Zero listeners? Here's why

[00:00:00] Bad internet ruining recordings. Riverside captures perfect audio and video, whatever you set up. Riverside means no loss in quality with local recording that's ideal for pro-quality podcast production. Keep the perfect take with Riverside. Start for free. Hit the link in our show description. It is really, really hard to get a listener direct from social media into a podcast. The user journey just isn't there.

[00:00:26] Hello and welcome to The Podcast Advice Show, your go-to place for the latest tips and takeaways. Whether you're a seasoned pro, hitting a plateau, or just starting your journey, The Podcast Advice Show talks to industry leaders who've cracked the code to podcasting success. From mastering audio quality to growing your audience, we uncover techniques that actually work. We, by the way, is me. I'm Damien St. John, and he is...

[00:00:52] Ant McGinley, I am in awe that you managed to make those rhyme because looking at when it was written down, I never thought that pro and plateau, EAU and RO would rhyme. Beautiful. You know, it's a sign of things to come. Together, we'll be sharing battle-tested insight to help power your show up the podcast charts. Our guest, our first guest here on The Podcast Advice Show is Jim Salverson, director of sport at the Sports Social Podcast Network.

[00:01:20] You heard him there at the top of the episode. He'll be back with loads more nuggets of advice in a bit. Okay, let's crack on with episode one, titled Zero Listeners, The Brutal Truth About Podcast Growth. I thought I'd make it a bit dramatic. And actually, what's nice is right now, at the moment we're recording this, we have zero listeners. True, because we haven't published yet. Yeah, it is real truth. Although, in an inception way, people are listening to it now, in the future.

[00:01:49] So, let's cut through the noise. You've started a podcast, you've poured your heart and soul into creating content, and yet the listener numbers are crushingly low. You're not alone. The podcast landscape is brutally competitive, with over 4 million podcasts fighting for attention in an increasingly saturated market. You know, I heard a stat that the average person listens to between four and six podcasts.

[00:02:18] So, you consider the amount of podcasts that are out there, that any person that you're trying to target is only ever going to pick four to six, and they might already have one that is similar to yours. So, when you're saying that there's those podcasts fighting for attention, it's literally like you have to fight one of the podcasts they're already listening to, to make space for your podcast to fit in their listening schedule. Yeah, or you kind of hope that they've binged everything.

[00:02:45] Like, you've seen all the Star Trek, so then maybe you go to Lower Decks or something like that. So, there's a challenge with not being next in the queue, because I think we'll get to discoverability, but they will get to you at some point. You've just kind of got to be ready. Well, you say that. You say that. Four million podcasts. I'm not going to get to all of them at some point. You know, that's the fact of it. The trick is to start listening to podcasts when you're in the womb. Most new podcasts, believe it or not, never breach the 100 listener mark.

[00:03:13] In fact, the median number of downloads for a podcast episode in the first 30 days is 141. But here's a great piece of spin for you to use. If you do have 141 people or more listening to every episode of your podcast in the first month, you can legitimately and officially say that your show is in the top 50% of all podcasts that are out there. And considering that there's 4 million, that's pretty good. The problem isn't your content.

[00:03:42] It's not that you lack talent or interesting perspectives. It's fundamentally, and let me know if you agree, visibility, strategy, and understanding how podcast discovery actually works. A hundred percent. When I started doing this a long time ago, my definition of success was literally hitting publish. And I used to think that was all there is to it. There's so much work that goes into creating a podcast.

[00:04:07] When it's just you, by the time you get to that stage where you've figured out what you're going to talk about, you've got all your guests, all your material, you've recorded it, you've edited it, you've done the show notes, you've put it out, you're exhausted. And then you're on to the next episode. It's relentless. But the big difference between those podcasts that have relatively small audiences or go unheard and get passed by,

[00:04:33] and those podcasts that seem to make a big splash when they arrive, is strategy. I wonder whether a lot of grassroots podcasters that makes up the majority of people who do podcasting across the globe only see celebrity-driven podcasts as where they should be aiming for. And they think, well, how can I compete with that? Because I'll put in hours and hours of work to craft a single episode.

[00:05:02] And they said they've got an entire team that goes behind it. And then maybe they're equating effort with outcome. And I don't think that's quite right. I think the point here is, like, even though you've got platforms like Spotify and Apple that, like, use a recommendation system, that's something that can work in your favor. I think Kevin Costner has a lot to answer for this because it's paraphrasing Field of Dreams in that if you make your podcast, the listeners will come, the listeners will find it.

[00:05:30] And actually, the brutal truth is you have no right to an audience. And as we've already established, there's a lot of podcasts out there that people are already listening. People only have so much time. They only have so many podcasts on their slate. So you have to not only let somebody know that you've made this podcast and convince them that it's worth them giving it a shot, but then you've got to then make it become part of their routine almost to listen to your show. Let me challenge this statement.

[00:06:00] High listener retention rates signal genuine audience engagement. And in fact, is that the right measurement for audience engagement? So one of the issues you've got to be aware of with a podcast when you look at your stats, if you want to activate that audience, if you want to reach out to them and say, hey, can we do this? Because you've only got, at the moment, a one-way street because you put a message in the podcast and then they have to do something to come back.

[00:06:28] I would say an engaged audience is something where you have a conversation with them. There's interaction. So that was whether you're putting out live content, maybe on another platform, they're interacting. Maybe you have a Discord or you're having emails, chat rooms, those kind of things. Did I see chat rooms? That's going back a little while, isn't it? Not for you. You're permanently stuck in the early morning. I've just got an AOL message. I've got a fax. Hang on. Oh, look.

[00:06:56] Don't you just love that paper clip that helps you how to do your emails? I think what's interesting on your point is, and we talk about this in comedy, really, shows that all writers or performers that want to do comedies, don't let anyone be a gatekeeper for what you want to do. The point on engagement would be if you're pushing to the likes of Apple, Spotify, wherever you can get some podcast promotion and you feel like you're shouting in the wind. Don't leave your growth up to those guys, especially if you're grassroots.

[00:07:24] Like cross-promotion is really important. Pairing up with other shows and not being afraid to say, look, you do a basketball podcast. I do a basketball podcast. Why don't we just trade live reads or find a way to engage with each other? Because then you're dipping your toe into that ecosystem. You've got to network. You've got to start being a better part of the ecosystem. Time for a voice notes feature on the podcast advice show. We're calling the Ants Sewing Machine.

[00:07:54] May we never change the name. It's Ant's modern take on technology and actually a really cool way to get guests on without having to sort of pester them with calendar invites. Oh, just drowning in those. So basically, Ant is reaching out to podcasting professionals all across the podcasting sphere. Names you'll know, names you might not have heard of yet, but all connected to the industry with some valuable nuggets of information to share.

[00:08:21] Okay, so the first contributor to this feature is Jim Salverson of the Sports Social Network, a huge network of sporting podcasts. And they also produce content for many big brands, including Premier League football clubs. So they kind of know what they're talking about, as does Jim. So the first question I put to Jim for this feature was, How much energy should you be putting in to social media to promote your show? And do you have to be on all the platforms?

[00:08:51] Plus, what kind of content should you be sharing? Simply, as much time as you have. It will be your key way to find and convert listeners. But it is really, really hard to get a listener direct from social media into a podcast. The user journey just isn't there. It's more like putting up a billboard in a town centre and hoping people remember you next time they come to a podcasting app.

[00:09:20] So think of it like that. You're not going to get that direct click, but someone might remember you when they're going through picking their next podcast to listen to. So with that in mind, two things are important. Branding and emotion. Emotion is what makes people remember stuff. If you can make someone feel something, that puts a little flag in your brain and you then have more chance of recalling that moment. But then when they do recall that moment, do they remember it was you and your podcast?

[00:09:46] So is your branding strong enough and is the messaging clear enough on your social posts that this is a podcast. You can get more of this by searching us in your podcast app. Also, have a think about what each social media channel does and adapt your content accordingly. So Twitter X, for example, is terrible at finding new people, finding new audiences. In general, unless you go viral, the only people who ever see your posts on that platform are the people that already follow you. So that channel is all about remarketing and reminding people you exist.

[00:10:16] Always a wise man, isn't he? He does know. He knows his stuff. Time for a break on the podcast advice show. We'll be back after this. We're back on the podcast advice show. I also asked him about show notes. So what does he think podcasters should be putting in their show descriptions and indeed their episode titles to help new listeners find them through search and recommendations?

[00:10:46] There are a few various trains of thought on this. Some people think that full transcripts are useful in podcast bios, podcast descriptions. I'm less sure, especially as a lot of the main platforms now, Spotify and Apple at least, have searchable transcripts that are also generated alongside podcasts. So it's kind of superfluous to a certain extent. However, I think you should look at your description to serve two functions. One, enhance the show experience. One, two, aid discoverability.

[00:11:14] So in terms of show experience, I listen to a lot of politics shows and I like it when there is further reading style content in the show notes. So that kind of, if you like this, there's more of this here in the bio. You can click a link. You can read a book, whatever it is. That might not directly benefit your listening numbers, the amount of people finding your show. But I do think that extra action, that kind of clicking a link as a result of something you heard in a podcast just strengthens that relationship.

[00:11:41] It deepens that engagement between the podcaster and the listener. In terms of discoverability, do some reading on SEO because the way SEO works is really similar to how podcast SEO works. Broadly the same. Think about what someone who is interested potentially in your podcast might be searching in a podcast app and how you can pop up when they search that term. Think about keywords. Think about sentences. Think about questions that you can all put in your podcast description.

[00:12:11] Spotify now has a really good tool, by the way. If you use Spotify for podcasters, you can kind of see the journey that people can go on between finding your podcast via search and how that translates through to a listen. And whether you're hitting those KPIs, those key percentages in terms of that translation from search to listen. It's interesting. So have a dig around in that. But ultimately, going back to the keywords, put all of them in priorities. So the higher priority of the keyword, the more relevant it is to your content.

[00:12:38] Make sure it's earlier on in your description because that's how the search tools work. And whatever you do, don't use AI. Don't tell AI to rewrite this for podcast SEO because it makes you sound weird. Jim Salverson, Director of Sport at the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you so much for your insight on the first ever answering machine. I'll pick up on something that Jim mentioned quickly. Do you remember blogging? Blogging was a thing.

[00:13:08] I'm planning to start doing that next year. Right. So when we talk about SEO and keyword generation and all of that, I think it's important just to pause and think, is your show, when you've got your show description and even your episode description, three friends go off and play a board game? Have you really signaled to the world that your show is about what it's really about? Good thing with your show description is once that's set, leave it.

[00:13:36] One of the things I would challenge Jim slightly on. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. We'll never have another guest on again. Uh-oh. Just in terms of the show notes, what you will find, there's lots of software out there now that will take the transcript of your show and then make a suggested title, several suggested titles, and also suggested show notes for you. Now, you don't have to use what they put, but use that as a starting base. Some of them are very good.

[00:14:03] Some of them are included with your hosts and are captivate, have a very good one, for example. From that point of view of not having the budget, not having the team, not necessarily having the strategy in place, on a practical basis, as an indie podcaster, when you get to that stage, it is a godsend. I agree. My preferred workflow would be when you're planning episodes, just to factor in 10 minutes to do that as you plan, just to help you sharpen your SEO and your keyword search.

[00:14:30] Make it habit as part of your planning process, because then you don't have to do so much at the end. Moving on. Acquiring your first 1,000 listeners, if you've yet to reach that peak, does require a bit of a strategic approach. I think we've kind of covered that. A unique angle to help potential listeners stop scrolling and click subscribe is useful. An example would be calling your podcast Me and My Baby.

[00:14:55] If you don't have any audience to bring to that, should you not consider putting in an extra word in your episode title or keep thinking about what the story is, what the narrative is within your podcast series? I'm very much a Ron Seale guy. I like it to do exactly what it says on the tin. Another cultural reference. Bang up to date. Thank you. Snakes on a plane. But for example, snakes on a plane, you hear that.

[00:15:24] You can pretty much work out what it's about and even what people say in it and the plot. I think in many ways it's the perfect title. Netflix have this great thing. The Rowan Atkinson show. It's called Man vs. B. I think it had a very intelligent, chin-stroking title before. And Netflix went, when people are scanning this back catalogue of stuff, they'll stop at Rowan Atkinson. Cool. I know him, Mr. Bean. Other people know him as Blackadder. But they'll go, oh, I don't really get the title.

[00:15:54] So Netflix's obsession is the most basic title there is. So someone in the Netflix HQ went, why don't we just call it Man vs. B? Because then people know what it's about and they'll hit play. And as long as you can get them to hit play, they'll start consuming. Without knowing what the other title was, I would say that is a very clever title. Because it's very easy to remember. You may never get something that specific. And I'm not saying don't do your podcast until you have that.

[00:16:24] But aim towards that. If you can get close to that, I think you're onto the right naming strategy. Oh yeah. The show, Man vs. B, was originally called House Sitter. Now consider, a little exercise for you if you're listening. The first three to five assumptions about a Rowan Atkinson TV series called House Sitter. And tell me if any of those involve a bee.

[00:16:49] And it's interesting when you realize it's easier than you think to join up the dots before you hit publish on a podcast episode. Or before you put yourself out there on social media. Does this make obvious linkage sense? I just invented a phrase there to the thing that I'm trying to do. Really interested now to see what you're going to title this episode based on your philosophy there. Did he get it right? Let's find out. So you want to get to your first 1,000 listeners. It's not all about total download numbers.

[00:17:18] It's about, as we discussed, listener retention rates, audience engagement, community building, and potential monetization opportunities. A podcast with 500 highly engaged listeners is infinitely more valuable than one with 5,000 passive downloads. The advice, the takeaway really from this episode would be to try and treat your podcast like a business, not a hobby. I think love it like a hobby, but just consider the kind of strategic joining up of things.

[00:17:46] And that doesn't mean you've got to go into spreadsheet hell, right? It just means before you make another decision, sleep on it, have a dinner, try and qualify it, and ask yourself whether someone who's never listened to your podcast before is going to get sort of common sense feeling for what you're about to do. Would you rather have 500 engaged listeners or 5,000 passive ones? And there was a big part of me that went, the 5,000. I'd like the 5,000, please. And that's a little thing Freud called the ego.

[00:18:14] The really cool thing about engaged listeners as opposed to passive listeners is an engaged listener is more likely to tell somebody else about your podcast. It's a really powerful way to bring new listeners on board. If you've got a passive audience and you're just speaking to them all the time, going back to what Jim said in his message, you can make that mistake of just delivering that same message to the same people.

[00:18:38] There's no strategy in that because those people, well, maybe if you wait long enough, they will eventually make new people and the audience will grow that way. But you may be looking at 15, 16 years before they're an active listener. So I will refer back to from grow to plateau, the rhyming phrase that we used right at the beginning to wrap up this episode of the podcast advice show. The brutal truth is that that's kind of what happens for a while.

[00:19:07] What got you here won't get you to the next phase, right? I think some form of growth is expected when you start a podcast and it's organic and you don't really know where people are coming from. But that wouldn't be a growth strategy. That would be a measurement or an assessment of where you've managed to get so far. So the brutal truth then is probably most podcasters quit before they have a chance to see meaningful growth.

[00:19:31] And that's probably because they just need to improve their visibility and think a bit more about their strategy. Would you agree? Yes. But I think part of the reason why a lot of people quit is they looking at just one metric of listeners of downloads. And I think it's more than just that. And similarly, when you're setting out your goals, your aims, your reasons for doing the podcast, I think it has to be more than just figures. Yes, it's great to have that. And there's a lot you can do with that.

[00:20:01] But just that number, it should be part of your strategy. But it shouldn't be that alone. There should be other things in there. Yeah. Yeah. Don't stress about the numbers you'll get there. Your first 1,000 listeners or your next 1,000 listeners will always be the hardest. After that, it does become significantly easier to maintain and grow your audience. That was episode one of the podcast advice show. Zero listeners, the brutal truth about podcast growth.

[00:20:29] Episode two, you'll be excited to hear this. Monetization secrets. When brands actually want your show. So maybe you've got some audience and you're thinking, oh, kind of paying for a bit of hosting or a bit of editing software or paying for some help. I could do it getting some of that money back. Good news. There is a way to do it. And remember, if you've got questions, I've got answers. So get them to us. I'm like some kind of question sniffer dog. And we'll find the answers.

[00:20:59] Yep. So future episodes, if this helps, future episodes on monetization, finding your unique podcast voice. Questions to ask yourself before your next episode. Are you alienating your sponsors without knowing it? We've got a whole host of things to talk to our future guests on the answering machine. So if they kind of prompt a question, do get in touch. You can find our show at getpodcastadvice.com. We are on the socials.

[00:21:26] As we've learned, it's tricky to grow an audience via social media. But if you want to come and hang out, you'll find some clips and everything else on there. Until next time, we haven't come up with a catchphrase yet. I've got one. I've got one. All right. If you build it, they will come. Not. I was going to do a really naff, strictly rip off. Keep podcasting. But then I sort of hate myself a little bit if we did that. I hate you already. Just do podcasts.

[00:22:05] This podcast is part of Podomity, the UK's podcast comedy network. Why not laugh at what else we've got? Visit podomity.com.