Movie Villains with Craig & Gaz (The Diabolical Podcast)

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Fandomentals, the podcast that explores pop culture, one conversation at the time. I am your host, Harley. On this episode I am joined by two fiendish podcasts that go by the name of Craig and Gaz from The Diabolical Podcast. It is the podcast that

[00:01:06] seeks to improve upon the schemes and plots of movie villains and that is of course the subject of today's episode. Movie Villains are a staple of cinema and storytelling today, there is something that we relish seeing the good guys fight the bad guys and

[00:01:22] while usually the good guys win and we like to see that, there is a lot to be said of course for a great movie villain. And this naturally leads to the question, what is a great

[00:01:33] movie villain? What do you need in order to create such a character? This is really at the core of the conversation that I had with Craig and Gaz and it was such a delight

[00:01:42] to sit down and talk with these guys. They shared some wonderful insights and a lot of really fascinating points that I am sure you guys will enjoy. So on that note, let's get to the conversation. This is Movie Villains with Craig and Gaz from The Diabolical

[00:01:59] Podcast. Hello Craig and Gaz and welcome to the Fandomentals podcast. Hello Harley. Thank you. Hello. Yes, thank you. Thank you. And thank you guys for letting me in your virtual studio. I'm happy to share that behind the scenes straight up top. You're very kindly hosting

[00:02:20] me in your room which is I got to say I quite like the set of actually the more I'm looking at it and might have to steal. It's really good. It's really handy. We never

[00:02:29] have any lost audio or any problems like that. We had a guest on a while ago. It was the author David Pantick and we found at the end of the recording that his audio had not

[00:02:40] uploaded. We can't panic by email, Tim and well, Riverside gives you a link you can send to participants and if they use the link it just completes uploading the audio from their device to Riverside for you after the fact. So really good.

[00:02:58] Brilliant. There you go. There you go folks. So something to keep in mind but that's not why we're here. We're not here to talk technical stuff. We are home to talk about the very

[00:03:07] thing that you guys talk about every week and those of course movie villains. So you guys are the perfect guest for this topic so I'm going to throw it over to you. I'm really

[00:03:15] curious to start off with who was your first movie villain? What's your earliest memory of this? Well, do you want to fuck us? Oh, you know, it's quite hard question isn't it? I think

[00:03:27] we're very old. Basically who traumatized you as a child? Yeah, I remember very old, very very old, very great. Thinking about it, the first trip to the cinema that I remember must

[00:03:41] have been my first experience of a movie villain. So in that case my first movie villain would have been the evil stepmother from Snow White and the Seventh Wolf. Is she the stepmother? Oh,

[00:03:54] she just leave a witch. Oh, just the witch. Just the witch. Just the witch. That's right. Yeah. And I distinctly remember the sort of old clone for when she's trying to get Snow White to I get this mixed up again. I'm going to say yeah.

[00:04:20] No, no, no, no, no, no. That's no way. Seep is a strong memory, totally. On the spinning wheel. Yes. Both fall asleep. That's the problem. All the deadly benefits are hence Fiona in trek.

[00:04:34] But yeah, you write the throne is the form that the evil queen takes to give Snow White the apple and it really the animated film and that of course there's the famous gift now of the

[00:04:48] crown going down below the floor or coming up one of the other. Yeah, that's right. Which I think evil dead must be a reference to that. It has to be surely. Right. That's the best.

[00:05:00] Same same day. My first cinema experience was actually a early version of a cinematic universe where two of television's greatest heroes came together. He managed she were to take on Scalotor. So Scalotor was my first dead at Cinema Villain. I don't think I found Scalotor

[00:05:20] particularly traumatizing now and I think probably the first traumatic cinema experience that I had with a villain would have been something highlander probably with the curtain. Oh, the good. It was a lot to watch it. I thought a young age thanks to having a much older brother.

[00:05:39] Oh, they're great for that. All the siblings older relatives. You can't see really with stuff like that. You can't see too many depapizations at a young age surely. No, it's fine.

[00:05:53] No numbers to you. I was going to say you're probably more in in Tom and Jerry or something like that. I mean, and yeah, we're talking about Disney at the start. I mean people die of that. Disney

[00:06:06] is a lot of luck. Yeah, I've got seven year old now and one of my early thoughts was this is great. We can go back and watch all the Disney Princess movies. But every time I look at the

[00:06:18] softest of one and try and recall what it's about, all I think about is trauma, you know, the Lion King incredibly traumatic. Aladdin, she was okay with but even that's quite creepy at in places. I mean, it doesn't do a giant snake at the end. That's quite

[00:06:34] yeah, exactly in this the whole, you know, I'm going to bury you in a underground cave business at the start. So yeah, I haven't really come across a Disney animated fiction yet that I didn't think involved some kind of trauma. Quite a recent one for our family.

[00:06:53] Art Sun Dylan was a massive toy story fan when he was younger than I say over 10 years ago now. But when we first watched Toy Story 3, was at home, we didn't see it in the cinema. And I forget the exact moment, but it was something involving the villain.

[00:07:10] Lots of stories. The strawberry smelling bear. Something happened. Yeah, I think some stories about the following behind him and Dylan just. Yeah, crying. I'm so surprised. He's off his light, you know. That was a one time reaction so that we

[00:07:32] subsequently watched it probably about 100 times and he was fine after that. So all as well, that ends well. We haven't did that so in yet, but that's a series with a great

[00:07:40] legacy of villains. You have saved in the first one. The Al's toy brown guy in the second one and they all have quite sinister kind of plans. I mean, Sid's pretty basic. I'm going to blow up

[00:07:51] personally. Yeah. I'm sure we could come up with a spin on that as well. I'm sure you guys could absolutely love to hear that genuinely. Yeah, it just came out. I mean, yeah, at this

[00:08:05] rate, I imagine the list for you guys to go through is incredibly long and just ever growing at this point. Initially we were kind of, so our first plan was it was going to be James Bond villain's

[00:08:15] only. And we we, oh, after we did gold finger, we kind of got together and agreed that that was probably too limiting and I think as especially is not a huge fan of Bond on my right. Not really,

[00:08:27] so we quickly decided we do, you know, anything and everything and the villain would be the angle we take. And initially I was quite dunted and I thought, oh, I'm going to have start

[00:08:39] writing a list. What's going to go on here? It needs to be interesting. And the problem now is that we have too much, right? I told everybody my season seven picks about a week ago and then

[00:08:52] everybody's excitedly decided that they want to share their season six picks now. So we're currently recording season five is what should be added to this. Yeah, it was so excited to to explore the villains of the films that we, yeah, I'll list it too big. That's wow. Okay,

[00:09:13] I like this. I got to say just to sort of go a little bit more like, you know, inside baseball on this, do love the format of what you guys are doing. And yeah, it's just a fascinating show.

[00:09:23] Just the idea of picking on villains because as we're already getting into right now, there's just so many different angles you can go down. Absolutely. And if you think of one, you know where to come

[00:09:32] and we'll have to have you on and you can I will have a think. Yeah, there's a number of movies that I mean, I'll shout out a couple of episodes of yours that I immediately jumped on like the

[00:09:41] Blade Runner one, for instance, like you choose Blade Runner fan right here. Me too, me too. That was another bit. Yeah, yeah, good choice. My friend, good choice. Yeah, if you ever get round to doing the

[00:09:52] sequel, that is my favorite movie of all time. Well, so Gazz and I are both huge fans of Blade Runner in 2049. I think, okay, I think we both sort of, you know, although we don't want to admit it,

[00:10:02] we kind of preferring to the first one. Oh, I admit it. Pretty. Yeah, I'm with you. So yeah, that will happen. No, and you've got Jared Lito's a villain in

[00:10:15] that. Yeah, you could go with that. I'm not a huge fan of his, but every now and then he really turns it in. Yeah, he's great in, it's a perfect role for him. Yeah. I think his probably his

[00:10:30] offset antics were limited in this because, you know, as a joke, he can send people, you know, horrible things in the post, but as the head of, you know, where in Utah and wherever they are, that's an alien. That's an alien. That's alien. That's alien. What's the, yeah.

[00:10:51] Just you just lost gate points there. Yeah, I wrote the operation. Tyrell, whatever they become Okay, and what is? What is that's right? Well, this is where W came from. He can't really send

[00:11:03] somebody a replicant in the mail because that's true. I think there was he could do on that as from my understanding as he just inconvenience him, you know, on set people with just wearing

[00:11:16] contact lenses. So he was actually blind. That was blind. And that's what he likes to do. Yeah, this will show you forever. The stage hands were that day having to like help him to

[00:11:26] bathroom more. He didn't miss juice or whatever. I just, yeah. I've had rants about that one of the shows. I just think it's completely ridiculous, but I think we all agree with him. I'm in a room with Brian Cox. I'll be fine. Oh, that would be hilarious. Yeah.

[00:11:41] Brian Cox. Lawrence, yeah. Yeah. That might be tricky, mindy. Yes. Yeah, I could think of one or two issues. Yeah. But on that thread, something I wanted to discuss with you guys. And so the big question, but in your minds and in your experience doing

[00:12:00] this show, what do you think makes a great movie villain like what are some of the key ingredients? Well, I feel like I've been talking about. So I gas lead on this, but I just wouldn't say one thing.

[00:12:11] We just released this week our gladiator episode. And I was editing it and I was listening to guys talking about something that I think is really relevant to this question, which is how

[00:12:22] comedists is such a sympathetic villain. And he said, yeah, that's not always a good thing in a villain and then when, do we maybe you'd like to expand on what you meant by that? Well,

[00:12:33] you know what Craig, I was exactly going to expand upon that as it's fresh in my memory. Hey, there's two ways that you can go to make a great villain. You can either go the way,

[00:12:45] riddy Scott and John Logan and Waking Phoenix went in gladiator with comedists. And you can make them a convincing monster who you, you root to fail, but you still elicit sympathy through recognizable human emotions and reactions. So comedists, comedists is a failed son, basically,

[00:13:10] an afailed soldier. And that's a very relatable thing to want to live up to an ideal that your parents have for you. And so his pain reaction to that failure. It lists great sympathy and makes his fall powerful while still making him a boo-hiss villain.

[00:13:31] And the other way that you can go is by, I'm pulling a name out there, you can make it capitalized, crystal-nolens vision of the Joker who is just pure, pure evil. There's no, I suppose he has got humour but besides that there's no redeeming features to him.

[00:13:50] But there's also a kind of a magnetism that draws you to them, makes them iconic as well. There's a very iconic villains in cinema which is what we try and do. So I think you have to

[00:14:05] go to one of those extremes ideally, sympathetic side or the completely redeeming outside. Yeah and I'd say the quality that those characters share, that some of the great movie villains do and I think it's the cardinal rule for a great movie villain is that charisma. So somebody like

[00:14:24] especially Ridley Scott's version of Hannibal Lecter where he takes such great delight in the evil that he puts out into the world. And then the other two sides of the coin are,

[00:14:39] you have the type of villain who knows they're the villain. Somebody like, you know, Charles Dan Sluck, last action hero, he very much knows in a matter where he's the villain but, you know,

[00:14:54] other characters like Dracula for instance, he knows he's the villain. There's no doubt in his mind but then you also get villains who believe that what they're doing is the right thing to do.

[00:15:07] I think in some ways, Chris Tonell is Joker might be one of those. I think that he believes that the world is the thing that's upside down. You know, there's the whole the theory that he's a soldier.

[00:15:26] Yeah, that's right about that. When he talks to two face or Harvey Dent about somebody who's up at best for the soldiers or somebody who kills a mayor, it's all part of the plan

[00:15:41] and you have to kind of agree that that is madness and maybe obviously his methods are not justifiable but you wonder if he believes that he's doing the right thing. Well, that goes into the whole, I suppose timeless discussion about superheroes and super villains

[00:16:05] the argument that people have is that superheroes by their nature are machistic because they defend the status quo and what's so what's so good about defending the status quo. It's a hard

[00:16:16] world out there especially at the moment and time of super villain wants to tear that down. Why not let them? What's the worst it could happen? So there's an interesting theory in the

[00:16:30] Bryan Singer Superman is a really interesting example because he I think he might on some level genuinely believe that Superman represents a threat to humanity not in the same way as the

[00:16:47] character's in Man of Steel do but just his very existence as as a god represents some kind of fundamental existential crisis to humanity but then also what's great about that character,

[00:17:03] that version of Lexus do is he also knows that he's in it for the scam you know he wants his cut of whatever money is made from he's island so that's why I love that version of Lucifer he's

[00:17:14] a great villain so we'll probably get to what he wants. There is something about that there isn't there as well villain that knows what they are and is just comfortable with it and kind of

[00:17:25] owns it I think like you say there's the kind of sympathetic no I'm a crusader for whatever moral issue they're on and they're so blinded by it that they buy into that

[00:17:37] you know i.e. a Thanos right kind of who's like you know this is the only way of doing things versus somebody who's I think of I forget the name of the character but she would tell us you

[00:17:47] thought right in like serenity who's like oh no I know what I am I know I'm a terrible terrible monster I'm a necessary evil yeah you know and like anywhere in between right like you said this something fascinating isn't there about what these characters do in terms of

[00:18:03] sort of unlocking the darker parts of psychology and people's behavior perhaps things maybe you see in ourselves in some respect. Interesting that you always hear uniformly actors when they're asked did you enjoy playing the villain but they all love it but something that's

[00:18:18] rubbish yeah mostly I think unless I'm playing real life villains usually that's when I get it's a little bit of a key I think for some of the probably more fun to play you know like um

[00:18:32] hell a queen of hell than it is to play like I lean where not something like that yeah well I handle elective versus Ted Bundy yeah yeah yeah but now I'm I'm John McGriddy and I find these different

[00:18:48] avenues really really interesting and I like what you said a minute ago just about the idea of having charisma yeah that's one of it and I think that's definitely true right I'm sure that's

[00:18:57] something you guys come across a lot go to all the movies that you have like the ones that are just terrible like they just there's nothing they're not memorable yeah yeah I don't think we'd even

[00:19:07] pick them unless it was in a very rare case we'll have a pick that we've none of us have seen to a night of the hunter I remember we all went in completely blind I don't just pick the

[00:19:20] out of the hat so on a website thought it sounded good so we all had very kind of polarising reaction as well but I think the fortunate side of the eye and I don't know if it has a graze actually

[00:19:33] but I think that is a memorable villain in quite an interesting one so we did have something to play with yeah I'd say so I mean if nothing else he's visually iconic isn't there I don't know about

[00:19:46] current generation but certainly certainly people from from our generation the love hate on the knuckles and the white brim yeah pictures hat even Robert Mitch's face his face is iconic and I would imagine how it'd imagine most people associated with with night of the hunter

[00:20:07] personally yeah yeah no matter why I thought of the film at the time he's certainly certainly an iconic iconic villain and a memorable definitely yeah yeah okay fear probably so that's another big one isn't it both versions oh I haven't seen the original version

[00:20:28] oh I do it you shot the rest of it yeah my maybe I'll fall back you may be yeah maybe I said interesting thread to pull on though yeah what do you guys think about repeat performances

[00:20:44] of villains right like so we mentioned like joker for example like you say cake veil like these movies that get remade the characters that get brought back up time and time again and we

[00:20:53] get to see different performers different versions of them yeah what do you guys think about that it's interesting isn't it in recent times again I don't want to keep on harping about super reforms but this is the area where you get the most repetition of different actors playing

[00:21:09] yeah villain the trolls as an individual the joker is a repeat character for us on die a bottle as we tend to do a platform film every year involving the joker so it's been really interesting to go back and see Cesaro Marrows, Mastachioed humorous and say

[00:21:28] appreciation of the joker in the wacky 60s pop that man yeah and then even watching jacknip lessons performance in in back my 1989 it's surprisingly close to to season remaro's performance yeah with a slightly darker edge but it's actually quite close to to season remaro

[00:21:50] but different and certainly within his origin story following falling into the back to mark it is different but then when he gets a he fledger that's just crank it up to 200 in

[00:22:02] trying to make him scary and he's an oppulsive all the way to the point now that we are with Barry Kyogen having full on facial deformities in the back man so it's interesting to see kind of complete evolution of that particular character from very humorous comic booky

[00:22:23] pop up to this grow task it almost he could fit into again Ridley Scott's Hannibal this new version of the joker at Barry Kyogen's playing I think yeah like Mason Virgil's time yeah I'm interested to see what Barry Kyogen does with it because you don't get to see

[00:22:40] much of him in the back man and what you see of him does feel a bit derivative of that Tom Wait's voice thing that he fledger was doing and I feel like he fledger's Joker has some DNA in common with something like crow where Anna and I say

[00:23:00] genicals in his very very similar to Zara Mero and the thing that's because genicals in was a huge fan of the comics going up so you know that whole Silver Age Golden Age version

[00:23:12] of Joker that was a bit wackier before the five-way revenge yeah but yeah so I think I'm always interested to see with the character like the Joker he's so open to interpretation you know like there's an episode of and we're doing Mask of the Fantas and this season

[00:23:36] little early insight for you there because we're not really not for a while but so we're finally in Tomar Kamels Joker and there's an episode of that money annotated series that that's coming from the 70s which is about how different people see that man differently

[00:23:54] so there's three kids on a campfire they're all talking about Batman in the anime inversion one of the kids imagines him as the kind of Michael I inside Dark Knight Returns Jack Duff crazy old man Batman and someone else he's a complete hero and I think that's

[00:24:12] that's the same with the Joker I'm always excited to see a new film version of the Joker because it's never the same and as much as I found the Joker the film and this is almost tried to save

[00:24:24] but derivative of like taxi driver and the king of comedy I also really enjoyed working things as performance and it's difficult to not enjoy his performance in anything but it'll be interesting to see the sequel to that and see what they do with that as well

[00:24:41] I think it's just it depends on the character so you're not going to get multiple interesting interpretations of Darth Vader unfortunately because it's just here he is and God bless poor old paving christian I think he's wonderful but

[00:25:03] he can't do anything other than try and do James old Jones that's just that that's all he can do yeah so yeah that that is the key for me with reinterpretations of films and villains it's

[00:25:15] can you bring something new to it and if you can't why are you even trying it yeah that's a good point I think in the discussion as well like like he said mentioned the superhero things particularly

[00:25:26] yep Batman Joker perfects example most people understand it same with the Superman like sleuth for thing right it's right my I've always felt that like the whole point is the villain is meant

[00:25:35] to sort of be a kind of opposite yeah well like you know it's like the ying and yang yeah to the main superhero you know like you say the Joker's an interesting one because he is just

[00:25:47] as was described in the dark night in agent of chaos I think that's a really good way of summarizing it and all the various versions of him at least in my view have been a version of

[00:25:58] that yeah right even down to the season of rather memory one of like he's just a wacky kind of doing prank it's like yeah but it's weird and it's like the complete opposite to what Batman is right

[00:26:08] that's all of our keeping stability in order this guy's like I'm just gonna be random you know and that's and that's like the most child friendly version of that whereas as you say you get to like

[00:26:18] the darker interpretations it's like Batman is as you say a fascist he's like someone who is just like this is the only way I'm gonna sort this out justice Joker's the perfect antithesis of the

[00:26:31] act because he's like I'm all about chaos I'm all about nothing matters I'm a nyanist I'm a psychopath that's like you can't reason with me and it just makes for like you say it very interesting

[00:26:42] interesting villain particularly in that genre and it's fascinating to see isn't it more and all these days as superhero stuff tends to be far more popular I think than any of us have a

[00:26:52] sort of coming right oh yeah because I guess you guys are similar to me and like love the comic but thing but even now it's like it's a lot with video games you know when I was a kid I was the kid

[00:27:03] who lived comic book and video games and that was quite yeah look down upon and rare and now it's the norm um yeah interesting what you're saying by joke it just quickly um yeah the other way

[00:27:14] that he's the antithesis of Batman is Batman intentionally dresses to instill fear and he dresses like a bat and kids just get a bat send the dark whereas Joker ostensibly dresses like a thing that

[00:27:26] kids love a clown right yeah but you know it is the complete opposite of that um and uh that that is what leads to robbing I think to have a colorful character in there that can appeal

[00:27:40] right right yeah yeah isn't coming but a lot of them now coming book films yeah a lot of them a bit too much it's funny no book but at that point I was just thinking it does lend

[00:27:53] though to a quite a variety of characters right and I think it's something that if we're talking about for example MC user good examples talk about right we're often known most common criticism

[00:28:03] is don't have very strong villain most of the time when you get one that's stand the one that is good it stands out like head and shoulders like I just today finished echo because I was like oh

[00:28:14] I'll watch this and it was fine but the main thing I kept thinking was like man I love Vincent I don't know if he's thinking a bit like he's he's amazing but again it's a standout

[00:28:25] because I've watched a bunch of other shows and I couldn't tell you who the villains were in like uh when you know the winters soldier say oh what was it you know Captain America winters soldier

[00:28:33] series like I couldn't tell you much about other than the song I don't remember much about I got the heart yes you know for I guess it's those sorts of things where you kind of like

[00:28:44] I'm sure it was fine I'm sure that we're good stuff in there but it I couldn't it does it's not like when Vincent not for a walk on screen you go oh here we go you know something interesting is

[00:28:53] gonna happen the only other one that comes close is to me is David Tenon as the purple man in the music Jones yeah oh yeah so in there being yeah yeah yeah that's the thing isn't it it

[00:29:07] takes skill for them to be able to bring something to the table on like you say him and make it standout particularly in a genre which relies primarily on heroes and villains right right yeah so I think

[00:29:19] I think it's the fun something Kazoo's gonna say uh I forgot on my point it was it was going to be that purple man but I forget what it was all right yeah just just to go back to to the marble series

[00:29:36] I haven't seen Echo yet um the last one I forgot about it completely honestly it's it's fine I probably I don't want to be horrible so it cuz I just finished I was like that was all right

[00:29:47] but it wasn't yeah nothing really get out to me I think you know but that's the kind of the thing where I is as you were saying this is why it's so important to get that one aspect of the character

[00:29:58] or of that storytelling narrative right isn't it yeah yeah you know it's like you said super is it's here is a villain's that's the baseline for all these things oh yeah so called god omega

[00:30:08] yeah quite a lot of the time the heroes only going to be as impressive as their villain so if you've got a weak villain chances are your heroes also gonna be weak because if they're beating nothing

[00:30:21] then what a VHV yeah all the virtual themselves yeah you know yeah I'm on the safe that's been the truth yeah yeah and then you die in one one exactly no no no no yeah you got fire breathing in three

[00:30:37] not three yeah yeah but then he got fire he doesn't beat him um uh go be as does he he gets to become a fire breathe and she beats go be as is that it yeah

[00:30:52] I didn't remember it's always it's always like a game yeah fire fire with fire in those first three yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it is so yeah that's that's very much the case I think for

[00:31:08] most of these shows filmed series is safe it's why it's an important thing to get right something I wanted to ask you guys about was how do you feel about the trend of villains

[00:31:19] becoming more of anti-heroes that seems to be a thing also late like jocers kind of an interesting one to sort of springboard off the back of that right some of these characters you get

[00:31:30] there are villainous but a lot of interpretations you like as you said earlier try to do the sympathy thing and then sometimes they'd lean so much into that that they end up becoming like

[00:31:40] this anti-hero in a way and that seems to be a quite popular trend at the minute yeah I suppose does it get back to to maybe venom in the eighties would that be well that kind of yeah yeah yeah

[00:31:52] but that's the example that's something bleeping out to me punish her yeah yeah yeah I think I think I'm a big wrestling firm which which listeners of our show we'll know and I think if you have a bad guy then you don't have the courage

[00:32:16] of their convictions and you make them cool then I think there's just something slightly wrong in that if the crowd aren't doing if they're cheering you then someone's been lost in the recipe there especially with a film like whacking Phoenix is joker ways these kind of become

[00:32:37] this kind of icon for in cells online to you know tell them say what's your cells guys well we're gonna you're gonna joker yeah that there's something I don't want to be a lot of

[00:32:55] instance they dangerous about it but it's just in my mind it's just not right you need to for me delineate quite clearly where the hero and the villain are you can have shades of grey

[00:33:09] by all means but I'm not massive fan of anti anti villains of the general anti heroes even as a general yeah yeah I really liked spikes or gone buffing the vampire slayer I immediately

[00:33:28] left him as a villain I thought he was cool kind of you know opposite to what he's saying about wrestling heels there he was a complete bastard but also he it was fun and you when he started to side with

[00:33:48] buffing him the scoobies I kind of felt like it had been earned and that's the that's the important distinction I guess is whether you have the space to earn that so in television in

[00:34:00] long format storytelling I think that's easier to do or in something like a cinematic universe I guess which to me is just long television you know then as much as I have laughed at and made fun of the

[00:34:12] idea that the MCU is quite what I'm quote not cinema in a way I agree it's television but right large but so another example that I really love in avatar the last day of bender is Zuko

[00:34:28] so his his his transition to becoming part of the team is so earned and especially with the end of book two when you're expecting him to join the team and I want to really funny when you

[00:34:42] have the scene it but it's like 10 years old now we've done an episode on it it's been so good so there you go so when when you fully expect him to turn on as you live but in his moment of weakness

[00:34:56] and and desperate love for his father's approval he turns on ang yeah just in in his whole arc to me that feels like such a huge moment because you can already see in his face that he already

[00:35:13] immediately regrets what he's done and yes and yeah and him joining the team to me felt right and and that's an example where I think it really works he's not really an anti-hero

[00:35:25] after that I suppose he's he's a full and a hero and I feel like the recent star was trilogy to me really lent him to and maybe ripped off avatar the last day of bender

[00:35:37] I think they want it bent over to be Zuko and it didn't quite work out I think you're very much on to something then I think as definitely shades of that for sure yeah it's interesting what you're saying here I think I agree with you actually I think

[00:35:56] if you use it I guess as like a transitional period yeah then it makes more sense right like what you're saying if you're gonna turn the villain to the hero they're gonna have like an anti-hero phase

[00:36:07] yeah I guess yeah and then eventually land there but as you say you have to build in character work in order for that to happen yeah I mean really Scott's Hannibal is an anti-hero because

[00:36:16] Mason Virger is is the villain of Hannibal and he does a lot of heinous things in that film but their characters that you don't necessarily like so in that respect he is the anti-hero of the

[00:36:29] in fact you you've got you wouldn't be hard pressed to argue that everybody he kills in that film is asking for it so that's an example of where the character is an anti-hero from the

[00:36:43] outside of the film but because silence of the lands exists you could argue that they had the ability to do that because it's a sort of not a really a sequel but a sort of spiritualcy

[00:36:54] so in that respect I think that can work as well yeah I remember actually I think to remember off the back of that that part the reason why Hopkins came back and did one last performance in

[00:37:08] Redragon was because I think he was really disappointed yeah that like it was seen so much as an anti-hero he kind of wanted to reverse that a little bit and was kind of like and if you watch that one

[00:37:21] he is way more of a to quote you guys he's more of a boo hiss villain a lot more in Redragon like he's just out and I evil yeah he really kind of feels like yeah yeah which if it's

[00:37:33] interesting you see like actors do that right kind of you know oh actually I think you've missed the point before this character supposed to be let's let's reverse this if we can okay the original

[00:37:43] Thomas Harris novel of Hannibal yeah when he even further with it's but it's ending the film concludes with with Hannibal just on a plane cheerfully feeding a young boy some sort of

[00:37:57] really utter sprain with a little week to the camera and an irisauce you do but the book the book concludes with him slowly drugging Clarice Starling into essentially becoming some people right and they become a cannibal cannplin so that's off into the moonlight together

[00:38:16] it's like a little bit too light. this is extremely high pervillios it's only regret it's not merely regret it's not only regret a big little bit regret of mine is that we never got to see Brian fuller realize that in Hannibal

[00:38:31] because he got the right sticker he knows that's what he was doing yeah oh yeah definitely it's interesting isn't it I mean as well I'm just going through like a list on Wikipedia of like

[00:38:42] anti-heroes I'm just kind of like I don't know if I agree with half of the some of these just seem like like Hann Solo's on here and I'm like he's not like he's a hero

[00:38:51] he's a guy quint from jewels again oh man so hero not a villain just just a boat be a former like both of those guys in the same boat in that they want the payday don't

[00:39:06] me and I suppose you could argue they're not my heroic because of that but actually you know once they both get out there they do say well Hansover was meant to suck question to up

[00:39:17] what the love to you know what I mean yeah I do yeah it's true it's like yeah John McLean's in here like that's not right yeah yeah exactly well yeah I mean yeah and some of them like

[00:39:36] a Tyler Durden's I think of um when one of my two absolute favorites now has got to be breaking bad and beckles or no I'm here for tagging this is you can you can add a

[00:39:50] list of people Rick's and shares from Rick and Boy people that are like on this list of if you idealize them you miss the point essentially you're like you're a little bit of a

[00:39:58] prano he's kind of charactery like they're not anti heroes they are the villains of their story yeah it's very clear you just yeah but you say it's it's interesting that that still something that gets thrown around a lot today yeah a lot of the all have never been

[00:40:14] anything you're always characters I was going to say a lot of people have never heard the phrase depiction does not equal endorsement and they're just to see that it whatever the protagonist of the pieces logically that it is surely Skyler

[00:40:32] all the hell with it is the worst woman in the world they're at the stake yeah that responses pure sexism this guy's and everything being me and Jack from secret is had a good old rant about yeah absolutely Rick is but as you say like an interesting look

[00:40:50] right at the the way that people interpret heroes and villains and I just yeah I was I was like most interested to have a look at this with you guys because it's just yeah I mean you

[00:41:00] look at some still scrolling for this list I'm just going looking through these going yeah what is interesting it's no so Tony's a partner and Rick Sanchez have something in common which is something that we said earlier was a good ingredient for a villain which is charisma

[00:41:13] and maybe that's why in the anti-hero vein they're so beloved by fans but yes what a way is it intentionally a charisma vacuum so why he became popular I'm not sure and I'm saying

[00:41:27] that and I'm wearing the glasses that he wears at the end of the break you well yes because I love that show so much but I was I wasn't looking at him thinking I want to be

[00:41:37] well to white I was not going to think he knows that's quite nice and functional window where they're from so I ended up looking at what they were so yeah this is brilliant it's not me going

[00:41:48] I want to be like that guy it's just yeah yeah purely aesthetic and yeah I don't understand why he's become kind of lannised and why it'd be on sexism, why skylight is so hated because yeah

[00:42:04] in fact as she was in coat with him but he was very rich his decision to save her from that fate so yeah I don't know no it's it's one of those fascinating things I think it's where

[00:42:21] the villains and I'm yes I'm calling him a villain if you have a problem with that go back to the breaking bad episode but the whole thing of like when a character is doing something

[00:42:32] that is morally wrong or in this case illegal just straight up illegal but you're kind of rooting for them and the way that things are frames right and that's that's an aspect of certain

[00:42:42] villains is the way that their stories portrayed if like okay I know they're a bad guy but I'm kind of wanting to get away with it yeah I think because of that people end up putting them in an

[00:42:51] answer here or camp and then sort of almost like forgetting that the point of the story is no they are a bad person I think this is a story of their downfall in skillet game would be lying if he claimed that wasn't his intention because early as

[00:43:07] epic breaking bad you were made sympathised with Walter you know he's got his cancer diagnosis he yep it's sort of the only person that this kid Jesse can turn to initially he comes up against

[00:43:23] two co-hours an out and out awful villain and when he when he beats two co it feels like a moment of catharsis and that's why you root for him and what the show does to you quite it really

[00:43:37] sneaks up when you with this is it builds up this relationship between the audience and the protagonist where you are made to root for and then it has the book pull of go I'm actually this guy is horrible

[00:43:49] and he's drunk and killed Jesse's girlfriend and at that point you're too invested to go well I knew it was a bad guy so you're going to have to make a shift to come to terms with the idea

[00:44:04] you shouldn't be really full him I think that's the trick that it pulls off it's this kind of an inversion there of what happened online recently at the end of the last season of the boys where suddenly a load of conservatives realized that homelander was a bad guy

[00:44:26] whereas in the very first episode of the boys season one he purposely crushes a plane full of people right twice I think he crushes a partitions private plane and then he allows a commercial absent your jet to plummet to everybody's death in the ocean including small children who

[00:44:47] are fans of his but it took conservatives three more years to realise that homelander actually he's not a good guy he's a bad guy I've ended that's amazing yeah that's quite something oh my goodness that's me feels like watching the godfather and getting to the end of the

[00:45:10] third when I'm going hold on us it's makes me rethink everything everything is like yeah it's just it's like really you didn't get it from off okay close the massive irony of that is Michael Spender's the whole of godfather three trying

[00:45:25] everything he can can not be like a bad guy oh so oh my back in yeah oh the chino anyway it's it's it's just fascinating I say I find that just amazing people's

[00:45:43] different interpretations right as you say well like it's supposed to be the point of a story this is like no no this is the bad guy's story but yeah I guess maybe that goes back to what

[00:45:55] we were saying earlier right the start like the appeal of actors also went to get involved it's just something there a little bit of us all of a little darkness somewhere in the back of

[00:46:03] our heads it's like I quite like to get away with that yeah and if it's a character you're familiar with I was find there's there's just something of a thrill of hearing that and then you like

[00:46:15] is it for a role that you like of a villain yes like when I heard that Christopher walk him was going to be in the dune and always got us going actually yes yeah I was I was I was I was I was I

[00:46:28] I can't wait to see that because I really against his wishes I really like they would just do you know so I'm not like anything that they've literally just so I don't know okay

[00:46:39] and you know well there's there's the other side of that when people hit that he said you were going to be in the joker and what he was known for at the time oh yeah yeah yeah yeah

[00:46:51] you come out of that with it with the pleasant revelation actually he's perfect for it he's actually an actor's can act you know yeah so shock isn't it guys yeah yeah he would have

[00:47:02] fun that he could have played something other than they get help like I don't need yeah yeah it's from Australia it's not even America yeah he tricked us all yeah no you're absolutely right Kale I think there is definitely that especially if you're like

[00:47:19] us right you're into into the films and you're into the scene the sort of what goes into it the mechanics it is always exciting yeah you're right when you hear a certain actor go at

[00:47:28] role yeah oh okay and yeah I'm absolutely with you there man as a fan of jean yeah like really excited to see what Christopher Walker's gonna pull off there as a as our

[00:47:37] Emperor yeah wait yeah I'm with the Bond Villains as well you don't necessarily know who the Villains going to be hey but there's a you expect something from a Bond Villains so when you hear

[00:47:47] yeah for instance have you by them it's gonna be the villain Bond and you okay okay I'm going to see that yeah yeah and I'll keep you one of the better ones I think yeah yeah excellent yeah

[00:48:01] and then there's other times where you get you know a very obvious blowfeld right for stuff what's bless you yeah I wasn't the fan of that one no it's quite a unfortunate scene

[00:48:20] like he's doing like a vanna her so impressed me sorry no I was gonna say it turned out quite incipid and the the conclusion to suspected the torture device that he has for Bond is

[00:48:34] one of the weakest I've ever seen again not a massive one fan oh no it's just real yeah it's shocking and then the off-handed nature of how he's dispatched in the last film no time to die and it's just you just think uh okay then I'm sorry

[00:48:53] for me a midi rant if you will for a second about that scene because like came out the cinnamon I saw it with my cousin in lil Alex and I just I drove her and we were talking

[00:49:01] about that scene in particular like I don't know about you but I found myself I was so distracted in that scene because of obviously the way it sets up we're like you know he's got the virus on

[00:49:11] him he's like you're just waiting for him to touch him at some point I said my came out that scene going is Bond normally gesture that much I feel like he was gesturing like 65% more than normal just to

[00:49:24] build tension like he's probably waving his hands around that whole scene and like you're just waiting from just to like smack him in the face and did to touch up against him or something.

[00:49:33] I'm trying to do just taking a living ever in any of the other films and they just can't see what I mean he's so stoic it is like that one scene where suddenly he's like and another thing

[00:49:43] and you're just like oh okay you're really having this bit up I'm like you say and then he just then he just snaps and grabs and bites the throat because he gets under a skin you're kind of like

[00:49:53] I like you said guys you basically just come out and go on all right then yeah just to think just so off hand and yeah it kind of to the point where you just say what what was the point in

[00:50:05] cleaning in the peel it just to use him as a simple plot mechanic you get it just done so then that's quite simple rather than use this eye to get him a you could have.

[00:50:16] The way it was visually said I couldn't help but think about similar scene in mission impossible where the the villain from the I was forget the names of these oh go on I can think of that

[00:50:32] the yes they're my six guy the defector when they go back to him in the cell Solomon Lane and they're talking Solomon Lane and Sally's similar lighting similar sales and we're certainly everything yeah what that made me think was that mission impossible has

[00:50:51] been so much better than Bond for so many years oh true true true true that's that's a series that I think even when the film is divisive the villains good so a lot of people don't

[00:51:04] I'm mission impossible three but everybody likes to see more half men because it's really amazing the only thing I'd say about the villains in the mission impossible franchise is I think it's

[00:51:15] more a case of the actors themselves being iconic and what they bring to it because I challenge anybody to name any of those villains I haven't got a ski bdy but I need those villains

[00:51:28] I can say Philippe Seymour Hoffman was excellent I can tell you heavy cavalry was excellent I can say Pum Clementi off in the last film was excellent but I don't have any of those characters

[00:51:41] a name yeah that's true the villain in the Brad Bird one is very forgettable as well but that's a strong film yeah yeah yeah I'd very much agree with that so just on on that

[00:51:58] no I'm curious what are some of your guys like favorite villains of all time this was the one I was dreading is how do you choose choosing between your children well I say again I'm going to be nice

[00:52:11] I won't ask you to rank them it's just favorites just whoever comes to mind I Lord I would have to get with something quite simple I'm going to say Michael Myers from the Halloween

[00:52:26] franchise there's a blankness a blank slate to him obviously he's wearing the pale white mask he's still quite a lot of the time he's got the movement of a Panther he's not prone to

[00:52:44] even making any any vocal noise except for in the Rob Zombie versions where he's screaming and saying die and so forth and there's something you can put whatever you want onto that

[00:52:57] like canvas that makes him genuinely terrifying for me I was I was a big fan of the last trilogy they've been going to green astrology I don't care what anybody says I think all three

[00:53:09] of bangers myself okay and I think particularly in Halloween kills I think he's a genuinely terrifying character which is what you want in a horror film if something terrifying right in a villain

[00:53:26] then that's done for me he doesn't need to have one line as or be charismatic for me in this case he's just he's a force of nature it is is yeah shape he's not a human he's a shape

[00:53:42] he's iconic and he's a tonic and I'm sure he'll be back from from that metal threshing device at some points somehow yeah that's my shit I don't want it's indeed yeah so like Freddy well just to pick

[00:54:05] an outlayer I think I love out an out villains like I said earlier about the Kirkin from Highlander and he was an early favorite so he's won't always kind of set with me but just to

[00:54:20] say something really kind of different and one that we maybe will cover on the show but maybe we will never figure out how to I really love Kirts in a pop-lip now because he's barely and he doesn't

[00:54:33] really do anything but his presence is such a threat throughout the whole thing yes that when you finally confronted with him and his horrible you know cat-up thing that he's living in his death mask visage and his weird towels and everything he just feels like a huge threat

[00:54:56] for every second he's on screen and brando really kind of sells the idea that he's a threat and even though having seen it before I know nothing bad it's gonna happen as soon as he appears I feel dread

[00:55:10] so he's he's a favorite of mine yeah I'm kind of the classic villain bane I would have to say Concey Brown's Kirkin just because he's a fun villain he yeah good old fashioned

[00:55:33] no no yeah I like that I like also the idea of like a villain that you guys have picked some interesting ones there the idea of like you say one that's just a force of nature and the other

[00:55:44] one that's just like a non-manous presence that just kind of hovers yeah over a film both good qualities both interesting ones I like you said different versions that you can have for sure I'd have to agree with that what about you you have a favorite

[00:55:58] villain I mean yeah that's the thing a favorite it's it's tough isn't it it is it is I am definitely partial to some of the more comic book he ones like why think about villain that's sort of like

[00:56:13] when my brain immediately jumps to yeah I tell you who I did really enjoy recently and I kind of enjoyed the reprisal after rewatching it was quite enjoyed what's it like well

[00:56:25] in well in the foes green goblin yeah I think that would have been one of my first kind of big superhero films as a kid and then like watching him do it again in homecoming and just

[00:56:35] be just as terrifying yeah it's like he's even a westerke pick that very like oh yeah and it's and it's that kind of villain where he is just literally a mad cacling super villain throwing bombs and punching people you're just you know yeah it's like wow okay fascinating

[00:56:54] like I kind of wish we'd saw it seen a bit more of him is anything so I was really happy to see him come back that's the thing that even mind to me of an interesting thing that happens in spider

[00:57:04] man that happens in with villains and other films is he has a moment where he tries to tempt and recruit the hero so in spider that's right that's him and they're on the roof

[00:57:15] and yeah imagine what we could do together I was like the villain to do that I think that's always quite an interesting feat to have it is isn't it and again I goes back to what we were saying

[00:57:25] at the start right of like feeling like they're on the right path yeah kind of thing and just not being persuaded in any other direction oh fantastic guys I've really enjoyed this um to close

[00:57:38] us out guys I'd love to just throw this over to you uh where can the good people find you and what you do well you're doing the plugs you can listen to us we are a diabolical evil schemes

[00:57:53] done better and we reformulate classic movie villains plans in our own unique humorous style you can find us by our website at www.diabolicalpod.com where on Apple Spotify or the usual providers

[00:58:07] YouTube and we're on socials at DiabolicalPod so please do follow us and give it a try now I feel like you should know listeners because this is audio that gazz is currently in classic movie

[00:58:18] villain style stroking seek out I was just thinking that's like that's so annoying oh no evil it was coming at the most in opportune moments these two though yeah my wise yeah some to my

[00:58:37] podcast really and I think I'll be short of it links and all of that for you guys because it is absolutely worth checking out I think it's genuinely brilliant thanks thank you guys so much for

[00:58:48] making this happen I know it's been a bit of a struggle to get us trying to meet together yeah just for us just because of the geography but yeah yeah we appreciate it really appreciate

[00:58:59] your time so thank you very much for coming on thank you hopefully we'll hear from you soon with your own idea about which villain you think you all better than or absolutely I have to think

[00:59:09] about that and there we have it thank you so much Cregan gazz for coming onto the podcast and sharing your love of movie villains with us I hope you guys listening really enjoyed this

[00:59:20] episode do yourself a favor and go and check out the diabolical podcast it is absolutely worth your time I have left links in the show notes we can go and check it out give them a follow check

[00:59:30] him out on their website their social media pages all that good stuff and more and if you enjoy this episode let them know I'm sure they would love to hear from you why not share your favorite

[00:59:41] movie villain with them or share it with me as well I am gonna be opening up a discord server page just for movie villains sorry I'd love you guys to jump in there and have a chat with me about

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[01:00:56] recommend the guy enough and finally before I wrap up I have alluded to there being some changes coming in the podcast and that is very much the case in fact next week will be the last episode

[01:01:12] in the current format of the podcast what do I mean by that well you'll just have to come back next week to find out more I will be giving you a full breakdown of what that means in the next

[01:01:23] episode of the podcast which features four returning guests discussing a movie based topic it was a ton of fun to record and put together and honestly I think it's one of the best episodes

[01:01:36] of the show so make sure you come back for that and make sure you don't miss anything else that comes after that because there are some really cool stuff on the horizon for the podcast and this

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[01:01:58] yourself a favor go and check out diabolical podcast go and watch your favourite movie featuring your favourite movie villain why not make sure you meet me right back here for another episode of the podcast and some very big changes coming soon see you then