The Third Midsommar Special with Nille Svensson (From The Archives)

[00:00:00] There's a film that has a stunt which goes particularly badly that takes place on the edge of a cliff in Sweden. I'm obviously talking about the Atta Stupa scene from Midsommar. My name is Johnny Knoxville and this is the Atta Stupa. Yeah, so I think Midsommar. I think Midsommar would be a good double bill with Unsane. Have you guys seen Midsommar?

[00:00:25] I'm of course talking about Midsommar. It is fantastic. It is glorious and you should go see it. It's a slow burning, brightly coloured horror movie. It's everything you want and more from it. Then I guess go for a little more laissez-faire in Midsommar. It's just a weird way of saying watch Midsommar because Midsommar's fantastic. There are animals. There's a bear. There's a weird mutant kid in a loft.

[00:00:50] So this is the two hours and 20 minute long masterpiece that is Ari Aster's Midsommar. Midsommar, of course. We love it. You love it. You love hearing about it. You love watching it. We love watching it. Ari Aster's Midsommar. Yeah, Midsommar. Cool. Yeah, that was a great film, wasn't it? Really good. Go see it. The one that really jumps out for me is Ari Aster's Midsommar. Nice little horror movie. Yep. Beginning, middle, end.

[00:01:15] Midsommar. Midsommar, the Ari Aster masterpiece that we have spoken about on many an occasion. I think it's a good Christmas movie. But it's also the year that Ari Aster released his pagan horror masterpiece, Midsommar. They're his sidekicks. The movie's Midsommar. And that is going to be... I think it's going to be Ari Aster's Midsommar. Nice.

[00:01:39] But there are no snakes, so you're okay. But there is a bear. But the bear is not on cocaine. It is high off the religious experience of being part of the Haga. I'm, of course, talking about the wonderful, brilliant, amazing, stupendous Midsommar. You know what film is it based on a TV show, Graham? Midsommar. It is, of course, Midsommar. You know the drill. It's great. It's Ari Aster.

[00:02:05] Well, yeah, because I think if you're scared of metallic spiders, the thing you will love is a blood eagle. So my second choice is Ari Aster's 2019 folk horror masterpiece, Midsommar. And that is Ari Aster's Midsommar. Well, first of all, I would say to them, well, sort yourself out, you twat. And then I would say, well, fine, go watch Midsommar.

[00:02:33] And then people slowly get voted out until you have one winner remaining at the end. And that is Ari Aster's Midsommar. You guys are making a podcast. No one asked for this.

[00:03:00] So welcome to the podcast nobody asked for's Midsommar special with me, Ian Harries, and usually Graham Jones. But we're doing things a little bit differently this year for reasons which will become very, very obvious. So I've also just realized that when I'm recording by myself, I have a tendency to go really toast of London with it.

[00:03:24] So I'm going to try to not do that this time or to keep stopping recording when I think I've made a mistake because I don't want to live edit this podcast. That'll be really, really annoying. I don't know how people do this by themselves. I mean, I know I've done an episode by myself before. And, you know, come on, guys, we know me. I'm going to end up doing another one by myself at some point because I love the sound of my own voice.

[00:03:47] But well, I love the sound of my own voice and just the sheer ego boost of Graham not being there to point out to me all of the obvious stupid mistakes I've made. Anyway, I digress. I've gone off on a tangent by myself. Fuck me. Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Petros Patsilovus, friend of the podcast and host of Caged In Coppola Connections. Jingle.

[00:04:14] Did somebody say Caged In Coppola Connections with Petros? Francis, Roman, Sophia, Nicolas Cage, August, Jason Swartzen, Gia, Adrian from Rocky. I just love me some coppola's name. And now also host of Getting Defoe You. We don't have a jingle for that yet. I'm assuming we will.

[00:04:41] Or we'll just like change it to, you know what? Maybe we just need a Petros jingle. Maybe I'll make that. We'll see. Who knows? So, Petros. His name. His name is Petros. And Petros. Petros makes podcasts.

[00:05:12] Predominantly about Nicolas Cage or Willem Dafoe. But I think he's also guessed on some other things. And, you know, he's probably got some other very interesting ideas that aren't necessarily actor-based. But he's the ship. Thank you. Thank you very much. We're here all week. Being the king of independent podcasts, managed to get us the details of the art director for Midsommar, Nila Svensson. Because Petros is just the man.

[00:05:41] Petros also set us up last year with Pavel Pogacelsky. So, you know, I'm just somewhere. I'm assuming he's got one of those old school. Like, the only thing I can think of that has it in is the Muppets. Like that. What? Like 80s businessmen used to have where it's like a dress cards on like a twirly circle thing. I'm clearly not in the... I'm not going to lie. I'm recording this podcast while I'm on Codeine. So apologies for whatever happens here.

[00:06:10] If you want to know why I'm on Codeine, just send us a message to our Instagram at the podcast nobody asked for. So Petros set us up with Nila Svensson. And Graham and I decided, right, so similar to last year, because we've managed to get an interview, what we'll do is we'll then theme the episode around that interview. So last year we had Pavel Pogacelsky, who is the cinematographer.

[00:06:35] So we then did a top three list based on films we would double bill with Midsommar. The idea being that we'd be talking a lot about the look and feel of the movie, which is then something that we would have discussed in the interview. With Nila, the idea was that we would have a top three list based on, you know, favorite piece of art or something like that, or uses of art in Midsommar. Have the interview with Nila and it'd be very similar to last year.

[00:07:02] Things changed, however, because Nila started our interview with what is my, one of my favorite phrases. So we booked him in for, or we'd asked for 30 minutes with him. And just before we started recording, he said, I can go on for as long as you guys need me to. So basically that means we have a 90 minute interview with Nila Svensson and it is incredible. It is incredible.

[00:07:31] It is eyeopening and it is easily one of the best things that the podcast Nobody Asked For has been included in. So we're going to take a bit of a sharp turn away from our usual format. And this episode is predominantly going to be made up with the interview that we recorded about a month ago now, I think. Back when I had two working knees, which seems so long ago. The detectives among you there, that's the reason I'm on Cody.

[00:08:01] So the art in Midsommar is fascinating. There is a meticulous attention to visual detail, symbolism, and the way that it is integrated in not just kind of visual art, but various art forms throughout the whole cinematic experience that is Midsommar. Obviously with a film like Midsommar, which is so visually driven, not only is the cinematography a huge part and a huge influence of what's going on.

[00:08:31] That's a bit of a hint to listen to last year's episode. But what is in the frame itself really helps create the world that this film is inhabiting. So as we've talked about ad nauseum, Midsommar is filmed entirely in sun-drenched Swedish landscapes and countryside. So you have to populate this with something which makes this world seem believable.

[00:08:59] Because if there's no shadow to hide anything in, there's no shortcuts or anything like that. And as Nila will mention in his interview, Ari Aster is a director who likes to change things on the fly. So it also means that you can't just decorate one side of a wall you know will be in shop. A lot of these houses were... So the dormitory, for example, is basically decorated throughout the whole thing.

[00:09:25] And the people behind the artwork in Midsommar, for me, really comes down to kind of three main people. So you had Henrik Svensson, who was the production designer. So he was responsible for the production design in Midsommar. He collaborated with Ari Aster to kind of really create the unique aesthetic of the commune and its rituals and just kind of really fill out the world.

[00:09:51] And then it was his team, which created the set designs, murals, tapestries, and all of the other kind of visual elements that adorned the commune. And I think really kind of added depth to the story and what was going on. Because for me, if it didn't feel like a believable world, especially in two and a half hours of bright sunlight, you are going to immediately be taken out of everything. And I think it's that depth which really allows you to...

[00:10:21] Obviously, you would connect with these characters anyway. But it's that depth, I think, that makes everything seem that weird mix of real but surreal, which a lot of horror films, and especially Ari Aster, seems to play in. Neela Svensson, designer and art director, was part of this team. And he was responsible for creating a lot of the really complex material and interpreting kind of this rich mythology and creating it for the film.

[00:10:50] So he talks about this at length in the interview, so I won't kind of go through that anymore. But one thing that I don't think we mention is some of the things that Neela has been involved doing are insane. And while we were actually interviewing him, we obviously did our research, but something passed both Graham and I by. Because halfway through the interview, I got a WhatsApp message from Graham saying,

[00:11:18] did you know he was involved in creating the channel identity for MTV UK? So it's just, his work is incredible. I would strongly recommend checking out his website where he's got a lot of his material on there. Neela then also worked with Ragnar Pearson. So we did reach out to Ragnar to be a part of this podcast, but unfortunately he wasn't able to. But we would love to have him on at some point.

[00:11:45] Ragnar did a lot of, drew, actually drew a lot of the art. So the famous Midsummer mural, which we've talked about before, is literally hanging on my wall behind me. Well, a print of it is hanging on the wall behind me anyway. Anyway, so he had, he produced this. He produced a lot of the really weird fucking pictures that are kind of adorning the walls of the dormitory.

[00:12:13] And he had his start in, well that's not fair actually. I'm not sure if he had his start, but he has also designed a lot of punk and heavy metal music album covers. And some of them are insane and I have so much time for them. He did one called Total Destruction of the Present Moment by Pigeyes. And it is fucking insane. So Ragnar was trying to mimic a lot of kind of the old Swedish style from Halsinger where the movie takes place.

[00:12:42] So a lot of the actual kind of artwork is heavily influenced by the 1800s and early 1900s drawings from the area. But then obviously with a lot more blood and gore and the mythology of the movie itself. So for me, you wouldn't, obviously Ari knew the feel of what he wanted to have with Midsummer.

[00:13:06] He obviously had a big hand in helping to, well for example, so for the drawings with Ragnar. I know Ari said there was meant to be a lot of blood and sex on them. So he clearly was involved in the art design and the art production. But I think without these three guys, I don't think this movie would be what it is. Obviously Graham and I adore this film.

[00:13:31] But part of, I think, what makes it so visceral is how deep and detailed the world is. So everything does feel real. And if it's drawing you into the film, it then allows you to fully feel what Florence Pugh's character is going through. What everyone else is kind of feeling.

[00:13:53] And without having, I think we've all had it, again, especially with horror films, where something will happen that immediately takes you out of the film. And therefore, you aren't really kind of feeling everything. You're always a little bit detached. The one that always springs to mind for me, which is a weird fucking film to mention. I talk really quickly when Graham's not here. Anyway, really weird film to bring up when we're talking about Midsummer.

[00:14:18] But the one that I always mention, which highlights kind of the, or highlights this perfectly, is there was a film called Mama, which was two thirds of a brilliant movie. But it was about, like, I think these twins, maybe? But these girls that got found in a wood and they kept talking about how Mama was looking after them.

[00:14:43] And there was always a question of whether it was a supernatural thing, whether it was a psychology thing. And it was all a bit strange. And it was really, really interestingly done until they showed the actual creature. And the creature was so shit that it immediately drew you out of the film and you no longer cared about it. And Midsummer doesn't do that. Midsummer creates such a detailed and interesting world that you are just completely drawn in.

[00:15:13] Much to your mental distress. But you wouldn't have this without Henrik Nehler and Ragnar. I think the art is truly a conduit for the storytelling. It provides glimpses into both the characters' worlds for shadowing. There was also a really interesting point raised. This is the issue with doing so much research on Midsummer over three years.

[00:15:42] I was about to say something that, now I think about it, I might have learnt from this interview. But we say it foreshadows their fate. But what I do like is the idea that all of this has happened so many times before that it's not actually kind of a prophecy or anything. It's just all shit that has already happened in other kind of endless cycles of what the Horga are doing.

[00:16:09] The murals, the tapestries, so much of the plot and the history of the Horga is told not through the characters themselves, but just the worlds that they're inhabiting. And I think lesser art directors or lesser designers would have, I don't want to say phoned it in, but not necessarily given this the attention it deserves. It is, I mean, we could talk about the art for a while, but I know you're all wondering,

[00:16:34] hey, why is Ian just talking to himself in a slightly too hot bedroom when we could be listening to an actual expert on the subject? So I will hand over to past Ian and past Graham's interview with the wonderful Neela Svensson in a moment. But before I do that, and even though Graham isn't here, I still think it is time for a movie recommendation nobody asked for.

[00:17:02] I assume you guys are here for a movie recommendation. No, thank you. Nah, I'm fine. Nah, I'm fine. I'm alright actually, thanks a lot. Nah, I'm fine. It's alright. I'm fine. Yeah, that's alright. Fuck off. So, this is a tough one, obviously. You know what, I'm not even going to pretend, I'm not going to do a bit here. Obviously, you guys are going to go and watch Midsommar. Obviously.

[00:17:30] It would be stupid for you not to. Like, that is why you're here. If you're listening to the third of our Midsommar specials, you know what you're in store for. You're clearly a fan of Midsommar. You've watched it. This is coming out two days before Midsommar, so you're probably going to be watching Midsommar soon anyway, right? Right? So, it's Midsommar. The movie recommendation is Midsommar. And if you've already watched Midsommar this year and you aren't sure what else to watch,

[00:18:00] and you are listening to this on release date, so on the 22nd of June, and you're wondering what else to watch, well, the Prince Charles Cinema on the 24th, so on actual Midsommar, is playing a little film called Midsommar, The Director's Cut. So, I would also recommend you watch that, because not only does it show you even more of the world that we're talking about, but it is one of those...

[00:18:26] Again, it's one of those Director's Cuts where I understand the cuts that they made, but seeing a version of it with them in just helps, I think, to layer the complexity and the detail and everything like that. So, it is still not even just for the completionist. If you were a fan of Midsommar, I would encourage you to watch the Director's Cut as well. And speaking of movie recommendations nobody asked for, I know everybody is wondering,

[00:18:55] hey, just how many times have you guys recommended Midsommar? So, so far in the last calendar year, we have recommended Midsommar 24 times on this podcast. In the life of this podcast, we are up to 176. And I think 176 comes from... Let's try and think this through, shall we? One, two, three, four, five, six... Seven different people. Seven different people have recommended you watch Midsommar on this podcast,

[00:19:24] and at least two of them were not forced to do so, to keep with the format of our show. But what can we say? We fucking love it. So, without further ado, or without further beating the bush, or gallivanting around the shrubs... I don't know. We'll go to our interview with Neela. So, we had a couple of technical issues, which do affect the sound quality a little bit, but it is still more than listenable.

[00:19:54] So, I hope you guys enjoy it. So, welcome to the podcast of the R Sport, Neela Svensson. How are you doing? I'm fine, thank you. It's... Spring is in the air. Here in Stockholm, for like, maybe for one week passing. And so, we're getting like the first reminiscence of summer coming up, and you know what happens

[00:20:25] when summer is, you know, closing in. So, it's... I think it's probably the best time of the year here, because it's like the warmth and the sun is still, like, new to you, and you're not spoiled, you know? Is it as dramatic as it is? I know we'll get on to talking about it with summer in a lot of detail, but one thing that really strikes me from the movie,

[00:20:53] like, is that how dramatic it is with the... How bright everything is throughout summer and how long the days are? I mean, is it actually as... Like, is that an accurate representation? Yeah. But I think it's... I mean, the effect is more dramatic around this time of year, because suddenly, like, I go out of bed, like, or I wake up maybe at seven o'clock, like most mornings, from the week when it's sort of dark, because when it switches,

[00:21:21] it switches sort of quite fast. Yeah. The week between you wake up and it's dark outside, and the week, like, two, three weeks after, and it's actually sunny, it's like, bam, your whole sort of outlook on life changes. And the same thing with the evenings, like, if it's... Like, in the winter, it's dark, like, 3, 3.15, maybe. And then when it passes, when it's not dark,

[00:21:50] when you sort of head home, or when it's not dark, when you, you know, you take the garbage out, or whatever you do, like in a regular... The same time every day, it sort of really changes your mood. And then it sort of just progresses. So, you know, June or mid-June or around mid-summer, which is, you know, like the last week or the second last week of June, it's not so much a difference anymore, you know, because you've sort of passed this kind of

[00:22:20] it's dark when you go to bed experience, or it's light when you go to bed. So this time of the year is really when you sort of wake up. And we have this festivity when you have bonfires, and stuff, like on the last of April. Okay. It's more like you celebrate that the spring is coming. So maybe that's even more of a thing, really, I think,

[00:22:49] more transition-wise. I mean, like, so we're London-based and we had spring last week. I think spring is now done. And now it's just... Now it's just a cold summer. So it's... All right. We have the sun comes up early, the sun goes away late, but it's just cold all day. It's great. It feels more Swedish than what you just described. Yeah. Maybe. But yeah, it works for us. I think, you know, everybody who lives, like,

[00:23:21] any given, sort of, any fair distance from the equator, I mean, the, like, the different seasons really sort of mean something and sort of embedded in cultural behavior and everything, I guess. so I've often wondered how people, you know, like a lot of people I know in the film, like, the film industry is very much, you know, based around Los Angeles, which has this kind of perpetual

[00:23:52] sort of state. And I often wonder how that sort of affects your outlook on more things than just the weather. You know, like, there's something nice with, even if you don't change anything with yourself or even try to avoid changing everything, like, when you live in a climate like this, you have, like, different clothes over the year and you, you, and you, you shift your,

[00:24:22] your hobbies, you go skiing or you, you sail or whatever. It's like, you, you are constantly living in this idea that, that change is sort of inevitable even if it's cyclical, what do you say? That's right. So it's like, and, and, and so people who are living like this, when you go out and you try to create something or you, you know, you, you just ponder on your life or create art or express yourself or anything,

[00:24:51] you are doing that with a kind of, this base notion of flux, you know, I don't even know if anybody's reading anything about this, but it would be interesting to see how people on the equator, how they sort of, if they have some kind of, of, you know, in general, some kind of other outlook on their sort of position. It's also, then, that then ties into, this has got a lot more philosophical than I thought it would.

[00:25:22] It's, it's also, then that also is very interesting to tie into, if we're looking kind of historically into like the creation of like myths and things like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like you said, you can understand why someone 2000 years ago seeing the massive change in the world and not understanding where it comes from, like how that would then lead to all of these, you know, stories of gods and stories of, you know, there's chariots of fire pulling suns across the sky and things like that. And it's, it'll be interesting

[00:25:52] to, yeah, compare those to the ones which would come out around, yeah, come out around the equator where you don't necessarily have, it is just hot. That is, that is the state of things and that is the way things are. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, try to, to, to, to, you know, stick to the subject as, as you know, as well as I do, I think, you know, when, when Christianity, you know, moved, further north from the Mediterranean and, and,

[00:26:21] and try to sort of missionary its way up to the northern parts of Europe, they actually had to sort of shift the dates of, of the birth of Christ and everything. So, because the, and I think in, in England or, or like early modern England, Christmas was actually abolished for a time. They tried to, yeah, because, I mean, so, they tried to sort of cover existing

[00:26:51] rituals and existing sort of important parts of the year and seasons with sort of new, they couldn't really change the timing of things. It's very, sort of like, take all of the pagan dates and the pagan rituals and slap Jesus on them. What's interesting with Midsommar is that, that there is no sort of Christian equivalent because both Easter and, and Christmas is actually sort of pagan origin.

[00:27:21] Yeah. They sort of just cover, cover that up with, with the, the life of Jesus Christ. But Midsommar is still sort of something that is a bit, a bit sort of untouched. in that way. That's, maybe, that's why it sort of opens itself up to this kind of sort of speculation. Yeah. I'm really, I, I think we, we jumped ahead quicker than I thought we were going to, but I think it seems as good a time as any to kind of talk about

[00:27:51] everything that you've kind of talked about there with regards to like the weather impacts and the rituals and the kind of seasonality of things. I mean, how did, how did you take that into account when you kind of got this brief around the movie and the artwork that needs to be included in all of the mythology and stuff around it? I mean, did that have a massive impact on kind of the direction you took? You mean like my own experience with celebrating Midsommar? Yeah,

[00:28:20] I guess that and then also, I guess the sort of bringing into it like the things around the seasonality. I know a lot of the kind of rituals that we see in the movie itself are all around kind of like rebirth. There's lots of stuff around like the, there's lots of floral elements and things like that signifying kind of new life and everything. But I guess, yeah, I guess your own kind of take on Midsommar and how that came into it. And then,

[00:28:50] yeah, I think kind of everything we've spoken about in terms of like all of the way that the seasonality and the kind of has had an impact on the mythology. Did you really draw from that? Because everything is sort of really for a movie that's kind of quite horrific in places. Everything's so like kind of bright and kind of cheerful in terms of a color palette. Yeah, it's, I think that, I mean, as a movie, I think that's,

[00:29:21] I remember somebody said that it's like the first horror movie that's only shot in daylight, which is sort of, you know, that's what you get, I guess, if you're in Sweden in the summertime. I think, you know, like another thing with rituals and sort of traditions that I've learned, you know, over the years is that when you really dig into it, a lot of rituals and traditions aren't

[00:29:50] really that old as, you know, things that people do tend to last for, you know, maybe two, three generations and then very often almost all sort of culture behavior is more or less sort of changed all over. so if I go on this podcast and say that in Sweden we celebrate, you know, midsummer, this and that way, I don't even know if people like 500 years actually did this, you know,

[00:30:20] or to what extent, which is the same with how we celebrate sort of even Easter and Christmas, which is supposed to be traditions that go back to a 2,000 year old story, but it's what you do or whatever you sort of put into it, it changes a lot, you know, like the Christmas tree is like not even 200 years old, something else, whatever, and then like all these different, and the pagan traditions that

[00:30:50] were before that died out and maybe they sort of were sort of succeeding after some other kinds, so meeting the script, I think that the kind of Midsummer celebration that is sort of depicted in the script, you know, subsequently in the movie, I treated it as being a total fantasy, like, you know,

[00:31:20] something just fictional from the beginning, because I've never ever come close to anything which, you know, I'm grateful for, but even if there's a lot of stuff that's sort of totally made up, and, you know, it's there for effect, and other things that are

[00:31:49] inspired from ideas that maybe were fictional even where they originate from, if you know what I mean. And that is, that's how it works, it's, that's the fun of it, but I think also, as I said, because the Midsummer tradition is something that's sort of not as closely connected to something else,

[00:32:19] it lends itself to, you know, exploration and fantasizing, and it's also a bit safe, because we're not sort of, you're not stepping on anyone's toes, and in the movie, like, the background story is, you know, with this, the horror guest, the community is actually, you know, it's supposed to be like

[00:32:47] Swedish folklore, but it has sort of departed, and never actually converted to Christianity, but they've sort of kept on a pagan culture, but it sort of evolved it, you know, so there's like a, like a, sort of a fork, so, so for me, it was, the fun thing was thinking about how

[00:33:17] would, you know, traditional, but it's very much based around the folk traditions of Helsingland and Dalarna, which, you know, in some ways are considered to be like the, this kind of, what do you say, like the concentrated Swedish summer, so to speak, like the solar plexus of Swedish summer culture,

[00:33:48] Swedish folk, tradition, so what we did with the set designer Henrik and Ragnar, who did the drawings, we, we sort of just vacuumed for those references and, and played around with it, and, and I've always loved that imagery and that tradition, both sort of the, the art and the, like the graphic elements and everything,

[00:34:18] and it's very interesting because it's, from the beginning, that tradition or like that aesthetics is very kind of, it's a mashup because very often depicts biblical themes and sort of Christian content, but nobody in that part of Sweden, they didn't know anything about how things were supposed to look like in the Middle East, so everything is sort of

[00:34:47] changed to things that they knew about, so like everybody in the Bible is riding like a horse and having these sort of traditional Swedish clothes on and instead of temples it's like farmhouses but they're just made bigger and more beautiful which is, you know what I'm saying, it's like a kind of post-modern kind of mashup of Swedish culture and

[00:35:16] Christian sort of, like an overlay which is in itself, so it's very easy to sort of depict how it could have sort of taken another route, if you know what I mean, so we kept kind of the aesthetics but we said that if this was filtered through other ideas or other sort of religions or sort of cults but it would still sort of be the same

[00:35:47] brushes and colors and, you know, the same materials, how would it look like? So this is just a kind of counter factual history, exercise. Because I know, so we've had Pavel Pogacelski on last year to talk about through how it was actually shot and things like that. So obviously when Ari wrote the script, there was kind of a set at least. So I think very early on, like you kind of said yourself, they had the idea of it

[00:36:17] being shot, it would be entirely in the daylight and things like that. But in terms of the actual kind of like, you know, again, art and art design, how much was brought to you and how much of it was like, were you just told here's the script of the story, figure out what this would look like? Or did he have an idea of what they kind of wanted from you guys or like a feel of the aesthetic? Yeah. I mean, to some parts,

[00:36:47] because the two guys who came up with the background story and the set designer, Henrik Svensson, they have been sort of dragging this project around for ages, you know, before it got sort of funding. So Henrik had this kind of a lookbook or like a Bible of pretty much every, more or less every scene in

[00:37:17] the movie, you know, what would be needed, but not sort of in detail as such. But it was pretty well developed even before I think the RA got sort of the, or came up with the actual sort of script, which lies on top of this sort of origin story, I guess. But I think where we started was that I think about my,

[00:37:46] and because we knew that it was going to be placed in Helsingland and everybody involved knew that there is this rich and rather kind of unique aesthetics in that part of Sweden. I think that like the first time we discussed it, when Henrik asked me if I wanted to be involved, I think we discussed the wall paintings of traditional houses in

[00:38:16] Helsingland but also making this kind of degenerated folk music orchestra or group and that's what he sort of planted on me, I guess. And then I went back home and the funding wasn't really 100% green yet, so I was more or

[00:38:45] less waiting for that. Everybody was waiting around for it to happen because it happened really quickly. And in the meantime, I recorded a song because I started to think about what with Swedish folk culture, what can be scary? Where are sort of the pressure points? And some of the images is really easy too because this kind of medieval or 17th

[00:39:15] century, 18th century drawings can be sort of quite icky in a way. But I also, I was thinking a lot about how folk music, in those parts in Sweden, there is a kind of league of musicians and they gather sometimes and have like this really large sets of people playing like the key harp and the violin

[00:39:45] and everything and in the folk traditions, it's not really like you don't have like Stradivarius violins or maybe you're not too picky about tuning. So when you have this massive kind of string violin wall of sound that sort of more or less kind of almost in tune, it can be very, very eerie. So I started to cutting out

[00:40:13] samples of examples of that and I made a kind of inspiration soundtrack, which is actually on Spotify, I think, still. Literally just found it in the harp and song, right? Yeah. Which I sort of played to myself and later on I distributed among the crew just to sort of get into the mood.

[00:40:43] and, you know, after that we got Ragnar involved because I said that I don't think I can do... I mean, one, there was a lot of work to be done and so we knew from the beginning that we have to, as you always do in filmmaking, you have to sort of cut corners and cheat a little bit. But I knew that I, even though I'm an illustrator, it would take me too

[00:41:12] long to sort of nail this. And Ragnar is, you know, he's like a fine artist really and I knew him from before because we sort of worked earlier and he has this kind of, like, goth profile. So I thought that if I could just tweak it a little bit so it looks a bit older, he would, you know, know what to go for,

[00:41:42] I guess. And in beginning it was a bit of trouble, but then I think we nailed it pretty much. Yeah, I mean, I would absolutely have to agree with that. But I would say as well, I mean, you mentioned about how it would be a lot for you to take on as an individual. I mean, I don't think I can remember many movies that have this level of kind of artistry throughout, you know, talking from like the opening titles throughout all of the set

[00:42:12] design and then, you know, all the way to the finale. And yeah, I'm just, I'm curious as to how, I mean, I'm guessing the answer is very, but like how complex this was because, I mean, everything is so, the artwork and the attention to detail just seems so intricate throughout. I mean, it must have taken you guys hours. Especially when you're in a world now where you have people like us

[00:42:41] stopping things and looking really closely at pictures and wondering what it means. But I, that was actually one of the first things I did when we started talking about the project because I never saw Hereditary, but I knew it was like a hit and then I wanted to check out, you know, what kind of films is he making and, you know, because it's, you know, it's the director's film, so it's,

[00:43:13] I thought I should be a bit sort of informed. And then the first thing when I started to go around, I actually, what I stumbled across, the first thing I saw was one of, you know, people like you who were sort of dissecting a trailer for Hereditary, like zooming, like stopping the image and then zooming in on these sort of

[00:43:43] building plans and the dollhouse things and stuff like that. And try to, even before seeing the movie, try to kind of find some kind of reasoning around what, you know, what will this, be about. So then I thought that, okay, so this is the kind of audience we're sort of up against or up with maybe. And then I realized that the more we can sort of cram in there, the better.

[00:44:13] And I mean, some things, I mean, we didn't even discuss it much. So I think we all sort of, because the backstory story in itself is very interesting. And I think one thing that I learned working with this is that you don't have to explain everything, but you have to make it believable. And what believable is,

[00:44:42] is just this kind of pattern recognition thing that you look at it and you don't understand it, but you just think that it is plausible. If I would stumble across something, if I was traveling through the galaxies and I landed on a planet and I saw these sort of buildings or constructions, you know, it's silly. Yeah, yeah, I'm buying this, you know, which I think is so,

[00:45:13] if you look at, you know, like a classic, like the movie Alien or something, it's like everything is so unnatural or sort of so unknown, but we still sort of see how it sort of has this kind of connection. I think that sort of one way to create that is to actually have a very sort of strict idea about everything. So when we worked

[00:45:42] with the choreographer and the set designer, we talked about, you know, how are they doing these things? You know, what does these rituals actually consist of in a much, much, much deeper level than is actually used even for telling the story in the film, you know? So there's a lot of sort of content there that it's not needed, but I think

[00:46:11] it sort of comes across, if you know what I mean, that you sort of, even though it's sort of a backdrop to the actual storytelling, you think, yeah, I recognize that. And a lot of stuff that I did, I didn't even discuss it, even with the set design. I just thought that, you know, it would be cool if the, like the runes used in the film, they are, have taken

[00:46:41] off and being, so starting off with being inspired by the Viking runes, or the, like the middle runes, but then they are taking off in a direction that they are more inspired by the way they dance, you know, the choreography like this. Yeah. And we came up with the idea that the runes are actually sort of dancing people, or they are sort of converging towards that.

[00:47:10] And that's, you know, it's not in the script, and it's not really a part of anything, but I think, you know, it's just something you, you, you, you, it creates this kind of possibility or credibility that even though it's just fantasy, you kind of buy into it. It feels almost similar to like Tolkien kind of doing his whole language for Elvish in Lord of the Rings, right? It's completely unnecessary,

[00:47:40] but it adds to the mythos and everything. I'm really intrigued. You spoke about how people like Ian and I who maybe dissect these movies a little bit too much and look in and, you know, like to pause the scene and everything. And one of the things that Midsommar does, I don't think I've ever seen done ever before, is lays out the entirety of the plot in a single image before the movie's rolled in the opening kind of,

[00:48:10] tapestry artwork. What, I mean, was that always the plan? Was that something that you guys in the art department kind of came up with? Or was it something that Ari wanted? Like, how did that come about? It's a funny thing, often in art, the greatest sort of achievements are made out of necessity. And that's something when I teach in schools, you know, because I have this designer background, I try to tell people, like,

[00:48:40] you should always go with the wind. If there is some kind of element that is pushing you, if you have a limitation in a project, just set your sail with that limitation, you know, in your back and take it away from there. Never go against the wind. And because if you go with the flow like that, I think you can find something that makes sense, both in what tools you have

[00:49:09] available and what you're trying to achieve. So the thing with the tapestry is that in the script, the walls like it's mostly the walls in the big house. And in the script, it only says that the images on the walls are depicting like the history of the Horgas, you know? So we had a lot of discussions about me, Ragnar, and Henrik,

[00:49:39] or even just me and Ragnar, you know, what would that be? And at one stage, I had this idea that it would be like almost like an Aztec calendar kind of thing. I was envisioning like they had a kind of matrix. You see how overly involved that. Like if you think like if you had a grid,

[00:50:09] you know, like you have this because the Horgas are going through different ages that spans over several years and everything. so if you had like, now we're going through this kind of yellow 500 years, you know, so every 30 years you're down on this sort of horizontal line and then you go over like 70 years and then you end up in a matrix. so this

[00:50:39] particular year we're doing these rituals and this sort of or maybe this historical event happened and even though it wouldn't be expressed that I thought that it would be like graphically it would be just like an Aztec calendar that it's both this kind of giant aesthetic sort of element and you could also maybe spot some kind of logic or, you know,

[00:51:09] sense that's there but then very quickly we realized that we were never going to be able to make the artwork that complex and that sort of detailed and there is only one point in the script where there is like a scene description or where an image behind

[00:51:37] the actors should be in a certain way no spoilers so that's the only mentioning in the script that you know of an actual sort of what an actual image should look like but then after a while I because then I started to get drawings and then construction drawings of the

[00:52:07] house and I realized that it's like several hundred square meters of art that we have to produce and this was before and a long time I didn't even think about the ceiling so I was happy I didn't get that from the beginning and then I said that I have to come up with some kind of design system so then I made these kind of

[00:52:38] borders border designs so I could repeat things and then I said I'm going to do this like a grid system almost like a magazine and then we can I can ask Ragnar to make a lot of different images and maybe also like almost like clip art and I can reproduce them and rearrange them and then we can get something that looks like it's

[00:53:08] original but actually sort of repeats itself and then we said okay that would be manageable then we could probably do it in the time we had and everybody said okay let's do that and then Ragnar disappeared for a week or a couple weeks and

[00:53:40] I was like just tried to come up with some rituals or something stuff that happened before in their life and he was like I can't do that it takes too much time to and I was like okay I'll come up with something so I sat down to make a kind of script for him you know try to come up with stuff that had happened to the horghast before and I mean I could come up with

[00:54:10] something but pretty soon I realized that I can't fill all these square meters you know with these ideas and he can sort of draw everything that I'm telling him and then it suddenly dawned upon me like if they do this every 70 years or 90 then everything that happens in the movie must have happened before so then I just took the script and I

[00:54:40] took like a marker and it just marked everywhere in the script when they do something and then I send it over to Ragnar just do everything that's in the movie but like it happened last time or even the time before that and he was like all right so suddenly I let the script do my job and then when we got back the images I suddenly realized that this is

[00:55:10] going to be really that maybe we could use this and make scenes in the movie look like if you're familiar with Peter Greenway's draftman's contract like we could do scenes in the

[00:55:40] movie look even more like the drawings but then I don't know if they turned down that idea and I thinking about it now I think that had been sort of maybe too obvious in a way but for me so that whole idea which is in afterthought or in insight

[00:56:09] that's one of the things that people remember with the movie and it also ties in with the inevitability of the fate of the characters and even people now are wondering how early on he was sort of prepping them that even her parents death did they

[00:56:40] sort of go around looking for people in that situation or were they actually sort of this is what I've read on the internet people are speculating about the movie and I don't think even Ari has an answer to that it's just part of the story but I think that what we did with that was actually just me solving the problem of not having enough time

[00:57:11] and just imagine if it has been this kind of as the calendar it wouldn't have been as good of a movie so that's really cool and that's what I like also about filmmaking is that everybody is very preoccupied with their own little problem they are solving which means that anybody can come up with ideas that leaks into your own

[00:57:41] department or responsibility which makes it much better because they are not responsible and I was thinking about it a lot because we have this contact like when you work as

[00:58:13] the food or the clothing like the costume or the set design or the props building and everything I sort of felt it was very easy for me to come up with an answer because it was my problem as art director to help them but it was not my problem to

[00:58:44] and went oh that's a great idea and I had this feeling that I was easing the burden of other skilled professionals and I've been thinking a lot about that since that experience like when I'm in kind of a creative if I'm stuck in any I just try to so maybe I can just sort of get some other someone else's opinion on stuff and

[00:59:14] they will be very open because it's not their problem they are not sort of burdened by this they are just you know enthusiasts yeah I'm guessing with with Midsommar especially with that if because from what you said with kind of all the art and the design and stuff it was so rooted in basically mapping out and building the history that the film is set in it would have opinions on everything

[00:59:44] else that was going on because it's like well we decided 400 years ago this happened and this would lead to the evolution of this and kind of that but yeah I think it's like like like like you said kind of previously like I what I didn't really kind of I think appreciate until recently weird

[01:00:14] weird podcast to mention we're talking about Midsommar but there is a British podcast called Off Menu which is two British comedians talking about their dream food and they had Florence Pugh come on as a guest and one of the hosts is obsessed with Midsommar so I was asking her about that and she was talking about I think there was a picture on the ceiling in the dormant tree where she was lying down during a scene she kept having to look at that

[01:00:45] and I

[01:01:34] like I mean, if you don't have any budget restrictions, everybody would love to work like that. But it's not like you have a house and you only sort of make a 90-degree sort of two-walls meeting. And after a while, it's just drywall or, you know, like, are you really wanted? And I think they, from the beginning, I think they,

[01:02:02] I mean, like, you know, on all films, there was a lot less time that was anticipated from the beginning and a lot less money. And I think partly the reason why the film stands out now is that everybody was kind of, it was almost, I think, slipping out of everybody's fingers all the time, which I think in the end is very good for a film

[01:02:31] or any kind of artwork. But it can also sort of, you can also actually drop it, you know. And I think in the end, you see something that isn't really under anybody's complete control, if you know what I mean. But there was something else I was going, yeah. Yeah, but the thing is, so what we knew from the beginning, or Henrik told me, like, whatever we do, we must do it.

[01:03:01] So if Ari decides that the camera should, you know, point the other direction, there has to be something there. You know, we can't, we are not building a set. We're building a milieu or, you know. And of course, we cheated a lot as well. But it's like the big house is really, you know,

[01:03:26] 100% sort of complete with, I did the decorations of all the beds and like everything is sort of, was there when they shoot the movie. And I was not on set, you know, when the filming took place. But I've heard later from people in the crew, like the Swedish actors and stuff like that, that there are some beautiful images also with Ari

[01:03:54] and, you know, with Pew and other actors. Like they gathered in the big house. Yeah. And there was this kind of energy in there that sort of, you know what I mean? It sort of fueled the crew, you know. And when everybody stepped inside, even if you were working with, you know, electrician or makeup or everything, everybody sort of got a bit quieter. And there was like this, you know,

[01:04:21] the presence of the film to be was already in that room, which I think is a very beautiful, you know. Well, I guess in that sense, like you kind of, so you kind of built, you've not really built a set, right? You've built, you kind of built the world building activity. Yeah. I mean, yeah. The entirety. What happens to it? Like there's so much effort has gone into and detail has gone into this. And I'm assuming a tremendous amount of time.

[01:04:50] Like you talk about how much detail went into the beds and the walls and everything. Like what's happened to all of this stuff? Where was it? Is it just? Yes. And please tell me it's not just gone because that breaks my heart. It's such cheap material. It's not like you could live there. I mean, those houses, they couldn't stand a wind. I mean, one really good storm and they probably just, you know,

[01:05:15] it's not like you, it's not a structure that's the last, you know. So that's where you sort of cheat, I guess. What does that, what's that like as an art? Like you've kind of put your heart and soul into something like this. And I know it's there forever on film, but like, is it kind of, I don't know. Thinking personally, if I'd kind of created this only for it to go, I think I would be distraught.

[01:05:42] So I'm curious as to what that feels like where you kind of pulled so much into it. That's how you, that's your job. And I think, I mean, actually let me answer it this way. The thing with film, which is both very sort of nerve wracking when you're working on it, but also is like the, it's so pleasurable when you see the final film,

[01:06:10] is that everybody is sort of working against, everybody has less money and less, too little time, whatever. So if it was just up to the script, or if it was just up to the actors, or if it was just up to the photographer, or if it was just up to the props people,

[01:06:35] or the art director, or just up to the music, the film wouldn't work. But when you see the result, like whenever I sort of submitted material to the props people, or the set designer, I had this feeling that I wasn't finished. Like people, this looks like crap. I need to put more time to, we have to work on this more. And I tried to, you know, I don't know, we have to start printing this.

[01:07:05] We have to start, you know, manufacturing this. It's going to be, and I was like, shit, people will look at this and laugh. But then when you see the result, there is like, the actor is like making the script look good. And the acting and the script is making the background look good. And the background is sort of helping the actor look good when they are sort of slipping. The background makes the story in the script look sort of believable.

[01:07:35] The music, you know, backing up everything. And the photographer is sort of making all the flaws in my work and the script. And you know what I'm saying? It's like every piece is sort of holding all the other pieces under their arms.

[01:07:53] And so it's like this sort of scaffolding of different art forms that are, everybody is sort of not satisfied. But every part of the art form is kind of covering up for the flaws in the others. Which is a beautiful thing.

[01:08:17] And when I saw the first, like the takes of the day, you know, I don't know what you call it in English. Like the first acting taking place with sort of my work behind it. I was like, you know, this is so good. And they are sort of making my work come alive. And maybe vice versa to some extent. Which I think, you know, and that's my answer.

[01:08:46] That my work exists only in the film. It's like those walls or those sort of physical objects. I mean, maybe it would be nice to have like some kind of memento. I think some of them are sort of running the circuit. But it's really, I don't look at them and think, wow, this is fantastic. It's just everything was just on the edge of being catastrophically bad.

[01:09:15] But it doesn't matter because that's the magic of film happens, you know. And that's so cool. Yeah. And I guess it must also kind of be weird as, again, because like you've obviously a lot of kind of thought went into this before you even started producing everything. To then have it go completely out of your hands, being filmed hundreds of miles away by a director who, like you said, will sometimes just decide, actually, no, we're going to film that over here today.

[01:09:43] Did you have any idea what the film was going to end up like? Like, did it match to what you thought it would be? Was it completely different? I remember seeing it for the first time that I think it felt more kind of self-aware than I believe the script. But, I mean, when you read the script, you're sort of, you're building the film and whatever in your own head.

[01:10:13] And I think the final film is, I mean, with the ending and everything, with the music, it really kind of breaks a lot of barriers. So I think the first time I saw it, I felt that I was not disappointed, but I was sort of, I lost my balance a little bit because it was so unexpected.

[01:10:37] And then I, with time, I realized that I was sort of building a more conventional because I was trying to solve, I was sort of aiming for something. I was trying to build like a result that was more conventional than necessary in my head. And then I sort of tried to do my work.

[01:11:03] But when I did my actual work, I think I was as, you know, to keep it interesting for myself. I tried to keep it as daring, as sort of experimental as I felt I could. But now in time, I think that what was created was, which I think you should always strive for, something that actually sort of stands out and is memorable in its own right.

[01:11:33] Even though you are not making it 100% like it sort of normally is done. Yeah. I also think that the, I'm not sort of an avid horror movie fan, really.

[01:11:46] But I think that part of the culture or subculture or movie culture has evolved to a point where you can actually sort of reference and sort of re-reference and re-re-re-reference to so much.

[01:12:04] That kind of, you're always sort of blinking in some direction to some earlier work in a way that I feel it's a genre that's sort of almost sort of folding into itself in a way. So there might be things that I'm actually kind of even missing.

[01:12:25] But I think as far as my sort of my contribution to the film, I think it was even better than I, it sort of landed better than I anticipated.

[01:12:41] And I'm proud that it has sort of, you know, I think it has been regarded that like the aesthetics or whatever, the design of the film and the art direction is actually sort of what a lot of people sort of remember and revere with it, which is really cool.

[01:13:04] And I think the film is going to be this kind of weird classic in a way, which I think that, I don't know where Ari's sort of trajectory is heading. But I think this film will always sort of stand out in his production, I think.

[01:13:26] Well, definitely. And I think in kind of horror movies in general, because like you said, it's, I think one of the reasons the art direction and kind of the design stands out so much is, again, not to sound like a broken record, but it is always there. It is always on display. There's no, nothing's hiding in shadow or anything like that. It is everything is just there. I think it takes a very, like you said, I kind of like to your point of kind of everything feeding into each other.

[01:13:53] I think that getting that balance right, especially with a film like this, if you got that wrong, wouldn't work. Wouldn't work at all. No, yeah, it's interesting how far, I think you could, you could sort of push it in.

[01:14:07] I remember while working on that, that I was a bit worried about the details, like you can't get the, you can't get flowers from a Swedish summer meadow in Hungary. You know, so there's a lot of details in the film that I think for a Swedish audience, it sort of gives it away that it's actually all, it's an international production.

[01:14:34] And that sort of disturbed me a lot in the, like when I saw it the first time, when I saw the photos of the arrangements and everything we worked on, I was like, ah, this is not Swedish sort of biology. Of flora, stuff like that, you know, but then it doesn't matter.

[01:14:55] And after a while I thought it's actually, it's sort of with this kind of like this almost like surrealistic feel throughout the movie. It actually enhances that in a way, or maybe it's just me sort of, like it's almost like in a dream. Like you take, it's not those flowers, it's just flowers.

[01:15:21] It becomes a mash of maybe what the Americans are sort of thinking, like they don't know about the flowers. So are they really living this or are they sort of, you know, because the film is actually, we haven't talked much about the script as such,

[01:15:41] but there's a lot of puns made by sort of around anthropology and what is accepted when it's too far from your own culture. Like, like when the first killing is, it's like they are, they don't want to disturb because it would be, look like they are sort of disturbing.

[01:16:07] Like the, like we, maybe if we go to some far end of the world, we would try to be respectful in a way. And in that way, we would actually sort of accept atrocities being made, which is really weird. But we, you know, that, I think that's very cleverly.

[01:16:32] That's one of the sort of many themes in the film, what I think is extremely well sort of presented. Yeah. But this kind of identity politics, that's we, in some aspects of our identities, we have the right to behave in some ways or not.

[01:16:50] And, and, and I, I think the, the, the, the, I mean, the, the protagonists in the movie, the Americans, they are all sort of in this sort of anthropology, anthropologic state of mind, which may be sort of part of why they don't sort of make it out. Because they realize too late that they are actually sort of intertwined in the, the interaction. And, and, you know what I mean?

[01:17:19] So, and that's very interesting because I think it's also said something about our, our time that we, we have more kind of possibility to, to get involved with other people and how other people are doing things. And maybe comment and, and they complain or, or, you know, share on other people's behavior.

[01:17:46] But it also makes all these sort of, where are the barriers and what, what are you actually sort of entitled to, to how much can you sort of interfere with other people doing their thing? Which I think is one of the great challenges of our time, actually. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean, it's our, our, our reading of the film, which we've talked about in kind of the, the other Midsommar episodes we've done. Oh, yeah.

[01:18:11] Is always, it's that, but it is then also guiding the audience along the path. So by the end, it's like, oh, I get it. I get why she's done all of this and she's now with them. Like, it all makes sense. And then you, you think back, it's like, oh, actually no, because just because, because the, the, the, you know, the, the antagonists in it. So the actual Horgo are the nicest people in the film. They're just really, they're really polite.

[01:18:42] They're really open. They're quite, until they kill them. They're quite respectful of the kind of the guests that have come there. They've invited. And it's like, yeah, they're just, they are the most polite villain. Again, quote unquote villains in all of them. No, but I mean, there is a, there is a kind of logic.

[01:19:01] And I think, I think what we are getting sort of, the thing that confuses us is that they are, are, the Horgas are not, it's at least, it doesn't seem like they are doing anything for personal gain.

[01:19:18] Which I think in our culture is like, part of what is sort of worth reprimanding or worth sort of criticism is that if you do something evil within the, the, the, almost like the definition of being evil is you're doing something for your personal gain. You are making other people suffer or, you know, work too much or whatever, because you want something for yourself.

[01:19:46] And when you take that element away, as with the Horgas, it's very hard for us, like this anthropologic, when we look at them and trying to understand them, that, that if they are not doing it because they are egoists or, or, you know, they do not do anything for, for personal, are they really even them?

[01:20:07] You know, we, we, we, we, our sort of tools are, are useless in trying to decipher whether they are morally bad or good in a way, you know, to some extent, I guess. And, and, and, and you, you, you, you can say, and, and it also sort of plays back to, you know, practical philosophy of, you know, altruism and, and whatever, like, like the greater good.

[01:20:32] And, and if a society can make it a little bit better for everybody, but somebody has to die, you know, is it like we do with them? That's something we discussed with the, like automobiles, cars are acceptable because the, the gain is so high, but we are actually letting, you know, I don't know how many in Britain, but in Sweden,

[01:20:58] there's like a hundred people who die every year in car accidents. And so there's a cost, you know, and if people are sitting in cars dying or jumping off a cliff dying, just so everything can go on and we, we can all sort of reap the benefits of that, you know, that's, that's the kind of issues we are dealing with every day, I guess.

[01:21:21] Like in Sweden, even though we have great healthcare, you know, above a certain age, you don't really treat people for cancer anymore because, you know, it's, yeah. And, and, and, and I mean, that, that's, it, it's, it's sort of, you know, plausible, but, but, but it's the kind of questions that we, every society has to deal with in their own ways. Yeah.

[01:21:48] We, is, so you, there's a lot of kind of themes that you kind of picked out there. One thing that we haven't really discussed that I think is a theme that runs throughout the entire movie is this kind of experience of grief from the kind of opening scene and how Danny's character kind of deals with that throughout and kind of becomes the reason that she kind of accepts the Hager at the end, right?

[01:22:13] Because they're the only people that have kind of understood her and how, was that a particular influence? Or did you, did you have that in mind throughout kind of all of the art direction with the sort of, this is a kind of a story about grief? Or was, were you more focused on the kind of bringing to life this kind of, I don't think ancient's the right word, but like this, this kind of pagan society?

[01:22:41] I mean, where's the barriers between the two? There is, there is, in one way, there is a, there is a treatment of color that goes through the movie, which kind of, what do you say?

[01:22:56] It kind of follows her development as a character in a way, but as a theme, because I was, I was, I was sort of more concentrated on making this kind of backdrop, which was actually sort of more about one single person's journey or dramatic journey throughout the, the, throughout the film.

[01:23:24] So I, I didn't think, I never made any decision like, oh, this is in the beginning of the film, so it should look, you know, this and that. Yeah. But, but there are other aspects of the film that, that follows that sort of arc, of course.

[01:23:40] But, but, but reading the script, I think, I didn't, I don't, I don't think I picked up that part of the story as being, it was not in the foreground as much, I think, as in the final result. Okay.

[01:23:56] And, and, and it was maybe her sort of decision choices, I think they were even more, what do you say? Like, I think the script, I think her situation came off as being sort of even more dire.

[01:24:46] Mm-hmm. Sort of explains it a bit more. I think, you know, like how really, how, how sort of lost she feels. But, but I, I mean, even reading the script, I, I picked up the idea of this, which I also think is a challenge of, of our time.

[01:25:09] Like, how, in what context do we feel really sort of, in a way sort of like we have a collective belonging. Mm-hmm. Are we belonging to, when we think about ourselves as being a part of collective? Well, what is that collective, you know? I think that's, that's really interesting on some of the stuff that, you go back to coming to some of the identity politics and stuff you talked about before.

[01:25:35] Or, I, you see a lot of these kind of extreme groups that pop up, right? And you have like, without getting too political, you have like the QAnon stuff in the US, right? Which objectively is kind of, it's extreme, but people gravitate towards it because they feel alone. They feel the lack of belonging. They find people who accept them and they kind of embrace it. And I guess that's a very similar trajectory to what is kind of displayed in the movie as well.

[01:26:05] Yeah. And I, I don't think, I mean, there's in, in the, in the US, there's a lot of theories about, you know, this book Bowling Alone, which came out almost 20 years ago now. But, you know, how, how the fabric of society is sort of getting thinner and thinner.

[01:26:23] And I think that for some people, I think the, the Horgas, they, in some way they are, are, can be sort of seen as some kind of ideal for some people. You know, if you, if you want to sort of erase your sort of individuality for the price of being totally, as it says in the films, you're being carried.

[01:26:51] And you are carrying others while you do it. I mean, that prospect seems pretty nice in a way. You know, I mean, even seeing the movie, I feel that I understand what she's longing for. And, and a part of me also would, you know, like to be part of some kind of perfectly choreographed, some kind of sort of meaning or, or structured coexistence with others.

[01:27:21] Which sounds sort of horrible because, you know, you see the bad sides of it also. But I think what, what, what makes us as an audience so sort of ambivalent to this film is that we, we see the, it sort of calls to us. I think that we, we need our, you know, chat groups and there is something, we seek this.

[01:27:46] And I think, you know, again, identity politics is partly a sign of that, that what, what is it with me that I can sort of project so that I'm bigger than, something more than just me as an individual? Or what part of my history, my heritage or my, my, you know, attitude or whatever can I sort of use to attach myself to these others?

[01:28:13] So even, even if it's a religious background or, you know, skin color or the belief in conspiracy theories, we all have to sort of just use what we have to, to create this connection. Which means that we have a longing for this or maybe a lack of it, you know, in the, our modern life. I don't know.

[01:28:35] But it's very, it's very easy to, to, to, to, it sounds like cliches because I, in a lot of ways, I think we're, you know, the modern world is pretty good too. But, yeah. In the film, I, I, as, as you said earlier, it's, it's hard to look at the horror guests as being terrible people. There's something with that. I think that's sort of part of the reason that they are actually just trying to make it work, you know, in a way.

[01:29:06] Yeah. And I think that's what kind of differentiates it for me from kind of your more like traditional folk, folk horror stuff. Because in most of the stuff, so like the Wicker Man, it's like people on Summer Isle, obviously even from the outset, we know something is weird. We know things, things are wrong. But this one again, it is, it's. Out in the open. From the beginning, you think, oh, okay. Something's wrong. Yeah.

[01:29:34] Yeah, I think that's sort of a trap, even though that's a pretty nice, it's a very nice movie in a lot of ways. But, yeah, totally. Like, like they are sort of, they have passed, you know, the point, you know, where they, they will sort of never be, you can't forgive them.

[01:29:57] You know, they are sort of, they have sort of crossed the line into this sort of, whatever, moral sort of control or, you know, you just want to burn the whole island down. Yeah. I thought from fresh, but the Horgus is another story. It's like, you know, it's like, oh. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:30:21] I was really curious to know, you've mentioned Ari a few times and what it was like, you know, he, he likes to move things around and stuff and it's a little bit unpredictable. But how, and I guess the reason I want to ask this question is going back a couple of years, he did ask me anything on Reddit. And one of the questions, because of the nature of his films and stuff, someone just asked the question, Ari, are you okay? And he replied, no.

[01:30:50] And ever since then, I've been really curious as to like, what is, what is, what is the man like? Like, what was it like working with him? Is it like, he's obviously got a lot of these really dark stories and tales to tell. But yeah, just curious as to what it was like working with Ari and, and on the movie. And yeah, if you, if you do something like this again. What's that?

[01:31:16] I mean, I think my situation doing this and, and, and I think I share this with a, because when the project went sort of stateside, when we got A24 or we, they got A24. As sort of a production company. There was this sort of, everything became an American project or whatever.

[01:31:42] And there was like a core group of, of creatives involved that stayed on the project. And I think partly that was because everybody in the, like the producers thought that, you know, if we need an art department that's supposed to mimic this central Swedish heritage folk culture, maybe it's good to have them on. Yeah.

[01:32:12] Rather than, you know, trying to find, find someone in LA to, to do that. So I think we, I mean, we who stayed on were there as a kind of, you know, the, the, that's what we were there for. Uh, and, uh, Henrik being the mastermind of, of the set design has been involved so long with everything, with the whole project.

[01:32:36] Uh, but that meant as well that, that, that, I think Ari and I, we had discussions like maybe two or three times, like almost everything I did just went into production.

[01:32:52] Uh, I hope that it's because it was good, but I can, I can, I can, I kind of realized that, that maybe he just trusted that we were sort of keeping it real in, in, we were doing what we were there for. And he wanted the authenticity and that was not really his problem to, to question that for us.

[01:33:16] Uh, so I think on another project, uh, things might have been, you know, very different, uh, because he, he was placing this story in a setting that he, I mean, he's been to Sweden several times, but it's not like he knows about this stuff. Yeah. Uh, uh, so I, I think he, he just, you know, like I'm letting them do their stuff.

[01:33:45] And, and, and as I said, I, I, I'm not the set designer, so I didn't have to, to, to make anything work in a way that's sort of directly connected with the actual filming. So I'm just sort of painting my, my aesthetic brush over everything. Yeah.

[01:34:08] Uh, but, but, but I mean, I, I, I, there's, there's nothing sort of loony about him at all. I think he has extreme control. Uh, in that way. But I mean, the, the, the experience I, I've never sort of directed film, but, but one thing you, you realize when you are involved in, in film projects,

[01:34:37] is how, how loose the, the matter is, you know, a film isn't a film until it's sort of edited and running on the screen. Up till that point, you can do a lot to change that, you know? So even if you're sort of, you have the script and, and you, because when I worked with my first film projects, I thought that a film was, you, you, you took the script and you sort of acted out what was in the script.

[01:35:06] And that was the film. Like the film was already, the script was the story. And that sort of, you couldn't turn a comedy script into, you know, something serious or whatever. And then when you work with film a couple of times, you realize that you can almost make everything out of anything. And the weird thing is that you can almost change everything at any point of the production.

[01:35:35] You could actually edit, you know, you have the same footage, you have the same hard disk drives with, with film sequences. And you can turn it into almost any kind of story when you're finished, which means that nobody who's involved, including the director, is 100% sure what the hell is. Where are we going to land, you know?

[01:35:59] And if, if, if, if some actor is doing something in a special way, if some of the set design is done in a special way, if the weather or some other condition is, you know, acts up in some way, that might sort of change the, the artistic direction at the end of the project. You know what I mean?

[01:36:25] It's like, you, you, you're always trying to, and that's, I guess, comes back to what I'm saying. Like, if there's something that is pushing you, try to set the sail using that force. And I, that I'm, I'm positive that directors and I've been editing some films as well. And, and it, it's, it's surprising how much of the result and the sort of the artistic result is actually happening in the edit room.

[01:36:54] When you, when you sort of, you see that some scenes are stronger and they are stronger in a certain way. So maybe the whole film should be sort of leaning. We make everything lean heavier on those topics or those sort of moments in the film. And the end result will get better, even though we've sort of derived a little bit from the, what we thought we were going for in the beginning.

[01:37:23] So that's, it's extremely complex. And then the director shows that it to the, like the production company. And then they say, ah, this is not what we envisioned. You know, and, you know, and you go back and maybe use, oh, well, we can tweak like this. And then we go back and like, yeah, now it's finished. You know, so it's really like a, it's, it's a lump of clay in the last moment. It's really extraordinary.

[01:37:52] And that, that, that I think not most. And it's, of course, it's differences between different films and different productions. The more money you get, the more controlled you have to be, you know. But I think it's true in a lot of ways for, for all filmmaking. You are really taping everything at every step of the way. And you mentioned the production company there.

[01:38:19] And I think A24, certainly in recent years, you know, they've put out things like Midsommar, everything everywhere, all at once. Like there's, they're really taking a lot of, I don't know if risks is the right word, but certainly movies that big studios aren't necessarily going to hedge their bets on. And it must be quite refreshing working in that kind of environment where my assumption is maybe you have a bit more creative freedom with a project like this.

[01:38:45] Yeah, I would say, I mean, they, I don't know what kind of sort of freedom or pressure, because I think it can work both ways. But I've definitely, you know, what they have done, if, you know, production is doing anything.

[01:39:03] But they've, for some reason, they have been behind a lot of interesting films and TV productions. So there's something they're doing that's working for our benefits, that's for sure. But I'm not really sure if it's because they're not meddling or if they are meddling.

[01:39:30] It's, it's, I don't know, but, but absolutely. I think they are sort of when, I don't know, when, when HBO started making TV series, you had this, there's a kind of a touch and a taste to everything, which was very, and I think A24 is at this date, it's sort of, they are behind almost everything that, you know, makes you look twice.

[01:39:59] Which is what the industry needs. And it's sort of, it goes in waves. And you get sort of, after a while, maybe you feel like, oh, it looks like an A24 movie, you know, like you would. And then somebody else has to come up and inject something else into the system. So that's how you work. It's always interesting because the only other, and this is a weird comparison, but I'm going to stand by it. The only other one I could think of to my head is like early day Pixar.

[01:40:31] Because regardless of the film and the story they were telling, if it was a Pixar film, you would watch it. And you kind of got that with A24 now, where just knowing it's A24, which is weird if you think about it, is enough to make me go, oh, you know what? I will watch it then. I will. It's obviously going to be good. Yeah.

[01:40:51] I mean, I think the comparison, I can think I'm, I think I'm a bit older than you are, but like in the nineties, there was a lot of like British record labels that you could sort of like warp, like FX twin. Like if something was released on a label, you bought it in the store without listening because you had this, like, it was like a taste filter or like guaranteed something, you know?

[01:41:20] And I think, I think that's how HBO worked in the beginning as well. You know, it's like, oh, this new series out on HBO and you just, it became almost like you subscribed, which you actually did. But you know what I'm saying? It's like, you got a new TV series in your mailbox and you just watched it. Like, and A24 has that kind of position now, I guess.

[01:41:46] So it's more like a record label or a film house. And I think they are sort of acknowledging that cultural sort of significance because they are doing all this merch and stuff, which is sort of has this.

[01:42:02] 360 degree attitude, which I think is also very modern in a way that you don't, like you guys are example, you don't stop consuming culture just because the end titles. Yeah. Or, you know, it's a, can become a part of your life or whatever you're, you're, you're dabbling with in your life, you know, for, for, for all aspects of life, really, for a long time after.

[01:42:32] You're actually sort of heart taken or, or both take it or whatever. I think it's, it's cool that they are acknowledging that, that aspect. Yeah. Of consuming culture as well. Absolutely. Well, and yeah, and maybe that's it. That's a good place to end it because you're right. We, we are keeping, keeping the Midsommar love going. This is, this is our third special for Midsommar.

[01:42:57] We also, I think in, so we, we, we do a film recommendation every week, every episode, and there is a film recommendation. And then there's also a Midsommar recommendation because we remind people every week that they should be watching Midsommar. So I think we've done it 156 times, is that right? 163. 163. One of them was recommending a double bill of Midsommar, which no one should do. One of them was a bad, one of them was a bad pun of Midsommar of 69.

[01:43:26] So we counted that as 69. And then someone recommended Midsommar, but imagine Nicolas Cage was in it. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, that, that, there's so many ways that this film could have ended up. Yeah. Oh yeah. But I must, I must ask you, have you, you, you do know that Horga is actually a real place? Yes. Yeah.

[01:43:55] I didn't realize that. Oh wow. And I, because whenever I go skiing, like when you, I go from Stockholm to Northern Sweden, about like halfway, I passed this sign, which is, you know, there's a, like a legend around this place that's actually not part of the backstory in the movie, but it's a story in itself. Like the, and maybe you know about it already or I don't know.

[01:44:24] I'm not sure about the story of the town. No, but like the, the Horga is a mountain, but it's like a very small because this is sort of in the middle of Sweden. And the story goes that the youngsters were sort of gathering to dance up at the, the Horga mountain. And then the, the devil came and maybe I'm getting this wrong, but the geist of the story

[01:44:52] is like the, the devil turned up and started to play. And, and, uh, uh, people started dancing and then they couldn't stop dancing and he played and he played and, and, uh, uh, at the end they were, their feet had worn down. So when they were dancing on the skeletal, like the, the bones of their, and then, you know, everybody died or something.

[01:45:17] And, and, uh, I guess the morale is that if you dance, you're going to have sex and everything. And so just stay out of there. But like three years ago, like after working with a movie and, and like maybe three years ago and I was going up to the mountains in the summertime. Uh, and then I passed, it was like maybe nine o'clock in the evening.

[01:45:40] And, uh, I was driving my sort of mobile home type car and, uh, I saw the sign and I said, I've never actually been there. And this is, you know, I've worked on this movie and everything. So I have to, so I, I left the main road and took this sort of, uh, and when I came up there and there's like, uh, it's not a national park, but it's sort of a recreation. It's, it's, it's the wilderness. It's a mountain.

[01:46:07] And I parked the car and it was like, like starting to get dark or dusky. Uh, and I, I thought there was, uh, you know, and then there was a map and there was like a trail. So I actually went up there. So I was there almost at midnight. Uh, and there is this quite extraordinary.

[01:46:28] It's like an, an enormous, uh, like stone, like a shelf, like a huge, uh, uh, flat stone surface, which is according to legend is like where they dance, like the dance floor. And there's a small cabin, uh, which is sort of kept by the villagers who live there and it's open. So you can actually hike up there and stay the night if you want to.

[01:46:56] And I'm not very easily scared, but it was definitely, you know, kind of ambience around that place in the middle of the summer night because it, it never gets dark, but it's sort of the shadows are very high. Uh, uh, and I was thinking when I returned, uh, like it's kind of cool that nobody around that area has picked up on the success of the film. Like they could sell some kind of package. Oh yeah.

[01:47:27] Yeah. But at the same time, I was like, I'm going to mail them and everything. But then I was, then I felt it's kind of cool that, that they are sort of keeping the, that part of the tradition because there's a small sign with the, like the original, uh, legend with the devil, uh, violin and everything. Uh, but, but, but it definitely has the kind of sort of eerie feeling. Yeah.

[01:47:54] Because when I came up there and the, like the, the wood cleared and I saw that stone tab and I saw the little, little hut. I was like, no, I'm done. I'm done. But then because it was there and because I was there, I had to go in there and it was, I was cool, but it's up for, if anybody wants to come to Sweden and experience that, that's my travel tip. Maybe that's where we'll have to do the fourth year.

[01:48:23] We'll do it on location. Yeah. In the freaky cabin where the devil told people to dance. That's, yeah. But I think, uh, yeah, I think that is only thing left to say is, uh, Nilo, thanks for joining us. Appreciate you taking time out of your, uh, your, your day and, uh, yeah, sure we'll have you back on at some point. It's a pleasure. It's always fun to, to, to, uh, discuss interesting things and, uh, love your work and everything.

[01:48:53] And, uh, I'm looking forward to the actual episode and, uh, take care in the meantime. And that was our interview with art director, Nilo Svensson. You would have just heard me thank him, but thanks once again to Nilo for taking not just the time, but a considerable amount of time, uh, to sit and talk with us about the film. Really does mean a lot to us, uh, especially as a small independent podcast.

[01:49:23] It is really nice when people who are involved in the, not just the medium we love, but literally our favorite film. Take the time to talk out to, uh, talk to us. Uh, we really do appreciate it. Um, once again, thanks to Petros for supporting us in trying to, uh, get guests. Um, with that in mind, obviously if anybody else involved with the film wants to come on the podcast to talk to us, we're not going to say no. Same time next year, I guess.

[01:49:50] So, you know, you guys have, uh, 12 months to figure out exactly how we can get in touch with Florence Pugh. If you enjoyed this episode, if you have any thoughts about Midsommar, if you've, I, I, I love when you guys message us to tell us that you have watched Midsommar because of us. It is, it really does make my day every single time. And to be fair, I think everybody who's watched it because of us has fucking liked it.

[01:50:18] There's been a couple of things of, holy shit, that was dark, or that was bleak, or why the hell did you make me watch that? It was great, but Jesus Christ, Ian. But it really does make my day when you guys message us. So if you have, you can find us on Instagram at the podcast nobody asked for. You can also find us on Patreon at the podcast nobody asked for, where you can become a friend of the podcast, help support us moving forward. There's various tiers.

[01:50:44] There's a Midsommar themed tier where you can get a copy of, uh, Midsommar, the director's cut on Blu-ray. There is a Midsommar themed t-shirt on one of the tiers. There's a lot of Midsommar related stuff for obvious reasons, but we would truly appreciate you guys signing up. Uh, you can also find us on Twitter at nobody asked for pod with the number four, and you can find all of our episodes and all of this details and some random top three lists about

[01:51:11] Graham and I on the podcast nobody asked for dot co dot UK. We would also appreciate that wherever you're listening to this, uh, you, if you can leave a review, leave a review for us. And in that review, put any future episode ideas you may have, and we'll make sure that we do our favorite ones. Thanks again. It's difficult to do like the hilarious non sequitur ending. I'm not even sure if non sequitur is the right word.

[01:51:41] You know who would know what the right word was? Graham. Or Neela, to be fair. Or probably anyone else but me. Ugh, no one asked for this. This podcast is part of Podomity, the UK's podcast comedy network.

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