243. Black Sunday (1977) - Guest: Steven Kobrin, author of Servant of the Earth

[00:00:38] Welcome to SpyHards Podcast, I'm Agent Scott. And I'm Cam the Provocateur. And Scott, what exactly is this Super Bowl? I thought it was Superb Owl. Oh, hoo hoo. Like a really, really good owl. Hmm. Is that like the... Okay, so is that like the owl in Winnie the Pooh or the owl in Secret of Nim? I haven't seen the second one, so I'm going with Winnie the Pooh.

[00:01:05] Okay, well, let's just say the owl in Secret of Nim would lay waste to the owl in Winnie the Pooh. What about the giant owls in Lord of the Rings? Are they the most Superb Owls? I thought they were eagles. Wasn't there also owls? Were there owls? I'm recalling eagles. Who? Who? Who knows? Yeah, Scott is really taking the glory away from the Owls of G'Hool.

[00:01:32] I really am. I really am. But yeah, we've got a very superb film to talk about this week, which we'll get to in a second. But we must continue our tradition of looking back at your thoughts on the previous week's film. Last time on the show, we took a look at 2008's Traitor or Traitor with Don Shadle, directed by Jeffrey Nakmanoff, who we had on the show last week as well, to talk about making the film. So, Cam, what have you got for us?

[00:02:00] Yeah, so I've got a comment on Facebook from Michael Fenimore, who says, Brilliant episode, lads. And then in brackets, as said in Don Cheadle's terrible Ocean's Eleven Cockney accent. Now, I would have tried to approximate it, but I don't remember the accent very well. Well, Cockney's a little bit like Michael Cack, so you've got to kind of lean that way. How was Don Cheadle's, though? Because I remember people criticizing it, but I haven't seen that movie since 2001. I don't remember, so I can't say. Okay, well.

[00:02:28] Well, let's just say it wasn't an Ocean's Eleven. It was more like an Ocean's Seven. Sure, sure. So, yes, enjoyed the episode. And talking about twist endings, he points out the 1966 Cold War thriller, The Quiller Memorandum, which follows an agent in Berlin who discovers a shocking truth at the end. I'm not going to reveal what he says after that, because he actually indicates what the twist is. It's so amazing. Spoilers, Michael. Come on!

[00:02:55] Don't feel bad, Michael, because I can guarantee you I won't remember what it was by the time we get to that movie. But ultimately, when we are looking at compiling our list of great spy movie twist endings, then Quiller Memorandum may be a contender later down the road. Well, it's one we have to get to eventually, and I say have to as if I'm being forced to, as if I'm being chained to this podcast. But I really love doing it, except for on days like this where we're in a heat wave and I'm melting. Well, true enough. True enough. Indeed.

[00:03:24] But we've got some more comments. The first one is an interesting comment because it takes, if anything, the joke is a gif, so it's kind of hard to interpolate into a podcast. But Cam, you do know your Roadrunner quite well, so I'll let you try and sort of figure it out. But this one comes from official Ramel Varub over on Threads. And they say, I came for the plot. And this is the plot.

[00:03:52] And it's a picture of Roadrunner chasing around Wile E. Quillote. Okay. Yeah. And I realized I said Quillote. I know it's Coyote. I just mispronounced it, folks. Okay. Don't chase me around with an Acme Dynamite stick. Okay. Quillotes and apparently owls in Lord of the Rings. You might call me Don Quillote. Very good. Very good. A book I've never read. I don't know if that joke lands.

[00:04:22] If you've ever read Don Quillote, who knows? I've never read it either. Oh, look at that. This is why this isn't the Spy Books podcast. It's the Spy Hards, because we find it hard to read books. That's what it actually stands for, which we find it hard to do anything else. The whole point of me studying literature in university was like, I'm going to check off all these classics. Including Chekhov. Including Chekhov. And then we really covered very few of them over the course of my four-year journey. And so you stuck to an audiovisual format for the rest of your career, which is film.

[00:04:52] We just watched John Grisham films, and they were like, that's good enough for you. Yeah, that'll do. Your homework this week, kids, is to read Harry Potter. No, I'll just watch the films. Same thing, right? They're like, we're putting on the gingerbread man. I'm like, that one's not even based on a book. They're like, shut up. Don't ask questions, Cam. The last one comes from first-time writer in Mike over on Blue Sky at JARAC on Blue Sky. And they say, first time hearing of this movie and thus first time viewing.

[00:05:21] Despite the genuine message it kept itself leaning towards action and drama, which made it entertaining, for me at least. Don, Guy, and Saeed were excellent and supporting cast strong. Overall, a positive experience. Yeah, yeah. Like, I think this is a movie that definitely deserves people checking it out. If you ignored it at the time, and it was not a big box office hit for sure, give it a watch. It is not, despite maybe how the marketing came across, a generic spy film.

[00:05:50] No, and there's a reason why I wanted to end on that comment, because I think I agree with the sentiment. You know, we had our issues with it, and we took some of those questions to Jeffrey, too, when we interviewed the director and the writer. But it is a film that has more to it than you'd think. And I think a lot of the times we tend to lean back on comfort food, on films we've seen before. If there's ever a moment you're feeling a little bit adventurous and you want to watch some post-9-11 spy cinema that perhaps is a bit more challenging than some of the stuff that was coming out around that time, I'd say stick traitor on. I agree. I agree.

[00:06:20] And you know what? It's a really solid political thriller that sort of, like, leads into this week's political thriller. Anyway, folks, that's enough about Traitor. Let's get to this week's film. But before we do, I've just been given free tickets to go see a blimp show. Hopefully that doesn't end catastrophically. Well, Cam, it's time to get to it. I've got my calendar out, and the seventh day seems to have a black mark on it, and I'm not sure why.

[00:06:48] That sounds rather ominous. Like a blimp. A shadow being cast over us, perhaps. Perhaps, perhaps. Is it Max Zorin? We'll find out. Oh, a view. To a kill. I can't do a Max Zorin impression, and I probably shouldn't try. But joining us is a man who might be able to do a Max Zorin impression. I don't know. I haven't asked him. But joining us on the show for the third time, dear, dear friend and creator of the Man from Belize series, whose new book, Submit of the Earth, comes out June 26.

[00:07:18] It is the one and only Mr. Steve Cobran. Hello, sir. Welcome back. Hello, Scott and Cam. No, no Zorin impressions for me. But I'm very excited. I'm very happy and excited to be with you guys today. We've got a really interesting film to talk about here. This one's special in many ways, but I'm sure we'll get to it. But there's much to unpack with this movie. That's for sure. There's a lot of hot air in this film.

[00:07:48] We should have done this entire episode while breathing in helium. Yeah. And then I'll do a Zorin impression. Yeah. With helium, it sounds perfect, though, oddly. What a view. To a kill. Ooh. Yeah. Well, maybe the outtakes at the end of the episode. We'll go get some helium and shoot up for you guys. Probably not, though. That sounds much darker. Yeah. I'm not planning on shooting up helium anytime soon. I certainly hope. I know Cam's not. He's Mr. T-Total. But Steve, I don't know what you're up to over there these days.

[00:08:18] No, I'm just doing water and tea. I'm good. Oh, good man. I'm on the tea myself. But before we get into this week's film, what's been new? I mentioned you've got a new book coming out. What's happening? Well, I mean, I'm delving lightly with great caution into the world that you gentlemen do so expertly, the world of podcasts.

[00:08:42] I just finished directing an audio drama called The Picture of Lana McKenzie, which was a lot of fun and a lot of interesting actors in the show. And it's available wherever you hear your podcasts. It's kind of my homage to supernatural murder mysteries and film noirs of yesteryear. And I'm preparing my next audio drama, which is an excursion into the realm of science fiction

[00:09:08] based on another one of my original screenplays, which I'm currently casting. And then, of course, we've got Servant of the Earth, the completion of the Man from Belize saga, which is going to be or I should say, which is going to be out very soon, which sort of brings everything to a close. But I don't know. You never know. It was something that was very special to me from the outset, something that was a pet project of mine for the better part of a decade.

[00:09:34] And now seeing it reach its conclusion is kind of a, well, it's bittersweet to say the least. But there are good things sort of like hovering in its overall atmosphere. So we'll see what happens. I think that there's something imminent down the road for the Man from Belize saga. But we'll just have to sort of, we'll sort of have to sit tight and wait and see. Well, when you finished Servant of the Earth, it's one of those cases where you talked about

[00:10:03] very early on when we had you on the show about how you wanted this to be a trilogy. And then you were like, when you came on to talk about Sins of the Raven, you talked about, well, maybe we should leave some like, kind of like a door open in case we want to revisit that world. But when you finished Servant of the Earth, did you have a feeling of completion? Or do you still have that sense of like, I need some time away, but I don't know what the future is? Right. So Servant of the Earth to me feels like it does have closure.

[00:10:32] At the same time, though, I was aware that if, you know, God willing, something happens with this and these books were to actually get made, I knew that it was probably going to serve the material and myself better if I were to not close the door entirely, but leave it slightly ajar, which I think I did at the very least, not where that narrative is concerned. That narrative is done.

[00:10:57] But certainly where the outcomes of the characters themselves are concerned, because without giving away any spoilers, the end of Servant of the Earth reveals a relationship, let's say, which may or may not have bearing on what the future could hold for the Kent Sterling character. I'll just leave it at that. But let's just say to your point, Cam, that if I were to explore anything in the future,

[00:11:26] that would probably be the road I'd be traveling. Kind of a deeper exploration of that relationship that we're sort of hinting at, at the end of Servant of the Earth. And with the idea being that that would be a whole new, you know, laying of groundwork and terrain that would seem and feel very fresh to me. Because the last thing that I want to do if I were to do a fourth installment would be to

[00:11:52] feel that I'm sort of like, you know, Xeroxing or just sort of like treading familiar territory, that would not be I don't think that would be interesting for the reader. It certainly wouldn't be stimulating to me. But I think that there's a there's a window there, a window of opportunity that, again, if it calls for it, I'm more than ready to to tread those waters again. I'd have no problem with that. I'd be remiss if I didn't mark an occasion going by. Cam, I mean, congratulations.

[00:12:22] You just ask someone if they have a feeling of completion and no one laughed. I mean, what a remarkable thing we all just did there. The restraint that took. Well, you know, this is why they pay me the big bucks, folks. Start up with the jokes. No, I was going to say, though, Steve, smart not to, you know, set yourself up for a Jason

[00:12:51] Bourne where you finished the ultimatum with that, like, holy smokes, they did it. And then they didn't really have anywhere to run from. Like, it's smart that you left yourself at least a window that's slightly ajar. That's exactly right. That was the intent all along, Cam, is I was kind of like reaching the end of Sins of the Raven and realizing that I was ending on a proverbial cliffhanger.

[00:13:13] I was like, no, OK, this definitely is it's going into very uncharted territory for me. But at the same time, I need to kind of like I definitely need to at the end of this third one of Servant of the Earth, I need to really. I need to shut the door hard on this narrative. But as I say, not necessarily the characters themselves and the relationships. So that's how I that's how I decided to finish it all.

[00:13:41] I'm I'm I'm very pleased with that. I think the readers will I think the readers will find it both exciting and and certainly unique in the way I just sort of like wrapped everything up and just tried to make this an excursion into the spy genre that felt unfamiliar yet at the same time paying homage. That was always the intent.

[00:14:05] So, well, I think we've we've assembled the team here and I mentioned that calendar I've been looking at. And, you know, you get your manic Mondays. You often get your sort of Ruby Tuesdays. You can get Wednesday morning at 3 a.m. No one likes that. Thursday by Jess Glynn is the only example of Thursdays I could find that was in a song format. So I couldn't make a pun for that one. But then I stumbled upon Friday and I'm in love. And then, you know, Saturday.

[00:14:34] Well, that's just all right for a fight. But what about the other day? Sunday? Hmm. Hmm. There may be a song or two, right? I think there might. Yeah. Is there a film as well? There is a film. We are here this week to talk about 1977's Black Sunday starring Robert Shaw and directed by John Frankenheimer, not to be confused with the 1960s horror film Black Sunday. Yes. Right. By Mario Bava. Yes. Right. The classic. Oh. Oh, I think I've made a mistake. Uh-oh. Uh-oh.

[00:15:03] This is going to be a very lopsided review here. Yeah. I'm sorry. It was all in Italian. I just figured that had to go with it. You watched that version of the film, huh? That cut? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. No, no, no. I watched the right one. Don't worry. I'm an idiot, but I'm a professional idiot. Mm-hmm. And like any professional idiot, what I'm going to do is vamp for the next few seconds whilst I pull up the synopsis of the film that I should have had prepared before we started recording, Cam. What do you think to that?

[00:15:33] But don't worry. I'm here. I'm here. Black Sunday. It could be tomorrow. Could be. I don't know. Sure. I mean, today it's not. It's Thursday, actually. I mean, technically speaking. An Israeli anti-terrorist agent must stop a disgruntled Vietnam vet cooperating in a Black September PLO plot to commit a terrorist attack at the Superb Owl. Super what? Oh, sorry. Super, Super Bowl. The Super Owl. Super Bowl. Superb Owl. Superb Owl. Gotcha.

[00:16:03] Gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we don't do that here. We play actual football. Oh, jeez. Oh, jeez. Let's not turn that into. I'm going to wear armor and I'm going to run into it and then take a stoppage for 10 minutes and it's going to be eight hours long. As opposed to random fainting every time someone brushes past them. Oh, oh, oh. Fall to the ground. I like how Cam's coming hot against soccer right now. Because if he had an opinion, he'd never have one before. I have no opinion whatsoever. No.

[00:16:33] I need to have something, though, in the face of your besmirching of classic American football. It's nice to see North America united between the two of you. Yeah, that's what brings us together. I'm glad the British could bring you together. Right there for the pigskin. Brothers to the end. Oh, yeah. Well, let's talk about sort of first ventures with this film. It's my first viewing, so I'll abstain.

[00:17:01] But, Steve, this was your pick. You sort of nominated this one. You wanted to talk about it. Before, obviously, you get some reviews and such. Why is this one important to you? And what was sort of your first experience of it? My first experience with this movie was actually similar to when we were last together with Marathon Man in that I discovered it on a premium cable channel here in the States

[00:17:29] that sadly no longer exists called the Z Channel. And I discovered many great American pictures of the 70s and 80s through that channel. When this picture, Black Sunday, was originally released, it came out in 77. I was far too young to see it in the theater. However, in the early 80s, which was really the heyday of the Z Channel and peak HBO, that was when I found it. And it enthralled me then.

[00:17:56] And what I find fascinating is that over the course of nearly 50 years, it's almost uncanny to me to think that this picture is turning 50 next year, but it is. My perspective on it has amplified. I like this picture much more now than I did then. However, I would never go to the extreme of saying that I ever even marginally disliked it. I always liked it.

[00:18:22] And I can say with absolute certainty now and confidence that I love it now, because when you consider this picture, this picture seems much more vital, urgent and prescient today than it did back then. I feel it does. It's going to be very interesting as we delve deeper into the conversation, because I'll

[00:18:50] say two more things about it and then kind of like veer off into our other directions about first impressions and favorite scenes and whatnot. There are very interesting tangential connections with this film with three things that we all, the three of us here, greatly admire. And that's Marathon Man, the world of Bond and the world of Hitchcock.

[00:19:15] I'm going to that's why I said at the beginning, there's maybe more to unpack here than there was with Marathon Man. Right. But so here's the thing. Marathon Man connection. So here we have with Black Sunday, a Paramount picture produced by Robert Evans. Yep. Co-starring Marta Keller and also co-starring Fritz Weaver.

[00:19:41] These are all four players slash components that inhabited the world of Marathon Man. Now, both of you guys, I don't know the fascinating now pivot to Bond. Of course, the first Bond connection that comes to mind is we have the great Red Grant here. We've got the great Mr. Shaw leading the charge in this movie.

[00:20:07] Of course, also identifiable as who I still believe to this day is still the greatest physical villain. Sure. Not what I not what I call backroom dispatch villain, physical villain that Bond ever had in the form of Mr. Shaw. The other connection. Did you guys notice as you were watching this picture that no less than the equally great Walter Gattel was in this movie? Okay.

[00:20:37] You did notice that. Of course. Yeah. We had a From Russia with Love reunion. Yes, exactly. We had a From Russia with Love reunion. And of course, Gattel gracing. Yes. Gracing the world of Bond in several pictures as the Russian PM. And with a very interesting role, a very interesting supporting role here as sort of like, let's say, Shaw's Washington, D.C. liaison who brings him up to speed with everything having to do

[00:21:04] with, you know, the Dahlia Iyad character, the Marta Keller character and all of that. Um, and then the Hitchcock connection. And then we'll, we'll move on to first impressions. This is the one I find the most fascinating. I think of the three, because it's the most, um, I think it's the most intimate of all of them. So three things. Number one, this movie is co-written. Let me backpedal.

[00:21:33] I think I mentioned when we discussed probably the first time we got together with the chairman. Yeah. Who could ever forget the chairman? Yeah. Right. Right. I think it was there where I first mentioned to you guys, because the notion of discussing the genre, the spy genre as a whole, and the idea of favorites and bests, I think that's when it first came up. And I indicated to you guys back then that, as you both know from our last show together, Marathon Man is my all time favorite spy film.

[00:22:02] But I also indicated that I believe the greatest spy film ever made is Hitchcock's North by Northwest. And so the connection that we have here, the connective tissue, as it were, between Hitchcock and this movie is that Ernest Lehman, who wrote the screenplay for North by Northwest, is one of the gentlemen who adapted this screenplay. Yep. For Black Sunday. Yes.

[00:22:29] Now, the other connection is that the great Bruce Dern, we'll talk about him later, because he is beyond powerful in this movie. Dern was a very close Hitchcock player throughout his career. Hitchcock was very fond of Dern, not only using him in a couple of episodes of the Alfred Hitchcock Hour,

[00:22:53] two of the best episodes of that show, but also using him in his great late masterpiece, Marnie, with Connery, another Bond connection, Connery and Tippi Hedren, but also using him in what was his final film, Hitchcock's final film, that being Family Plot, which, by the way, gents, was also written by Ernest Lehman. Yep. And I've got that note. Yeah.

[00:23:23] Yes. And then last thing, last little Hitchcock-related cameo, and then we'll drop to another subject. Frankenheimer, very amusingly, I don't know if either of you caught it, but it's very funny when it comes. Frankenheimer pulled a Hitchcock with this one in that he gave himself a director's cameo in that, I think, rather hysterical scene when the shit really starts to boil at the end of the film and the chase is happening through the stadium.

[00:23:53] He plays the director of the show inside the CBS mobile station, who basically, when Shaw is kind of like ranting and raving, he storms in there and Frankenheimer turns around and says, get him out of here! And it's hysterical because it is kind of like a blink and you'll miss it type thing. But on the other hand, if you're familiar with Mr. Frankenheimer, you know what he looks like.

[00:24:22] And Frankenheimer was kind of interesting. This is a really irrelevant aside, but I'll just say it. Because Frankenheimer is a top five director of mine. I have his biography. I know his life. I have three books on the man. Very interesting because he was one of those directors who, when you look at him, he actually looks more like a leading man actor than he does a film director. I mean, very much so. Very striking looking guy.

[00:24:48] And so if you know what he looks like when that scene comes, it is a very fast cameo, but he's there and it was certainly a very amusing moment in what was ultimately, as you guys know, an extremely intense climax. But yeah, there you go. My first impressions. Well, as I say, I don't have anything to add, but Cam, had you ever seen this before? No, this was a first time watch for me. It was one I'd heard about, but just had, for whatever reason, never actually clicked play on.

[00:25:17] It actually goes well with the SpyHards WhatsApp group, who I messaged earlier saying I was watching this. And most people have said, yes, I know it exists, but I just hadn't gotten around to it yet. Interesting, interesting. Fascinating. Yeah, I was actually, after watching the movie, I was genuinely shocked. It's not noisier in terms of its awareness. Yeah, it's not one of those things you go on Twitter and everyone's like, underrated films of the 70s. Right. And point to that, it's never mentioned.

[00:25:46] Yeah, and yet, like, you know, that was one of the movies that Christopher Nolan showed the cast and crew of The Dark Knight before they made that movie as something of a vibe setter. That's right. And Tarantino riffed off of this for Kill Bill. Yes, he did. Yes. Yes, he did. It's impossible for me now not to watch The Dark Knight Rises and watch the football game sequence in that movie and also the entire Batman in the Bat hooking the bomb and trying to lift it out over the city, over the water. Yep.

[00:26:16] And that's all taken from this movie. I mean, do you gentlemen see here, before we begin really sort of like analytically dissecting this thing for like favorites and least favorites, do you see how this man, being Frankenheimer, with just one film, one film of his extraordinary body of work, managed to make something that was so deeply influential to filmmakers that came after him? I mean, I find it staggering. Yeah, definitely. It's staggering.

[00:26:46] Yeah, I mean, without getting too much into my thoughts, it reminded me, though, a lot of like, I remember watching Frankenheimer's Grand Prix and that sense of scale and almost like documentary-like feeling. It's like he's bringing that sort of massive, you could call it like muscular filmmaking to a thriller here. Right. A hundred percent. Well, then I guess the next step is to get behind the scenes.

[00:27:11] I mean, we've already had some of it laid out for us by yourself, Steve, but Cam, I'm sure you have a few more stories up your sleeve. Yes, this is, of course, based on the debut novel by Tennessee-born writer Thomas Harris, who is best known for creating the character of Hannibal Lecter and writing several of those novels. But it was Black Sunday that put him on the map.

[00:27:31] And the book was inspired by the famous incident in 1972 when a Palestinian militant group called Black September murdered a number of athletes at the 72 Munich Olympics. And that, you know, really took the world just by complete shock. Steven Spielberg would cover that in the movie Munich, which we'll tackle further down the road. But that was sort of the kind of the birth, the origin story, as it were, for where Black Sunday came from.

[00:28:00] And those rights to that book were snapped up very quickly by Robert Evans, who, as Steve mentioned, you know, was the former Paramount head of production, who at that time had made movies like Rosemary's Baby, The Godfather films, Chinatown, incredibly successful. And then as an independent producer, this was his follow-up to Marathon Man. So he was off and running. And you have, like, a real merging of talents because John Frankenheimer, we've talked about him before when we tackled Ronan, a great film.

[00:28:30] New York born and started out in 1950s TV. Notably, this credit made me kind of smile. He was a floor manager for 58 episodes of Rod Brown of the Rocket Rangers. Yeah. A show that lost the time but sounds amazing. And made his big sort of theatrical debut with the 1957 teen drama, The Young Stranger. But it's where he, like, I think, meets Burt Lancaster, where they start working together, that that starts to open the door.

[00:29:00] He does the 1961 film, The Young Savages. And more notably, the following year, The Birdman of Alcatraz, which is a sort of biography film set in prison starring Lancaster. Great film. And that is when Frankenheimer is off to the races. You get Manchurian Candidate, Seven Days in May, The Train, Seconds, Grand Prix. This movie was his follow-up to The French Connection 2.

[00:29:26] But he is known as a go-to, like, get this guy if you want to make a great political thriller. I mean, I just want to backtrack to calling him Frankenheimer. That's a much better name. That's his action name. You thought you could steamroll past that one, Cam, didn't you? I did, I did. I heard it all. I heard it all. He was very Frexy. Oh. Call back. We're bringing back Frexy. I like that. All right. Okay.

[00:29:51] Let me jump into what you just said, Cam, because I think that there's a very interesting connection to be made. It's not accidental that he happened to be chosen. And he happened to have been first on the list for Evans and Paramount when this picture was greenlit and ultimately decided that we're going to make it a reality.

[00:30:13] However, what's most important to recognize in Frankenheimer's entire body of work is that the spy genre, as it were, not only was it never unfamiliar territory to him, but if you look carefully at the entire body of work and you examine the pictures individually or as a whole, he really seemed to gravitate towards this genre.

[00:30:37] And if you look closely, basically his contributions comprise a hand, right? There are five. Five. So there are two that I believe are much more spy-centric. The spy-centric films would be Manchurian Candidate and Ronan. Yeah. Then there are two others that I feel are not spy-centric. They're what I refer to as being more spy-adjacent.

[00:31:03] And that would be something like Seven Days in May and the underrated Michael Caine 80s film The Holcroft Covenant. Mm-hmm. That's four. Then you have Black Sunday, which makes five. The reason, though, I think Black Sunday is, I'm not going to say the best, but it is far and away to me the most fascinating of the five, is because it feels the most like a true hybrid piece. Mm-hmm. Why hybrid piece?

[00:31:31] Because we have elements, Cam, to your point earlier, of very, very intense political thriller. Yep. However, we also get, I'm not going to say Bondian action, but it is definitely a spy-themed actioner. A hundred percent.

[00:31:50] Then, what I love, because I always gravitate to hybrid pieces of any sort, we get a sense of the great 70s disaster cinema at the end. Big time.

[00:32:03] So, those all-star, you know, so those all-star 70s disaster pictures that many of us know and love, such as Poseidon Adventure, Towering Inferno, Earthquake, we definitely have a little bit of that in this climax of Black Sunday, which some people might say, critically speaking, is doing everything, throwing everything in there but the kitchen sink.

[00:32:28] But you know what? Given the circumstances of this narrative, I actually think it works brilliantly. And I don't think there was any other way to sort of address the individual plot mechanics and character strands without making the climax as scale-driven and as borderline outlandish as it becomes. But I mean that in the best possible way.

[00:32:56] Yeah, I mean, the disaster movie DNA was all over that late 70s. Like, you know, you look at Superman as well. Like, Superman isn't drawing from superhero movies because those don't really exist yet, but it is looking at disaster movies for that sort of influence. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned Ernest Lehman, one of the screenwriters on the film. There was three. This was kind of like a pileup of great talent behind the scenes writing this film. Oh, a hundred percent.

[00:33:25] Lehman, yeah, New York-born, screenwriting legend, six-time Oscar nominee, later got an honorary award, but started out modestly with a 1948 comedy called The Inside Story. But then, my God, you look at the guy's filmography, you get Sabrina, The King and I, The Sweet Smell of Success, North by Northwest, West Side Story, The Sound of Music, Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf, and many more. This movie for him was the follow-up, actually, to Alfred Hitchcock's The Family Plot.

[00:33:54] So Hitchcock, basically the sun set on him with The Family Plot. Yes. And you get this sort of birth going on with newer 70s espionage films like Marathon Man and this. So that's a really interesting connection, the way that Lehman kind of bridges the classic to the new.

[00:34:09] You also have another writer, Kenneth Ross, who started out, one of his plays was adapted for Danish TV in 67, but he co-wrote the 1972 Franco Zeffirelli religious drama, Brother, Son, Sister, Moon, and followed that up with, oh, I don't know, The Day of the Jackal, The Odessa File, and Black Sunday. Again, pretty strong. Yeah. Yeah. It's strong pedigree. Very strong pedigree.

[00:34:35] And you get that procedural sense of The Day of the Jackal and this. A hundred percent. Oh, yes. That's another element of the narrative, the clockwork precision. The clockwork precision of the plotting in this is really, it's second to none.

[00:34:52] And the domino chips fall where they do because they must sometimes in manners that are a little bit more fleeting and other times in ways that are very disturbing, such as with the Stephen Keats character and what happens to him. But we'll get to all that. Yeah. Yeah. And then we'll get to all the other characters. And then we'll get to all the other characters. And the other writer, Ivan Moffat, British screenwriter and producer. Yes.

[00:35:17] And started out actually with World War II films, including working on George Stevens footage that he shot overseas during World War II. And his kind of breakthrough was co-writing the 1956 Ava Gardner India set adventure, Bawani Junction. Then he would go on and co-write George Stevens's Oscar nominated epic, Giant, which was a pardon the pun, but a massive movie for that time. I bet Bawani Junction has aged well.

[00:35:46] Um, I would imagine it is aged pretty poorly, but I will say Ava Gardner is not playing an Indian woman. Oh, it's, oh, it's incredibly dated. Yeah. It's incredibly dated. And it's ironic because the way you mentioned that, Cam, those two writing credits of Moffat's, it's interesting to note that he simultaneously in the same year, that being 56, had one of the most horrendously dated films of the decade.

[00:36:12] Coupled with what I think is one of the 10 best films of the decade, that being Giant. So it's a, yeah, it's a curious pair. It's a curious pair that he penned in the same year. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you look at his post-Giant output and like, you have like the, you know, Men on a Mission Action or the Heroes of Telemark with Kirk Douglas. There's a couple of things that are fun along the way, but he never really hit that level of success he had with Giant.

[00:36:39] And this was his follow-up to writing the English adaptation for 1973's Hitler, The Last 10 Days, starring Alec Guinness, which was an Italian production that he basically created the English language version for. Mm-hmm. A lot of, a lot of bunkers, I imagine. A lot of bunkers. You also got Largo. Adolfo Celli is in that movie. So. Hey. Yeah. Yeah, there he is. Another Bond connection, right? Yeah.

[00:37:07] One of the things that was interesting to me about this movie is, because as, I watched the movie before I did my notes. Is that atypical for you? Yeah, I often do the notes first. Time depending. Okay. Um, but, um, this movie, I expected as I watched it to, like, be like, okay, well, I'm going to be digging through countless archives of information about the making of Black Sunday, because how could I not? Looking at how ambitious it is on screen. And, um, it's really not the case.

[00:37:35] People do not really cover, like, the production of this movie in any real in-depth, serious way. They talk about the NFL filming. They could only film during the last half hour of the NFL game, um, the big Super Bowl. But, I mean, they don't really talk about much else other than how they got the blimp, which was that Frankenheimer had a relationship with the Goodyear people from doing Grand Prix. And how he did have a backup plan.

[00:37:59] If they'd said no, he was going to get a German blimp and paint it to approximate the Goodyear blimp at a, you know, Super Bowl. But, I expected pages and pages and pages of breakdown, just in terms of some of the set pieces. You know, we'll talk about, like, I'm sure the big shootout in Florida and things like that. You know, sequences that seem grand scale and the kind of thing that would inspire people like Michael Mann or Christopher Nolan in the future. But, woefully underrepresented when it comes to research on the film.

[00:38:29] Well, it feels like one of those ones that we're stumbling upon that not many people know about. It's almost like a secret in a way. Because, you know, as you say, there's not a lot of trivia. IMDb is basically empty. Wikipedia is basically empty. And yet you look at the cast and the production team and you think this should be something that people are talking about. Whether it's good or it's bad. I'm not swinging my hammer on either side of that yet. But, like, it just should be something that's in the conversation. Another 1970s film. But, it isn't. And we're here to correct that.

[00:39:00] Yeah. And we'll note John Williams did the score for this movie. This was the score that he released right before Star Wars and Close Encounters that same year. It's a nice double whammy. I want to ask you both a question. If we can just kind of, like, veer off the road just for a split second here. Because you, Cam, mentioned John Williams. That four-note motif that graces this movie that is absolutely unforgettable after you hear it.

[00:39:29] Did you guys by any chance? And here's the thing. When you watch Williams in the behind-the-scenes making of the Jaws documentary, he goes on and on. Not only about how much he loved that particular film, working on Jaws. But how much he loved the Quint character. The Shaw character. Now, was it just me? Or in hearing this four-note motif that graces Black Sunday periodically.

[00:39:57] But seems to become sort of a signature character theme for Shaw. Did it not remind you a little bit of the Jaws score? For some reason, it does to me. I don't know. Maybe those are just my ears. No, no. It did jump out to me as well. I don't know that I quite connected it as closely with, like, Quint and Jaws. But I did connect it more with, like, John Williams coming out of the success of Jaws. Yeah.

[00:40:26] Looking at a movie like this, which is grand and operatic in so many ways. And saying, no, no. We need to keep this simple. And simple will be more effective. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Without a doubt.

[00:40:36] No, I think that where I'm going with what my observation was and the way my ears sort of perceive this is just simply the fact that I feel that this arching, overriding theme that dominates, musical theme that is, musical cue, that dominates Black Sunday throughout the proceedings, seems to me like the theme that is sort of like following, expanding, and amplifying the Kabakov character, the Shaw character.

[00:41:07] As the picture sort of rolls along. In other words, I start to relate the film, especially as we barrel through the climax, as becoming as much Shaw's theme as it is the picture's theme. Do you follow what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I agree with that. Yeah, that does make sense. I thought the inclusion of Fair Spanish Lady was a bit of a weird choice. Yeah. When Bruce Dern sang that, right in the climax, I was like, you know?

[00:41:36] As he was flying that blimp in, he's just like, the bomb, the Hiroshima bomb. I was like, oh, okay. Black eyes, like a doll's eyes. There you go. So the budget for this movie was $8 million. Domestically, it did 15.8. International numbers, I am not sure. Could not find them anywhere. But they did consider this movie a bit of a disappointment. Yes, they did.

[00:42:04] Frankenheimer blamed it on one year before a movie had come out that I'd actually never heard of. A Charlton Heston film called Two Minute Warning. Right. Yeah, about a terrorist attack at a football game that underperformed, and Frankenheimer felt like kind of the stink of that movie affected his movie. There is something to be said for that, gents. He covers it.

[00:42:27] But I can tell with a certain degree of, dare I say, acrimony in the biography, in the book that I have, he doesn't seem to want to discuss it much. But to your point, Cam, that is exactly what it's about. And having seen Two Minute Warning, that is really more of a proper all-star 70s disaster movie.

[00:42:54] And as you both know, now having seen Black Sunday, Black Sunday is not that. I only said that Black Sunday has elements of the 70s disaster picture. Nothing more. It is not a full-blown disaster picture. That is the difference. But as you say, the wafting stench, almost like farts, that was left behind from Two Minute Warning,

[00:43:20] did something to kind of permeate what could have been, I think, the greater success of Black Sunday. Do you know what I'm saying? No, 100%. It's that, like, you know, you think of, like, when they have, like, two Snow White movies come out at a time, or two asteroid-slash-comet movies in a year, two volcano films. And it's like, usually one movie seems to be affected by the other. So that makes sense.

[00:43:47] It's ironic you mention the word stink as well, because two-minute warning is what I tell people in my house after I've been to the bathroom. Oh, Jesus. I'm just whacker-whacker this week. Apparently that's just all I'm here for. The top three for the year. Number one was, of course, Star Wars, A New Hope. Number two was Close Encounters of the Third Kind. And number three was Saturday Night Fever. Number four, I'll note, was The Spy Who Loved Me. Oh. And the only other note I had on this movie was actually Bruce Dern talked about it later in life.

[00:44:16] He's still around, but he was doing interviews much later down the road. And said he, like, really recognized how skillfully the movie was made, but he kind of wishes he'd never done it. Because he felt it was sort of a manual for would-be terrorists. And he, just with his political beliefs, was like, I don't know that I feel great about being in this movie. I understand. I understand. Oh, I totally get that. I understand exactly what he says. You know what, gents?

[00:44:43] I think we would probably be remiss whether it's in the favorite section or the not favorite section if we didn't talk about what I call the weapons test sequence. Oh, yeah. That is a terrifying sequence. It is terrifying.

[00:44:59] I find it almost horror film terrifying because of the way there is something almost manual-like in the manner in which we're seeing this weapon of mass destruction be both assembled, examined, ultimately utilized on a completely innocent person who just gets fucked inside that airplane hangar.

[00:45:27] But hearing, I didn't know that, Cam, but hearing that Dern felt that way later in life, from a certain perspective, I get exactly what he means. One only need examine that sequence, the weapons test sequence, to understand what he's talking about. Mm-hmm. Yeah, like, it's very, like, procedural. It's very methodical. Oh, yeah. It's not played as a, you know, look at these scary bad guys up to scary things. It's like...

[00:45:52] Or from the other perspective, look at Fourth Protocol six years later, five years later, where they do an arming a nuclear warhead scene where it's all about, like, sexual innuendo in a sense. And it's, like, heated and loving. And it just... The lighting. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's got that almost, like, a Red Shoe Diaries lighting or something like that where they're making that bomb. Right. Because here, it's almost, like, documentary-like realism in a sequence like that. The weapon itself is not the kind of film prop that's made to look, you know, kind of sexy on screen.

[00:46:21] It looks kind of janky. No, not at all. You look at it going, like, what is that? Exactly. And, you know, when you see what it actually does, it's a scene that's both beautiful and horrifying. When they're walking in and seeing all the holes... ...all through the walls. I was like, how did they shoot this? Did some poor, like, PA have to sit there all night with, like, a drill poking holes in that wall? Probably. Because it looks incredible. But at the same time, you just think of, like, the ramifications of that weapon where they want to set it off at the Super Bowl. I mean, it's horrifying.

[00:46:51] I mean, there is a moment, a respite of comedy within the scene if you freeze frame, I should say, where the bomb goes off. Because you do get to see the dummy that has all the holes put in it that's quite a dummy. The dummy for all of, like, one second. Yes. But, like, it does kind of make you go... Oh, yeah. Although, I noticed, though, like, when they show violence on screen in this, they do it in a way where it feels almost like shock horror movie-like. They'll have a very quick shot. It's quick. Very much so.

[00:47:20] To that guy. Or when the bomb goes off in the telephone with the ship captain. Where it's, like, split second, but it's done in a way that would have had the impact of something almost like The Exorcist. It's like a shock effect.

[00:47:35] The shock effect of an Italian giallo, like you're watching a Dario Argento movie or a Fulci movie, whatever your favorite type of Italian giallo or Italian horror film happens to be, where the visceral punch of the moment of violence in question hits you like a fist in the face. But then it's over. Truth be told, Frankenheimer, for his entire body of work, was not a proponent of graphic violence. He was not a lingerer of violence in his pictures.

[00:48:05] He was more about, as you alluded to, Cam, presenting it to you in a more abstract fashion. So you kind of intuitively think you saw a certain something, but then you kind of have to look again because the one thing he never did is linger on moments of, you know, extreme savagery. That was never his bed. Yeah, and compare that to, like, I don't know, is it three years later, four years later, Scanners?

[00:48:33] Cronenberg has the head of the load and it just stays on the shot. Oh, yeah. Just very gory. Yeah, and you'll have, like, filmmakers like Verhoeven as well picking up a little bit later down the road as well who are going to go with that big kind of visceral gore kind of element to their filmmaking. Yeah, 100%. Any more behind the scenes, Cam, or is that you wrapped up? That's it. Well, then, you know, we've gone through the six days. We're on our seventh. Sunday is here. The big day. The big game. The superb owl.

[00:49:02] Let's talk about Black Sunday. And, Steve, you've brought it to us almost as a present. I probably shouldn't open it because I might get hit with some nails. But let's talk about the film. And let's talk about, you spoke about your initial reaction to it and how maybe it's changed over the years. But now, looking at it in 2026, what do you think of Black Sunday?

[00:49:21] I think that it's in many ways still an archetypal Frankenheimer movie while at the same time being a very singularly distinctive film in his body of work that really kind of sort of breaks the mold. I think that what needs to be considered most interestingly in this film, because it is a genre piece and it does delve deeply into spy mechanics and whatnot, is that we have.

[00:49:51] And I think it's hard to really analyze this character without getting into very severe gray areas. But there's something about the Brewster and character, right? That, for whatever reason, sticks with me as I watch this movie. I will get a little personal with you, gents. Something that I haven't done, that I didn't do on the first two shows. All right. Okay. So my dad, my dad was a veteran. Right.

[00:50:20] So my dad fought in Korea. He was decorated in Korea. He was in the Air Force. He was a radio operator. And there was something about what he used to tell me, because I came into my dad's life later because he was quite a bit older when he had me. But he told me a lot of the stories. And he told me about reception.

[00:50:47] Don't worry, I'm coming back to Black Sunday because it is very connected. He told me about the reception of veterans upon coming back and how, you know, he felt some of that from a negative standpoint. Some of it was there was more positive reception depending on the circle in which he happened to be navigating. But the one thing I can say to you is that I don't think that this movie has the emotional undercurrent.

[00:51:16] And spy films often don't have that because there's a coldness about them for the most part. But that's mostly because of plot mechanics. But this has an emotional undercurrent that really allows you to feel the distress and the trauma and the PTSD very severe with the Dern character.

[00:51:39] So this broken veteran who also, because he's broken, is a very manipulated man by the Dahlia character, Mark Keller's character. But it's unique. It's unique to the genre. It's unique to the story. Certainly it's unique within.

[00:51:59] However, it is not unique within the Frankenheimer body of work because the character, the Michael Lander character that Dern plays so brilliantly is, you know, he's sort of a direct. Think about this, you guys, because you love this other movie, too. Think about this now.

[00:52:20] Doesn't he feel in very large part almost like a direct kind of like a thematic descendant of the brainwashed Lawrence Harvey and Manchurian candidate? Yeah. To me, he does. Yeah. To me, he does. And and. You know, watching him break down almost like a.

[00:52:44] Almost like a cowering child towards the end of the film when Mark Keller, who is so by contrast, as you both know, both having seen the film now, so insidiously unrepentant in her evil. Right. Says to herself in that moment. All right. I've got him now. I've got him now. He's weak. He's vulnerable. I have to kind of prey on that. I have to play into that.

[00:53:12] And this is what sort of gets him basically firmly aligned with her so that they're on the same page. So that even though it kind of looks at the 90 percent mark of the film, that the plan has basically kind of like dissolved into a total shit show. Her whole. As you guys know, her whole modus operandi is fuck all of that. I'm going forward with this. I don't care what it looks like on the peripheral. We're going forward.

[00:53:41] And whatever the quote unquote collateral damages, I don't care. Dern even says to her, as you guys recall throughout the film, Dern even says to her, listen, you do know that the likelihood of you and I making it out of this, we're not going to make it. We're not going to make it. We're going. Yeah. All of that, I think watching it to your point, Scott, asking me about impressions of the film today.

[00:54:10] The impressions are one of a very disturbing picture that ultimately is delving as much into the psychosis of these characters who normally are cardboard cutout, you know, stick figures in pictures of this nature.

[00:54:29] But because of the fact that the Dern character has that deep seated military based trauma paired with the maniacal fanatical extremism of the Mark Keller character, I think for me is ultimately upon seeing it again. And it's one. Listen, you guys, I didn't accidentally recommend this film for us to review.

[00:54:54] I did it very much on purpose because, you know, it's a film I hold dearly in, you know, my past childhood picture. You know, I have it in my Blu-ray collection. I watch it once a year. It is one that I have in my yearly rotation. And I just feel that now, almost 50 years later, the significance that the picture has for me, especially now that my dad is no longer with us and actually was a veteran.

[00:55:24] And he kind of not to this extent, thank God, but he just had some, you know, there were some bitter moments coming home. But at the same time, he was always a very, he was always a resourceful, powerful man who actually ended up doing extremely well for himself and gave my mother and I an extremely good life.

[00:55:48] But at the end of the day, perhaps now you guys understand why for me this was not just a quote unquote entertainment. There was something on the peripheries of the film. There was something strangely, I don't want to say personal about it, but it just, I felt deeper for this film than I would normally a film of this genre. Right. Like it had a connective point for you. That makes a lot of sense. Yes, exactly. Yeah. That's exactly right.

[00:56:15] And it speaks a little bit to the filmmaking at this time too, where there was so much examination of Vietnam vets coming home. Because you had, well, the movie Coming Home, you have Taxi Driver. You had the movie Coming Home, exactly. Right. Yeah. You have a few years down the road, you're going to have The Deer Hunter. You're going to have First Blood. This was a very common topic and one that was probably spoken about a lot just in the news at this point too. It was a hot button topic to say the least.

[00:56:42] And the interesting thing about it is that although delving into those particular plot points of the picture, which made, which I think heightens the narrative, made it archetypal Frankenheimer.

[00:56:56] The reason why I think it also becomes a singularly distinctive film amidst his entire body of work is because there is also this focus on kind of what we were talking about a few minutes ago, this focus on the perpetrator over the hero.

[00:57:18] You know, instead of just focusing on the heroes, the movie spends an enormous amount of time and almost inordinate amount of time detailing this sort of this psychological instability and the motivations of Dern and Keller.

[00:57:35] So as an audience, did you guys notice that we're sort of for a time we're forced into being sort of like uncomfortably close with these radicals? Which again, which again attributes what I call the disturbing factor of this picture, which is why I say it's a picture that shouldn't be taken lightly.

[00:57:57] And it's also a picture that is far from being run of the mill or conventionally standard where the spy genre is concerned. I think one thing I'm taking away from what you're saying, Steve, apart from the sort of personal element to it, is just how impactful this film is to you.

[00:58:17] And I'm glad you sort of picked it as like the end of your trilogy, in a sense, before we move on to the next trilogy, because I feel like much as the other two films were good films and have resonance in their own ways. This one certainly has a more powerful resonance for you. I get the impression. There's no question about that. And, you know, the fact of the matter is, is that I don't know.

[00:58:40] You know, one thing that you gentlemen can't see behind me here is that besides kind of like a section of my Blu-ray collection, what I keep above it in an encased glass partition, as it were, is I keep my dad's flag.

[00:59:03] Normally speaking, you know, when a service person passes, they very ceremoniously and ritualistically give the ones that are left behind, they wrap the flag and they give it to you. And so I have that here. And so I think this is going to be such a personal segment. That's OK.

[00:59:30] Anyway, but but yes, it is true. And the resonance that it has, Scott, for me, from a personal standpoint, is precisely why I pinpointed to it for us to dissect and analyze. To your point, also correctly, I might add, probably deliberately on my part, because it was the end of this trilogy. So, yeah, I don't think that was accidental.

[00:59:58] And, you know, I'll just maybe highlight one more thing that makes it special to me before we move on to favorite moments. And that is that here there is a nuanced ambiguity to Shaw's Mossad agent. You know, the movie is kind of daring to show us the complexity behind the terrorism. But it sort of refuses.

[01:00:28] Think about this now. It refuses to paint the situation with simple black and white good versus evil terminology. Instead, it looks at both sides of the question, which, again, makes it ominous, but also makes it. I don't know. It just makes it a highlight.

[01:00:49] I think that perhaps also it's because we have a director of Frankenheimer's deep, deep intelligence who would never just make a genre picture, who would never just make a run of the mill action or as it were without actually trying to say something that could, in fact, resonate with the audience and also simultaneously last. Decades down the road. And I think this picture does.

[01:01:19] I think I'll I'll wade in with my thoughts. And I mean, I've made a lot of jokes in the last 45 minutes. And I'm just going to say, like, for everyone who's made it this far apart that I'm going to be serious for a second. I know. Shocking. But I was a bit uncomfortable when this film started. Yeah. There's a few there's a few conversations that I had in this film that are still hot button topics today that I don't really want to wade into.

[01:01:46] I'm not ideologically inclined and nor is the show. Yeah. And so when that was being bandied about, I was like, oh, we're walking into murky territory here. And then I think I was sort of in a way pleased that the film decided that it wants to get on with its own plot instead of sort of really dealing with all of that. Because you could spend two and a half hours talking about ideology. And I'm sure there is a film for that. The Little Drummer Girl does a lot of that, unfortunately.

[01:02:16] I agree. Well, that's more just the film being unfortunately boring. I agree with that, too. Yeah. What I was sort of pleasantly surprised by, because as I said, I was feeling uncomfortable in the first sort of 45 minutes. By the end, I actually stopped writing notes because I was so pulled into the picture. A hundred percent. Specifically the last 45 minutes. As soon as they turn up at the football pitch, football field. So we'll go with Americans.

[01:02:41] As soon as the film turns up at the football field, it just seems to just switch to another. Like it turns it up to 11 if you want to go to the Spinal Tap reference. Right. We literally go into that. This is where the disaster flick comes in. And I'm famously a big fan of disaster flick. Yeah. So that's what I'm pretty pulled in. Before that, I mean, you do get some good segments like the shootout and stuff like that. But it's been a while since the film has basically stunned me into stopping writing. And that means something to me.

[01:03:10] And when I saw the runtime of this, I was like, two and a half hours. Come on, please. Please. No. And I think I blinked and it finished. Yeah. Yeah. So like in terms of like, do I like it? Yeah. I really enjoyed it. And I'm glad that the film sort of gave us such a thrilling 45 minutes at the end as well. But that's sort of my top line review. Well, I have a question. Like, how did you feel about the lead up to the big game?

[01:03:39] I feel like it wasn't quite as captivating as some of the other moments when you get to the game. There are moments where, like I said, like the shootout, the chase and the shootout is pretty well put together. It's incredible. Yeah. And there is a couple of other scenes leading into it. But I think that the first hour or so is really just a setup. Like you think of how Mission Impossible Final Reckoning did it. That first hour setup, the other two hours of payoff.

[01:04:06] This didn't quite do that because it actually gave you some interesting things to watch during the first hour as well. But, like, I think what really stood out to me, and I'll get into it in likes, is some of the performances I think were just absolutely breathtaking. I don't think I've seen anything quite like it on this show so far. But I'll come back to that in likes. But, yeah, like I enjoyed the first bit, but definitely not as much as the final act. Yeah. I think I sit exactly where you do, frankly.

[01:04:32] What I found was, like, the first hour and a bit or so before the game stuff really kicks on and you have a sense of, like, where the movie's going. It's slow burn, but it does reward you because, you know, you're kind of watching the pieces come together. You're watching this kind of dance between, you know, the two terrorist characters and, like, how does their dynamic work? What is this leading to?

[01:04:57] And what I appreciated was, though, like, Frankenheimer recognizes that, hey, I need the time here. I need the time to kind of lay out this tapestry, but I'm going to reward you throughout. And I'm going to give you moments because we've talked about, you know, those moments of violence or, you know, the big shootout in Florida is incredible stuff. Like, it looks like, frankly, you're just watching documentary footage of a horrifying event happening.

[01:05:22] It doesn't feel like, quote-unquote, movie making in the same way that another filmmaker would have shot that sequence. But, like, I think of a scene, like, in the hospital when Marta Keller character goes undercover as, like, a nurse. The tension they build about whether she'll get into Robert Shaw's room. His, you know, partner coming and basically having to talk her away from the door. It's not big, over-the-top stuff.

[01:05:48] It feels like that classic 1970s filmmaking where you're, like, this feels like two people in a hallway having a, like, normal conversation you might see at a real hospital. And the way that that pays off with another elevator sequence, which is a staple of spy movies. We've tackled a few elevator sequences. But here, the way that, like, they walk in, the door's closed, and instantly, like, the doors open up and she walks back out. Like, it's not flashy. It's not crazy, over-the-top stuff.

[01:06:18] But it just is, like, this gut-punch sequence that you go, like, this is what Frankenheimer is doing so brilliantly is he's taking this long procedural slow burn stuff, but he's punctuating it endlessly with kind of those moments. Every time someone might feel like, oh, I'm getting a bit sleepy here. Boom. You just, something just jolts you back up. And I feel like... Or literally, boom. Yeah, that too. Yeah, especially with, like, the weapons test. Yeah. And so, like, I was getting frustrated early on. I'll admit it.

[01:06:48] Like, maybe the first half hour, I was sitting there going, like, oh, my God. Like, Robert Shaw seems like he's kind of asleep here. This is not... I mean, this is near the end of Robert Shaw's career. He's going to do the deep Force 10 from Navarone and then... Avalanche Express. Avalanche Express. Avalanche Express. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that's the end for him. And so this does feel very much like latter-day Robert Shaw, where he's having a lot of health problems. Oh, yeah. A lot of personal problems. And you're not necessarily getting the energy.

[01:07:15] But at the same time, it's kind of like the tapestry going on around him. The world that Frankenheimer has created around him is what really sucks you in more so. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think, like, the big elephant in the room for me was the fact that the blimp has a giant nipple on the front. It's a good year indeed. Oh! Well, let's get over to things we like. Favorite moments, all that shtick.

[01:07:44] So I'm actually just going to start off because it was sort of part of my life. I didn't quite finish my thought. I think Bruce Dern knocks it out of the park. Specifically the scene where he's basically talking to Marta Keller at the, like, fireplace. And just monologuing at her for about four minutes where he's just screaming in her face. And not in, like, a bad way. He's clearly having a mental health crisis at the time. Yeah. But, like, you just think that is such a raw performance. Such a vulnerable performance.

[01:08:13] And it comes out of basically nowhere because you don't really see him doing too much of that. Apart from when you first meet him in the house where he's a little bit schizophrenic. That's really, like, him mentally offloading in that scene. And you just think, well, wow. That's one of those moments. Yes, I'll talk about the Super Bowl. Yes, I'll talk about the shootout. But in terms of drama, in terms of character, that's probably the most powerful moment in the film. It's a little bit, you know, I was mentioning First Blood earlier.

[01:08:40] It's a little bit like Rambo's big breakdown over the shoeshine box bomb at the end of First Blood. Where it's like, you've seen this character operate in a certain mode throughout the film. And then it's just like, everything comes out in, like, a complete moment of grief. And here you get this, who is taking the photograph speech from, you know, from Bruce Dern. And the character is someone who, when I was introduced, I was, like, writing in my notes, like, madman of the Goodyear blimp crew.

[01:09:09] And it's like, you know, they kind of play him as, like, this kind of madcap guy behind the wheel. Look at that guy at the, you know, Goodyear blimp. Those crazy, you know, guys at the wheel there. And then it's like, Bruce Dern is someone who I've always found interesting, especially in his older films. Where there's something almost, like, cartoonish about him. Like, just the way he comes across on screen. It's a little bit, like, exaggerated. In the way you could see someone like Jim Carrey, if he was more of a dramatic actor, tapping into.

[01:09:33] But then it's like, when you get a scene where he has a complete meltdown on screen, you're like, this is why you hire Bruce Dern. There's something about his ability to just grab you by the throat with a moment like that. And you feel so terrible for this guy. And even though, like, in a sense he's tough to pin down through the movie. Because it's very easy to write him down as, he's a character who's lost his mind. Which is, you know, they weren't necessarily looking at them with the level of psychological detail they would in 2026.

[01:10:03] If they're writing this film. And they'll write them even more specific in decades to come. At this point, they're like, well, this guy's a little, you know, off his rocker. But I find what they never lose sight of is the humanity of him. And especially in a sequence like that. It's something where they pull into focus. No, like, this is a guy who carries a lot of pain. And we need to feel bad for him. And they're not demonizing people who've come back from Vietnam. And are going through a lot of problems. Which they easily could have. Like, the movie could have been interpreted that way.

[01:10:33] And they also would usually give far more time to the Marta Keller character. Yeah. Like, that's the lead antagonist of the film. Yeah. But because you're sort of meant to be slightly ambiguous about some of her motivations of really what's driving her. Ideologically, you know what's driving her. But some of the actual, like, history of what's driving her. Never really digs into that all that much. Whereas him, you get the whole backstory. And I think that's why he gets more time. Yeah. They give her backstory more in just, like, exposition.

[01:11:03] Yeah. Yes. That was the Walter Gattel sequence we were talking about earlier. When he liaises with him in front of the Washington Monument. It's basically sort of an analytical breakdown of the Dalia Yad dossier. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah. But it is, as you say, Cam, it is just sort of like, it's bits and pieces.

[01:11:25] You don't have the kind of, like, very involved, emotionally weighty backstory that is seated in trauma. The way you do with the Dern character. Hence, as Scott alluded to a few seconds ago, we have the Dern character receiving infinitely more screen time. Despite the fact that he is obviously not the central antagonist. Yeah. Yeah. Like, he's the emotional core.

[01:11:52] And also, I think it's like, in terms of, like, trying to humanize a villain in a sense. I think it's far easier to deal with someone who's dealing with PTSD and sort of put yourself in that position than it is to really put yourself in the position of someone who is just completely ideologically one-way terrorist completely, like, leading a terror campaign. It's hard for people to put themselves in that position. Whereas they could, or they know people that have dealt with PTSD.

[01:12:20] You can kind of understand where his mind is. So that's probably a little bit why he gets more time. Well, it's also, like, I think, smart on the movie's part. And I don't know how much was foresight on their part. But, like, to make these two antagonists very specific as to, you know, they are individuals. Yeah, the Marta Keller character is with the Black September group. And you can see a lot of the anger and that kind of that fury coming out of what had happened at the Munich Olympics.

[01:12:46] But they're also, like, constantly making sure to, like, specify that this is an individual who's making these choices. And she has, like, collaborators you meet along the way. But it's not making, like, kind of these broad political statements that age badly. Like, that's one thing I was a little bit worried, like Scott was, when they were right up front talking about, you know, Palestinian militant groups. I'm like, uh-oh, uh-oh. But I like that the movie then kind of, like, zooms in on the actions of the individuals. Yes.

[01:13:13] And isn't sitting there kind of giving this didactic statement at the end, which is the kind of thing that makes a movie age really badly. Exactly. And this picture does not precisely for that reason. Because Frankenheimer knows that at the end of the day, he's dealing with a narrative that's, let's face it, ultimately, at the end of the day, this is an interpretation of that debut Thomas Harris novel.

[01:13:38] And he was not, as one of the great cinematic practitioners, which I believe he was, he was not interested in ranting, in making a political diatribe, in making an overtly political statement that leaned more in this direction or that direction. No. That's why I say what Black Sunday really is when it's ultimately really thoroughly analyzed frame by frame.

[01:14:06] It is one of the great hybrid pieces of American 70s cinema. Hmm. Hmm. Right. Um, well, Cam, what about you? Something you want to highlight? The finale. The entire sequence at the football stadium. That's the kind of thing where I watch it and I go, how the hell did they do this? Because you have those sequences where it's like Robert Shaw is just on the ground trying to put pieces together while the entire game's going on behind him. And you see all of the crowds around him.

[01:14:35] And it's like, this is the kind of scale we just don't do anymore. They would just CG it all together. Well, just to sell the scale for a second as well. I mean, I've never been to the Orange Bowl. I'm not even sure if the Orange Bowl is still there anymore because America likes to tear down stadiums and rebuild them a lot. But the scale is immense. Cam and I have stood on the edge of the Grand Canyon and looked down into it and gone like, what the hell is this? This doesn't look real. Yeah. When I saw that field in this film, I had a similar sensation.

[01:15:04] It doesn't feel like a real place, but I'm assured it is. Well, I was like thinking to myself, okay, so maybe they have the blimp fly overhead and like everything's thwarted and that's kind of that. Because I'm thinking like just logistically, how do you even make this work in a film? And when you have that sequence where the blimp, like the shadow is cast over the crowd and it starts crashing down, you get the mass panic and people flying all over the place. I was sitting there going, how is this possible?

[01:15:32] And what they did was they convened just under two weeks after the Super Bowl and brought a bunch of extras in and staged all that. But it's seamless. It's the kind of thing that feels like Frankenheimer just had full access to the Super Bowl. And he did have a lot of access to the Super Bowl, more than just about anyone else. So much so that I believe years later, the NFL refused to be involved with the Sum of All Fears, which had a terrorist attack at a football game. They were like, no, we want no part of that anymore.

[01:15:58] In the 70s, they were a little more adventurous, I would say, with giving permissions. But here, I just was like, this makes this movie incredibly special because it's something that you just don't get. I think one of the things that the scale is great, the action is great. Seeing Robert Shaw trying to hook something for five minutes is still tense for some reason, despite if you abstract that, you go, why is that even interesting to watch? He makes it interesting to watch.

[01:16:26] The thing that jumps out to me is, and I use this phrase from time to time on the show, that whole Super Bowl sequence is competency porn. Yeah. It is everyone operating antagonists and protagonists to the best of their abilities, trying to outdo one another. No one is like the stupid, goofy villain. No one is like the bumbling hero. It is just people on a collision course, and you're watching it happen. And that, for me, is exactly the sort of drama I like to watch.

[01:16:56] And I appreciate that it's luck, ultimately, that kind of wins the day. You know, like, Dern succeeds in lighting the fuse. It's just that the fuse is long enough that Robert Shaw is able to hook that thing and drag it out of there on time. If you use it shorter, well, Bruce Dern is victorious. He succeeds. And it just makes that sequence, I think, all the more effective because it isn't, it's not dumbed down. It feels like something that is white knuckle right to the end.

[01:17:23] I mean, I did laugh, though, when I saw kind of the ending of the movie is Robert Shaw swinging away on the cable. And I was like, you need a Bond song to kick in there, like all time high as Robert Shaw is swinging away into the distance. But instead, what you get from a Williams-related musical standpoint is, again, what I was telling you guys earlier, was kind of like an amplification of that triumphant four-note motif,

[01:17:50] such as when the orca is setting out to sea to face the great white. You know, you do hear those strings and those musical strands highlighted when he is swinging about the cable like that in midair. But you know what? It's fine. I have no problem with it. It's a goofy, fun moment of catharsis. Yes, exactly. Where you've been like pent up for 40 minutes and you can go like, oh, we won. We've been talking about Jaws.

[01:18:19] And you think of like the 4th of July celebration with the shark coming in, all the panic, right? This has that sense of attack on Americana. And, you know, you have John Williams doing a lot of musical themes that are very Americana. It just is like, you can see the connection points between these two films, obviously with Robert Shaw as well. Completely agree. Steve, can you give us another thing you like?

[01:18:44] Yeah, well, I'm going to basically go against the grain here because the favorite moments that both of you have highlighted are absolutely logical. They make perfect sense to me. But they are what they both seem to have in common, I notice, is that they are. They're set piece driven, which is great because I love those moments, too.

[01:19:09] I actually like a moment that could be seen as being quite boring, but it is my favorite moment ultimately in the film because it's the linchpin that is kind of like the fuse. I'm sparking and lighting the way for the bomb to go off my favorite moment in the film.

[01:19:30] And when I watched the picture in preparation for our get together today a couple of days ago, again, I said to myself, let me see if my let me see if my emotional inklings change a little bit and I deviate. Maybe I'll like something. My favorite thing will be maybe like Marth Keller doing, you know, Dark Nurse Duty or the Miami Beach shootout. No, no. My opinion has not changed.

[01:19:57] My favorite moment is actually. The very opening moment of the siege at the beginning of the film, but it is a decisive moment. I'm going to tell you guys when because it's not action driven. It's character driven. What it is, is this. It is the moment when Shaw. Opens the shower curtain. Sees Mark Keller there and spares her life.

[01:20:27] Right. OK, you guys think about this now. That is basically a direct act of human empathy. On the Shaw characters part that causes what becomes an absolutely catastrophic shitshow of a failure in that operation. It is ostensibly what allows that sliver of humanity.

[01:20:57] That he engenders towards her is what allows that fucking terrorist plot to proceed. It is deeply disturbing. But you know what it also is? Because we're talking favorite moments. I think personally that it's two great actors at the peak of their powers demonstrating what can be done to convey a pivotal story moment in silence. Because.

[01:21:26] Do you both notice when he opens that shower door who speaks? Nobody speaks. She's sitting there in the corner, nude, vulnerable and cowering in terror. But of course, she's playing her part. She's playing her part. And what is he doing? He's flinching. He's having a moment of remorse that he should not have because he's doing the obvious thing. He is looking at her in what he perceives to be a moment of voluntary weakness.

[01:21:55] And he is assuming he's putting the cart before the horse and saying, I'm going to walk. I'm going to turn away from this. I'm not going to do anything. And then, of course, we realize then that that moment, given the circumstances and the types of antagonists that we're dealing with. That moment split second decision could be fucking fatal. And sure enough. Yeah. Well, you guys can't disagree.

[01:22:25] That is the moment that sets the engine of the entire narrative in motion. So, you know what? I'm probably being a little bit biased here. Speaking as a writer. I will be frank with both of you. I am choosing this as my favorite moment because I am speaking wholly as a writer.

[01:22:41] Because what I try to do in everything that I write is decide always what is a moment that I can create that will intriguingly and interestingly set forth the engine that will become this story's driving narrative.

[01:22:59] So, for me, listen, and as far as the way it was executed, I don't know if it was a layman thing, a frankenheimer thing, or just those two artists in question, players, you know, filling the frame. Whoever it was, I feel it is a genius moment. It is a knockout setup. That's my favorite moment. Well, what I like about it a lot, too, is they give the detail in the movie that Robert Shaw's character's wife died.

[01:23:29] Yes. We don't know the circumstances. This is a guy with, you know, the Israeli forces. We don't know what his backstory is. Right. We don't know what his wife's backstory is. Right. But you can kind of, like, then question, like, why did he let her live? Is there something that he sees in that moment that speaks to his character in a way that we don't know? There's a bit of an ambiguous element there. We don't know.

[01:23:52] Did you notice, though, that what makes that opening pay off so beautifully at the end is when he's looking at her helicopter to blimp. Did you guys notice they exchange that same look? Yeah. That look from the shower with him looking at her, tearing the curtain open as he's looking at her across the way. This time he's looking at her kind of like again. And you notice it's an unspoken exchange.

[01:24:20] But this time he's looking at her. She's looking at him saying, oh, God, it's you again. And he's looking at her saying, I'm not going to fuck up this time. Now you're done. 77 was a real year of exchanges of looks between male heroes and female antagonists with Spy Who Love Me and Naomi and Bond. Right. You have that as well. No, no, no, I really like that. And I think also it speaks to Robert Shaw has a modicum of decency. Yes.

[01:24:50] In how he handles himself. Right. And she is willing to at least ignore those impulses because of what she sees as a single minded pursuit of her, you know, ultimate goals. Yes, exactly. Right. I could jump in on the love boat with you all on this one. But I will just note my third note on this film was, is this entire plot instigated because Robert Shaw let his dick do the thinking? No, you know what, Pam? I mean, I'm sorry, Scott. You know what?

[01:25:18] I am so glad that you very bluntly laid it out that way, because at the end of the day, you know what? An argument could be made and it would be absolutely acceptable. It would be logical. It would be feasible that in answer to your question. Possibly, yes, 100 percent. But again, to your point, even if that is the case. That's OK. It was not a criticism.

[01:25:48] It was more of me writing a joke down. That's really all it was. No, no. But but it's 100 percent. It's a great observation. Listen. Here, let me be frank with both of you, because I'm periodically glancing at my notes as I as I talk to you both. I said to myself, I'm going to be honest with both of them and I'm going to tell them a very unconventional choice. I could easily go there.

[01:26:12] I'm not going to because I'm going to see if either one of them picks up on the fact that in in actual fact, the decision seems to be. Partially, if not wholly driven by sexuality. Yes, it does. And that equates, unfortunately, in those circumstances with weakness. Steve, I just have to say you keep you've said a few times, let me be frank.

[01:26:40] I think for this episode, you need to be saying, let me be Frankenheimer. How right you are. We interrupt this program to bring you a special report. Agent, we don't expect you to talk. We expect you to buy a subscription to our Patreon. Eee. That's right.

[01:27:05] Over on the SpyHards Patreon, we're covering all your favorite spy TV shows, as well as popular films from the most iconic secret agent actors of all time. Cam, why don't you share some intel on our latest assignment? Well, Scott, we had a ton of fun over on the Patreon in the month of June, and now is the perfect time for those that missed out to catch up.

[01:27:27] We tackled a couple superhero movies in Superman 4, The Quest for Peace, and Hancock, as well as the very odd 1990s British sitcom, Good Night, Sweetheart. It was all kinds of crazy and all kinds of fun. So accept your mission and help support your favorite spy movie podcast at patreon.com slash spyhards. But before we activate the fourth protocol, let's get back to the Spy Jinks.

[01:27:58] Well, we've celebrated its highs. Maybe I'm trying to think of like football vernacular. Fumble. Are we in the fourth down? Oh, it's a fumble. I was going for like we're in the last stages of the episode, like fourth down or whatever. Oh, gotcha. Thank you, though, for interrupting. It must have had a fumble or two. I haven't got much on this section, to be honest with you, in terms of notes.

[01:28:23] The one thing I'd say that stands out a little bit is all that good work you put in, and then you get some of those shots of the blimp, and it looks quite cartoony, because it is the 1970s, and you can't escape it. But it was one of the only moments that pulled me out of the film slightly, I would say. That's only looking at it from a 2026 lens. I can't help that. Understood. Makes perfect sense.

[01:28:47] I'm kind of with you, Scott, from the standpoint that looking at demerits or negatives or aspects that don't work, it's kind of like as it was for me with Marathon Man. It's very tricky for me with this one. I came up with one. I don't know. It's frankly, it's some weak ass bullshit. I mean, it's not the type of thing with like, you're going to go there. That's what your problem was.

[01:29:15] Well, I apologize, but it's the only thing I could think of. The weakness to me was, again, I'm being extremely nitpicky with this, but here's what it is. And maybe I'd like to hear what both of you think about this, because you may, actually, you may vehemently disagree with what I have to say. But as, again, speaking solely as a writer, I keep saying to myself, how would I have constructed that moment? What it was is this.

[01:29:45] Because the conflict was so intimate between the central characters, I actually was hoping that because we were looking at two kind of like sort of parallel aircrafts on a collision course via the blimp in the helicopter, I figured, well, Shaw spent so much time, to your point earlier, Scott, trying to latch that hook.

[01:30:12] And that becomes such a moment of unbearable tension. I really wanted him to not commandeer the blimp, but I wanted him to get fucking in there. I wanted him in there. What I wanted, you guys actually know this, being familiar with some of my work. You guys both know that I detail and work very hard when I write action scenes.

[01:30:41] And I like hand-to-hand combat, as you know, in my writing. I wanted this to be a very intimate close quarters. Can you imagine? Inside that dirigible, inside the Goodyear blimp, I think would have been fantastic. And I think Frankenheimer, because he's so effortlessly brilliant when it comes to staging all sorts of action, I think he would have had a field day with it.

[01:31:07] I would have liked to have had some sort of close quarter combat as the dirigible is sort of trying to stay afloat in midair. Instead, of course, we just got the... And I'll tell you how it makes amends, though. Instead, we just got the whole looking across the way, one aircraft to another, blasting Mark Keller, blasting Dern with the machine gun. And that's the end of that, end of confrontation.

[01:31:38] It's punchy, but it's brief. I understand the necessity of having had to do it. On the other hand, I would have erred in the direction of close quarter combat because I think it actually was feasible to pull that off. They were getting so outlandish. I'm going to use these terms, but I mean it in the best way.

[01:32:01] They were getting so outlandish and extreme with the physical bits of action at the end because at the climax, as you both know, we are already now delving into 70s disaster film territory. That at that point, it's anything goes. And that's okay. That's why the climax is so brilliant.

[01:32:22] But where it made amends, pivoting back to what I said about why it's not a total fumble for me, is that despite the fact that they didn't go mano a mano, what you did get was that mirroring exchange of looks. From one, the helicopter to, you know, that mutual recognition of, oh, you again, you're done. And that's it.

[01:32:47] So that kind of, to me, kind of, it was like, all right, the brevity of the whole shoot you down, shoot you down is kind of like, it's forgiven for this. But I think in the end, I would have preferred it to go the other way as far as how the physical action was staged. But I told you guys from the beginning, it's a minor, minor quibble. It's no big deal. But that's it.

[01:33:11] Well, I'm going to throw it to Cam in a second, but I just want to add something because this is a film I'm hoping more people will click on to listen to. And so hopefully a lot of people will make it to the stage in the episode. I want to add a phrase to the Spy Hard's vernacular. Yeah, there's quite a few phrases we've got over the years. But whenever we have a scene moving forward of someone who's trying to do something that seems quite menial, but it takes them a very long time because drama happens. I want it now to be referred to as hook the blimp.

[01:33:40] That's a good one, actually. That's great. My dislike was pretty much in line with what Scott said, which was just there's some effect shots or some rear projection that are pretty iffy. The one that really bugged me was the explosion of the blimp. Oh, yes. Where, like, you're telling me they couldn't use a model or something as opposed to this weird effect? It just sort of went like kapow, like in a comic book. Just sort of went poof. And that's it. Yeah. And it was like orange on the screen. And you're like, oh, okay.

[01:34:10] I guess that's that. Like, to me, if you're going to build to that, do the extra legwork and just use a model or something and just blow it up. It would look cool because, you know, I think of the movie Jaws. You know, Steven Spielberg said, if I can, you know, hold them for two hours, they'll forgive me for the last five minutes when, you know, I have the oxygen tank and the shark and all that. That effect is incredible. Yes, it is. And I feel like it's probably harder to stage the explosion of a great white shark that's ripping through the water than a blimp blowing up in front of, like, blue sky.

[01:34:39] Like, that has to be probably easier. So, that was a bit of a bummer. I will say, though, like, a dislike. I want to just mention, you know, Scott, you said, hopefully people check out this movie. My worry is that a movie like this, the first hour and a half, holds them at enough length where it doesn't get those people who are curiosity seekers pursuing a movie like this. Like, is that perhaps a wall between this movie getting more attention?

[01:35:04] It's not a dislike in terms of what Frankenheimer seemingly wanted to do with the movie, but I did think to myself, like, maybe there's a reason this movie isn't as popular among mainstream watchers as it should be. It's entirely possible. It has just had a, I say just, oh, literally in March this year, it had a 4K re-release, actually, by Arrow Films. So, yeah, that's the one I have. It's great. Right. I'm just looking at the bonus features on there.

[01:35:33] I might pick it up just to see some of the documentaries on there. I had one little dislike before I throw us into final notes, and that is not a demerit on the film. It's a demerit on us as a species because we've stopped using blimps, and I really would like them back. Well, I made a note of that. We've had a lot of blimps in spy films because View to a Kill, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade with the, you know, no ticket, that's going to pop up.

[01:36:01] I don't know if you guys remember, there was a beautiful use of a blimp in, you know, in De Palma's Scarface when Pacino looks up. Right, yeah. Yeah, and you see, and it says the world is yours as the blimp is. Yeah, that's beautiful use of a blimp there as well, yeah. Rocketeer had a big finale on a blimp. And also British Intelligence had a whole sequence of blimps like bombing London. It was incredible. Right. I will be making a picture this week with all the blimps and spy movies I can find.

[01:36:31] I'm sure you'll all love that. But bring back the blimps, I say. Let's go to final notes. We mentioned the Sum of All Fears connection. Obviously, there's a little football game homage there, but the president is there as well, so you've got that kind of thing going on. I do find it quite interesting that you do get Gogol in this film, so in my head canon, this is loosely connected to Bond. Yeah. Yes. Although, I think, is he playing Egyptian in this movie? I think so. I think so, yeah.

[01:37:00] I couldn't tell, but the thought did occur to me. It certainly was possible, yeah. But the thing I wanted to really highlight was, first of all, go check out the trailer for this, folks. The trailer for this is actually well known for being one of the best trailers ever made. Interesting. I've watched it twice in a row, and it's actually some of the scenes in the trailer that Quentin Tarantino was riffing on in Kill Bill. Oh, wow. So, that's what he is. It's like having the dual screen split shot thing. It's all in the trailer. Check it out.

[01:37:29] I might post it online this week for you to see. And lastly, we didn't really mention this, but one thing I do like about this film, it's just a final note, is that they never actually explain the plot or the plan. Yeah. No, that's a good point. This is true. Absolutely true. You watch heist movies, and they're like, okay, here's the plan. And they walk through the plan, and then they do the plan afterwards, and the plan falls apart, and they just about get through. And that's a heist film.

[01:37:52] But this film, it's like you see them put it together, but you're not really ever quite sure the delivery method of this bomb until, like, really, when they're doing it. And I just quite like the fact that it is confident enough in itself to be like, we're not going to give it to them. We're just going to show them. Yeah. Right. For me with notes, I had a couple things. The scene where it's leading up to the shootout at the beach.

[01:38:18] You have the whole chase sequence, and there's a part where the guy is on foot running away, the culprit, and a cat runs in front of him. Yes. And I was like, that cat is not acting. I feel like that cat was in the alley or something like that. And that actor jumps over it on the spot, and I'm like, it's that level of just, you know, that improvisational feel of 70s films, which is why I love them so much. And it just feels realistic. Yeah.

[01:38:46] I'm always jumping over cats. No, and you know what, gents, let me just kind of dive in here before I forget, because where final notes are concerned, I would have felt terrible if I had neglected to say this.

[01:39:02] But I think it's important, because ultimately, the reason why, you know, not excluding what you mentioned earlier, Scott, in the show as to my very sort of, I guess you'd say, calculated reasoning behind. I'm selecting this film for us to discuss on this, you know, imminent release of the third book in my trilogy.

[01:39:24] But I wanted to also just conclude by saying this about this picture, and that is that when it's all said and done, I really think that we're looking also, as much as we're examining a great, undervalued, underappreciated work, not only in American 70s cinema, but in the spy genre as a whole.

[01:39:46] What we are also looking, if there is to be a third tier, let's say, to this analysis, is a great, underappreciated work by one of the truly great, I feel, directors of the medium. I'm talking like in film history. Yeah. At least he means that much to me. But when it's all said and done, I hope that people will, as much as tuning into our show here today, tune into this picture. See this film.

[01:40:17] Don't hem and haw. Don't fuck around with contemplating what are the pros and cons. Oh, will it be too distressing? Oh, is it too prescient to the world in which we live today? Throw that out the window.

[01:40:30] Throw that out the window because what you're really going to get into with this one is a truly immersive, captivating, grab-you-by-the-throat action thriller that is unlike few films from that decade or since.

[01:40:47] It is a signature Frankenheimer movie because it flawlessly, I should say, encapsulates his obsessions with, think about this now, conspiracy, technical obsession, and political paranoia.

[01:41:06] But at the same time, it is a singularly distinctive movie because of the very intimate focus that he places on a deeply damaged American villain instead of just this sort of faceless terrorist entity.

[01:41:21] So what it does is it acts as a bridge between the clinical suspense-driven cinema of Frankenheimer's 1960s pictures, i.e., Manchurian Candidate, Seven Days in May, Seconds, etc., with the more high-octane spectacle of his later works, highlighted, of course, brilliantly, as we all agree, with something like Ronan,

[01:41:48] merged ultimately with a slight dash of offering a new Hollywood take on the disaster thriller. This is what cumulatively makes this movie the special one-of-a-kind experience that I think it truly is. I couldn't put it better myself, and I think that's a perfect way to take us into...

[01:42:18] To pick a side. The knock list? Yeah, no, I thought that was a perfect segue. I was like, go! Yeah, that's it. Well, let's vote on it. I think it's probably a foregone conclusion, but hey, let's just have fun, why don't we? Why don't we? Steve, come on, man. Is it making a knock list? Oh, I mean, listen. If it was such a hands-down win-win when we talked last about Marathon Man,

[01:42:47] it's with equal conviction, brio, gusto, and compassion that I say, without even the slightest glimmer of a doubt, Black Sunday is total knock list. Well, okay, that's one vote. It still could go either way. Cam, what do you have? I think I'm a yes on this one as well. And if it makes it, that's two Marta Keller films on the knock list. That's right. Yeah, with Marathon Man.

[01:43:15] I will say this, I'm very positive on this movie. I think it belongs on the knock list. I will say that Marathon Man was the much more like 1,000% on the knock list, whereas like this one, I'm very enthusiastic. I think it belongs on, but it's not in the quite masterpiece realm that Marathon Man is. Cam, I don't disagree with a single word you said, because that is the word, as you gents recall, that I kept sort of like banding about, and even Scott threw it in as well.

[01:43:44] That is what Marathon Man is. It is a masterpiece. This movie is not in that terrain. But what we're arguing right now, or at least positing the question, is, is Black Sunday knock list worthy? And the answer is, for me, a definitive yes. Yeah. It's also, I mean, it's not a different genre. They're all spy movies. But this is a different sub-genre of spy movies, in the sense that it has that disaster stuff thrown into it. But it's, I mean, there's definitely ideologies going in Marathon Man too,

[01:44:14] but that is a far more personal drama than this is. Interesting, though, that, you know, Marathon Man's about the lingering wounds of World War II, and this is the lingering wounds of the Vietnam War. That's a great observation, Cam, and it's 100% accurate. Yes. Well, I'm going to say no, just because the blimp has a nipple on the front. Oh, jeez. I'm kidding. Stop writing in. I can hear you emailing us already. Stop it. Stop. Put it down. No.

[01:44:44] Bad. Good. There you go. Thank you. Yes, of course it's making an knock list. Yes, it's a yes from me. Three yeses as such. It's making an knock list. The dossier on Black Sunday is complete and filed as classified. Mr. Cobran, you've got a good track record on this show. Well, I mean. Well, the chairman? Two and one. We're two and one. Pretty good odds for most people, to be fair. That is true. Yeah, Scott has a great point. A lot of guests are still waiting to make the knock list. Oh, okay. All right. So there you go. They're losing sleep, apparently.

[01:45:14] There's a support group. It's a whole thing. No, this was fantastic. I'm so glad that we were able to sort of like open this Pandora's box and really kind of like, listen, whatever we can do, right, gents? Whatever we can do to unleash these hidden gems of spy cinema to the world that are not, you know, not that they're out in the, not that they're, you know, invisible in the public

[01:45:40] consciousness, but they don't really get the love and affection that they rightfully deserve. Hopefully this show of ours can change that. It deserves it. But I've always said, I'm like a caveman. We go out, we whack them over the head with something like Bond or Mission Impossible. We drag them into the cave. And then in the cave is stuff like Black Sunday and the adventures of Tartu. Exactly. Yeah.

[01:46:06] And you just found out you'd like all these films you didn't even know about because sometimes they're actually better than Bond. But it's been a pleasure having you back on, Steve. Obviously, we spoke about what's going on with you at the moment, what's coming out, but where can people find you online? Where can people find your books online more importantly? Yes. So the entire Man from Belize trilogy is available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. That's The Man from Belize is book one. Sins of the Raven is book two.

[01:46:36] And now Servant of the Earth, the end of the trilogy is book three. And I am at Stephen M. Cobran on Instagram. And I am at Stephen Cobran, author on Facebook. And of course, we'll have those links in the show notes as always. Yes. Thank you. Great being here with you guys as always. But Steve, thanks for coming on.

[01:47:04] And we'll have to have you back on sometime. Maybe we'll give you something fluffier next time. Maybe Despicable Me 3. Oh, there you go. I feel like Steve is due for another like chairman like film or something that falls short of its intended goal. I have a thought. I have a thought. We'll talk about this down the road, but I'm already I'm right there with you, Cam.

[01:47:29] I have something that could be tremendous fun in a so bad it's good type. Now you're talking my language. Yeah. Yeah. I'm right there with you. Well, thank you, Steve. We'll see you next time. Thank you, gents. Great being here. Take care. There you go, folks. That was our chat about Black Sunday. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you enjoyed the film. Let us know what you thought of Black Sunday and if it should make the knock list in the

[01:47:57] comments on Spotify and also on social media. Come and find us there. And also thank you to our guest, Steve Cobran, for coming back on the show. Always a pleasure to have him here. Of course, if you want to hear more about his books, you can find details in the show notes below. But Cam, the question goes to you, as it always does, sir. What are we doing next week? We are leaping forward a couple of decades to catch up with Keanu Reeves on the run in

[01:48:22] the 1996 thriller Chain Reaction directed by Andrew Davis, who we previously talked about when he made the package. And he also, of course, directed The Fugitive under siege. He's been on the show. I mean, we got to get back because this man knows how to make a thriller. He does indeed. I think this is Keanu's first time on Spy Hearts. Yeah. Weirdly, I think it might be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It hasn't done many spy films. In fact, this might be. I mean, there's an argument about The Matrix, but. Oh, no.

[01:48:51] We did cover John Wick Chapter 4. Oh, that's a good point, Cam. Fair enough. There is some sort of light espionage in the John Wick world, so maybe that counts. Yeah. They're ones that we've never really embraced fully on Spy Hearts because it's like, I mean, I guess they, it's sort of like iffy. I guess it's a secret society, so it definitely makes the argument just as much perhaps as something like Men in Black. Yeah. But we haven't, we haven't quite journeyed down the full John Wick road yet. Or run out of material otherwise.

[01:49:21] Yeah. Yeah. We've, we've tackled them as they've come out in theaters for, you know, declassified episodes, but so far that's it. But there you go, folks. Join us next week as we take a look at Chain Reaction. Will Keanu Reeves have a saying? Whoa. Hmm. Hmm. There's only one way to find out. That's right. Thank you, Cam, for that resounding, resounding agreement. Come and join us over on Patreon if you haven't thought about it before.

[01:49:47] If we can convince you, maybe just think about the hours that go into putting this show together. The blood, sweat, the tears, the blimp rides. There's a lot that goes into making Spy Hearts. I'm sat in my office recording this on a Friday afternoon where I could be out at a beer garden, drinking my body weight in beer, trying to cool myself down as it's currently 40 degrees in this office. But no, no, no. I am here for you.

[01:50:15] So I need you to be here for our wallets. That's right. And of course, if you jump over to the Patreon, we talked a lot in the Black Sunday episode about disaster movies. If you head over to the Patreon, we've done episodes on- It's a complete disaster. Well, yes. But we've done episodes on the Poseidon Adventure, Towering Inferno, Meteor, and we will definitely be doing more because we have an absolute blast. Also, another movie influenced a bit by disaster movies we tackled over there,

[01:50:45] Superman the Movie with Christopher Reeve. So believe me, the 70s is alive and well over on the Patreon. Exactly. So come and join us as we celebrate a good disaster film over on the Patreon. Help us make the show. Help us pay for the show and maybe afford some silent air conditioning for my office. Every little helps, folks. He's wilting like a rose, folks. You all think I'm trying to lose weight. No, I'm just melting. Just melting.

[01:51:15] But I won't be melting. Maybe melting down over on social media this week talking about Black Sunday. Come and find us at Spy Hearts wherever you get your social media. S-P-Y-H-A-R-D-S and all the major outlets and even some of the minor ones too. I'm in one hopes. But until next week, folks, you'll find me swinging from a rope underneath a blimp doing my best impression of Robert Shaw stunt double.

[01:51:39] This podcast is part of Podomity, the UK's podcast comedy network. Why not laugh at what else we've got? Visit Podomity.com.