Kevin Eldon

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[00:00:41] Hello and welcome to Out Of Character, a podcast about sketch and character comedy. My name is Alex Lynch. In this show I chat to writers and performers from the world of sketch and character comedy, find out what made them venture into it, talk about their characters, maybe meet some of their characters, and generally just shoot the breeze and, more importantly, have a laugh.

[00:01:02] This is series six and my special guest for episode 79 is the actor, writer and comedian Kevin Eldon. Hello. Which is my age actually, 79. So that's quite a coincidence. And, yeah, you say have a laugh, hopefully. Well, I'm sorry about that. Have I already set expectations low? Is that the... Yeah. Is that what you're saying?

[00:01:30] No, it's too high actually, too high. But no, it's lovely to be here. Thank you very much. Pleasure. Pleasure. Pleasure. Not that it's not something I normally do, but it sounds interesting. Oh, well, I'm very, I'm very flattered. Thank you. How are you? It's so hot. Yes. At the time of recording, the very trees are melting outside. I don't know. How long do you put this on after recording?

[00:01:58] Oh, it'll be a couple of months. So I mean, we may, we may have all, we may have all burnt. Yes. Just burnt in the fires of fires of hell. Yeah. All the way things are going now will be under six inches of snow. Nobody knows anymore. Oh my God. Yeah. They're uncertain times, uncertain times.

[00:02:22] Well, in these uncertain times, let's talk about what you have been doing. You have been making this brilliant podcast series called Speakers. Very kind of you to say so. Oh no, I love it. It's so funny. If we're trying to sort of sell it to people who've never heard it before, it is you doing sketches and characters and music as well.

[00:02:43] Yeah. It's kind of, it's even a bit looser than that really is whatever nonsense drifts through my mind. And it's, it's the beauty of the podcast, isn't it? You know, you've got no one breathing down your neck. So you can, you can do exactly what you want. So, you know, if you just want to jump up and down for 30 seconds and record that, why not? And that's actually an idea that I shall probably use in a future episode.

[00:03:09] But no, about, I started in November and I thought, well, you know, that's what the world needs now, isn't it? Another podcast. I'm just crying out for another podcast. So I thought I'd do one, but it was a very good opportunity for me to have a forum in which to do some disciplined writing.

[00:03:33] So it's, it's, you've just got to keep your hand in writing wise. And, you know, if you haven't got anything commissioned or you're not aiming towards anything, then you can just sort of let it slide. And then suddenly six weeks goes by and you haven't written a thing.

[00:03:48] So, and so this was very much, you know, and my own machine to kick me up the bottom to keep writing. And although I only, we only put out about sort of 10 to 15 minutes a month, most podcast people are going, what? We do two a week of an hour of us nattering away. No, that's, that's quality control. That's good.

[00:04:12] Well, it's not laziness because it's very, it's very labour intensive. I do it with an old mucker of mine, Martin Bird, who's this magnificent producer and he's a musician and a songwriter. And we've known each other for years and years and years. And we've, and he's always written with me musically wise on other projects throughout the years. Oh, really?

[00:04:37] Yeah, he's done all kinds of songs for me on my telly show and radio show. He's done stuff there. And we've been in bands together since we were teenagers. Oh, wow.

[00:04:47] So, I, I come up with this stuff. I did it's monologues and there's sketches as well. And then, and then songs. And Martin weaves his magic and, and, and stitches the whole lot together and gives it a very nice sort of ambient weird, sort of almost psychedelic sound to it sometimes.

[00:05:11] And, and, and, and he does a lot of great work on it. And so, yeah, so we do that and it's got very nice response. I mean, I'm not on social media, so I don't see any direct feedback. And so, but we have a wonderful producer called Laura Grimshaw, who's done all kinds of wonderful stuff and, and still does. And she looks after all the comms on it and, and publicity wise. And, and she's just great at sort of getting it out there.

[00:05:42] And yeah, so I've been doing that since November, kind of nearly coming up to our, our 10th episode next month. And I just intend to keep doing it. You know, it's, I'm not doing it for money and certainly not fame or anything like that, but I, we are getting feedback and people do seem to be enjoying it. It's fun to do. And as I say, it sort of keeps my hand in writing wise and performance wise. So it is good fun. Yeah, it's great. I mean, how, how good are you at disciplining yourself with writing?

[00:06:12] Well, it's kind of, I'm good because it's, I've set myself this little, this little target of getting this out every month. And it's sort of, I've got this strange sort of slightly obsessive work ethic. And I would, I would disappoint myself horribly if I, if I couldn't actually meet that deadline. And we started off before we hit the, hit the ground with the first one last November, we had four in the can.

[00:06:41] So yeah. Yeah. So we had a little sort of a, the magazine was full and obviously, you know, time keeps pushing us and pushing us. But at the same time, we've also found that we've found shortcuts ways to work. So, and certain bits sort of frighten. So it's not easy, but, but the time gets shorter. So we're always chasing, chasing the deadline, but I guess that's half the excitement of it really.

[00:07:05] Well, absolutely. And I mean, I know you sort of were saying before about it's 15 minutes and people, you know, sort of expect you to do more, but to come up with 15 minutes of scripted material every month, you know, that's, that's, especially when it's something you're doing in your spare time. That's, that's no mean feat. Well, I mean, you did, you did stand up. Did you do, you did stand up? Character comedy, character comedy and sketch. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:30] Character comedy. So you'll know that, you know, some people are easily prolific, but the most standups that I ever knew found it really hard to come up with new material. Um, and, and, you know, you, you'd have people, you know, so I've got to do a new hour and you go, well, you've got a year to do it. And that seems easy. It does seem easy, but it's, it's not actually, it's kind of, I mean, you know, um, Stuart Lee comes up with a, a new, uh, sort of hour or two hours every year.

[00:07:57] But I know for a fact, I know, cause he's a pal. I know how hard he works at that. I mean, just, just works so hard at it. So, so I guess, you know, you're right. It, it does seem a short amount, but you hopefully don't want to, you want to keep the quality high as, as possible. Absolutely. Is it all new stuff or are you using some sketches and characters and monologues that you maybe didn't use elsewhere, but you had in mind for a different project or something? Or are you trying to make it all new?

[00:08:27] I did, uh, have my character, uh, which I've been doing for years, my poet character, Paul Hamilton. And, um, and as I was doing the old material, I'd felt like I was cheating a bit. And so I think that, uh, there have been in the first few eps, some old stuff, but I just thought, no, I just got to keep it new now. And, and it seems a bit out of keeping with, with, you know, this new show, this was old stuff in a new show.

[00:08:55] So I may, I may recalibrate some, some old stuff yet. Um, but at the moment I'm still coming up with some fairly new stuff. So hopefully I'll stick to that protocol. I especially love your musical parodies that you've got in there. Obviously people must go and listen to it, but just, but just, but just for, um, it might not make sense if people haven't heard it, but your only connect double, uh, tributes with,

[00:09:24] in the style of Oasis and then Blur is just wonderful. Thank you. I, thanks very much. I don't know where that idea came from, but I suddenly, it struck me because I'm always watching only connect and just thinking, what are they going on about? I mean, what are these questions and these, these, these delightfully, um, eccentric, uh, um, contestants and I just, I, for some reason, I just thought of Liam Gallagher sitting there watching it and getting really annoyed.

[00:09:54] And so, uh, so he rants, uh, in this song about only connect. I don't like swearing in my comedy, but it's, you know, staying true to character to Liam. There's a lot of swearing in it.

[00:10:24] So, so he, he, he's going on about how he hates, uh, and then when we used to think about the nineties, the Brit pop stuff, there was always, uh, Oasis versus, uh, Blur. And I thought it might be funny if, uh, Blur absolutely love only connect and despise the people who don't get the highbrow nature of the questions. Um, so, uh, yeah, so they're in, uh, in, um, two consecutive episodes, uh, talking to each other.

[00:11:14] Are you going to have a band that's very indifferent to it? That's a very good idea, isn't it? I mean, who would that be? Deacon Blue or something? I don't know. I'll have to, yeah, I'll have to think. Maybe Bob Dylan doesn't mind it one way or the other. Or, um, uh, Pulp. Pulp? God, yeah. That's a really good idea. Okay, that's it. I mean, checks in the post, Alex. Well done.

[00:11:49] You've always done music, haven't you? Because you were saying you and Martin were in a band since you were teenagers? Yeah, yeah. So have you always mixed music with your comedy? Yes, I have. And, and I think I know where this started. And this started, um, well, there were always comedy songs in the charts when I was a kid. You don't get them anymore. No. But my formative years were the 60s and 70s. And there was usually one every couple of months that would get to number one.

[00:12:17] And a lot of them were rubbish, but you'd get a good one every now and then. But the one, the moment comedy song-wise that got me was when I borrowed, and then after a certain amount of time went, the term borrowed became stole. And then after a double album of a kid who lived down the road by the Bonzo Dog Doodah Band. Oh, wow, yes.

[00:12:40] I have taken it as my evangelical mission to, uh, to wang on about the Bonzos, um, because, um, they seem to be fading from people's memory. Uh, there are not many people under 60, I don't think, who, who are aware of, uh, of the Bonzos anymore. I really do. They, they, they were sort of late came around in the 60s. Uh, they started off as a, a, a sort of, uh, a kooky, uh, thirties T-band type jazz band.

[00:13:10] And then they branched out into, um, just taking the mickey out of all the other styles of music that was going around in the 60s. And they did it brilliantly, uh, with their, with the lyrics and music wise. So no matter what the style was going at the moment, there was a lot in the 60s. So if it was soul, it was psychedelia or it was pop, rock and roll, funk. Um, they, they had a take on it and it was always very, very funny. And, um, I loved it.

[00:13:39] And I borrowed this album, stole this album and, and I listened to it over and over and over and over again. And, um, the singer was this guy called Vistancho, this sort of wonderfully, um, sort of a rudite, uh, eccentric chap who had this fruity voice. And, uh, and, uh, real sense of the absurd. And the songs were largely written by Neil Innes. Oh, yes.

[00:14:04] Who was, of course, the, the, uh, he read the songwriter of the Rutles and did lots of stuff with Monty Python. Of course, yes. And what Neil Innes did, um, was, uh, do the very rare thing of writing comedy songs that, uh, stood up to repeated listenings. Um, a lot of comedy songs, once you've got the joke and that's it, a couple of songs and you're sick of it. But he wrote such beautifully well-constructed songs, um, that were songs in their own right. They just also happened to be funny.

[00:14:33] So I was a massive fan of that and that was an early comedy input to me. Uh, they were very much akin to, um, Python. Um, uh, they were kind of Python electrified with a drum kit clattering around the back, really. And so when I started doing, um, bands and I, I started writing the odd comedy song. And I'm, I'm not sure if in retrospect they would be hilarious now.

[00:15:01] Um, but, but audiences at the time seemed to really like them. And, uh, and then as I got into standup, I, I wrote comedy songs then I got songs in there and they appeared in my Radio 4, uh, shows. And also, uh, the It's Kevin show as well. And so, yeah, so I've always, uh, been, um, attracted to the idea of writing them.

[00:15:24] They're hard to write, but if you come up with a good idea and, uh, and, and, and it works, it's, it's very satisfying to do. Uh, and, uh, and it gets a great feedback too. Have you heard Dan Mersh's, um, if Bonzo Dog Doodah Band had done a Bond theme? Right. No, I haven't.

[00:15:47] He did a series of Bond themes if they'd been done by, one was Bonzo Dog Doodah Band, another one was Bowie, another one was Sex Pistols. And they're very funny. Like, it's just, it's, yeah, it's basically just the opening sequence of like Moonraker. Yeah. But the audio he has recorded is like a new Bowie song that's, it's, yeah.

[00:16:10] And the Bonzo Dog Doodah Band one is very weird and very kind of, um, he sort of captured it quite, quite well. Oh, I can't wait to hear that. So he hasn't done the existing Bond songs in the style of, he's written completely new ones. Yes. Yeah. Great. But for, but for, for films. So like, um, it's like if David Bowie had written the song called Moonraker for Moonraker, it's that, yeah. I shall catch up on Mr. Mersh. Definitely. Thanks. Thanks for the heads up. No, no worries.

[00:16:40] Going back to when you were saying about people trying to construct like a whole hour, for example, did you, um, did you take full hour shows to Edinburgh then? Have you been in that, um. That sort of, uh, writing, um, pit as it were of, of trying to come up with a whole show? Um, laziness and fear stopped me from doing it.

[00:17:05] Um, I, I did it once in 2000 and long time ago, probably 2013 or something. I can't remember how long it was. I did an hour and I, I absolutely had a ball. I enjoyed it and it went down okay. But, oh, the time I spent on it. It was six months of, uh, of writing and, and rehearsing and getting it, trying to get it as right as possible.

[00:17:32] And, um, I mean, you know, it paid dividends, but I, I found it incredibly stressful. Um, and I'd been always been lazy and I used to go up to Edinburgh because it was so much fun, obviously. Yeah. But I, I did it on other people's shows. So I would go up with, uh, uh, with Lee and Herring, uh, or anybody else who, who sort of wanted, uh, you know, gone for hire. Yeah. And it was much easier then no stress. And, uh, I could go and have me 31 New Year's Eve in a row.

[00:18:01] Um, and just as part of the team. Um, so yeah, so I did it once and then I just thought, yeah, I can see why, why people find this stressful. And I have great admiration for people who do come up with that extra, you know, that, that new hour every year. It's, it seems incredible to me and, uh, and, you know, hats off basically.

[00:18:21] Well, I think it's that thing of, if I'm right, when you, when you did Edinburgh with, um, your other friends on the circuit, it felt like you could muck about a bit more or you could try stuff out. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't matter. Whereas now you kind of have to come up with the finished polished product. Yeah. As it were. Um, and there's too much money at risk. Well, yeah. I mean, it's become, it's become super commercialized now, hasn't it?

[00:18:50] Um, and, and, and you're right. You do kind of have to have a polished show, but there are, I guess there are still some people who've got that, you know, freestyling jazz type approach to comedy. And, and they can, they can, they can just come up with the stuff more or less as it's happening or at the last moment. I remember there's a couple of years, um, a few years back or a couple of years in a row when I bumped into, uh, Bridget Christie. And it was, it was about sort of June or something. I said, Oh, hello, Bridget.

[00:19:20] Are you doing it? She's going, I'm going to Edinburgh. And I said, Oh, how have you, how far are you down on the right? And I said, Oh, you haven't started yet. Kev, I haven't started. And to me, that was kind of what you haven't started yet. And in both cases, I saw the shows and in both cases, they were brilliant. So it was absolutely sickening that she could just, you know, come and come up with this stuff. And, but that's the way she works, you know, some people can work that way and, and very successfully too. I wish I could.

[00:19:49] Um, but, uh, no, so that'd be too much of a panic attack for me. Yeah. Well, I think probably for most people, but you know, some people, some people can do it. So whatever your method is, man. Yeah. Yeah. When you end up, were you taking up character stuff or was it stand up? Cause you used to do Paul Hamilton on the circuit. Didn't, didn't you? Is that, I never, there was never enough for him to do a full sort of 20 minutes. No, no.

[00:20:16] It was because after you got the idea of the smart ass, uh, poet 12 minutes, it was kind of like, you went from being delighted by him to just thinking I'm going to kill him now. So I could only do him as part of the show, but I did sort of 10 minutes of him, uh, as an opener, uh, which worked quite well. And so I did character stuff and stand up. So I did a mix and, and songs as well. It was, uh, I, in fact, the show was nearly called Silicon Carney cause it was such

[00:20:45] a mix, but, uh, great. Yeah. That was, uh, in the end it was Kevin Eldon is titting around or titting about. Titting about. Nice. Oh God. I mean, Kevin, you are someone who I feel has been for want of a better word, um, omnipresent in comedy for, for the last 30 years at least. Like who's, who's just been in so many amazing shows.

[00:21:13] What was the comedy that you grew up with? Are you, and the comedy that kind of was comedy, what you always wanted to, to do or was music first or what was your kind of comedy was, comedy was stuff that, uh, that got me as a little kid. And, and I just, I loved it on the telly and I just, I loved it. I never thought I'd do it, um, in, in those early years, but yeah.

[00:21:40] So my formative years were the sixties and seventies and, and, and the stuff that was going around there. Then it's just amazing. A mixed bag of stuff. I mean, there was a lot of great stuff, you know, stuff that appealed to me, you know, old classics, dad's army, step toe and son, uh, faulty towers, Morecambe and wise. You got Dave Allen on the telly doing an hour. You've got, uh, whatever happened to the lightly lads and, uh, mash.

[00:22:07] I was a big fan of mash and these, these kinds of programs were, you know, absolute treasures to me. And I was greedy for them. I'd lap them up. I'd often record them and listen to them as sort of radio plays in bed. Um, and I remember that what was also lovely about them was that, uh, they appealed across the ages. A lot of those. So I would sit with my, my mum and dad and grandparents and we'd be watching dad's army

[00:22:36] or, or Morecambe and wise, and we'd all be laughing. And you know, that, that kind of communal experience is not so common these days. Uh, you know, it really isn't. And so, you know, it was a great time. Um, and at the same time, it's interesting to look back because they obviously, they weren't the most enlightened of times, uh, either. And that was reflected in, in what I was watching. And so you also, as well as those ones, you had stuff like on the buses and Benny Hill

[00:23:05] and mind your language, which was stuck in a, which was in an English learning score with the most horrendous foreign stereotypes. Oh my God. You have men about the house. It ain't half hot mum. Oh yeah. Yeah. And you look at them now and I do look at them now because I'm a big fan of rewind TV and talking pictures and just looking at all the old stuff and they, and, and it's interesting to see how they, they play out the attitudes of the time, race wise, gender wise, you know, to various degrees. It's interesting.

[00:23:35] You look at some of it now and you just go, Oh no, no, no, no, no. And then other stuff, other stuff that you look at the old stuff on the surface of it, you know, it's far from PC, but you can see it isn't actually coming from a place of, of, of, of malice or, or, or disrespect. No. But anyway, the, the ones I mentioned, you know, the ones, you know, the, the, the great ones, dad's army and all that, they were relatively free of those offensive takes on people.

[00:24:00] And, and I think that's probably part of why they're still so loved and they've stood the test of time. Yeah. They're timeless. They really, they, they, they do manage to even, and again, even in that, the fact that dad's army is set at a time when, you know, you could, it could have been a wash with stereotypes. Yeah. It's just beautifully written and the characters are fantastic. So all of this stuff was happening when I was a kid. I mean, I was even listening to old stuff.

[00:24:26] Then there was, uh, there were repeats of the goon show on, um, on the, uh, which is, you know, 1950s. This is, this is 70 years old. These shows, which my dad was, was listening to when he was in his early twenties. Yeah. And, and, and I mean, for their time, I mean, again, something that I think is, is fading away from, from people's, uh, memories, uh, for people under a certain age.

[00:24:53] And, and, and I've listened to some recently and just thought, how does it sound now? And it's really, really impressive to me. I can see why I liked it. The inventiveness of, of the use of sound, insanity of the plot twists, the turns, brilliance of the characters and the performances with the voices. It absolutely, you know, knockout. Um, but if you're talking about formative, the, the one, a bloke's my age will always say

[00:25:22] it's the Holy Grail literally. Um, and it's, it's Monty Python. Yes. Again, you know, less and less people, you know, um, bowing down to it. Like they all did throughout my, my, my formative years and growing up. Yeah. Yeah. Well, same with my peers. I mean, I'm 35 and most people, my age also bow down to Python because when we were teenagers, that was like our first taste of really surreal. Uh, and strange comedy that we kind of discovered ourselves as well. So yeah.

[00:25:52] So as a 35 year old, so you, you were what, 20 years ago, you, you found this online. Did you? And no, well, no. Cause I mean, it's a bit different with me. My, my parents, um, were like much older. So a lot of the shows that you mentioned, I used to watch with my dad. I used to watch it. Ain't half hot mom. I used to, um, watch all of those classic shows that, that you mentioned and then I discovered Monty Python when it was repeated on the Paramount comedy channel. Oh, okay.

[00:26:21] And then, um, I think my dad showed me the Holy grail and then, and then it was because I got into Python. Then I started discovering like life of Brian and, and then I became just obsessed with Python for a while. It was just. Good man. Yeah. I, I still love, um, I really love, if I was going to sort of like introduce the sketches of Python to somebody, I would probably use the film and now for something completely different.

[00:26:51] Yeah. Because I think that is the best collection of sketches. And interesting. They, they, they, they, they didn't just stick the, uh, the sketches from the TV together. No, they reshot it. Yeah. I know. And it looks very cinematic and kind of, I kind of prefer it. It's weird. I mean, I quite like the shonkiness of the, of the TV versions, but no, it's, it's smoother on, on the film, uh, film version. It's, it's, but it's a great kind of almost greatest hits at that time.

[00:27:19] I mean, the great frustration for me was that my parents hated it. Oh. Right. So I couldn't see it. And, you know, and we didn't have video recorders and, and streaming was summit. And the, and my, right. My mum didn't like it. I reckon because, because it had poorly animated cartoons of topless women. Right. And that was filth. Absolute filth. But I'm sure they were also absolutely baffled to the point of irritation by, by, by the nonsensical

[00:27:49] nature of it. So I had to catch up with Python and by listening to friends, Monty Python records. Yes. So they had the, the albums come out. It was sounding so old. That's right. They were on records, children. We used to listen to them on records. And I used to. Vinyl's, vinyl's just as popular now. Oh yeah. It's had a resurgent, hasn't it? You're right. You're right. But, um, you know, people just do nothing.

[00:28:14] You're not going to get them to put in their greatest bits of their, on an album, are you? But, um, but I, with Python, there was a real light bulb going on because, um, I, I kind of couldn't understand why I was laughing, which was really interesting. And, and the thing about it was there was, there was peer pressure to listen to, uh, watch Python because all the kids next day would be going, this Python, this Monty Python, this Python, you know, and they'd be quoted.

[00:28:41] And you, as a teenager, that's the kind of thing that you didn't want to miss out on. So I thought, I'm going to have to find out, you know, what this is to find out and stay cool and groovy. Yeah. And then when I did access it, I was kind of relieved that the excitement was completely understandable. And it was, I mean, Python was so original and surprising and exciting. And I think that I was responding to, to, to its, its, its core value of silliness, right?

[00:29:10] It was silliness for silliness sake, which I've always loved. I love silly people doing silly things. And because as a kid, you were told that you weren't allowed to be silly. It was, you know, you got punished for being silly because it was a serious world. And, you know, you, there were wars and there's, there were careers and there's respectability and status and good manners and all that boring stuff. And it was dimmed into us at school. And I thought, well, I don't believe it. You know, silly is the way forward. Excuse me.

[00:29:41] And Python was, you know, just full of very, very daft ideas. But also, I think that I sensed behind it, the intelligence. They were, they were obviously all very clever. And, you know, the, the whole, the whole thing about being silly was that if you were silly, you were stupid. It was, that was the thing that was sort of like drummed into you. Sure. And Python sort of taught you that silliness doesn't equate with stupidity, quite the opposite. And they were great performers.

[00:30:09] And, and also what really got me to is I found it so exciting that they'd smash the fourth wall repeatedly. And they'd, they'd establish a reality and then they just break it up with relish and glee. And I loved it. So, yeah, they, they did make a, a, a big dent in, in my sort of like comedy awareness. And I just thought, wow, imagine sort of God being anywhere near as funny as that.

[00:30:53] If you had to isolate with any comedy character, who would it be? You see, this doesn't seem to be a very attractive proposition to me. Because when you consider that most comedy characters are flawed in some way, right? They're either mad, evil, stupid, annoying, or weird, or all of them. So, so, you know, what's, it's not. And you can't embrace any of that? You can't.

[00:31:22] Well, if you're in isolation with them, there's nowhere to get away. So if I had to choose, you know, I can't, I mean, you know, you can imagine being stuck in isolation with Basil Fawlty or something. I've had someone say Basil Fawlty. Really? Yeah. Their reasoning was he is very much like their dad. Right. Okay. Well, that must have been an interesting formative experience. So if I had to choose, I think it might be John Shuttleworth.

[00:31:52] I don't know if you're familiar with John Shuttleworth. I know the name, but I can't think where from. It's Graham Fellows doing this old guy on keyboards. He's absolutely hilarious. Right. So he's an old northern fella who speaks like this. He's got a red roll neck. Yeah. And he sings songs like pigeons in flight. And that's the voice.

[00:32:19] And anybody who hasn't heard of John Shuttleworth immediately. Oh, I know who you mean. I've just seen picture of him. Yes. Yeah. Yes, I know who you mean. Well, he has got about 100 hilarious songs. And he also has a character. And Graham started doing him probably about, I don't know, over 30 years ago. Wow. And now he's the age that John Shuttleworth actually is. It's like Coogan catching up with Partridge, isn't it?

[00:32:49] So I'd have him for his songs. It would be a nightmare to live with because he'd always want to eat shepherd's pie every day, even for breakfast. And I suspect he'd never, ever shut up. But I'd be able to just sit him down and say, John, play us some of your songs about how you can never go back to Savory once you've had some sweet. Would you collaborate with him? Would you make songs with him? I doubt if he'd like that. I think he'd probably say on the surface of it he'd let me.

[00:33:17] But, you know, I think he's a one-man band, literally. I mean, I'd recommend a few ideas. But I think, you know, Shuttleworth, I mean, a very benign man. But there's probably quite an ego there. That's great. So you are locking down with John Shuttleworth. John Shuttleworth, a wonderful human. Big Train.

[00:33:44] The next thing I wanted to go on to was, as we're talking about Python, as I say, that was something I got into quite early on. The next sketch show I discovered, which I loved as much as Python, if not more, was Big Train. Yeah. I'd just like to kind of hear your sort of, I don't know, your memories of that. Like, how did that sort of come about? Did you know the cast before you worked with them?

[00:34:09] Was this your first time in like a sort of, in a kind of lead ensemble of a sketch show? Yeah. I mean, guys, a long time ago now. I, I, I, we were kind of herded together. I'd worked with Mark Heap on Brass Eye before. And, and I, and I knew of Julia and Simon and, and Amelia.

[00:34:39] And, but it's too hazy now as to where exactly we bumped into each other. But anyway, we all got together and, and it was Graham Linehan and Arthur Matthews. And it was Graham's first ever directing job, which he did magnificently, actually, with a very good DOP. And I just, we did it in the summer of sort of 1998, that first series, which was by far,

[00:35:07] I think that's the one that I remember as being particularly lovely to do because we all got on very, very well. It, it was great, great writing and, and, and it was just a very happy time. I just remember us doing those city sketches and, you know, football at lunchtime. Um, and, uh, we kind of had an idea that, uh, these were good, funny sketches and, uh, and, and, you know,

[00:35:36] didn't know how it was going to go, but we just thought, well, this is, this seems to be pretty quality stuff. And, uh, you know, I mean, you think about it, this is, these are the writers of, uh, father Ted. So, and they always had a lovely sense of, uh, of the surreal. Um, and, uh, just, they would do silliness for silliness sake. Yes. Um, so that was very, very much fun. Uh, the second, the second, uh, series was, uh, a couple of years later, I think, or a year later.

[00:36:05] And, um, I think, uh, Graham had gone there and Amelia and, uh, Julia had gone. And, uh, it was, um, it was still good, but, um, I still, I do actually prefer out of the two, the, the, the first series. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Was the pilot directed by Chris Morris? It was. Yeah. Chris did the, uh, the first, uh, the pilot.

[00:36:29] Uh, and the memory for that is, um, we did the, uh, Bee Gees sketch where the Bee Gees are in a wild west town. Yeah. Chuck a can. And, um, so we went to this, it was already built, I think. I think it was used for, for other film stuff. I think so anyway. Uh, this sort of mock at wild west town.

[00:36:54] And we, the final scene where I think Chuck a can walks off into the sunset. Yes. It was literally the last 30 seconds of light that we had. We, we were, it was an extraordinary sort of thing where we, there was no other way of getting that, that shot. And there was no way of coming back. And it was very important that we got it. And basically when it was cut, it's that the sun just disappeared behind the horizon.

[00:37:22] Um, so that's one of the things I remember. Um, but yeah, it was, uh, it was a lot of fun and then it didn't make an enormous splash, uh, when it came out. Um, but I think people found it online afterwards and it became very, very, um, sort of popular in certain circles after. Well, again, I think like for, for my peers, it was because it got released on DVD. Right. Right. And like, and it was kind of like, Oh, what's this?

[00:37:50] And it's got all the people from Brass Eye and Spaced and, and everything. So it was, um, yeah, we were, um, all just like absolutely loved, loved that, that show. And, um. Oh, thanks. No, no, no, no. Well, it's good, it's good that it's appreciated because you know, it, it, it was such, it was such fun to do. And it's funny cause I, you know, I don't watch, I don't watch stuff that I've done. So I've only ever seen it twice at the, twice at the most. Yeah.

[00:38:20] So at some point I ought to go back and have another look at it, I suppose. That's so, cause I mean, you've, as I said before, you've been in so many comedy shows. Have you not watched any of them back? No, no. Wow. Yeah. Just look at it, look at it once and, uh, and learn from any mistakes you can. And then it's, no, it's just kind of, I always feel the need to move on and, and, uh, and there's no, I don't sort of like going back. It's sort of, that's, that's then and this is now really.

[00:38:48] So, and you can't just sort of like just sit there watching yourself reminiscing and just saying, oh, I looked young then. There's another good reason not to. Um, but, uh, no, it's kind of watch it once, watch it twice and, and that's it. And then move on next. With Chris Morris, cause you've worked with him a lot, obviously on Brass Eye and Blue Jam and Jam and very, um, very dark comedy.

[00:39:13] Did you sort of get into sort of that sort of dark comedy via him or were you already well entrenched in very dark, quite sinister comedy? Yeah, I'm not sure I was. I'm not sure I was. Uh, you know, sometimes, um, Chris would present us with a script and I'd go, oh, Chris, what is this? And he'd sort of, he'd give a certain wry look.

[00:39:39] Um, but yeah, sometimes we just thought, God, is this actually going beyond the pale? Well, but it was always, I mean, especially when you heard it back, he just went, yeah, it was well worth it. It was well doing that. So, but he's one for, he's one for pushing the boundaries of it, pushing the envelope. Yes. To employ the old cliche. Um, and, uh, and so it's good to have someone sort of like nudging you from behind saying, go on, do try that. Um, which I possibly wouldn't have done under my own steam.

[00:40:09] Um, but, uh, it was, it's great working with Chris. It was always great working with Chris because, well, first of all, he's such a nice bloke. He's just the nicest bloke and, uh, he's kind and funny and, and, uh, great to be around. And he's got this, this brilliant energy about him, which is effortless for him. It's just kind of, he's sort of, he burns bright and, um, and, and obviously it's good to be around that kind of energy.

[00:40:38] And, and he's just got such great ideas and, and, uh, and, and he's got a way of expressing himself about how he wants them. And, and also you're definitely allowed to have your input into it. So you're not just some kind of meat puppet. Yes. Um, so, uh, so there's a, there's a two way sort of creative process going there. So all in all, very, very satisfying experience, uh, working with him. And, uh, you know, I, I would do it all the time if I could, I'd be quite happy to.

[00:41:08] Well, cause in speakers, you're kind of, as you said, that sort of ambience kind of psychedelic kind of, the feel of it. Did you, when you were making Blue Jam, which is another one that is, you know, kind of pushes the envelope, so to speak. And you had that very sort of, um, very sort of twisted, uh, warp records music going, going on and everything. Yeah.

[00:41:36] Was that sort of a first of fusing music and comedy in that way for you? I, I think it was for me. Yes. I mean, of course, when we were recording those sketches and, and I would say actually doing Blue Jam out of all the jobs I've ever done was possibly the most fun and the most satisfying. Because it was, it, it was just brilliant fun.

[00:42:01] You know, we would sit there and we would, uh, try a pre-written script and then Chris would get us to improvise. Oh, great. And then it's come back with, uh, with any of the improvisation that worked and incorporate that in. And of course we were just sitting there dry in a basement, uh, in, uh, wherever it was off Tottenham Court. Really? And then when we heard them, we thought, well, what's he done?

[00:42:31] What's he done to us? And he'd put it through this, this mix, this wash of what he'd done and turned it into something quite extraordinary. So it was sort of, it was thinking, are we, is that us? That's so interesting. And I think they, they still sound extraordinary. Oh, it's, it works of art. Completely. So you had no idea that he was going to do that with it. You had no idea of the kind of. No. Wow. He neglected to mention it to us.

[00:43:00] Because even the bits where you like the voices gets sort of sped up and, and the pitch gets higher and it's very unsettling. Um, and, and, and, and, and, and as I say, you've got that a little bit, not as, um, unsettling, but you've got it in speakers where you're, the pitch either goes a little bit higher or, or it's. It can do. Yeah. I, I, I can't, I mean, I don't know if Martin's listened to Jack. I'm not sure if he's listened to Blue Jam.

[00:43:30] Sometimes I, sometimes I think to myself, I suppose this is a little bit Blue Jam, but those kind of like in between music bits. And, uh, yeah, probably Chris has heard it. He'll be going, Oh, I see. Um, but, um, I take it, he should take it as an homage and an, and an unconscious one as well, because that's just the way it tends to turn out. But it's great. Cause obviously your comedy is suited to that style as well.

[00:43:55] I mean, what was, when you were saying about how Chris kind of gave you that nudge of, um, go on, do this sort of thing. Can you think of anything specific where you were a bit hesitant of like, this is really, um, quite horrible or something like quite, quite dark. There were numerous, numerous ones. There are too many to mention. I can't sort of, I can't sort of, uh, think of one really though.

[00:44:22] They've just, um, specifically, but yeah, there were quite a few where I just thought that's so horrible. But, but, but then you go, but it's also funny. It's also funny as well. I mean, it's kind of, I guess it's not my, it's not my natural direction on speakers. My one, I, you won't get much cruelty in there really.

[00:44:44] And, uh, I don't, I, I, I don't really like, I, in a dark world at the moment, I prefer to keep things, uh, fairly, uh, chipper. Yeah. Um, and, and let's just be nice, you know? So I, and, and, you know, which, you know, it doesn't necessarily always give up the most fertile grounds for comedy.

[00:45:07] But, um, yeah, I, rather than sort of having a pop at things or going anywhere too, uh, unpleasant, I think I do prefer to just sort of, uh, be lovely and, and, and silly for the sake of it. Well, that's nice because it's then it's proper escapism. Yeah. You can just properly shut off from everything. No, I mean, it's great. Did you, um, when you were in Brass Eye and Everything with Chris Morris, did you, was that just an audition? Or had you met him before, worked with him before, and you were brought into that fold?

[00:45:37] Um, of actors? I can't remember. I honestly can't remember. I can't, uh, I probably auditioned. I'm sure I must have, I must have auditioned. And maybe that, maybe it was because I had done stuff with Armando and I'd done a couple of, um, and, and also I'd done a couple of, uh, partridges. And also I think Chris was aware of, uh, of, of Stu Lee and Richard Herring.

[00:46:06] So maybe Chris might have sort of like seen me around. Of course. In those kind of things and, and probably thought, well, give him a try, uh, or, or got me in for an audition most probably. Nice. And try stuff. But I'll have to ask him because, I mean, you know, it's over 30 years ago now.

[00:46:21] It's so interesting hearing that, like, it's not, as you say, you're a bit hesitant at first kind of thing because you, you fit so, so well into, into those, into those shows, into Jam and Brass Eye and the very sort of dark realms. Yeah, well, I, I never would have been hesitant, uh, working with, uh, with Chris. No. Because I knew his stuff and all the stuff he'd done on, uh, day to day. Yes, of course. And on the hour, whatever that one was. Yes.

[00:46:50] And, uh, and, and I'd heard of his stuff before and, and just thought, God, he's got some really interesting stuff going. So, so he already had a great rep, um, uh, going around, uh, at the time. So, to, uh, when it came up, whatever, whatever form it was of the chance of working with him, I know that I would have been going, oh, I hope this works out. That's just there. Tough shit. It's what? Nothing. Rude word. Next question. No, no.

[00:47:19] What was the rude word? Shit. Was it really? Good heavens. You frightened me to death. What about you girls behind? He's not your dad, isn't he, this geyser? So one of the first things that was ever talked about on this podcast was in episode one with Tom Crowley, who I believe you've worked with on, um, Bills Included. Right, yes. And, um, we talked about your Sex Pistols Amish sketch. Yeah.

[00:47:46] Which I've always wanted to ask you about because I would love to know where, where that came from. Um, was that an in-joke that got out of hand? Or was that, for those who, people who may not have seen it, it is a replica, complete replica of the Sex Pistols Bill Grundy interview with you and Matt Berry playing John Lydon and Sid Vicious and Peter Serafinowich playing Bill Grundy. And you're all Amish.

[00:48:15] Ah, Sid Vicious wasn't in the Pistols, uh, then. Oh, was it? Oh, was it not Vicious? Who was it? No, it was, uh, Glenn Matlock. Uh, this is, I mean, it's the very first, uh, Pistols appearance and yeah, it's, uh, Vicious. Hang on, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Vicious? Vicious? Yeah, yeah. I mean, Glenn, Glenn Matlock, um, got sacked a couple of months later for liking the Beatles, which is, uh, which is absolutely brilliant. Um, so yeah, it's pretty vicious. Um. Oh, apologies. That's all right. Yeah, yeah.

[00:48:45] But, um, you're all Amish and it is, it's just the, it's the interview word for word and exactly like even down to the most nuanced detail. Yes, it was. It's brilliant, but yeah. Absolutely detail, absolutely every detail is faithfully reproduced.

[00:49:01] Every single movement, uh, every single vocal, um, hiccup, um, and also the camera shots and also the, uh, the background and, and the furniture, the set, all that kind of thing. And I was writing for, it was, it was on my show, wasn't it? It was on, it's Kevin. Yes.

[00:49:22] Yeah, and I asked, um, Arthur Matthews if he wanted to, um, submit any sketches and he just said this and he just sent a piece of paper and it said, it's the Sex Pistols, um, interview, but they're all dressed as Amish. And the only thing that I changed was, um, I think that he wanted, I think he might have wanted everybody to have beards. Uh, and I, and, and, and he wanted everyone to have exactly the same beard.

[00:49:49] And I said, no, I, I don't think, um, the women ones should have beards. And I, that might have been, might have been wrong. And, and it's, and so we very, very lovingly reproduced it and it, it sort of went down very, very well. And we heard that Steve Jones, uh, Simon Pegg told me that he talked to Steve Jones in LA somewhere or something, and he'd seen it and thought it was funny. Oh, really? And then years later when, uh, Danny Boyle did that, uh, biography of, uh, the Sex Pistols,

[00:50:18] he had me in to be, uh, Bill Grundy. Oh, that's wonderful. That's it. So we went to, I went to the rehearsal with the, uh, the young guys playing the Pistols and Danny had a TV set up, uh, and he showed, he showed them, uh, the Amish sketch. And they just sat there completely bewildered as to what's going on here? And he said, right. And, and Danny went, that's see him there, that Kevin, he's that bloke there.

[00:50:46] He said, so, and so they were going, oh, we'll get it now. So that was very, very funny. I said, well, that's nice of you to get me in. So, so I've been in the, uh, Pistols interview, uh, twice as two different people. I'm not sure if there's anyone can match that. Which one do you, uh, do you think you're, you're more suited to? Well, I think, I mean, when I was, I, yeah, the, the Amish one was when I was younger. So it was kind of, uh, and, and, and it was fun to do the, uh, the, uh, the Johnny Rotten

[00:51:14] one sort of the naughty boy swearing, uh, on television quietly and then saying he didn't. Um, but at the same time, it was good being the, you know, the sort of drunken blowhard that, uh, that Bill Grundy was. Poor sod was, uh, never recovered from that interview. That was the end of his career. Really? Wow. Oh my God. That's it for tonight. I'll be seeing you soon. I hope I won't be seeing you again. From me though. Good night.

[00:51:42] Uh, the last question I'd like to ask you is how do you see the future of sketch comedy? Do you think it is more of an online sort of sphere for it? Or do you think TV is slowly bringing it back with like SNL and various, various shows? Do you think it's more an audio, it's more kind of successful in an audio venture? What's your take on? I can't say that I've got an official take on it.

[00:52:08] I mean, I do know that, um, it's not very popular with the commissioners at the moment, sketch comedy, um, on any of the sort of the mainstream channels anyway. And part of that reason I think will be because it is too expensive. Um, so it, you know, when you've got a new set, a new set of costumes, it's kind of, there's, there's big budgets have to be all there, which is boring. Um, but, uh, there's stuff still going on online, which, uh, which is okay.

[00:52:37] And, you know, I, I think it's, it's fallen out of favor a bit. There was a time when there was always sketch shows on and, and they seem to become certainly on TV. They've become a lot less, uh, visible. So I don't know if that's going to continue or whether it's, uh, whether it's a little, um, dip, uh, in popularity and it's going to come back. I hope it does. Um, because, uh, I think it's a, for some reason I think it's a young person's game and, and,

[00:53:04] and I don't know why I think that, but I've never seen, um, a sketch show with older people in that's, that's been as sort of as a, as attractive as, as one with younger ones. And I don't know why that is, um, but it seems to be a young man's game. So young person's game. Sorry. Guess it's because it's so frenetic. Maybe, maybe it's that. And, and, and, and because you've got to, because you've got to have, I think you've got to have young characters in it.

[00:53:29] You've got to have people who are, who are experiencing life sort of like for the first time as, as well as sort of having the old fogies and all that kind of thing. This is not very eloquent. Um, but yeah, I hope that it will come back and I hope that it carries on that people carry on making it themselves online and, and, uh, and, and gaining sort of traction viewing wise that way, because you can say a lot with, uh, with sketches. You, you can just be silly or you can sort of, you can have a comment on lots of things

[00:53:58] in a very effective way. Yes. And, and you can satirize and, and you can, uh, illustrate lots of things about, uh, modern society, uh, and old societies as well in a really entertaining way. So there's definitely a place for it. And, uh, it's a, it's a source of, of great, um, inventiveness, uh, writing wise and performance wise. Yes. And it's always good to be in a sketch show to have this new character to do and then

[00:54:25] that one, and then that one and that one, and it stretches you and that's always a good thing. Yeah. Oh no, absolutely. Well, I mean, let's say it's, it's great that you're doing this with speakers because as you say, it keeps you writing sketches. It keeps you kind of, um, just, just being in that place and that kind of a sketch comedy and in that space. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I'll try and keep it as long going as long as possible till I, till I fall asleep in the saddle and fall off the horse.

[00:54:57] This is the final section of the podcast. Uh, it is called Chain-ja of character. This name has been gifted to you by Peter Serafinowicz. Oh, Peter, what have you done? You're, you're going to love this. The name he has given you is Listwin Boo Bars. Yeah. So who is Listwin Boo Bars?

[00:55:22] Well, Listwin Boo Bars, uh, owns a chain of vape shops in Bath. Uh, and when you say a chain, there's, there's three of them. Right. There were 10, uh, but they've all exploded, um, in the last, uh, four or five weeks. All exploded. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because, uh, you know, there's a lot of thing about, uh, vapes that we don't know. And, uh, I don't know, more and more vape shops seem to be exploding.

[00:55:47] Listwin Boo Bars, uh, he has his vape shops and, uh, he's, uh, he's 49. Yeah. Um, and, uh, he's, uh, actually only about four foot 10, um, but, uh, quite, quite hefty. And, uh, he is a big, um, paragliding fan. Um, and that's where he does most of his, uh, vaping, uh, about sort of 300 feet up in the air. Oh my God.

[00:56:15] Um, and, uh, he's, he runs around from shop to shop. He runs all of them at the same time. So he, he's, he doesn't want to employ people to staff. He has to do it himself. So there's a mile between each shop. So he's actually very fit. Wow. So is it, is it like one's open in the morning, one's open in the afternoon, one's open in the evening? Uh, no, they're all open all the time.

[00:56:39] Um, so he spends, he spends about sort of 20 minutes in each one and then runs over to the next one and then over to the next one and then goes back to, uh, where the first one started. So just as well, the others exploded, I guess. Well, he would, yeah, it was killing him. Uh, he's been married five times, um, to the same woman. And, uh, but I think it's going to work out this time. And, uh, he's a Marxist, um, but votes reform.

[00:57:08] So no one can, uh, really, uh, work that out. Wow. Okay. Um, and, uh, doesn't eat anything but banana custard. And what's his reasoning for that? No one knows. No one knows. He gives a different, he gives a different reason. Each time you ask him, he says it's for health reasons. He says it's, um, because, uh, it is something that spiritually, uh, invigorates him. And, uh, after he's had a bowl of banana custard, he feels closer to God.

[00:57:34] Um, he says that half of it is because he can also double it up as a, um, body lotion, uh, in the shower. Um, and, uh. For when he goes paragliding. When he goes paragliding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and, uh, he's never had a holiday because, you know, he can't afford to. And he's actually opened on Christmas day as well. And, uh, so he's, uh, he's a, he's an unusual man. Yeah. It sounds it. I mean, what did he do?

[00:58:02] Because obviously vaping hasn't always been a thing. What did he do before then? Well, he's the one who invented vapes. Oh. He, he, he invented vapes, uh, in the, uh, probably early eighties. Okay. And, uh, and, and was subject to, uh, industrial espionage. And, uh, had the idea nicked off him, uh, cause he'd written it down on a, a bit of paper

[00:58:31] in a pub talking to this, uh, local, um, alcoholic. And then somebody who was at the bar happened to, uh, be listening, uh, to them as they were talking about it. And, uh, when he went to the loo, he had, uh, he had it on the, uh, on the beer mat and, uh, immediately, uh, took it to somebody who was able to turn beer mats into a multi-million pound empires. And, uh, and as a result, uh, you know, he's a bit bitter about it.

[00:59:00] Well, I'll bet he's never seen a penny from it. Not from, not as much as he could have done, but he does make quite a nice living from the three shops. Uh, and as he's too busy to really spend it on anything else. Yeah. Um, he's got a lot of savings. He's got over 12,000 pounds in the bank. We know that for a fact. But he doesn't want to go on holiday. He don't want to go on holiday. It's just why his wife keeps divorcing him. Um, uh, but he says that, uh, Christmas next year, they're going to go to the Bahamas.

[00:59:28] But I don't know if he's a liar. Yeah. I mean, that would be nice. I mean, how come the last three have not exploded? Um, I think it's only a matter of time. Oh, so they didn't, they didn't all explode simultaneously. It's like one by one. They're dropping off. One by one. They've gone over the last four or five years. The writing's on the wall. Yeah. I mean, I think he's got his head in the sand about this. He just seems to think that, uh, these, these are going to be all right.

[00:59:54] Um, but, uh, I, I think there's a, there's a tragedy going to be unfolding there, but fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. Oh, Listwin. Well, that was Listwin Boo Bars. Thank you very much for that. Thanks, Listwin. When you did Look Around You and you did the Macadamu song, did you just make that up? No, I didn't. No. Um, really? Robert Popper wrote it. He wrote it. He wrote the words. He wrote the chords and he gave them to me and said, right, learn that.

[01:00:23] And I, it was absolutely brilliant. And including the great big, uh, falsetto bit. Amazing. And I seem to remember we recorded that at nine o'clock in the morning. So, uh, I had to limber up my voice, uh, sample. And then within sort of two days of that coming out on the telly, somebody had done a sort of a club mix version of it, which was actually quite good. Wow. That's amazing. Can you tell me the name you were going to pass on to my next guest?

[01:00:53] Yes. Your next guest, um, should familiarize you with Lenny the Neck Armitage. Lenny the Neck Armitage. That's him. Who is Lenny the Neck Armitage? We shall find out on the next episode of Out of Character. Exciting. In the meantime, Kevin, this has been such a delight. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me on and keep up the good work. And, uh, you know, there's all power to your elbows, mate.

[01:01:53] Hello, this is Alex Lynch here. Thank you so much for listening to this episode and indeed other episodes if you have done. If you like the show, why not tell people about it? You could do this by either leaving a review on Apple, rating it on Spotify, shouting about it on social media, and then the old-fashioned but probably most effective way of just telling people about it. Any support really does help push the show to more listeners, and it also gives me a little less anxiety that I'm not wasting my life with my audio endeavours.

[01:02:21] Anyway, that's enough from me. Thanks again. Bye.