest defenders in front of him in terms of Lee and Tony Adams and goes past them and puts the ball high into the Arsenal net.

[00:51:52] And then takes his top off as we know.

[00:51:55] And he's twirling it around like it's in a washing machine, showing us that he's got a hairy chest at the same time.

[00:52:02] But yeah, that to me is the goal of the season.

[00:52:05] So you're going to have to maybe use coconuts for Leediksen or perhaps you'll have to ask Roy Keane to play the part of Leediksen? That'd be interesting.

[00:52:14] Maybe so, maybe so. But yes, that would have to be the goal for me.

[00:52:19] Well, Rob, thank you so much for joining me today. The book Three Games in May is out now.

[00:52:24] Where can people get hold of it and is there anything else in the pipeline?

[00:52:27] Oh, there's plenty in the pipeline.

[00:52:29] So first and foremost, if everybody goes to www.bobsbooks66.co.uk, I forgot about that part.

[00:52:38] The year I was born, 30 days old when we won the World Cup.

[00:52:42] So, so yeah. So if you go to there, www.bobsbooks66.co.uk, that will give you the chance to buy it.

[00:52:50] Buy the book from my publishers, Morgan Lawrence.

[00:52:53] But you know, all the usual suspects are there, Amazon and all those you can purchase it from.

[00:52:58] In terms of other books, yes, I'm working on the autobiography for Sean Teale, who played for Aston Villa in the 90s.

[00:53:08] So I'm working on his book, which comes out in September of this year.

[00:53:11] And next year, can I give a bit of an indication of what we're working on?

[00:53:15] I'm working on the history of the League Cup as it's 65 years into it, which I've got some great stories from it and how it came about.

[00:53:23] And I'm also working on the history of Newcastle United as well.

[00:53:27] Brilliant. Well, we'll put the link as well into the description for the show so you can get that.

[00:53:32] And I've read the book. It's great, really enjoyable.

[00:53:35] And I think as long as you as long as you don't have an absolute allergy to Manchester United, you don't have to be a Manchester United fan to enjoy it.

[00:53:41] I would suggest it. So it's a really enjoyable read and a nice step back into that season.

[00:53:46] And as you say, really from the fans perspective, which I think is certainly what gets me interested in a book like that.

[00:53:53] Thank you. I really appreciate your comments there.

[00:53:55] Well, Rob, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a pleasure talking to you.

[00:53:58] Thank you, Carl. It's been a pleasure speaking to you as well.

[00:54:04] So that was Rob. What a fantastic guest he was. A pleasure to chat to him all about 98, 99.

[00:54:12] And first off, I've got to apologize to Rob. That was recorded last summer.

[00:54:16] So those books that he kind of trailed may be quite a long way ahead by now. So do keep an eye out for those.

[00:54:22] But three games in May, a fantastic book. If you're a Man United fan, this should be on your bookshelf.

[00:54:28] If you remember the season fondly, I would recommend it.

[00:54:31] Three games in May. I'll put the link in the description for the show to get your copy.

[00:54:37] 98, 99 is where we are going to stay next week. More on that in a moment.

[00:54:40] Before I tell you all about that, last week we chose the greatest ever Premier League Burundian.

[00:54:48] My guests were split between the two choices, Gail Bagirimana and Sido Barahino.

[00:54:54] Sido perhaps at the higher profile of the two players. So it proved in the public vote.

[00:55:00] 67% of you wanted to put Sido Barahino into the Premier League of Nations Hall of Fame.

[00:55:06] So in he goes representing Burundi. I did actually have a look on his Twitter

[00:55:11] and he was hosting a bit of a Q&A on there only a few days ago.

[00:55:15] So I did put in a cheeky ask to see if he fancied coming on the show. If you don't ask, you don't get.

[00:55:20] So who knows? Maybe Sido Barahino is a future guest on this show.

[00:55:25] I think that would be an interesting episode to say the least if he did come on.

[00:55:29] So fingers crossed. If you are new here, there is a magnificent, I dare say, back catalogue of former guests on the show.

[00:55:39] We've got amazing broadcasters like Henry Winter, Clive Tilsley, Jules Warren.

[00:55:43] We've got ex players like Brian Dean, Danny Wilson, Mark Draper, Neil Cox, Ashley Ward.

[00:55:50] All of these shows and many more are in our back catalogue.

[00:55:54] So if you're new here, please do like, subscribe, hang around, dig deep.

[00:55:58] Season three is about to end. I've got some amazing guests lined up for season four already

[00:56:04] and some new concepts to try as well. So please do hang around if you just found the show

[00:56:09] and leave us a review. Why not? It does help me find new listeners.

[00:56:13] I'd really appreciate that. Everything you need is in the description to this show.

[00:56:18] So next week, we are going to stay firmly planted in 98-99, a full quarter of a century after it happened.

[00:56:25] Obviously, it's a season that is dominated by Manchester United, but there is lots to talk about in 98-99

[00:56:31] other than Manchester United's treble. And my guests are going to be fantastic.

[00:56:35] They are reunited from episode one on 92-93, Marvin Dickinson and James Cook, Manchester United fan,

[00:56:43] Aston Villa fan. We last left them in May 1993.

[00:56:47] We're going to pick straight back up where we left off in August 1998.

[00:56:52] I haven't actually recorded this one yet, unlike a lot of these intros.

[00:56:55] Normally next week's show has been recorded. I am recording that later this week.

[00:57:00] I'm really looking forward to chatting to the lads and I've got quite a bit of Premier League years to catch up on as well.

[00:57:06] So that should be our final episode next week. And that will end season three.

[00:57:13] I'll have more on what season four has got in store next week as well.

[00:57:17] But that's it for this week. Thank you to my guest, Rob Carlos. Please do go out and buy his book.

[00:57:23] Please do like and subscribe and leave me a review. If you want to buy me a beer, you can do that on buymeacoffee.com.

[00:57:29] That is also in the description for this show. But all that's left for me to say really is thanks again for watching.

[00:57:35] Thank you for listening. I will see you back here again next week for the final episode of this series, 98-99 with Marv and James. See you then.