Let's Talk About... Mary Bell, The Killer Child! Ep.34

[00:00:00] Music Right then guys, welcome back to Lets Talk About. We've got Liam and Billy here once again as always. Hello everyone, hope you're all well. I'll tell you are alright but we'll just finish recording once or we'll jump in straight into this.

[00:00:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah, we left that bit out there didn't we? How are you miss? Fanbloody tasking mate, still pissing down. See it was you were 20 minutes ago as is the weather. Yeah, right there mate. So before we get into this episode I've got another moral dilemma for you.

[00:00:30] Oh yeah. I'm gonna listen to this. So you're on all day with your family alone on a private stretch of beach with no lifeguard. Your son and your nephew, both seven, are best friends and eager to get into the water.

[00:00:43] You caution them to wait until the water calms some but they defage you and sneak in anyway. You soon hear screams of distress and find they both caught in a strong current.

[00:00:54] You are the only swimmer strong enough to save them but you can only save one at a time. Your nephew is a very poor swimmer and likely won't make it much longer.

[00:01:02] Your son is a stronger swimmer but only has 50% chance of holding on long enough for you to come back for her. Who would you save first? My son. Fair enough. I was gonna give you two options you prick but fair enough. I'm saving me son.

[00:01:17] I was gonna say would you save your son knowing that your nephew will probably die or save your nephew and hope that your son can hold on long enough. Yeah I'm saving my son. I'd probably be the same. You will be mate. You feel horrendous but...

[00:01:30] When that day comes around mate you'll know. It's your own. Yeah exactly. But that's the thing mate there's no risk you can't take that risk. If I know for sure for a fact then obviously but yeah my son comes first. Plus your nephew do you? Yeah. Yeah London.

[00:01:49] Oh yeah yeah. London you never see. Correct. Right then mate let's get into the actual episode shall we? So we're diving back into the world of true crime again and I've got one that's pretty close to us. So I'm going to be telling you about Mary Bell.

[00:02:06] So who is Mary Bell? Way A man. So Mary Flora Bell born 26th of May 1957 is an English woman who as a juvenile killed two preschool aged boys in Scotswood and in a suburb of Newcastle up on Tyne. Why A man? Well I...

[00:02:27] So the killing took place in 1968 so Bell committed her first killing when she was just 10 years old in both instances Bell informed her victim that he had a soft throat which she would mash her ass before proceeding to strangle them. Fucking ridiculous mate 10 year old.

[00:02:44] I mean strangulation at 10 year old you think maybe if they've got a little gun or something. I mean it's not much better but do you know what I mean? Little gun, what if they're black or something. A little glock or something mate.

[00:02:57] You'd think okay you can see maybe a 10 year old is pissing about. Strangulation mate. Bearans as well. Bearans? Christ how old was the boy? Well I'll get into that. We'll get into it sorry mate. So Bell was convicted of manslaughter in relation to both killings in December 1968.

[00:03:19] What manslaughter? Wait for it. In a trial held at Newcastle as sizes when she was 11 years old and in which her actions were judged to have been committed under diminished responsibility. There you go mate that's why it's manslaughter. What does that mean?

[00:03:37] Diminished responsibility so basically if you're mentally you've got mental illness and stuff. Alright okay. So if you're not all there upstairs we'll see. If you're not playing with a full deck. Yeah you can't be a 10 can you I suppose. Well this is what I mean.

[00:03:50] So she is Britain's youngest female killer and was diagnosed with a psychopathic personality disorder prior to her trial. Her alleged accomplice in at least one of the killings 13 year old Norma Joyce Bell, no relation, was acquitted of all the charges.

[00:04:08] Well I'm confused now so there was, I'm assuming you'll get into it but there was two of them? Yeah so like it was just a friend who was she was an extra on the other. Oh just a band watched. Yeah but I'll get in tomorrow that.

[00:04:21] Sorry I'm just fascinated mate. I know it's fucking crazy. So a bit of background so Mary Bell's mother Elizabeth known as Betty Bell. Betty Bell? Yeah. That's a good name only in a tune. Exactly. It was a well known local prostitute. Ah! Yes.

[00:04:40] Who was often absent from the family home frequently travelling to Glasgow to work and certainly leaving her children in the care of their father. If he was present. It, it, don't curve ball. What do you mean if he was present? So if he wasn't present what happens?

[00:05:01] Just left alone. Basically yeah. Right this is starting to make sense more and more. Exactly so Mary was her second child born when, born when Betty was just 17 years old. How old was she when the first one was born? Well at least, at least 16 years. At least 15 or 16.

[00:05:18] And I'm assuming that is it, we'll find out. So the identity of Mary's biological father is unknown. That answers my next question. For most of her life Mary believed her father to be William Billy Bell.

[00:05:30] He was a violent alcoholic and a habitual criminal with an arrest record for crimes including armed robbery. However she was a baby when William Bell married her mother and is unknown if he actually is a biological father or not. So it could be but he might not be.

[00:05:47] It was actually a proof. So Mary was an unwanted and neglected child according to her and... Fucking horrible mate. Exactly. I hate shit like that. So Mary was a violent alcoholic and a habitual criminal with an arrest record for crimes including armed robbery.

[00:06:04] So Mary was an unwanted and neglected child according to her and is unknown if he actually is a biological father or not. So Mary was an unwanted and neglected child according to her and is unknown if he actually is a biological father or not.

[00:06:21] Which led her family to believe that either her mother was deliberately... I can't say that word Billy, say that word for me mate. Deliberately? That's the fella negligent or intentionally attempting to harm or kill her daughter. Hang on you can't say deliberately but you can say it.

[00:06:38] What was he doing again? Negligent. Negligent. Alright. Exactly. So on one occasion in about 1960 Betty dropped her daughter from a first floor window. Oh mate I can't do these stories if I could annoy your life out of me. On another occasion she piled her daughter with sleeping pills.

[00:07:00] She is also known to have once sold Mary to a mentally unstable woman who was unable to have children of her own resulting in her older sister Catherine having to travel a lot across Newcastle to reclaim Mary from this individually

[00:07:13] and return the child to her mother's home on White House Road. Why the hell would you return her? Yeah. What the fuck is that? So this is Mary's sister. Yes. Older sister as well. No no so this is another sister. So her auntie. Say again.

[00:07:29] So it's Mary's auntie. Yes. Right okay I'm with you. Yeah why the fuck should you give her back? You tell me mate, you tell me. Yeah this is 100% serial killer in the making.

[00:07:40] So despite her negligence and abuse of her child Betty refused repeated offers from her family to take custody of Mary. Right mate so before I get into this next paragraph I'm just going to give a little warning to people

[00:07:52] because this next minute or so might be very difficult to hear for some people. So this is a little pre-warning so if you want to jump ahead a minute, easy chance.

[00:08:02] Whom she as a dominatrix is alleged to have begun allowing and or encouraging several of her clients to sexually abuse in Seydour masochistic sessions by the mid 1960s Mary's mother actively participated in several of these sessions including several in which she blindfolded her daughter

[00:08:24] with a stocking before restraining her hands behind her back and forcing her to perform oral sex upon her clients. Shall we have a minute now mate because I feel a bit sick now. Please. So you had disgust didn't you mate?

[00:08:38] Yeah no words we can say for that right. Just move on shall we? Yes please. So both at home and at school Mary exhibited numerous signs of disturbed and unpredictable behaviour including sudden mood swings and chronic bedwetting.

[00:08:53] She is known to have frequently fought with other children both boys and girls and to have attempted to strangle or suffocate her classmates or playmates on several occasions. On one occasion she is known to have attempted to block the trachea of a young girl with sand. Christ?

[00:09:09] Yeah exactly. I mean she's probably got the strangulation thing from trauma like it's probably embedded in her head somewhere so. So this violent behaviour made many children reluctant to socialise with Mary kind of as I say. who would frequently spend her free time with Nora Joyce Bell

[00:09:28] Again no relation. The 13 year old daughter of a next door neighbour with whom she had become acquainted in early 1967. So building up to murder so on Saturday the 11th May 1968 a three year old boy was discovered wandering and dazed and bleeding

[00:09:47] in the vicinity of St Margaret's Road, Scotswood. No no. The child later informed the police that he had been playing with Mary Bell and Norma Bell atop a disused air raid shelter when he had been pushed.

[00:10:00] And so the air raid shelter was seven foot tall so he'd been pushed from the roof to the ground inflicting a severe laceration up to his head. And this is a fucking three year old? Yeah. Mate I don't understand. I know.

[00:10:11] When you've been through it yourself and then you inflict it upon others. Exactly. So he was unsure which of the girls had actually pushed him. The same evening the parents of three small girls contacted police to complain about both Mary and Norma had attempted to strangle their children

[00:10:28] as they played in a sand pit. It's fucking crazy isn't it? I'm just losing my mind. Slowly but surely. So that evening both girls were interviewed about these incidents. Both girls denied any culpability for the air raid shelter incident

[00:10:43] claiming that they had simply discovered the boy bleeding heavily from the head wound after he had fallen. Further questions about the attempted strangulation of the three young girls. Mary denied any knowledge of the incident however Norma admitted Mary had tried to throttle each of the girls.

[00:11:00] Who the fuck is this Nora? Why she got away with shit? I don't care she's Norma whatever the fuck. She's been there the whole time by the sounds of it for every fucking one of these situations. She's three years her elder probably an influencer.

[00:11:14] 100% an influencer and she gets acquitted. I fucking hate shit like that mate. I hate it. Wait until I get to the end mate. Wait until I get to the end. So Norma stated that she tried to throttle. So very good, love and word that. I thought.

[00:11:29] When I throttled you in a minute you bastard. Yeah we bastard. No it's Scottish isn't it? I was just going to say what the fuck was that. Anyway so Norma's statement goes as Mary went to one of the girls and said What happens if you choke someone?

[00:11:41] Do they die? Then Mary put both her hands around the girls' throat and squeezed. The girls started to go purple. I told Mary to stop but she wouldn't. Then she put her hands around Pauline's throat and she started going purple as well.

[00:11:54] Another girl Susan Cornish came up and Mary did the same things with her. Police notified the local authorities of the incident and of Mary's violent nature. But due to their age both girls were simply given a warning no further action was taken. Fucking bizarre.

[00:12:11] That's the only answer I've got. No further action. Fucking bizarre yeah. Give me a warning, you know when you strangle someone is that going purple? Stop doing that. Yeah put them in a fucking hospital. Why aren't they looking at the background?

[00:12:26] Why aren't they looking at the like I don't understand. I know it's the 19th, it's nearly the 70s isn't it? What the fuck is wrong with the 70s mate? What the fuck is... Right mate so I'm going to get into the murders now.

[00:12:41] Yeah right well before you get into the murders mate if I can hack them it's a little trailer I want to give a shout out to. So they are called conveniently Rainy Day Horrishore and it's the perfect day to listen to them having a listen to this mate.

[00:12:56] Big D get your butt over here. What do you want Dusty? What do you want me to do now? Me and you have got to come up with a dope fucking trailer so that people get in tune with our fucking podcast how we got going on here.

[00:13:20] What do you mean we need to make a trailer? Why do we have to do this? Big D alright I talked to you about this the other day okay we have to come up with a trailer so we can promote and just bring in some viewers

[00:13:36] you know tell them about how beautiful and sexy this fucking channel is. Dusty I don't know what you want us to do okay like I'm being so serious I don't know what's going on right now which what's going on your brain okay?

[00:13:55] Big D that's why I called you here big dog alright me and you I just got to do something okay alright I don't know how we're going to do this I don't know what way we got to do this

[00:14:06] but like we could I don't know spit balls some shit What do you want to start with? I don't know I was thinking maybe we could do like an old action trailer movie because that's what all of the podcasts do with their cliche fucking shit right?

[00:14:25] No Dusty we are not doing that. Come on Big D let's try it let's try it alright since the dawn of time there has been a beautiful podcast named The Rainy Day Horror Show Dusty that was so fucking bad

[00:14:45] Yeah I know okay we're jumpin let me try out something else alright let me try out something else if you've been looking for a good podcast for the longest time alright you go through all of them you haven't found that perfect one alright

[00:15:01] you haven't found that podcast that captivates you it has everything that you want right within a horror channel look no further look no further welcome to The Rainy Day Horror Show okay we are the buckies of the horror podcast

[00:15:22] genre weird pause there Big D but we're fucking rolling keep going Dusty we're doing fucking good right now thank you alright yes we are the buckies of the podcast genre the horror community buckies or if you want to even go even further we're the 7-Eleven alright

[00:15:42] we've got horror movie break towns we've got interesting interviews and not to mention we cover true crime paranormal urban legends alright I am your host with the most and the certified cougar hunter Dusty McBalls alright and the other guy that you hear me talking to

[00:16:07] he is the intro king the man the myth and the legend the man from down under Big D Big D say hi to these people and tell them about yourself hello guys I am Big D I am the intro guy thank you Big D that was fucking perfect

[00:16:28] the lights flickered when you did that kind of terrified me but we're here alright we upload on this channel four days a week five days a week sometimes six and seven so if you're looking for that horror you know channel that does it all

[00:16:44] come check out The Rainy Day Horror Show we got everything that's unique remember stay frosty stay foxy most importantly the most important thing on this channel well planet fuck stay safe you beautiful peacocks me and Big D we love you deuces

[00:17:09] alright then so go and check them out guys sound like a great podcast carry on please Liam I don't know if I want you to but let's go anyway right so again just a little background on the area before we actually get into the murders

[00:17:26] so in the 1960s Newcastle and Montaigne experienced a significant urban renewal project many in the boroughs of the city saw Victorian Ero-Terrace slums demolished in order that modern houses and flats could be constructed although several families resided in buildings earmatched for demolition as they awaited

[00:17:45] rehousing by the council local children frequently played in or close to the derelict houses and upon the rubble strone expanses of land raised and partially cleared by contractors right so terrorist houses what are they called for Americans yeah no no but what they call for Americans

[00:18:05] they have a different name for it don't they would never clue shite it's where houses that couldn't join and you basically got a yard I'm lucky I've got a garden in man have to clarify that Jesus Christ one of these locations was a large

[00:18:19] expanse of waste ground located close to a railway line known to the local children as Tin Lizzie so you know the boys are back and tell boys are back and tell wasn't Tin Lizzie your son that Finn Lizzie I'm sure it was yeah

[00:18:32] right so the street which ran parallel to this expanse of waste ground was St. Migrat's Road right then mate Martin Brown so on the 25th of May 1968 the day before her 11th birthday Belle strangled four-year-old Martin Brown in an upstairs bedroom of a derelict house located at 85 St.

[00:18:54] Migrat's Road why is she there why is she in a four-year-old's house not a derelict's house you idiot listen to what I'm saying derelicts is abandoned right yes well why is she still with a four-year-old because it's the 60s and 70s mate it wasn't like now

[00:19:10] people just left the doors unlocked kids just did what the hell they wanted yeah and this is what happens exactly which is why they don't know fucking annoys me mate guys if we were born in the 70s you'd have a fucking jade

[00:19:23] and would have a fucking job by now yeah probably exactly fucking four yes so she is believed to have committed this crime alone Brown's body was discovered by three children at approximately 3.30pm he was lying on his back with his arms stretched above his head

[00:19:41] aside from specks of blood and foam around his mouth no signs of violence were visible upon his body I can't do these children ones mate I can't do them well we'll make this the last one a local workman named John Hall soon arrived at the scene

[00:19:57] he attempted to perform CPR to Noa Vale as Hall attempted CPR to local girls 10 year old Mary Bell and her 13 year old friend and neighbour Norma Bell appear at the doorway to the bedroom fucking Norma's the bane of my life both were quickly shooed out of the house

[00:20:13] the two knocked on the door of Martin's and Rita Finley and informed her this is a horrible thing to say don't man first of all I'm gonna clarify that the word Benz means kids so one of your sister's Benz has just had an accident we think it's Martin

[00:20:33] but we can't tell because there's blood all over him imagine a little kid coming to you darling telling you that not just that that's the kid that done it so the following day Bernard Knight conducted a post mortem upon the body of Martin Brown

[00:20:50] Knight was unable to find any signs of violence on the child's body and thus was unable to determine the child's cause of death although he was able to discount the investigators theory the child had died of poisoning through ingesting tablets and inquest on 7th June

[00:21:08] returned an open verdict I mean wouldn't there be bruising around the neck also? well this is what I thought but then I was also thinking maybe because he's so small it would not take a lot to strangle a freehold oh why do you have to say that then

[00:21:23] you know what I mean no but then he was like because if me or you strangle the freehold look at your hands Leone but if a 10 year old does it there's going to be a big difference so maybe that's the only thing

[00:21:37] I can think of because I did wonder that when I was researching this so this next bit this is even how the fuck can it get worse breaking in between the murders on Mary's 11th birthday so the day after 26th May she and Norma broke into

[00:21:59] and vandalised the nursery in nearby Woodland Crescent the two entered the premises by peeling tiles off the slate roof they tore books, upturned desks and smeared ink and poster paints about the property before escaping and that's where it should end that is a fantastic childhood there

[00:22:19] breaking into a nursery, fucking ink all over the shop wreck the shop and get out we broke into our secondary school once did you strangle someone oh sorry mate so had the beans and went in there and it was there's a lot of teachers I didn't like

[00:22:35] but yeah so the following day staff discovered the breaking in vandalism and immediately notified the police who also discovered four separate no three separate notes there was four but one of them didn't make sense so I've left it out

[00:22:51] so there was four notes but one didn't even make sense and these notes stated we murdered so that I may come back another note read another note read spelling on him is terrible but yeah so the second note said

[00:23:09] we did murder Matt and Brown fuck off you bastard sorry that is not funny I should not laugh but it really caught me off guard a little bit there I know and then the third note simply wrote I like how it says simply

[00:23:23] fuck off we murder watch out Fanny and then I'm not going to say the other word but it is an f word to describe homosexual men this girl like I feel bless her she's been I say bless her shouldn't be saying bless her but how do you

[00:23:39] approach this situation because she has been through so much fucking shit and trauma it was inevitable that she was going to turn out the way she was they even go one or two ways like she did or they'll go into a job where they help

[00:23:53] people who are in the same situation as her it just it just right yeah that's all I got mate right Brian Howe so on the afternoon of July 31st 1968 a three year old named Brian Howe was last seen by his parents in the street outside

[00:24:13] his house playing with one of his siblings the family dog and Mary Belle and Norma Belle when he did not return home later that afternoon concerned relatives and the neighbours searched the streets without success fuck on Norma sorry I'm so sorry but she's there every time

[00:24:29] can you do me a favour and shut up for five minutes just before I get through this 10 past 11pm a search party discovered Brian's body between two large concrete blocks upon the tin lizzy the first policeman to arrive at the scene observed that a deliberate

[00:24:45] but feeble attempt had been made to conceal the body which was covered in clumps of grass and weeds synosis was evident upon the child's lips and several bruises and scratches were evident upon his neck a pair of broken scissors lay close to his feet the coroner would conclude

[00:25:03] that Brian died of strangulation and that he had been deceased for up to 7.5 hours before the discovery of his body the killer had evidently squeezed Brian's nostrils closed with one hand as he or she gripped his throat with the other numerous puncture wounds had been inflicted

[00:25:23] to the child's legs before death sections of his hair had been cut from his head his genitals had been partially mutilated and a crude attempt had been made to carve the initial M onto his stomach the relatively small amount of force used to murder the child

[00:25:41] led the coroner to conclude that the killer was another child numerous grey and maroon fibres were discovered upon Brian's clothes clothing and shoes these fibres did not source from any clothing within the household and had been transferred to the child by his killer or killers

[00:26:03] so that's all the killings mate you threw the rough stuff I've noticed some of it as well there's a bit of a pattern especially with that one I do not want to talk about what actually happened you've read it out, we know what happened

[00:26:17] but there was things done there that make me think she's going to look it's boys both times have been boys and even that original one where she first thing was a boy it's obviously the trauma that she's experienced growing up men assaulting what she did

[00:26:35] say that last one you just told me there as well again that's so he doesn't grow up mutilation bit so it doesn't grow up and become like that I get what you're saying you're probably onto some of that but there was the free girls

[00:26:49] and also she tried to strand girls well I think she just hates everyone at this point a man as well another female character that's supposed to be a role model who did nothing for her except torture so investigation and confessions so the discovery of Brian Howe's body

[00:27:05] sparked a large scale manhunt over 100 detectives from across Northumberland were assigned through the investigation and more than 1200 children had been questioned with regard to their whereabouts on the 2nd of August two children questioned by detectives on the 1st of August were Mary and Norma Bell

[00:27:25] who witnesses informed investigators had been seen playing with Brian shortly before he was believed to have died in her initial interview Norma seemed excitable whereas Mary was more observant although both girls were contradictory in their initial statements they freely admitted to having played with Brian

[00:27:47] on the day Tavis death but denied having seen him after lunchtime questioned further the following day Mary stated that she remembered seeing an 8 year old local boy playing with Brian on the afternoon of July 31st and that she had also seen him hitting the child furthermore she stated

[00:28:07] she also remembered that the boy had been covered in grass and weeds as if he had been rolling in a field and that he had in his possession a small pair of scissors Mary then expounded I saw him trying to cut off a cat's tail

[00:28:23] with the scissors but there was something wrong with them this self incriminating statement convinced DCI detective chief inspector James Dobson that Mary was the actual killer as only the police knew about the broken scissors found in the crime scene in addition the local boy she named

[00:28:39] was quickly questioned and was discovered to have been at Newcastle Newcastle Newcastle International Airport on the afternoon of July 31st with numerous witnesses able to cooperate his parents' claims so on the afternoon of August 4th the parents of Norma Bell contacted police stating their daughter wished to confess

[00:29:00] to what she knew about the death of Brian Howe DCI Dobson arrived at their home formally cautioned Norma and then asked what she knew Norma then informed Dobson Mary had taken her to a spot on the tin-lessy as he said tin-lessy at which point she had

[00:29:18] been shown Brian's body Mary had then demonstrated to her how she had strangled the child according to Norma Mary had confessed to her she had enjoyed strangling the child before describing how she inflicted the scar marks on her stomach with a razor blade

[00:29:34] so the razor blade had been hidden at the crime scene and the broken scissors Norma had led the police to the crime scene and revealed the location of the razor blade drawing Norma made of the wounds inflicted on the boy's abdomen precisely matched those described by the coroner

[00:29:52] Mary Bell was visited at her home in the early hours of August 5th on this occasion she was notably defensive when confronted with the discrepancies in her previous statement informing detectives you're trying to brainwash me I will get the solicitor to get me out of this

[00:30:08] How the fuck? What the fuck is a 10 year old saying that? How the hell is an 11 year old know to say that? That is absolutely bizarre as fuck 70s At this point nothing surprises me about the 70s That's what I've learnt

[00:30:22] So later the same day Norma was questioned again on this occasion she made a full statement in which she admitted being present when Mary had strangled Brian According to Norma when the trio were alone on the 10 Lizzy Mary seemed to go all funny

[00:30:36] pushing the child into the grass and attempting to strangle him before stating to her my hands are getting thick take over Exactly She had then run from the scene leaving Mary alone with Brian A forensic examination of the clothing owned by both girls revealed that the grey fibres

[00:30:56] discovered upon Brian's body were a precise match to a woollen dress owned by Mary The maroon fibres upon the child's shoes were a precise match to a skirt owned by Norma Furthermore the same grey fibres had also been found upon the body of Martin Brown

[00:31:14] So that's what links them both together that's what links them to both the murders Yeah, that's all that coming Right then mate so charges and evaluations So Brian Howe was buried in a local cemetery on the 7th of August 1968 in a ceremony attended by over 200 people

[00:31:30] Yeah God rest his soul According to DCI Dobson who had planned to arrest both girls later that day and this bit is the This is the really fucked up mate Mary Bell stood outside the Howe household as the child's coffin was brought from the home

[00:31:46] at the beginning of the funeral procession Dobson later stated she stood there laughing laughing and rubbing her hands together Mad I thought my god I've got to bring her in she'll do another one It just gives me like a sort of Yeah, you know what I mean

[00:32:07] Fucking crazy innit Exactly so both girls were formally charged with the murder of Brian Howe at 8pm that evening In response to this charge Mary replied that's all right by me Norma burst into tears simply proclaiming I never I'll pay you back for this

[00:32:25] Whatever the hell that means Pay what? That's just the quote that she said Okay Exactly So in the presence of an independent witness Mary prepared a written statement in which she admitted to be in present when Brian Howe was murdered but insisting that the murder had been

[00:32:45] committed by Norma She also admitted that she and Norma had broken into the Woodland Crescent Nursery the day after the killing of Martin Brown Defacing the property before the two had written the 400 notes Shortly after their arrest both girls underwent psychological evaluations

[00:33:07] The results of these tests revealed that Norma was intellectually delayed and a submissive character who was easily displayed in motion Whereas Mary was a bright yet cunning character prone to sudden move swings occasionally Mary was willing to talk although she rapidly became a sullum introspective

[00:33:27] and defensive in nature So basically Norma obviously after that she'd been evaluating as learning difficulties basically So yeah Her character to examine Mary concluded that although not suffering from a mental disorder she suffered from a psychopathic personality disorder In his official report compiled for the

[00:33:53] director of public prosecutions David Westbury concluded Mary's social techniques are primitive and take the form of automatic denial manipulation, complaining, bullying fight or violence Makes sense Right and so convictions and release So this is the last bit I've got for you mate So

[00:34:15] The trial lasted for nine days on September 17th the jury retired to consider their verdict and would deliver it for three hours and 25 minutes before reaching their verdicts Mary Bell was cleared of murder but convicted of manslaughter of both boys on the grounds of demonstrability and Norma Bell

[00:34:35] was acquitted of all the charges Upon hearing the jury's verdict Norma clapped her hands in excitement whereas Mary burst into tears as her mother and grandmother also wept What the fuck is Norma clapping for? Well because she's been let off but also quite clearly she's not intellectually delayed

[00:34:55] even though she's 13 mentally wise she's probably about 7 or 8 So obviously I'm guessing there I don't have to offend anybody Yeah, yeah so it's hard for me to kind of grasp that because I still I understand that that she's got obviously a disorder that makes her brain

[00:35:15] work at a younger age basically not as mature as she should be for age but she was still there she was probably still involved Well possibly, possibly That quit is not enough for me Well and that's the grey area in this case I think really isn't it?

[00:35:35] Definitely, definitely I think Mary as well yeah traumatic distress and all that there's been for a long life will have caused many things but Does it mean you go around killing kids? No, exactly And the fact that it blows my mind to this day when you still see

[00:35:53] like the mental health charges they'll be put in a hospital instead of where they actually belong on certain cases obviously there are other cases there's sort of wrong You can quite clearly see this guy as a serious disability or something he needs to be put in a home

[00:36:09] but then there's ones like that Yeah exactly So to finish off mate so passing sentence Mr Justice Kusak described Belle as a dangerous individual adding that she posed a very grave risk to other children and that steps must be taken to protect the public from her

[00:36:29] She was sentenced to be detained at Her Majesty's pleasure effectively an indefinite sentence of imprisonment At the time of Belle's manslaughter convictions she was aged 11 and 6 months making her Britain's youngest female killer a statistic which remains to the present day Belle was released from HM prison Ascombe Grange

[00:36:53] in May 1980 at the age of 23 I don't think that's it I'm sure he is young what we've talked about earlier what the names Bastards Liverpool Female killer Sorry that's my fault I missed that So Belle was released from HM prison Ascombe Grange in May 1980 at the age of 23

[00:37:19] having served almost 11 and half years in custody She was granted animitony Is that what you say? I'm in it. I'm in it. Oh God. I'm in it. So that included a new name allowing her to start a new life elsewhere in the country under the assumed identity

[00:37:39] Upon her release a spokesman is quoted as saying Belle wishes to be given a chance to live a normal life and to be left in law She was in Ladswood as well but we can't know what we want So Belle was released from custody on the 25th May 1984

[00:37:57] Belle gave birth to a daughter Christ take that f***ing baby away This would prove to be her only child Her daughter knew nothing of her mother's past until 1998 when reporters discovered Belle's then current location in a resort town on the Sussex coastline where both had been living

[00:38:15] for approximately 18 months This media revelation forced Belle and her 14 year old daughter to leave their home and return to a safe house by undercover officers both mother and daughter later relocated to another part of the United Kingdom Belle has allegedly returned to townside on several occasions

[00:38:33] in the years following her release She is also alleged to have lived in this location for a time So yeah, back to it Mary Belle, the UK's youngest female killer She'll still be alive now won't she Yeah, I think she's about 66 years old now F***ing hell

[00:38:51] F***ing hell That's uh... That's scary innit? I think that's as... not as sick but it's right up there with a grey man and I've really struggled with that one Yeah, we both struggle getting through that one Yeah, yeah Anything to do with kids may

[00:39:11] really fucks me up especially when you're under the age well any age of course but you know 10 and under is just and when you get to those lower ages like 2, 3, 4, 5 it's just I don't know mate It was as if

[00:39:27] it was written in stone that's how it was going to work out She was going to go one of two ways and unfortunately she went She was never going to have a normal life No, no Well, there was the...

[00:39:39] because you do see some cases where they'll grow up and they'll help people who are in that situation I mean it was never going to be a that's not a normal life because of what she'd already been through but there's either that way

[00:39:49] or there's the way that unfortunately she went down Yeah, something horrible in this She had no... there was no one in her life that you know to look up to to think that actually... The thing is though, it's like you say obviously

[00:40:03] a mother never wanted it and like a mother's family offered to take her from it and she refused and I just don't understand if she didn't want it that much then why refuse and is sick and is fucking nasty and horrible and cruel as it sounds

[00:40:19] Well, call it work You're probably right there actually No, you've said that, yeah In mum's mind and it's absolutely sick that's why because all these my brains really fucked her I think it's a bit like yours in some sense

[00:40:33] things are the worst and it puts the dots together Yeah, right and I think we'll leave it for them for that one Yeah, yeah, yeah Right, that's all for us for this week guys So obviously make sure you follow the socials The main one is the Instagram AtletzUnderscore

[00:40:49] Talk about pod, go follow us over there you'll find all the links to all the other socials MerchStars, Patreon page And also before we go enough of a reminder that we want to hear from you lot Obviously we want your scary paranormal experiences

[00:41:01] Get him sent into us for the Halloween specials Absolutely, videos and everything guys Exactly, just get him sent out away So until next week, say Lang 뭔가 like this Take care guys