242. Traitor (2008)

[00:00:38] Welcome to SpyHards Podcast, I'm Agent Scott. And I'm Cam the Provocateur, getting dragged into a street fight. Um, hopefully it ends you. I'm done. I mean, this film we're going to talk about this week says that you can't get dragged into a street fight, but I would argue, judging from my own experiences, dragged into a street fight. And your goblin-looky face after quite a few street fights. I mean, you've not won many, I'll tell you that.

[00:01:06] I'm the cause of the street fight. When I walk down the street, people want to have a fight. They just throw things at you, just like, boo! Get away! If this were like an old movie, they'd be throwing tomatoes. Ah, that's what I should do next time I see you. Mmm. Not fresh vegetables, but rotten vegetables. Of course. Really whiffy ones. But, um, I'll tell you one thing, we didn't whiff Cam. Hmm. And that's the last few weeks of podcasting. Yes, we had some heavy hitters that people seemed to really enjoy.

[00:01:35] And it's good to hear, because we had a lot of fun with both of these very different episodes. Yeah, I mean, two weeks ago we reviewed Brenda Starr, the 1987-1989-1991, depending on where you live, uh, quasi-spy film starring Brooke Shields and Timothy Dalton. Yeah, yeah. Comic book adaptation that no one seemed to know that was a comic book adaptation. Or existed.

[00:02:02] Is it a spy-hard special? We usually reserve that term for movies from the 30s, 40s. Does this count? I feel like it maybe doesn't. I feel like it maybe doesn't because of the caliber of the cast. Mm-hmm. But the actual, like, notoriety of the film, I put it, I think there's some spy-hard specials in air quotes that more people have seen than Brenda Starr. You're really besmirching the name of George Sanders, who appeared in a lot of spy-hard specials.

[00:02:29] Hey, hey, hey, Mr. Thumb himself, you leave him alone. Um, but we, uh, we, uh, like hearing your feedback, so we've, uh, scoured the internet to find some of your thoughts on Brenda Starr first, and we'll get to the other one in a minute. But it's just interesting doing sort of the dip test on the internet. You put a film out, you see what comes back. Is it known? Is it not? And this one? Apparently not. I mean, on, uh, Twitter we have, uh, I am not your father saying, how did I miss this turd? Firing up Tubi right now.

[00:02:59] It is sort of a Tubi special. Um, that is for sure. I will, I will also compliment them on, uh, their at on X, which is flat earth denier. Well, I mean, I brought up on the show that I'm legit shocked because I do listen to a number of Flat earth podcasts. Flat earth podcasts. That's right. Scott, I will not go on that boat trip with you. I know what's going to happen.

[00:03:22] Um, but, uh, you know, I listened to a lot of, you know, bad movie podcasts or not a lot, but you know, the key ones, how did this get made? We hate movies, things like that. How has this movie gone completely not acknowledged? Because first off, I did somewhat enjoy it, you know, in a very campy way, but like it offers you so much from the point of view of a bad movie podcast. You go through it scene by scene. You have untold things to, you know, make fun of.

[00:03:52] If you go through Brenda Starr scene by scene, I think you've got enough fodder for a book. You could write a thesis about Brenda Starr. There is enough there to question your own life choices, but it did also give us, you know, Brooke Shields riding alligators. So, uh, you know, what are you going to do? She's a star in more ways than one. Uh, and speaking of, uh, uh, another thing this film brought us, and this comes from, uh,

[00:04:19] the great Michael Kenyon over on Instagram. Michael says, personally, I am enjoying Agent Scott's journey of foot fetish self-discovery. Another great episode, chaps, and always great to hear from Shayla. I don't remember me making a foot fetish comment in this episode, but if that is, oh, of course you do, but if that is the sort of which I'm going to fall on for this show, I'm okay with it.

[00:04:43] I do recall it because it was like me making a note quietly of time to get Scott some help. This is becoming a problem. I mean, hey, Cam, it's summertime. Everyone's wearing flip-flops now. So it's my favorite time of the year. You're like a dog chasing cars. You wouldn't have to do what to do if you caught one. No, no, no, no. Um, especially Rebecca Ferguson's. Anyway, moving on.

[00:05:08] Last one I want to mention is going back to X and this comes from James Sexton 007. And James says, it was a simple cartoon brought to life or a cheap thirties film. Pretty bad all around, but I still had fun. And if that isn't a capsule review for our episode, I don't know what is. It is. And you know what? It is fun. I had fun watching Brenda Starr. So I have zero regrets. And I'm really glad that we brought Shayla on because I think all three of us had a blast doing this one. Yeah.

[00:05:37] And Timothy Dalton brought us a rather handsome look in a eyepatch. That's right. That's right. And it started a great eyepatch debate. So you know what? We want to hear more from you. Those listening right now, who did wear the eyepatch best out there in Hollywood? Let us know. Yeah. You know, I might have a foot fetish, but I haven't got an eyepatch fetish yet. But you're definitely developing one slowly. I think I may be. I may be. But there is another episode we wanted to talk about, Cam. Yes.

[00:06:05] We had an interview with Michelle Arcand, the editor of Tomorrow Never Dies. It was a really great, candid interview. And we had some great feedback on it. Simon Grubb over on X says, this one's up there with your Clemen interview. Top stuff, gents. Best in the podcast business. Well, I mean, thank you very much for that comment at the end there. But, you know, I definitely thought about the Clemen one while we were recording our interview

[00:06:32] with Michelle Arcand and that I was going like, a lot of this stuff feels like it's not the kind of thing that's typically mentioned on podcasts. It's not the kind of thing that's out there. I mean, people know there was some difficulties on Tomorrow Never Dies for sure. But I felt like this gave us real insight. And that's something Clemen definitely did. Huge time. Yeah. I think like Jeff Clemen, it was an inauspicious launch week for that episode. It kind of grew over time.

[00:07:01] People found out about it and eventually got nominated from some awards and all kinds of jazz. Right. Michelle had a fantastic week in terms of behind the scenes numbers, if anyone cares to track that sort of stuff. You can see it on YouTube. Some of the clips blew up. It's great. But because there's really some stories there that I just think people don't know about. And this will, it's the magic of podcasting. It's the magic of the format we live in. Is that these stories will now live on forever recorded at Spy Hearts Podcast.

[00:07:29] And I'm so glad we get the opportunity to bring them to you. Yeah. Yeah. And exactly. We had a couple more comments on Instagram. Ryan Holt from Analyze This Mr. Bond, which is a great name, by the way, on Instagram, said, this is a must listen. And he shared it in his stories. So we also appreciate anyone who helps spread the word of interviews like this because, you know what, that's how Wikipedia pages get updated. Things like that.

[00:07:55] You know, it helps us out and it helps give the full picture of the movie, you know, regardless of us. Yeah. And that goes back to the Jeff Cleman thing again. That was sort of a slow build. Thanks to people sharing the episode. So keep sharing, folks. You know, if you're a big Brenda Star fan, share that episode. If you're a big fan of the Michelle episode, share it because, you know, Cam and I listened to a lot of podcasts recently on The Town. They were talking about these like bot driven campaigns on places like Twitter to boost the

[00:08:24] media and all these sort of things like film campaigns and music campaigns. We don't have that sort of budget. We are reliant on you. That's right. That's right. And lastly, we had a comment from BornBlackandGold at MBGreenman on X who had this to say. He says, so far, I like his stories from the very beginning of the interview. What I have been finding with many of your interview subjects is that they try not to compromise with what makes them happy.

[00:08:51] And that has led to success in the film or music industries. Really good stuff. And you know what? I think like Michelle is a really great underline to that fact because he talked a lot about he could have gone further down the Hollywood road. He could have done, you know, a lot of these big productions, but there was a passion and an interest in working out of Quebec and with friends and then also creating his own music later in life as he's doing now.

[00:09:17] It was about pursuing creative endeavors that ultimately made him happy. And you're right. That is something we have seen many times where people are pursuing even like a topic, you know, whether it's usually going to be spy cinema if it's something we're doing. And they are pursuing these types of stories because they're what excites them and makes them happy. Yeah. And I think that also translates to us a little bit, not to get too heady about it, but this podcast is not SEO friendly.

[00:09:46] This podcast is not, you know, perhaps casting as wide a net as a podcast should because we're not doing reviews of Disclosure Day or Toy Story 5. We are in the weeds of spy movies and we love it here. We're getting lost in it. It's up to our necks. It's just so much water. And we love focusing on this and that's our passion. And I really resonate with Michelle on that. Yeah.

[00:10:14] I may have compromised my happiness watching Jack Ryan Ghost War, but you know, that's going to happen sometimes. You misnamed it. Did I? Yeah. Oh, of course. Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan Ghost War. Yes. Yes. Yeah. You can't get that wrong or else you may be branded as a traitor. Oh. Oh. Segway. Cam, whose side are they on? I don't know.

[00:10:44] Not ours. I can tell that. Or maybe they are. Maybe that's the whole problem. We don't know whose side anyone's on anymore. Wait, no one's ever on our side. That's how we know. While the players may be confusing, we always know they're not on our side. The spyhard side, the two of us definitely stand alone. It's us against it all. Frankly, just everyone against us. Yeah.

[00:11:11] It's not in like a sort of like no one knows we exist. It's actually a united front against us. We have brought everyone else together. In hatred of us. And our Condor Man coverage. Well, we will never stop shining a light on Condor Man. I'm not sure Condor Man can stand up to the light we shine upon it. But we will continue to shine that light. Keep bouncing, Oliver Reed. Keep bouncing. Oh, you do it, buddy. We have a film to talk about this week.

[00:11:42] I usually, I always start to say it's an interesting film. We have a film. Yes, we do, actually. Yes, the 2008 film Traitor starring Don Cheadle. Yes. Yeah. And I don't mean by not saying interesting. It doesn't mean to color my thoughts on it. It's more just like I had heard myself in a recent playback of one of the episodes saying interesting. And I realize I say it for every film. So I'm trying to be like, not every film is necessarily interesting. Something has to, if everything's interesting, nothing's interesting.

[00:12:12] It's sort of like when I say, I'm curious when I'm doing interviews. Right. Is Cam ever curious? I'm always curious. I am like a cat. I am just always curious. You do seem like the sort of person to push a glass off the side just to see what happens. I think between a dog and a cat, I definitely lean more towards a cat. And I'm a dog. And ironically, we never discussed this in our Cats and Dogs episode. We didn't.

[00:12:42] And you know what? That means I'm smarter. Oh, I guess I'm the dumb dumb that chases cars. And catches them, unfortunately. Well, then that happens. And this film opens with a car. So I shouldn't chase that one. No, no, you shouldn't. No. So yes, Traitor. That's what we're discussing this week. It's been a while since we've done the 2000s. Yeah, I guess it has been, actually.

[00:13:11] That sort of post-9-11 pocket that they had going on for a while. Because we've had some mission movies, but we've gone past 2008 already. Yeah, that era of those apprehensions regarding terrorism that really did color, especially spy cinema. And we've tackled movies that fall into that. Obviously, the Bourne films are really fueled by that sort of energy. But even something like Body of Lies falls into that. And definitely... What was that one with Leo DiCaprio?

[00:13:41] Body of Lies. And definitely this week. That's right. That's why I'm the cat, folks. I'm thinking of The Recruit as the other one I'm coming up with. Yeah, The Recruit. Did that one? That one didn't really. I don't know. It was like 2004, 2005. Yeah, but it was more about the CIA training school. And then there was a conspirator at the core of the CIA. Oh, shut up. All right, fine. Whatever. That's why he's the cat. That's why I'm the dog. That's right.

[00:14:11] Okay. Okay, well, if you've never taken in Traitor before, here is your synopsis. Traitor, the truth is complicated. When straight-arrow FBI agent Roy Clayton heads up the investigation into a dangerous international conspiracy, all the clues seem to lead back to former U.S. Special Operations Officer Samir Horn.

[00:14:37] Interesting that they frame it around the Guy Pearce character. The Guy Pearce character who does not feel like the protagonist of this film. Well, he's not the protagonist, but I suppose that's what happens when your main character is pretty much having his motivations obscured. Morally compromised, I wrote down. Well, it's also, no, no, I mean, like, in terms of the fact they're hiding from the audience where this guy even stands through, like, half the movie.

[00:15:05] And so the only clear point of view is really what's coming from the Guy Pearce character, especially when you're writing a synopsis. I mean, I did have a hankering early on that he would be working for some sort of government agency just because it would be a weird thing to have ostensibly the quote-unquote air quotes bad guys as your leads, whereas the quote-unquote good guys are the ones chasing them and painted as the villain.

[00:15:32] Right. If this had ended with Don Cheadle as a suicide bomber, it would be not a movie shown in, like, two or three thousand screens. No. Yeah. No. It may get picked up if, like, the palm door can, but, like, I do not think it would necessarily be going into multiplexes near you. Probably not the same film written by Steve Martin. That is such an interesting wrinkle in this film's history, isn't it? We'll get to that in a second, yeah. Okay, okay.

[00:16:00] One of my favorite moments in this film, like, it just keeps springing back to mind, is when they're reading back Don Cheadle's character, Samir's history, and they mentioned that he went to go help the Mujahideen. Yeah, yeah. And I instantly went to Living Daylights, and then I instantly went to, like, Rocky III, or was it Rambo III, or whatever it was? Rambo III. That would have been a very different Rocky III. Very different. Adrian! I joined the Mujahideen! Yeah, Mr. T would not have been needed in that film.

[00:16:30] But, yes, it was the third Rambo film, for sure. I did not think I would be doing a Rambo, sorry, Rocky impression in this episode of him joining the Mujahideen, but there we go. It is so crazy that I'm wearing a Rambo III shirt while we record this. Oh, shit, you are! And that was not planned. It was at the top of the t-shirt pile. Just for the reference, because it doesn't specifically talk about the Mujahideen too much in Rambo III, but it's in the credits he thanks them, right? Well, he's teamed up with them through the film. Oh, is he? Okay, I didn't remember. Against the Russians.

[00:17:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I think it does... What a team! I know, it says something at the end. There's like a dedication to the proud people. To the proud fighters of the Mujahideen. Yeah, something like that, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Doesn't that necessarily mean in the film world that both Bond and Rambo fought with the Mujahideen? Correct. Now, that's a spin-off film I want to see. And it's interesting because Living Daylights is 1987, Rambo III is 1988.

[00:17:30] So it is definitely something kind of going on in terms of entertainment and what they're drawing from real life. And it's the same way we were talking about this movie falls in that post-9-11 period where, you know, pop culture is drawing from 9-11. It's that same kind of idea of the real world politics influencing entertainment. And, you know, we'll get into it, but this film does take some actual real twists. Like, it is going for something here. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah.

[00:17:59] Had you seen Traitor before? Is this a new watch for you? I had never seen it. I do remember when it came out. But I think part of the reason I didn't see it, and it was, like, reasonably well-reviewed. It wasn't, like, a movie, like, if it had been just bombarded with one stars, I'd be like, well, that's why I didn't go see it. That wasn't the case at all. I think Ebert gave it, like, three out of four or something like that. So it was a movie that, you know, was reasonably well-received.

[00:18:29] But I was not into, like, the Bourne films hugely at that point. I'd seen them all. I thought they were enjoyable, but I really didn't think about them. I did not anticipate the next entry in the franchise. It was just kind of like a thing I saw. And it was really, frankly, through this show, going back to the Bourne films, that really made me love them. And really appreciate them so, so much more than I did at the time.

[00:18:57] But all the other movies that were coming out around this time period, kind of these offshoots of Bourne movies, you know, the kind of we want to capture the energy of Jason Bourne films. And also, like, TV. You've got to remember 24 was flying. 24, yeah. Big, big at this time. It was a lot of things that, to me, looked like they were trying to evoke something I didn't care that much about. Mm-hmm. So it was like... I was a 24 fan, I will say. Sure. Right, yeah, I didn't watch 24.

[00:19:26] Like, I didn't watch a lot of this stuff at the time. And so, Traitor would have popped up. I would have acknowledged it as... That looks kind of... I'm sure they marketed... I didn't watch the trailer before the review here. But I'm sure if I go back to that trailer, they're trying to make it look something like a Bourne film. So I would have seen that and been like, eh, I'm not that interested. You know, it's a little bit like that movie The International with Clive Owen, which I did see at the time in 2009.

[00:19:54] But it also had that kind of Bourne energy they were trying to sell. And... Yeah. Eh. Eh. It was a thing. Yeah, it was definitely a trend at the time. What's your saying? It was a style at the time. Exactly. And it was, and it was just not a style that grabbed me. I mean, I'm sure a little bit like, you know, I really enjoyed a lot of the comic book films because I read a lot of comic books growing up. So it was fun to see all those characters translated.

[00:20:20] But if you were someone who maybe only saw Avengers films and thought, yeah, that was a fine enough time waster. And then you're seeing trailers for Ant-Man 2. Are you like, I gotta go see that? No, you're like, eh, you know, it's fine. I'll let it pass. That's how I felt with a lot of these kind of like Bourne riffs at the time. Well, they just felt like they were everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I guess you transpose it to 10 years later and it was just wall to wall superhero films. Exactly.

[00:20:50] Yeah. And you might care about the creme de la creme or be entertained by the creme de la creme of that particular trend. But the ones that are maybe a little bit lower down on the rungs, you're like, I can skip this. Especially when a lot of them weren't offering anything different. Yeah. Yeah. This one does. I would argue this one does. But yeah. I'm not coming out swinging against this one at all. Yeah. I just, but I did have that sense of it too. Like another way you'd look at it is in the 90s, science fiction on television was a big thing.

[00:21:20] And there are about 10 billion science fiction shows on television because of Red Alert Star Trek. Yeah. Yeah. And I would love, I wish I'd actually gone back to the trailer for this before we recorded. Oh yeah. That would have been good. Because I would be very curious what they were selling. And my guess is it probably looked quite generic. Hmm. Whereas I would say the finished film is definitely doing things that are much more interesting than a lot of other movies at that time. Or making creative decisions that other films wouldn't have made.

[00:21:48] Well, I feel like this is trying to push it somewhere. Hmm. You could have easily had Guy Pearce as this like Jack Bauer-esque trying to take down the terrorist. Sure. But like, frankly, when I saw it being marketed, I thought it was Don Cheadle's Bourne series. Like they were just trying to launch a Don Cheadle Bourne-esque kind of series. Like that's the way I looked at it. I don't even remember Guy Pearce being marketed in this movie. Like when I sat down to watch it last night, I didn't really remember he was a factor in that.

[00:22:15] And it's interesting because I started watching it and we'll get into our thoughts. But I knew Guy Pearce was in it, but I actually had no idea Jeff Daniels was in it until he sort of pops up midway. I'm not sure Jeff Daniels knows he's in this movie. Let's get into it. Okay. All right. So I, and by the way, I hadn't ever seen this or heard of this film apart from when we made the list. Sure. So that's all I really have to say about Traitor. Although, yeah, I was mildly aware of Don Cheadle at this point.

[00:22:43] Well, he'd been, oh, 2008. That's pre-MCU. But yes, I would have seen him in the Oceans films and Devil in a Blue Dress and several other things. I think the Oceans films were probably my entry route there. I'm trying to think if Hotel Rwanda had come out at that point because that got him a lot of, I think he was nominated for an Oscar for that movie. And I'm trying to remember if that falls before that movie or before Traitor. Yes, Hotel Rwanda was 2004. Right.

[00:23:11] So this is that period where it's like, okay, Don Cheadle has proven he can be a brilliant character actor. He's proven he can be the lead of a drama and get an Oscar nomination. He's proven he can just be like someone who really pops among a group of stars like in the Oceans films. And so it's like, where do we go next? Let's make this guy more of like kind of an action thriller lead. It makes sense. Definitely makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[00:23:40] But let's get into the backstory then. How did we get Traitor? So the question I think everyone is going to ask is, how is Steve Martin involved in this film? We've already like mildly teased it. And by the way, is that Steve Martin that you're all thinking of? Yes, it is. It is the wild and crazy guy. He did have a story credit on this film. It's his original idea. Now, how much of the original idea wound up in the finished film? I'm not 100% sure.

[00:24:07] But what happened was Steve Martin, Texas born comedy legend. We've seen him. We all know this man. You know, Only Murders in the Building is obviously a huge show. But you go back, this guy has just this legacy of big parts or even amazing small parts in like the Muppets films, for example. But Steve Martin, for those who don't know, they always think of him as stand-up comedian, actor.

[00:24:35] What maybe people don't realize is he's been a very prolific writer for a long, long, long, long time. He was writing comedy in 1968, starting on comedy TV series like the Summer Brothers Smothers show. Pat Paulson's Half a Comedy Hour. The Sonny and Cher Comedy Hour. Lots of those types of shows. He also wrote and starred in The Jerk in 1979. That's the movie that obviously makes him like a household name.

[00:25:05] Big hit. But if you go through and look at the man's work, he was writing a lot of his movies. He was writing The Man with Two Brains, Three Amigos, Roxanne, L.A. Story, Bowfinger. He was even co-writing the Pink Panther films he did. So he was always kind of also working behind the scenes on a lot of his biggest movies. And so the entire idea of him writing or having a writing credit on this movie isn't crazy. Because he was also writing books.

[00:25:34] He's written philosophy papers. He's been very prolific with the pen. I think it just feels tonally like a whiplash for Steve Martin. Even if you can understand and digest the idea that he's been a writer outside of his own projects, you don't automatically associate Steve Martin with terrorist bombing. You do not. You do not. And so here's how it actually happened. Okay. He was filming the movie Bringing Down the House in 2002. That's the movie he did with Queen Latifah. The through line is great here.

[00:26:04] This is great. Yeah. Okay. And they're like, this film is going to bomb. Bomb, you say? Interesting. Scribble, scribble, scribble. It didn't, though. That was a huge hit. Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry, Queen Latifah. We love you. Did you ever see Bringing Down the House? Probably. I did as well. I can't tell you anything about it. No. Yeah. Yeah. But it was very successful. But he was on the set and that movie was produced by David Hoberman and Todd Lieberman.

[00:26:34] And Steve Martin went up to them one day and asked if he could have a meeting in his trailer with them about a thriller idea he had. They thought it was a joke and never showed up. He turns up with, like, copious notes and a whiteboard. Like, and this. And then he's going to betray them. And this and this and this. Yeah. No one's there. Okay. Fine. Yeah. And so they didn't show up.

[00:27:01] And then, like, you know, the days after, he was like, why didn't you show up? They found him weeping in his trailer. Yeah. They were like, oh, you were serious? You actually had an idea that you wanted to pitch us. And so when they actually did hear the pitch, they actually were really excited about it and set it up with Disney immediately. And it was developed at Disney for a while. But God does not feel like even like Buena Vista. Uh-huh. Like Disney.

[00:27:29] So what happened was it got dropped during a regime change at Disney. But I looked at interviews with people who were, you know, whether it was the producers, the director, et cetera, even Don Cheadle. A lot of them had the kind of general belief it was never going to happen at Disney. It was like Disney was like, oh, yeah, we'll buy it, which happens all the time. Studios just buy up screenplays or ideas. Oh, Steve Martin wrote this? Yeah, sure. We'll put our name on it. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:27:57] We'll buy that because we don't want someone else to make it and make a lot of money or, you know, get a lot of acclaim. So let's just buy it ourselves. And you know what? It really doesn't fit the Disney mold. So we'll just quietly sit on this one. Yeah. Yeah. I cannot see a world where the House of Mouse is behind this. Yes. So what happened was, I mean, Steve Martin is not like continuing writing drafts of this movie, right?

[00:28:25] Like he has an original like story concept that he's selling that they're developing. Mm-hmm. So the producers continued developing the idea until Don Cheadle showed interest. And he really appreciated the concepts in the film. They're kind of tying back to the Patriot Act and Guantanamo, which were very big in the news at that time. And just the fears of terrorism. I mean, this was post 9-11 as we talked about. Sure.

[00:28:51] And he said later that he was really happy to get it away from Disney because they wanted to Disney it up if it had stayed there. So it's like we were saying earlier. Did they like arrest him at the park or something like that? I want to recover. What am I going to do? Gosh, Mickey, you got yourself in over your head. This is serious subject material here, folks.

[00:29:18] And Cam is wowing us, of course, with his ability to imitate the beloved characters. Yeah. But yeah, like the idea of like this material being filed down, I can see how that would happen. I can definitely see that. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. But then they found a director, Jeffrey Nakmanoff. And he was born in Virginia. He's a writer, director, producer.

[00:29:45] Started out with a 1994 short called The Big Gig and then did a 2001 indie comedy called Hollywood Palms. And he also, this is where he kind of gets his name into the big time, co-wrote the Roland Emmerich film The Day After Tomorrow. Oh, yeah. Which was a huge hit in 2004. Yeah. And so now he has a legit hit to his name. And so he's someone they'd be meeting with for projects. And so that's when he rolls into traitor.

[00:30:15] And what really impressed them with him was that he did a lot of research. They said like with the film's budget, he was like using it initially just to buy all these books to read in terms of terrorism and, you know, Muslim faith and like concepts like that that he was working into the film. So they were very impressed with that. Also, his father worked for the government back in the day and connected him with people and intelligence.

[00:30:45] So he was also finding real world information that he could apply to the screenplay. So when you see the finished film, it says story by, you know, by Jeffrey and also by Steve Martin. But screenplay is by Jeffrey Nakmanov. It's an interesting one because I did a tiny bit of research before we hit go on this. And I had read that originally Jeffrey wasn't the director. That's right. Yeah. Okay. Was there any other names that you found that were attached to it? Nope.

[00:31:14] Well, so to help fill out the Wikipedia page of Traitor, we have sat down with Jeffrey Nakmanov himself to talk about writing and directing the film. The man's still directing television now. He's just been working on the Daredevil TV show. It's a very busy man, but he's found some time to sit down with us and talk about Traitor. So we will be filling in those missing chapters of this film's history. Yeah. And he is someone who is more known for TV.

[00:31:42] So for those who aren't necessarily aware of Traitor or his other, he did a sci-fi film with Keanu Reeves called Replicas a few years later. But he's worked on shows like Homeland, Hostages, Lovecraft County. So he is someone who's very prolific in that world. So it's going to be really interesting to talk to him about this movie. Yes, there'll be a lot to discuss. And that'll be out this week, a couple of days' time on the Friday. So look out for that. But on with the story, Cam.

[00:32:09] So this was actually a lower budget film in terms of studio thrillers. The budget for this movie was $22 million. Domestically, it did $23.5, international $4.1 for a worldwide total of $27.6. So basically, it got across the line, but it was not a breakout hit, which kind of explains perhaps why there was no Traitor 2. No, though most people are dead by the end of this film. Spoilers.

[00:32:39] Well, the lead character is still around, so it would just follow him into his next mission, right? That's true. That's true. That's true. It also would explain perhaps why this is one of those ones that is talked about. Were you talking about like noughties spy movies? Yeah. I mean, we knew it existed because we had a list, but it isn't one. If I said, oh, an underrated noughties spy movie, even if you use the word underrated, you're still going to get like spy game and the American stuff like that.

[00:33:09] Right. Yeah. I mean, does it shock you? None. Let's not talk about quality of the movie because an audience going to this film opening weekend or whatever doesn't know how the movie is, right? No. So look at entirely from like the themes and what have you. Does this seem like a movie that would be a huge hit? No. Yeah. This is about $20 million more than an arthouse film in a sense. Like the story is quite provocative and it's definitely pushing some buttons.

[00:33:36] It is not popcorn munching fare, I would say. No. And I think when you are, you know, having a Muslim protagonist and delving into, you know, faith and responsibility and duty to a country and whatever, these are all like elements that are just going to, in general, not make it a mainstream across the board smash. Mm-hmm. So that wasn't a surprise to me and it doesn't sound like it was a surprise to a lot of the people involved who said, no, you know, they were happy to make the movie.

[00:34:06] They were excited to develop this material, but they really didn't go into it thinking this is the next Jason Bourne box office smash. No. And I don't think it ever really even portrays itself as a Jason Bourne film. No. I mean, you can see it in some of the cinematography and action direction, but yeah. Sure. Exactly. Yeah. Any more for us? Yeah. So this landed number 162 for the year between the Ed Harris film Appaloosa, the Western film,

[00:34:32] and Frost Nixon, the Ron Howard film about the interview between David Frost and Richard Nixon. I haven't seen any of those films. Do you have an opinion on them? Both good. Both quite good, actually. Frost Nixon got a lot of Oscar nominations that year. Unfairly, you know, it's not particularly well remembered. And I think it was actually a lot stronger than perhaps its box office success would indicate. And Appaloosa, really solid Western.

[00:35:01] The top three for the year. Number one, The Dark Knight. Not a shock. Number two, Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. Performing a lot better than Dial of Destiny did many years later. Mm-hmm. And actually looks a lot better when you go and watch it compared to Dial of Destiny. It does. And number three, Kung Fu Panda. Dreamworks film. We've definitely talked a lot about Dreamworks lately on Spy Hearts. Mm-hmm.

[00:35:27] And the only other note I had was that in 2010, an Indian film came out called Anwar, which was basically a total clone of this film, written and directed by Amal Ninrad. And it has, like, original writing credit by him on the film. But anyone, if you look up reviews of that movie, everyone just says it's a carbon copy remake of Traitor.

[00:35:55] Is that not some sort of, like, litigation you could do with that? Or maybe we just ask that to Jeffrey? Yeah. We'll ask him if he's familiar with that movie. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure he must have had a phone call about it or two. I wonder if it was a little bit of a case of if you take a movie and just, like, completely replicate The Dark Knight, you're going to get sued. But if you go after something like Traitor, which didn't, you know, perform hugely, and it's kind of a smaller movie, you can kind of squeak it across the line okay.

[00:36:24] So we can remake Condor Man is what you're saying? Yes, we can. That is confirmation, yes. It's happening, folks. But you know you and I could, like, remake Confidential Agent, and no one would notice. Oh, well, I don't think anyone's alive to care at this point. But I think you have to talk about a more recent film. Like, what more recent film could we get away with? Cats and Dogs 3. Passengers. Passengers? Oh, the sci-fi film. Yeah. Oh, I was trying to think of The Spy World.

[00:36:54] Yes, of course. That one's pretty forgotten, yeah. Yeah. Is it just me and you waking up in that space station, though? I'd prefer not to be there. Okay. Well, yeah. I think the people in the cinemas would feel the same way. Yes. I'm okay. I'm okay. I'll be in Cats and Dogs 3. All right. Well, let's talk about Traitor. You're all salivating. You want to hear our thoughts as per normal. Let's get to it. Cam's been talking for a while. Well, it's time for the big dog.

[00:37:24] Tying it back to Cats and Dogs. I can't do a Pluto impression. Sorry. Oh, you can't. Oh, that's a shame. That's a shame. You know, this is an interesting one. I don't think I particularly loved my time with this film. I'll just start off with saying that. I think the subject material was interesting. I think the story was very interesting. I think there's some strong performances in here, specifically Don Cheddle I'll focus on.

[00:37:51] I don't know if it was necessarily delivered in the best way. I think that's really where my hang-up is. I feel like it had everything going for it, but maybe just didn't score a touchdown or get a home run at the end. Whether I can lay the blame somewhere along our conversation, perhaps I will. But I watched it and it didn't frustrate me. Like, I was sort of watching it and enjoying the story. But I never found myself particularly pulled into it.

[00:38:19] I felt quite cold to the whole affair. And I think one of the biggest problems it has is... And I know it's meant to probably... The aim of it is to be like, who do you trust? Yeah. That is a thing we've heard many times. I think the tagline of the recruit was, who do you trust? Or you can't trust anyone? Or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's fine. But I never had a single person to root for in this entire film. I think maybe the last 20 minutes you're kind of rooting for Don Cheddle.

[00:38:49] Well, once you know what he's doing. But you don't know what he's doing for about an hour. But even then there's moments where he's not sure if he should... Like, he goes and talks to his former girlfriend and stuff. He's still betraying his system he's working for. Yeah. So he's still a traitor. And I just like... That kept me at arm's length, I think. And you don't even find out that about him until at the halfway marks. You have an hour of the film where basically you've got two antagonists.

[00:39:17] And that did leave me a little bit cold. But I do think ultimately there is an interesting nugget here. And I am not surprised that it was remade. Yeah. And it's funny because this movie... It is doing that thing where it's obscuring the motivations of the lead character for a long time. And that is partly to drive the investigative elements of it from Guy Pearce and Neil McDonough's point of view.

[00:39:45] These two FBI agents who are out working internationally. Basically off the books to a certain degree. Yeah. I don't know why they just go with the CIA. It was confusing. It actually suddenly involved having to have exposition to explain why they were there. And they didn't really explain it all that well. No. And I actually had to look that up. And it's like, yes, the FBI can work internationally. But there's all these legal loopholes. And that's why the movie is trying to do that.

[00:40:15] But I'm like, yeah, why not just the CIA? It's just cleaner. Yeah. Hey, that's a question for Jeffrey. It is. And it's the kind of thing, too. If this was based on a book, I'd go, oh, okay. Got it. Like, these characters. That's what they did. That's the source material. Fine. Yeah. And maybe, like, those characters continue through a book series and they're always with the FBI. And you go, okay. Okay. You know, Mulder and Scully. They're the FBI. And they have to be with the FBI.

[00:40:42] But, you know, maybe there's an X-Files book or story where they go international. And you're like, oh, okay. Okay. Well, clearly the FBI were needed in this circumstance. I understand why these characters are FBI. Here, I was scratching my head about it for quite a while. Yeah. I just felt like it was an unnecessary confusion to the audience.

[00:41:02] Because not that we all understand the FBI, but even as a Canadian and a Brit reviewing this film, we both know that the FBI are a federal bureau and an internal investigation unit. But, yeah, and I don't know how much of that is to also have that sense of who do you trust? Because they're set up as being very shady. And so it is the question of, well, hold on. Are they the bad guys? Is Don Cheadle the bad guy? Who's standing where? Right?

[00:41:31] Like, so there is definitely an element of that. But it does kind of keep you trying to figure things out for maybe longer than it should. I really think, like, I was fine with the FBI stuff once I kind of locked into my head. But the not having any sense as to what Don Cheadle is doing for the majority of the movie, I think that's really tough. Because they want you to connect to him. It's his face on the poster. Right? Like, he's your lead character in theory.

[00:42:01] I don't know if they were hoping to do sequels. We can ask about that in the interview. But if they were, then that's your lead. Like, that's the character we're going to be following. So you want to have a sense as to who he is. And I'm, like, thinking about it. But when you look at the Bourne films, and there is a huge Bourne influence in these movies, clearly. Jason Bourne has amnesia. He doesn't know where he came from. Yeah. Right?

[00:42:24] And so there is a similar thing here where you don't know where the character came from or where the character is going. There are those kind of connective points. But the difference is you understand in terms of his objectives what Jason Bourne wants moment to moment. He may not know where he came from, but you know where he wants to go. Whereas, like, in this case, I don't really know where my main character wants to go.

[00:42:51] He is clearly, you know, working with, you know, extremists to, you know, give bombs to people to set up, you know, like, suicide bombers. And it's, like, okay, fine. But it's not even, like, he's also conveying why he wants to do that. It's not like you're even getting, like, that much of an act as to him with his colleagues explaining why he feels strongly about this. Now, we do have a flashback right off the top that his father was killed in a car bombing.

[00:43:21] So there is, like, something there we can read into. But you want a little more from the main character, I felt like. And that's where I began to get frustrated because it is a lot of us trying to draw something out of him. And it's really not towards the back half of the movie where they finally say, okay, here's the playing field. Here's what he is. Here's what he wants to do. Yeah, and I don't mind a film obscuring some of the motivations of the lead.

[00:43:51] Sure. I mean, you look at, say, something like Notorious. You go all the way back to that. Like, you set up Cary Grant as a baddie. And you only later learn he's actually trying to look after, I'm forgetting the name of the lady, Ingrid Bergman. Yeah. She stood behind me, I should know. Back from the dead. Back from the dead. Hey, Ingrid, how's it going? Hi. And so I understand. Oh. Oh. Oh my God. My poster is talking to me. I must be hallucinating. But it feels like it goes on for quite a protracted time.

[00:44:20] And, like, there are other things to celebrate about this film we'll get into. But, like, ultimately, if I haven't got on board with my main character by an hour into the film, I've got questions. Yeah. So I'll say my thoughts. I didn't dislike this movie. I actually think there's a lot to recommend this movie. It was a movie when I finished. My girlfriend asked, you know, what did you think?

[00:44:46] Because she was getting ready for a dinner party and I had a window of time to watch the movie. And I said, I thought it was interesting. You know, using that word you were mentioning earlier. But, you know, it was like... Cam, I'm curious. There was... What do you think about it? Yes, I was curious. Yes. There was elements of it that I really enjoyed. And I really liked that it was taking this very, you know, attempt to add nuance to this analysis of the Muslim faith. Yeah. Of, like, you know...

[00:45:15] Because, especially at that time, not great in the papers, you know. No. The oppressor was not firing on all cylinders at that point. Yes. They didn't have the best PR going for them. And so I really actually enjoyed that part of it of having a character of the Muslim faith and showcasing, like, the positives versus, like, the extremists. And making it very clear the differences. You even have Guy Pearce saying, you know, because he's a man of, like, the Catholic faith. And says, well, you know what? We had the KKK.

[00:45:45] They were out there throwing burning crosses. And my grandfather was out putting those, you know, those fires out and helping rebuild the community. There's good and there's bad in every equation. And the way they did that, I think, is very... It's a positive thing. And I like that they were doing it with, like, a certain amount of sensitivity. Yeah. But where the movie, I think, comes into trouble is it's doing two things at the same time and kind of falling into no man's land a lot of the time.

[00:46:12] In terms of, like, a drama about an operative from the Muslim faith and how he balances faith and duty, that is a really compelling drama. And I think the movie, at times, is definitely interesting in that regard. The movie also wants to be a thriller. It wants you to be on the edge of your seat. It wants to have a ticking clock. It wants you to have a sense of momentum and propulsion. There are fistfights in this. There are shootouts.

[00:46:39] There's the kind of elements you're going to see in a thriller, especially of this time period. And having the two of them sandwiched together doesn't do either side any favors. The thriller stuff, you'll have a moment where you're like, okay, we've got a really cool foot chase. And then everything slows down again. And you don't have that Bourne type of propulsiveness where you are barreling through a story. You're kind of lurching in this movie. You're kind of hanging out, really, in places.

[00:47:10] You are really taking your time. Like, it's two hours and it is a leisurely two hours. It is not a, whoa, how did that just end? Wasn't it like 25 minutes? It's not. And I'll add to that. I had a similar experience with two other contrasting points of this film, which is the two contrasting leads. Because in many ways, this film is trying to not necessarily emulate, but it's taking notes from something like the Day of the Jackal. Where you've got an assassin and you've got someone trying to catch him.

[00:47:40] And the idea is that the net is closing in throughout the film. I never really felt like Guy Pearce had him in his sights until he really gave up where he was. That's true. And so I never really felt that sense of propulsion that one side was about to, that was always hot on the heels of the other. It just felt like one guy who was miles ahead of the other person. And so there was never really that driving tension that you could have when you get an unstoppable force and an immovable object coming together.

[00:48:09] Like, you're going to have sparks or you're expecting to have sparks. You don't get that here. There is no big catharsis at the end of the film. Although I will say there is a twist I did like at the end of the film that I want to come back to. It's brilliant. I have a lot of praise for that twist. Brilliant. Absolutely. Like, I, you know, had this period of like, okay, well, is this where the movie's going? Okay, well, this isn't the most energetic thing. Oh my God. Like, I never saw that coming. So, yeah.

[00:48:38] Like, there's really clever things throughout this movie. But, you know, I was saying like, you know, the thriller aspects often feel like they're kind of slowing down too much. And then also the dramatic elements. You'll have stuff where you go, this is really juicy stuff. But then you just get like the classic cliches. A lot of them coming from the Guy Pearce, Neil McDonough stuff. Yeah. And I love any scene where they like gather and someone says, he fits the profile.

[00:49:06] Like, this happens in so many movies and TV shows that are procedural. I kind of love it. But it's always like, he fits the profile. This is the classic profile. Just once I'd like to hear someone say, yeah, this doesn't fit the profile. Sorry, I don't know. We need a new profile. Pass. We're the wrong people for the job, Bart. Yeah. But it's that kind of like pulpy stuff throughout the movie as well. So that's why I say No Man's Land. It's kind of like wants to serve two masters and is kind of juggling between the two.

[00:49:36] And I don't know that people looking for a really thoughtful drama are going to walk out cheering. And I don't know that people looking for a, you know, Bourne-esque thriller are going to be cheering. No. No, I would agree. But let's talk about some of the good stuff that this film has. And I think number one with a bullet for me is Don Chaydel. So, I mean, maybe not his best performance of his career, but it's certainly a lot better than you're going to see him in the Marvel films. He's really fun in those movies. But, yeah.

[00:50:06] Sure. But, like, it is not, like, stretching him as an actor. Whereas this, I think, like, pushed him. No, I agree. Like, in terms of the Marvel films, he's more like you give him a couple really sharply written scenes and let him have fun. And that's primarily his part. And I know they've been developing a starring vehicle for him for many years through Marvel. And I don't know if it'll ever happen. But... I mean, after stuff like Ironheart went absolutely nowhere, I do not think that he will be having his own show. No, film. Or film.

[00:50:36] Yeah, it was a film they've been working on for a while. It was a TV show, then it became a film. And I just think right now they're probably like, let's slow this stuff down. But now it's a web series. Yeah. Yeah. I feel bad because I think there's more you could do with that character. But, yeah. It's like those are just kind of, like, punctuation in a larger tapestry. But here, he has that, like, gravitas. And he's an interesting actor to have in a movie like this because Don Cheadle is also, like, a dramatic powerhouse.

[00:51:03] And so, when you put him in a movie like this and you give him material where you have to feel kind of the inner turmoil of a character and really get that across. Like, he's a great actor. So, he can communicate that better than some. And here, he's actually really stepped it up, too, just physically. He's doing, like, the chase sequences. He's doing martial arts bits. He's doing shootouts. And he's very capable there as well. And, you know, he would enter the Marvel stuff two years later where he would also do that kind of stuff.

[00:51:32] But this is kind of like an early almost tryout just to show that he can do these kinds of action, you know, sequences. Yeah. I think he looks effortless in those moments. But I think some of the best moments are the quiet bits where he's just talking. He has a really good relationship with a character called Omar played by, I'm going to butcher this, I apologize, Saeed Tamour. Yeah, I would say that's probably the way I would pronounce it.

[00:51:59] Yeah, an actor who people may not initially recognize him, but you know him. He's been in lots of things. He was in Wonder Woman. He was in the first G.I. Joe film. He's been in lots of studio films, but also just a guy who's always working. He was recently in the John Woo remake of The Killer. So, just, yeah, long-working character actor. I honestly thought, in a lot of ways, that's the strength of the movie, is the relationship between the two of them.

[00:52:27] Because their aim to set off a, what is it, like 50 suicide bombs. 50 bombs and 50 buses. Yeah. It starts at 50, then cuts down to 30. But within the U.S., like basically a widespread terror attack in the U.S. Not exactly an aim that is the most commendable. No. But I think what's interesting is the way they look at this relationship between these two characters and show the humanity that they would have.

[00:52:54] While the aims are horrific, at the end of the day, these are human beings. And it's really interesting to kind of delve into the Omar character in particular. And just see, like, the conflict of duty versus faith. And the way that the two of them play off each other. Yeah, I think it's a really nice dynamic. I mean, it starts in Strife where they're sort of against one another. And then in prison they become good friends.

[00:53:21] And, you know, it's perhaps the most tender relationship in the entire film. And it's a really difficult one because no one in the audience is cheering on the guys who are trying to put together a suicide bomb conspiracy. Right? But in that moment at the end where they're facing off the two of them. Yeah. You do feel for Saeed. Like, there's a betrayal. Yeah. I mean, and you get the sense. It's almost like they're brothers at this point.

[00:53:49] And there is an intimacy between those two characters that's stronger than anyone else in the movie. Yeah. And it is heartbreaking to see the way he responds. One of the moments I think is, like, really effective too is the moment, and this is a Saeed moment, where Don Cheadle is going to meet with his handler Jeff Daniels. Yeah. And Jeff Daniels, who has a very, like, pretty small part in this film. It's almost blink and you'll miss it. Yeah. He's just like the handler.

[00:54:19] He shows up in a couple scenes. But he's meeting with Don Cheadle in a parking lot, like parking garage underground. And Don Cheadle, it doesn't work. He's supposed to be meeting with Saeed any moment. Saeed's character, Omar, any moment. Right? And Omar's car pulls in and he's like, quick, we got to stage a fight. And so he stages his fight with Jeff Daniels where the two of them are struggling. Gunshots are going off. He's purposely obviously not aiming in the right direction. So Jeff Daniels can run away.

[00:54:49] And then Omar jumps out of the car and just shoots down Jeff Daniels because, of course, he would. Like, you understand 100% just from the point of view of the character why he would do this and why this is something where he's protecting his friend. And you get that across the faces of both the actors. Both of them understand in that moment exactly why they did what they did. And it's very messy for the audience. But I love the way that scene was staged. Yeah.

[00:55:15] I think it's a smart way of putting a little bit of pressure on the Saeed character and seeing how he does with that. Because he loses his one actual connection to him being undercover as opposed to him being an actual terrorist. Yeah. But you also can see just through the way he reacts to the Omar character. He understands why Omar did that. That was a sign of Omar protecting him from danger. Yeah. And you're exactly right.

[00:55:45] You could see any of us. I mean, I'm not going to shoot someone. But, you know, if you're in a fight and someone's attacking you, I'm going to help you. Right. And not having all the information at their disposal either. No. No, you just walk in and see someone attacking you. I'm going to instantly try and help you. Exactly. That's just the way it goes. Yeah. Yeah. What's something you'd like to celebrate? The twist. Let's talk about it. It's so damn good. Well, let's set up the twist. Yes. I think we should do that. Because some of you haven't seen the film. And you won't watch it. That's absolutely fine.

[00:56:16] So, we mentioned the 50 bombs and 50 buses. Yeah. Just because of, like, machinations, the time constraints, that goes down to just a couple of people on buses. It's 30. Yeah. They go with 30. Is it still? Okay. So, it's 30 people. Yeah. And then you go to the day in the film where all these sleeper cells are being activated. And it's shot in different ways. Like, there's different types of cinematography being used. Some are, like, colder.

[00:56:45] Some are brighter. And it seems like some people are in the cold parts of the United States. Some people are in the hot parts. Yada, yada, yada. Getting to the climax of the film, they think that the bombs have all gone off around the United States. And then you flick to what's actually happening. And Don Shadle's character, Syed, has basically orchestrated all 30 of these people to be on the same bus. It's incredible. Because you have, like, you are focusing on a few of the sleeper cell people.

[00:57:13] You get these little, like, character moments of them. You know, one is a woman, like, at a university they go and make contact with. One's a father. Yeah. Yeah. And you see the way they're leaving to go do their jobs. Yeah. You know, he says basically goodbye to his kids. And it shows all these, like, supporting little character actors. And you focus on one of them who's, like, a young guy. I think it was the one who worked at, like, a coffee bar. Yeah. Yeah. And it's focusing on his face as he's aware, okay, now is the time.

[00:57:43] He's, like, hyping himself up. And he, like, you know, opens up his bombs in his laptop. And then, like, stands up and starts screaming. And suddenly all the other people on the bus are all the other faces you've seen as sleeper cell agents. Throughout the film leading up to it, like, you've visited them in their homes or their places of work. But, like, the fact that the camera pulls back to see the rest of the bus and you're like, oh. And they all start screaming. Everyone on this bus is a terrorist. They all start screaming, like, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:58:13] And, like, boom. There's just one innocent guy. The poor driver. The bus driver. The poor driver. Oh, my God. That guy. He gets 30 bombs going off in his face. Like, I hope they paid out good insurance to his family. Yeah. And, like, the way the movie generates tension in those sequences is really effective. There's one early, early in the movie where it's a guy in Spain pulling up in a vehicle at, like, a party. And the, like, the trigger isn't working in the car.

[00:58:42] And, like, the way they draw tension out of that is really effective. And they also do the classic Jaws shot. I don't know if you noticed that. The zoom thing or whatever. Yeah. Where the background starts falling away. Yeah. Yeah. And it's zooming in on the face. Yeah. As he's doing that. When he realizes that his bomb isn't going off, basically. Yeah. And he basically has to run away. Like, that sequence was effective. And that was kind of just, like, the warm-up. Because you go, okay. Right.

[00:59:10] And, you know, I think of a movie that came out a year later. The Hurt Locker. Which is about bomb defusal. Yeah. And the way that they took all those sequences of defusing bombs and made each of them really tense in their own way. This movie does a similar thing. It has that Hitchcockian element of, you know something's going to happen, but you don't exactly know how. And that applies to the big twist. Again, props to that. That is one of the best twists.

[00:59:40] We are not selling it very well. Like, we made it very academic when we spelled it out. You are. And I also, like, this twist is operating at a level that I think is higher than the rest of the film. Agreed. So, when it comes at you in the last 20 minutes, you're like, oh. Oh, okay. All right. Where's this been? Like, that twist is something you would see in the best example of this genre. Yeah. Yeah. It really is a moment that is up there.

[01:00:08] And I will come back to that at the end for a question, actually. But, yeah. In terms of likes, I completely agree with you. The big twist at the end is absolutely fantastic. And the moments of filmmaking throughout that I think are really tense. Like, the one I mentioned in Spain on the beach is really effective. There's a few throughout. Even the Don Cheadle, the bomb that he sets off at the embassy. Yeah.

[01:00:33] The American embassy, where you don't see a lot, but the way they have him walking away with the explosion going off in the background. Mm-hmm. And the way he plays that afterwards, where he finds out it was actually a setup where it was a clear area, but they were going to take bodies from a morgue to stage that there was casualties for the news. Yeah. And there was a few maintenance workers who actually were there by accident. Yeah.

[01:00:57] And the way that Don Cheadle plays that after, like, the lingering effects of that and the trauma of him trying to make peace with the fact he's trying to stop a really evil act in America. But at the same time, there's casualties along the way. And how does he balance those scales? Yeah. There are great moments. And I just want to take a little bit more love to that twist, because shout out to the color editor of this film and the editing team.

[01:01:24] Because, like, when you're seeing the point of view shots of those different terrorists who turn out to be on the same bus, they're graded differently. They're shot in different styles. Like, you are genuinely given the feeling that they are in different parts of the country, and you never even once suspect they're on the same bus. Never. It completely took me by surprise. Yeah. It just is really good stuff.

[01:01:49] The only thing I wanted to highlight was the story and trying to speak to something different than you were getting at the time, which is, you know, here comes the CIA to bring justice, truth, and the American way, and it's the best thing ever. Right. Like, I'm not saying terrorism is a good thing. I'm not coming down and condoning anyone's actions here. But what I'm saying is there are nuances to everyone's story. No one is black or white. We are all shades of gray.

[01:02:17] And it's also speaking to something that's obvious, but I feel like was often overshadowed at the time, which is that, like, you can have a lead character who's Muslim who is against this. And that's something that, of course, that's the case. Like, that's silly to have to point that out. That's most of the population. Exactly. But I do feel like kind of the hysteria of that time period made that very muddy. It's almost like this was... I mean, I can't give an example of a film later that has done this perhaps more successfully, and I mean successfully in a box office sense.

[01:02:47] But it does feel like this is a proto version of doing that. Like, it was doing it maybe too early. Like, you know, people always point to Timothy Dalton doing the serious Bond too early, and then Daniel Craig got to perfect it years later. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I will say there was another like I had, at least a moment that made me laugh, was when they referred to Halifax, Canada, as the ass end of Canada.

[01:03:14] And I thought, I'm sure the people of Halifax really appreciated that line. We interrupt this program to bring you a special report. Agents, where are you? Why do you hide? Follow that Patreon trail and make SpyHards your guide. That's right.

[01:03:35] From spy TV reviews covering the antics of George Smiley, Jack Bauer, and the slow horses to reviews of non-spy movies from your favorite spy actors. There's no more secrets over on our Patreon. But Cam, tell the listeners about this week's top secret broadcast. Not all superheroes wear capes, and not all superheroes have a good attitude. As evidenced in this week's film we'll be talking about over on the Patreon, Hancock, starring Will Smith.

[01:04:02] How does this box office hit, released in the mega superhero summer of 2008 opposite the Dark Knight and Iron Man, hold up? Will it fly or will it crash to Earth? Tune in and find out. So, tar-tune your dial to patreon.com slash spyhards and spice up your podcast feed. But before knick-knack runs out of Tabasco! Resume the spy jinx.

[01:04:30] Okay, dislikes, let's talk about it. And my big one is, I think the sort of Guy Pearce, Neil McDonough, well, not a big Neil McDonough fan anyway, but Guy Pearce and also Jeff Daniels' other sides of the stories were all quite underbaked. Well, they felt like they were from a very conventional pulpy thriller. Yeah. I liked that they had kind of the...

[01:04:57] The Guy Pearce nuance of, like, the Christianity ties and sort of questioning some of the history of Christianity was interesting. I liked that. And also that he was someone who studied Arabic history in terms of his... and religion in his university. And so it made a character who could be very one-note. Because I spent, honestly, a big chunk of this movie in the first section thinking, like, why did Guy Pearce do this? Like... Right.

[01:05:25] Guy Pearce, I know he does, you know, all types of movies. But I was like, what interested him on the page about this character? Because this seems like very by-the-numbers stuff. But when there was more of the revelation of his interest in the Muslim faith and Arabic cultures, I was like, oh, that's what did it. Like, that was what made him more interested. Because otherwise it is kind of that by-the-numbers. I'm the investigator. I'm with the FBI. You know, like, how much is there on the page for this?

[01:05:55] It's interesting to note you mentioned The Hurt Locker and Guy Pearce is doing The Hurt Locker later this year. Yeah. And he's in... I think he's... He has, like, one section, right? I think he's right off the top or something. I think so, but it's been a while since I've seen it. I believe he's the failed attempt to defuse a bomb. And he does one of my favorite films afterwards, The Road. Oh! That was a feel-good movie. Yeah, real love fest, that one.

[01:06:22] I remember that was, like, one of the most depressed experiences I had walking out of the theater. You're just like, well, life sucks. I don't know why I like these dystopian films, but I always seem to enjoy them. Mm-hmm. Maybe I just hate life. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe I won't land that on Guy Pearce. Maybe I'll land that more on Jeff Daniels. But the sort of organizational subplots of this did not feel as well done as the Don Shadle bits.

[01:06:52] And I feel like in another world, they would be given a bit more power to almost put the heat on a bit more. I never felt like they were anywhere near catching him. No, and they also weren't interesting enough characters. There's interesting elements to Guy Pearce, as I said, that I can understand what drew him to the role. But in terms of being characters, this isn't exactly like Clarice Starling here. No, or like the true detective with Willie House. Oh, with Matthew McConaughey. Yeah.

[01:07:22] Like, that's a really standout detectives there. And maybe that's not fair comparisons, because in the examples both of us gave, we picked the protagonists of the movies. So, or TV series. So that's not fair. But like, look at Michael Lonsdale in Day of the Jackal. I was going to say, like, Lonsdale is not the lead of Jackal. Yeah. Yeah. Or either side of the equation in, was it the fourth protocol? The one with Pierce Brosnan and Michael Caine. Yeah. The number was throwing me for a second. I was like, was it the seventh? The eighth? The ninth? Which protocol was it?

[01:07:51] But in the 28th protocol. But it felt like they gave both sides a lot of interesting material. Whereas, like, other than Guy Pearce mentioning more of his backstory, I don't know that there's that much really to dive into. And they both feel a lot of the time just kind of like stock characters. Especially Neil McDonough, an actor who, Scott and I have had experiences with Neil McDonough at Star Trek Cons. Don't get me started.

[01:08:20] He's an odd dude. We'll say that much. But in terms of, like, performances, I think he's actually someone who can bring a lot to, especially these types of roles. Like, yeah, it's a thankless role to do, this sort of thing. Yeah, but he's the type of actor who I think can really prop up those roles. Like, he has personality. He has a look that's very distinct. So, I enjoyed him being a partner for Guy Pearce.

[01:08:48] But I just wished that there was at least angles on the characters more nuanced than good cop, bad cop kind of stuff. I agree. Yeah. I felt like there was the odd, like, comments Neil McDonough's character would make that would be perhaps slightly racist or jingoistic. Or from that perspective, that edge that you would think that these suits in the CIA and FBI have. That's a stock character. But he never really adds any embellishment to it.

[01:09:15] Like, you think of, like, well, here's a film where it isn't the main character. Tommy Lee Jones and the Fugitive. Right. He is playing a thankless task of just playing a U.S. Marshal chasing down the lead character. In any other film, that would be the Black Hat. Right.

[01:09:34] Tommy Lee Jones imbues that character with so much depth, so much quirkiness, that you are at times hoping Tommy Lee Jones will get the Fugitive. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's also just something thematically interesting you could have delved more into, which is, like, this is that post-9-11 anxiety-ridden, like, period of, you know, like, terrorism being all over the news. Right? Right?

[01:10:03] And, you know, it would have been interesting to have more of a contrast in terms of the sensibilities of the Guy Pearce, Neil McDonough characters as, like, different points of view of what were existing, especially at that time period. Right? Yeah. Maybe Neil McDonough is more that, like, this is a threat and we need to take any means necessary to stop it.

[01:10:23] And then you have Guy Pearce being someone who's more sensitive to the larger picture, maybe seeing more nuances in the equations than the other side and having more of a combative, perhaps, relationship between the two or at least like a debate. Yeah. You would write it like, you would write it in a sense of Guy Pearce has a breakthrough because he's able to see outside of the stereotype. Right. Like, he isn't funneled into that vision that everyone else in the FBI is.

[01:10:53] That, oh, if they're Arabic, they must be a terrorist or something like that. Like, whatever shorthand they want to use in storytelling, that's the sort of thing you would do. And you would say, like, oh, no, because of his experience with religion and learning Arabic and having Arabic friends or whatever they wanted to set it up as, he's able to see the bigger picture. Yeah. That's how you would write that. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe then it's a longer movie.

[01:11:20] Maybe there's pressures to make it more of a thriller and just focus on the stuff that is more commercial, which makes sense. I understand from a business point of view. Save it for Jeffrey. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll ask about that for sure. Yeah. Yeah. What about you? Something you want to critique? I mean, like, I think the things we've really examined have been the larger critiques. You know, the pacing is definitely a bit of a problem. I think. Around the middle, certainly. Yes. Around the middle.

[01:11:50] I mean, we all have a bit too much around the middle these days. So I, you know, I understand. Right. I will point out one character I was like, come on. There's not a lot of female presence in this movie. Sure. But there is one character, the character of Chandra, who is, I guess, the ex-girlfriend of the Horn character, Don Cheadle's, you know, hero. And she's played by Archie Panjabi, who's pretty prolific.

[01:12:17] She's in, like, over 100 episodes of The Good Wife. She's in other, like, a lot of other films. But, like, this was a character who was introduced and is being interrogated by the FBI and plays a much larger role than I realized, given the introduction. But none of it clicks. Like, I felt zero chemistry with her and Don Cheadle in the scene where they're together.

[01:12:43] I'm like, we're still trying to figure out, are these two a former couple or did they work together or what is their relationship? Were they, like, pen pals or something? Did she work in a library and he went in and got a book? Is that how they know each other? She once made coffee for him when he was 12. 12? Why would you be drinking coffee at 12, Scott? It was a hot chocolate. This is why... I don't know. This is why I'm not a writer, folks.

[01:13:13] Okay. Did they accidentally communicate with each other in the early days of ICQ? You've got mail. Yeah. Did they rank each other on Hot or Not? Was she on his MySpace Top 8? Oh, right. It's all about the MySpace Top 8. I think you'd be on my Top 8, Cam. Sure. Right.

[01:13:39] So, the chemistry is not there, but it felt like there was a feeling of, well, we have to have a female role of some type. Well, there has to be some sort of foil. Yeah. And unfortunately, it's his loins. It is. And I've got to be honest. I was kind of laughing when he meets up with her in a park. And the idea is she's out jogging. And he's just on a bench. And he's like, hey, make it look like we're not talking.

[01:14:08] But he just keeps saying, just keep stretching. Just keep stretching. And this woman is in, like, yoga pants and, like, stretching. And I'm like, aha. Okay. Okay. How many hours of that day do you think she was stretching on that bench when they were shooting it? That poor girl would have been stretched to all hell by the end. She'd been limber. And I'm like, if the most memorable moment with the female character in the film is her stretching in yoga pants, I'm like, I don't know if that's the most nuanced character.

[01:14:36] Well, Cam is zooming in and enhancing on the wrong moment of this film, I think, by the sounds of it. But my critique would come from a different angle. It would be like you have, like, two different scenes of her being interrogated by the FBI. And she's like, he's not a terrorist. There's no way he'd do any of this stuff. I'm like, we've got evidence that he's done it. No way. He's not a terrorist. Blah, blah, blah. Comes back. No, he's definitely not a terrorist. I could never love him if he was a terrorist. Blah, blah, blah. And he goes, he turns up. And she goes, did you do it? And he goes, yeah. She goes, oh.

[01:15:07] There's no, like, massive outrage of, like, how could you do that? How could you kill people? Her reaction is just like, oh, okay. I like that at the end, when all was said and done, there's no reunion. Like, she's completely ignored and forgotten. She's still stretching in that park somewhere, I think. She didn't know if she could move or not. Still stretching. But her mind is now blown. She's like, oh my god. It's like days later and she's still like, wow. Wait. What? He was a terrorist?

[01:15:36] She has the reaction that Han Solo did when he found out Luke and Leia were siblings. And he's just, like, staring off into space like, wait, what? How? I think that was Harrison Ford's, like, whole direction in Return of the Jedi anyway. Like, he was barely there, brother. Well, it's not one of his most engaged performances, no. I just think, like, I just wonder if she stood in that park still stretching, worried that, like, she's going to get attacked or something. Because he said, like, just keep stretching. And he walked off.

[01:16:04] Like, maybe she's like, are they going to kill me if I don't stop stretching? So I'll just stay here? Like, well, she's waiting for the signal to leave. Or maybe they just left the actress in the park when she didn't stop stretching and she just stayed there. I just feel like there's, I don't know, you're inviting a certain amount of snickering when you just have a character keep saying to someone, keep stretching. Keep stretching. Just keep stretching. Like, it's... No, no, no, don't talk. No, hey, hey.

[01:16:34] Just keep stretching. Keep stretching. Whoa! Keep stretching. We've only paid you for so many lines. Hush up now. Your lead actor speaking. No, I think that's a fair thing to point out. Yeah. Well, let's go to any other final thoughts. I had one thought and one question. The thought was, there is a scene, the very final scene of this film is kind of like a coda. And it's clearly shot on a soundstage. There's green screen on both sides.

[01:17:02] It is not shot in New York where it is alleged to have been. And so I'm wondering if it's reshoots. And there's no way for us to prove it. I'll probably ask Jeffrey when we speak to him. But it did definitely feel kind of like maybe my Marvel background was influencing me a little bit. But I was waiting for Guy Pearce to be like, have you thought about joining the Avengers initiative? Handing him over like an Avengers badge. And he's got like a little call to action music.

[01:17:31] But like it would have been the FBI. I genuinely thought he was going to do the old recruitment speech. And he kind of does. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this movie, the production was very fast. I think they shot it in like 48 days or something like that in multiple locations. So it wouldn't surprise me if just because of time constraints and money, not big budget, as I said, that they maybe had to just green screen something in.

[01:17:56] There was a couple of nice moments walking around Waterloo Station and Southwark where I sometimes find myself working these days. It was just nice to see that bit of the world. You've been there too? Yep. Yep. But you could see like there was some CG bombs going off that looked a little wobbly. But again, it's like given the budget, whatever I can. I wasn't surprised. It doesn't diminish the film for me. It's just an interesting thing I noticed. No. I've got a question, but I'd like to end on it. So what do you have?

[01:18:25] I've got a few things. The sequence where there's the kid, the 17-year-old, they're training for the bomb fest. And he had told his cousin and tries to run away because now he's an unreliable go-to person. And they capture him and throw him off that railing. That was brutal. That sequence was really tense. I did find it a bit weird that like they were running in, no, it was nighttime, but like there were other people in the corridor, in the alleyways. And they just threw him over the side. Like that's their cover blow.

[01:18:55] Yeah. No, that's true. But I thought that sequence was very strong. Oh, it was. It was. It was like, it was, I think it was kind of the walls caving in a little bit on Don Cheadle. I do appreciate the attempt to do that. Something else smart in the movie. The strategy for communicating with the sleeper cell agents. It's the unsent messages in the emails. Yes. Funny, funny side note.

[01:19:20] Catherine Vinclair, Miss Moneypenny and I use an inbox for the events that we sometimes organize. And that is how we leave notes for each other is in the drafts. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Okay. Why? Yeah. It's just like, like I'll draft an email and she'll go in and leave some notes on it, how she thinks it might need to change or whatever things need to be added. And we go back and forth until we have a message and then we send it. Okay. I thought that was like a really interesting bit of like... I'm not taking it away from your point.

[01:19:50] It is interesting. But for me, it was kind of bizarre. Like I actually do this and it's actually, okay, this is an interesting way of doing it. But in terms of like a procedural element of the movie, I actually thought, oh, wow. Again, an interesting idea in this film. Like that's the thing. It's like we can have some criticisms of the movie. It has enough interesting ideas. I led with that. Yeah. Yeah. To justify its existence 100%. I will just say the CIA who clearly listened to this show, I would just recommend checking Steve Martin's draft emails.

[01:20:20] Just saying. Mm-hmm. Just saying. The sequence of Don Cheadle making bombs is really cool too, where they had like the wine bottle with the ring of fire around it. And you and I have seen some bomb building sequences in other movies. The one in the fourth protocol is pretty memorable. But that one's like more like sexy bomb building with Pierce Brosnan. Yeah. There's no sexiness in this film despite there being a love interest. Yeah. Yeah. Not much here. But I thought that sequence was really well shot and really effective.

[01:20:48] They made it look cinematic, which sometimes these sequences don't look so cinematic. And realistic, which is also useful. Yeah. Another note I had, the note of Waddy the prison bully was very memorable. Ah. Are you the kind of guy that's when you inevitably get taken to prison, are you going to do the whole like punch the biggest guy in the yard? Or are you going to be like... I think you have to. Hiding. Is that... Oh, you are going to do that. I think I have to.

[01:21:19] Okay. Cam is the new king of prison. They have to think I'm insane right out of the gate. They're trapped in there with you, Cam. I am... Exactly. I am not a big person, so I need to sell that I am Steve Buscemi and Conair. You are Rorschach. That's right. That's right. Yeah. You're not... I'm not in here with you. You're in here with me. I mean, I just like that idea of a bag being over your head. Sure. That sequence, though, reminded me of Batman Begins, which would have been just three years earlier.

[01:21:47] It had a little bit of the shaky cam kind of stuff, the quick editing, and the idea of the whole group of them piling on one guy. It definitely had a little bit of those vibes. Like, this movie is very 2000s, and that's not necessarily a criticism. Just that you can see the filmmaking trends in this movie that were going on. Yeah. Like, Casino Royale 67 is very 60s. That's not a criticism of the film. It just is. Yeah. And it's something you can see now. At the time, you didn't see as much.

[01:22:16] But, like, there's a lot of the gunmetal blue cinematography. A lot of the sepia tones kind of look for anything that's Middle Eastern. Very common in that time period. Uh-huh. So you do see those sorts of elements. Also, speed ramping from time to time. A couple of bits of that. Yep. Yeah. So it was the time, folks. It was the style. Yeah. At the time. Uh, any more?

[01:22:43] My last note was, and we've never discussed this on the show ever, but we should have, Scott. Mm-hmm. Which is, I finally honed in on one of the key parts about playing a secret agent. Go on. Walking with purpose. Is that because you walk so aimlessly? That's right. That's why I'll never sell, but, like, you know, of course we talk about Sean Connery moved like a panther. The panther. Right? Mm-hmm.

[01:23:09] But it's something I really noticed when I was watching Don Cheadle just walk down streets. Jason Bourne. Jason Bourne. Looks like a lemur. You have to. You have to walk with purpose to sell these movies. And it's something I'm going to look for going forward whenever we tackle, especially something that's, like, someone is sort of, like, super spy kind of agent or operative, to see how they walk. You can tell, by the way, he uses his walk. He's a woman's man. No time to talk.

[01:23:38] I don't know about the woman's man part, judging from the movie. Keep stretching. Well, yeah. Yeah. My last note was a question, and that is, we talked about the ending, we celebrate the ending. Can we name a couple of the best ending twists in spy movies? We've obviously, this is going to enter that pantheon now. The other one that I think comes into this discussion has to be No Way Out. Yeah. Well.

[01:24:07] That's a great, that's a great twist. I don't like that twist. I really don't. Sure. But a lot of people do. And it does come out of nowhere. Like, it is a genuine, like, oh, okay. It definitely comes out of nowhere. Yeah. I'm trying to think, though. I feel like we haven't tackled that many with big twists. Was there any big twists in the Hitchcock stuff? Oh, I've got one. The Ipcris file, with the revelation that he was in London the whole time and never Albania.

[01:24:37] Great choice. That was a good one. Great choice. I mean, that's obviously the bottom of the list, but great choice. Duking it out with No Way Out for the bottom of the list. Yeah. There's one you don't like and one I don't like. That's kind of balanced, I would say. The mechanic. Oh, the original mechanic, not the remake. Well, they do use the same thing in the remake as well, which is, like, he kills, his

[01:25:03] protege kills the mechanic, goes to take his car, and he's wired the car up because he knew that was going to happen, and the car explodes. True. True, but didn't Charles Bronson die in the original? Bronson dies in the original. Jason Statham is seen in a camera to roll out of the exploding car. That's right. Yeah. So it's more that, like, the original had the full twist where they both killed each other. Right. But you are led to believe that both are dead briefly until the film tells you that Jason Statham survived. Yeah. That one's not as good. Come on.

[01:25:32] We see that shot of him rolling away at the gas station. Get out of here. How much do you want to bet that was not Jason Statham, but his stunt double? I'm willing to bet 100% on that one. I'm not rolling on the floor. Get out of here. Jason Statham. Yeah. Okay. Well, so what have we got? We've got the mechanic. We've got Traitor. We've got No Way Out, and we have the Ipcris file. Is there... Can we have a top five? We'll have one more. Okay. Mission Impossible. The Jim Phelps.

[01:26:02] Not actually being dead, and the entire thing at the start was a setup. Oh, okay. I mean, that's not at the end of the film. No. It is polarizing, too. It's not at the end, but you're right. Yeah, it's funny because it's easy to find ones from earlier in the movie. I think of even the Wolf Blitzer sequence in... Is it Fallout? That sequence is great, too. But again, that's in the first 45 minutes of the movie. Yeah.

[01:26:31] I mean, Cam is going to fix this in post, so it will sound seamless. But me and Cam have been looking online for the last 10 minutes, trying to find some other examples. We can only think of those four. Now, I know if we'd listed all the Mission Impossible endings, a lot of them would have twists. Yeah. I mean, you know, the Jim Phelps one happens not too far to... I mean, it's like 30 minutes towards the end. Mission Impossible 3 doesn't have much of a twist ending. 4. No. 5 has a little bit of a twist where they, like...

[01:27:00] We don't know that their plan is to capture him in that glass box. Yeah, but it's not like a huge... It's not a big twist. It doesn't shock the audience. I mean, there's Final Reckoning. They thought that... The big twist is they thought an ending would be of Luther talking to him on the radio. They thought that was a good ending. Yeah. Yeah. What a twist. But what I'm going to do, I'm going to read out the four. So we've got Traitor, No Way Out, Ipcris File, and The Mechanic. Can you all at home think of a fifth one? Let us know.

[01:27:30] Mail at spyhards.com. Or if I post about it online this week about the twist endings, let us know if we've missed any on there as well. I'm sure there are. And maybe one day we'll do an episode about the best twists. Yeah. We tackled Psycho on the Patreon. I guess we got that one. No, I'm sure if we put our minds to it and spend a couple of hours researching, we find a few more. Spy movies. At a certain point, they start to gel together in your brain. So the recall is not what it used to be.

[01:27:58] There's got to be one of those spyhard specials that has a twist ending as well that we're forgetting. Probably. The first 50 episodes of this show we did, maybe 75, everything was 100% clear. You're like, I recall everything we've tackled along the way. Whereas after 200-something, you're like, wait, what was British Agent again? Central Intelligence? British Intelligence?

[01:28:27] I don't know. Yeah. Anyway, what I do know is it's time for... Not list. Not list. Not list. Not list. Not list. Not list. Not list. Not list. To pick a sign. Not list. Not list. The need to see official classics of the spyhard's canon is this film making a list so illustrious,

[01:28:51] so acclaimed, so accredited, so cool that we decided to steal an acronym for Mission Impossible. That's right. We did. Yes. Yes. and I mean there's some great films on there it's the list of films that if you were going to sit down and say what is a spy movie you go check these out and you'll know by the end the question is is Trayton making that this Cam? The twist at the end is that is for sure making the knock list the film around it

[01:29:19] no it's a movie that I enjoyed watching I was actually happy to catch up with it because were it not for this podcast there's a high chance I never would have tracked this movie down it's so far off in the rear view mirror at this point in time so I am glad I saw it but this is more of something I think for people that are die hard spy fans that want something maybe a little interesting check out Trayton but I don't think it's one that needs to go on the list

[01:29:48] like on the buffet of spy movies this is one of those dishes that a lot of people wouldn't dare to touch like Baba Ganoush or something like that they're like oh I don't know what that is I'm not going to stick my cucumber in there yeah but if you do wow you might enjoy that's right a little bit of Baba Ganoush but in terms of the knock list no it has a lot of interesting things going for it some good performances some interesting scenes and a great twist

[01:30:17] but that is not enough to make the knock list no no sorry Steve Martin sorry Steve Martin that's about as close as you're ever going to get I'll just put the arrow the arrow headband on and walk away there we go there we go but two no's as such Trayton is not making the knock list the dossier on the film is complete and filed as classified although we're not filing it away just yet make sure you stick around later this week as we sit down with the writer and director of this film Mr. Jeffrey Nakmanov

[01:30:46] we've got a lot of questions we've noted down during this conversation we will try our best to take them to him yes we will and we'll see how it comes out well there you go folks that was our review of Traitor I hope you enjoyed it and I hope you enjoyed sort of checking out Traitor with us this week but Cam I'm sure we have another mission for people next week yeah we've got another great one we are going to be taking a look at the 1977 thriller

[01:31:15] Black Sunday directed by John Frankenheimer and starring Robert Shaw yeah it's been a while since we've spoken about John Frankenheimer we're here to get back on that blimp yeah we tackled Ronan way back in the day it's been too long and so it's time to remedy that yeah we can sort of look at bookends of a career of spy movies a little bit there from Black Sunday to here but a very interesting film a lot to discuss

[01:31:42] and we've got a great guest joining us so continue the mission with us later next week on Tuesday as we take a look at Black Sunday I know a lot of you people listening love a good blimp love a good hovercraft it's very up your street blimps are a common occurrence in spy movies so it's appropriate it is it is it is I've always wanted to go in a blimp have you ever been in a blimp camp? no I haven't actually we need to get a blimp a spy hards blimp question for you what excites you more?

[01:32:11] being in a blimp or riding in a hovercraft? I've ridden in a hovercraft oh have you? so a blimp oh wow okay well look at you Mr. Braggy Braggy there used to be a lot more hovercrafts here in the UK in the 90s for getting across to little islands and stuff like that so yeah I've been in a hovercraft before very loud okay very loud but no I'd love to ride in a blimp if our budget if you all listening thousands of you listening

[01:32:40] want to go join the Patreon fund a blimp hashtag spy hard blimp make it happen folks let's get us don't write Goodyear at the Super Bowl spy hards at the Super Bowl I feel like we'd have the second coming of the Hindenburg yeah you just see our logo and it just set on fire that's one way of making an impact but yeah join us as we talk about Black Sunday we'll have a great time and we've certainly had a great time talking about Traitor if you've enjoyed it

[01:33:10] come and join us over on our Patreon I just mentioned it if you'd like to patronage the show share a few spare dollars with us you can at patreon.com slash spy hards there's a bunch of bonus episodes over there over 100 bonus episodes I should say including Spy TV which you're always asking for so yeah come and find us at patreon.com slash spy hards continue the journey with Traitor this week obviously we're going to sit down with Geoffrey Nachman or come and find us on social media at spyhards that's S-P-Y-H-A-R-D-S on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok

[01:33:39] wherever you get your social media but until next time Cam remember keep stretching keep stretching this podcast is part of Podomity the UK's podcast comedy network why not laugh at what else we've got visit podomity.com