DAREDEVIL: BORN AGAIN + HIS WEIRDEST VILLAINS

[00:00:27] Hello, welcome back to Comics Are My Happy Place, where me, Colin Hoult and my friend Nick Kirk chat about comics being our happy place, being the things that we love most in the world. When I say comics, I mean comic books. We used to be, as an entity, we used to be known as A-Bomb to Zax, my favourite Marvel character, where we talked about all the Marvel characters, but now we've decided to talk about all comics generally and just make it a bit more of a general chat.

[00:00:54] But we are still going to be putting those Marvel Comics characters into the list of over a thousand. We're currently nearly at 300. We're going to be throwing a few of those in today. So what's the main topic of today's wonderful chat, Nick? Today's main topic is the weird villains of Daredevil.

[00:01:17] The weird villains of Daredevil, partly because Daredevil Born Again Series 2 has just come out on Disney Plus, which is a lot of fun. I suggest you watch it. Nick, you've watched quite a lot of it, haven't you? I've watched series one of Born Again and I haven't managed to watch series two yet. Fair enough. It's quite an ending, Nick. I won't spoil it for you. My goodness. My goodness. It's quite a moment. Daredevil, I love Daredevil. It's really made me realise how much I like Daredevil.

[00:01:46] But before we get into that, we're going to be talking about Daredevil, Daredevil Born Again, a bit about the original series, a bit about the TV series and a bit about Daredevil's weirdest villains or at least four of them. But before that, we'd like to talk about other things we've been reading recently. What else have we been reading, Nick? Do you want to go first, old friend? Yeah, I'll crack on. I have been reading a big chunk of 90s Nightwing comics.

[00:02:17] 90s Nightwing? Yeah. Is this Chuck Dixon? It is. It's the Chuck Dixon, Scott McDaniel run, which I never read at the time. So I was a big Batman guy back then and read all the main Batman titles, Catwoman, a little bit of Robin. But Nightwing sort of passed me by. I never really read Nightwing. So I got the compendium editions that DC's been releasing where you get about 50 issues for 35 quid, which is quite a good deal.

[00:02:47] Sweet. Sweet. Yeah, it's nice. So I thought I'd start ploughing through them. And I'm enjoying it, but I wouldn't say it's top tier stuff, if I'm being perfectly honest. It's nice to fill in the kind of gaps that I didn't know about, but I'm quite enjoying it.

[00:03:02] The ongoing storyline is quite a long and slow build up, rather than it doesn't feel like it's the modern, everything has to be done in six issue chunks for the trade paperbacks. It does at least feel like there's quite a long, slow, ongoing story, which I don't feel you get so much with a lot of modern issues. You don't get that anymore, do you? Just plodding along. Yeah. Normally introducing some kind of new love interest who works at the florist down the road from him or something like that.

[00:03:31] And he keeps bumping into that kind of thing. It's his landlady in this. It's his landlady. Nightwing, of course, is Dick Grayson, the original Robin, who then grows up, becomes Nightwing. I mean, how old is he meant to be? About 20? Is he still 20? He's been 20 for 80 years, probably.

[00:03:51] Yeah, I think he's probably sort of early 20s at this point, because he's been Robin, he's been Nightwing with the Titans for a while. And he's sort of quit the Titans at this point and just going out on his own. I guess it's kind of like Batman, but a bit Peter Parker. Yeah.

[00:04:11] Is sort of what they're going for. So he is still sort of the Dark Knight and fighting scary thugs. And it's a bit grim and gritty, but he's always got a smile and he's jovial and a bit younger and a bit cheekier. But yeah, they are quite generally they are quite boring, I think, Nightwing comics, because he's just a sort of another. You kind of want Batman and Robin.

[00:04:36] And I think probably the latest Robin is the best. That's a bit sacrilegious. Damian Wayne, who is Batman's actual son and is a kind of little killer. Yeah. And and also the son of Talia Al Ghul. So he's pretty violent. But no, 100 percent, 100 percent agree on that one. I think Damian Wayne is the best Robin by a long shot.

[00:05:00] He's he's fun. He's violent. He's interesting. And he's at his Bruce's actual biological son. So it's more interesting to have that biological father son dynamic as opposed to the sort of adoptive one that he's had with the others. I mean, still horrendous child endangerment issues. Oh, yeah. He's a terrible parent. But at least it's his own kid. At least he's not doing it to someone else's kid.

[00:05:27] Putting them in literally in the line of fire. But Nightwing, yeah, just quite boring. I was thinking about Chuck Dixon, though, because I've been reading. Yeah. Shadow of the Bat was a series that came out in the 90s. And my friend Paul, who he got all the issues and I read them in his house and thought they were amazing. But I did my usual thing of getting really into them and wanting to talk about them all the time.

[00:05:54] And I think I put him off buying anymore because I just let's just talk about these. I mean, we were probably like 14 or something as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they are great. And Alan Grant, who is RIP, Scottish writer from 2000 AD. We love our 2000 AD. I don't think created Dredd. Did he create Anderson, maybe? He certainly wrote a lot of Judge Anderson stories, didn't he?

[00:06:20] Yeah, he wrote all the main Judge Anderson stories. So he was mostly associated with her. I don't think he's a great creator or not. I want to say great. I mean, you know, renowned for creating anything in particular like Pat Mills or John Wagner or whatever. No, in the 2000 AD terms, no. But he did write quite a lot. I think he did a lot of Dredd spin off type strips as well, particularly for things like the magazine.

[00:06:43] Yeah. But I like how he's applied that to Batman in Shadow of the Bat. And he does create Mr. Zars. I think he's created him, who has become quite a boring character in comics and movies. He just appears as a kind of killer. But when he first appears, he's great. Very Hannibal Lecter. They keep him in just this like concrete tube with just his mouth is all you can see. And his body's covered in scars where he's made a mark for every victim that he's killed.

[00:07:10] So his body's covered in these tallies of five, which is very sinister. And he's he's I don't think he's metahuman or anything, but he just has these weird eyes that like we're talking about sometimes when something is designed. Yes. In such a way to just express what's really going on, but it's not literally necessarily meant to be literally what they look like. No.

[00:07:33] And he's really good at twists. So that first story, Batman is locked up in the new Arkham, which is you've got a new a new Jeremiah Arkham is the great grandson of the Arkham who built it originally from the Grant Morrison story. So the one who went crazy and and and so you have that element going on that continuity and also just so many lovely twists like the end of issue one.

[00:07:58] He's going through Arkham and talking about all his different patients and how he's applying a different kind of psychology. So Scarecrow, he's just like making this bird appear with holograms, which is silly, but like he to terrify him and he's kind of like we're not going to give you any creature comforts. We're just going to put you in a state of terror to sort of break you through it through your madness or something.

[00:08:22] But then the last door he goes in, he goes, ah, now our newest patient who is the most troublesome yet or something. And it's Batman tied up in a straitjacket. It's such a good ending. So that was that was the first issue of Batman that I bought. And that was what got me into Batman comics. Wow. Last Arkham was the first Batman one I picked up at the news agents around the corner that and I think it was Venom in Legends of the Dark Knight was the storyline at the same time.

[00:08:49] So those are the two things that got me into Batman comics. So Alan Grant's responsible for my Batman love. That's that's so funny. So we're the same. Yeah, I think I love his Batman. I feel like Grant Morrison and JLA did a changed Batman kind of forever by doing that thing where he just goes, huh? Yeah, he just has he just his speech ball just has HH for huh?

[00:09:14] Yeah, I turned him into this kind of like super clever, grumpy, cynical. Yeah. Distrustful, which is really good and really funny and really nice. But it it did change him forever, I think, to a degree. And I actually quite like this Batman where there's something dashing about him still. Yeah. But something very of the people trying to help people.

[00:09:39] But there's also a Judge Dreadiness about him where he is also he can get he seems to be very angry a lot and calls people punks and stuff like that. I kind of prefer him to Judge Dredd because the problem with Judge Dredd is even though the stories are great, you can never be on board with him because he's essentially a fascist. Whereas this is the elements of Dredd you like, but he's he's he's Batman, you know, he's he's the hero. Yeah, he is still the hero. And I love how the stories are mainly one and done.

[00:10:09] They're mainly like. Yes. Nice little self-contained stories. I love how they've there's always a social element. So about psychology or there's one about the homeless, one called The Nobody, where a guy's been shot and he comes. He knows Bruce Wayne is Batman and he's a homeless guy. And it's genuinely I was reading this morning. It's genuinely very moving. That's a really great run.

[00:10:30] That Shadow of the Bat Shadow of the Bat run for and the other the other main characters that Alan Grant created were the ventriloquist and Scarface were his creations. Oh, brilliant. So there we go. That's our other comics we've been reading this week. But let's get to the main event Daredevil Born Again. Should we talk about the series a little bit first? Yes. Should we do that? Yes. So you've never seen any of it? You'd never really seen the Netflix series?

[00:10:57] No, I've watched like maybe four or five episodes of the first series of the Netflix Daredevil. But I think when it came out, I didn't watch all of the first series. And then more and more of them kept coming out and I was getting further and further behind. And now there's like 161 episodes to watch. And I just don't know when I'll get around to watching all of that. So obviously, through a bit of backstory, Netflix got a deal as Marvel, the MCU was sort of taking off.

[00:11:23] Netflix got a deal to do Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and The Defenders as a kind of... Punisher. And The Punisher as a kind of same but separate universe? Well, I think originally it was supposed to be fully part of the MCU, but not too interlinked with it. It's very sneaky how Marvel slash Disney, whoever it was, kind of disowned it. Yeah. Then stopped them doing it.

[00:11:51] Then just said, no, actually, we did that. Yeah. Like kind of a rewritten history as if they did it all. No, we always had that. And we're just going to do it again. Yeah. But as if there's no break. One thing with the old Netflix series is they are way too long because apparently Disney were pushing them to do more episodes. I don't know why. Or it wasn't even Disney then, I don't think. I think it was Marvel. Yeah.

[00:12:18] There's just definitely 12 episodes where there could be eight, for example, which I think the new Born Again series doesn't do. I think that just does do eight. But my kids were like wanting to watch it because I was watching all the Born Again ones. And they were like, why is that 18? Oh, why is Daredevil 18? My son literally just like, oh. And I thought, well, maybe it's all right. You know, and I watched the first episode. Then 10 minutes, I didn't watch it with them. I watched it myself as in the old series.

[00:12:47] And 10 minutes in, he's literally finding a container full of trafficked women with men slapping them in the face. So I was like, yeah, maybe this isn't, this is pretty adult stuff actually. Charlie Cox, fantastic. Yeah. I think really, do you remember him from Stardust? Oh, was he in that? Yeah, I watched Stardust and really liked it. Yeah, he was kind of the hero. Oh, I hadn't realised that was him because obviously I watched it when it came out and didn't know who he was.

[00:13:16] I think I enjoyed Born Again. Yeah, let's talk about that specifically. I think it helped that I know Daredevil comics. So the fact that I hadn't watched all the Netflix ones, I know enough about the Daredevil-Kingpin relationship that I didn't feel lost by not having watched the previous series. I was like, yeah, I get what's going on here and I can keep up with it. I think Vincent D'Onofrio is brilliant as Wilson Fisk. Yeah.

[00:13:45] I really, really like him. There's something very appealing about him. It really is fantastic. I might have talked about it before, but what gets me is he's so emotional because you could play that character completely cold and, but he's so angry and upset. And when someone comes and gives him bad news, like, you know, Daredevil got away or whatever, he looks like he's going to cry, like his whole face, but it's so terrifying.

[00:14:13] But also I feel like he's, the way he plays him, there's clearly like a genuine love for his wife as well. It's not like a, in the first series part of the storyline is they're having difficulty in their marriage as a result of stuff that happened in the previous series that I hadn't seen. And I like the fact that he's, you know, he clearly does want that to work.

[00:14:39] It's not just a marriage for the sake of power or status. He genuinely seems to love her. I like the art gallery idea that he, and I don't know if you've got to this episode, but there is a bit where they kind of flashback to when they kind of first meet and he goes into the gallery and sees the painting.

[00:14:59] Which I think is in an older series, but you sort of see his drive up to the gallery and she's chosen this big white painting that they've all told her not to pick. Like, what the same, why are you putting that up there? Basically, she says, someone will look at it and which is very prophetic of her. Someone will look at it and see themselves reflected or something, you know, and Kimping does and looks at it and sees and gets completely lost in it.

[00:15:26] But it's really interesting because when he's driven up, he's a bit more classic gangster-y, angry. And it's like that meeting changes him. And he, you see that he was completely lacking art and beauty. And yeah, I think that's what, and you haven't finished the second series, I know, but there is a through line.

[00:15:49] And as an actor, there's a right to the end where he's, even though he's done terrible things by that point, like more and more horrific things, but he's like, he is this child who needs beauty and who could have, you know, has these huge emotions. Yeah. The world wouldn't let them come out. So they came out in a horrible direction. And it's really interesting. I think that does expand on the character because I love the character in the comics, but I feel like the character in the comics never really gets there.

[00:16:19] He's an amazing presence and an amazing, terrifying villain, but he doesn't have another element. And I'd say I saw the new Punisher, one last kill, one shot. And sometimes I like him, but sometimes I'm like, oh, will you just stop? Frank is just so broken, but in a kind of quite demonstrative way.

[00:16:42] It's like, I have to constantly be showing everyone I'm in pain and I'm like, and it doesn't land for me because, well, I guess partly I feel like that guy would just be shot straight away. Because he's like, but when you do see him going into action in times in the second series, I think of Born Again, he might not have got to it, but where the Punisher appears. And he's doing a lot of kind of almost like Kung Fu or whatever they call it, like John Woo style.

[00:17:10] And he's not doing any of the kind of standing back holding a minigun like in the comics, is he? It's all very like... Up close. Up close, but with a gun. But yeah, but you enjoyed Born Again. Would you give it a... Yeah, thumbs up from me and I'm looking forward to watching season two. How many horny heads, how many horny heads out of 10 would you give that first series? Oh, definitely a solid eight horny heads out of 10 for the first. Horny heads. Eight horny heads. I, Bullseye, did you like him?

[00:17:39] Felt a little bit wasted. Bit of a cop out. Just give him the fucking suit. It's not that hard. It's like... Yeah, I didn't feel like they did that much with him. So that felt like a little bit of a waste. I mean, obviously he has a key moment in the very first episode. Yes. Which I was not expecting. Get rid of Foggy Nelson, which is a bit hard. That actor, he was someone who the viewers were all a bit mean about, weren't they? And it was a kind of way of...

[00:18:06] I guess it was a way of getting him out, but also making it feel purposeful and not just recasting him or something. Yeah, I mean, it does drive the story. The difficulty I have watching these things sometimes is with my long-term comics reading head on. There's always a part in the back of my head going, did he really die? Are they going to undo this at some point? Is it, you know... Yeah. Because they've done that in the comics before. It'd be hard to undo though, wouldn't it? Unless he's in on it is one of the things.

[00:18:34] Matt, I had to stop you being Daredevil because you were tearing yourself apart and all this stuff. You're tearing yourself apart, Matt. So the original series it was based on, I meant to reread that because I bought... Last year for my birthday, my little treat to myself was a full-sized... Actually, I haven't bought one for my birthday this year. I must. But it was one of those big oversized, you know, Daredevil, Born Again, hardback. It's the size of a bloody car, Nick. And it's wonderful. But I still haven't read it.

[00:19:04] And I just started reading... I have read it before. But Daredevil, Born Again is the quintessential Frank Miller series. But it's not the series with Elektra. It's not the bit where Elektra gets killed and reborn and blah, blah, blah. So it's the series where it starts very upsettingly, probably the grimmest thing you could see

[00:19:24] in comics, which is where Karen Page, Daredevil's longtime love interest, has become a drug addicted porn star. Yeah. And is desperate for heroin. So she sells Daredevil's real name to some nefarious guy. What a horrible start. But very well done. I was thinking, is there a way you could do that in the TV series without...

[00:19:54] In 2026, without it feeling just like... I don't think you could. Awful. I mean, it's got a fridging feel to it, hasn't it? No, I don't think you could, could it? It's not the sort of storyline you would want to see now. I think overall the storyline itself is great, but that element of it has aged poorly, I think. But in the 80s, those were breaking ground, wasn't it? To talk about stuff like that.

[00:20:19] Because I guess what you were doing was taking these characters who were very two-dimensional and very sexist characters, as in she was the receptionist who Foggy and Matt are both just horny for constantly and kind of sparring over and she's just... Yeah. But then they don't empower her. They make her a drug-addled porn star, as I say. Yeah. It's making it worse, if anything.

[00:20:48] But anyway, so that starts... But I love that it is at least, you know, it's like a proper crime story and it starts with a kind of small incident that spirals into this massive thing where, because the kingpin knows his name. And I love how he spends six months doing it. He doesn't do... He, like, slowly unravels all of Matt Murdock's life. So he gets up one day and finds that all his money is frozen. The IRS are investigating him.

[00:21:19] This policeman who is, like, beyond reproach and is like a local hero has accused him of, you know, tampering with evidence or with a witness or something like that. And through the course of that issue, just all of Matt's life falls apart until it ends where his house literally explodes. It's so good. And because his house explodes and he goes, he knows it's kingpin and it's like, you shouldn't

[00:21:48] have signed it. Now I know it's you. Such a good ending. And it... I have to say, as good as the TV show is, it's not a patch, is it really? Yeah, I thought it was an unusual choice for them to pick Born Again as the subtitle for the series because it's so specifically tying it to such a classic comics storyline that you're sort of setting yourself up for disappointment amongst people who know that storyline really well.

[00:22:16] Because it's always going to invite comparison to it. When it's... It's sort of influenced by it, but it doesn't really follow that storyline in the same way. Weirdly, they've called it Born Again and it follows mostly the Charles Saul run about Mare Fisk and Muse and all that sort of stuff was in a much later run of Daredevil. So they've sort of taken the title of an earlier run and then the storyline influenced from a completely separate run.

[00:22:43] So it's a bit of an odd choice, I think, to use that as the subtitle. I think... Well, I think the Born Again is a bit like when they called the Spider-Man film Homecoming. I think it's a bit cringy, like almost corporate speak. Sort of like Homecoming because he's come back to Disney. Sort of like Born Again because he's been reborn again on it, I guess. It's kind of... On Disney+. I do find that the title sequence a bit funny as well, where it sort of is all the... Crumbling statues.

[00:23:11] All the crumbling stuff, but then it like reforms as Daredevil. Yeah. And then at the end, his horn like goes into place. It's kind of cool, but also a bit cheesy. Crazy. So let's finally talk about Daredevil's four weirdest villains. Maybe it was five. I can't remember. Five. Five. Oh my God. That's a lot to talk about. Let's bash them out. So who is the weirdest amongst these villains?

[00:23:38] He probably had some other even more weird ones, but we read some really old Daredevil and you forget because of all the Frank Milleriness and the Kingpin-ness and the Grimms-ness. They're really fun. Yeah. He's a very different character. He's very jumping around and laughing and he's always kind of serious because he's blind. So they always make the sort of, oh, but I'm blind. You know? Yeah. There's a little bit of that going on. There is that one storyline.

[00:24:05] I think it's in the Mr. Fear one where Karen's trying to get him to have an experimental operation to fix his eyes. And she's really angry that he won't. Why won't you just do this experimental operation on your eyes? And he's like, no, I don't want to. The undertone to that feels like her saying, oh, if only you would fix your eyes, then maybe I would love you. Yeah. It genuinely feels like the subtext, which is a little bit icky. There is a bit where he says she could never marry a sightless man.

[00:24:35] Yeah. There's a lot of that. I get that they kind of wanted the soap opera element to keep people coming back to be, like you said earlier, that triangle between Foggy loves Karen, Karen loves Matt, but Matt thinks Karen loves Daredevil. And then Matt also thinks Karen loves Foggy. So it just is needlessly convoluted. It's like the whole Clark Kent loves Lois, but Lois loves Superman thing. It's like, yeah, you've done that. Yeah.

[00:25:00] I think, I thought that was quite an interesting twist that you've got Foggy and Matt both love her. It's not really a twist, is it? In fact, it's very obvious, but it's, there's one where, well, let's talk about the gladiator first, shall we? Yeah. Because there's one where Foggy goes to this costume maker who makes really good costumes of superheroes and wants a Daredevil costume because he's trying to trick Karen into thinking

[00:25:29] he is Daredevil, which I thought was a funny twist. But Foggy is, of course, quite out of shape. As he puts the costume on, looks much how I imagine I would probably look if I tried to put that costume on. Just sort of look at him and go, maybe I don't quite look like Daredevil. But it leads to a series of funny, funny hijinks, which are all played quite seriously, but where he ends up basically having to fight the villain and getting the shit kicked out of him immediately. And he's like, I'm not actually Daredevil! I thought that was all quite fun.

[00:25:58] But I like how Matt looks really pissed off. He's like, I wish Foggy would stop dressing as Daredevil. It's really annoying. He gets angry about it, doesn't he? At the end, he's saying stuff like, right, I'm going to have to do something about this because he's making me look like a fool. I'm like, oh, he's really quite, he's not happy. He's not happy about it at all. But yeah, Gladiators, so he runs this shop. He looks a bit Vincent Pricey. He's bald with a big tash. It's not really Vincent Pricey, but he looks like a kind of old school villain.

[00:26:27] I like him. He's also a bit suits you, sir, isn't he? He's very much the tailor, kind of. And he's very into his costumes. I don't quite understand his motivation. I was going to say, I don't understand how his business works because Foggy comes in and A, he seems annoyed to have a customer in his costume shop. Then Foggy tries to buy the Daredevil costume and Gladiator says, that's not the right costume for you anyway. You can't have that. I'd have to alter it.

[00:26:55] He just seems really determined not to have any business at any point in the shop. Terrible business model. And he gets really angry that people want to dress in the costumes he's made. And then he kind of goes, all right, fine. You can have this Daredevil one. And then he agrees to sort of set up this fake fight so that Karen can see him as think that Foggy's Daredevil. But then when he turns up, he's like, actually, I've made a supervillain costume. I'm just going to kill you. I'm the Gladiator now.

[00:27:24] He's absolutely off his rocker. This guy, Melvin Potter. It seems to be, I couldn't really work it out. He sort of seems to be saying that he hates everyone in costumes. And the way that he will get rid of everyone in costumes is by dressing up in a costume himself and beating people up. Yeah. Is he actually against costume? Is it like, is it a bit like me with doing stand-up comedy where it's like by the end of, I've now kind of stopped doing it.

[00:27:54] I've taken a long break and just, just acting darling. But like where I did get to the point where I was like looking at the audience thinking, why are you here? What do you want? What do you, what do you want from me? He's a bit like that. He's like, yes, I'm amazing at costumes. Not that I'm saying I was amazing at stand-up, but he's like, yes, I make the best costumes. Why do you want them anyway? What's so good about them? They're all shit. Let's just burn it down. You know, he's, I like, I like him as a character.

[00:28:22] I like that he's mentally unstable. Yeah. It is quite, it's quite fun. I like that whole vibe of why have you come into my costume shop trying to buy a costume from me? Damn it. It's like, yeah, cause you're in a costume shop. Yes. And then when, when he turns up and they fight, it's, it's, there's a lot of crates. There's a lot of dock stuff going on classic daredevil dock and crates, but it's very foggy, which they use a lot. But Wally Wood's artwork is fan bloody tastic. I have to say. Yeah.

[00:28:51] I really liked it. There's a lot of like, who's that figure in the distance? Is it daredevil? He looks a bit little and fat, but yeah, I think it is a lot of that going on. He calls himself gladiator. There doesn't seem to be any Roman connection. He's not like Maxi Zeus in Batman where he sort of gets hit on the head and thinks he's an emperor. It's not only that. Yeah. But he, he does have big sores attached to his, which spin. I'm not sure where the motor is.

[00:29:18] I don't think gladiators had like spinning sores on their, on their wrists. Don't think so. Very glad at all. That's a man who wants to lose his own fingers as well, isn't it? He's completely psycho Melvin. I like Melvin as a character. As it goes on, they do lean into this and he does become a kind of sad case where they're all aware that he's mentally ill and he does start to think he's a real gladiator. I think at one point, he's also really big and strong, isn't he?

[00:29:48] He's a big lad. Yeah. He's massive. He's probably the hardest tailor. Yeah. The hardest maker of costumes that ever lived. But yeah, I like, I like him for that reason. I think he teams up with Daredevil a few times and there's a few, he, he's very much a victim of other villains like poisoning him and sending him on a rampage to cause chaos and stuff.

[00:30:15] I feel like, is it in the Bendis or Brubaker runs that he's sort of almost more of an ally in the later issues. And that's the version I remember more. I like him. Um, so then we've got Mr. Fear from issue four, I think, or six. Six. That is the maddest one ever. I thought Mr. Fear was quite a respectable villain, but he is more, more insane. Again, there's a lot of costumes going on, but this is a man rather than being obsessed with costumes, he's obsessed with waxworks.

[00:30:46] And all he ever wanted was to find a potion that brings waxworks to life. But I'm not, I think that's a really out there dream. Yeah. I think like to make that your life's work. Yeah. I'm really good at, so he's not a scientist. He's a, he's someone who can make, he's a Madame Tussauds. Yeah. He's a, he's a talented sculptor and model maker. He was also slightly mad. I like the qualification.

[00:31:15] Slightly mad. He's only slightly mad. He's not, he's not like properly mad. He's just slightly mad. Again, we've talked before about the Daredevil Batman comparison. And similarly, a lot of his villains are, they do have actual mental illness, right? Yeah. And that's played upon as opposed to just, we want to take over the world. There are often people who have got a very weird obsession that brings them into, which,

[00:31:44] which means they end up getting beaten up basically for it. Well, with Mr. Fear, his weird obsession gets sort of ditched really quickly because he then inadvertently creates a fear gas instead and decides, oh, I'll just use that. He gives up on the waxworks to life straight away as soon as he's invented fear gas. Yes. And I'll be Mr. Fear. I'll make a costume and a gun. Yeah. It's just because they're talking about Batman and Daredevil. He's basically the Scarecrow as well. He's basically the Scarecrow. He's almost exactly the Scarecrow.

[00:32:12] But I just like the fact that he made waxworks, all of superheroes, which is weird. A lot of the villains are quite creepily sort of into the superheroes, aren't they? In that way. Or at least these two are. But in making them, he's just, I guess it's a Pygmalion thing. He's looking at these statues. He's going, oh, if only they could come to life. But it's not like he's created Pygmalion, this beautiful woman that he's so perfect.

[00:32:41] He wishes she was real. He's just made waxworks of people who already exist anyway. It's like if you're obsessed, why are you that obsessed with the coming to life? Because they exist. Yeah, there's already a version of that. Yeah, there'd just be two. But one of them would be made of wax. I like the idea that he's not even a scientist. But so he just starts like, well, if I just mix all these chemicals together, maybe that will bring a waxwork to life? Oh, no, it creates a fear gas. All right, fine.

[00:33:11] I thought he was, yeah, I thought he was a major villain, but his name's Lawrence Cranston. No, that's the second one. His name's Zoltan. Zoltan Drago. What's funny is there are three Mr. Fears, but all of them have only appeared about three times. So they just come back and Lawrence Cranston becomes Mr. Fear. And apparently there's also one called Alan Fagan.

[00:33:38] Alan Fagan, he's the bloke your dad worked with in the 80s, isn't he? Alan Fagan. Alan Fagan's not going to be there, is he? But apparently him and Lawrence are currently both Mr. Fear. So I don't know how that works. I like the fact that as well, as soon as he's become Mr. Fear, he says, right, well, I need some helpers. Who should I choose to help me? Dr. Doom? Baron Zemo? No, they're too powerful or clever. I know, the ox and the eel. They're the people that will help me. Right.

[00:34:08] Yeah, those are the immediate ones you go to next. The ox and the eel. Yeah. The slippery eel. I think the eel has the power of being really greasy, doesn't he? A bit like Multiman. You can't hold him. You just can't bloody hold him. The eel's power, he's sort of greased up like a pig. That's Mr. Fear. Yeah, then perhaps the classic weird Daredevil villain is, of course, Stilt Man. Stilt Man. A man on stilts. Yeah.

[00:34:36] It's a beautiful design. Again, Wally Wood looks incredible, but is just a very tall man. Yeah, it's just a man walking around with very long legs. And everyone gets very worked up about the fact that he's just got very long legs, as if this is somehow hard to defeat or really. He's just a man on really long legs. That's all he is. They keep talking about, oh my God, he's just disappeared. He went around the corner, he disappeared. I'm like, well, he's just retracted his legs, hasn't he? Yeah, he's just gone small again.

[00:35:05] He's just getting small and big. And I like that the police, at one point, they're like, we'll just ram into his leg and knock him over. But then it's like, oh my God, the leg's lifting up. How will we ever beat him? It's just impossible to beat this man on stilts. I mean, they're very big stilts, to be fair. Just push him. You can't push him, he'll lift them up. But if you push, ah, I think I've worked out the floor of their logic, just push both. Yeah, that's what I meant.

[00:35:35] Because you can't lift them both up. Yeah, okay. Okay, yes. But then also, I like the fact that he gets really tall, and there's a police helicopter, I think, and he just throws some grenades at it. So it's not like he's got, he's not using the stilts. He's just high enough that he can lob a grenade. But I like he throws the first grenade, and he goes, that was just to blind you. This one's to blow you up. I'm like, what do you think grenades do?

[00:36:06] Also, he says, no ordinary human can cope with the power of stilt man. I still think just pushing him over is pretty. It is that Dr. Octopus thing as well, where it's like, just because he's got octopus arms, he's not that dangerous. I mean... He's just got some extra metal arms. Yeah, it's like a man with four knives. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? It's not like, it is dangerous.

[00:36:33] You say that, I think the way they portrayed him in Spider-Man 2, the Alfred Molina in the Samurai in Spider-Man 2, I think that I genuinely felt for the first time that Dr. Octopus was quite threatening. I'd not really thought of him as a threatening character. He was great. He was great. And they were very thick arms. Yeah. They were thick, but they're still like, you could just shoot him. He's still... Yeah. Yeah. But his real name is Wilbur Day.

[00:37:01] In the story, they really push it that Wilbur Day comes to Daredevil saying that a man has stolen his inventions. And the man who stole inventions, they make the most evil looking sinister man ever. So you're like, oh, it must be stilt man. But then it turns out actually Wilbur Day is stilt man and not the other guy. It was Wilbur Day all along, stealing from the other guy. Bit of a twist. Yeah. But not a huge twist.

[00:37:30] There's one thing I really like in this and some of the other issues from this time is there are lots of panels where they have cutaway diagrams of things. So there's a cutaway diagram of Daredevil's cane. There's a cutaway diagram of Daredevil's flat and his secret apartment underneath. I love all that sort of stuff. I love a cutaway diagram. I'm a big sucker for that. Wollywood's great at them. And they are trying to push Daredevil more like Batman, aren't they? They are trying to make it more gadgety.

[00:38:00] And they're really, I mean, I think they lean a bit too much onto the cane. Yeah. I think the cane's a bit like, it's like, yeah, just because he's blind and he has a cane. You don't have to, it doesn't have to be like a cane that can do anything and have like a microphone in it. And that's like a secret recording device. It's like, he could just have other items. The thing I noticed about his apartment in the cutaway is it says he's got his apartment.

[00:38:25] He's rented the one underneath and he's got a sliding bookcase and a secret stairway that goes down to the apartment underneath. So he's basically done a load of work to knock these two apartments through, which he rents. That feels a bit off. Dad, surely you wouldn't get permission to do that. Yeah. I hope he's got long term rent there. Smash through. Yeah. Also like what he's got underneath is just a gym. You could just have that anyway. It doesn't need a sliding bookcase to go down to it. He hasn't got like a big computer thing or Batmobile. He's just got a gym.

[00:38:56] Aha. But I like that. What I do prefer about Daredevil to Batman. I know Batman's the more iconic one, but I do think I prefer Daredevil ultimately. Because ultimately he is human and he is fallible and he does get things wrong and he's a bit pathetic sometimes. And he's kind of, he gets scared and he gets annoyed and he gets angry. And I think with Batman, sometimes he's just too perfect and cool. Yeah. And I like that Daredevil is just an absolute mess all the time.

[00:39:26] But even in these early ones, he's kind of always got girl trouble and trouble with Foggy. And yeah, it always feels like he's failing a bit. Like I don't think the Frank Miller thing of just him really drowning and losing everything and falling apart. I don't think it's come out of nowhere. I think you can see even in these early ones, he's always a bit, a bit of a mess up. Yeah. Yeah. And it keeps coming back in sort of later runs as well. His mental health is never good.

[00:39:56] And it's often, it's often a recurrence that his own mental difficulties cause him problems. And he doesn't, he doesn't do the work to deal with and resolve them in the right way. Thus exacerbating his problems even more. Yes. He, he actually, the way Batman just always has that Sherlock Holmes thing where he just kind of, he knew all along. He had it all planned out. Yeah. Whereas with Daredevil, it's like he makes terrible choices constantly, especially with women.

[00:40:23] And he's constantly getting married and he's a bit Richard Burton, Liz Taylor, actually. He's quite. Yeah. His solution to a lot of things is, I'll just marry her. That's his solution to a lot. We've got a very weird character called Bushmaster. No, Bushwacker. Bushwacker. Bushwacker. There is a Bushmaster, I think. But this isn't Bushmaster, it's Bushwacker. I meant to look it up. Is Bushwacking a thing? I feel like I've heard the term Bushwacker before, but is that just because I've read it in comics?

[00:40:52] It's a cocktail, apparently. Oh, the Bushwacker. Rum, Kahlua, creme de cacao, cream of coconut and milk. Delicious. Well, this character is not delicious. His name, I've forgotten. I don't think they say it in the issues we read. Even his wife calls him Bushwacker. Okay. Because he makes her. He's a very, very unpleasant man. I do not like him. Apparently he starts off as a Catholic priest. Right.

[00:41:22] Which isn't a plus either, is it, to be fair. But he starts off as a Catholic priest. And then turns to become Bushwacker. That's a weird little detail, but I don't think it features in here. But this is a story where it's Anna Chenty, who I think is great. She followed Frank Miller, which was a big pair of shoes to fill. And I think she did a bloody great job. I think it's, in some of the stories I like as much, if not more than the classic Frank Miller ones.

[00:41:52] Because I just think she does really interesting studies of masculinity and violence and society and all that stuff. Yeah. And sort of just general kind of social awareness and social issues brought into it as well. But probably hadn't been happening a lot. Did she, she wrote the long shot one that we talked about a while back, didn't she? Yes, she did. Wolverine pops up in this. And I like the way she writes Wolverine. I think he's really interesting.

[00:42:21] He's hunting down a serial killer who is killing mutants. And he's killing mutants whose mutant power is artistic. So they can create music or art or light or colors or that kind of thing. And I like the way she sort of handles his rage and anger. Sometimes I think the way people write Wolverine and make him just like, you know, is a bit tedious. But I feel like he feels like a very rounded character.

[00:42:51] And his righteous fury feels very, I can get on board with it, Nick. It feels like there's a justification behind his murderousness in this one. It's not just Berserker rage. It's because he is preventing someone who just will keep killing. You know, Wolverine's view is if you just arrest him, he'll get free and do it again. You know, there's no redeeming this person.

[00:43:19] The thing I found weird about Bushwacker was his power, which they just seem to... So he can turn his arm into a gun. Yeah. And so he's clearly not a mutant because he kills mutants. And I think there's one line in the comic that says the CIA did it to him. Yeah. Although I was reading apparently it turns out he is a mutant. Right. He's a murderer. I thought that was a nice little real drama-like element. Yeah.

[00:43:47] She's worried about him is the reason that she wants help, effectively. She's worried something's going to happen to him. Yeah. I know I liked that element of it. But yeah, like you said, I think Anna Chenty's just a very underrated writer. I don't think she gets enough recognition. I think a lot of people like her. Like her. Yeah. In the greater scheme of things, I guess she's not really known. But I also get the feeling from listening to interviews with her and stuff, she's not that bothered. Right. I think it matters to her, but I don't think it's like, I will be the greatest.

[00:44:17] Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So finally, perhaps the greatest character of all, could he be the new number one above Nightcrawler in our list? It's Henry Hawk, a.k.a. Birdman. Just one of the anime men. This is another early Daredevil issue where Wally Wood has written and drawn it. And Stanley has written a quite patronising little thing at the top where he said, Wally's always said he'd like to try writing, so let's give him a go.

[00:44:46] Because I want to go on holiday or something. And then at the end he says, well, now that Wally's got that out of the system, it's back to old Stan to sort it all out again. Yeah. Again, using my days as a comedian, it reminds me a bit of a sketch group where someone would want to do a particular sketch or a character that they created and the other person in the sketch group might be a bit like, fine, yeah, do your bit if you want. Yeah. Do like five minutes. And it's like, right, we finished. Okay, let's go back to what we're actually doing.

[00:45:16] Do you know what I mean? Like they'd want to do a clever little character. They'd, I was the person. I was the person creating the little characters. Well, look at me now, buddy. I'm not going to, I'll use the phrase, I'm not going to throw shade on Wally Wood. But the villain in this issue is called The Organiser and works for the organisation. I mean, it's not the most imaginative. So The Organiser, a man in a purple hood.

[00:45:45] And it also says you'll be shocked when you find out who he is. And you don't. No. You don't find out. I think in this, I did skip ahead to the next issue and I think you find out, but I think it is just one of the blokes who in the background of the story, like he's in it, but he's not, it's not like, you know, it's not a big twist. But anyway, The Organiser has a group called the Ani Men who are animal-like men. But this is a touch of genius, I think.

[00:46:14] Rob, they're not people who have been transformed into animals in a Doctor of a Row way or people who have... Specific abilities that are animal related. Well, I was going to say that, but they do kind of have that. It's basically that they are people who look a bit like animals and have names that sound like animals. So he has thought, my genius criminal master plan,

[00:46:39] I will get these people who look a bit like animals to dress up as actual animal men and then do crimes. What could go wrong? So you have a man called Monk Tefler, I think it is, who is a bit like a gorilla. He's got a big slopey forehead. And you've got a frogman. His name's, is his name Frog LeBlanc? I think his name might be Frog LeBlanc. But he's a scuba diver, so he's a frogman.

[00:47:09] He is literally a frogman. Then you've got Henry the Hawk, who looks a bit like a bird in a sort of... He's got a long neck and a sort of beak-like mouth. And then Catman, my favourite is Catman. I don't think you ever find out Catman's real name, but I think the reason Catman gets made into Catman is because he's got a big beard and whiskers. Yeah. He's got a big moustache that looks like whiskers. Yeah, so that when you put the cat mask on,

[00:47:37] his beard and whiskers can poke out the bottom to complete the cat look. That appears to be the sole reason he's been made Catman. That's the only benefit. I had this Catman costume. It's great logic. All of these characters are mad. I love all these characters. Is it as mad as Mr. Fear? I think it's madder than Mr. Fear. It's madder than Mr. Fear, the anime men. Yeah. Daredevil ends up fighting them all.

[00:48:05] And it's sort of nothing he really happens. But it's a beautiful sequence of images to look at. Yeah, the artwork is great. I wouldn't bother reading the words, if I'm honest. And there's another lovely cutaway of the organiser's lair. And again, it's just a sort of room, isn't it? It's not particularly interesting. Oh, yeah. He's built so much, hasn't he? He's got like a way for Frogman to get in. And he's got a way for Birdman to swoop in.

[00:48:33] And computer rooms and gymnasiums and all this stuff. Again, go back to comedy days. This makes me think of someone who sets up a sketch group or something. But does loads of work on the name and the poster and all that. And the PR side of it. And gets all their friends and all their family in to see this show. But then doesn't really do any work on the show. Or doesn't really accept that the... Hasn't written anything.

[00:49:01] The central premise and idea is terrible. I.e. getting people who look a bit like animals to dress up like animals. And that's how we'll become the biggest villain in New York. It's like... It does make me think of that quite a lot. He's put all the... He's got all the gubbins. All the sort of superficial stuff. He's got the lair. He's got the costumes. But the central premise is built on sand. Yeah. So there you go. But who's the weirdest, Nick?

[00:49:32] I think Bushwhacker's arm is very weird. Yeah. I don't like it. I don't like it. I think it's horrible to look at. It feels unpleasant. There's something really unappealing about Bushwhacker. Obviously as a character he's supposed to be. But just the physical changing of his arm into a gun thing is... It's got a Mar-a-Lago plastic surgery gone wrong. Yeah. But as a character he's the most real I guess.

[00:50:00] Well he's from the gritty 80s isn't he? Where everyone's really brutal and horrible and beats up their wives and stuff. But I don't think he's the weirdest. I think it's probably for me between Mr. Fear just for his origin and Stilt Man because he's just a man on stilts. Really? More than Birdman? Henry Hawk? I mean he's just a man called Henry Hawk Hawk in a bird costume.

[00:50:25] I mean I would go for him or Stilt Man but I think Mr. Fear wins just because his dream is to bring waxwork figures of superheroes to life. And that's all he wants to do to the point of violence. But he accidentally in doing that creates a fear gas and becomes Mr. Fear. I just I think that's wonderful. Everything about that is wonderful. Yeah I think you're right actually. I think it's got to be Mr. Fear for that because that is the weirdest origin of any superhero.

[00:50:55] Also he's beaten so easily in that Daredevil just pretends to be one of the waxworks. Yeah. And he walks past him he goes Daredevil looks a bit real and he's like that's because I am Daredevil. You shit. Okay so where do we put them in the list? So let's we've got a classic weird villain in Pace Pot Pete at number 88. Do we put any of them above PPP? Gladiator.

[00:51:25] No I don't think I don't think he goes above Pace Pot Pete. Stilt Man? I would maybe put Stilt Man above Pace Pot Pete. Oh Machine Man at 84 he's got stretchy extendable legs. That's true. But are they stretchier or more extendable than Stilt Man's? I think I'd put Stilt Man above Machine Man just because he's silly. But he's a Jack Kirby classic. All right maybe one below Machine Man then. Thank you. Okay and then Gladiator.

[00:51:55] Oh we've got Frog Man and Mr. Fish. Where do they fit with those? Just below Mr. Fish. I'm going to put Gladiator below Mr. Fish. Mr. Fear. Yeah the stupid Origin is doing a lot of heavy lifting for Mr. Fear. I'm going to put him one below Gambit. Yeah let's do that. I like that little giggle I made then as if we've done something really naughty. It's a bit like what's the name? Theresa May running through fields of wheat. Ooh.

[00:52:24] I can't believe I dared to put him one below Gambit on this list we've created. Who's left? Bushwhacker. Ugh. I'm going to put him one above Baron Zemo the first. Okay. Acceptable. Yeah that's fine. I don't know what it is. I just really didn't like that gun arm. There was something about it I found deeply unpleasant. It's unpleasant. I didn't like it at all. And then we've got someone else. Did we do Birdman? No. Six? Seven?

[00:52:54] Something like that? I just love so much that they look like animals so he makes. You're right he should be right near the bottom. Let's put him one below King Cobra. Okay. Great. And the other Annie men do not feature in the list I'm afraid. It's who you know that gets you on the list obviously. It's who you know. It's who you know. The last fact I'll say about Birdman and the Annie man. Ridiculous though they are. They're actually there from the classic X-Men issue where Thunderbird is killed.

[00:53:22] The first X-Man to die. Yes. Do you know what? I was thinking why have I read something with the anime recently? I started reading the uncanny X-Men omnibus that goes from giant size onwards. There you go. That's the one where yeah Claremont does make it that they have actual animal powers. Which I think is less fun isn't it really? Count Nefaria they're working for in that one. It's a really weird choice. Why is he?

[00:53:51] I like that when like a really epic storyline happens. Like Thunderbird dying is massive isn't it? Very emotional and Cyclops is broken by it and all this but it's done by... Count Nefaria and the Annie men. Birdman, Catman. Yeah. It's like really stupid. Alright lovely. Well thanks for listening everyone. Okay. You can support us on Patreon where you'll get our even longer version of this fantastic episode

[00:54:16] of even more about wonderful thoughts and words. Nick, if you were one of those Annie men who would you think you'd be? Probably Frogman. Frog? I think you've got a bit of Catman about you. It's the beard isn't it? I did see you dressed up as a cat the other day as well for reasons. There is that as well yeah. I do occasionally dress up as a cat. Not for personal reasons purely for professional ones. For professional reasons it's perfectly normal. Oh nothing wrong with that.

[00:54:47] So next week I don't know what we're going to talk about. It's exciting. Who knows? Maybe we'll take one of our steps away from the list and talk about something different. Maybe we'll talk about Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow. Oh yeah. Yeah maybe we'll do that. And then we'll chuck a couple of Marvel characters in there of course because we must complete our list. Great to chat to you. Must go. Thanks everyone for listening and we will catch you again next time. It's a telescopic leg shuffling from me. It's a delightful whiskers and beard combo. Shuffling from me.

[00:55:16] Goodbye. Bye everyone. Hank Pym sucks.

[00:55:50] This podcast is part of Podomity. The UK's podcast comedy network. Why not laugh at what else we've got? Visit Podomity.com To be continued.