SPIDER-NOIR & ABSOLUTE BATMAN

[00:00:31] Hello, this is Comics Is My Happy Place, with me Colin Hoult. Comics is my happy place, it's the place I feel most happy. When I say comics, I mean comic books specifically, pictures and words put together usually with some sort of superhero or villain involved. It's not my only happy place. I also have cheese sandwiches, jiggery pokery, not sure what that is.

[00:00:59] Just popped in my head. Boats, you know, just looking at them. I've never been on one. I have been on one. But you know, anyway, my point is comic books are my happy place. And I want to do a podcast where I talk to my pal Nick about comic books and how much we love them. Hello, Nick. Hello, Colin. Comics are also my happy place as is curry, shenanigans and roller skates.

[00:01:27] She's mucking about. She's mucking about. Roller skates? Have you ever actually been on any roller skates? Oh yeah, I used to be a keen roller skater in my youth. Is this true? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was good on a pair of skates. And so I can ice skate a little bit as well. Oh, I'd love to see you on a pair of roller skates. Ah, it's been a long while. So you can ice skate as well? A little bit. Did someone teach you like a wise old man or something? Oh, yes. This was the 80s. You could be taught by wise old men in the 80s. Actually, it was fine back then.

[00:01:55] They just used to knock around on street corners teaching youths. There was hundreds of them. Yeah. Thousands everywhere. When did you last put on a pair? Roller skates a long time, like probably not for 20 odd years, but ice skate about six, seven years ago. I skated probably more frequently than that because they do them every like Christmas at places like Canary Wharf and Somerset House. They have like a skating rink. So I've definitely been on one of those recently. I take my boy and we just cling to the side sort of pulling each other along like two drunks.

[00:02:24] So just edging along, but we still have a great time. He said he had a fantastic time. I said, really? I thought it was horrific, but lovely. All right. But comics is a happy place. Now, some of our listeners may have maybe fans of our previous version of this podcast. It is metamorphosized into a new creature. Previously, it was called A-Bomb to Zax, my favorite Marvel character,

[00:02:52] where me and Nick and previously other people went through every single Marvel character from A all the way to Z. We are going to keep doing that at the end of each episode because we are completists and it's on our bucket list. And if we don't get to Zax, then the world will end. We have to we have to get to Zax, don't we, Nick? We have to do it. Otherwise, something horrible will happen unless we sort of touched our foreheads five times in a row. I don't know, something like that.

[00:03:18] Something like that. So we need to we did it partly because, a I think a lot of people didn't know what the hell A-Bomb to Zax meant. Not a good start. Also, it was quite restricting as much as we love doing it. Also, I just wanted to get DC, super awesome, infinite, ultra, whatever it's called, which is an app where you can read them all on your iPad and then forget them. Because I find when you read on iPad, you've got no idea what you just read,

[00:03:48] but it's fun at the moment and that's all that matters. And I wanted to read the absolute universe Batman and Superman. And then I ended up reading a thousand other comics. I was like, Nick, let's just talk about everything. I don't know if we're going to be adding those DC characters to our list of currently 250 characters of which Nightcrawler is number one. And serial domestic abuser Hank Pym is the bottom slash Ant-Man. I don't know if he, I think he only did it once to be fair, but you know. Yeah. That's once was enough.

[00:04:18] Once is enough. So yeah, there you go. So we're back. We said we'd be back. So that in mind, the new feature of this podcast is going to be what other comics have you been reading? Nick and Colin, where we talk about just some random comics we've been reading. So Nick, I've dived into the DC universe because I've missed like the last probably 10 years more or less. Right. Because I've mainly just been reading Marvel.

[00:04:46] First of all, absolute DC. Wonderful fun. Have you read any of them? Yes. I so far have read about 13 or 14 issues each of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman and about the first six or seven of Flash, Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter. Oh, well, exactly the same as me then. I think that's exactly what I think that's pretty much all of them you can get. I think they're like gold dust.

[00:05:15] They're what that it's a lot of fun. It's an ultimate universe type thing. But for DC, I think the idea I did read the epic that came before it, I think the one called absolute power. But like all DC epics, I sort of enjoyed it. And I remembered, oh, God, it's a DC event. It's going to end in just a giant creature that everyone's punching at once. It's convoluted. I think it probably did. Well, it's just it.

[00:05:44] To be honest, they're always just great setup and then boring, aren't they? They just become boring because it's an infinite power you can never be. And then it's like, oh, actually, it's issue six. Let's just be. Yeah, let's just be with all the punching. Now, the basic concept behind the absolute universe is dark side has created this separate universe, which is completely infused with his power. So the absolute universe is fully infused with dark sides power.

[00:06:14] So it's fundamentally evil. And then the core concept behind these absolute books is can you still have hopeful heroes in a fundamentally evil universe? Yeah. So that's the sort of core concept behind this absolute spinoff. So they still sort of tied it into the main universe. But you don't really need to know that in order to read these books. No. I think you can just you can just launch into them without really knowing that's the backstory.

[00:06:42] If dark side was the creator dark side, the sort of ultimate villain of the DC universe, if he was the creator, what would they be like? But it doesn't feel like one of those what ifs or elsewhere. No, which are often a bit naff, aren't they? They rarely work. But this feels fantastic. And I love that you've got Batman is just little changes like Batman is working class. I really like that. Well, they say he's working class, but he still seems to have like massive cars and ridiculous equipment.

[00:07:12] Yeah, I'm not quite sure where he's getting all that from. But is it he's like an engineer? Yeah, he's sort of taught himself and still got the skills, but he hasn't come from a rich, privileged background. Which is so much better because when you read that and then you read normal Batman and his dad, he's from this horrendously privileged world. And his dad is sort of telling him all these things like you need to help people and always put others first or whatever. And you think, yeah, but you're like a billionaire. This doesn't it just doesn't tally, does it?

[00:07:42] I know. I mean, I still I still love the classic Batman, but it is hard and it is harder now to engage with that. I mean, to be honest, in recent years, they did strip away a lot of his money to stop him from being like a massive billionaire to now just just a multimillionaire. Still essentially the same though, isn't it? Really? Yeah, he's still he's still ridiculously wealthy, but just not as obscenely wealthy as he once was.

[00:08:08] But they're also the other thing about absolutely is that absolutely brutal. And there's a bit where Batman just like gets properly experimented on and cut up and his head shaved and it's really horrible. Yeah, it's really upsetting. And the Joker, of course, is a kind of Elon Musk type billionaire and they do the twist that the Joker is kind of the Batman of that or he's the Bruce Wayne. Yes.

[00:08:35] He's got a mansion and a butler and he's even got the secret clock stairway behind the yeah, father clock on that. Oh, it's really cool. I was in two minds about the Batman one. I didn't like the fact that he's sort of cartoonishly hench. He's like over the top in a sort of Frank Miller Dark Knight Returns kind of way. He looks sort of he would look ridiculous walking down the street even without the costume at that size. Yeah, like you would notice him just walking around that ridiculous size.

[00:09:05] So I wasn't that keen on that. Which they sort of reference, don't they? Yeah. But also he looks like he wouldn't be able to move. He's so big. Yeah. Which I guess like we were talking before about the whole kingpin thing where it's like it's an artistic interpretation that then people take to be actually that's what he looks like kind of thing. Yeah.

[00:09:26] And I take it a bit that way that it is almost like stylized or whatever, but it's still makes him feel quite hard to literally I find him literally quite hard to look at. Yeah. It's quite upsetting because he's too big. He looks he looks like Bane. I think it's the problem a lot of the time. And so, yeah, I wasn't convinced by that. Oh, and Bane's like a Titan. Bane's like as big as a house or something. It's really weird.

[00:09:50] I think that I struggled with the kind of amped up oversized level of everything in Batman that was a little too stylized for me, but it's fun. The last thing I'd say on that with the Batman thing is, yes, but I think the good thing about the stylized overly cartooniness of it stops it from being what the Ultimates was, which is just, oh, what if they were real? Yeah. Everyone would be horrible and drugs or whatever. I think you're right.

[00:10:20] Have you got any any comics you want to talk about? Yes, I did reread the Grant Morrison animal animal man run. Oh, having having not read that for many years and it's good. It still holds up. Actually, you can tell it's a fairly young writer and he's trying to get out a lot of his ideas about animal cruelty, vegetarianism. There's a lot of that. He's obviously working that out himself as he's writing it.

[00:10:45] But it's interesting to see even at that stage quite early in his career, he's still writing stuff where he's seeded things in an issue that will pay off 10, 12 issues down the line when, you know, an animal and travels back in time. And you see these kind of appearances in previous issues that suddenly make sense when you get towards the end.

[00:11:06] And he's really good at that kind of tying together time traveling stuff by seeding it quite in advance in something that he's writing on a month to month basis. Really good. And really was like a kid, like you say, had just gone over to America and I think was even like 22 or something. I don't think it was even very early 20s at this point. And it's pretty, it's pretty assured stuff for someone that that young.

[00:11:31] It does show you though, how you can really do amazing stuff when you're young, because weirdly, as he's got older, he's non-binary as well. So they. Sorry, they. No, no, I should have been saying they, I did know they were non-binary. Yeah, becomes less incoherent when they are older. And what I do love about Animal Man, even though it does go into all the meta stuff and Animal Man meets Grant Morrison at the end. Big spoiler, sorry, but that it still holds together as a plot, more or less.

[00:12:00] There's a few bits where you're like what's happening now. But generally, I think it's pretty. And the first six issues actually, before it goes into the meta stuff, are actually really strong. Very simple plotting and, but very effective. I guess what you, what you kind of forget now is at the time this came out, there weren't a lot of comics like this, where they were starting to treat superheroes as more serious characters.

[00:12:27] There's characters with like real world problems in this way. I know you could say like the, the Marvel ones that we've looked at from the sixties. He's always given people like Spider-Man, some real world problems, but still the fantastical stuff was the bigger element. I would say in Animal Man, the real world stuff is slightly more to the fore. There's still some weird stuff in there.

[00:12:50] Like the character of who Grant does rename by the end of the character of Boana Beast, who gets renamed Freedom Beast by the end of the run. Which I'm afraid doesn't sound as good as Boana Beast. But that character's power is to, is to merge animals together in a really horrible, hideous way. It's properly sort of freaky and terrifying rather than here's an exciting superpower of merging two animals together. It's like, oh my God, he's put those two animals together. How horrific.

[00:13:19] And it's sort of in pain and angry, isn't it? Yeah. Because it's sort of like a gorilla mixed with a lion or whatever. But I think that's a very Alan Moore thing is it's take that was quite an innocent, childish idea and go, if you actually did that, it would be horrific. And yeah, not fun. I like also how Animal Man, Buddy Baker is quite like a Daniel Clouse type character. And he's always sort of, he's got families. He's not exactly middle age, but he's definitely getting on.

[00:13:47] And he's a bit like, yeah, this all feels a bit silly, you know? And he's kind of, yes. He says something about, I remember he's got a line where he says, yeah, I spent time with the Forgotten Heroes or something. Yeah, I wasn't sure, really sure what was going on that or why I did that. That was a bit weird. Like, yeah, it's like he's got carried away with something and he's a bit like, I sort of cringe a bit about all that now. There's definitely a feeling of him saying, well, should I be doing this? You know, I've got to provide for my family.

[00:14:15] Should I really be dressing up and running around? Should I maybe get a proper job? Yeah. And they're struggling, aren't they? Sort of things that weren't really being asked. Yeah, and his wife has now got to that point. Ellen? Is it Ellen? Ellen, yeah. She's a great character. Like, they're better characters, the wife and kids, than any of, you know, most characters in comics, basically. And normally they'd just be, you know, sideline kind of characters traditionally, wouldn't they?

[00:14:41] But spoiler warning, there is a genuinely sort of horrific moment where they all get killed off. And at the end of the run, Grant Morrison sort of explains to Animal Man, oh, well, you know, that's just the sort of thing we're expected to do now to make you interesting and relevant. You've, you're supposed to have this sort of trauma. Yeah. It's amazing that commentary about comics getting darker, though. When was that? Like, 85, was it? Yeah, about 88, 89, around there. And that's still going on.

[00:15:10] They still, you still read comics where they're like, oh, we're meant to be dark nowadays. You're like, fucking hell, are you still talking about this? This has been so long. I like how Ellen, though, talks about him being Animal Man a bit like if you were used to be in a band. And it's like, yeah, if you, if you feel like you want to go and do that gig, that's fine. Just, you know, I will need you up in the morning and helping out because we've got to get the kids to school. And, you know, are we going to, I am trying to get my, my own work going at the minute and all that kind of thing.

[00:15:39] I've put your Animal Man jacket out for you. It's great, but it doesn't feel like naff jokes about, you know, like kind of old school jokes about Lois Lane washing his tights or whatever. You know, it's like. It doesn't feel like she is exasperated by him being that way either to the point where it's detrimental to their relationship. She understands that's kind of who he is and that's what she's bought into. So it feels like a very genuine. I quite like that it feels like a very genuine relationship between them, which, again, you didn't really get a lot of in comics at that time.

[00:16:08] It's really sweet and loving and it's, and it's a very equal relationship. Traditionally, girlfriends and wives of superheroes were just there to be rescued. I guess Lois Lane's different to that in a way, isn't she? And Mary Jane to some degree, but they're still primarily that. They still start off as that. Great. I lent it to my friend who is into comics, has read like Saga and other things. Right. But he can't quite understandably get his head. Do you know what I mean?

[00:16:37] He can't quite commit to these kind of things. And he gave it back after about a year. And it was one of those where he's like, oh, I've still got some of your comics. Here you go. And I was like, oh, what did you think? He's like, oh, I can't really read it. I didn't really get into it. And he's like, oh, no. I don't know. Is that real? We don't have to do this now because we have our podcast. We can talk about it with each other. But there was a real like, is there some way I can just make you take them and read them? Yeah.

[00:17:04] You know, but I had to go, okay, not to worry. I'll just take them home. Yeah. You know, but I'm like, oh, please, please read them. They're so good. That's fine. These are just really important to me. But you don't bother. That's fine. Oh, I didn't really get it. But I don't think he's really read past. I think he'd like skipped it a bit. I will say, I think, and again, like you said, I'm not trying to be negative about people. But I think that artwork is quite of its time.

[00:17:34] There was definitely a style in the late 80s, early 90s, particularly when Vertigo was starting up, which was the kind of DC's adult comics. And they all had this sort of look. Is it Jill Thompson? Is it? No, it's Chaz Truog. I'm not sure how you pronounce his name. I would say that's probably the only thing is that it feels very, it has that late 80s, early 90s comic book look,

[00:18:02] which I think is very specifically of that time. I don't mind that because even though I do love good artwork, but I'm definitely, to be honest, always I'm more about the writing and artwork connecting. Like, for example, Steve Dillon is my favorite artist. Yeah, I love Steve Dillon. Because he gets across the emotion and the characters and the plotting. Yeah, I love his stuff. In a way where, say, Alex Ross, who is amazing, but it's all painted artwork.

[00:18:32] It's like, oh, doesn't that look cool with the Avengers? But they're sort of real and painted. But the plotting is horrible to read. Yeah. It's really hard to follow. It's technical brilliance over... Storytelling, basically. And I feel like Chaz Truer, yeah, it's not the best by any means, but I feel really comfortable. Yeah. And the same. Reading it. I like it. I feel really relaxed. And I don't care if it's any better than this because it's telling the story really well. And I really know them.

[00:19:02] Do you know what I mean? I really get to know those characters. But I could see why it might put someone off who hasn't either grown up with it or sort of lived through that era. And so if you're looking at it from like a lens of now, I think it would look quite dated. Or just isn't as cool as us, I was going to say. Yeah. My favorite issue of that Animal Ram run is the one with the guy who's an old supervillain who has come back out of retirement. And he touched a meteorite and it gave him the gift of the death touch. And anyone he touches dies.

[00:19:32] And he's just like, my life has been awful because I can't touch anyone or they die immediately. And he's like, you can't even do anything with it other than kill people. Like it doesn't... And then in the end, he leaps off a building. Oh, Animal Man convinces him not to jump. And he goes, okay, I'm going to go and get help. So you sit there. And he's like, yeah. And they're just like, oh, fuck it. And jumps off. It's really... It's great. The other issue I really like is the...

[00:20:00] I think it's called the Coyote Bible. That's the most famous one, isn't it? Yeah. That's the most obvious choice, actually, Nick. I'm very basic when it comes to this sort of thing. Very basic when it comes to meta commentary. Yeah. But it's effectively what would happen if a Wile E. Coyote character came through into the real world. And it's basically this cartoon-style coyote that keeps getting killed repeatedly throughout the issue. But he's got a message that he's trying to deliver.

[00:20:29] And he gives that message to Animal Man at the end that it's just sort of some scribbles on a paper that Animal Man can't understand. It's just really bleak. Yeah. Let's get to the main event, Nick. Yes. Which is Spider Noir. Not Spider-Man Noir. It's just called Spider Noir. Yeah. Which is a weird choice. Not sure why they've done that. Because I don't think it's a licensing thing, is it? Or a rights thing.

[00:20:56] Because Sony owns Spider-Man in the movies and stuff. So I feel disgusting talking about it in some ways. And it's an Amazon Prime series. And we are essentially doing a bit of free publicity for Jeff Bezos. Yeah. However, there's a new series coming out of Spider Noir with Nick Cage. You may remember he was in Into the Spider-Verse, the animated series. He did the voice of Spider-Man Noir. But they now call it Spider Noir. I'm not sure. As a live-action series.

[00:21:25] And I thought we'd talk a bit about that. What we think it's going to be like. And also the villains who have been seen in the trailer. Who are appearing in 1920s film noir style. And their original 616 universe. Ugh. I feel sick saying that. Appearances. So. I feel sick a lot, it turns out, doesn't it? I think I need to go to the doctor about my sickness. Spider Noir. You saw the trailer. What did you think?

[00:21:55] I watched it a little while back and I forgot to re-watch it before we started. Yeah. I did re-watch it actually. But I remember watching it thinking, well, it does look like Nick Cage doing his Nick Cage thing. Which I am always on board with. Yeah. That thing. It's just everything's like, yeah. Spider-Man. It's crazy. It's just that, isn't it? I'm up for it. I'm up for it. I know people who cannot bear it at all.

[00:22:24] I think he's marmite. I like that. I think people are either on board with the Nick Cage being Nick Cage thing or they're just turned off by it completely. He's an interesting guy where essentially, and this could happen to any of us, but a tax return has sort of sealed his career, hasn't it really? Or as in, he owed a load. I maybe remember this wrong, but I think he owed a load of tax money in the 90s. And that's why he did all those movies, some of which were good, some of which were terrible.

[00:22:54] Ones like Snake Eyes and things like that. And obviously famously the Wicker Man remake with Louise, which I've never actually seen. I haven't seen that either, no. I would like to, only because every time I think of it, I then forget it exists and don't forget it. But he sort of, because before that he was like leaving Las Vegas. Do you remember that film? Yeah. Which I think he got, did he win an Oscar for it? I can't remember if he won. He definitely got nominated. That was my favourite film when I was like 17. I loved it when it came out.

[00:23:23] Because I thought in some ways the idea of being an alcoholic, living with a prostitute was like my life goal, I think, for watch. Have you read the book? It's even more depressing. And weirdly, like The Prestige, if you've ever read the book or seen the film. I've seen the film, but I haven't read the book. It's completely different. Right. Oh, the book is so different, you wouldn't know it was the same thing. And similarly with Leaving Las Vegas, it's kind of the same plot, but... Done in a completely different way. Yeah, but he did kill himself after writing it, the writer. Right.

[00:23:53] And his dad said it was his suicide note. It was just unbelievably dark. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's Spider-Man now. Yeah. But yeah, after that, because he did that and then he had this tax thing and owed loads of money, I think, and then just did everything. And then became an absolute figure of fun. And then has kind of gone through the figure of fun stage to become respecters again. Yeah. And I think it's because he picks a mixture of...

[00:24:22] Like he still does the odd mainstream thing, but then a lot of the time he just does weird films that pique his interest. Or pig? Pig is interest. Pig is interest. Nice. Have you seen pig? I have seen pig, yeah. Pig was great. I liked it. It's a man looking for his lost pig in a sort of revenge style. He's kidnapped pig. Pig, my favorite Nicolas Cage story is I read an interview with him and it was when he was doing Ghost Rider.

[00:24:51] And they said, you're known for doing quite mad stuff like he drinks blood or whatever or eats cockroach and all that stuff. Have you done anything to prepare for Ghost Rider like that? And he said, no, no, nothing particularly weird. Just basic stuff. Like I bought a load of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics and sewed them into my clothes. Yes. Like, you know, just... I'm filming at the minute and I haven't done anything like that, you know. Yet. Yet. I haven't done that yet.

[00:25:20] I wish I was more interesting in that way. But I also like that because that doesn't bear any relation to Ghost Rider either. Like if you said, yeah, I've been like, you know, sleeping in graveyards and, you know, riding on motorbikes and summoning the devil. But it's like, he's not in any way related to hieroglyphics. It's just like a weird thing to do for no reason. Maybe that's his standard process for every film. That's why he owes so much money.

[00:25:48] He spends all his fee buying Egyptian hieroglyphics and sewing his clothes for no reason. He's going to be a very old Spider-Man. He must be like 60, wasn't he? 62, yes. 62. But he's jumping around and shooting webs and he's got the hat and it's done in a colour version and a black and white version. I think I might watch the black and white one because I think it actually looks better for some reason.

[00:26:13] Yeah, I think it just feels more fitting for what it is given that it's this sort of 30s, 30s New York gangster vibe that they're going for with it. I think, yeah, black and white feels like you probably should be like that. I thought the trailer was pretty cool. It was pretty fun. But also I sort of went, ah, if I never see that, I don't care. Do you know what I mean? It's the Elseworlds vibe. It's the same thing for me.

[00:26:35] There's a part of me that's like, taking an established character and putting them in another era always makes me feel a little bit weary. I'm like, yeah, okay, fine. Oh, here's Batman and we've put him in Victorian England. Okay. I read the original series it's based on, which is written by David Hine and came out in 2005, I want to say. It's actually quite good.

[00:27:05] It's a four part series. I enjoyed it a lot. It's done from the perspective of Ben Urick, the reporter from Daredevil. He's investigating the sort of Green Goblin. He's a big boss, but it's done in a very like, is it Prohibition? No, it's after Prohibition. Yeah, it's kind of around that time. Great Depression, actually, isn't it? Yeah. There's poverty.

[00:27:26] What I thought was a particularly brave thing, which you wouldn't probably get nowadays, even in an Elseworlds, is Aunt May is a communist and in the street on a soapbox arguing for workers' rights. And Peter Parker is her nephew, which they're not doing in the series. It's Ben Reilly. But also he is still a kid. He's very much the Peter Parker from the sort of Steve Ditko. But he's very angry. It's great.

[00:27:56] And the Green Goblin, all his gang are from a circus. They've like ran away from a circus. So Craven is this kind of lion tamer who has a monkey who controls animals somehow. And the Vulture is a geek. You know what a geek is? Yeah, bites the head off chickens. Yeah. Yeah. So he's like, it looks like Nosferatu. And he's eaten. They find Uncle Ben and they think he's been eaten by wild dogs.

[00:28:23] And it turns out he's actually the Vulture cannibalized. I mean, while the others watched Ben Urick, who's also a drug addict. That's why he's in Throuter, Norman Osborn. It's great. It's really intense for issues. And I like the society and political elements, sociological and political elements and all that. Yeah. Whether any of that will be in it, I don't think. I imagine it would just be Spider-Man. Because it doesn't really have that.

[00:28:49] What they did in Spider-Verse, which is, I get why, is they just immediately made Spider-Noir a kind of, I was working on a case kind of guy. Yeah. She walked into the office and blah, blah, blah, femme fatale. All those kind of Raymond Chandler tropes. Yes. But the comic is more, it's more like, what if this happened in this time rather than, what if Spider-Man was an actual film noir? Yeah. No, you're right.

[00:29:17] It's not like, it's not like they've put him into a Jimmy Cagney, Edward G. Robinson, 1930s gangster film. Yeah. It's more the era itself than that. But yeah, I don't know. I didn't, I wasn't that keen on it. I didn't really enjoy it that much. I didn't. It felt like it was just, for me, trying to be a bit too grim. The kind of Ben as a heroin addict, all that kind of stuff was a bit. Right. I don't know.

[00:29:41] It felt a bit like it was trying too hard to say, oh, 30s were horrible, by the way. I'm like, yeah, I guess they were because there was a world war on the horizon. So I think we know it was horrible. The only thing I thought was weirdly fitting was the henchmen, Fancy Dan, Ox and Montana looked exactly the same in the 1930s noir version than they do in the regular.

[00:30:09] It was like, oh, you can actually just, you can actually just take them and put them in the 30s and they still look exactly the same. They are just characters from that era anyway. Yeah. So the characters, the villains that we see in this trailer for Spider Noir, should we talk a bit about them and their origins? Okay. So first off, let's talk about Silvermane, who is, I think, the main villain in Spider Noir.

[00:30:38] He's Brendan Gleeson, who is Irish, and he's doing it with an Irish accent, which is wrong for a start because he's Italian-American in the comics. He's a mafia boss or the Magia, as they're cleverly disguised as. I read the whole sequence leading up to Silvermane's first appearance, just to get some context. And it's all based around this tablet, which I find very funny that all these gangsters are trying to get a tablet from a museum.

[00:31:08] Like, we must get our hands on it. And just the idea that if we can get our hands on this lost tablet, I think this was at the time the Dead Sea Scrolls had been discovered. Right. Well, actually, they were discovered, I did look it up, between like 45 and 57. It was over a period of time. I guess this was probably the point where they got into mainstream culture as a, you know, in that conspiracy theory, Mason, everyone was talking about.

[00:31:36] There'd probably been a book about the Dead Sea Scrolls by this point. It's clearly inspired by the Dead Sea Scrolls. But it starts with the Kingpin. Actually, the Kingpin is convinced if he can get hold of this, just an old tablet, as in writing from the past, hieroglyphics, much like Nicolas Cage. It will change everything. I like the fact that none of them seem to know what it's actually going to do or change. They just all seem to know they have to have it. It's only actually Silvermane that knows what it does.

[00:32:06] The rest of them are like, oh, we just need this tablet because it's an old tablet and it's got power. No one can read it, so no one knows. But if we get it, we'll work it out somehow. But also, like, at first I thought they were just going to steal it and sell it. But, like, how would you sell that? I mean, I guess in the black market, mate. How would you sell something that's been in the news that everyone's been trying to steal? I mean, the Kingpin must have its way, surely.

[00:32:31] I like how the Kingpin is much more earthy and much less untouchable. Yes. Yeah, I liked that. Well, I love the Frank Miller ones as well, of course. But he's now almost just this, like, he has complete control over all of New York. Whereas at this point, he's still a bit more scrappy. He gets his hands dirty. And I love the whole, like, every inch of me is muscle. That sounds a bit rude. But, I mean, people underestimate me. They think I'm just fat, but actually it's all muscle.

[00:33:00] And actually the way that, is it John Romita in these ones? Or is it still different? Yeah. Oh, my God. I love John Romita. I can't believe how good the artwork is. I've never really read these and they're amazing. And I think the way he's drawn him, he does look like a slab of muscle rather than just fat. I think he looks really solid and imposing, but not, like you said, that later on where they've taken the artistic representation and made it his default setting.

[00:33:29] It doesn't look over the top big. He just looks like a big, solid, bulky guy in this one. So many elements, like him taking his top off and fighting, making five blokes fight him randomly and then getting rid of them all because they weren't good enough. Although in later ones, he'd probably kill them, I guess. And then also the whole, yeah, his wife, Vanessa. You should not call Vanessa in there. You don't see her, actually. She just drives past in a car and says, get in. So anyway, eventually, oh, you've got Man Mountain Marco turns up. What the fuck is he?

[00:33:59] He's great. Stan Lee is obsessed with the name Marco. So we've got Man Mountain Marco. We've got Flint Marco, the Sandman. We've got Kane Marco, the juggernaut. He loves the name Marco. He does like the name Marco. I've never thought that. It's like when I read Man Mountain Marco, I was like, we've had other Marcos, surely. Yeah, Flint Marco and Kane Marco. Flint Marco, the Sandman looks very similar to Man Mountain Marco as well, apart from their clothes.

[00:34:28] And he's not made of sand. He also looks quite a lot like Elvis, I thought. I thought he's a kind of bruiser version of Elvis. Yeah, he does a bit. Man Mountain Marco is just a big thug, isn't he? Who works for Silvermane. It's like introducing this incredible new supervillain. He's just a very big man. Just a man who punches. I do like him. I don't dislike him, Nick. He's all right. I mean, I don't like what he stands for, but I like him as a character.

[00:34:56] I philosophically oppose him, but he's fascinating to look at. I also like the big C. The big C. Did you see him? He's called Caesar Cicero. Caesar. Caesar Cicero. Caesar Cicero. And he's a tiny little gangster lawyer. He's actually a lawyer, but he's trying to take over from Silvermane. So Silvermane, his real name is Silvio Mainfridi. I don't think that's said in this. What? Oh, they love doing this. Really pushing it, isn't it? I mean, that's the Otto Octavius and he's octopus.

[00:35:25] But Silvermane isn't even a thing, is it? Is Silvermane a thing? Does it mean like Silver Fox? Silver back is a thing, but not a silver mane, I wouldn't have said. I mean, he's got a silver mane. He has got a silver mane. Yeah. A lot of grey hair. Yeah. But at this point, he does talk about himself in the third person. Yes. He spends a lot of time in these issues going on about how old he is and how he would have smashed everyone up when he was younger. Yeah.

[00:35:52] Which is obviously foreshadowing what he plans to do with the tablet. But equally, he just seems to say it a lot. There's a lot of times him going, well, I'm old now, but in my day, I would have popped your head like a grape. He's a really horrible old man, isn't he? Yeah. He's one of those guys who's so bitter and I bet you want all my money, don't you? Yeah. You'll have my bloody house once I'm dead. I know you. You're going through all my stuff. You vultures, you're just hanging around me till I kick it. I know you are. None of you like me.

[00:36:23] But he's written quite realistically in that sense. And I guess you could be, I mean, we're all, you know, this storyline is very much about mortality, isn't it? You know, we're all faced with that idea that one day we'll just be gone and all our life will have meant nothing, even the greatest of us. Even Stan Lee will one day just be forgotten, you know? As the great philosophers Bill and Ted once said, all we are is dust on the wind, dude. I'm impressed you remembered that. Is that from the first one? Yeah, I watched it.

[00:36:52] I watched it recently. Oh, there you go. Okay, fine. Yeah, but he's aware that he's coming to the end of his life. Quite a realistic character. And even Matthew bosses. He reminds me a lot of the film Casino. Do you remember at the end after all those people have been murdered and blown up and stuff? And then you see the bosses at the trial and they're all like in wheelchairs on life support. And it's this idea that they've killed these people who are maybe like 60 years younger than them, just so they don't get caught.

[00:37:22] Kling on for another two to three years tops, you know? Yeah. I mean, isn't that just the world really in a nutshell? So I do feel like Stan Lee does some good writing here as well. The artwork is incredible. And as we know in this era, a lot of it was the artist and then Stan would fill in the word sort of thing. But I think he does some pretty nice character work here.

[00:37:39] And Silvermane, yeah, is of course searching for the tablet because he knows, I think, that you can, even though it is made by the Sumerians or whatever, if you can get a biologist, which presumably they had, they could, the hieroglyphics are actually chemical equations. Yeah. Of course, they wouldn't have had chemical equations that would be the same as ours back then, I don't think, would they?

[00:38:07] Would they, Nick? I'm asking you as if you have any knowledge of the Sumerians. I don't know, because you do read things about where other civilizations had similar discoveries to us, but it just might not have been written down or might not have been, you know, there are certain things that people had discovered earlier than we suspected. So Dr. Kurt Connors, the lizard, could have, they had their own version of that? Maybe.

[00:38:32] Oh, so he's translating, but I suppose, okay, he's translating ancient equations. He's translating it into a modern equivalent. Right. And then he does, he makes it and lo and behold, it's a elixir of life that you drink it and you become younger. But Silvermane is still called Silvermane and he does not have silver hair as a, as a young man. But he immediately does beat the shit out of everyone, including Man Mountain Marco.

[00:39:00] For no real reason, because he looks like a kind of normal man. Just for some reason, he seems to be ridiculously strong when he was younger, but only, well, he's ridiculously strong when he was a bit younger than he is now. But as he carries on getting younger, he's no longer strong anymore. I thought this was a good twist. There's a period about 10 years where he was strong and then that's, that's it. Really strong. But he sort of says things like, I just have the power of you, such power. It's like, yeah, I don't mean you can just beat anyone up.

[00:39:31] But, and it's also the idea that in the Mafia, you will only get anywhere for being strongest. It's quite playground logic, isn't it? I don't know anything about the Mafia and I don't want to. This was written a matter of three months after the Godfather was published, by the way. Oh, okay. I looked it up. I did my work. Very clearly an influence, I'd say.

[00:39:55] But yeah, he drinks the potion, but then he's like, hang on, Simon, now I'm weaker and my clothes are too big for me. And so on. Oh no, I'm a teenager. And then he becomes a little boy. Does he become a baby? He just keeps going until he's presumably a sperm and an egg. You don't see a sperm and an egg. You don't see that. You just see some clothes. If it was Daniel Klaus, you would see a sperm and an egg, definitely. Definitely. But John Romita, Spider-Man just turns around and he's vanished.

[00:40:25] Yeah. Also, the cover of this issue is, we know someone dies. It's one of those where it's like, we know somebody's going to die. And it's quite clever because you think you can see a dead man with Spider-Man sort of doing that thing where he's holding his head as in, oh no, he's dead. But actually, it's just a pile of clothes because there's nothing there. I was quite surprised by that because obviously Silvermane, I've seen Silvermane in later issues. So clearly he gets better from being reversed back to nothing.

[00:40:59] There's a cure for that. Yeah. Oh, I was reduced to my existential components of nothingness. Yeah, I got better though. It is that Monty Python, isn't it? She turned into a new, I got better. He does come back in a cyborg body. Oh, yeah. And he's just an old man's head on a cyborg body, which I remember. And I remember that because I remember picking up the comic in the 90s when I was 10 or something.

[00:41:24] And the cover says, death is a cyborg called Silvermane, which even then I thought was not a great title. That's a very comic book title though. Yeah. And then we've talked at length. If you want to hear more about the ultimate fate of Silvermane, listen to our Superior Foes of Spider-Man episode, which I think was the last one we did before the big change. Great. So that's Silvermane. Next on the list, the black cat.

[00:41:54] She's a bit later than all the others. I think in the early 70s. Yeah, I was surprised by that. Marv Wolfman. Late 70s. Late 70s, Marv Wolfman. 79. Yeah. I thought she came into it earlier than that. I was quite surprised that she was that late in the run. Felicia Hardy. Great name. We read the first two issues of her appearance, the two issue storyline that she appears in. Really enjoyed it. It's not as up there with the Rometers and the Stan Lee ones, but it's...

[00:42:24] She is... I mean, let's be honest. She's cat woman. Yeah. Almost completely. Cat burglar. Cat-based theme. Femme fatale to the hero. The one element that I really like, which isn't in this, but I think it's in a later one, but I haven't read it and I couldn't find which one it was, is where she gets him to take his mask off. Because she's in love with Spider-Man and she gets him to take his mask off and he's just a normal bloke. And she's like, oh God, put the mask back on.

[00:42:51] I've seen those panels, but I don't know what the issue is. But that's quite a good twist. I think that she's really like, oh, you're really average. As a non-super hero, you're just a bloke. I've really got no interest in you whatsoever. But she's less sex obsessed. She's less of a nymphomaniac in these than she becomes. She's much more like, I thought she was quite strong and got a good motivation.

[00:43:19] Her dad was a cat burglar and is dying and she's trying to arrange one last heist for him or something, is it? Or get revenge on it? I can't quite remember. No, her dad was a cat burglar, but she's kind of grown up without him because he left because he didn't want to influence her. But actually, he's now dying. She breaks him out of prison where he's dying and takes him home to basically say to him, look, I'm just like you. I've become a cat burglar. I've learned all your moves.

[00:43:49] At which, obviously, he's massively upset and disappointed because he didn't want that for her. He didn't want her to follow him into the cat burglar lifestyle. I mean, it sounds silly, but it's quite deep and meaningful in a way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's quite emotionally moving. Yeah. Well, and then obviously Spider-Man ends up trying to stop her at one point and he basically delays her so long that she then misses her father's death, effectively. Yes. And is she angry with him?

[00:44:19] Don't... I don't know if it covers that in this issue. Does she have real white hair or is that a wig? In this issue, it looks like it's real because he grabs it and she says, ah, my hair. But I think in later issues, it's a wig, isn't it? Not sure. I love her white hair. Yeah. She looks great. I think I'd say the look is kind of better than Catwoman, actually, dare I say it, because she's a bit more flamboyant. And Catwoman nowadays also, they always have to make her very like functional.

[00:44:46] Like it's got little ears, but it's very functional costume. Whereas this has got like 70s fur all over him, you know, little tassels and things. I don't know. It depends. I like the Darwin Cook version of Catwoman with the kind of... Oh, yeah. The bigger goggles and the... And that looks like an outfit that could actually be worn. That one feels relatively practical. But that's what I mean. It's sort of also a bit less fun. It's Darwin Cook.

[00:45:12] So everything Darwin Cook draws is magical because he's the greatest. But yeah, she already has henchmen as well, don't you? I think. Which I thought was a much later thing. But she's already kind of got a gang and she's a bit of a villain. She's not really an out-and-out villain. But I liked... Yeah. I like a bit of Felicia Hardy. You talked about the taking off the mask earlier. She does the thing that Mary Jane does in the Sam Raimi Spider-Man movies in that she

[00:45:38] just lifts up the bottom half of Spider-Man's mask so she can kiss him. Which is obviously... Okay, that's right. So obviously Sam Raimi had seen that and that was an influence, I think. Because that's basically what Mary Jane does to Spider-Man in the film. I've got to say, these comics are pretty horny as well. You're in for a good time. In the new series, the Spider-Noir, she's done as a singer in a club, I think.

[00:46:08] Which is the same as in the comics. But the little talk she's having with Nick Cage, she's quite kind of innocent and sweet. But I'm guessing maybe she turns out to be a fan for teller. That's all of ruse. Maybe. I sort of hope so, otherwise. Otherwise you've wasted the character. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. She could be anyone. So that's Black Cat. Electro. Max Dillon. Max Well Dillon. He's a man who controls electricity.

[00:46:37] There's not a huge amount to say, really. He appears in issue nine. Yeah, very early on. One of the earliest ever villains. What I do like about him is he is very blue collar. Literally, but he's just really good at fixing electricity pylons or whatever. Or telephone wires, whatever it is. He's the best there is. But he's also an absolute arsehole. Yeah. And I love that. Isn't it someone's like dangling and they're going to fall when he's like, they're like, Max, you've got to go and save him. And he's like, well, I'm not working today.

[00:47:06] So, or I'll finish my shift or whatever. Pay me a bit of overtime and I might think about it, mate. Yeah. He's really unpleasant guy. And I like that. And he's not villainous. He's just a horrible man. Just a git. Just a self-centered git. And also, of course, that mirrors Spider-Man when he doesn't stop the burglar who ends up killing Ben. You know, heroes have to mirror their villains and all that. And when he goes to save the guy, he then gets struck by lightning and becomes Electro.

[00:47:34] I can't remember why he doesn't just die. They do kind of give a reason, I think. Oh, it's the standard Marvel type thing, isn't it? It's like, I should have been killed instantly, but by a fantastic freak of fate, due to the way I've been gripping the electric wires, the two bolts of currents cancelled each other and made me electric. I don't know. It just says the two bolts of the other cancels each other and dot, dot, dot. I'm still alive. Yeah. Okay.

[00:48:02] Science isn't their big thing, really, is it? No. Not actual science. The nature of his powers don't really use electricity in a way that could be a lot more fun. He mainly does throw the bolt. But even with the bolts, it's not like he's zapping them at this point. He just kind of chucks a lightning bolt, which I kind of like. It's got a slightly unreal cartoony feel to it. I don't think he yet has the power, which you've got in the Sega Mega Drive game of Spider-Man,

[00:48:31] which, as I've said to my son, is still the hardest game of all time, because you cannot beat the Kingpin at the end without Mary Jane falling into the acid. But he, Electro in that, I seem to remember, can fly around on a cloud of electricity. Oh. Where he just sits on some electricity and flow. Oh. He also can somehow use electricity to, like, create electric hands so he can climb walls. Oh, yeah, yeah. We all tried to climb walls with electric hands. Static.

[00:49:01] Oh, static, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I get the feeling someone's gone, well, it works when you rub a balloon against your hair and put it on the wall. So maybe if a person's got electric hands. I don't understand how any of it works. Also, it's actually quite a boring villain, isn't it? I like his personality that he's just a git. Yeah. But it's sort of limited, really. Yeah. I've never been a huge fan of Electro. He's kind of, eh, just sort of there. What is the thing of just adding an O at the end of the name?

[00:49:31] I wonder where that originates. Do you think that's from, like... Mysterio, Electro. Yeah. Rhino. Well, no, that is just a word, isn't it, Rhino? Yeah. Magneto is actually a word as well, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Magneto is a thing. Yeah. Lion-O. I mean, that is just lion with O. Electro. Isn't Electro a thing? It's sort of used since, I think. I mean, Electro music, yeah. So that's Electro. It literally doesn't really have any history. It just comes back every now and again.

[00:49:59] They sort of pimp him out to Daredevil and stuff. In the early days, they sort of... People's villains get pimped out to other heroes, don't they? Yeah. Well, I always forget that Kingpin was a Spider-Man villain to start with because I'm so used to him being Daredevil's, you know, big nemesis. I mean, that was almost like a real breakup. So then there is Molten Man, who's not called Molto. He's called Molten Man. Mark Raxton. Mark Raxton.

[00:50:29] The Molten Man. Mark Raxton. The greatest of all of these villains. Was this still Steve Ditko? I think so, yeah. There's a fundamental science misunderstanding again here with Molten Man in that the way they describe it, him being covered in molten metal just seems to make him a little bit slippery. So really, he's more sort of greasy man than molten man, I would say.

[00:50:55] Well, they sort of do a bit of a fireman, a bit of a human torch, isn't he? But not quite. Like, does he... He doesn't really set fire to anything, though. The fact that he's covered in molten metal doesn't seem to burn anything. He's just slippy. Yeah. At one point, Spider-Man says, oh, he's a bit slippery. I'm like, that's not how molten works. I think he's definitely hot, isn't he? He's sort of golden looking. He's golden looking, but he doesn't seem to burn anything that he touches. What is molten, as in like lava?

[00:51:25] No, it's magnet. Molten metal would be like melted metal, which is what he's covered in. But obviously that would harden at one point. Or if it stays molten, it means it's effectively burning. God, so he's sort of like essentially like that horrific bit in Game of Thrones where they pour the gold crown over his head. It melts into his skull. That's what Mark Raxton is. But rather than just spend the rest of the issue screaming until he dies,

[00:51:53] he decides, I'll be molten man, the most powerful villain of them all. With this power of being a bit slippery, I'll take over the bloody world, mate. Who can stop me? No one will be able to hold on to me for a start. Yeah. Oh, I've got him. Oh, no, he's gone again. I've got him. Oh, he's gone again. Oh, God, he's taken over the world. Oh, no. If only we could have held on to him. Don't worry, he won't be able to pick anything up. Yeah. He can't actually grab anything either. Yeah.

[00:52:23] I say this a lot, but this really was one where they'd just given up, hadn't they? They'd had the idea. Sound like, I've got it. Molden man. And then just halfway through, they went, ah, there's not much to this really, is there? Yeah. He just, it's just a bit golden. The clue is in, I think on the cover where it says something like, this issue, Spidey fights in the dark, which he does. And I think because the villain they've created is so nothing. Yeah.

[00:52:51] The more exciting thing is that he's fighting in the dark for a bit. Cloaked in darkness, Spidey faces the mystifying menace of the molten man. Standard alliteration from Stan. Doesn't it also, does it say something like see him graduate or something? Oh, yeah. Also in this landmark issue, you won't want to miss Peter Parker's graduation. Peter Parker visits the doctors. Yeah. Also, don't miss Peter's niece goes to a kindergarten.

[00:53:22] Yeah. It's quite funny. It's quite sweet, really. It's quite a sort of Archie or, you know, like a romance comic, isn't it? Also in this issue, he gets a new car. Look out for Peter's three-monthly dental hygienist appointment. Peter visits a potential new house he might buy. Yeah, that's what I meant to say, actually. That is the thing. They're just pushing anything because they're aware molten man is going to be the biggest disappointment of your life. Yeah.

[00:53:51] I think he only, I did look it up, I think he only comes back about four more times. That's four more than I would have thought. He's Liz Allen's brother. Oh, really? That's his claim to fame. The other thing I've spotted in these early ones is that Peter Parker is very, very horny all the time. He's got like... Oh, my God. He's got like so many women that he's trying to crack on with. There's Liz Allen. There's Betty Brant. There's MJ. There's Gwen. I get the feeling there's someone else at once. Or there's Felicia Hardy.

[00:54:20] Like, he's just constant. Anytime he meets a woman, like, that seems to be that's another potential one that he's in love with. But it's a little bit Confessions of a Window Cleaner. Like, he kind of, wherever he goes, they just chase after him kind of thing. So, I mean, it's like, how am I going to cope with all these women who want me? You know. But I love all the soap opera element of Spider-Man. I mean, we've said it because that's what makes it really, isn't it? Even more than the character of Spider-Man. I think that's where the later comics...

[00:54:50] I was never a big Spider-Man fan, particularly. I mean, I was in that everyone kind of is, aren't they? But because the 90s comics were so tedious. And they were mainly just him having long thoughts about... Just giving you all the information about his life, which was very tedious. And then occasionally MJ, who was a supermodel. So, you know, yeah, she was attractive. But it was like, very unrelatable. Yeah.

[00:55:20] And they just looked like a really boring couple. The hero and his supermodel wife. Yeah. This beautiful, boring couple who have got a nice apartment. And their worries are pretty... Apart from all the villain stuff, their worries are normally pretty sort of, will I make it to my next supermodel shoot? Yeah. That kind of thing. Whereas the originals are all about the interplay between all the characters. Yeah.

[00:55:48] Not just Spidey, but all the relationships going on. And, you know, Flash Thompson's the bully and then sort of becomes his friend. But there's still like resentment there. And Harry is obviously a bloody maniac. Yeah. Son of a bloody maniac. Drug addict. Son of a maniac. There's so much going on. It's so good. But yeah, 90s Spider-Man was so bad. And I don't think it's... I'm not sure it's ever recovered.

[00:56:13] I don't think Spider-Man's ever recovered from, say, I guess when Green Goblin dies, really. Has he ever got better than that? I don't know. I read it from... I didn't really start reading Spider-Man until the late 90s, early 2000s, I think. And read it from there onwards. So from the JMS run through to Civil War and onwards is when I started reading it. And I've kind of read it from there. And then I've read probably the first 150 odd issues. So there's...

[00:56:43] So the kind of 80... And I've read some of the 80s stuff. Yeah. But the 80s, 90s, 70s, 80s, 90s is a bit of a gap. So I haven't read a lot of that. The Peter David Spider-Man was pretty good. I think that was when you had all the black costume stuff and Craven's Last Hunt and all that stuff. But this is the gold for me. Speaking of gold, or rather sand. Perfect segue. Our final villain, the Sandman, Flint Marco, as you say.

[00:57:12] Or is it William Baker? For some reason, it turned out Flint Marco was an alias. He's had a few names, I think. We read his first appearance, which was Spider-Man 4. He's the fourth ever villain. And he's great, isn't he? And I love the Steve Ditko art. I love that his costume is a green t-shirt with stripes on it and some dresses. Yeah. I love that. And they tried to change that in the Fantastic Four when he becomes...

[00:57:40] He gets pimped out as the Fantastic Four as part of the Frightful Four. And they give him this really terrible Transformer-like sort of super suit. But yeah, just... And then eventually they go, no, we got it right first time. T-shirt and jeans. Stripey green shirt. Stripey green shirt. It's the way it's the way it's the way. Because that got turned into sand with him. So it just changes as well. It makes sense. So he's got sand pants, presumably. Sand underpants. We've all had sand in our pants. I reckon Flint Marco goes commando, actually. I mean, I guess he is.

[00:58:09] If his clothes are him, I guess he's always commando. Yeah. He's kind of always naked. Yeah. It's a lot of fun. I like... Surprisingly, like in the movie... Because I remember my friend who's not really into comics. I have one friend. I'm a Munich. But he's... He... Yeah. I remember him laughing about the third Spider-Man film when we saw it. And saying like how... The Flint Marco is literally just running down the road and then falls... Climbs over a fence and falls into this thing.

[00:58:39] And then suddenly people go, right, let's start the nuclear experiment. And then he's... What? What's going on? And that's how he turns into... He just randomly falls into a nuclear experiment at the point they're about to do it. But then he does. That is his origin in the comic as well. That is actually what's in the comic. It's exactly the same as the Hulk. He just randomly falls into a nuclear experiment. Except he doesn't turn green and angry. He just turns to sand. Yeah. But at least the Hulk was doing the experiment.

[00:59:08] So he had a reason to be there. Whereas... I like how he's already known as a villain. Like there's a news report. A news report where they're showing his whole origin. And I'm like, how have you got these photos for a start? It's a funny idea. Just a whole news report about one... I mean, I guess if he was a man who could turn into sand, it would be very newsworthy. Or a man who's made out of sand. Probably turn up in the news.

[00:59:36] Do like a whole story of his life, basically. And they know everything. That's how he finds out. You don't normally get with villains, do you? Where someone just tells you on the news. Yeah. Yeah, they're made out of sand. They can sort of make big hammers with their fists and stuff. Again, I know I've been banging on about the science stuff this week. But I'm pretty sure that rock solid, impenetrable wall of almost like metal isn't a standard state for sand. Yeah.

[01:00:06] I feel like that's one of those things where it's like, yeah, he's a man made of sand so he can sort of turn himself into a wall. I think there might be some sand in walls, but you have to mix a bit of water and cement and stuff like that in there first before it will pardon. It does make me think a bit of that bit in Midsummer Night's Dream as well, where someone's playing wall. Oh, yeah. They've got like their head and normally someone just wearing a wall costume. That's sort of what Sandman is, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying it would still be pretty soft.

[01:00:36] Yeah. Especially if you were super powered. If you hit sand, it's just going to sort of crumble, isn't it? Well, so it's like if a beach... Oh, God, this is... What are we even talking about, mate? But this is like if a beach was just like compressing itself. It tends to need to be wet, doesn't it, before it'll all stick together. And even if it's... I don't know. Yeah, maybe we're putting too much thought into this. More like bullshit, man. That's what I say. If I was Spidey, that would be one of my famous quips.

[01:01:05] More like bullshit, man, mate. That wouldn't work. Yeah. Doesn't make any sense, dickhead. Got a very sweary episode. I like his hair. Yeah. I like his name and his attitude. I like that he probably talks like this. The Sandman. Yeah. That's how I've always done it when I've read the comics to my kids. I think Flint Marco is the best name. I don't think William Baker's... William Baker's a boring name. Flint Marco is a much better name.

[01:01:35] Well, he reforms at one point and joins the Avengers with rage in the one with the demon called... And he joins Silver Sable's Wild Pack. Ugh. That's one we're hopefully never going to have to read. Just that. Just that phrase is like, ugh. Silver Sable's Wild Pack. I've got it. Yeah. Stanley. That's... Stanley wouldn't come up with that rubbish, would he? But yeah, then he eventually just becomes a villain again. I like him as a guy.

[01:02:05] I like, again, that he's... Again, he's blue collar, but he's not an absolute git like Electro. He's a bit... In the films, they make him more like he's got a daughter and all that, which I always... Yeah, yeah. I feel like the... I remember my brother saying this, saying, like, why do they have to make all the villains actually be his mates and be kind of a bit sad and... Yeah. ...tragic. And I... I don't know, it kind of works, but I'm also like... I think he's a bastard. He's not a git, but he's a bastard. He's not a good guy.

[01:02:35] He's just a bit of an arsehole. Yeah. He's not the worst, but he's... No. ...definitely a git. He doesn't enjoy killing, I don't think, at all. No. The best thing is Steve Ditko's drawing of him, just like punching him and then him reforming and... Is there a bit where his legs are still there, but he's top off? Yes. And the rest of him's dissolved. Yeah. Just really just having fun doing, like, what can we do with sand? A sand man.

[01:03:05] And I like at the end, Spider-Man beats him and then has to get some photos for J.J. and Jameson. So he just gets a bucket of sand and chucks it in the air and quickly takes a photograph of himself with it. Yeah, I did enjoy that. Just, here's some pictures of me punching some sand. Yeah. That'll do. It's like making a video when you're a kid or something. Yeah. You know, trying to, like, make it look real. Yeah, just punching a bit.

[01:03:35] I don't think it would show up at all, would it? No, I feel like it's that thing you do where you say, right, quick, take a picture of me as I jump up in the air so it looks like I'm flying. Yes. It also made me think a bit of me trying to do a self-tape in my house for a casting. I don't know. Does that look good? Great. Well, there we go. That's all the villains. We did it. That's all the villains. Yeah. In Spider-Noir, as I said, he looks the best, actually.

[01:04:04] He looks like a kind of chemist. He's got, like, a little bow tie and a big mustache. He looks a bit like the comedian Red Richardson. Who would be excellent casting as any of these villains? I'd like to see his molten man, actually. I think he'd... I bet you would. He's a slippery customer. I'd love to see his slippery molten man. Great. Oh, well, it's good to be back, Nick. I'll tell you that for nothing. It's good to be back. It's good to be back.

[01:04:33] Should we put him in the order quick, Sharp? Oh, well, let's do it. Because we're still going to do the list. So, who do we start with? Silvermane. Well, he's... It's a good story. It's good fun. But he's not a classic villain, is he, really? Not really. He's not one of the best Spider-Mans. One, two, one. He's not as good as Dormammu, surely. No. Maybe a bit further down. Maybe, is he below Mole Man? Should we put him one below Aguila?

[01:05:04] Yeah. Yeah. Silvermane. Who's next? Black Cat. Black Cat. Much higher. I like her. But she is just Catwoman. Yeah, she's good fun, though. Maybe one above Tombstone. Okay. One below Rhino. Yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. Electro. I mean, is he better than Paste Pot Pete? No. One below Baron Zemo 2? Yeah. Above the Wrecker. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He has got a great mask. And then Molter Man.

[01:05:33] Oh, right to the bottom, mate. Sorry. He's just dreadful. I'm going to put him one below Mandrill. He's so slippery. Finally, Sandman. Oh, right up there. Yeah, Sandman's good. I'd say one below Galactus. Yeah, I was going to say that. I don't think he's better than Galactus. We did it. We did it. The important work is done. Important work is done. That's now two, nine, four characters, I think. We're getting there.

[01:06:03] We're getting there, bro. I think we're nearly a third of the way through the list. Wow. But that doesn't matter. That doesn't... That's not the function of this podcast anymore. No, we can talk about all of it. Function is just two men chatting about our favourite thing, comics. Well, next week, I think the plan is to talk about Daredevil Born Again. So we are back to Marvel, I'm afraid. But because the series is just finished, Nick, have you managed to watch any?

[01:06:33] I haven't watched any of Daredevil Born Again at all, because I haven't watched any of the Netflix ones. I feel you could Kane Born Again without watching. You really don't need to. Yeah, I might have to do that, because I'd have to watch about 130 episodes before I get to Born Again. They're all... There's great elements, great acting, but they're also, you know, those series where 50% are pretty bland. Yeah, you could cut a lot out.

[01:07:01] Born Again has still got a lot of blandness, but it's possibly then we will be talking about Born Again. Yes. And we'll also talk about five of Daredevil's weirdest villains. And he does have some weird villains. He has some very, very weird... Before Kingpin and Bullseye, all his villains are just either Electro or guys like Stiltman. I was going to say Stiltman. Owl's pretty weird.

[01:07:30] Mr. Fear is... Have you read the original Mr. Fear? That is the weirdest comic of all time, I think. And Birdman, one of the Annie men. He's a Daredevil villain. There's a lot of fun to be had. So next week, we might be talking about Born Again. Or something completely different. It's completely out of our country. It's just wild. I feel so free. Yeah. I feel so liberated. I feel like I've thrown off a weight I never even realised I was carrying.

[01:07:59] Do you know why that is? It's because comics is our happy place. Comics is our happy place.

[01:08:07] This podcast is part of Podomity,

[01:08:39] the UK's podcast comedy network. Why not laugh at what else we've got? Visit Podomity.com.